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FAQs on Marine Diseases 9  

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Kindly request your help. (Marine Fish Disease Mandarin Dragonet - Coral Beauty)    9/24/15
Dear all,
Thank you for all the information in the website, it is amazing how much I've learnt and the enjoyable time I've spent reading about marine tanks and species!
<Ahh; deeply gratifying to realize we have been of help to you>
My issues... A mandarin dragonet and coral beauty have something I can't determine.
<I see these... sores, non-emarginated... in your pix>
8 weeks ago (1 week after buying it) the dragonet had a small bubble on his right part of the head which became something like a pimple and then exploded leaving an open gap.
A few days later the coral beauty had a bit of an injury on side, maybe done by a rock.
<May be>
I was recommended (lfs) to dip of them in Ro/di as suggested 3 times in a span of a week.
<Just the freshwater alone? Not of use; and for browsers, DO NOTE that such water has NO oxygen; needs to be aerated before and likely during dip/bath procedures>
The injuries seemed to get better however two weeks ago I left for holidays and came back 10 days later and found them worse. It seems like something is chewing on the skin.
<Yes; at least bacterial and/or Protozoan involvement likely here>
So I did 10% water changes every day for a week (lfs suggestion) and then treated the tank with Myxazin for 5 days as the instructions said but it didn't seem to work, they also told me to apply a bit of directly to the fish's wound for three straight days which I did however it didn't work as my coral beauty is dead (RIP). The mandarin is eating and active.
I'd appreciate your help to identify the disease or cause so I can treat them properly or prevent it from happening again. Maybe both each fish has is a different case.
Thank you!
Levels after coming back from holidays: (08/09/2015): salinity 1.026, phos 0, no2 1, no3 0, ammonia 0, pH 8, kH 6 ....
Levels after Myxazin (21/09/2015); salinity 1.026, phos 0, no2 .5, no3 10!!!,
<Not a worry>
ammonia 0, pH 8, kH 6 ....
My tank: 40 gallon tank, skimmer, phos reactor, wm Jebao rw14 . no sump.
Livestock: frags ( ZOA's, hammer, pulsing Xenia.), small rbta, 2 fire shrimp, Nassarius and turbo snails, small paired clownfish, mandarin and coral beauty.
Pics attached
<Well; w/o microscopic examination of sampling, possibly culture; one can only guess in these situations.... Which I REALLY don't like. Were it me/mine, I might try lacing foods of use for a few day treatment of Metronidazole... but otherwise would seek to make the environment optimum and stable and hope the Mandarin comes to stasis.
Bob Fenner>

What could this be? READING        2/19/15
Hey Bob,
Last night a few of my heavy eaters did it eat for the first time. Today they would not eat as well, and notices this, fuzz, string like stuff on them.
My achilles also had ich dots on him heavy last night and I have not see him today. I have Chloroquine phosphate coming to
Me today via veterinary pharmacy.
I also suspect flukes, so will be using Prazi pro as well.
The last fish I added was about two weeks ago, a miniatus grouper straight from reef dwellers in Las Vegas.
<... groan; no quarantine, dip/bathing?>
My parameters seem fine, 0 amm or nitrite, 80 nitrate,

dKH 7, sg 1.022 and 78 degrees f.
Could these just be drastic signs of ich, or could it also be velvet?
<Can only tell how? Sampling and microscope use. Bob Fenner>

Re: What could this be?        2/19/15
Bob, has been higher for long time. Implemented pellets that did not take effect.
<.... stop writing and start reading re NO3 control>
Upon further inspection, achilles tang is dead. Visible dots and fuzz on others. Will be receiving cp today. Just not sure whether to hit Prazi as well.

Problem with tank.... no useful information or reading     8/8/14
Why would my chocolate chip star fish turn white and crumble and die a couple weeks ago
<Quite common... READ here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ccstardisfaqs.htm
now my Black Sea horse got two white spots started to crumble but just died within two days.
<... Uhh; where's the data? Search, read on WWM re Seahorse systems, feeding....>
Anna Cox
<Bob Fenner> 

I need help asap!!!in... SW... fish dying... NO data: Brook? Reading... What WWM is NOT: mind readers      5/23/14
I have all my fish in qt right now with Prazi and Cupramine but my fish are dropping like flies!
<MOVE to another setting/system; or change a huge part of the water NOW>
I think I have Brooklynella or something similar. I have formalin with malachite green.
<Both very toxic... see WWM re>

What do I do??!! Do I dip all my fish and put them back in the qt or should I remove all meds from my qt and start with the formalin? If so what would be the best way to do this? Thanks in advance
<... Search on WWM, READ. Bob Fenner>
RE: I need help asap!!!in... Still not reading...      5/23/14

I don't understand. I understand the part about moving to another quarantine or doing a big wc but what do I search on wwm?
<... Formalin principally>
After browsing thru many many wwm q and a I believe I have Brooklynella and therefore the Cupramine
<... won't treat. See WWM re Brook>

and Prazi are not effective. What should I do? Should. I dip every fish in my qt with formalin and malachite green or should I add it into the qt?? Please help! If I should add it to the qt should I remove the Cupramine and PraziPro and how? And if I should only dip then how will I rid the qt of brook? I believe one single clown brought the brooka and has infected everyone in the qt! Please help me.
<Help yourself. BobF>
RE: I need help asap!!!in     5/23/14

Hello bob. U keep telling me to search. I have browsed thru many many wwm q and a and felt I needed your help soni decided to ask u what to do. I have a feeling u don't want to help me. You also stated help yourself. Whats going on?
<Please send your email through a spelling/grammar checker and re-send>
RE: I need help asap!!!in     5/23/14

By the way, I also asked for your help a few days ago regarding my qt procedure and got no response from u.
<We respond to all>
Now im having a big problem and u don't seem to want to help me for some reason. Can u pls explain to me what is going on?
I am asking for your help bc I really need it. My fish are not doing well and all u tell me.
is to search for myself. Why wont u tell me what to do as u have done so to many others?
I have spent all day researching and cannot figure out a good solution as of yet and im
afraid the longer I wait, the brook is gonna keep killing my fish! Thanks...
<Please send your email through a spelling/grammar checker and re-send>
Wow lol ok so now I know for sure u don't want to help me. Why? I don't know.
But u definitely do not love or respect this hobby if u are unwilling to help out a fellow reefer in need for whatever reasons u may have. Sorry for wasting your time and mine. Thank u
RE: I need help asap!!!in.... Not following directions... sigh     5/23/14

No need to put my message thru a spell/grammar check. I will correct it myself. See below.
I was sending the message in a hurry n didn't feel that I couldn't write u instead of YOU or n instead of AND etc.
I don't know what ur (youre) problem is with me but all im asking is for your helo bc (because) my fish are dying and I thought a man like yourself by reading thru (through) your q and a (questions and answers) that u (you) would care about the health of innocent livestock but I guess I was mistaken. I don't know u (YOU) and u don't know me so I am baffled to say the least to read your responses to me and your unwillingness to help me. Anyways like I previously stated, sorry for wasting your time and mines. Goodbye. SEE BELOW FOR YOUR GRAMMAR/SPELLCHECK.
BTW (by the way) u sir have no business in this hobby when u wont help someone in need for whatever personal ridiculous reasons u may have!
PS. I apologize for not putting my message through a spelling and granmar check before sending it to you but I didn't realize that to ask for your help on sick fish we must also have perfect grammar and spelling. So again I apologize. Thank you.

Have you searched, read on WWM re Formalin use and Brooklynellosis?>
RE: I need help asap!!!in     5/23/14

Yes I have and still felt lost which is why I sent you an email as my last resort.
I already know you are not too fond of formalin but you do say that it is effective in treating Brooklynella. I have searched and searched to try and figure out whether I should dose the entire qt tank or just dip the fish
<Either just dip or you'll have to change out all the water daily... as gone over and over...>
and most of my readings suggest I should dip and I also know you are very fond of fw dips.
<Ah yes>
Where I am stumped is that all these fish were previously dipped before I put them into my qt tank and a clownfish that I believe brought the Brooklynella I believe has infested the qt tank with this horrible disease and I just want to know from someone as experienced as yourself how I should go about ridding this nasty disease from the quarantine system as I am having perfecrly healthy fish popping up with signs of being sick and hours later they are dead.
If you can help me and give me a straight answer as I have already told you that I have browsed through wwm and cannot find an answer as to what I should do. Thank you again in advance.
<There's always Quinine compounds... perhaps CP... had you read... >
RE: I need help asap!!!in.... STILL no reading or info. of use... What?      5/23/14

Its friday afternoon and theres no way for me to get any new meds at this time. My fish are still
dropping like flies. I have started dipping the fish but every hour theres another fish that goes out the door.
I don't know what to do! I did a water change already and dipped all the fish in fw that looked ill. Heres my medicine cabinet.
Cupramine, PraziPro, rid-ich, methylene blue, metronidazole. Please please just tell me what I can do to stop all these fish from dying!
<You've offered no substantive, useful information re your system, livestock, tests... B>

RE: I need help asap!!!in SW, fish... hlth... Data!     5/24/14

Hello Bob. Kathy here again. I have been up all night thinking about what could've gone wrong because I thought that the way I quarantined my fish was a pretty good procedure. So let me explain. So first I drip acclimated my fish to my qt system water which already had .20 Cupramine in it. I then prepared 2 buckets, both with the same water from the qt system that has Cupramine in it (now I think was a BIG mistake). In bucket A I mixed in formalin and in bucket B Methylene blue. These medications are from the packages from Blue Life called Safety Stop. After drip acclimating for about 45 min I then transferred the fish to bucket A for 45 min and then bucket B for another 45 min. Both buckets I was monitoring the temp and both had aeration via air pump. I completely forgot to take into account that the water I was mixing these 2 medications in had Cupramine. Could I have poisoned all my fish? Would the fish have died right away or take a couple days?
<Yes and yes>
I did have other fish that were already in the qt system that were doing very well, eating, and already 2 weeks into their Cupramine and Prazi treatment all of a sudden die so there still must be something else going on. Can you help me please?
<... with what? PLEASE. Re-read what you've sent to WWM... there's nothing that one can add...>
I don't see any symptoms in the fish other than lethargic and not eating and usually they're dead within the hour. Thanks in advance.
RE: I need help asap!!!in. Ongoing nonsense    5/24/14

By the way. You said that I basically poisoned my fish but that still doesn't account for the other fish that were perfectly fine and all of a sudden died. Those fish were 2 weeks into quarantine and those fish never went through the dip. That was an added step I chose to take based on readings that Cupramine and Prazi will not take care of brook which I believed some of my fish may have been coming in with. Thanks
Ok well then can you please tell me what I need to do different in my quarantine process? And can you please explain your unwillingness to help me? I am just very curious as to why you don't want to help me so I can do things the right way.
<From what you've written I have very little knowledge of what you're doing, what you're seeking help with... Less emotion and more detail...>
Thank you.
<...? Is there some reason you can't/won't follow instructions on how to use WWM? Are you an non-native speaker? Is use of the indices and search tool on every page beyond your grasp?
Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
SCROLL down to the first tray... READ re Quarantine... >
RE: I need help asap!!!in    5/24/14

And by the way, one last thing, I have read and REREAD your quarantine procedure and its exactly what I did with my fish except for the last time which I added dipping them in formalin. Before that, my quarantine procedure was almost exactly how u explain it. I drip acclimated the fish into the qt tank that had Cupramine tested and retested at a level of .20-.25. I now understand I poisoned my fish by dipping them in formalin using the Cupramine water but I still cannot find any information as to what could've happened to the other fish.
<? No info.>
Those fish like i previously stated have been in qt for 2 weeks and showed no signs of anything and all of a sudden at the same time that all my new fish were dropping like flies from my obvious poisoning, so were those fish from before that were not dipped in formalin and what im trying to figure out and what I keep asking u for your help is that I cant figure out whats gong on and I am LOST as to what the next step I should take. I have read a million articles and I cant figure it out and don't know what else to do and all u have done is wasted my time. I writ and write to u and I am just as lost because u refuse to help me. Goodbye. I will never ask wwm for help again. Thanks
RE: I need help asap!!!in... Now... racism? Whacky    5/24/14

Youre a very rude man and I regret the day I ever asked anything on wwm. And BOB even though I might not be as WHITE
<What? Am not white, but brown...>
as yourself, I was born in the united states, have a college degree in psycology, and own my own saltwater store. You sir are just a rude man and ive noticed by reading through wwm that you are just rude to everybody. Now I know its not me and its just the way you are. Sorry for you. Be a little nicer, it goes a long way. Goodbye
CP... and light
Hello Bob, Kathy here again. Sorry for the bother but I have been searching the web and WWM for an answer to my question and have not been able to find what I am looking for. As you already know, I had an outbreak of Brook in my quarantine tank. I had been previously using Cupramine and PraziPro to quarantine all new fish but this time I noticed I had Brook and after a couple days of searching the web decided to order some Chloroquine phosphate. I have dosed my quarantine tank but kept my fluorescent lights on 8 hours a day like I usually do and did not realize until now that the CP breaks down with light. The tank is a 300 gallon quarantine tank with 2 48inch fluorescent bulbs. My question is, do you think that lighting can break down the CP?
If so, what should I do now?
<Change water and re-treat>
When is it safe to redose and how much should I redose?
<Per percentage of water changed out>
I added the CP yesterday morning. The lights were on for 8 hours yesterday and for another 8 hours today. Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to offer.
<Welcome. B>

plz help... A bunch of issues (self-induced); mis-stkg., Crypt, formalin:ammonia burning... and rdg.       8/22/13
hi wwm i really need help
<I can tell; something's wrong w/ your spell/grammar checker!>
 i have a lion fish thats sick and its just getting worst i bought a juvi emperor and it had ich

 so my lion and my clown trigger
<... this Balistid shouldn't be kept w/ a Lionfish>

caught it i didnt have a qt so i was treating in my display tank so i was using reef safe
<There is no such thing... see WWM re real Crypt med.s>
stuff it was ich X
<This product is a scam, placebo>

so i did what the instructions said i treated for 10 days it went away for a day and came back as soon as i stopped treating so i gave i a couple days then tried it again this time it didnt work i lost my trigger and all the sudden my unicorn tang damsel and my clown fish had it so i gave up on that reef safe stuff its junk

i went out and got a qt tank i set it up and put the tang clown damsel and lion fish in there and started treating with quick cure <Dangerous ingredients... narrow range of efficacy; the formalin will kill nitrifiers... NEED to monitor ammonia, nitrite>
the clown is good and my little damsel is clean the unicorn tang died 2 days later : ( but my lion fish is really bad hes getting worst hes deteriorating slowly his spines are losing the skin covering and his wing fins are losing the tips his tail fin the top half is missing same with the fin under the tale and theirs a white film that's coming off his fins looks like lint its free flowing off him it moves in the water its not a film like your thinking its not coated on his body like one end is attached to him and it comes up off of him and waves around in the water and hes starting to get a hole on his side like a open sore with a meaty look im trying to explain it
<Yes; due to the medicine, after-effects>
 the  best i can i feel so bad for him he was eating fine till 4 days ago and all he does is lay up against the sponge filter i also have a regular filter i put the sponge in there for the little damsel and little clown
<Lionfish/s, triggers will eat these>

 just in case but my lion has never gone after them they actually get along good besides the point i tried feeding him today but he wouldn't move from the filter so i nudged him a little to get him away from the filter to get him to swim a little bit and take the sponge filter out but he didn't want to move and it seems like hes struggling to swim i feel bad that i waited this long to get help but i never knew about you guys till now i always looked for help at my lfs so it might be to late but i will try anything to save him plz plz plz help thank you
<... Help with? Are you capable of using the search tool (on every page) of WWM? If not... likely having you start reading (and soon/stat.!) here:
is the best course of action... scan all, read re topics you're well-versed in... esp. the use of Quick Cure's active ingredients. The links in the FAQs files you encounter will give you insights on how to proceed. Don't worry re feeding for now, but DO keep your eye on water quality. Bob Fenner>

Guidance on fish deaths and direction going forward - 01/27/2013
Hi. I have recently run into some trouble with my FOWLR tank and am hoping that you can provide some guidance on what to do next. I know that something has gone very wrong, but cannot be sure of exactly what.
<Let's see>
It is a 75g tall with 20g sump, SCA-302 skimmer (rated for 150gal tank), and about 40 lbs of live rock. Using NSW from Scripps.
<Am very familiar. Do see WWM re... using the Scripps name, just "natural seawater" re its risks, limitations>

 Temp stays between 75 and 77 consistently. Maintenance was generally 20% water changes every 3 weeks, since the bioload was extremely low and it is a large tank that I would think would be very forgiving in terms of water parameters.
The tank has been set up for about six months. I cycled the tank with live rock and with fish food, and even after the cycle was completed and all parameters looked good, I waited longer before adding any fish. It ended up running fallow for about four months, and all looked good (1.024 sg, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20ppm nitrate), so I felt comfortable purchasing my first fish. At that time, I purchased a Klein's Butterfly and added it to the tank. All went well for about 6 weeks, and so I added a second fish (Flame Cardinal). I did not QT the cardinal, which I know was dumb, but he had been at the LFS for several weeks and looked healthy every time I was in there. About 2 weeks after I added the cardinal, the butterfly died (I found it laying on its side, on the sandbed, up under some of the rockwork). Water tests at that time showed 1.023 sg, 0.25 ammonia and 60ppm NO3.
<Too high... I urge you to keep under 20 ppm>

Since I had been out of town for a couple of days, I attributed these less-than-ideal readings to the dead butterfly having probably been lying there for a day or so, beginning to foul the water. The body was very pale (white, almost transparent, if that makes any sense). Because of this, I could not identify any obvious visual signs of disease, etc.
After this death, I did a approx. 30% water change and restored parameters to normal. About 10 days after this, the cardinal began to show signs of distress. Laying on its side, with labored breathing, but with no other symptoms. I began setting up a QT tank and went to get some more water from the LFS to do a water change, but by the time I got back, it was too late.
I did not observe any scratching on rocks or otherwise strange behavior prior to finding it on the sand.
The only other thing I can think to add is that about 2 months after I first set up the tank, I noticed that there was significant mold in my homemade canopy (I should have painted it instead of leaving it as raw wood). I removed it at that time, and have been running it with the top open ever since. Not sure if some contaminants got into the water way back then and is causing problems now?
I know that this isn't much to go on. If you were to guess, does this sound like disease, or some other situation? I am evaluating my options (let it run fallow for 2 months, drain and run bleach through the system and start over, or just quit). If I were to "sanitize" everything, how much bleach would be required? Maybe 4-5 cups with the tank full of tap water, letting it run through the pump/sump for 24 hours is what I was thinking. If I do this, do I have to let the tank dry out in the sun to get rid of the bleach? (That is something that I've seen mentioned a few times). I am recovering from an injury at the moment and cannot move the tank outside, so looking for alternatives. Maybe this is too drastic, given that I really don't know that it's disease for sure. I'm looking for any suggestions that you might have.
<Am sorry to leave you so abruptly. Will continue (have to board a plane)
Guidance on fish deaths and direction going forward - 01/27/2013

Hi. I have recently run into some trouble with my FOWLR tank and am hoping that you can provide some guidance on what to do next. I know that something has gone very wrong, but cannot be sure of exactly what.
It is a 75g tall with 20g sump, SCA-302 skimmer (rated for 150gal tank), and about 40 lbs of live rock. Using NSW from Scripps.
<Am very familiar... live in San Diego, was a volunteer at the old W.T.V. aquarium. Natural seawater has its advantages and not, even potential dangers. Covered/archived on WWM>
Temp stays between 75 and 77 consistently. Maintenance was generally 20% water changes every 3 weeks, since the bioload was extremely low and it is a large tank that I would think would be very forgiving in terms of water parameters.
<In some ways, degrees>
The tank has been set up for about six months. I cycled the tank with live rock and with fish food, and even after the cycle was completed and all parameters looked good, I waited longer before adding any fish. It ended up running fallow for about four months, and all looked good (1.024 sg, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20ppm nitrate), so I felt comfortable purchasing my first fish. At that time, I purchased a Klein's Butterfly and added it to the tank. All went well for about 6 weeks, and so I added a second fish (Flame Cardinal). I did not QT the cardinal, which I know was dumb, but he had been at the LFS for several weeks and looked healthy every time I was in there. About 2 weeks after I added the cardinal, the butterfly died (I found it laying on its side, on the sandbed, up under some of the rockwork). Water tests at that time showed 1.023 sg, 0.25 ammonia and 60ppm NO3.
<Ammonia must be 0.0 and I'd keep nitrates below 20 ppm>
 Since I had been out of town for a couple of days, I attributed these less-than-ideal readings to the dead butterfly having probably been lying there for a day or so, beginning to foul the water. The body was very pale (white, almost transparent, if that makes any sense). Because of this, I could not identify any obvious visual signs of disease, etc.
After this death, I did a approx. 30% water change and restored parameters to normal. About 10 days after this, the cardinal began to show signs of distress. Laying on its side, with labored breathing, but with no other symptoms. I began setting up a QT tank and went to get some more water from the LFS to do a water change, but by the time I got back, it was too late.
I did not observe any scratching on rocks or otherwise strange behavior prior to finding it on the sand.
The only other thing I can think to add is that about 2 months after I first set up the tank, I noticed that there was significant mold in my homemade canopy (I should have painted it instead of leaving it as raw wood). I removed it at that time, and have been running it with the top open ever since. Not sure if some contaminants got into the water way back then and is causing problems now?
<May be>
I know that this isn't much to go on. If you were to guess, does this sound like disease, or some other situation?
<Can't tell>
 I am evaluating my options (let it run fallow for 2 months, drain and run bleach through the system and start over, or just quit).
<I'd go w/ the first, definitely not the last>
If I were to "sanitize" everything, how much bleach would be required?
<A gallon would do it... see WWM re my SOP>
Maybe 4-5 cups with the tank full of tap water, letting it run through the pump/sump for 24 hours is what I was thinking. If I do this, do I have to let the tank dry out in the sun to get rid of the bleach? (That is something that I've seen mentioned a few times). I am recovering from an injury at the moment and cannot move the tank outside, so looking for alternatives. Maybe this is too drastic, given that I really don't know that it's disease for sure. I'm looking for any suggestions that you might have.
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Clownfish problem, can't find solution, "bloat"      9/20/12
I am having a problem with my snowflake clownfish. I've looked everywhere for a solution before sending this email and I am hoping that you can help me to clear it up. My clownfish is somewhere around a year old and has been in my tank since March. A few weeks ago the clownfish became very bloated.
<Mmm, a few possible causes... impaction, parasites, genetic...>
After a few days I added Epsom salt and since then have added it an additional four times. There was a 5 gallon water change in between 2 of them. The system is 30 gallons total and there is one other tank mate, a larger Darwin clown that I bought at the same time of the snowflake purchase. I have not witnessed any bullying at all in fact, yesterday I saw the little male do the quiver when the Darwin snapped at him.  I feed a varied diet of Marine S, Tetra flakes, and Marine cuisine. The past week I have thrown peas in there a few times to try to clear the blockage.
<Assuming there is such>
I am now beginning to wander if it is blockage at all and not a parasite (worms etc).
<Not common in cultured individuals (vs. wild-collected)>
 He eats anytime i feed which is now every few days because i don't want him popping (I know this may sound stupid but he is that big), he doesn't swim like anything is wrong, in fact i would never know anything was wrong if he didn't look as though he ate a marble. We are on week 3 I think and a few times the swelling has gone down (a little bit) but then comes back a when i feed. Any help would be appreciated, I'm stumped.
<Mmm, a bath or continuous emersion (only w/ this antibiotic, as others may kill off nitrifiers, and not in the presence of Cnidarians) w/ Oxytetracycline may prove efficacious... 25 mg./gal. and 250 respectively... Otherwise, just time going by... Bob Fenner>

? Sm. sys. stkg... 12/30/11
Thanks for all your useful advice!
<Please always include prev. corr. Am more and more feeble memory wise as time goes by>
I just bought a QT tank today after I lost my Royal Gramma. I'm not sure what the cause was but he did have unilateral PopEye and went downhill from there. Now I suspect my other inhabitants are headed for the same demise.
<Mmm, am not so sure. The one fish was damaged...>
They are 2 Ocellaris Tank-Bred Clowns, 2 PJ Cardinals, and 1 Canary Wrasse. The Wrasse usually comes up from the substrate in the morning, but hasn't come up all day. I noticed a couple white specs on the PJ Cardinals tailfin and a little discoloration on the clowns. None of them ate like they usually do and
they are not as active as before. Ammonia, Nitrite is zero and Nitrates are about 5 ppm. I just want to know if I should go for the QT and was thinking about a copper treatment, but I don't want to cause unneeded stress. I could use your advice, Thanks!
<Given what you have related, I would NOT move these fishes, NOR treat them w/ copper. Bob Fenner>

Question about mucus production 8/30/11
Hi :)
<Howsit Borja?>
Wondering if I have a problem or not.
I have a Centropyge bicolor introduced about a month ago. (I mentioned it in a post about its feeding tastes).
Doing well, still with fingers crossed because I know they sometimes have a dismal record. Now it's eating more than before, and no longer ignoring frozen Mysis or Krill Pacifica (I don't do brine shrimp at all) and New Life Spectrum "finicky eaters" and Ocean Nutrition formula 2. Also spends the day browsing the live rock and DSB surface (I have a DSB in the main tank) and eating.
I've noticed it's producing more mucus than normal. But not over the gills, but over the body. Not a lot, but can be seen depending on the light angle.
It's been like this for several days, and I'm, not seeing any weird behavior. Eats normally (now the smart ass gets a bit nervous when I come close to the tank because it's associated me to frozen food), doesn't show rapid breathing, no cloudy eyes, not reclusive at all (even thought the Z. flavescens bullied it for the first three days), no scratching at all (I have a webcam and I use to watch the aquarium while I'm away).
No torn fins or anything similar, either.
It visits the hairdresser's station sometimes, but the visits have become less frequent. During the first two weeks I saw it going several times to the Lysmata amboinensis, and opening a gill for it to poke. It hasn't done it again.
<Good that the service is there>
So, I don't know what to think. The rest of the fishes are fine. I remember I saw similar symptoms on my Z. flavescens when I brought it home (mid May), and it even scratched a couple of times, but I just let it be, as the fish was behaving normally, eating eagerly whatever I added, aware, always exploring the whole tank... It hasn't scratched again, looks plump, full color...
And the Centropyge looks fine as well. It hasn't lost color or temper...
Any ideas, or should I just let it be and watch? Maybe I could try to catch the fish and get a mucus sample, but I guess the resulting stress would be much worse.
<I wouldn't worry re... some fishes as individuals are "just slimier" than others at times>
The tank is a 87 gallon, with a 25 gallon sump, DSB (in the main tank), productive refugium, and nitrates are undetectable since April (begun setting up the tank in February), Ammonia has been undetectable since, (I saw a tiny bit of total ammonia per Seachem test, which is very sensitive, but just due to some hair algae dying off, I assume, and, for example, the Salifert test, which detects free ammonia, didn't detect anything), pH is between 8.3 and 8.4 maximum, 7.9 minimum, the tank has a skimmer, calcium reactor...
The tank is set up with a DSB, live rock leaving about two thirds of the sand surface exposed, some SPS and LPS corals,
<These might possibly have summat to do w/ mucus production>
and 6 Chromis viridis, 1 Neosynchiropus ocellatus, 1 Synchiropus splendidus, 1 Gramma loreto, 1 Nemateleotris decora, 1 Salarias fasciatus, 1 Macropharyngodon bipartitus, 1 Zebrasoma flavescens and the Centropyge bicolor.
(Regarding the dragonets and the Macropharyngodon, seems that my microfauna can cope with them, thanks to the DSB. Actually the Macropharyngodon, introduced with the Centropyge, was rather on the thin side and now it's rather plump).
<Ah good>
Thank you very much,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Follow-up Centropyge and mucus 8/30/11

Sorry, I forgot.
I don't feed them just meaty foods, I put a couple of clips with assorted dry algae every morning (I mix Julian Sprung's, Ocean Nutrition and TMC greens, reds, browns).
<Some meaty items are likely available (and of use) from your rock, substrate. BobF>

Blackish Outline on Fins, SW hlth. 4/26/11
I am concerned about my Vlamingi tang and a blackish outline on all of his fins. It has developed over the past couple days and I am very worried because I had a Flame Wrasse exhibit the same symptoms last week and he died
2 nights ago. The Vlamingi, much like the Flame did, is acting normal and eating well. I have been doing research to see if anyone has had the same experience and haven't found much at all. My tank is a 210 gallon reef. My water parameters are Temp:76, SG:1.025, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate:0.
<Mmm, what are you doing to keep NO3 zip?>
They are well feed and fat on a diet of NLS, Mysis, 2 different Angel Formulas, Homemade reef blend, Formula 2, Nori, Sprung's Red, Green, and Purple algae, and I frequently soak the food in Selcon or Zoecon alternating. I had introduce 4 Flame Wrasses about 2 months sans quarantine per your recommendation even though I was very hesitant because I do not put any fish into my tank without quarantine. I did so and now am regretting it as all my fish have been starting to show Ich for the past couple weeks, on and off, and seemingly getting a bit worse.
<From two months back? Not likely brought in w/ on the Cirrhilabrus>
It took me a little while, but I finally was able to tear down my 75 gallon (which I was doing anyway) and will now be using that as a quarantine for most of the fish. I am planning on starting to catch them today, not going to be easy.
My question is whether or not the black fins is a symptom of a specific disease that I am unaware of?
<Not a specific one, but indicative of some sort of stress, environmental... likely a chemical anomaly>
Or is the fish just showing stress that way?
<More this, yes>
How should I go about treating it if it is something different?
<Look to improving water quality... I'd be reading re RedOx, possibly adding an ozonizer here>
I am going
to be using PraziPro and Cupramine for treatment in quarantine for the Ich.
<... not quarantine, but treatment then>
Thanks much,
<See WWM re the O3. Bob Fenner>
Re: Blackish Outline on Fins 4/26/11
Hi Bob,
<Mr. Wolk>
Thank you for the quick response. I utilize a large skimmer(Aqua C EV-400), water changes(every 2 weeks about 40 gallons), and a large DSB that takes up a majority of my 125 gallon sump. I double checked and it hasn't been quite 2 months yet since I introduced the wrasses, but I am pretty sure the Ich was brought in on the wrasses as they showed a spot occasionally the first couple weeks and now it has slowly gotten worse.
<Did you dip/bath these enroute? I would>
All my other fish were treated and quarantined before going into the tank. Other thing I forgot about my water parameters is my Ph being 8.3. I do not have access to a RedOx meter, but I have to think my tanks RedOx is pretty high because I employ lots of circulation and filtration.
<Can only be ascertained by testing. Again, I would>
I do actually have an old ozonizer that I have been looking to setup,
but it needs a new power supply and seems to be an uncommon one. I will have to get that up and running.
Thanks for correcting me, I meant treatment in a quarantine tank.
Thank you for your help,
<Mmm, if you had another system, I'd move the Naso to it... Am concerned that this is some sort of endogenous issue... a bacterial (likely Vibrio) poisoning. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Blackish Outline on Fins 4/28/11

Hi Bob,
<Big D>
Yes, I always freshwater dip before placing anything into quarantine or my display tank. I have now moved all my fish into 75 and 29 gallon QT's. In the past day the Vlamingi tangs top and tail fins are starting to fray a little and the darkening of all fins seems to be getting worse.
<Again... the env.. Moving all if poss.>
All fish are still acting normal and eating. I started copper treatment using Cupramine for the Ich.
<... I would not do this. Just further stress>
What do you recommend for the bacterial infection if you indeed believe it could be Vibrio? I have been reading, but haven't found much for treatment of Vibrio. I read that it is gram negative, will gram negative
killing antibiotics like Nitrofurazone work or do I need an oral treatment?
<IF all mal-affected can't be moved, the raising of RedOx, use of good grade carbon... B>
Re: Blackish Outline on Fins 4/28/11
<Mr. W>
I am sorry that I do not understand, but you have me very confused. You say to move them all like I planned on. They all have been moved. Then at the bottom you say they shouldn't be moved. I also previously stated that I was going to move them to QT and start treating the Ich with copper and you
didn't say you wouldn't do it. Now you are saying you wouldn't do it after I already did.
<Ahh! Sorry for the confusion. I often don't recall much of prev. comm.. I do think you should leave all in the isolation system for now, but do pay close attention to at least ammonia, nitrate accumulation, and I would NOT treat w/ chelated or not copper>
Am I supposed to just do nothing but provide good water quality?
<Basically, yes>
Having spent all day yesterday pulling my tank apart to get everything apart I can't say that I want to dump my fish back into my system where there is better water than in QT. I moved them to QT to treat them because good water quality did not seem to be working and I didn't want to sit and watch all my fish slowly die. But that is what I am supposed to do?
I apologize, I am just very confused and stressed by this whole situation.
Thank you for your help,
<Again, my apologies for the lack of clarity. BobF>
Re: Blackish Outline on Fins 4/29/11
Dustin, have been bothered by my lack of providing logic, hopefully useful related input re your situation. The use of copper compounds is really only useful for possibly treating external protozoan infestations; and I don't think (though it would be great if you had a microscope, could do a few scrapings, look/see) that what you're experiencing (actually your fishes) is Protozoan. Again, I do believe the issue IS likely environmental.
"Something" in their main/display... and this may well be a type of "wipe out syndrome", notably Vibrio related. We had a recent similar report: http://wetwebmedia.com/toxictkendof.htm
Does this make sense? Not that you agree w/ the guessed diagnosis, but that you understand what I'm getting at? BobF>
Re: More Re: Blackish Outline on Fins 4/29/11

Hi Bob,
I appreciate your continued concern. The reason I started treating Cupramine was for the Ich that I know is present on the fish. I think the fact that it became a problem is indeed from an underlying cause, like something you are mentioning.
I reviewed the link you sent and a few other pages, but will continue reading more. From my readings thus far, I have not read a situation like mine. The others are all overcrowded, under/inappropriately filtered, high nitrates, lots of algae, and other issue tanks. I don't have any of those problems. The only bit of algae in my tank is a very small spot where hair algae grew right when I started the tank(9 months ago) and it hasn't receded or grown since. I just don't know what is environmentally the problem.
<Me neither>
I assume, based on your statements, that Vibrio is introduced
<Actually, this genus of bacteria is pretty much in all aquatic environments... "just" becomes too predominant in some cases... mostly those w/ inadequate maintenance... and poisons other life w/ its metabolites>
and kills everything and it is just a matter of time. It is just hard for me to do nothing and sit back and watch all my fish die.
<I... do understand>
I have never heard from anyone I know of a complete wipeout in a tank that doesn't have poor water quality.
<Actually, am sure you mean/t the opposite>
When you say that moving them to a new system is the only way to save them, how long do I have to wait to add fish back into the infected system?
Thank you,
<Welcome. BobF>

Lost 4 fish in new system, another sick 3/28/11
Hi there!
This is my first time writing WWM with a question, though I read your content frequently and much appreciate all your great advice. My question today is related to a Naso tang with some discoloration and peeling skin on the lips, though I'd like to give you some background information as the system is less than a year old and I have lost 4 fish already.
<Mmm, let's hurry here>
The system is 300 gallon display, 40 gallon sump, 40 gallon refugium. With powerheads I have about 20x turnover, I keep the salinity constant at 1.024, ammonia, nitrites 0, nitrates nearly undetectable.
<By what means are the last (NO3) rendered thus? Here I suspect some sort of toxicity/poisoning>
I have 300 lbs of live rock, Eshopps psk 300 protein skimmer, deep sand bed, and have recently begun running a poly-filter in my bubble diffuser for the reasons I'm about to go into.
The tank is about 6 months old, I have a Naso Tang, Firefly Goby, 2 B/G Chromis, a Mandarin, Flamefin Pygmy Angel, and a Lawnmower Blenny in the main display, and in my 10 gallon hospital I am treating my Tomato Clown and two Black Ocellaris Clowns for white spot (I was not able to determine if it was Brooklynella or Ich, but the three of them get along in the quarantine, are eating, and show no more signs of the spots). I'm treating them with chelated copper sulfate for about a week now and would like to keep them in quarantine for at least another two weeks.
<Quinine would be better here. Clownfishes fare poorly w/ Cu exposure>
I had a Hippo Tang in the main display for about three months, but it was plagued over and over with Ich. I recently moved it to the quarantine tank from which it jumped out and dried up like a potato chip on my floor. I now realize that this was probably not the best course of action, though I did not think it would ever beat the Ich if constantly being barraged with parasites that were stressing it and in turn causing more parasites to take hold.
Before I get into my most recent issue, I should also mention that I had a Lemonpeel Angel, two Anthias, and a Powder Blue Tang all perish in my main display within the last two months.
<These fish species, particularly the last "appreciate" more seasoned systems (older, better established)>
I was able to fish out the body of the Lemonpeel and one Anthias, but not the other two fish. No ammonia spike was apparent after the death, though a moderate algae bloom occurred two days later (to be expected). Unfortunately I did not quarantine these fish before putting them in the main display, a mistake I will be sure to avoid from here on out.
I suspect that the Lemonpeel, which never ate while in my care, was inflicted with disease before entering my tank and may have been responsible for any number of problems I am having now, including the one I am writing about today, which is the Naso Tang has some lip discoloration and slight peeling.
The Naso is pretty young, about 3.5" mouth to tail, and has been the hardiest and most active fish in the tank since I set it up. It has never fallen ill until now, nor has it ever had a single spot of Ich despite the Hippo's constant battle with the parasite. Anyways, the other day during feeding I noticed that her upper lip was not fully yellow, but instead sort of pale yellow with some small red and white spots, almost like mini sores.
I also noticed on close inspection that there was some skin peeling on the lips too. Not even enough for her to bite down on, just tiny flakes stuck to her lip. I've seen much worse, and in fact today the lip already seems a little bit better, but I also read that mouth fungus can be deadly to fish,
so this was cause for concern (I'm not sure if it's fungal or bacterial).
<Secondary in any case very likely>
Given that the Lemonpeel died in there and seemed ill the whole time, I'm worried that some disease has hitchhiked to the Naso. I already have three fish in a small hospital tank and since the Hippo jumped out of the hospital I'm weary to add another cell-mate. The Naso is still eating heavily and swimming like crazy, and also hangs around the cleaner shrimp who seem to pick at his lips and other areas, even areas without visible afflictions.
<Ah, good>
So, given all of that information (I know it's a lot), what do you think
my best course of action should be at this point?
<Leave the Naso in place>
I am personally inclined to leave her in the main tank. It's not cluttered in there, the water quality is good by measurable standards, and the lip seems to be on the mend.
However, given my recent fish losses I'm also inclined to think that I don't really know what I'm talking about, which is why I'd like to defer to the experts on this one.
Thanks a lot!
<And do what you can to boost all's immune systems (HUFA, vitamin supplements applied to the food and water). Bob Fenner>
Re: Lost 4 fish in new system, another sick 3/28/11
Thanks Bob!
<Welcome John>
Wow, wasn't expecting such a speedy reply. I was measuring the water quality like crazy after the other fish died and it was fine then, but I have not tested it in about a week, so I'll be sure to double check that when I get home. I do weekly 10% water changes with RO so I don't suspect that those levels will have changed.
<Not likely>
As for the clowns, should I change their medication?
<T'were they mine, I would... likely one dose of CP (Chloroquine Phosphate) will "do it">
I do 10% daily water changes for the hospital tank.
<Mmm, not likely sufficient. I would be testing for NH4OH, NO2 daily re>
Could I just start substituting quinine for copper during water changes even though I've been treating with copper and it seems to be working?
<Mmm, no... read on WWM re quinine cpd.s, use. BobF>

Infecting parasites 11/18/10
Hello Crew,
Got a quick question for you. I recently bought a beautiful Bi-color angelfish for my aquarium. For the first few days all went well until I noticed him rubbing against the rocks inside the tank.
<... no quarantine>
I looked as close as I could and there is
<are... consistency in number>
no white spots, he's not breathing rapidly, and he was eating fine. Two weeks later (today) I saw him resting at the bottom not eating and hardly moving. I've noticed my Coral Beauty and my Hippo tang are both flashing against rocks. Again no visual signs of any parasite. So I whipped up a Formalin 3 dip and dipped all 3 fish for 30min. a piece.
<Too long>
I don't see the fish rubbing against anything and the Bi-color looks like he's felling <feeling> a bit better. Still not eating but it's only been about 12 hours. What I'm asking is what could've been causing the fish to
act like this and should I still be weary.
<Quite a few protozoan possibilities, flukes, even just stress and/or skin irritation from numerous sources>
What steps should I take to make sure I don't have an outbreak.
<Umm, really too late... optimizing, keeping the system stable. There are folks who adhere to the benefit/s of "pro" treatment w/ adding vitamins, HUFAs et al. to foods, water to promote health>
In case you're asking my water parameters are( 0 Nitrites, 0 Ammonia, 15-20 Nitrates and 8.2 PH).
Thank you for your time,
<I do hope your fishes stay well. Bob Fenner>

Flame Fish has lower jaw missing. 11/13/10
I recently noticed on my flame fish
<... an Apogonid? Centropyge?>
that he had a injury to his lower jaw.
It looked like a slit or cut in it down the middle of the lower jaw. He was attempting to eat so we just monitored and hoped for the best. Now it has been about 1 week and his entire lower jaw has "disappeared".
<Perhaps decomposition>
He is still attempting to eat, but most things pop back out of the mouth area since there is no lower jaw. Should I quarantine him or leave him be and still hope that the jaw "grows" back ??
<I'd leave this fish where it's at. Bob Fenner>

WWM Disease pages 8/10/10
<Howdy Simon>
This is just a thought, but I've been perusing WWM for the billionth time, and I keep noticing your comment re: 'Treatment chart' for marines...
<Oh... yes>
I do think this would be a useful addition, but also what about with it a pictorial section somewhere where all of the photo's of diseased & injured animals are kept in the same place, an 'unhealthy fish pictorial database', with captions to what each are, and links to the relevant sections within WWM etc. There are many such photo's on WWM, but they are buried within the FAQ's, maybe if someone has the time they could be picked through and grouped up, with all new ones that come along added as time goes by creating a unique ID guide.
<I do agree... and would even go beyond (perhaps waayyy) and suggest a tie-in of a reference area, one for materia medicae, another for video/kinetic imagery for diagnoses, an advertisers section for books, gear, medicines, services for health issues...>
If you think this is a good idea then I will volunteer for it if there is no-one else,
but I won't be able to start until after Christmas as I have a few other projects on the go at the moment!
<I'll bet! Have seen your new home, giant tank notices...>
<I will help you in what ways I can, may with this work... I devised a similar (card catalog, 3 by 5) reference work in the early seventies for an employer when I worked in the livestock wholesale end of aquatics here in
San Diego. BobF>
Re: WWM Disease pages
You know what would be cool would be an animated "if this, click here, if not, click there" thing that stepped queriers through a bunch of options until it reached a diagnosis.
<Oh yes>
Alternatively, this could be done with HTML.
Either way, you'd end up with a link to the relevant WWM article.
Cheers, Neale
<Am looking forward to the process. B>
Re: WWM Disease pages
Whilst I could make a stab at the freshwater one, I wouldn't be the person for the marine one. Who among the WWM crew would be prepared to sketch out the binomial key for that? A supply of suitable images would be a plus.
<Mmm, likely a few of us... and yes re images for sure>
Do you have Ed Noga's book?
<Oh yes... in fact am at a fish health conference with Ed this coming weekend in Maine
Cheers, Neale
<And you, B>
Re: WWM Disease pages
Looks a good schedule. Nice to see students -- I assume MSc, PhD -- will be interacting with the "old lags".
<Can we settle on aging lads?>
I certainly remember with fondness some of these occasions as a student.
Cheers, Neale
<Mmm, Neale, from your pix, turns of phrase, you don't "appear" to be all that olde... B>

Med./s for scratching 7/19/10
Hello, and thanks again for the help. I was wondering if there was a broad spectrum medication you might suggest for a tank with several fish of "twitchy" swimming and some off and on scratching.
<Mmm, no. Some such behavior is to be expected, i.e., is natural... Too much should be investigated as to cause. Can be straight environmental (most common), rather than a pathogenic involvement>
No real visible signs of ich or symptoms such as cloudy eyes or frayed fins. No spots or visible parasites. Just the erratic swimming and the scratching on the rocks. It's a 150 gallon tank; parameters are all in range with no ammonia or nitrites and nitrates reading at 10 or less. PH is stable as well. Thanks.
Jamie Brenner
<Mmm... gosh, too much to speculate... For now, as you can commit time, please peruse here:
the second tray on down. Bob Fenner>

puffer with white plaques on eyes... Plethora of set up, stocking, treatment errors 3/29/2010
I have a 150 gal. 5 week new set up.
<... too soon to be adding fishes>
Cycled with 15 pounds live rock, few damsels, and crushed coral substrate. LFS checked water and OK'ed for fish. A large Blue Dogfaced Puffer, had been on hold for us for 5 weeks. They said all fish have to go in at same time since he's territorial. (big mistake). in went med. Lunar Wrasse, lg. Majestic Butterfly and lg. Garibaldi.
<This last is a cold water animal. Needs to be in a different environment>
All looked well so next day in excitement and worried about territorial aggression I added med. Powder Blue Tang,
<Mistake... this species requires very well-established settings>
med. Greenbird Wrasse, small Goby, Blenny, Black and white clown and med. Purple Tang.
Two days later added corals and two anemones.
<Is this a joke?>
Then all went downhill. White salty looking crystals on tang, butterfly, garibaldi and wrasse, but all were eating.
<Likely Cryptocaryon...>
The Puffer seemed ok still eating but was squinting his eyes. I thought the anemones may have stung his eyes. I did nothing that day (I didn't know it was a bad problem). Next day everything was worse and now the Puffer's eyes had a white coating on them making it difficult for him to see. He stopped eating that day. LFS said it was Ick add CU.
<Likely the first, but the second... deadly to the corals, anemones... too toxic for the tangs, puffers>
I did, but next morning Garibaldi and Greenbird Wrasse were dead.
I started lowering the salinity and added a uv sterilizer (36 watt)
<Can't be run with copper present...>
and increasing temp. Next AM the butterfly was dead and Lunar Wrasse died next AM. I then came across literature that read Puffers are to sensitive to CU.
<Ahh... yes>
His skin never appeared to have the white salty crystals on it but each day his eyes had another layer of white plaque added to them. Today is day three of it and he can't see and has not eaten in this many days. I bought
and moved him to a 40 gal hospital tank with external aqua clear filter.
Added penicillin and Bifuran plus (Nitrofurazone and Furazolidone).
<? What for?>
At first I thought his eye problem was from the ?Ick. But two days in the copper water yielded no improvement.
<Actually added to the opacity>
Perhaps its secondary bacterial?
All the smaller fish are still in main tank and showing no signs of stress and are still eating. We are so attached to
the puffer, (would visit him several times a week over the six weeks prior to getting him). I know it is my ignorance that has caused all of this.
<You are correct here>
We are desperate to heal the Puffer and prevent any further suffering.
What is on his eyes, I cant find any info. and have been searching for days non-stop. Picture attached is from day 1 of white eyes. They are much worse now.
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptpuffs.htm
and the linked files above... Till you understand your current position and options. As you will find, many others have made the same errors, been faced with similar challenges. What's that saying? "Look then/before you leap"... take your time going forward. Bob Fenner>
Ick in 150 gal tank
put him in 40 gal QT
his eyes have white plaques he cant see and won't eat
Did that happen to yours
<?... Keep reading. BobF>

Thank you. I have been reading the puffer crypt link you suggested. However I find a lot of conflicting advice. Yesterday moved the puffer to the 40 gal QT with the previously mentioned meds. that you questioned. I am doing
a water change today on the QT and main tank with the smaller fishes (who by the way seem fine). The puffers eyes are the same (thick white plaques).
<Likely from the treatment and Crypt>
He still cant see. CU and Formalin are to toxic for him, Quinine may not even be a proven cure.
<Is your best bet here>
Today he has a slightly mucusy stringy film coming off his skin. I am continuing to read to seek a correct cure. But am still confused as to what to medicate him with in the QT or should I give him FW baths or FW baths with meds.
<See WWM re Quinine cpd.s>
OH please help. here is a pic today. The water is yellow even after the 50% water change today from the Bifuran plus med. I put in yesterday. By the way the Penicillin was in case the white on eyes was from a secondary
bacterial infection and the Bifuran in case it was secondary fungal.
<These are of no use here>
Since it is on his eyes I cannot get a sample of it to view under microscope or test in micro. lab. at local college.
<Nor this really. Please keep reading, cogitating... and order either CP or QS... B>
re: PUFFER WITH WHITE PLAQUES ON EYES... not reading 3/30/10
I dont know what CP or QS is...
<Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm

Re: Unidentifiable disease **URGENT**, reading, understanding more urgent 3/26/10
Hi Mr. Fenner,
I am fairly certain it is not Crypt, as it does not fall off/disappear off the fish and re-emerge, it stays on the fish and slowly increase in numbers,
<... can't tell assuredly from this description. Need microscopic examination of a slime sample>
and the fish did not show ANY sign of scratching/dashing/breathing rapidly.
<Also not salient>
Also, it has been more than 14-16 days until a second tang show sign of the same symptom. From my experience, if it is white spot/ich/crypt, most of my fish would have been infected by now.
<Not necessarily, no>
Second, biofiltration should not be an issue as I have been testing water on a daily basis and fish did not show sign of stress.
I cannot ID the disease at this point, that is why I am very very confused by this. I have tried CU, but not effective. That is the reason I would like to try Antibacterial.
<... no... Read where you were referred. Stop with the copper... you're poisoning your fishes, system>
I need your opinion on what type/brand of general antibiotics should I try.
<... Posted on WWM, and stated here: NONE>
I believed this should be bacterial.
<... you may be correct, but adding antibiotics, antibacterials to marine systems is almost always a waste of time/resources, and frequently destructive rather than helpful>
Also is there a way to simply ID if the disease is viral/bacterial/protozoan/fungal?
<Oh! Yes!!! Do you have the funds to order/buy a copy of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment"?
I would and soon>
Please help and I value your expert input.
<There is scant/some coverage of such Identification, treatment on WWM...
I'd peruse where you were referred before... the trays toward the lower half of the page. BobF>

Re: Unidentifiable disease **URGENT**... not reading 3/27/10
Mr. Fenner,
Thank you for your quick reply. I owned the book you mentioned and it suggest me to buy a microscope. I have some university experience with these and I will get one this weekend and try my luck on those.
<Not luck... learning, applied knowledge>
Last question, Can you suggest me a general antibiotic for marine use or point me to a product?
<One last time... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down to Medicines. B>

Purple Back Dottyback Questions... Diseased sys. 10/14/09
Hello there
My names is Meagan, I recently started up my first 29 gallon saltwater fish tank. I got 2 Damsels a 3 strip one and a blue one. Well the 3 strip Damsel got ick and also tail rot so we took her out.
<... the system is infested>
Upon doing so, We had to move all the rocks out of the fish tank. The day prior we Got our 3rd fish a Purple Back dotty. Well, she hid into one of the rocks we took out. We didn't know and the rock was out of the water for 5 minutes. She seemed fine and still breathing yet wasn't swimming around like "normal". Its been 2 days and she's still hiding out but now She's missing her back Tail! is this due to stress and will she grow it back? or is it from the other fish and she's doomed to die?
<... Can't tell from the data presented. But you should read here:
and the linked files above for background, a beginning of how you might proceed, the sorts of information we look for in helping others. Bob Fenner>

Fluffy white stuff Crypt?.... .... .... 7/29/09
I recently wrote to you regarding my Lamarck Angel about what we decided was Crypt. It progressively got worse until the fish was covered with white fluffy spots
<? Crypt usually appears as discrete dots...>
and then resolved. There is not one patch on her body that I can see. I'm not sure if that's worth anything. Just about all my other fish now have the same fluffy white globs on their fins, heads, and bodies. I've read
this is not contagious so I must be stressing these guys out right?
<?... Is very contagious... deadly...>
My nitrates are starting to climb. They went from under 20ppm to 40ppm.
<... see WWM re>
I feed me tank three times per day. I've been rinsing the food as advised.
I've also added an extra light 175 MH. That's giving the tank a nice BGA bloom.
<... Nice? This biota is toxic>
I added the light because I wanted to add a few corals.
<... You need to read>
I've been doing water changes every other day. I have a 155g, and 60g sump. I usually change 15g at a time. I'm waiting for my new skimmer to arrive. I just ordered a Vertex 250. I hope it fairs well. I had horrible Jebo piece of junk that broke. I have been trying to keep up with the nitrates by doing frequent water changes. It's not working. Is my bioload is too high?
Majestic Angel
Lamarck Angel
Flame Angel
Bi-color Angel
Saddleback BF
Vagabond BF
Auriga BF
Latticed BF (2)
Banded Sleeper Goby
Royal Gramma
Tomato Clown (2)
hermit crabs
urchin (2)
<... keep reading. Bob Fenner>

infection? of copper banded butterfly fish 7/28/09
<Howdy... "act excited and you'll be excited, Bob">
Thank you all for such a great site for us novices, we appreciate you.
I've checked the FAQs and the web in general but find no comments about a white "mass" on the lower jaw of my copper banded butterfly fish. I first thought it was food stuck on the mouth but now notice that it is enlarging so I'm concerned about contagion and of course the health of this fish.
<A pic?>
I called the LFS where I bought this fish and was advised to net it, remove it from the general population and treat it with Neosporin.
<? Nah>
I asked what kind and was not advised that there is fish-specific Neosporin. There was no suggestion about where to house this fish in the interim but certainly I wouldn't add it back to the display tank until it improved.
Is there hope for this fish?
Is his problem really a problem? If it's an infection is it likely contagious?
<Can't tell from the data presented, but doubtful that "treating" it will be efficacious... Perhaps this is just a transitory viral expression... Or something else that will just "go" of its own accord. Likely any handling,
moving would be deleterious... Perhaps the addition of a cleaner organism would be of use... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnrfaqs.htm>
Thanks for "being there".
Jayne in Tucson
<Glad to share. Siaynoq! Bob Fenner>

Quarantine: one sick one well 4/19/09
Hi Crew,
I have two fish in a 20 gallon quarantine tank, a Chalk Bass and a Firefish. In the first day or two, I noticed some scratching by the Chalk Bass, and so reduced the specific gravity to about 1.011.
I have not seen significant scratching since, and I have never seem the Firefish scratch.
However, I have gradually become aware that the Chalk Bass is not healthy.
First I started to notice that his color was fading, then I noticed that he does not hold his fins well, then I noticed that he is looking emaciated.
<Stress, the hyposalinity...>
I can see no other symptoms of disease. I have been feeding finely grated frozen shrimp, and both fish eat well. I'm now 18 days into the quarantine, and it looks like I have one sick Chalk Bass and one healthy Firefish. My question is -- what are my options, and what would you do?
<I'd likely summarily pH-adjusted FW dip/bath both and place in the main display.
Reading re: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the first tray.
Bob Fenner>

Fish with all kinds of illness! Scant data, no reading -- 04/07/09
Hello WWM Crew-
<Mmm, one, yes?>
My Name is Terry. I have a few problems. I have fish with white ich, black ich, and something making my eels seem to (choke).
I performed freshwater dips on everything yesterday with no medication, only ph, temp, aerated, adjusted freshwater. Today the fish are swimming better, yet their seems to be some deterioration from the back of the fish starting upward. By deterioration I mean the fins seem to have little pieces gone, and not like a nip, but rather a slight threading. Their is no obvious aggression between the fish. I wanted to know what might be causing this, and also if their is any medication I can dose the display with to end this mess without harming my eels. I do have a FOWLR system that is 150 gallons, no detectable nitrite or ammonia, but I do have .08 nitrate.
<What units?>
Ph is 8.4, temp is 76 degrees. I use metal halides for lighting, as I do want to some day have soft coral in this tank.
<... could be some sort of negative interaction here>
Is their any medication in which I can add that will help my fish and be safe to one day add coral?
<Depends on what the root problem/s is/are here>
Any other suggestion are welcome. Thanks a bunch.
<... For you to read... Let's start here:
and the linked files above... to give you ideas re this (allelopathy) possibility, and a glance at what sorts of data/info. we're looking for...
Need to know your set-up, history of operation, foods/feeding, livestock mix, water quality tests, maintenance procedures... Bob Fenner>

Re: Fish with all kinds of illness! 4/9/09
My tank is a 150 gallon display, with 50 gallon refugium. I use a Corallife skimmer,
<I'd upgrade>
and a Phosban reactor,
<Mmm, how much HPO4 is still present... Need some>
I also have a penguin bio wheel for carbon input.?I do 40 gallon water changes every month. I have a 8' porcupine puffer, a 4' blue angel' and zebra eel, snowflake eel, 3-2' damsels, 5' Naso tang, 6' Sailfin tang, and 1 neon goby. Inverts include 12 turbo snails. I feed these fish twice a day, excluding the eels which eat twice a week. I feed formula one and two flakes. I feed krill, mysis, brine, mussel, marine angel formula, Aqueon pellets. This tank has been running for about two years, and never had any illness until about 4 months ago when I ordered a fish online from marines gardens, which was the angel. I normally do water tests every week, but recently have been doing them every other day due to the illness. I'm exhausted with this problem as I have been battling it for about 3 months,
and I've read countless hours online trying to find the solution. Your previous Cnidarian thread you left didn't seem to help me in any way.
<Mmm, you don't have Cnidarians after all? I mis-took your statement to mean you had these presently>
I am more worried about the disease than one day having coral, and the site format was unorganized and visually confusing.
<How would you improve it, WWM?>
I would however like to know if dosing with parinox
<?: http://www.inceptapharma.com/medicine/generic_detail.php?id=262
Why would you use this compound? To answer your question, I do not know what this material will, might do long term>
would keep me from one day? being able to keep? thriving corals in the tank.
All water parameters read the same as last post, yet the fish are still slipping. Thanks for your time.
<There are protocols archived for treating all (specific, group) ills of marine fishes on WWM:
Treating a few at a time can be trying... Do you have a microscope, some basic staining equipment? Are you able to diagnose what you actually have here? BobF>

Emperor Angelfish hlth., Tang and Isopods. 4/6/2009
<Hi Adam>
I have had an 4 inch Emperor Angel changeling about 2 weeks now and he is eating and perfect except for a dark like small black covering right at the end of 4 of his dorsal spines. It looks exactly like fungus but I don't want to stress him by taking him out and rubbing them off. Do you think they will get worse or at some stage fall off?
<A picture would be helpful here, as well as relevant information - tank size, water parameters, etc.>
Again something I have never seen I have a yellow tang with other fish in a different tank and one morning he had a "tick" about 5 or 6mm long and about 3mm wide, grey in colour with two very basic black eyes.
<Isopods - read here and the linked files at the top of the page.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/isopoda.htm >
By the afternoon he had dropped off, gladly as it was on his ventral find and I didn't fancy getting spiked by the tang if I caught him to remove it.
My tanks are running on living rock as I live by The Great Barrier Reef so they come with a lot of animals on them, some wanted some not. Do you have any idea what is was and do you think it will breed or present another problem.
<Read the pages linked above, all shall be answered.>
<My pleasure>

Marine/Set-Up/Disease 2/26/09 Dear Sir, <Devesh> In Nov 08, I bought a 1.5 Mts <?><<Meters James... length of the sys. RMF>> marine tank (approx 580 L water). The tank has a under table filtration system which has a glass cabinet with 5 chambers through which the water passes till it is pumped in the 5th chamber back in the tank. It is manufactured by Kakei in China. <Mmm, not familiar with this manufacturer.> The supplier could not explain me how to set-up & told me to put Bio-balls, Zeolite, Carbon & ceramic rings. I arranged the filter as below 1st chamber Bio-balls (where the water overflows the tank & falls in this chamber) 2nd chamber Protein Skimmer (3200 power - Jebo 520) 3rd chamber ceramic rings 4th chamber Zeolite & carbon <Using zeolite during the cycling process in your aquarium filter has the side effect of lengthening the time it takes to complete the aquarium nitrogen cycle.> 5th chamber only to pump the water back in tank. <Sounds like you are on the right track. If it were me, I'd swap chambers one and two.> I am putting recommended doze of bacterlife (beneficiary bacteria for filter) once a week. <Should not be necessary at this stage. Did you set this up in November or just bought it in November?> Please suggest if this set-up is OK or I should shuffle. I find clown fish, goby & damsel OK but when I put butterfly fish or angel fish they get white spot on second day & don't feed leading to death. <Your tank is a little new yet for putting delicate fish such as angels and butterflies in the system. Do research fish before buying, ensure you have the skill level and can provide the necessary requirements for keeping a particular fish/invertebrate. You also did not state what your water parameters are, if live rock is used, etc. It sounds to me like you are new at this, and if so, do read here and related articles listed in header. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marineSetUp.htm I would not add any more fish until you get a better understanding of how marine systems function and how to maintain such. You also need to eliminate the Protozoans in your tank causing the white spot disease (Ich). Until this is done, do not add any more animals, they will be at risk. Read/learn here and related articles/FAQ's on this parasitical disease and it's control. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm The link below is an index to content available on our site. Do read/learn before diving any deeper. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm> Best Regards, <Cheers. James (Salty Dog)> Devesh Dubai, UAE

Gold Rim Tang... fish disease/health Hi, I recently, 2 1/2 weeks ago bought a gold rim tang. I brought him home and put him in a 10 gallon bare bottomed tank with a heater, an airstone, and an EcoAqualizer running in it. <What is your experience with this last? Do the magnets "do" something you can discern?> The temperature is kept at about 79 degrees. Some of the other fish in the store where I bought him had what looked like ich. <Mmm, easily spread> Anyways, I did the transfer method on him, I actually did a 75 percent water change everyday, using water out of my established reef tanks, and then every third day transferred him to a completely sterile tank. <Yikes... should have waited a few weeks more> I was seeing a few spots on him but otherwise the fish looked and acted completely normal. It is eating a large piece of the algae sheet along with mysis shrimp daily. About the 6 or 7th day that I had him he really started glancing/itching frantically. <Ooops!> Sometimes for 10-15 minutes at a time. I was able to locate at a local petstore a product called complete cure which has Praziquantel and metronidazole in it. It says to use the product 1 time and at 48 hours to add a 2nd package and after another 48 hours to do a water change and you should be good. <Mmm, not likely> I added the package to the water and within hours the fish quit itching. I was feeling a little better, but within 20 hours it was scratching like mad again. I did a 90 percent water change and added another package. Again within hours he quit itching. <Curing the one part of the infestation... while others are developing...> Twenty four hours later he was itching again. <You might want to read re Cryptocaryon life cycle> I did a tank transfer at that time and added more of the Praziquantel product. <... treats "worms" of all sorts... Not Protozoans...> It is 2 mg per gallon as mixed. The following day all was well. I saw no spots and no itching was observed. I again did 75 percent water changes for the next 2 days. On the third day after having no spots or itching it started again. I did a water change and added more of the Prazi. The following morning the fish is absolutely loaded with these things. They look similar to ich but are more elongated and you can see them hanging off the fish. <? Really? Could you send a well-resolved pic of appropriate size?> He's not scratching a whole lot right now, is still eating well but he looks awful. I prepared him a freshwater bath and put him in it for 4 1/2 minutes which he tolerated very well. I also did a scraping on him and put it under the microscope but really don't know what I'm looking for. I did take a picture of the thing that looked suspicious under the microscope but it's way over the size limit that you suggest on your website. <How large? Please crop a bit and send> I was also able to get a picture of the fish with the spots on him. <Where is it?> I'm quite frustrated with this hole procedure. I've had him 2 1/2 weeks now and am no further ahead than I was when I bought him. When I went back to the place where I bought the fish to look for Prazi pro or something similar they tried to sell me some pepper cure. <Ridiculous... am sure we agree> They didn't even know what Praziquantel was. They continue to put fish in a system that infects the hole lot of them. It's very sad. <Agreed as well... Talk with the manager... owner if you can... Go elsewhere> Most of the fish I'm sure are dead within days. The others are like mine, hanging in there with a very frustrated owner. The only good thing is, I learned earlier on to quarantine my fish or I would be even more frustrated then I am now. Thanks for any help you can give me. <Let's see... how far "back" to start? Please read ScottF's expose here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and the linked files above... And... really... here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm My general presentation on what disease is... Bob Fenner>

Fish disease dilemma Hello Bob, or whomever may be able to help! <Howsit?> ?????????????? I have read over your site to try and find the answer to my question, however I could not search forever because I am in a bit of an emergency, (I'm sure you've heard the story). I have a 200 gallon tank and I would like to begin by giving you my parameters and stocking list. For the past two years my water parameters have been solid 0's for phosphates, nitrites, and minimal nitrate problems. Ph also 8.4, temperature runs at a constant 78 degrees. My current inhabitants? of at least the past year are: ?????????????????????? Red tail trigger, harlequin tusk, porcupine puffer, tomato/ocellaris clown, Naso/powder???? blue/Sailfin tangs, zebra/snowflake eels. ???????????? Last week, I had an unfortunate loss of a newly acquired Queen Angel. Unfortunately, this lead to several of my other fish acting weird (scratching and twitching convulsively). I noticed some spots on some of the fish, and identified it as ich. Ich is a common occurrence on my powder blue tang, but rarely gets hold on my other fish. When they quit eating three days ago, I decided it was time for some action. I removed all of my fish and placed them into 50, 20, and 10 gallon quarantine tanks dosed with Coppersafe. At first this seemed to be doing the trick, every fish lost the ich, and regained it's appetite, except for my prized harlequin tusk. After three days he started to twitch again. I decided it was time for a drastic measure, so I freshwater dipped him with no medication. <Mmm, not so drastic> At first I thought it was too late after returning him to the tank, <... would just get reinfested> because he just laid there with rapid gill movement, however after a couple of minutes he got up, and white strands of some type of worms I'm guessing began to come out of his gills and mouth. I believe this to be a parasite of some sort, so I began looking up facts and treatments. I read that Coppersafe does not treat internal parasites, therein lie my questions. Is it safe to do a water change (if so how much) and add some medication to the tanks for internal parasites. <Mmm. likely so> If it is what medication should I specifically use. <... depends on what the/se parasites actually are... A vermifuge for worms... something else for Protozoans for instance... You need a 'scope...> I left my zebra and snowflake eels in the display tank because of the Coppersafe treatment, will they also need to be treated for internal parasites, and if so with what treatment? <Again... this all rests on discovering/discerning what the trouble actually is... if Flukes, Tapes... these tend to be quite species to family specific...> My last question is whenever I get all this tragedy cleared up what steps/medications can I take to insure that whenever I do get a new queen angel it does not introduce anything to my other fish/tank. <... quarantine... reading... no "shot-gun" approach advised> Thank you for your time and helpful advice to the average aquarist. ????????????????????????????????? -Terry Baldwin <Terry... You'd do well to invest some time, money perhaps in getting/reading Ed Noga's work (i.e. Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment), and/or cursorily scanning the many articles and FAQs files on WWM re fish pathology. Bob Fenner>

Re: Fish disease dilemma, using WWM Bob, Thanks for the quick response. I believe I have identified the parasite as flukes possibly. It is tough to determine. Is there any treatment which treats multiple internal parasites at once, safely with a water change of the copper contaminated water. <?> How much water should be changed percent wise What treatment is safe for the eels? <Please go here: http://wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm Read through instructions, Search with the terms/strings: "Fluke Identification" "Treating multiple internal parasites" "Using Copper, Water Changes" "Safe Treatments, Eels" and Read the cached views. B>

Re: Fish disease dilemma... 1/25/09 Thank you for the links Mr. Fenner, <I do hope/trust you read them> ??????? I spent about 4 hours reading through different situations and what not with eels, fish, and disease. However, I feel that my situation is different than these, and without holding you accountable for what you say, I would plainly like to know what you would do if you were in my situation. What medications would you use for internal parasitic worms in general, <... this is posted... go back... read re Prazi-quantel, Levamisole, Piperazine...> also would you administer to the tank, or not. I know I am probably bugging you, but I am in a real bind, and I value your opinion, so please help! <Read, don't write. B>

Re: Please Help... "What we have here is a failure to communicate..." 1/4/09 Please. I need some input or ideas. I am lost here. Everything that has been in my tank since it was established, is doing great. <Just how long ago was it "established"?> My levels are great (except salinity. i have no idea if its on or not. I use a hydrometer, so it may be off. i know i know i need to get a refractometer.) but back to the question at hand. <What is "great"? We need numbers here. AND before you even ask this of us, you should know the salinity of your tank. It could answer your problems faster than we can.> So it all started when I lost 2 hermits within a day of each other. I didn't think much of it. Then I added and bicolor goat like 5 days later and it was belly up within 24 hours of putting it in the tank. Then I just added a cleaner shrimp and it was belly up within 24 hours. I have no idea what the problem could be cause everything that has been in the tank is doing awesome. Any ideas what the issue could be? Thank you. <We need more information on your tank. And until you get it, DON'T ADD ANYTHING ELSE TO YOUR TANK! Are you acclimating? Jessy>

Re: Blind Lion Fish... Killing marine fishes, too easily done... sans understanding/reading 12/16/08 Crew, <Francis> Returned back the blue ribbon eel ( The LFS lady said the fish died within few days - no refund ). <Mmmm> Now a major problem in my 4 ft after two years. Once I returned the eel, replaced 20% freshly prepared water ,tank was running for a week. Then bought a Juvenile emperor, <... A Pomacanthus imperator... angelfish? Needs more room than a four foot long system> a banner fish <Is a social species...> and a butterfly ( saddle back ). They were OK for the first two days, then started falling sick - symptoms like environmental disease <... no quarantine?> ( fins withering away, skin pale & losing colour, eyes cloudy ) I checked all the parameters & results were perfect, then took a sample of water to the LFS for reconfirmation, still OK except for phosphate a bit high. Did not know what to do, again did 20% water change & increased the temperature a bit. But no use , one by one died within a week. <...> Really got fed up, so stripped the whole tank, ( cleaned the sump, canister, wet/dry trickle system , overhead filters , took out all the live rocks & brushed them, washed all the coral sand etc .etc..) Reset the tank & replaced with freshly mixed water ( I use instant ocean salt ), & the tank was running for a week. <I can sense what's coming...> Last week bought a blue face, <... this large Pacific angelfish won't work here either... and most die... IF you had read... on WWM...> a butterfly , a Singapore angel. The fishes were happy for the first two days & then the same problem again, <Yes...> one by one died ( same symptoms). Double checked all parameters - perfect results. <...> Then trapped a couple of damsel & goby ( two years old ) from my 6 ft reef tank & put them in the 4 ft. Within two days they also got the same sickness, <Yes... the "four foot" system is infested...> this surprised me a lot. I don't want to return them back to the 6 ft. What would be the problem with my 4 ft. I don't want to buy any new fish <... and kill them...> till I sort out the problem. Crew please help. Rgds, Francis. <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files above. And re the fishes, other life you'd like to "try" ahead of its purchase... There is no need to "experiment" here Francis... There is a huge body of collected fact re the likely survival, husbandry needs of much of the life we keep as aquarists... You would do well to avail yourself of this accumulated experience. Bob Fenner>

Re: Blind Lion Fish... Killing marine fishes, too easily done... sans understanding/reading 12/16/08 Dear Bob, >Francis> Thanks a lot for your advice. Did some good reading this morning. I thought of few options 1) Run the tank completely ' fallow ' for 4 - 6 weeks at elevated temperature, hyposalinity and a therapeutic dose of medication ( I hate copper). 2) Strip the tank again, discard all live rocks, coral sand, boil / disinfect filter media and reset the tank with new material. 3) Run the tank fallow with fresh water, high dose of medication for a couple of weeks & restart again. I prefer the first choice, but your advice will be the best. Thanks again, Rgds, Francis <Please read where you were referred to... re parasitized systems... I'd aim/shoot for some sort of hopeful "stasis" here... Per your 1,2,3... none of the above. B>

Coral Beauty Angel with fin rot and possibly fungus hospital tank question 12/16/08 I have spent hours reading on info on your site (thanks so much for this wonderful resource) and would still like to ask a couple of questions. Here it goes... I have a 60ga Uniquarium with skimmer, 65lbs live rock, and crushed coral. temp @78, SG @1.023--.024 and perfect water quality according to the LFS that tests my water. fish are: two clowns, snowflake eel, <Mmm, an Echidna nebulosa really needs more volume than this> decorator crab and 8 hermits. <And... this Moray eats crustaceans...> i recently added a Coral Beauty Angel <This fish too needs more room than this> to my tank (8 days ago). <No quarantine?> he seemed fine for the first three days then he started to develop fin rot with (what looks like) fungus. i started to read about this subject on the web and found your site (albeit much too late); i now know the importance of quarantine/hospital tanks. <Ahh!> i do think that poor water quality is a big reason for the illness due to over feeding. <Is a contributing influence> anyway, i have a ten gallon hospital tank with five gallons of water from main display in it (5 gallons recommendation by my LFS), a heater (set at 79) and a powerhead. i added some PVC for comfort and a ten pound piece of live rock from my main display tank for a bio filter. they recommended that i have nothing but the PVC in the tank, no filter of any kind. <Mmm, one needs to be testing for at least nitrogenous anomalies... have some sort of in-place plan on how to dilute... sponge filters work sometimes... change-outs of water can help...> should i remove the liverock? <Mmm... actually... we need to go back a few steps... As in consider what all your major options are... Simply moving the fish/es to the ten gallon, LR or no, won't fix your situation... First off, a Centropyge bispinosus really won't go in this system...> also, should i add some type of mechanical/foam filter? <Yes...> I am using Maracyn to treat the fungus and fin rot. <... not efficacious here...> i was instructed to do a full water change every day, but it seems this would cause a lot of stress for the fish. please let me know what you recommend. thanks soooo much! -Joey <There's a bunch to read Joey... to more fully understand your alternatives here... If it were me, mine, knowing what I do, and what you have written here, I would either return the Angel to your main tank and hope for the best (please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm), hoping for some sort of "stasis", balance if you will, twixt whatever probable infectious and/or parasitic agent/s there are here now... and your host fishes... Or ask that the LFS allow you to return this angel period. Keeping it in the ten gallon under any conditions, treatment will not solve the issue of your main tank now being contaminated. Do you understand? Bob Fenner>

Re: Coral Beauty Angel with fin rot and possibly fungus hospital tank question 12/16/08 Hello Bob, thanks for the reply. i can't believe how misdirecting the LFS can be. <Unfortunately... there is MUCH to know... I learn new "things" and discover "facts" that I thought were so that aren't... daily to moment to moment...> just a few more questions if you don't mind. <Please go ahead> as i understand from your response, the main tank is now contaminated? <Yes my friend> potentially with what exactly? <Whatever is evidenced on the Angel (Protozoans likely... Crypt...) is now been introduced, become resident there> i thought that fin rot was caused by an opportunistic bacteria that already exists in the tank? <I doubt if what you are observing is truly fungal, or even bacterial... The symptoms you listed are more identified with Cryptocaryon and a few other ciliates> is it the possible fungus? <Mmm, no... not directly... and not this quickly to onset> none of the other fish seem to be showing any signs of disease(which i understand doesn't mean the tank isn't contaminated) <You are correct here... It may be that there is no "contamination" (but I greatly doubt this) or more likely, that whatever this is, will become, stay asymptomatic... hence my encouraging you to read re parasitized systems... But the most likely scenario is that the situation is in play... that whatever this is will express itself in a few days...> also, you're saying that the Maracyn won't have any affect on treating the sick angel? <Yes... Erythromycin is of limited use period with marine fishes... of no real use here> is this strictly due to the limited size of the hospital tank? <No> is there any way/need to treat the main display? <Not really, no... one could make statements re boosting immune systems (supplementing the water, foods with vitamins, HUFA-containing commercial products), sustaining optimized conditions, availing themselves of purposeful biological cleaners... All would/will help, but... likely insufficient> i read some about leaving the tank fishless/fallow to kill off disease/parasites. <Yes, this is S.O.P. for a host of many such parasitic complaints... breaking the cycle...> should i make steps to take this approach? <I would not given the circumstances here... Better to return the Angel as stated and hope for the best... IF there is a substantial outbreak... dips/baths enroute to a separate treatment system are suggested, and treatment there, while the main system goes fallow...> If I do decide return the angel to the main display and hope for the best, when will the tank be acceptable (free of contamination) for new livestock. <No, it will not. A hard lesson for sure> thanks again -Joey <Certainly welcome. BobF>

Re: Coral Beauty Angel with fin rot and possibly fungus hospital tank question 12/16/08 Sorry to keep this going, but i have to ask... you say that the tank will NEVER be acceptable for new livestock? >Mmm, no... I do not mean " not acceptable" going forward, but that you will have to be "just that more careful" to select initially healthy livestock, acclimate them... to prevent prompting an outbreak... Imagine having a low-level infestation... under control... Again, this is better explained in full-length article format. Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm and the linked files above till you understand...< so, if the angel is returned to the main tank and no symptoms of illness/infection are visible on/in any of the residing fish a week, month or even a year later, the tank is still contaminated and not acceptable for new fish? >Mmm, no... not so... How to put this? The universe is not so didactic... things being done, not done... but more a "process"... all becoming or unbecoming... To a degree your system and present livestock have likely been impugned... but not disastrously... not indefinitely> what can be done to rectify this, if this is indeed the case? <Read Joey...> i will read more on the link you sent me(seems to have a lot of ich related articles/e-mails. this is so discouraging. thanks again -Joey <I know. B>

Re: Coral Beauty Angel with fin rot and possibly fungus hospital 12/17/08 tank question Hello again, I have been doing a lot more reading and just wanted discuss a few more things. i know you believe the ailment my angel is suffering from to possibly be ich(Cryptocaryon irritans), but none of the pictures or descriptions of ich that I've come across match the symptoms of my fish. he doesn't seem to be scratching himself whatsoever and he doesn't have the salted appearance that describes most/all cases of ich. His eyes look great, he's social and eating plenty. <I do apologize... Have just re-read our previous emails... and I do think I have you confused with another querior... Someone who had written with their other fish expressing cloudy eyes, other symptomology> Symptoms- The angel has one white/grayish spot that is kind of cottony in appearance (not stringy) about an 1/8 inch in diameter(maybe slightly larger) and is on the leading edge of the fin rot. he also seems to have a white-ish upper lip (not sure if this is normal/related). <Mmm, these may well indeed "be nothing"... perhaps residual damage from shipping, handling> I have witnessed fish with ich in the hospital tanks at the LFS, as well as countless photos) and there is no resemblance to the spot on my fish. i put a lot of time into trying to determine the ailment (knowing I'm no expert and may still be wrong) before getting a hospital tank and starting treatment. I'd also like to add that i had the LFS hold him for a week and was told that all of their fish are treated with copper while in the store. <A common practice. Our stores too ran constant copper on the fish-only marine systems> anyway, my reason for needing to express this is because i do want to treat the fish if necessary with an antibiotic. what are your thoughts? <Is not necessary, as I've stated, nor advised> and what would you recommend as a suitable treatment if this is indeed fin rot and possibly fungus rather than ich. <Just good water quality and feeding> I will return the fish to the main display per your recommendation, but if this more recent description of his ailment changes your thoughts on the actual illness I'm dealing with please point me to some proper treatments/antibiotics. <It does not> thanks for all your help and patience...I'm really doing my best to provide these animals with the care and attention they deserve. thanks again -Joey <Thank you for clearing this up for me Joey. Bob Fenner>

Fish Disease book 11/19/08 Bob, as I am sure you are well aware, fish disease is a weakness of mine. I was just wondering about Edward Noga¹s book ³Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment². Is it so much better than the others to justify the cost? Thank you as always, Scott V. <It is simply put, the very best reference I know of in English... Expensive, and/but worth every penny. BobF, who uses his copy every week>

Re: Fish Disease book 11/19/08 Bob, I would also like to add that the Amazon link on WWM is currently $230.75 for this book. It can bought from the publisher for $124.99 @ http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/book.asp?ref=081382558X&site=1 , <Great news! My copy cost me two hundred! BobF> though it is a backorder for now. Scott V. <Am very sure you will greatly gain by its use... and warn you that like other aspects of our combined interests.... it/this delving will lead you to further investment... of time, a microscope or two... BobF>

Re: Fish Disease book 11/19/08 Heeee, not to make a measly thread go on, but I did purchase a microscope too! How are things in Coz.? Thank you again. Scott V. <Totally bunk here! Cold, overcast... hay bastante viento! So much wind that we haven't even been able to do dive one... Hopefully tomorrow. B>

Do Fish Get The Bends? (Indeed) 11/03/08 Hello crew, <<Greetings Mani>> I heartbrokenly write to tell you of the shocking demise of my favourite Pacific Blue Tang. <<Sorry to hear>> A bit of a reserved individual, he nevertheless was a valued member of my 700 litres system, and was, I understand well-liked by his peers, which include a CBB, a purple firefish, a couple cleaner shrimp, a pair of perculas and 2 anemones + several LPS and SPS corals. Solid appetite, loved his fresh shrimp, freeze-dried krill and nori on a vege-clip. Eating well right up to noon. All water parameters are tending to nil except nitrate which is around <10. <<Too high really with those Anemones present should strive for <5ppm at the most>> Good sized sump with wet-dry, loads of live rock in sump as well as display, (enough to keep the CBB busy all day and through the early hours every day) and powerful skimming. All inverts and fish thriving, good coloration, fed with Reef Roids and Red Sea CoralGro. Anemones get shrimp/fish every couple of days as well. No corals, anemones or other fish affected in the slightest. <<Affected by what?>> Coming to the problem, <<Ah'¦>> yesterday my skimmer overflowed due to my moving some flow lines around. The return chamber in the sump drained, and when I got there it was down to the extent that the return pump was half out of the water and was pumping clouds of bubbles into the display. <<Uh-oh'¦a real potential for disaster re Emphysematosis>> As my return outlet in the main tank faces vertically down, the bubbles were forced into and under the live rock below. Air pockets accumulated and larger bubbles were also popping up as a result. The deceased tang was chilling out in some neighboring rock and I think got a blast of bubbles or something, as immediately after this event he showed signs of distress. <<Mmm, yes'¦as your title lines alludes'¦the bends>> For him this means disappearing into the rockwork and not coming out for a feed. I ignored him all afternoon, thinking he would get over it. <<Was too late at that point and nothing you could do really>> But by evening he was wedged up against the top of the overflow weir and when I gently touched his nose, wouldn't budge, which told me this was a code red. <<Indeed>> I coaxed him away from there, but he staggered to the front, lay on his side gasping and died by 11 pm. <<Sad'¦>> Could you please advise me how I might have saved the situation, so if it happens again I know what to do and can also take precautions in other areas? <<I doubt there was anything that could be done short of preventing the incident to begin with. The infusion of large quantities of air through the pump volute caused it to be forced in to solution which increased the gas pressure within the water and subsequently the gas pressure within the fishes. When you shut off the pump to stop the air infusion there was likely a rapid decrease in gas pressure within the water which seemingly the Tang's body was not able to keep up with this the bends/embolism which killed it>> Thank you for making this resource available, as none of my books (except Jay Hemdal) even allude to such an event. <<Perhaps just more widely acknowledged/recognized among the freshwater aquaculture folks. I have heard Bob make reference to such in person on more than one occasion, and he has a few written references on the web site in the form of articles and in answers to queries on gas bubble disease (Emphysematosis). Try a Google search re and have a look here and among the related links: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/PdBblDisease.htm >> Regards, Mani <<Cheers, EricR>>

Re: Do Fish Get The Bends? (Indeed) 11/04/08 Hi Eric, <<Hello Mani>> Thanks for your sound advice. <<Mmm, such as it was I guess but you're welcome>> Could I ask you if there are physical symptoms that show onset of emphysematosis? <<Hmm, from what little info I've seen severe cases can display bubbles in the skin and fins and/or bulging of the eyes, otherwise symptoms seem to be similar to chemical poisoning (listlessness, inability to balance/swim, etc.). It may also be that the larger fishes in a system are more acutely affected which may explain why only the Pacific Blue Tang was affected in this instance>> Would a bit of a water change immediately (if this should happen again.....I hope not!!), be of any positive effect, to export the hyper-oxygenated H2O? <<Actually, this would only worsen the situation. A sudden pressure differential (as in rapidly exporting the hyper-oxygenated H2O) is what causes the affliction. Since the new water would almost certainly have a much lower gas-saturation level it (along with the simple act of pouring it in and agitating the water which releases gases) would cause an even faster drop in pressure within the system water creating a wider pressure differential with the fishes increasing their "bends." Perhaps a better approach would be NOT to immediately shut down the pump or stop the air entrainment but keep the pump running and slowly begin adding water to the sump (in your case) to *slowly* reduce the amount of air entrainment and thus *slowly* bring down the oxygen/gas saturation level in the water thus allowing the fish to outgas like in a decompression chamber. Admittedly, this is only a hypothetical solution too bad Bob is not available to comment re>> Regards, Mani <<Cheers mate, Eric Russell>>

Here are more pics of my broomtail cist -10/29/08 And another piece of information, this cist thing around my broomtails rectum won't come out when he produces feces, its like a pimple or growth. I've seen him producing feces and the pimple wont go out. I need advice.. Sam <Hmm... any chance it's a rubber band it accidently swallowed? Best, Sara M.>

Re: Here are more pics of my broomtail cist 10/30/08 Should I try and pull it off? I'm scared he'll bleed. <Uh, no, don't do that...> Sam <Sara M.>

Re: here are more pics of my broomtail cist -10/30/08 I don't think so. Its connected to some part of his body. Is it a bacterial infection? <I'm sorry, but it's really hard to say. For right now, if the fish is otherwise behaving normally and eating well, I would just wait and see what happens with it. It might just be a benign growth you don't have to worry about. I'm sorry BobF is incommunicado for the time being, else he might be able to give you more input. If the growth is still there and you're still worried about it after Nov. 13th, please write in with an update and maybe Bob will take a look at it.> Sam <Best, Sara M.>

Ocellaris, Marine Velvet, FW Dip, and Copper help! 10/25/08 Hi WWM Crew, <Arthur> Just wanted to ask a few questions. Yesterday I came home from work and found my Genicanthus bellus dead, and my tiny ocellaris sucked up against one of the Vortech powerheads, clearly dead. <Yeeikes!> That morning while the lights were off, they were both very much alive, but I didn't take a close look at them. The night before, they were eating and very happy. I have one more fish, another Ocellaris that I've had for almost 4 years now, she was still alive! She was covered in a bit of white "dust" like stuff, and her fins looked a bit ragged but without any bite marks. <Mmm, can be indicative of a number of protozoan parasitic conditions, or "just" environmental trouble/s> Those three were the only fish in there (save a handful of Trimma gobies and Eviotas which disappeared that day too). The Bellus Genicanthus came in and I QT'd her for a week back in August 2008, she looked great, no signs of swim bladder issues. She's been eating a lot, but other than her, no other addition to the tank in about 8 months to a year. <Mmm, must've been 2007, not 8> Long story short, I prepared a big jar of freshwater, added a tiny bit of baking soda, aerated with a air pump for about an hour, and put my ocellaris in there for 4.5 minutes. The temperature in the freshwater was 78 degrees and the pH matched as well as my pH test would tell with the display tank she was in. When she got in there, she immediately locked up, fins as far forward as possible, body arched sideways, breathing like crazy. <Stress, low DO> I freaked out and almost took her out right away, but then she started relaxing a little. She then commenced to freak out and swim around like a fish from the ocean trapped in a very small jar... again I was going to take her out at about 1 minute. Then she just calmed down and floated around breathing hard. After 4.5 minutes I saw bits of white stuff floating in the water, some of them larger than others... and they looked a little frilled, but too small to make out. Not sure about the frilled part, maybe it's just me freaking out about small parasites with tiny legs. <Perhaps> So anyway, then I put her into a 8 gallon tank that was heated and filled with 6.7 gallons of freshly mixed water (reef crystals and RODI from my RODI unit showing 0ppm). It had been mixing and warmed up about 6 hours prior. I also added CopperSafe, about 1.15 teaspoons of it. <Mmmm> Now she's in there, still breathing a little heavily, but not showing any weird signs other than that. She still is a bit fuzzy and I'm hoping she'll get a little calmer soon. Do you think the white dust in the jar was a sure sign of marine velvet? <Not really... could even be "just" body slime...> Baking soda had well dissolved by then, and there was nothing else in there other than a heater and airline tube before she went in. Was the procedure I took sufficient enough? 1.15 teaspoons of copper enough? too much? <Likely too much... along with all the other "new-ness" here> Do I change the water in the tank? And if so do I redose the amount that I changed? <I wouldn't use copper here period... Look into Quinine cpd.s... Particularly Chloroquine Phosphate> I have no filtration in there, because I heard live rock and or floss will absorb the copper and render it useless? <"Goes" in any case... needs to be monitored... at least twice daily... re-dosed...> Thanks for all the help. - Art (kinetic on reefcentral) <Bob Fenner, just BobF>

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