Rate your LFS -11/14/07
Hi Crew,
I love your site and have learned a lot. Have you guys ever considered having the crew and/or your students/users rate their LFS so we all know where to shop and more importantly where not to shop.
Thanks,
David
<Hi David. We do actually have a bit of fun along these lines with the article "Rate your tropical fish store" ( http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/hobratestrs.htm ). The problems with putting personal opinions online are multiple. For a start, fish stores can have bad days or management can change. So if I find one store disappointing, and that review stays online for a year or two, is it still fair on that store if it has changed for the better. Or vice versa of course; good stores can turn bad! Different people look for different things as well. I might find a store that specialises in marine fishkeeping disappointing because its selection of freshwater fish is limited. But Michelle or Chuck might find the sorts of stores with catfish and cichlids I enjoy so well a bit tedious when he's looking out for nice corals and healthy damselfish. Beginners appreciates stores that sell the basic kit and standard community fish at good prices, while experienced fishkeepers might be looking for stores with a wide variety of livestock and don't really care about the hardware side of things because they have all the kit they need already. So it's horses for courses. I think better for people to have some clues of things to look for (clean tanks, no dead fish, quarantining, strong lights for plants and corals, and so on). Then they can appraise their local stores and decide which ones to patronise. All this said, you are absolutely right that a lot of stores need to "buck their ideas up". Do look at some of the Related Articles linked from the article mentioned above. Bob Fenner, who runs this site, may have different reasons for or against your idea, so for now, let me just say that these are my thoughts. Cheers, Neale.><<Mmm, no more ideas really. I do agree, as usual, with Neale's statements. RMF>>

A Great LFS in Virginia Beach – 11/13/07
Hello Crew.
I am writing you folks because I want people in Virginia Beach to know there is actually a great LFS in the area. I went there today. The name of the store is Reef Chief. I usually don't endorse a LFS, but this is a great place. This store is actually dedicated to reef aquarium hobbyists. I met the owner as well, Jeff. A nice guy, who was very knowledgeable in reef aquariums. It is very difficult to find a LFS that sells good quality SPS corals.
Most of the corals are aquacultured. The ones that are wild captured, he frags them. Very responsible, which is sometimes hard to find in the salt water trade sometimes. I have the website for people who may be interested in the Hampton Roads area (_http://www.reefchief.us/_ (http://www.reefchief.us/) ). I don't know if you will publish this on your website, but I think it is important enough to at least let you know so others can see for themselves what a great LFS it is. The owner asked me all kinds of questions about my aquarium in order to get me the right type of SPS for my aquarium. I think a lot of new salt water hobbyists in my are may want to go to Reef Chief. Thanks for your time.
R/
Jeff
<Thank you for this input. BobF>

Re this website. Franchisee's valuable input  10/5/06
Dear Bob:
I am the owner of a Global Pet Foods franchise (10yrs)
<http://www.franchisegator.com/cgi-bin/profile.php?key=1210>
and we expanded into tropical fish approx 5 yrs ago.
<Congrats>
We now have 28 aquariums in the store and a great reputation for "good" fish - we have a Wal-Mart in our area which helps!!!  
<Mmm, am hoping you're not be facetious here... That this mass-merchandiser does have good staff, yields good service... Bad competitors are the trades worse enemies, stagnators of growth>
We have also developed a reputation for "oddballs" and this is where I find your site very helpful.
<Heeee heeeee! Have been called much worse!>
  I have learned a great deal about Bichirs and rope fish etc (fascinating creatures) and currently have 4 large p. senegalus in my show tanks.  I was also reading about the person who bought a rope fish from a "crappy pet store".  My advice to anyone purchasing fish - or any other pet for that matter - is to "quiz" the store staff extensively and, if the answers are not satisfactory,  SHOP ELSEWHERE.
<Good advice>
Do not promote stores such as these which, frankly, should not be in business!  Before we bring in any kind of animal/fish/reptile etc. we research on the net and with customers to make sure we can keep it properly.  We enjoy this business very much and our success (with fish) is largely due to sites like yours!
Please keep up the good work and let people know not all pet stores are bad, some of us really enjoy what we do and are not in it just for profit.  One last word, I agree with another lady who wrote in - it really is nice to see a site that does not have a zillion grammatical errors!  Thanks.  Marion.
<Hallelujah! Thank you for writing, sharing. Bob Fenner>

Retail Store Question   9/16/06
Hi Crew,
<Michael>
I have been keeping salt and fresh water tanks for about 13 years now pretty much beyond a hobby and more as a way of life.
I have just taken the next step most of us dream of and have purchased a 28 year old local fish store that's just over 22,000 sq ft.
<A very large place>
I close on it at the end of this month and have been going in and assisting the staff with customers
<A very good practice>
and sales and here is where my dilemma lies.
How does one deal with a customer who simply does not care about the life of (just a) fish?
<A hard question... unto yourself be true... but always remember you are you, others are themselves... one can only "be like the sun" and have/allow their goodness to shine on others... but never assume/become them>
I had a man come in who simply threw away his gold fish because they didn't interest him any more and another who insisted in buying 3 small Oscars and 2 angels with a green terror after he did not clean the filter and tank for 6 months and everything died!
I politely gave my advise and opinion on the neglect and disregard he is giving to life but he purchased them anyway.
<Such can be the ignorance of humans... look at the invasion of sovereign nations...>
How does one handle this situation?  My background is in sales and marketing and I am stumped.  If not allowing them to purchase them is the only option, have you heard of any laws against refusal of sale?
<No sense>
I understand this is more of an issue of ethics and morals but I know many of you at the WWM have owned LFS.
<I have been involved in several>
Any advice on this topic would be much appreciated.
Thank you in advance!
Michael J. Bukosky
<Good that you are "finding out about this" now... but such will be the continuous trials of being in retail... what will you choose? Which can you choose but to be yourself? BobF>

Re: Retail Store Question   9/16/06
Thank you for the words of wisdom Bob.
You have helped me out in the past and for what it is worth, you and the crew have passed on much respect and knowledge for this hobby and in return I will do the same
for my customers.
Thank you again... and again.. and again......!
<Welcome Michael... Retail is definitely "not for everyone", but want to re-emphasize that a large issue/lesson of "growing up" for all is this "ownership" question... Do be like the sun, and have the goodness in you shine on others. My goal as well. Cheers, BobF>

MMFI Aquaricare
W W M:
Is the Denver area company MMFI Aquaricare still in business? I purchased equipment from them last year and never received any product. Now I can not even get through to the company via phone, fax or email. This in spite of the fact that their website indicates near daily ‘updates”. Any information would be most appreciated.
Grant Creasey C.E.T.
<Mmm, never heard of them... Would try the big BB's re... and the State's business fraud civil servants. Bob Fenner>

Fish stores
Thank you for the interesting article on tank set up and care. I found it
interesting that you mentioned stores you feel comfortable and clean,
because in the last two months since my kids and I started our first fish
tank, we have seen problems with different stores. These were large chain
type stores too. If you don't mind and I have no affiliation with any of
them, PetSmart stores have been exceptional! We were lucky that this happen
to be the store that got us set up initially. We had great , clean and
disease free fish from there, and very helpful and courteous service. Two
other chains we have much problems with were PetCo. and Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart
actually had huge algae build ups on their tanks, and PetCo. 6 out of 8
fish we bought there were either diseased or died with in days of getting in
our already broken tank, with fish from PetSmart. TY Mike Oien, St. Paul,
Minnesota
<Thank you for your testimonial. Very glad to find discerning minds in fellow aquarists/consumers. Bob Fenner>

Your article
Hello Bob,
Im a member of a Marine Aquarium Society in Sydney (Australia) and was
looking to furnish LFS's with some doco on responsible stocking etc. I came
across your article - Hobbyist Drop-out: The Number One Problem Facing Your
Business & Our Industry. I was wondering if I could reprint it to Furnish
to LFS's in our area?
Thanks
Simon Finn
<Yes, and thank you for both your efforts and request. Bob Fenner>

Overcrowded 
Hi once again
<Hi Bryan>
I have a 55 gallon bow front with a magnum 350. My pets are a 10" snowflake moray, 3" crown squirrelfish, 3" red emperor snapper, 6" lionfish, and my personal favorite, a 7-8" panther grouper.
Yes, I know it is crowded! Yes, I Know it will get worse!
<Ah yes, I remember!>
While I am deciding which of my pets to sell back to the petstore I have a couple of ?'s. 
<Shoot>
My fish guy is telling me that I should have my tank at 80 deg and 1.019 salinity. According to everything I have read on your site it should be 1.023-1.025. He also says that the correct salinity depends on the temperature of the water. Is he wrong or am I missing something?
<He is half right/ half wrong. Yes, SG depends on temp to a degree. No, at 80 F SG should be 1.023-1.025 as per most salt manufacturers labeling. Most affordable plastic SG "gauges" are temperature corrected for water heated to approx. 76-80F. Spectranometers and soluble salt meters must factor in temp for the most accurate results.> 
My second question is what should I expect from a pet store? Is it fair to ask them to hold a fish for a few days with a deposit? Is that a standard practice or should I just give up on trying to get them to do this?
<Each store has it's own policy. The better ones will hold a fish for even a couple of weeks with a deposit. Find a store that provides you with the service you need to acquire and keep healthy pets.> 
The main problem we have had is that most of the fish we have bought there have died within 3 days even though we have followed all of their instructions. Now, do I get another pet store or what?
<I would rely on the outcome of your experience, and either keep it or change it based on your experience. Trust your feelings. How do you feel? I try to avoid stores with high mortality problems. I am attracted to stores where the stock is healthy and has a good survival rate and where I get accurate advice not necessarily aimed at generating sales.> 
Thank you for all the help over the last couple of days.
P.S.  The deaths weren't due to overcrowding as we only had three small fish then.
<You are more than welcome Bryan, please don't hesitate to write WWM.
Do make good use of a quarantine tank and reduce your overcrowding and you are on your way to a lot of enjoyment! Best Wishes, Craig>

Dealing with less-than-diligent LFS's
Hi Bob,
Just imagine...for every person that writes to you, there are dozens more
that you've probably inspired. Until now, I've only been of the latter.
<Glad to "hear" from you>
I recently stopped in at Apex, a LFS on Sepulveda in Culver City. I was
shocked to see that they must have had more than 50% sick or stressed
livestock.
<Don't all people feel ill at ease on viewing a child about to fall down a well?>
I also noticed that they have a massive single filtration
system, and therefore, they didn't feel the need for any kind of
substrate. Of course, being conscientious, I pointed out to the owner of
the store that her fish were swimming over a reflective blue surface all
day, and that this might not be so healthy for them. Needless to say, my
advice was not welcomed.
<A shame, for them and their livestock>
All she could say is that they've been in business
for over 22 years, blah blah blah. Therefore, I sent a copy of your article
(without permission, but not for commercial purpose) with yellow highlighter
covering the psychological benefits of providing a "ground" point for the
critters in her domain.
<Good for you>
Hope she got the point. But if she didn't, who would be the governing body
that enforces cruelty to animals laws, and would there be anything they
could do in this sort of case?
<There is no one as far as I'm aware... for fishes, invertebrates... the various governmental and societal functionaries relegate their influence to "companion animals" (dogs, cats) and what they deem worthy "exotics" (psittacine birds, some reptiles...)>
Too bad you don't need a license to open up
a pet store. I wish we had inspectors grading them like we do for
restaurants. She'd get a big red "D" in the window.
<If they will listen, sing them a song... Volunteer to help them, their competitors, advise others through your efforts here, local clubs. Above all, be yourself. Vote with your feet and wallet... Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Jonathan

Re: Poor Retailing Behavior.
Hi Bob,
I just wanted to let you know that I went back to
PetMart in St Petersburg, FL (not PetsMart)
( my LFS near where I live) and I was subjected to
one of the worst treatments a customer can get. This
store proved to be unfriendly, and the manager lectured me
for 10 mins on following his store's opinion and not
yours or everyone else's.
<Indeed, unfortunate... Poor customer service is unacceptable>
He said that he has been in
the business for 20 years (when I mentioned your
name he had no idea who you were) and then said
that "if we tell you to shake the fish like this, and dip
it like that" then you have to do it because we have
the best employees in the business incidentally one
of his saltwater fish guru suggested to use Alkalinity/
Hardness Plus daily, as well as dip my clown fish in
peroxide clown fish had Brooklynella & perished after
the 2nd dip for 10 mins)).
I guess the argument started when he said that I question
everything they tell me you bet I do, since I am the one
who spends the $)
<... you are the customer... and as a consumer have every right, indeed, obligation to voice your concerns, question...>
(i.e. they think Eheims are worthless,
while I read/was told the opposite by other sources.)
<Eheims pumps are used in critical applications (medical, industrial...)>
Also,
he has a sign above his "heaters" section that reads
"Keep all saltwater fish at 82 degrees F". When I told him
that "Marine Depot recommends (on the website) that triggers
are kept in 72-78F, he blew up and started lecturing me again!!!(??)
Being stubbornly opinionated is not a virtue, and of course
they lost a customer.
<These practices and stores don't last...>
I just wanted to bring this to your attention just to
prove that as a newbie(8 months in the hobby) you can be
subjected to a lot of misinformation that can lead to a tank
disaster or potential problems( my pH is now constantly at
8.2 now that I stopped adding the above supplements).
<Yes... unfortunate all the way around... After being in the trade for thirty five years, having been an earnest "content provider" to magazines, books... am still at times discouraged to hear of such callous, backward treatment of others...>
This is what a local website had to write about their store (If I had only
known before).
"Like other large stores, they tend to suffer from their size when it comes to
friendliness and knowledgeable staff."
found at "http://www.tampabayreef.com/stores/petmart.html"
<A shame... size doesn't necessarily translate to "poor performance"... as excellent retailing businesses like Wal-Mart and Sears show... Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Dimitri

LFS
Hi Bob,
<Hello>
Thanks for all the great articles and FAQs. I visit WWM at least three
times a week to look something up, and I always find what I need. This
question has nothing to do with my setup. Instead, it has to do with a LFS.
About a year ago, when I made my initial setup, I thought it was a pretty
decent store: lots of books, wide variety of equipment, good display of
freshwater creatures and a small but fairly nice marine section and fairly
knowledgeable employees. I thought it was pure coincidence or bad luck that
I purchased a couple fish there that succumbed to disease - seemingly
internal parasites judging from the symptoms. Well, in the last nine months
or so their marine fish section has been overwhelmed with disease, and
otherwise neglected.
<Have you spoken with the manager re this concern?>
I have made several visits each month just to see the trend, and it gets
worse. Last time, every tank had at least one dead, decaying fish -
certainly several days if not longer. One of the tang tanks had eight sick
tangs floating sideways and upside down. Five tiny acrylic box tanks with
dead or dying lionfish. Hum-Triggers jammed into the same size boxes rotting
or dying. The clownfish all covered in black slime and gasping for air.
Even the damsels appeared sick and discolored. Dead coral display and
urchins with spines all over the sand. Red slime algae and mounds of dirt
in every tank (most don't have any type of substrate other than this "dirt"
for lack of a better word). Even their "prized" main display tank was
yellowed and the beautiful triggers were sick-looking, though not as bad.
<Yikes. Terrible>
I don't want to keep going but it is really sad to see this terrible neglect
- and they keep stocking fish...new displays every week and they all look
awful. Nobody in their right mind would by any of these fish. I asked the
kid working there if they needed help with their water quality, and he said
it wasn't his department. I spoke to the manager who is usually walking
around. He eventually said it wasn't my business and I could go somewhere
else if I chose (I haven't actually purchased from this store in months). I
asked why he even bothered to stock marine fish. He didn't answer. Their
freshwater specimens are in very good to excellent shape most of the time.
The place seems to do a hardy business - it's a full pet store spanning
mammals, birds, reptiles, and fish.
<Very hard to run this sort of "all in one" operations efficiently>
My question comes down to: is there some sort of group or organization, that
might put some pressure on this store to clean up their act? I think it
would benefit everyone if they would either clean up the tanks or stop
stocking marine fish altogether. Thanks for anything you can suggest.
<I empathize with your position, desires... there is no "outside" agency that exerts such influence (other than ultimate economics) like the ASPCA for companion animals... There are "internal" ones like the American Marinelife Dealers Association... and the benefits of "telling all" re this stores apparent poor attitude on various chatforums/BB's on the Net... (Ours: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/ where you'll find a "rating area for LFS'). Hopefully a better business in the field will come into place in your vicinity. In the meanwhile do continue to ask the folks there what they think they're doing, offer your help. Bob Fenner>

Any Advice ? (very dissatisfied customer)
Hi Bob,
I thought that since you have been in the marine fish hobby for years, that you
could recommend a solution to a problem I had with a local fish store.
I have tried everything, including lawyers, Better Business Bureau, Credit Card Company, Consumer Affairs...My story abridged) is presented below in an e-mail
I sent to a local reef club that I have joined.
<Yikes! Three thousand four hundred dollars for "design"! Hope this included some of the actual set-up... Do you have any of "what they said" below in actual writing, like a contract? If it were me, I'd take these folks into Small Claims Court (check with your local jurisdiction re statutes of limitation), asking for all your funds back, presenting in a systematic, practiced fashion, the order of events, written evidence you have.>
Let me know if you have any suggestions.
Thanks
Chuck Spyropulos
<I am a strong believer in good customer relations, more importantly treating folks per "the golden rule". If these folks would like to present their side to me, I will gladly respond, post it. Bob Fenner>
Hello Boston Reefkeepers,
I am spreading the word that YOU SHOULD NOT shop at Exotic Marine Fish Wholesalers, 65 Hancock Street, Everett MA. When I was just beginning the hobby 2 years ago, these guys (Steve Kramer and Ron DeMillis) recommended a totally inappropriate filtration/water circulation system (**see below for more detail). When I went back a week later to cancel my order, after learning and reading about the equipment they sold me, they wanted to keep $400.00 out of $3400.00 that I paid them to design my system. I disagreed and wrote to the Better Business Bureau among others. When Steve Kramer got a letter from the BBB, he then refused and still refuses to pay me back a dime; even when I finally gave in and said I would take $3000.00 ....so I am out $3400.00 for NOTHING !!!!!!
Steven Kramer is both an unethical businessman and an unskilled aquarist who's
only mission is to take the money out of your pocket and put it in his. He does not care
about customer satisfaction or making things right with his customers. PLEASE learn
from my mistake...DO NOT EVEN THINK OF SHOPPING there. Go to Inland Reef
in Nashua, Tropical Isle in Natick, or for supplies...go on the web to Champion Lighting and Supply (wholesale prices on lighting, pumps, skimmers...etc), Harbor Aquatics
on the web, and also Inland Aquatics are great people who offer 5 day guarantees on most livestock (bad shippers are not included). Also, the tank
at Kelly's where we met last time was built and is maintained by Gibbon's Aquaria who is also on the web. Monolith Marine Monsters has
high end, high tech equipment, if you are into that like I am. They are also on the web and are home-based in Cambridge, MA.
I will continue to tell everyone I know in every reef club, organization and/or reefkeeper's newsgroup on the web about my
situation to keep them from getting ripped off as I did. Please let me know if you want to know more about this
situation...and if you have been ripped off by Steven Kramer, please write to the Better Business Bureau. My
complaint is on file with them and if there are more complaints maybe something will be done to prevent
these guys from ripping off any more people.
** Exotic Marine gave me the following advice and system design for my 300 gallon
reef tank:
- told me that a sump was too complicated and to go with a closed system
- recommended 2 Ocean Clear Canister filters for my main filtration system> Anyone who even has a clue about reef tanks knows this is ridiculous and that mechanical filtration is a Nitrate producing mess !!!
- sold me a very small Berlin Skimmer...too small for my 300 gallon tank ( and how do you set up a Berlin system without a sump ?!!!)
- When I paid for Cured Live Rock they told me that they would give me the "nice fresh live rock" right off of the truck...they tried to sell me uncured live rock for the price of live rock !!!
-told me that since they sold me a UV sterilizer (in one of the nitrate producing canister filters) that they could (and no doubt would) sell me sick fish...this is totally unethical and not good for our hobby.
- sold me 1 Little Giant Pump to force the water thru the nitrate producers that only yielded 3-4 tank turnarounds per hour...not nearly enough water flow. Suggested water flow rates from many references state 10 tank turnarounds per hour !!
-Exotic Marine still recommends undergravel filtration...in fact Steven Kramer even designs "the No Clog" undergravel filter...Oooooh...I need one of these like a hole in the head !!!
- Exotic Marine's policy is You buy it ...You keep it...even if the fish or other animal dies
right after you hand over the cash ?
Chuck Spyropulos