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New products      3/5/17
Hello WWM Crew,
I'm wondering if anybody at WWM has heard of or has any experience with a new product line called Aquaforest.
<Oh yes; and not all that new; started back in 1995 in Poland:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/aquaforest-chemicals-now-available-in-the-usa-through-deepwater-aquatics >
My two lfs are pushing these products and I'd like to get some non bias information before I try any of these products. Keep up the great work.
<These are REAL products; and though a bit pricey for some facets, do the jobs they state they do>
Thanks in advance
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Mail, LFS acronym def.  2/16/11
<... Bill, this is all posted on WWM... Learn to/use the search tool, indices. Livestock Fish Store. B>
Here all this time I thought it meant Local Fish Store. Hah!
<Can/does to some folks James. But in later years, the term is better linked to outfits that actually sell life as well as Drygoods. B>

Marine fish Exporter in Cebu   8/24/10
> Bob
<Hey Per!>
> Just came back from a trip to Cebu. Managed to dive at this spot near Nalusuan island. When I saw fishermen rounding up fish at the edge of the marine sanctuary I told myself not to expect too much. But to my surprise I saw lots of Groupers about 1 and a half feet long swimming all over the reef!!
I got another big surprise at lunch when the boatman strapped on the scuba and came back later with a bag of Urchins!! Never thought I would have Uni and rice for lunch!!
<And fresh!>
Third surprise of the day awaited me on shore. Right next to the dive shop was a Marine fish exporter!!It is called Cebu Mactan Quality Marine Aquarium Fish or CMQMAF for short. An Aussie by the name of Peter runs this place. According to him business is getting tougher. Too many fish suppliers!! But he is doing alright as he supplies to TMC and Quality Marine.
<The two best marine livestock wholesale distributors on the planet>
It was an interesting conversation and there are stuff I will not put in this mail. Next time we meet up I will continue on this subject.
<Ah good>>
> I did not know you can find Flame Angels in the Philippines
<Oh yes... the cheapest source, though not the best>
<BobF, who wonders if you'd like to spend the big money diving on the Nai'a in Fiji late October>

Coral Listing Extension... Participating in our so-called system of self-governance   -4/6/10
In case you haven't seen it, Marshall Meyers of PIJAC has sent out the urgent message below concerning comments being due on a petition to list 82 species of stony corals as endangered.
Meyers and others say that this move could bring on a bureaucratic nightmare of rules for all stony corals, including wild-collected, maricultured, and any shipped across state lines in the US.
He says more comments are needed if this is going to be stopped, and he wants serious parties to request an extension for filing comments.
James M. Lawrence
Editor & Publisher
CORAL Magazine
Thank you James. Will post/share on WWM. BobF
Coral Listing Extension
Send extension request to both BY FAX due to time constraints. REQUEST 90-DAY EXTENSION AND EXPECT IF GRANTED LESS THAN 90 DAYS.
Provide brief description of you activity and why important to have extension, such as reviewing and analyzing quality of data in submission for each of the 83 species. Many range states appear to have kn knowledge of this petition and important for them to have adequate notice and time to respond. Point out that nothing so urgent that requires immediate listing and NMFS needs to have best available data before making a listing.
People should fire off letters NOW (and get foreign people to do this especially any foreign governments you can entice into sending letter).
Letters should be addressed to both offices (one does Pacific the other Atlantic)
Assistant Regional Administrator,
Protected Resources Division, NMFS,
Pacific Islands Regional Office
1601 Kapiolani Blvd.
Suite 1110
Honolulu, HI 96814
Fax: 907-586-7012
Assistant Regional Administrator,
Protected Resources Division, NMFS
Southeast Regional Office
263 13th Avenue
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
Fax: 727-824-5309

~ ULTRA CORAL UPDATE ~ San Diego, CA source  3/19/10
*Hey Everyone,
Just received several ultra shipments of corals.
Check them out here: http://aquasd.com/index.php?location=livestock
Any questions, please feel free to give us a call or an email.
Thank you,
Aqua SD
<Hotay! BobF>

R(E)-tailer in Germany -- 03/05/10
Hey guys,
<Hi Craig.>
I've recently relocated to Frankfurt Germany, and I would like to re-start my marine hobby with a Nano. I've been unable to locate a decent retailer, or e-tailer. The live rock at the local Big Al's equivalent looked like brown concrete, at 12 Euros a kilo!
<Mmh... live rock prices... welcome back to Germany.>
Could you recommend a quality dealer near Frankfurt, or a good e-tailer?
<You may want to try http://www.qfi-marineshop.de ; it's in Dietzenbach, not far from the airport. Originally an importer/wholesaler, but since about 1.5 years also selling to common customers every 1. Saturday morning each month (that's tomorrow!). If you want to visit at another time, you'll have to give them a call first. http://www.seewasserparadies.com/main.htm in Stockstadt (ca. 30-40 min. from Frankfurt) is also mostly worth a visit. With regard to e-tailers, there is Nautilus Aquaristik http://www.nautilus-aquaristik.de/ . You can ask them at which dates their imports in Frankfurt arrive and arrange a meeting in Frankfurt to get rock or animals almost directly from the plane. You can also order cured rocks and settled-in animals at decent prices (but they won't import any morays...).>
Thanks! Craig
<Cheers, Marco.>  

On-Line Fish Etailers 1/24/10
Are there any online fish stores where I can order fish, décor, etc... that ships to British Columbia, Canada?
<I'm sure there are; you can Google, locate etailers near you, (Seattle, etc.) then email them asking this. You could also email the Greater Seattle Aquarium Society and ask this question.
Go here. http://www.gsas.org/
James (Salty Dog)>

Online Fish Buying -- 12/17/09
<<Hey Jeff>>
I was wondering if you know anything about some of these online fish stores.
<<Have ordered from a couple>>
One in particular is selling fish at ridiculously low prices (maybe wholesale pricing).
<<Maybe so'¦but it should state on the site whether they sell to the public, or are wholesale only>>
I happened to be researching Lemonpeel angels and ran across freshmarine.com and they're selling Lemonpeels for roughly $25 plus whatever they charge for UPS shipping.
<<Actually, this is not a particularly 'low' online price for this fish. LiveAquaria.com, whom I have dealt with in the past with good results, has small individuals for $26.99'¦and other etailers have them at comparable prices too>>
Could this possibly be a good place to buy fish?
<<I'm afraid I'm not familiar with freshmarine.com>>
Wondering what you've heard about having fish flown in to me/go to UPS location for delivery.
<<This is how I usually do it'¦works very well as it saves the livestock the drive around in the truck which depending on where you are on the route can be a considerable amount of time>>
Thanks for any insight or comments you may have.
<<Fresh Marine may well be a fine source for online fish'¦but for those rare occasions when I don't have the LFS order my livestock, 'my' first picks would be LiveAquaria or PetSolutions>>
Happy Holidays,
<<And to you my friend'¦ EricR>>

Blue Zoo Aquatics   12/10/08 Hi there my Saltwater Gurus! <Hello there Deb!> This isn't really fish related (sort of is as they sell fish) but do you (or anyone at Wet Web Media) know what happened to Blue Zoo Aquatics in Carson, CA? <?! As far as I know... knew, they're still there... I met with the owner/manager along with now independent Ret Talbot a few months back (for a fab dinner in Laguna Beach... to talk re the industry, my help in editing their  re-do of a marine book)> I have tried numerous times to access their website over the last week with no luck and I have tried emailing Mike and calling Mark and I can't seem to talk to anyone (machine answers the phone and asks for an extension, but then just lingers and I never get connected). <Yikes!> Is their website just down or are they dealing with some other issue (equipment failure, etc.)? I order fish from them on a somewhat regular basis (they have a great selection of quality fish) and I got an email just over a week ago about a sale on certain fish (as I usually do) and when I tried to get to their website a few days later, I couldn't. I tried from different computers and even had a couple of friends try it. So, I started emailing yesterday and also calling. Can someone enlighten me? Thanks for your help! Debbie Terry <Yowzah! I just tried searching for their site... contact URL... Nada... Will Bcc RetT here and ask re... hope to post something useful. Bob Fenner> <<Have "heard" back from Ret a couple times... he is having Mark send over a "for public" statement maybe by days end. B>>

Re: Blue Zoo Aquatics  12/16/08 Hi Bob, I don't mean to bother you again, but I never heard anything from Blue Zoo and I checked your FAQ's for the last few days for an update, but I haven't seen anything. I am assuming by "for public statement" that it isn't good news, but I was hoping they might be back in the near future? Thanks, Debbie Terry <Have heard from "them"... they're soon to re-launch... bigger, better than ever. BobF> Re: Blue Zoo Aquatics Hi Bob, Please disregard that last email. I just had one come through from Mike of Blue Zoo with an explanation. Thanks for your help - and I am looking forward to doing business with them again soon! <Ahh, real good. Am given to understand that Blue Zoo is really making some light-year improvements to their business! I look forward to seeing it renewed! BobF>

Blue Zoo Aquatics Stmt.  12/17/08 Hola, My Friend. <Ret> I trust you are well. The snow in the mountains is making Southern California oh so seasonable, wouldn't you say? <What bunk weather! Wish we were out in the tropics> Here is the long awaited Blue Zoo Aquatics release. Feel free to post it. <Ah, will do> As you may know, traditionally Blue Zoo Aquatics has slowed or even shut down certain aspects of its business during portions of December to allow for employee vacations and because December is, in general, a bad time for shipping live animals (in fact FedEx-our exclusive shipper-stops shipping live animals to some parts of the country). This year, we have taken this natural pause in our business cycle as an opportunity to temporarily shut down the external side of the business in order to make some internal changes. Blue Zoo Aquatics, like everyone in the marine aquarium industry, is working hard to find the best way to bring quality, sustainably-collected marine animals to the marketplace given the current economic challenges. Toward that end, we have made the choice this December to implement some major changes to the website and our business model in order that we might serve our loyal customers better in the weeks and months to come. What does that mean for our customers? It means, as you may have discovered, we pulled the website down, and we are not mailing out announcements of any promotions or other information at this time. Why? We want to focus 100% of our energy on making the very best in-house changes so we can hit the ground running with new customer-requested features and services when the time is right. When will that be? We're not prepared to put a firm date on our re-launch at this time, but if you are on our mailing list, you will be amongst the first to know. Rest assured, all of our changes will be completed by the end of December at the latest. We apologize for any inconveniences, but do stay-tuned. Blue Zoo Aquatics is committed to continuing to pioneer online sales of sustainably-collected, quality marine fishes, corals and other invertebrates. We will be back shortly with more healthy livestock, new features, great prices, and loads of free educational material to make your hobby, the industry and the ecosystems the best they can be. Until then, Happy Holidays and Happy Reefing. Let me know if you have any questions. Between you and me, the site may be back up by the end of the week. If that happens, I'll get another release to you right away. All the best to you and your wife! Ret Talbot <Mmm, will leave off your website name and blog announcement, unless you state you want these posted. BobF>

John Dory, search for specimens...    7/23/08 Hello Bob!! <Hey Robert!> It has been a while!! I am still plugging away in this wonderful industry!! I really shouldn't complain, there are so many things I love about it- if I could just do it without customers!! <Heeee! A common refrain> Anyway, I thought I would attempt to tap into that vast knowledge of yours. I have a fun project in Manhattan where we are putting in 2 36' diameter spherical aquariums 12' above the sidewalk (outdoors!!). The project is for a restaurant where there will also be a 1,000-gallon tank behind a bar. These are the fun projects!! <Yes!> The name of the restaurant is the 'John Dory'- a popular food fish (never had one, so I cannot comment on the choice of names for the restaurant). <And a very interesting looking species as well> In the bar aquarium they would like to have a school of John Dorys as it is their logo, etc. I have been hunting for them for the last 3 months through livestock vendors and transhippers, but to no avail! My customer is getting anxious, so I thought of you! <Mmm, thank you... Going to be a tough one I'm afraid... I would call on any relations you have with public aquariums... Likely Joe Yaiullo at Atlantis Aquarium on Long Island... perhaps the New York Aquarium... for whom they may know who might be able to supply, or help you find a supplier... of which species: http://fishbase.org/ComNames/CommonNameSearchList.php Hopefully there is a fisher connection somewhere that can help with expediting not too damaged wild-caught specimens...>> I can find them available frozen, but not alive! I imagine they would never be a very popular fish for keeping in home aquaria, but I believe that from the research that I have done they are popular in public aquarius, etc. <Yes... Have seen them... just need to make contact...> I know you have a lot of contacts in the public aquarium industry, and would love to know if anybody you know might be able to source this fish for me? <Try the above. Say hello for me to JoeY> There are details below on the fish. Anything you can do, or direction you can point me in would be much appreciated. Thanks Bob, and I guess we'll see you at MACNA if not sooner! All the best, Rob <Look fwd to seeing, chatting with you in Atlanta. BobF> Robert A. Bray President House of Fins 99 & 209 Bruce Park Avenue Greenwich, CT 06830 www.houseoffins.com

Re: John Dory Thanks Bob, I will call Joe- that is a great idea (right in my backyard, the last one I would have thought of!!). Thanks Bob. See you soon! <Oh yes! BobF> Rob

Buying Saltwater Fish Online...Is It Worth It? - 07/22/08 *If you don't have time to respond to this, please at least point me in the right direction*. <<it is our policy to respond to "all" queries>> Hi, <<Nick>> I've been looking for a cheaper place to buy saltwater fish than the local pet stores, so I'm now checking out online retailers. <<I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't buy livestock off the Internet (do it myself from time to time), but unless your local stores are just bad (e.g. - poorly maintained facilities, diseased and/or damaged livestock, etc.) or are not willing to work with you on special orders, this is often false economy for more reasons that just price>> Most of the online vendors I've looked into charge a huge shipping fee that would seem to negate any benefit from the cheaper price of the fish. <<Some have a flat-rate shipping charge which can translate to savings on large orders, and some have "free shipping" on very large orders…but you're right, most of the time the livestock ends up costing within a few dollars of buying at your LFS…and without the benefit of getting to see it's condition, and see it eat, before buying>> Would it even be cost effective to buy, say, $100 of fish or less at an online retailer as opposed to a local pet store? <<In some instances, yes…in my opinion. Many options to weigh here though... Are the selected species not commonly available locally? If not, can/will your local store special order? Will your local store price-match or give you a "break" on price for large orders (many will do "something" to keep your business off the Internet)? Will your store hold special-orders for a few days to make sure they are OK and feeding? And not least…is saving $10.00 or less (after shipping) on a fish bought sight-unseen that may not even be what you ordered when it arrives worth the possible loss of goodwill between you and your LFS?>> If so, what are the most reputable online dealers, and who's got the best value overall including shipping? <<Ask three people and you're likely to get three different answers. For me, LiveAquaria.com and PetSolutions.com have provided good livestock and good value…and great customer service>> I'm sure this question has probably been asked thousands of times already, <<Likely so>> but after searching for a good bit I couldn't seem to find it anywhere-please help if you can. <<I hope I have>> Thanks, Nick <<Happy to share. EricR>>

Re: Buying Saltwater Fish Online...Is It Worth It? - 07/24/08 Great points- thanks for the advice! <<Quite welcome>> I guess I'll probably stick with our local fish stores then. <<After some examination, this very often is the best choice>> Thanks again, Nick <<Happy to help. Eric Russell>>

Beware Saltwaterfish.com  3/10/08 <I sent this email to saltwaterfish.com after an unsatisfactory order, and all I got was a form letter from customer service. Just wanted to send out a heads-up, and possibly to place on WWM for future warning> I'm writing regarding order #xxxxx, which included a stars-n-stripes puffer, A. hispidus. The pufferfish arrived terribly emaciated, looking like it hadn't eaten in days or weeks. This was my first order with Saltwaterfish.com, and I was very disappointed with the condition the animal was in. I've had years of experience in the marine hobby, and knew right away that there was nothing I could do for this fish. I know that you have a 15 day 'guarantee', and that I can get a refund by returning the deceased specimen (and I am) but this is no excuse for shipping me such an emaciated specimen in the first place, and a 'guarantee' doesn't prevent an unnecessary death. My first order from Saltwaterfish.com will be my last order because of this Thank you for your time, Mike Maddox

Vendor Reputation   2/6/08 Dear Wet Web Crew, <Eric> I have a quick question regarding the reputation of an online vendor I am currently experiencing difficulty with. I ordered some soft corals from Corals Plus about three weeks ago... I promptly received a confirmation email and a phone call stating that my order was placed and I should be receiving my shipment early next week. Three weeks later and still no corals, I called and spoke to someone who told me "this happens sometimes" and someone would get back to me this weekend. I did receive a voice message over the weekend stating the shipment would go out early this week, but again nothing. Has anyone ever heard of or used this vendor before? I am beginning to get the feeling I have been scammed. Thanks, Eric <Mmm, I don't know this outfit at all... I would ask this question to the larger audiences of the specialty BB's (Reefs.org, ReefCentral...) to gather more data points... Next, if you don't receive satisfaction, I'd contact the State where the company is located DA's office. If you paid by credit card, I'd contact your CC co. and write them, refusing to pay. Bob Fenner>

NOAA Forecast - June 8, 2007 The latest issue of the NOAA Forecast has been posted online. In addition to updates on legislation and the appropriations process, this week we feature a recap of Capitol Hill Oceans Week and the saga of the wayward whales in the Sacramento River. To see the latest issue please visit the NOAA External Affairs website at www.externalaffairs.noaa.gov . Thanks, Jeff Donald Director, External Affairs NOAA

Etailer Plug 2/28/07 One last question.  I noticed that online ordering of fish and corals is substantially cheaper than my LFS. Is there an online supplier that you would recommend? <Can save quite a bit.  I have used most of the big ones, Drs. Foster Smith, Marine Depot, etc, and have been satisfied with them all for supplies.  I still like buying my fish at the store so I can see them before purchasing.> Amy <Chris>

Looking For Info On Pet Shop Fairs  8/28/06 Hi, I am looking by Internet for pet shop fairs in Canada and USA but I've not found anything. Can you give me some information about it please? Thank you! <Check out the World Wide Pet Industry Association's web site for industry pets shows like SuperZoo. Try www.wwpia.org.-Chuck>

Aquacon/On-Line Store/Complaint  - 04/02/06 Hi =) <Hello Amy> First off thanks so much for all your info. <You're welcome.> My husband and I have had our first 75gal. saltwater for almost a year now and things have gone great thanks to you and your awesome site info. I just had a question about some minor (I hope) problems. We recently ordered from an online store call Aquacon.com.  <No experience with them.> This is the first time in almost 2 months now that we have added any new items to our tank. The items we received we poor looking to say the least. We immediately lost a brain coral that was almost completely bleached out and damaged when it arrived and soon after noticed several other problems in the once pristine tank. The clam we purchased is also dying after about 3 weeks and the Cactus coral isn't looking so hot either. We have another clam and some mushroom corals and a few different polyps from a reputable store that are thriving. The levels are fine and they are well cared for so I'm at a loss. We know the rules for new corals and followed the directions to a T as we've done for the other items we have already. Another issue is a bag of Caulerpa seemed to have little brown jellyfish looking things hanging out nearby and then rooted themselves there.... and then all over the tank. We eventually found out these were Aiptasia. When I questioned the person that sold us the items he denied that the Aiptasia would be anywhere near the plants. While they haven't spread completely we are having to make a few minor changes in the tank and have purchased some peppermint shrimp in hopes of completely eliminating them. We watch the tank at night quite regularly and have noticed some very small shrimp like creatures (thinking they are mantis shrimp.. yuck) and some very small white slugs in the tank. I know now that one of the creatures that went in the tank was a mantis shrimp from pictures on your site. We are still learning and I assumed that since it came with the corals (from Aquacon.com) that it was safe =\ so in it went. I'm a little worried now with all these problems and the sudden demise of these few critters that we might be breeding a larger problem, diseases etc. It seems only the items we received from them are having trouble. Is there anything we can do to guard against this and maybe give the tank and fish a boost or safeguard against any unwanted problems? Should I just remove the items from the tank or is it too late? <I'd get the mantis out of there.  May have to buy a mantis trap.>  Everything was so perfect until we added these. <side note> I spoke to the owner of that online store who wasn't horribly helpful claiming quality and value. When I received our bill from him he also overcharged us quite a bit without telling us he was making those changes and also never let us know in advance if he had received the order and when it was going to be here. <Uncalled for.  My supplier (Drs Foster & Smith) notifies me by email when my order will arrive.> I called but no one answered and luckily when the live items were shipped to our house I just happened to be home. I'm afraid of what would have happened to them otherwise. On top of the Aiptasia and bad products we are having to fight over our credit card charges. Is there any way to maybe warn people on your site about this place too? What a mess!  <Will post on the dailies and there are a gazillion hits per day on this site.  Thanks for your concern for other aquarists.  James (Salty Dog)> Amy _________ 75gal. 4 yellow tailed Damsels 1 Ocellaris Clown 1 Firefish 1 Watchman goby 1 Blenny Red mushroom coral 1 green carpet anemone (big guy, has really grown a ton) Yellow polyps Purple clove polyps Cactus coral 2 Crocea clams (ones dying) 3 peppermint shrimp 1 brittle seastar 2 emerald crab handful of dwarf hermit crabs and misc snails PS. sorry that was so long Aquacon/On-Line Store/Complaint...Ongoing query  - 04/02/06 Update... Our Goby is missing action (makes me want to cry), as are 2 shrimp, I have some holes in my crabs shells and someone made quite the feast of one of my clams. My father came over to visit and while watching the tank asked what this strange little shrimp thing was  ha ha. He was smallish and had a darker body. We didn't get there in time to see exactly where he went but we have a general radius and I'll be watching! He's a tricky little ....<Yes they are tricky little.....>  We are going to give the trap a shot. (Crosses fingers)  <If you know which rock the little...is hiding, just remove the rock.  Be careful how the rock is picked up as mantis shrimp are capable of splitting fingers open.> After reading more of the forums its disturbing just how common this problem is. Thanks so very much for your very fast response and help Salty Dog! <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)> Amy PS. We have used Pet Solutions www.petsolutions.com  in the past and received nothing but beautiful healthy creatures. They answer their phones and are very helpful. I will check out Dr. Foster and Smith also. Thanks for the heads up. Aquacon On-Line Store/Complaint/Ongoing Query  - 04/02/06 Me again sorry to bother you. I just happened to check the Better Business Bureau for Aquacon.com. http://www.bbbsoutheastflorida.org/nis/newsearch2.asp?ID=1&strBCode=06330000&ComID=0633000027001077 "Based on BBB file experience this company has an unsatisfactory record. Specifically our files show misrepresentation in advertising practices, failure to eliminate the basic cause of complaints and a pattern of no response to customer complaints brought to its attention by the Bureau. When evaluating complaint information, please consider the company's size and volume of business. The number of complaints filed against the company may not be as important as the type of complaints and how the company handled them. 878 consumers have requested a reliability report on this company in the past 36 months. The Bureau processed a total of 29 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total 29 complaints in the last 36 months, 22 of those were closed in the last 12 months. " WOW!!! I should have done my homework on them before I ordered =\ <Thank you for this.  Will post for others to see.  We don't need to deal with stores like this.  James (Salty Dog)> Floridapets.com    3/29/06 Dear Crew, I stumbled across a site called Floridapets.com.  I was wondering if you had heard anything, good or bad, about this site.  I don't know how reputable it is.   Thanks for your input. Mike <Don't know these folks or business... I would write and ask on the various specialized BB's re others experiences... perhaps write the clubs they list a sponsoring. Bob Fenner>

Online Vendors 3/24/06 I sent the question below yesterday and didn't receive a reply.  Did I do/ask something that was inappropriate? I have received replies to all of my other queries. Just wondering... Eric B. <<Not at all!!  Sometime it just takes us a couple of days to reply.  We often get over 100 messages a day!>> Greetings!  I am currently looking into purchasing livestock and live rock online and would value some unbiased feedback regarding some vendors.  Saltwaterfish.com, LiveAquaria.com, and Marinedepot.com, were the ones I have been looking into. For live rock, they all offer the Fiji Premium I want, at varying prices.  LiveAquaria is the least expensive but uncured.  Saltwaterfish is the most expensive but they offer a pre-curing to the rock at their site and say this will limit the curing I need to do to only a few days if any.   Is it safe to assume the quality of the Fiji Premium from vendor to vendor is about the same? <<This is not an entirely safe assumption.  In most cases, you will get live rock that has never been unpacked (sometimes not even handled!) by the vendor you are buying it from.  Even if two vendors handle the rock the same, the quality can vary by shipment.  "Pre curing" will definitely reduce the curing/cycling time when you receive the rock, but often means less life on the rock.  "Uncured" and especially "raw" rock come with more life, but require more work and time to cure properly when it is received.  All of the vendors you listed are well established and to the best of my knowledge have good customer service records.>> Regarding fish and corals, which vendor has the best reputation for health and service?  Both LiveAquaria and Saltwaterfish offer a 15 day guarantee (although LiveAquaria seems more user friendly, providing a phone #).  Marine Depot seems to offer a better size selection. I just want be sure that I'm getting the most for my money, and supporting a reputable business trade at the same time.  As always, your time and insight is greatly appreciated.  Eric B. <<Again, there is so much variability that it is hard to say.  However, I do strongly support the idea of purchasing livestock locally so you have a chance to observe the animals for yourself, often over a few days, before purchasing.  This alone is worth the premium price since you will presumably have fewer losses.  Hope this helps.  AdamC>>

Aquarium Supply Stores - 03/21/06 I was wondering where a good place to buy aquarium supplies would be.  I am trying to find a place that offers good products and service, but isn't too expensive! <<Aren't we all! <grin> >> Any suggestions would be great!  Either online places or stores.  I am in Southern California. Thanks! <<Some of my online favorites are Marine Depot, Custom Aquatic, Premium Aquatics, Drs. Foster & Smith, and Pet Solutions.  Perhaps Bob can drop some names of some local fish shops.  Regards, EricR>>

SDC "Plug"  12/17/05 Bobbie, <Eric> How's it going? <Fine my friend> We are putting together a new advertisement for the aquarium magazines and  I was hoping that you could give us a quote about how Sea Dwelling Creatures,   Inc. has made an impact to the industry..... <Hotay... how long? Am long past due for writing a "review" "pro" piece re your biz> Any "kind" words would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much, Eric <Something short along these lines?: Sea Dwelling Creatures is a premiere outlet for marine livestock: Algae, Invertebrates, Live Rock, Fishes... in amazing quantity, quality and good health. Their build out, operations are among the best in the industry, with a well-trained and retained staff. The owner/operators, brothers Eric and Scott Cohen have "put their money where their hearts and minds are", developing relations with many of the best collecting stations and breeders in the world. Their Los Angeles location is always a delight to visit... with hundreds of giant clams, always rare and exotic fishes and corals to preview, and friendly, knowledgeable help. I am glad to count Eric and Scott (as well as their father, Bob/Stern) as friends and competent, honest business folk in our trade. BobF> Online Fish Stores  12/04/05 Hi!  <Hello Danny> I've visited an online fish store www.liveaquaria.com. Do know this website?  Have you bought fish from there? Are the fish healthy when you get them? <I've never heard anything bad about them. I've bought several things from them over the years. They do guarantee their fish and I know for a fact they do back up their guarantee should a problem arise. James (Salty Dog)> 

San Diego Aquarium Service and LFS's  12/10/05 Bob <He is out right now, Adam J with you.> Once or twice a year I have been having an aquarium expert in to service my 50 gallon aquarium, but he appears to be out of business. Do you have a recommendation for someone in Orange County I might use. I am also starting over with fish. I introduced some new fish a few months ago that I think were diseased, because they died and took the rest of my fish with them, so I'm also looking for a source for good fish and maybe PetSmart etc. is not a good choice. <I'm only responding to this because Bob is out and I didn't want you to think you were being ignored. Having said that I am unfamiliar with the San Diego area (I'm in the South Bay area right now) I will put this in Bob's box for him to look at but until then I would use various search options like Google as well as communicate with aquarists in the area via reef central or our own chat forum here. Other than that all I can say is please look into a quarantine tank.> <<I think he's looking for good services in Orange County, not San Diego.  That said, a LONG time ago I worked for a good service, but I cannot remember their name, and don't even know if they're still in business.  Word of mouth is, of course, the best way.  I'd try posting this question on ReefCentral or similar.  Marina>> Richard Arthur Fenner <Adam J.>

Consumer Activism (and if you drive with your fish, be sure to belt up) - 12/1/05 Hi Bob, <John with you today filling in> This is an important letter to circulate. I thank you for sending a link when it is published so I can further circulate this..... <I honestly don't know if this will be published... I expect it might, but with no express or implied support of your views. Certainly not on my part. If it is published, you may find it on the dailies> <<All is posted unless specifically directed not to.  Marina>> Subject: Boycott Tetra - a Bad Corporate Citizen! I first saw the call to boycott Tetra when the movie "Finding Nemo" came out.  Tetra's spokesperson, Carol Huntley-Weber, appeared on CBS's The Early Show and plopped 2 clownfish and 2 seahorses into a bowl of tap water. She made no mention of the salt needed. No doubt, the animals died.   <This has already well publicized. I was quite appalled to hear about it.> Carol, the spokesperson for the largest fish food company in the country, obviously knows nothing about keeping fish.  Now I have discovered that Tetra spent over $100,000 to support monster truck racing. You can Google the phrase "Tetra monster trucks" to see photos of the Tetra sponsored trucks.  Tetra's support for these gas guzzling, air polluting vehicles does absolutely nothing to help the aquarium hobby and the hobbyists who make Tetra wealthy! <Hmmmmmm> Even more astounding, Tetra spent $750,000 to purchase from Nickelodeon the manufacturing rights for children's toys. The toys were based on a TV program, Fairly Odd Parents, which shows kids riding in a car while talking to a cartoon fish in a fish bowl that was just sitting on the back seat. These toy products have received terrible ratings from consumers. <I am sure that will send a much larger message to Tetra than this rather ill-conceived letter> I wonder how many more fish may have been killed and how many more kids were misled by this nonsense. <Why? I've been driving around in monster trucks with fish in bowls on the back seat. Is there something wrong with that? The Tetra ads told me to! :P> The irony is that Tetra, with $266 million in sales a year, does absolutely nothing to support our fish hobbyist forums and websites. Yet, Tetra squanders amazing sums of money on hobbyist disinformation featuring stunningly ignorant spokespeople and ridiculous schemes that pollute the environment. <They indeed may not have the fish's best interest at heart. I cannot comment on that. But they are in the business of marketing to potential hobbyists. In attracting more newcomers to the hobby, they are directly benefiting the trade and the stores we rely on. This benefits us.> Tetra is a bad corporate citizen! That is why I am boycotting Tetra and I invite others to do the same. Circulate this letter and email to consumer@tetra-fish.com  <This may have to be edited out. Marina? Sabrina?> <<No, but I may have something even better (outside of going to their site and calling the (800) number).  http://www.tetra-fish.com/ENEWSROOM/index.asp - with a person's name and phone and everything.  Found via Google (but be careful, there is another Tetra, not at all associated with fish).  Marina>> to let them know that you are appalled by this irresponsible behavior and that you expect better from them!!! <I would encourage you to think from Tetra's viewpoint here. I am not saying or implying that I endorse (or do not endorse -- how's that for disclaimer verbiage?) what they do, simply that, in my experience, a scathing letter like this is not likely to be effective in achieving your goals.> <<Maybe not a single letter, but if it grows, it can be very effective.  However, the best vote is with your dollars.  If you disapprove of their methods, actions, etc., then don't buy Tetra products.  Marina>> Jeff Stevens <Jeff, this is all just my opinion, and I have no idea what the reaction of other WetWebMedia crew members will be. Perhaps they will comment on this also? Thanks for the e-mail. Best regards, John> <<Mmm, I guess I will... Tetra, as owned by Warner Lambert was a good company (IMO of course), supporting, growing the hobby, industry... they do (currently) have a nice, informative website, circulars... I do agree with the "Nemo incident"... RMF>>

Re: Boycotting Tetra  12/2/05 Hi John, <Hello Jeff> I appreciate your comments.  You remarked: "They indeed may not have the fish's best interest at heart. I cannot comment on that. But they are in the business of marketing to potential hobbyists. In attracting more newcomers to the hobby, they are directly benefiting the trade and the stores we rely on. This benefits us." For a company with their resources, they can easily get the best consultants and put out positive and beneficial messages and offer much more support for the hobbyists. There is marketing and there is marketing. I imagine that they probably turn off more prospective hobbyists with their ill conceived marketing programs than they turn on. <If that's the case, then they'll soon change the elements of their marketing plan you find so repugnant. Spectrum Brands is a BIG company (take a look at all the brands they own)... undoubtedly very wise to marketing. With regard to the monster trucks, maybe they've identified their niche as children?> <<Nay, young men between the ages of 16-28 (guessing at the target audience here, but it sure jives, doesn't it?  No kid can buy tickets to the Monster truck concert, but their big brothers sure can!  Marina>> That is the point of my letter. I know that they can do better. <Understood> Thanks again. JS <John>  

Aquarium sales in the U.S. 7/23/05 I am interested to know approximately how may freshwater and saltwater aquariums are sold each year in the U.S.  Where can I find basic information regarding the size of the aquarium industry? Barry S. Johnson <Mmm, some of the industry 'zines produce such data... I'd try contacting Pet Age, Pet Business... they have websites. Bob Fenner> MACNA Vendor Help!!! Hi Bob and Anthony, <Kim> My name is Kim Price, and I am on the MACNA 2006 planning committee and VP of MARSH. We are trying to get our vendor info situated and haven't been able to get any of the past data for previous vendors from MASNA or past host clubs. <Yowch... how about a listing/brochure or the Net account of who showed last year, the year before?> Eric Borneman suggested that maybe you two might be able to help by recommending any businesses that aren't currently listed on the MACNA 2005 site. We are basically having to start this list from scratch, so any input would be appreciated. <Much that can and should be done... Do you have access to Pet Business Magazine's 2004 or other recent Industry Yellow Pages, Buyer's Guides? Perhaps a retailer near you has a copy... Or if push comes to shove I can/will mail you my copy. This is the fastest way to peruse who you might/should contact... Quick! To find out who makes such decisions... and phone call till you chat with them (make this a budget item), and follow-up with an official invite, vendor's package> Please feel free to email me here or at kim.price@marshreef.com. Thanks in advance, Kim <Or... how many more spots do you have to sell? If it's just a few I can/will make a hit list for you if you'd like. Bob Fenner>

MACNA Vendor Help!!! -II Hi Bob, <Kim> Thanks for getting back with me. <Welcome> Of the literature mentioned below, I don't have any of those, but I can see if any of our sponsors have a copy they would let us borrow. Do you know of any online resources I can utilize in the mean time?? <Perhaps APPMA's roster: http://appma.fuzint.com/member/member_directory.asp.  You'll have to do the extra work of looking up (from folks websites I guess) addresses, phone numbers... calling them... or use PIDA Member Directory for Aquarium: http://www.pida.org/memberdirectory/index.cfm > We have tried to get the info from the websites of the various host clubs, but the LMAS ad BRS MACNA sites are inactive and the DFWMAS site has limited info. BRS and DFWMAS haven't been very forthcoming, but I am going to try Kelly at LMAS again. <Okay> We haven't started to sell our booths yet, but are going to attempt to get a head start for next year by trying to sell them before this year's even begins. <Very good idea> Also, if you have any other pointers for us, then that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Kim <Am full of the juice as usual here... Will cc Antoine as well. BobF> 

Re: MACNA Vendor Help! - III Thanks again for link, I will research it tomorrow while I am pretending to do work... <Heeee!> I will definitely keep your email handy if there are any other questions I might need your opinion or advice on. <Sure> And don't forget to make plans to come to Houston September 22-24, 2006... :) <Oooh, my favorite country in the U.S.. Bob Fenner> Thanks again, Kim 

Petmeister.com, other such instances, complaints Has anybody out there purchased anything from this company. I ordered some replacement light bulbs and 4 out of the six were the wrong type. They promised to make it right but have been avoiding e-mails from me and sounds like they may not have the best customer service. Thanks <Mmm, I would ask such questions on the larger BBs... ReefCentral, Reefs.org... if trouble, contact the BBB, state Attorney General re fraud... Bob Fenner>

Fritz Contact Mr. Fenner,      Do you have contact info. for the people at Fritz?  I know the issue of needing sales reps. may be long expired but figured it wouldn't hurt to try.  I just sold my retail store, after six years, and would like to get into a different level of the industry.  Thanks for any help in advance. Brandon <Don't know anyone there any longer (at least that I know!). I would contact them directly ( http://www.fritzpet.com/about_history.html) re your interest, go visit if you can. As far as I know their "coming back" in terms of product lines, involvement in the industry. Good luck. Bob Fenner>

Reputable mailorder - 10/6/03 I wanted to ask your advice...<That is what we are here for....that and peanuts>I have recently become enthusiastic about the dream of setting up a reef aquarium after some freshwater fancy goldfish experience. <BIG difference but.....go for it>  I am an Environmental Engineer with a Chemical Engineering background so have some hope of working out the chemistry. <Not really necessary as it is available on the site. Use the site as a tool, for sure!> I was impressed with some of the writings by Tullock but understand that the former mail-order business he was involved in is now defunct. <Yep, like many others find out too late, pet fish industry can be very difficult. I like Calfo, Fenner, Tullock, and Paletta to name my favorite authors. I believe all have owned at some level a pet fish biz in the past. Emphasis on the PAST. (but all are now authors..... hmmmmmmmmm......) Speaking of authors, other writers I enjoy are Toonen and Bingman. I feel their writing style is a bit more technical but I think you will find merit in their works.> I live in Alaska and the local support is limited. <I am sure> Do you have a list of any mail-order businesses that are credible (it would be even better if they were on the West Coast for shipping timing.) <So many to choose from here. Any one of the sites on our sponsors index I feel is reputable in one capacity or another. I like www.marinedepot.com  (for livestock too) and reefgeek.com (both Anaheim/LA area) for supplies and their prices are at or below most competitors> Also, the local shop here in Anchorage said that any marine tank is going to have bristle worms and you can't keep them out and they are actually beneficial organisms. <Well, you could keep them out if you were to quarantine for a period of time as well as lay out traps if one were to be concerned about them. I feel they have a beneficial effect on the reef tank. In my tank, quite a few live in the sand and stir it quite frequently. They also eat left over foods, and actually their by product becomes food (offspring and their waste products). More good than harm in my opinion>   Is that true? <I share the same opinion. In three years of reefkeeping, I can't say I can trace any of the few issues to bristle worms>  Thank you for your help. <No problem. -Paul> Laura L. Hammond

All Seas (LA) Dear Bob, Do you have ALL SEA MARINE contact number or email address? I just can't find them on net. <They have no net address or email contact. Their number in Torrance (California) is 310-532-7769, fax 324-5501. Ask for Ted or Edwin Chua. Bob Fenner> Thank you. Cheers, Charles

Via Aqua Hi - the built in powerhead/filtration system on my 6 month old 37 gallon 'Via Aqua' tank has quit - do you happen to have a number for them as I cannot find one and the dealer has gone bust! I have my receipts. <I did a quick Google search for 'via aqua' and came up with nothing. Then I remembered that the company is commodity axis, so here ya go! http://www.commodityaxis.com -Kevin> Thanks! Kevin Chippindale Orlando FL

Finding Products 7/19/03 Where can I purchase Wound Control?  I live in New York City. Daniel Rubin <Daniel... it depends on how you want to buy this product and how fast you need it. Perhaps the best way to find any product quickly is to simply call or e-mail the manufacturer... give them your location, and ask them to refer you to their nearest dealer. There are many large retailers in NY likely to carry it... or perhaps the Hidden Reef in Philly... or That Fish Place in Lancaster PA. Many great merchants to visit or mail order from. Best regards, Anthony>

Salt mix & equipment (in South Africa) My Name is Gilberto Di Siena, I live in Johannesburg, South Africa.  I am an avid fish keeper.   Have 9, aquariums, varying in size.  My problem is that in South Africa there is a terrible shortage of reliable suppliers.  What I am looking for is a contact to be able to purchase my salt mix and other equipment from.  I would like to know from you  if you have a wholesaler in my country or if you would be able to help me by sending me the goods I require. Please contact me via e-mail or telephone 0027117287005, or fax0027117286498.  Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you soon. Regards   <Mmm, I would contact Ralf Schmidt of Knop Products (Germany) with this question. Their website URL: http://www.knop.de/ Good hunting! Bob Fenner>

Sri Lanka Fishes Hi Bob n gang, I am a new fish trader in Malaysia.  I am buying some marine fishes for my company and I was wondering what is the quality of Sri Lankan fishes like, compared to Philippines and Indonesia?  The Sri Lankan fishes seem to be priced slightly higher than Indo-Philippines, and I was hoping that they are better conditioned. <The most experience I have with marine livestock from Sri Lanka is second hand and from visiting with folks in the trade from there at the Interzoo shows. IMO there are good to not so good businesses in both countries. I would judge that more good companies are in Sri Lanka however> Also, any idea of cynaide usage in harvesting fishes in Sri Lanka? <Not as far as I've ever heard.> I hope that you are able to lend me some of your experience. Thanks John <Do share your experiences when you've bought in a few shipments. Bob Fenner>

Re: Canadian Mail-order inquiry Hi Mr. Fenner, I was reading your Monday FAQ's, and noticed someone in Canada looking for a Canadian mail-order place. I live in Montreal, QC. Canada, and have used MOPS, ( Mail Order Pet Supplies in Ontario, Canada) which can be found on the internet at WWW.M.O.P.S.com . I don't know if the person is looking to purchase livestock, or dry-goods, but when I've used this company, I've received fast, efficient, and courteous service. I am also sure if they do not carry what he wants, Dan Cole, ( who runs the company) should know where it could be found. He seems to know his stuff pretty well. Hope this helps, Greg N. <Thank you for this input. A friends business, Custom Aquatic also sells to Canada. Their URL can be found on WetWebMedia.com. Bob Fenner>

Mail Order Hi Bob, I just love your site, many thanks.......Anyhow, would you happen to know of a business which I could mail order through? <Several. Please check the Links Pages on WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner> Regards, Roland

Re: Mail Order Hi Bob, Just realized that my previous e-mail was incomplete. I'm in Canada, and I don't know of any business such as ffexpress, that will deliver in Canada. <Mmm, wish I knew better about the arcane laws twixt countries... I would next check through the listservs, bulletin boards, chatforums (ours: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/) re who has bought what from where with success, sent to "the great white north" eh? Bob Fenner> I just love your site, many thanks.......Anyhow, would you happen to know of a business which I could mail order through? Regards, Roland

Totally Tropical Fish?? Have you heard anything about the reputation of an internet company called Totally Tropical Fish? The URL is http://wimall.com/tropfish/Default.htm They seem to have some decent prices, but don't appear as well established as ffexpress or etropicals, etc.. I'd hate to set-up an order and either get ripped off, or receive sub-par livestock. Thanks <Don't know the company, folks well-enough to have an opinion. But do know how I would proceed. Ask the many actual users on the various bb's, chatforums. Ours: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/ Bob Fenner> Re GARF, graft, opinions re same Thank you for the lightning response. In surfing the web what do think of GARF and their promotions.  <At times shameful... at others, just shameless...> I was thinking of making my own live rock. I've got time don't want to jump in without checking the water. <Well put... DIY rock can work... but has real costs in time, curing... Check out the best in DIY input on "Oz's Reef", the link in turn on the WWM Links pages> Thanks, Mike

general question re Who's Who in Mailorder/e-tailing name game Sorry to bother you again. there are two websites on the internet with almost the same name, pet warehouse, and pets warehouse. what' up with that? is one better than the other? have there been any problems with either? the reason that i am asking, is that i read in one of your faqs something about pets warehouse.once again thanks for your time. <Good guestion... as these are two separate companies that "enjoy" very different reputations... do check out the archives of the various listservs in the ornamental aquatics fields re this... Their URLs can be found through the Links pages on the www.WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner>

Wow (help with pet-fish publishing) Mr. Fenner, Gee, thanks for you kindness. I will let you know if I hear anything from Mr. Lawrence, but chances are, you will hear from him before I do. :) <James is a fine person as well as "the real thing" in both the way of being an editor and true aquarium hobbyist. He will likely be contacting you soon to offer his keen knowledge of what you want and need to know> I like your idea to include as many photographs as possible for "the book." Between the diver I am working with, and the new camera we are upgrading to, we should get some good shots, but I may still need to rely on some of your photographs to make a more complete compilation. Once again, I do appreciate the offer. <Please do just let me know... have many tetraodontiform images, above and below water, some already scanned that I can easily burn onto a CD for you in just an hour... others that will take a bit more time to sort, scan> Well, that was a relief reading your advice about including just a list of references in a bibliography. That will save a LOT of work, as you know. :) <Indeed> I'm getting somewhat excited about this whole book writing notion. I wish it were summer vacation already so that I could devote more time to it. It will come soon enough though. <Ah, few things as joyful as a person of ability and drive, anticipating, putting themselves to good works> Okay, now to let you get back to your work. Take care, and best regards, Theresa Ulrich geocities.com/cowfish_andmore <Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Marine Livestock Business Bob, I am thinking of going into the marine livestock business via the internet. Can you tell me where I can find information regarding the size of this market and other details such as the success / failure rate in this trade? Thank you for your time! <Welcome to the industry... Much, much to say, and for you to do here... First and foremost, have you worked in the ornamental aquatics field? In internet commerce? In both at the same time? The latter would be ideal, the first two are requisite... Do volunteer, beg your way into doing what you can (everything) in learning the trade from a first hand point of view.  Hmm, will post a trade magazine piece here for your perusal, and try to get this and some other "business" articles et al. I've penned on the WWM site for all interested parties' perusal. Bob Fenner ... Well, can't seem to locate a copy of the addresses for the current run of "thinly disguised endorsements" which pass for the periodicals in the pet trade... They're not of that much utility, but you should avail yourself of all you can get your hands on, including the larger foreign ones (like OFI...). Do ask a business in the fields (etailing and marine livestock) to allow you to participate... If need be, move to where these are for a few months... And/or, if you have the inclination, stay in contact with me, and travel about the planet visiting with the folks that make up the industry. Bob Fenner, same fellow

Re: Marine Livestock Business Thank you for your prompt reply. It's really kind of you to respond so quickly to some anonymous person. <Glad to be of service... Always happy to help good people into my/our line of work> I have no experience in the ornamental fish trade. Although years ago I was in contact with retailers and wholesalers who were in the African cichlids business. I have no experience in e-commerce. But I am an experienced user of it and really understand its advantages and drawbacks. I am an insurance executive who is looking for a change and aquarium is my passion. I believe I have a good idea to market marine livestock. Living in Los Angeles gives me good access to many wholesalers and, I believe, a price advantage. However, as you mentioned I have a lot to learn and I intend to get as much information as possible before proceeding. <Ah yes... and you have the much more valuble qualities of drive and intelligence... the experience you can come by... And happily I am good friends with many people in the area, will gladly introduce you to a few if you'd like, ask them to take you on as... a "work/study" to gain absolutely necessary first-hand experience into what you're proposing...> I have learned a little about your background from your website and your book "The Conscientious Marine Aquarius". Since you had a lot of experience in this trade, I though you might be able to provide some sources for me to research. I would appreciate any assistance you could provide! <There is one grand repository in the form of Bob Rofen's "Aquatic Resource Center" in Hayward... the world's largest collection of all matter of books, periodicals, ephemerea... re the business, science and hobby or ornamental aquatics... Perhaps a trip to this Mecca? For now, do consider working with an L.A. wholesaler in different capacities to find out what you're getting into... and do secure an equity partner... Yes, you will need someone to be "there" with you... not just money, a personal commitment... Trust me. Bob Fenner>

supplier needed Dear Bob, Do you know of any suppliers for heat/cold packs for shipping live corals? I am also seeking a supplier of styrofoam coolers for the same purpose. Thank you, Charlie Greiner >> <Gosh, good grief, and I wish... Been a long time since I bought box upon box quantities of these heat packs... For Petco... got some cheesy ones for down to twenty some cents a pop (at 25k quantity). And boxes with or w/o liners are important to get nearby... Whereabouts are you (physically)? Near Florida? I would give the FTTFA a ring... on the west coast? Dolphin International. Do you need numbers to these? Bob Fenner

Re: supplier needed Dear Bob, I'm in NY (Long Island). Coral farming is just grown beyond local shops. Do not have numbers for anyone with these items. Any help would be appreciated. Charlie >> <Hmm, am concerned for you re the costs of these items from afar... About how many are you looking for in what time frame? Are you friends with any local dealers (livestock, retailers?). Have them ask Lombardo's to sell you what few you need... Elsewise, if you're going through a can a week in ship outs, I can help you save some money by helping have a bunch (as in many) boxes and heat packs shipped via a long hauler. Bob Fenner

Re: supplier needed Dear Bob, I found the co-op store for the FTFFA. They have heat and cold packs. Will talk with them tomorrow. They may also have the cooler type liners. If so, I will order from their store and let them ground ship here. I appreciate your help. Charlie >> <Ah good. Do keep in contact... and if the cardboard, styro boxes from FLA are too much (they do have them for sure), I hope to find you a cheaper source nearby. Bob Fenner>

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