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Landscaping Fabric 8/6/15 Reverse UGF system - with Cory's
8/26/14 frog tank question; UG use, mod.
7/2/14 Reverse UGF – 05/13/12 55gal undergravel
filter 7/6/11 Gravel and Undergravel Filters,
FW, Neale's go 2/1/11 Re: More re: Goldfish
Filtration: Trickle or Canister (now reverse flow UG)
7/6/10 SW UG Filter question,
2/18/10 Filtration and substrate
upgrade 11/29/09 Re: Filtration and substrate
upgrade 11/29/09 Bubbles coming from nowhere out
of my under gravel filter. 5/8/09 Question on Building UGF System (RMF, opinion?) 12/16/08 Back in the mid 80's I built a 110 glass saltwater tank. I had triggers. The tank had a cracked bottom when I bought it from the fish store. They had the bottom replaced and drilled with three outlets. I built a UGF system with egg crate and covered it with screen and two returns at the top of the tank. I used two Magnum 330's. Are systems like this still used? I had my tank for two years and I never had any problems. A move forced me to sell. Regards, Jim B <Hello Jim. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with undergravel filtration. The reason you don't see such systems used much in either marine or freshwater fishkeeping is that the alternatives are less expensive than they were, and at least some of these alternatives offer very real advantages. In the case of marine fishkeeping for example, the use of live rock allows the complete nitrogen cycle from ammonia to nitrogen gas to be accommodated, not just the part of the cycle from ammonia to nitrate. Hence marine aquaria filtered with live rock enjoy better water quality (i.e., lower nitrate levels) than aquaria that are filtered using old school methods such as undergravel filters. On the freshwater side of things, undergravel filters turned out to be incompatible with aquatic plants because the presence of oxygen in the substrate made it less easy for plants to absorb the mineral nutrients they need. So aquarists with an interest in planting their tanks prefer to use canister filters of some type instead. Undergravel filters lose capacity in situations where there are lots of rocks (or corals) creating "dead spots", and fish that do masses of digging (for example cichlids or gobies) are liable to "short circuit" the system by creating channels through which the water can flow, by-passing the bulk of the filter bed. This isn't to say undergravels are redundant by any means. In the right tanks, they remain extremely cost effective. When used in the reverse-flow configuration are particularly well suited to tanks with large, messy fish where the separation of mechanical filtration (in the canister filter) from the biological filter (the gravel or coral sand substrate) makes maintenance much easier than would otherwise be the case. In tanks where the substrate will be expected to provide water chemistry control as well (such as a low-tech marine or Rift Valley cichlid aquaria) the undergravel filter ensures the water constantly passes through the calcareous substrate. In other words, while there certainly are better filtration systems available, there's nothing actually bad about undergravel filters, provided you understand their limitations and why many hobbyists have switched to the other filter types. Cheers, Neale.> <<Are still used... widely. And Neale's response is stellar... instructive, clear, complete... as usual. RMF>> Converting to a planted tank - shutting off the
under gravel filter 9/13/08 Confused about UGF statement from crew 4/27/07 Thanks WWM crew for all you do for passing the knowledge forward. I recently (1 year ago) returned to the salt water portion of the hobby after being out of it for 20 years and have learned and re-learned many things and what a change from the late seventies early eighties. I have had freshwater tanks since the late sixties and was a little confused by a reply to a question asked by someone as I was reading over the FAQ's tonight regarding under gravel filters for FW tanks............. UGF and Power Heads, FW - 04/25/07 To whom it may concern: Hello, <<Hello. Tom here.>> I have a 10 gallon tank with 2 separate filters and 3 goldfishes. I get a little frustrated with changing the filters every 2-3 weeks, so I purchased a UGF and a power head from aqua-tech. Did I made a good decision? I would really appreciate a straight answer. <<Straight answer? No, you didn't make the best of decisions here. First, I would rather have seen you place the money you spent toward a much larger aquarium. You're way overloaded where stocking is concerned. (Goldfish need far larger quarters to live in than most people believe or understand.) Specific to your question, though, a UGF requires a higher, not lower, level of maintenance than hang-on or submersible filters. If you're frustrated with cleaning your present filters every two to three weeks, you're not going to be happy pulling your UGF plates just as often to make sure they're clean and performing properly. It's because other styles of filters were designed to be more easily maintained that UGF's lost their popularity. They used to be the 'only game in town' in the past. Now, by most standards, they're simply not worth the effort. (For just a little 'sugar coating', UGF's work very well. Many hobbyists just didn't want to take the time to maintain them properly and this caused problems up to, and including, the deaths of their livestock.)>> thank you <<You're welcome. Tom>> Maybe I have been doing things wrong for 20+ years but when I look under my plates from the bottom of the tank (one with power heads running) I do see a small amount of build up but nothing to stress me or the fish about. <Mmm, well... circumstances result in highly variable experience here... but if one uses "almost entirely nutritious" foods (so that there is not much "left over" (think of spacemen/women in their space suits here...) AND there is no shortage of alkaline reserve (the mechanisms of decomposition here result in lowered pH, dissolved oxygen...) and a few other factors, then UG filters can be quite maintenance free... In actual practice though, more gravel vacuuming is required... along with disruption of the livestock, system... with UG use (Am still a fan myself)> I have never had to "pull my UGF plates up every 2-3 weeks" to clean them. The only time I have done this was when either moving a tank or breaking one down. I do not want to wreak havoc on my cycle. <Agreed> I run power heads in the lift tubes (smaller tanks have air pumps and stones) and when I do need to clean the build up under the plates I do not remove them but either run a hose down the lift tube to siphon or attach tube to the power head to suck out or by simple lifting up and down slightly where the tube meets the plate with power head running (if worried about clouding the water you could do it while changing water with hose attached to exit of power head to keep silt from entering tank water) to loosen and clean out the deposits under the UGF. Of course I vacuum (alternating half one water change then the other the next time) the gravel to remove the mulm built up in it but never have I removed the plates just to clean. <Well-stated and a good practice> However the hang on filter does require more regular maintenance in my opinion for changing out the medium used there as the waste build up increases the nitrate and reduces water flow through the filter. Thank you, John Maggio <Thank you for sharing, sending along this well-written counter-point. Bob Fenner> Re: UGs 4/27/07 Hello Tom, Bob, <Neale, Tom> I came across this message in the Inbox and wasn't sure how to respond to it, so am open to advice. <Good attitude> On the one hand, I have never found undergravel filters to be difficult to maintain. Yes, they need cleaning once a year and a good rake through once a month, but that's about it. They have numerous drawbacks I grant, but maintenance isn't really one of them. For their cost, undergravels can provide very good water quality. On the other hand, I wouldn't like to criticize the advice offered by another contributor. I also think Tom's basic comment that the tank is too small and an undergravel too pokey for goldfish is correct. I personally don't consider goldfish suitable for anything other than very large aquaria, but that's just me. <We are in agreement here... I have posted a couple of articles I'd penned on these venerable filters... Do have some place still... but not with goldfish systems, other arenas where sped up reduction can be problematical> The message is in my mailbox folder if anyone wants to have a pass at it. <I'll have a go... and send all to Tom's in-folder as well. Cheers, BobF> Cheers, Neale > Thanks WWM crew for all you do for passing the knowledge forward. I recently (1 year ago) returned to the salt water portion of the hobby after being out of it for 20 years and have learned and re- learned many things and what a change from the late seventies early eighties. I have had freshwater tanks since the late sixties and was a little confused by a reply to a question asked by someone as I was reading over the FAQ's tonight regarding under gravel filters for FW tanks............. >> UGF and Power Heads, FW - 04/25/07 >> To whom it may concern: >> Hello, >> <<Hello. Tom here.>> >> I have a 10 gallon tank with 2 separate filters and 3 goldfishes. >> I get a little frustrated with changing the filters every 2-3 weeks, so I purchased a UGF and a power head from aqua-tech. Did I made a good decision? I would really appreciate a straight answer. >> <<Straight answer? No, you didn't make the best of decisions here. >> First, I would rather have seen you place the money you spent toward a much larger aquarium. You're way overloaded where stocking is concerned. (Goldfish need far larger quarters to live in than most people believe or understand.) Specific to your question, though, a UGF requires a higher, not lower, level of maintenance than hang-on or submersible filters. If you're frustrated with cleaning your present filters every two to three weeks, you're not going to be happy pulling your UGF plates just as often to make sure they're clean and performing properly. It's because other styles of filters were designed to be more easily maintained that UGF's lost their popularity. They used to be the 'only game in town' in the past. Now, by most standards, they're simply not worth the effort. (For just a little 'sugar coating', UGF's work very well. Many hobbyists just didn't want to take the time to maintain them properly and this caused problems up to, and including, the deaths of their livestock.)>> >> thank you >> <<You're welcome. Tom>> > Maybe I have been doing things wrong for 20+ years but when I look under my plates from the bottom of the tank (one with power heads running) I do see a small amount of build up but nothing to stress me or the fish about. > I have never had to "pull my UGF plates up every 2-3 weeks" to clean them. The only time I have done this was when either moving a tank or breaking one down. I do not want to wreak havoc on my cycle. > I run power heads in the lift tubes (smaller tanks have air pumps and stones) and when I do need to clean the build up under the plates I do not remove them but either run a hose down the lift tube to siphon or attach tube to the power head to suck out or by simple lifting up and down slightly where the tube meets the plate with power head running (if worried about clouding the water you could do it while changing water with hose attached to exit of power head to keep silt from entering tank water) to loosen and clean out the deposits under the UGF. > Of course I vacuum (alternating half one water change then the other the next time) the gravel to remove the mulm built up in it but never have I removed the plates just to clean. > However the hang on filter does require more regular maintenance in my opinion for changing out the medium used there as the waste build up increases the nitrate and reduces water flow through the filter. > Thank you, > John Maggio UGF and Power Heads, FW - 04/25/07 To whom it may concern: Hello, <<Hello. Tom here.>> I have a 10 gallon tank with 2 separate filters and 3 goldfishes. I get a little frustrated with changing the filters every 2-3 weeks, so I purchased a UGF and a power head from aqua-tech. Did I made a good decision? I would really appreciate a straight answer. <<Straight answer? No, you didn't make the best of decisions here. First, I would rather have seen you place the money you spent toward a much larger aquarium. You're way overloaded where stocking is concerned. (Goldfish need far larger quarters to live in than most people believe or understand.) Specific to your question, though, a UGF requires a higher, not lower, level of maintenance than hang-on or submersible filters. If you're frustrated with cleaning your present filters every two to three weeks, you're not going to be happy pulling your UGF plates just as often to make sure they're clean and performing properly. It's because other styles of filters were designed to be more easily maintained that UGF's lost their popularity. They used to be the 'only game in town' in the past. Now, by most standards, they're simply not worth the effort. (For just a little 'sugar coating', UGF's work very well. Many hobbyists just didn't want to take the time to maintain them properly and this caused problems up to, and including, the deaths of their livestock.)>> thank you <<You're welcome. Tom>> Aquatic Edge undergravel filters 3/7/07 I was just recently given a fish tank. Well as with anything, it needed to be assembled. I would like to know if there are any diagrams that show how to assemble the water filter, pump, and aquatic edge undergravel filters. <I am not familiar with this product, but I was able to find a picture of what it should look like when assembled here, http://www.fish.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=701012+005. Hope this is of help to you, Brandon.> Thanks Switching from Under Gravel Filters To Other Filtration Methods - 02/11/2007 Hi WWM Crew, <<Hello, Glenn. Tom here.>> I hope you all are doing well today. <<And you as well.>> A few years back y'all helped me plan for changing my saltwater tank from UGF filtration to LR/DSB and sump/refugium. I made the change in 2004 and Nitrates have been undetectable since then. <<Can't argue with success, Glenn. Good job.>> I have a small 30L Malawi Cichlid tank that has been running for 7 years. I've always used UGF and the same gravel. After reading about some of the problems that a poorly maintained ( i.e. lack of regular water changes and substrate vacuuming) UGF system may develop, I've decided to switch to a power filter. <<Nothing wrong with making the switch, Glenn. I'd say that a tank running a UGF filter for seven years isn't at all bad but, I wouldn't disagree with the decision you've made.>> My plan is to run the UGF and new Power filter together for a period of time, then remove the gravel, UGF plates and vacuum out the bottom of the tank. Rinse the grave in tank water and add several inches back into the tank. Of course the fish will be moved to a 30G Rubbermaid tub while I remove the filter. <<A suggestion? If possible, pull the plates without pulling out the gravel. Easier said than done, I know. Will very likely stir up a lot of gunk from the bottom but I'd rather not see so much of the beneficial bacteria potentially compromised. When all has settled out, a few 'deep' (all the way to the bottom) gravel cleanings will put your substrate back in good order. This will become the order of the day, anyhow. As I say, just a suggestion.>> My first question is how long should I run the Power and UGF filter together before removing the UGF? <<This one somewhat goes back to my last point. A couple of weeks should be more than sufficient provided the whole bacterial 'farm' hasn't been badly disrupted or disturbed. The media will seed with beneficial bacteria quickly in a cycled tank such as yours so I see no reason to run both together longer than this.>> The second is, how deep can I make the substrate? I know in marine systems, a SSB should be <= 1". Does this apply to fresh water as well? <<This one depends on the type/size of the substrate being used, Glenn. The finer the substrate, the shallower the depth should be. I'm running about 1' of fine, natural gravel in one of my tanks and about 2.5'-3' of coarser gravel in another. The key is to prevent pockets of build-up from forming away from the oxygenated region of the tank. No hard and fast rules here other than good common sense, really.>> Thanks, Glenn <<No problem at all, Glenn. Good luck with the change-over. Tom>> Deep Sand Bed for Fresh water aquarium. 11/8/06 Hi Guys, <Oooh, what about the XXs?> I am new to this site but I used to keep marines - then I got married, had kids, got a proper job - pretty much in that order... <Let's see... in the not so wild west, "First comes... then comes familiarity...> Now I return, but have decided to keep Malawi Cichlids (Haps and Peacocks). <I keep these... and Mbuna in another system> I am still researching the species and bringing myself up to date with latest filtration techniques etc. I am space limited and so I know that the size of the tank is fixed at around 90G. I am interested in using a sump - for various reasons, but it has a lot to do with requiring a low maintenance, stable system because I am away from home 4 days a week. (That's what a proper job does to you). I am interested in incorporating a NNR refugium type compartment in the sump, and have read around the subject a little. However, I have a couple of really basic questions that I can't find answers for. This is why I write. My first question is how do they work? <Mmm, NNRs? Basically they harbour, foster anaerobic microbe populations... mild circulation delivers system water to the hypoxic bed, and chemical substrate (e.g. Nitrates) that are reduced (as in Reduction/Oxidation) to component molecules> Ha! Don't get upset. 6 inches of sand directly on the bottom of the tank with no forced water flow through it leaves me confused. How is the water that had nitrates removed replaced? How does water exchange work in the filter bed? <Is the same water... recirculated with/through the system en toto... and the water exchange is purposely very slow, gradual to keep oxygen tension low> My second question is this. If I set it up with a plenum, an uplift tube and a very low flow rate (say a few gallon per hour) will the efficiency of the sand bed be increased or destroyed? <This depends on still other factors/circumstances of how much substrate, its "grade", chemical/physical make-up... slow as you go is the route to go here... no uplift tubes, the "holes" for these plugged... No aided circulation through the bed other than simple diffusion, Brownian motion> (This is of course just a UGF with a low flow rate). When I was keeping marines the accepted wisdom at the time was that aerobic processes occurred in only the top inch and a half of substrate. Therefore it seems to me that with a deep sand filter some forced water movement could be acceptable without dragging oxygen too far into the bed. <Ah, yes... I remember those days/years> In any case it could be possible to increase the depth of the sand to compensate. <Yes, to some/an extent> I should add that the reason I am tempted to do this is again due to lack of space. The entire sump needs to be 80LX40WX40Dcm max. Any help you can offer would be very welcome. Thanks, Tony Baxter <The same rationale, design, operation... of such filtration, filters as per marine... Please use the search tool and/or indices on WWM to read about Plenums, DSBs for marine/SW set-ups... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/Plenums.htm and the linked files above... and apply this to your application. Bob Fenner> Undergravel Fish? 11/7/06 Hello, <Hi Mark, Pufferpunk here> I have this problem with my Flowerhorn fry. They seem to always try to get under the gravel. A lot of them are not getting back out. I want to try to vacuum the gravel but afraid that I might crush the fry while doing it. So, is this a big problem or the fry should be able to get themselves out? Please, need help fast--don't know if they can survive that long under the gravel. <Are you speaking of below the undergravel filter plate? I can't imagine anything else you might be referring to, unless your gravel size is huge & they are being caught between the pieces. If you are referring to the undergravel filter plate, the same thing happened to my Cory catfish fry. I took the down tube out & lifted the plate by the hole slowly, letting the gravel drop to the side. All the fry were fine after that. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong & describe the problem better. Also, it would be good for the fry to have some fine-leaved plants (live or fake) to hide out in. ~PP> Thank you very much, Mark Removing an UGF 8/24/06 Good morning! <Hi Nicole, Pufferpunk here> I have a 29 gallon community tank filtered by a Penguin 150. I had a powerhead connected to an UGF. I decided to try making use of an extra powerhead by connecting it to a Quick Filter (Hagen). I had it running since Thursday and at first was very excited as it polished the water until it was sparkling! The trouble started when I removed the other powerhead off of its lift tube for cleaning....suddenly I heard a pop and I realized I had removed the whole lift tube right off of the filter plate! I considered for a moment what to do, and ended up just throwing away the lift tube and covering up the exposed bit of plate with gravel. Can I safely do this? Just abandon the undergravel filter and leave it as a large plate sitting uselessly under the gravel? Or do I have to remove the UGF completely? <I really don't like UGFs in general. It seems like "sweeping dirt under the rug". Unless used as reverse flow. Here is an article that will tell you everything you need to know: http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/ugfilters.html > I changed one of the two carbon filters (I change them alternately to reduce bio-filtration stress) and removed the power sponge filter, which had become darkly discolored - probably because of stirring up the muck beneath the filter plate. The package says you can leave it in for up to two weeks without changing the filter, I went ahead and changed it. From now on I am going to only run it on weekends, since it seems better for spot cleaning than continuous use. <I have completely removed UGF plates (my Corys had spawned & all the babies were underneath!). It was quite simple. I just grabbed onto the hole & pulled slowly up to one side. The gravel just slid off. I did a good stir & an 80% water change.> The water doesn't look cloudy per se but it does have lots of small suspended particles in it, which haven't cleared up since the "incident" with the lift tube. I am writing because I fear discontinuing the UGF suddenly and removing the extra powerhead might have been a major mistake/disaster and I don't even know it! Although the fish seem to be acting normally in every way.. I will do whatever is necessary. <I prefer a good HOB filter like the Aquaclear for a tank like that (sorry, I'm not familiar with Penguins). Using one & removing the UGF, shouldn't change your biological filtration much, as your tank seems well established. I like to put 1" filter floss between the sponge & BioMax that comes with the AC filters (carbon is pretty much useless on a freshwater tank), to "polish" my water crystal clear. ~PP> Thank you very much for your help! Nicole Goldfish shut off the undergravel filter? Eats shoots and
leaves... 7/14/06 Hello, <<Hi. Tom with you.>> I
read on your web site that undergravel filters are not recommended for
goldfish. <<Goldfish in particular because of their
"messiness" but the recommendation holds for other species as
well. I, and others, have addressed this one before but it may bear
repeating. We don't recommend against this style of filter because
it doesn't work. They can/do work quite well, in fact. The two
primary causes for concern, however, is that these MUST cover the
entire bottom of the tank and they MUST be maintained properly. When
the first admonition is ignored or misapplied, pockets of detritus/mulm
can build up in the "unfiltered" areas leading to potentially
toxic levels of nitrates in the tank. Also, when not properly
maintained, the same situation may arise should the filter plate(s)
become clogged and left untended. This one may sound like a case of
"pilot error" rather than the fault of the filter and, while
we wouldn't argue that point, there are just too many good
alternatives available to aquarists to justify the use of a style of
filter that has led to a great many problems including otherwise
"mysterious" deaths of livestock.>> I have a 46 gallon
tank with 2 medium Orandas and 1 Ryukin. Currently I have an
undergravel filter and a TetraTec PF500 power filter. I am considering
shutting the undergravel filter off. I have a hot magnum filter that I
could use to clean the gravel with prior to shut down and then reload
with carbon to assist filtration during the transition. Do you have any
advice or feedback? <<Your plan sounds fine and will eliminate
potential problems down the road. Why run the risk?>> Thanks!
<<Any time. Tom>> Bowfronts and filtration 5/18/06 Dear crew: <<Hi, Jasen. Tom here.>> I have a bowfront aquarium and a problem. <<One of mine is a "bowfront", too, so let's see if we can solve the problem.>> I was told that since the tank isn't rectangular I can't use an undergravel filter with it. <<In a nutshell, UGF's are problematic because the can create problems with trapped particulate matter leading to high toxin levels. The general rule, nowadays, is to avoid them.>> Is this true? <<Yes. The trouble here is that a UGF should filter the "entire" bottom surface of the tank to eliminate "pockets" of collected detritus/mulm. With a bowfront tank, this isn't possible with a straight-line UGF. A matter of "geometry". The "bow" in the front of your tank will leave a rather large area for unfortunate build-up. Not a good situation at all.>> From, a fish lover <<From a fish lover, as well. Tom>> Re: Bowfronts and filtration ... FW maint./op. 5/24/06 <<Tom here, Jasen.>> Thanks for your answer! <<No problem whatsoever.>> A couple more questions (and this time, could you return the answer to this email: XXXX). <<Should work, Jasen. Our replies of the typical e-mail variety so they go back to the address the questions were posted from. Looks like yours fits the bill.>> What is the main reason that aquarium water starts to smell, kind of like stagnant water? Is that because of excess food on the bottom that rots? Or is it because of some kind of bad bacteria? What is the smell, ammonia? <<In a nutshell, all of the examples you've cited will contribute to the bad smell. Toss in some fish poop and you've got quite a smelly combination at work, most of it decaying/rotting and, generally, fouling up the place. As to the ammonia, it's possible that you might detect this but you'd have to have a pretty sensitive nose. Given that the toxicity levels that will kill fish is so low in "normal people" terms, it's a good bet that you'd have dead/dying fish on your hands if you could smell the ammonia.>> Also, what kind of fish can keep that problem to a minimum? Catfish on the bottom? If so, what kind of catfish consumes old food on the bottom of the aquarium best? I know that there are some that don't eat the old food. <<To give you a serious but, seemingly, silly answer, small fish invariably result in a "cleaner" tank for fairly obvious reasons. They don't eat as much as large fish and, consequently, don't urinate/defecate as much. Less uneaten food - assuming they're fed responsibly - and less detritus. Catfish are scavengers, for the most part. I've, personally, got Corydoras and these guys forage non-stop. They'll do it regardless however, I wouldn't think of leaving them to live on what's "left over" from my other fish. Mine are fed sinking types of food, i.e. pellets and wafers, and I'd suggest the same to everyone else.>> Would it be better to have snails instead of catfish, or should I have both? And what about those kind of fish that seem to have their mouths glued to the glass all the time...I don't know what they are called, but I've seen them. <<Some snails can, and will, happily feed on old food and detritus. I'm not a fan of the little buggers but they do, indeed, prove useful in this respect. In stocking my tanks, Jasen, I get the type of fish that I like before I concern myself with what they'll do for their "environment". Doesn't mean we can't have our cake and eat it, too, but I clean my tanks every week with water changes ranging up to 50%. That frees me up to keep whatever kind of fish I'm prepared to properly care for with regard to water parameters, etc. You can make "smart" choices but I've yet to hear of a successful, maintenance-free aquarium...unless it's empty, of course. :) Oh, the fish you're referring to is a Plecostomus catfish, specifically Hypostomus plecostomus. Not the only variety of Pleco available, by any means, but this is probably the species you're asking about.>> Jasen Stoeker <<Tom>> Question...UG Filters-Hydrogen Sulphide Factories - 5/18/2006 I have a 46 gallon aquarium with a bow-front. Is it possible to use an undergravel filter with this aquarium, since it is not rectangular? <Fred, is there any particular reason you want to use a UG filter? These guys are maintenance headaches. You would be much better off with a bio-wheel type filter if expense is the concern. Do read here and then decide. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/ug5proscons.htm James (Salty Dog)> Fred Stoeker UG's....not my choice - 05/17/2006 Dear Crew, <Hello.> Can I use an undergravel filter in a 46 gallon bowfront aquarium, <...You can, I wouldn't...not a fan of UG's myself.> even though it is not perfectly rectangular because of the bowed out front? <UG's in my opinion are obsolete, if this is freshwater aquaria look into a nice canister filter like an Eheim.> Fred Stoeker <Adam J.> Mainly FW plant selection, growing with UG filtration 3/21/06 Dear Bob / Sabrina I have been keeping tropical fishes for the last couple of years. I have 5 Angels, 3 Clown Loaches & some tetras in my aquarium. During this period I tried so many times to keep real / live plants in my 5 feet long tank which is based on under gravel filters but I never got success :-( again I had to decorate my aquarium along with Plastic Plants. This time again I am trying to keep the real plants. I need some information from you 1. Can I keep them in Under Gravel filters based tank. ( Here in Pakistan I have seen many aquariums which are full of live plants and are running on Under Gravel filtration ) <Not all species... or not w/o "blind-potting" many of the rooted varieties (in their own substrate, containers, or with a solid barrier placed on top of the UG plate between the gravel...> 2. What species of plants should I keep ? I mean what types of plants ? I intend to keep Hygrophila, Cabomba, Vallisneria, Java Fern & Cryptocoryne, are these plants suitable for keeping with each other. <Posted: http://wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/AquariumGardenSubWebIndex.html> 3. If the above mentioned plants are o.k. then what are the lighting requirements for these plants and what types of fishes I can keep along with these plants <Also posted...> 4. Here in Pakistan a local plants dealer told me that Java Fern do not grow well if it is potted in a gravel. Placing it on a Bog Wood will do better. Is he right ? <Yes... posted> I am a regular visitor of your website and I think it is very informative. Wish you good luck in your future endeavors Very Best Regards Shany Karachi, Pakistan. <Thanks much. Bob Fenner> Looking For Undergravel Filters 9/19/05 Hello! I am currently searching for an underground filter system for a 46G freshwater aquarium. The dimensions are 36.5" X 16.5" X 21". Can you please recommend the correct size for this 46G bow-front? Also, is there a company that makes "custom-fitted" underground filter systems? Thanks for your time. Regards, Shelly Hentges < Go to DrsFosterSmith.com. They have an undergravel filter by Perfecto that is 34.5" x16.25" (#MA-128358) for a 50 or 65 gallon tank. Pretty darn close. Nobody makes custom undergravel filters that I know of, but the one mentioned above will work just fine if you really want an undergravel filter.-Chuck> Cleaning Undergravel Filters - 08/25/2005 I have two underground filters connected to power-head filters, and I was wondering, how you can clean underneath them? <Very, very difficult - and a great question, besides. The best idea I have been offered is to run an airline hose down the lift tubes and start a siphon.... if you have an open-top-type stand, you can get underneath and see where the problem areas are to get 'em cleared out. This is not a great solution, but it's better than doing nothing! Another option would be to do a reverse-flow UGF (powerheads would drive water IN the lift tubes, and out through the substrate, rather than the opposite). You'd want it cleaned out prior to making this change, though, or all the gunk underneath will get stirred up. My preference is just to not use UGFs when avoidable.> Thanks for your help! <You bet!> Christine <Wishing you well, -Sabrina> What's that smell??? (10/22/03) <Hi! Ananda here this afternoon...> I have had a 3' aquarium for 7 years and had encountered few problems . I have recently added some new fish after a long time with only a few fish in the tank. I now have a major smell problem with the tank. I have cleaned it out more often and I am wondering if I have cleaned it out too much and removed too much dirt for the under gravel filter to work? Please help if you can my living room smells like the bottom of a pond! <It's likely there's something stuck under the undergravel filter plate, rotting away, and producing hydrogen sulfide. You may need to tear the whole tank down to clean under there and find the culprit. To prevent another occurrence of something like this, I think the new fish deserve a new filter. There are a number of easier-to-maintain filters available now. For a 3' tank, without knowing how many or what kinds of fish you have, I would suggest looking into the Penguin 330 or one of the Emperor filters (click the Drs. Foster & Smith icon at the top of the Daily FAQs page and wander over to their filtration section).> Karen. <Hope this helps. --Ananda> Re: What's that smell??? (10/22/03) Hi Karen here <Hi! Ananda back again, here...> Thank you for you help. I have actually solved the problem already , you were right though. Both up lift pipes were loose and blocked. the fish are happy and the tank smells sweet!. thanks again Karen. <Glad to hear you found out what the problem was. --Ananda> The Smell Returns (11/01/03) Hi again, <Ananda here, back for another round> In trouble again , we now have a foggy tank and a white mold like growth in the up lift pipes and another smell hard to describe but just not nice. <Ugh. Time to partly disassemble the UGF and see what's under the plates, I think. I did that, once...and switched to a different type of filtration.> Can you help? <Got airfare? ;-) Seriously, though, I think you may have some blockages in the gravel... and I think the "white mold growth" is a symptom of a filter in need of cleaning.> I did wonder if it was just that the filter was not active yet? <Hmmm? Did you get a different filter with bio-filtration capacity? Or are you referring to the UGF?> Karen <Maybe try soaking your uplift tubes in vinegar, then water, to clean them? --Ananda> No More Smell in That Tank (11/04/03) Hi again <Hi! Ananda back again.> Thank you for your help again. <No problemo.> All is sorted. I had emptied the tank and cleaned under the UGF and then the tank went cloudy and smelly. <Ah, that explains it. By emptying the tank, the gravel got disturbed and some of the nitrifying bacteria got killed off. Thus the cloudiness.> After I had E-mailed you I cleaned the up lift pipes and did a partial water change every day, after about ten days all is well the fish are happy and the tank smells sweet again. Thank you again for your help. <Sure> I have just set up an additional tank and I am increasing my collection of fish. We have a small nursery tank as well with balloon mollies, Dalmatian mollies and white cloud mountain minnow fry so we have lots of fish to look after. <Do you know what you're going to do with all those fish? You can only fit so many tanks in a house, as I've discovered....> I am also going to set up another 3' tank as soon as I can as a friend has sold one to me very cheap. <That's a start.> Thanks again for your help. Karen <Best of luck to you and your fish. -- Ananda> Gravel Filtration Do you recommend gravel filtration? <Method of filtration depends on many factors, freshwater, saltwater, fish, reef, etc. Please surf over to http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ and choose your weapon from the headings...marine or freshwater, and then the sub headings for filtration. It is vital to factor-in the type, habit, feeding, waste production and adult size of the inhabitants you are interested in, and what is required to provide them with whatever it takes to thrive in captivity. The web site will provide you with all the information needed. Enjoy! Craig> Reverse-flow or normal flow? Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 Hi, <Bonjour!> To put you in the situation, I have a 75 gallons with 19 adults herbivore Mbunas, 1 AquaClear 500, 1 canister Fluval 304 with sponges, Rena BioStar and crush corals inside. Also UGF powered with 379 gph powerhead on normal flow in a corner. At the opposite corner, an air inlet pull water in normal flow too. The gavel thickness is about 2-4 in. depending where. The food I use sink very quickly and it goes in the gavel following the water flow. <I see> The thing is that I have a certain numbers of dead spot due to rock caves and hiding places for Mbunas. I thought it will be better to push the water under the gravel because at weekly water change I don't want to move all rocks away. If you think the idea of switching flow is great, I will put two more powerhead and remove air from the UGF. <This is what I would do, oui> Thanks a lot, Philippe. My English is not very good so it could be difficult to read.... <No problem. You are making yourself understood. Merci, Bob Fenner> UGF etc, filters, cycling, FW I have several questions. <Hope we have as many answers> I am going to put a UGF in a 50 gallon tank. Am I correct that you need a 2 inch gravel bed? Now do you layer this gravel evenly over the plates or is it better to have it sloped higher from back to front? <Mmm, about right... depends on the grade, make-up of the actual gravel... and flatter is better, more functional> Also do you recommend power heads over air pumps and if so how do you know the flow rate? <Actually, airlift works quite well... powerheads are fine though... a rule of thumb... no more than two gallons per minute of actual flow per square foot of plate/bottom> For instance a 50 gallon UGF plate comes in two separate pieces so a 48 x 13 is really 2 24 x 13 plates so is the flow rate for a powerhead determined by total tank volume or by gravel bed size? <Ahh! Both... and finer gravel can "take" higher flow rates...> The reason ask this question is because I also have a 72 gal bow front that would take the same filter plates but has 22 gal more water. Is it possible to have too much aeration under the UGF plates? <Yes> Next I understand the cycle process and the need for water changes during this time but how much water and do you vacuum the gravel during this cycle time? <As little as possible... disrupts the establishment... I would only change the water (not disturb the gravel) and ONLY if ammonia or nitrite exceed 1.0 ppm> Also I have some established biological gravel how much do you add to the new tank <A few pounds... even "dirty water" vacuumed from it would do> also I am going to put an Xp1 canister on the 50 gal and I already have a cycled XP2 with 20 BioStars how many can I take from that I will put new ones in place of what I take out) without creating problems? <About half> Thank You for your help Heidi <Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Bob Fenner> Re: UGF etc Thanks for the help! I have searched and don't seem to find definitive answers. So here comes more questions. So if powerheads are used the 50 gallon UGF would use the same rated powerheads as the 72 gallon bow front UGF because the gravel beds are the same dimensions? <Yes... FOR the purpose of the filters themselves... think about this.> Or since the 72 gal is 4 inches deeper do you need more power to drive the UGF? <No my friend... the pushing/pulling through the filter plates, gravel will/would be the same regardless of the depth of the system> If so how do you know how much more power is needed? So if using an air pump to drive UGF do you recommend airstones? <In general, yes... Good flow rate, easy to check on... adds aeration, breaks up surface film... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwugfiltr.htm and the linked files at top> In the instance of the UGF for the 50 g being 2 separate plates, how many lift tubes per plate would be used and how would you be able to tell if the flow rate is where it needs to be and not too much or too little? <I'd only use one lift tube per plate> Is there an acceptable way to calculate and regulate the flow when using air pumps? <Not generally necessary... can be estimated, even physically measured if you'd like to discuss this> Does having the elbow on the lift tubes totally submerged or partially submerged change the flow rate? <Yes, decreases somewhat... worth the trade off in circulation> I understand how to calculate flow rate per min with powerheads but not with air pumps. In the instance that powerheads are used would just 1 powerhead be used per plate and does it matter which lift tube is used? <The ones in the corners, better> There is so much that I still don't know. Hope I am not driving you nuts with these questions. Thanks so much! Heidi <Too late... already there. Bob Fenner> Removing a UGF Hi Don, Dayna here again, thanks for the fast response! Could you give me a few pointers on how I would go about taking the UGF out? Thanks again. Dayna <First I would add another power filter and let it run a good month to become established. Then get out as much gravel as possible and give it a good rinse. Lower the water level to about half. Have replacement water ready. Lift the plate slowly at one side and with a siphon draw out as much of the junk as possible before it floats away into the water. A lot still will, but it will either settle or be filtered out. Replace the gravel and water. Give it an hour or two then replace the filter pads. Leave the bio wheels alone. In a day or two use the gravel vac to get any junk that settled. Test for ammonia and nitrite spikes and do water changes to correct any spikes until things settle down> UGF and Catfish Questions I hate to inundate you with questions, but I can't seem to find the answers to this anywhere else, and you guys always seem to have the right solutions. <No problem, Don here> I have been running an undergravel filter on one of my tanks but I now want to change and use canister filters instead. What do I need to do to make the transition? Can I leave the plate in and just take out the tubes? Should I wait a few weeks to allow the canister filters to get established? (I plan to use an Eheim 2229 wet/dry and an Eheim 2260 on a 215 gallon tank) <You want to remove the plates. Big job in a 215. If you can move the fish for a few hours, do it. If not I would start by siphoning out as much gravel as possible. You can rinse and reuse. Try to get the siphon under the plate before you lift it too far. There is going to be tons of nasty stuff under it. You want to get as much out before it floats away into the water. Don't do this until the new filters are cycled. Watch for ammonia and nitrite spikes afterward> Second question: is there any catfish similar to the giraffe cat that cleans the gravel like it does but does not get as big as the giraffe? <There is a dwarf giraffe catfish, to 8". See here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/cotm/2003_08.php Third: is it necessary to have a CO2 system for a planted aquarium? <No, not for most plants, but some need it and all will benefit. If you add one watch your pH> Last question: can Plecos be used in a fresh water planted aquarium? <Yes, most well fed Plecos will not eat your plants. There is always a chance however, if we're talking about the Common Pleco. I have three Big Spots and three Bristlenose in a lightly planted tank. Never lost a leaf. There are also many meat eating Plecos> Thanks for all of your help, Jim G Gravel, UG Filters Hi There, Another question from an eager listener.... ;) With my current set-up: 125 gallon tank, 2 baby Arowanas (jardinii and yellow tail), and 2 Emperor 400 power filters......I am wondering if I can put gravel to cover the bottom of my fish tank??? I usually just scoop up every morning and night the "poops" of the fishes and 20% water change every week to avoid ammonia and toxic build up. <<Hi there. First, you should buy extensions for your Emperor intakes, that will help a bit with circulation, the filters will be able to suck up waste from a lower level.>> What are the disadvantages of putting gravel in my tank? How will I be able to clean it and remove the "poops"? <<You can buy a gravel siphon at any decent Local Fish Store. (LFS).>> Will just stirring the gravel and using a vacuum do the trick to clean them? <<Gravel vacuuming will do the trick. Vacuuming with your siphon should be done weekly, when you do a water change. Not only does a siphon remove detritus from the gravel, it removes water at the same time. Use a good thermometer, take it to the sink with you when you start filling buckets to re-fill the tank with...the water should be the same temp! Add dechlorinator to each bucket as you re-fill. Better yet, buy yourself a Python. Ask for these handy hose kits at your LFS.>> Will I be needing an undergravel filter for this set-up? Or will my 2 Emperor 400 power filters be enough? What if I make it 3 Emperor 400's? <<Undergravel filters are more trouble than they are worth, IME. Your two Emperors should be sufficient for the time being, you only have two small arows in this tank. You should keep in mind that with a larger bio-load, you may need to add filtration later. In other words, if you add more fish, or when your arrows are about 6-8 inches or so you may need to upgrade. You should keep an eye on their growth and on the tank, an overly dirty aquarium means insufficient filtration, not enough water changes, and/or inadequate maintenance is being done. You will realize it IF the time comes.>> It is just a laborious duty to have an undergravel filter.....plus in time, a build up of wastes...will lower the ph of the tank......are some of the reasons why I am hesitant using undergravel filter. <<I agree. There are many filters out there that are much easier to maintain, and do a great job. No need for UGF's at all.>> Thanks, Antonio <<Welcome. -Gwen>> Undergravel filtration, and funky water quality Dear fish saviors, <Good afternoon, Kaz - Sabrina here with you this lovely (rainy) lunch hour> I've had a long and generally successful fishkeeping career but this year 2 of my goldfish died (at ages 19 and 17 years old). <Oh my. What a loss. I'm so sorry to hear that.> Only one sad survivor was left. I was away, the water went 'off' and they died :( Anyway, I worked hard to stabilize the tank with the Lone Black Moor (who had some scars, general poor condition, floating prob.s etc). He came good and after a few months I got LBM some friends - a small comet and a small fantail. My problems came back. The new guys were hungry all the time and I am guilty of giving in to their shameless begging. <Just say 'no'! to fish obesity ;) > Also I changed fish food on advice of LFS (sinking pellets, 34% protein) and am not sure if this has contributed to the instability. <And what were you feeding with before? Do your guys get any vegetable matter?> LBM seemed happier and with more energy but developed two little white spotty bits on his head. These then seem to have gone away (I treated with fungal cure) but he has a new one further back on his head. <Can you describe this in a bit further detail? Do the spots stick out? Or are they pits? Are they fuzzy looking? Waxy looking? Look like cauliflower? How big are they?> After uncontrollable Ph problems I checked with LFS and changed my filtration system (from charcoal and wool type filter to undergravel filtration). <Filtration isn't very directly related to pH swings (except as far as organic materials building up), I can't imagine why they told you to switch....> But my question is (I know its very naive but..) how to I keep it clean? I have used the gravel siphon cleaner thingie and have done a 25% water change since I got the UGF two weeks ago but my plants are disintegrating. <Argh. UGF and live plants do *not* play well together, and there's not much of a way to make 'em work out. Your only plant species is elodea, correct? Perhaps try letting it float only, and see if it grows any better.> We work in centimetres and litres here in Australia <I wish we did, too!> so I'm not sure of how many gallons but tank is 24inches x 12inches x 12inches. It is certainly not overcrowded, with the LBM and his two new little friends and the plants are (or were) Elodea. <Okay, I do believe that's about 15 US gallons. I usually recommend goldfish to be kept in tanks where they'll have 15-20 gallons per fish; they are hefty waste producers, and can foul the water very, very quickly. Three goldfish in a 15g aquarium with an undergravel filter.... well, I can guess that in short order, you'll have some serious nitrate problems, possibly other water quality issues, even with the best maintenance possible.> How do I clean the crud which I assume is collecting under the plastic UGF tray??? <Wonderful question. I've heard using silicone air hose fed down the lift tube(s) and siphoning from there will help get some of the grunge out.> Should I go easy on the gravel siphon thingie? <Gosh, no. Vacuum like a madman. And slap that wet/dry filter back on the tank, too. Then when you vacuum your gravel, let the filter cartridge stay in the filter so you've got plenty of bacterial life still around. Probably only vacuum about half the tank each time, as well.> Did another partial change today and the fish are happy and starving but there are lots of floaty bits of plant matter still in there. Should I siphon these out? <Yes, absolutely. Dead, decaying plant matter will contribute to ammonia problems just as will fish waste.> When I do water changes I use Cycle, ammonia treatment, <Skip the ammonia remover, unless you're registering ammonia on your ammonia test - oho, I should mention/ask that you should be testing for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH - if you don't, please do get yourself a kit, so you can have a better grip on your water quality. And far better than using ammonia remover schtuff is to simply do more frequent water changes.> pH stabilizer, <What's the pH out of your tap? It's far more important to keep pH stable than to keep affecting it chemically; goldfish are very pH tolerant, so if your tapwater's anywhere close to decent, they'll be fine with out pH altering chemicals.> StressZyme, Tristart chlorine and chloramine remover. I let the water sit for 24hours, make sure the temp is the same etc. <Wonderful.> My main concern is that I found out from your site that UGF require lots of work but what work? can you let me know what I need to do to keep my friends happy! <Mostly the weekly vacuuming of gravel, jamming air hose down lift tubes. UGFs must be cleaned thoroughly and religiously, lest all that waste building up in the gravel begin to poison the fish. If it is in any way whatsoever possible, please please try to get a larger tank for these fellahs. Believe me, they'd thank you for it. Wishing you and your scaly pals well, -Sabrina> Cheers, Kaz Undergravel filtration, and funky water quality - take two Thanks, Sabrina, Will head off and get the testing kit today. <Wonderful! Try to get a liquid reagent type kit, the test 'strips' that you just dip in the water can be grossly inaccurate.> I suppose what puzzles me is how come I could keep the same number of goldfish (and same type) in the same tank for 8 years (since the last fish arrived) with little problem - long living and happy fish - and now everything's going wrong?? <Likely when you went away and the water turned south started your problems. These are really, really messy, waste producing fish, and in such a small tank, missing even one regular water change will result in a buildup of waste toxic enough to kill them. Hence the major reason I usually recommend 15-20 US gallons per goldfish, there's SO much more room for error in a larger tank.> The white spots on the remaining old fish are small and very white, about large pinhead size, they seem to stick out and after a few days just fade to nothing. <This sounds like either Lymphocystis or fish pox, both of which can be found in goldfish from time to time. Lymphocystis is kinda cauliflower-like in appearance, whereas fish pox looks rather waxy. Both are viral infections, and there is no treatment. Fortunately, neither are often fatal. Just maintain the best water quality you can, with regular water changes and testing, and he should be fine.> Apart from plants in the tank I don't give them any veggies - should I? Thanks! Kaz <Couldn't hurt. Mine adore unsalted canned peas (rinse, and squeeze the inside of the pea out of the shell). Blanched zucchini is another good one. Lots of goodies out there for them, but just the Elodea will do, if necessary. Best wishes to you, -Sabrina> |
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