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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis Phony/Non-Cures 3

Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts, Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic Disease, Quarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes,

Related FAQs: Phony Cures & Ones That Just Don't Work 1, Bunk Crypt Non-Cures 2, Bunk Crypt Non-Cures 4, & Best Crypt FAQs, Crypt FAQs 1, Crypt FAQs 2, Crypt FAQs 3, Crypt FAQs 4, Crypt FAQs 5, Crypt FAQs 6, Crypt FAQs 7, Crypt FAQs 8, Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14, Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17, Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 23, Crypt FAQs 24, & FAQs on Crypt: Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Cures That Do Work, Hyposalinity & Ich, & Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine Velvet Disease, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Best Quarantine FAQs, Quarantine 1, Quarantine 2, Quarantine 3, Quarantine 4, Quarantine 5, Quarantine 6, Quarantine 7, Quarantine 8, Quarantine 9, Quarantine 10, Quarantine 11, Quarantine 12, Quarantining Invertebrates,

Re Nitrate up pH down James Please Help/Nitrate Control 4/16/12
<Hello Jim>
 Sorry about my breakdown a few days ago.
<No problem and quite understandable.  I've been through a few wipeouts in my early years in the hobby and I know the feeling but  never gave up, just learned as much as I could but unfortunately information wasn't as readily available as it is now.  The few books available then were primitive compared to today.>
I saw a new episode of Tanked and it made realize that I am obsessed with the hobby and I will never be able to quit it. The money part about loosing these animals is not the part that hurts. It is more like loosing Family member. I have kids and all the fish are named.  Something crazy happened in my quarantine tank. I went down Saturday afternoon to check on my tank. Two angels were dead and everybody was laying on the bottom breathing really heavy. All there eyes were clouded over its was a bad scene. Before I did a water change I check all levels in the tank. nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia. Were all at zero. S.g. 1.023 temp 74. The day before that I moved The Annularis down stairs to the quarantine tank because he was covered with ick and was not going to treat my main tank.  All the fish were fine a few Ick spots here and there. I decided to treat the ick in the tank. I have two Wal-Mart back filters on the tank and airstone. I pulled filter cartridges with carbon out and replaced them with Aquarel filter fiber. I had a lion fish down in there and did want to use copper so I used Kordon ick attack.
<Worthless in my opinion.>
Did everything by directions turned lights off and walked away. The next day is when I found the angels dead. So after pulling the Angels out I did a 25% water change and added carbon. I was thinking maybe the ick attack poisoned them.
<Unlikely, it's makeup is organic herbs.><<RMF disagrees>>

 That night everybody was swimming around still seemed a little stress, but seemed to be getting better. Yesterday same scene. Foxface, and Sixline wrasse dead. Small porcupine puffer, clown trigger, lion fish, and small tusk. Were laying on the bottom eyes clouded over all ready to die.
<I believe an ammonia spike is what killed them.>
I moved them upstairs and they were all dead by this morning. Yellow tang died in main tank today too. I have a small majestic angel in my main tank, and purple tang that is looking pretty bad now. My blue face angel and Tusk are stressing, but are still eating. My blonde Naso, Picasso trigger, clown fish, green Chromis, blue jaw trigger, and starry blenny all to seem stress free. I have somebody coming bye to test my water today. If my water is fine then I am starting to wonder if my ro-di system is the cause. The filters are a little dirty, but seem to be fine.
<The only sure way to tell is with a TDS meter and they are very inexpensive, Mmm like around 20 bucks at Premium Aquatics.>
I am all out of Ideas, and afraid to do a water change.
<You need to slow down and regroup.  James (Salty Dog)>

Allicin (Diallyl thiosulphate) 4/1/12
Hi Crew, Yes the dreaded Ich problem. Has there been any trials of either placing crushed garlic in a sock, or similar and leaving it floating in a tank for several hours and changing it everyday, or prepared Allicin to add to a tank?
<To be clear, there is no evidence that Garlic (Allicin) has any effect on the parasite Cryptocaryon (Marine Ich). The only anecdotal evidence is that the garlic acts as an appetite stimulant which helps a fish that is otherwise stressed out to feed better and in theory, help it fight off the parasite better. Again, there is no evidence to support this, just a hope. There are only 3 ways to deal with this parasite and all take place in a QT tank. Copper Treatment, Hypo salinity, and the tank transfer method. Please search WWM for details about each.>
Do you think the first suggestion could harm my reef tank even if it does not help with the Ich?
<No harm other than unnecessary nutrients and the fact that your water may smell like garlic....;)>
Regards, Adam.
Re: Allicin (Diallyl thiosulphate) 4/2/12

Hi Crew, Thanks for your reply. If I calculate the rate of flow and have good water movement throughout the tank and I have read up online what are the most effective UV's how much success is there in keeping the Ich under control.
<UV's are only good to the extent that every individual free swimming parasite actually goes through the UV with the proper dwell time. They may help in keeping a massive outbreak from happening, but again, they will not eradicate the parasite from your system and cure your fish. Please see my prior response surrounding the only three ways to resolve your Ich
Regards, Adam.
Ich. Garlic 4/2/12

Hi Crew, I have a 5 inch Regal Angel, Copperband Butterfly, 11/2 inch Emperor Angel, 2 Ocellaris clowns and a Purple Tang. Two days ago the Purple Tang (having thinner mucus) had about within 24 hours ten white spots, which spread to the other fish except the clowns. Being a reef tank my options were limited so I soaked live brine shrimp in freshly cut garlic
<Of no use whatsoever...>

for 15 min.s and feed them for the last two days. All spots are gone, even on the Purple Tang.
<Nah... just cycled off...>

I know I am not out of the woods yet but as there are no spots even on the tang as the life cycle is not always in sync I hope the smell of the garlic has confused the Ich to find it's host. Will keep you updated but I do think there is something in the garlic theory. Here is an interesting article from over ten years ago -
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html Regards, Adam.
<No sale. I'd be reading... Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich. 4/3/12

Bob, I tend to suspect you are right, however if this is the case surely everyday a few white spots would appear as the life cycle is not in perfect harmony?
<Mmm, no; most cases start, express themselves in a synchronous fashion at first...>
Today Tuesday there is not a spot in sight. At 26C how long until the next wave of infection?
<Three-four days... I'd be reading on WWM, and acting... start here:
and the linked files above. BobF>
Regards, Adam.
FAO Bob Fenner. Cryptocaryon update, garlic 3/4/12

Hi Bob, As for you readers I write with an update..
<Ah good>
I write not to provoke an argument as I am sure you see more Ich comments than I do, however as you know I run a reef tank that did have Ich but I left it fallow for nearly four weeks at around 30C as higher temps speed up the life cycle. Five days ago I added fish, perhaps I should have set up a QT tank but had two small clown fish in the tank for a few days and they were fine. I appreciate there is a risk of transfer with the new fish but took the chance. My small Emperor Angel, Purple Tang, Regal Tang are still Ich free and eating but my Copperband has a few spots on him today perhaps as he is the only fish who did not eat the garlic soaked food, all the other fish ate garlic soaked I've brine shrimp. I did source some live brine shrimp but sadly cannot source anymore so I am feeding Mysis with the hope of getting them onto New Life Finicky Fish Formula, which the Emperor and Purple Tang already eat. Again, the only fish to get Ich is the Copperband who is not eating the garlic soaked Mysis. There has to be some correlation to garlic.
<Superficially perhaps>
I cut about four/five slices of garlic and leave with the food for around 15 min.s in about 1cm of bottled drinking water before feeding. Surely the Purple Tang is normally 10 times or more susceptible. I would at this stage have to put the non transfer of Ich to the other fish down to the garlic.
<... anecdotal>
I feed them about 4 times a day. I freshwater dipped my Copperband for 7 min.s and about 90% of the spots are gone. I hope to maintain this process until the fish become immune or I can kill enough of the (pregnant) Whitespot off by daily freshwater baths as the spots are 100's of babies about to enter the tank. The problem I now have is that the Copperband will only eat brine which I cannot source. I hope that when he sees the other fish eating Mysis he will adapt. I felt cautious about buying him as I know they are difficult to get to eat. My tank water is fine sourced from the tropical Indian Ocean I am sure if not the Regal would be in trouble.
Regards, Adam.
Luck is with me. More Crypt 3/4/12

Hi Crew, I could only source frozen bloodworm as I live in an island in the Indian Ocean as an alternative to Mysis that all the other fish ate except the Copperband and all the other fish chewed on it but spat it out. The Copperband loved it, perhaps not ideal nutrition for him but should give me some time to acclimatise him on to other foods. The white spots have all gone I trust from the long freshwater dip, would they normally stay attached for more than approx 12 hours, I would have thought 2-3 days? I am going out for a drink now, marine fish keeping is a challenge but I have been doing so for over 30 years and still love it. Regards, Adam.
<And you, BobF>
Re Ich Battle. 4/6/12

Hi Bob, I understood that all Tangs are much more susceptible to Ich.
<Mmm, some in particular... Acanthurus achilles, A. leucosternon, A. glaucopareius...>
Tonight all my fish except the Copperband and the Regal Tang are spotless.
Do you think they have built immunity from the sea?
I have freshwater dipped the Copperband and Regal for 7 min.s and the spots are gone from the Copperband, the Regal still has a few but these were only on his tail fin and are not like grains so maybe another infection.
<Mmm, you'd do well to get/use an inexpensive 'scope... the QX series is what I use/endorse nowayears... and borrow a copy of either edition of Ed Noga's Fish Disease book... learn to make samples... ID...>
I would like to ask two questions. If the infection only attacks the Copperband and I freshwater dip him everyday do you think that will eventually break the life cycle of the Ich as the grains of Ich only appear on him at dusk and if I catch them quickly they do not seem to have time to dig into to his skin as they are gone after the freshwater dip.
<Mmm, no... the vast likelihood is that the specimen will instead die from handling, osmotic shock>
My second question although I am happy this is the case why do you think my Purple Tang is spotless? Regards, Adam.
<The spots... are only symptomatic... the host fish's reaction... the actual parasite is too small to see... Your fishes may be infested. BobF>

RXP, worthless 4/7/12

Hi, I was trying to find information on RX-P and read the article below.
<See my/the archived comments on WWM re this scam. B>
Surely by adding water from the main tank you would be re-infecting the QT tank? Re: RXP Bob, You have won me on quarantine tanks. I have managed to borrow a 15g tank that now houses my lion while I am dosing with RXP. <Ah, good on the quarantine> I might even set it up in the kids room with a BioWheel or something similar. Would this tank handle say 2 Chromis and a damsel and the occasional new fish on quarantine duty, <Yes, but not with the Lionfish present if it can swallow same...> what about sand on the bottom. <Not unless the animals involved require it... better to use the BioWheel, and periodic water changes from your main system to return water quality to center... If sand, live rock are needed, better to place them in a glass dish (like for burrowing wrasses let's say), to facilitate removal... otherwise these materials change water chemistry, absorb medications> Also have you any thoughts on vitamin c for Ich control.
<Doesn't work...> And how long should a new fish spend in the q tank <Depends on species, condition... Take a look (again) at quarantine, acclimation materials posted on site: Home Page > and is necessary to dose with copper every time a new fish goes in there. <Once again, this depends on the species involved and their apparent health... in general, no... I would freshwater, pH adjusted dip new fishes... then place them in quarantine for observation and "hardening" for the desired/requisite period of time, and engage copper treatments (probably needing to be tested and re-applied daily...> Cheers, Scott
Ich. Ongoing Crypt non-cures 4/8/12

Hi Bob, Having observed my various marine fish contract Ich all except my clownfish who I presume has a thicker mucus covering to protect him from the anemone and to his advantage Ich.
<There are speculations re, yes>
Most methods seems to focus on killing the Ich directly in it's free swimming stage, however has there been any focus on trying to get a chemical to stimulate more fish mucus production to provide a barrier to stop the Ich being able to reach the fishes body.
<There has>
If this could be achieved then the life cycle of the Ich could be broken and the fish would survive. Regards, Adam.
<Yes. B>
50/50 Ich 4/8/12

Crew, I know what you think of RX-P but here is my situation. Following on from earlier emails all my fish were covered in spots yesterday and I dosed at 1/4 recommended dose to observe fish up to the recommended dose in stages of a couple of hours each dose, therefore over 8 hours or so. Last night I feared the worse having seen Ich wipe out a tank in 24 hours after the swarming spots. Tonight my Copperband is free from spots, all fish are eating, Porcupine Puffer fins still covered, Purple Tang less spots, Regal Angel no spots also the small Emperor who has a few spots and is blotchy is cleaning" the Regal.. The ocellaris clown still not affected. I have NOT been using a skimmer as I thought if there is an adverse reaction I can go to the beach and change the water. I have just dosed at half dose again, so I am exceeding the recommended timing, corals, starfish, anemone is fine so far. I know this might be a life cycle event where things look better before they get worse but every other time I fish have had Ich (I have been keeping marines 30 years) they have nearly all died. Today they are ALL alive actively swimming and eating. I am also feeding Mysis and bloodworm soaked for 15 min.s in freshly cut garlic. Regards, Adam.
<... rarely cures... Am accruing your observations. B>
Re: Ich. Re RXP I take it 4/9/12

Has anyone succeeded yet?
<None that I know of w/ this product. B>

Re: Ich. RXP scam 4/10/12

Hi Crew, Ich update - all fish still alive and eating. The Ich has decreased there are very few white spots, even the Tang is clear. However there is to various degrees blotches on the bodies and fins which I suspect is extra mucus and still some Ich and a response from the fish to the invaders but very few seems to produce white spots. Yesterday I dosed RX-P at 75% of the stated dose as I am not running a skimmer. I am cautious to dose again as it states that it can kill if overdosed. I have decided as the disease seems under control not to take the risk of adding more RX-P unless the symptoms get worse. I am going to try and speak with the manufacturer today. I believe that if I had not added RX-P by now all my fish would have been dead. The tang at his worse was covered with 50+ white spots and now has none. Also none of the fish are breathing fast which is normally the near terminal stage of Ich. In addition the fact that they are all eating shows they feel relatively happy. They are active which as we now is not the case with Ich at the advanced stage they become lethargic.
My inverts, hard coral, anemone and starfish are all ok. I hope this helps some of you out there but please read my earlier comments about increasing the dose over time and I am lucky as I live right next to the Indian ocean so have a quick water change option if needed. I would only do what I did if I had this option ready. Regards, Adam.
<I will not endorse any so-called "reef safe" remedy that doesn't have scientific proof of efficacy... pepper... a scam. B>

Re: Ich. 4/11/12

Hi Crew, My purpose of my emails is not to get your approval, although it would be good, but to let people have a chance of saving their fish.
<... my same purpose... on WWM... the last seventeen years; books and articles I've penned... including warning people of product scams>
If RX-P is dosed as I have said in my previous emails I think my fish have survived because of it.
<... Adam, you have no "controls" in this experiment... What if you'd done all but added the Kent product and got the same or even better results?>
Pepper, if it increases the mucus on the fish provides a barrier. There is no way delicate fish like a Regal Angel, Copperband Butterfly and as all tangs have low mucus for the sake of Ich susceptibility a Purple Tang would have survived this long. I will wait for two weeks and then do a large water change and see if the cycle has been broken. If not I will start the process again. I am not dosing anymore as the fish seem to be clear of white spots and have a misty appearance from the mucus. Kent, the manufacturer told me that the product does not decrease in strength without a protein skimmer or carbon <?> so I think I have the right level. I hope you are placing this and my other emails on your site. Regards, Adam.
<Search and see. B>

Oodinium and Crypt. Ongoing... .    4/17/12

Hi, Am I correct that the best way for tackling these pests in a reef tank is to leave the tank with no fish for about six weeks? If I raise the tank temperature can this time be shortened. How reliable is leaving a tank like this? Regards, Adam Aarons.
<All gone over on WWM... please stop writing and start using your time reading instead. BobF>

Brooklynella or not? 11/6/11
Hello there,
This is my first time contacting you and I am asking for some simple advice.
<You are a stranger here but once>
I have recently lost 5 fish, Dottyback, chromis, male saddleback, rusty angel and powder blue tang very quickly. I still have a very small valentini, a chromis, and the female saddleback. She stopped feeding for a day and he eyes seemed to gloss over. She started breathing very fast and occasionally flicking herself against the back. Her white stripe at the front began to look as though the black was wry slightly coming through.
This was five days ago and she has got no worse and is feeding well there is no sign of mucus etc. The other two fish are apparently fine and look great and feeding well. My local fish store told me its Brooklynella but I'm not convinced somehow. His suggestion was to treat the whole tank with an nt labs prep
<Who, what company is this?>
for a month and then begin to restock. He also suggested that the best thing to do with then clown was to kill it.
<? No...>
I didn't want to do it. I have an old tropical tank I could uses as a qt tank but just don't know what to do for the best.
Please advise. Many thanks
<Need more information, photos if you have them... well-resolved. Have you read on WWM re this Protozoan, Crypt? Do so, ASAP. Bob Fenner>
Re: Brooklynella or not? 11/7/11

Thanks so much for getting back to me.
Here is a photo though it is not as clear as I would like it:
<Mmm; this does "look" more like Cryptocaryon to me... and judging from the other fishes you previously listed as afflicted...>
5 days ago I treated the tank with:
<... anti-bacterial? Can be used for treating (Amyl)Oodinium? "Reef safe?". Don't list ingredients... Nah! No sale!>
When this runs it's course (another 5 days) my local shop wants me o then use this for a month though it isn't reef / invert safe
: http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/products/Anti%252dParasite-Treatment.html
<Forget this as well. READ re the use of Quinine compounds, here:
and the linked files above, AND: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinMedF2.htm
and the linked files above>
I have read so much from everywhere that I'm totally confused!
<... read for clarity. Facts, history of knowledge... Skip the garbage>
Thanks so much for taking time with me.
I love my tank (it's only a red sea max 130) but it has given me years of pleasure.
<And you, Bob Fenner>

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