Adding co2 to a sulfur denitrator? -- 10/21/2009
Dear WWM
<Larry>
I have a sulfur denitrator which uses a Korallin 1502 shell. I was wondering if the denitrifying bacteria that live in the sulfur can live and work in a co2 enriched environment?
<Yes... often carbon is a/the rate-limiting (Amtal Rule) source material; hence folks feeding sugars, alcohols...>
The reason for injecting co2 would be to increase the calcium output of the denitrator.
<? Do you have a source of this alkaline earth element in your reactor?>
My well water even after my R.O. and polisher has a ph of 7.8 with the denitrator I can push it to 8.0 with out buffering. After that it requires buffer which drives up my ALK. The system is 240 gal with a 150 gal. refug.
Lots of circulation in main tank. I have about 68 mixed corals, 8 fish largest about 3" in addition to a fair clean up crew. I can do this it would save adding a separate calcium reactor. Thank you.
Larry
<Mmm, if I'm following you here, you can likely improve your system overall with some careful (metered) input of carbon dioxide being fed into the reactor... I would mix some sort of CaCO3 in with the Sulphur beads. Bob Fenner>

Re: Adding co2 to a sulfur denitrator?  10/21/09
Thank you Bob
<Welcome Larry>
The sulfur denitrator I have is a new innovation designed and tested at the aquarium of France. It works exactly like the Korallin 1502 calcium reactor.
The difference is the bottom 1/3 is sulfur beads the top 2/3 a calcium media like ARM in addition there is no Co2 added.
<Ah yes, have seen this... the CO2 can be scavenged/released from the calcium carbonate/ARM... in the reductive ("acidic") circumstances in the contactor>
. There are no sugars added like many sulfur systems. I hope this clears up any confusion about what I have.
Thank you again for your help.
Larry
<These units can/do work under some circumstances. BobF>

Re: Adding co2 to a sulfur denitrator?  10/21/09
Thanks Bob
<Welcome Lar>
If I understand you right you don't feel that the addition of Co2 gas will hurt the bacteria in the sulfur bed.
<Up to a point, it should help... You don't want to add so much that the pH drops precipitously...>
I would set the Co2 gas injection system up just like a normal calcium reactor. Using a bubbler and a ph
monitoring system like the 122 with slave valve for the gas. I would start with 5- 10 bubbles/min.
<This should be fine>
I just wonder why no one has done this before!!
<I do think it has... Not likely commercially viable commercially, as the CO2 cylinder purchase/lease, regulator, needle valve, monitor... would put the cost beyond what most folks would pay. BobF>
Larry

Re: Adding co2 to a sulfur denitrator?  10/21/09
Bob
I have used this sulfur denitrator in my old 75 gal tank with a 30gal refug.
It worked great and kept my nitrates at 0 and calcium a little high if I didn't watch it. The 75 was wall to wall corals and about 25 fish. I swear by them. It just won't provide enough calcium for my combined 400gal
system.
<Perhaps a larger unit... or "ganging" another all CaC03 unit after the denitrator... or a better, more soluble source of carbonate (try Korallith, Knop's product...)>
I can either buy a calcium reactor or if I can get a little more out of the sulfur denitrator by adding Co2 I won't need to.
Thank you
Larry
<There are other approaches... do consider the few I've mentioned here. BobF>

Re: Adding co2 to a sulfur denitrator? – 10/22/09
Bob
<Big L>
Thanks for the info. I just purchased a Korallin 1002 I will add it to system. Then maybe I will experiment with the Co2 in the sulfur system. It would be an interesting concept if it works.
Larry
<I do agree... and would like to relate that like A. Einstein et al.s "radical" designs for refrigeration (yes, including nuclear)... I've seen some very adventurous denitrator engineering... A few Interzoo's (Int'l industry/trade show) back, I saw a hand-blown glass menagerie from an Italian co. that fed H2SO4 (yep, Sulfuric Acid) into a carbonate source to feed such a unit... Wowzah! B>
Cool!

Re: Adding co2 to a sulfur denitrator? 10/24/09
Bob
<Hi there Lar!>
It has been a pleasure talking with you. It is nice to meet someone in this field who is not entrenched in the tried and true and keeps an open mind to new innovations and ideas.
Thanks
Larry
<I will state the same re my impression of you, yours. Cheers! BobF>

New-Fangled Denitrator Thingy...?
Hi Folks:
<Hi there! Scott F. at the keyboard today!>
Always new gadgets showing up on the market. This time its a Sulfur Denitrator. What's your take on this item, anything to it? Pro, cons, and etc. As always I appreciate you comments. Rick Luckert
<Well Rick, I am not familiar with the particular denitrator that you're referring to here. However, I have seen a number of "denitrator" products on the market over the years, most of them reasonably effective, all of them seeming to require considerable maintenance and "tweaking" to do their jobs effectively! Frankly, I believe that a well-maintained deep sand bed, either in the display or in a remote location (a sump or refugium), is the best approach to denitrification. When coupled with regular maintenance techniques (water changes, protein skimmer cleaning, etc.), you'd be hard-pressed to find a better system to do the job, IMO! That's my two cents on the subject! Regards, Scott F.>

Sulfur denitrification 
Hello, 
Sorry for the msg.? and thank you for your time. 
<No worries and glad to help> 
I was reading and I found material about the sulfur denitrification (using sulfur as media for bacterial colonies). I know that the best against pollution is dilution and the control of nutrients, but in my country (Argentine) is very expensive the RO water and 
equipment, and for that reason I'm always looking for new method of improvement, and also I am a DIY guy. For that reason tell me what do you think about the sulfur denitrification.. 
<Quite popular in some countries in Europe... but virtually unknown in the U.S.> 
MY system is 50 gal FOWLR with a few snails and a Condy (with 100W halogen lamp over), all over Crushed shell, no coral sand and DSB, because is too expensive.  Do you think that is better remove the crushed shells and leave the bare bottom with the LR in order to reduce the nitrate level(50mg/l). 
<Mmm, that or make the bed pretty deep... several inches if the average particle size is more than 5-6 mm.> 
I do siphon 5 gal every 2 weeks but is always the same , the level goes up. 
Thank you in advance and sorry for my English.  Eckhard 
<No problemo. Yo entiendo todo aqui. What are your actual nitrate readings? Have you considered making a denitrifying bed in a sump/refugium and tying its volume to your main system? Bob Fenner>

- Sulphur Reactor De-nitrification -
Hi Guys.
I am relatively new to reef keeping (11 months) and have just invested in an Aqua Medic Sulphur reactor in an attempt to reduce my rising nitrate levels (currently 50ppm). I have recently set the unit up at 1 drop per second flow rate while it matures.
I have, however, noted that the instructions state that you should also pump the water that leaves the filter through a bed of hydrogen carbonate to neutralize the by-product of the process, sulphuric acid. <Sounds reasonable.> I assume that this has been suggested to avoid a reduction in PH levels?. <Among other things - alkaline reserve.>
I have checked the instructions for other units and have not identified any similar units which state this as a particular requirement, however, they do state that PH levels of the water leaving the unit will be reduced.
I would be grateful if anyone could advise on whether this is a requirement specific to the AquaMedic unit or whether all units require some form of secondary filtering to increase PH. <Given the nature of the byproduct of this type of reactor, I'd think some type of secondary reaction to reduce the strength of the sulphuric acid would be most useful.>
My initial view was that I would compensate any effect on PH by buffering the water as well as ensuring that the return tube from the filter feeds into a high flow area of the tank. <For certain, you're going to have to do something... your pH will hit the floor eventually if you don't.>
In addition, does anyone have any idea what the maximum flow rate through the unit is once the reactor has started to work. <No... should check with AquaMedic on that one.> I assume that you are not limited to 1 drop per second as maximum flow? <Probably not.>
Any help would be much appreciated
Thanks
Jason
<Cheers, J -- >

- Sulphur Reactor De-nitrification, Follow-up -
Thanks for the quick response, <My pleasure.> looks like in going to have to go for the additional unit.  Better to be safe then sorry. <Agreed.>
Cheers Guys
<Cheers, J -- >

Help with DIY of sulfur denitrification
Hi,
<Hello there>
I’m a new visitor to your site and find it very helpful.
<Ah, good>
I am designing a sulfur denitrification system. I bought 3 six-foot clear plastic tubes that are six inches in diameter each. It has been suggested that start the water flowing through one tube filled with sulfur beads. Then I am to send the water through a second tube filled with calcium carbonate sand. This should return the water to normal pH while dissolving part of the sand thereby, raising calcium levels. Any comments? (Please try to limit your laughter.)
<Mmm, not a laughing matter, particularly should you not remove all the sulfur by-product...>
I need help to calculate the approximate water flow rate. I can calculate how long it would take water to pass through the first volume but do you know how long it will take to turn anaerobic?
<Too many variables to consider... I would experiment here... with measured flow rate/s, a time device with a second measure... and either dissolved oxygen and/or pH as a measure of anaerobiosis>
Do you have any suggestions for using part of the third tube to create a fluidized chamber? Could I use excess CO2 that comes from the sulfur bed?
<I would have an "ammonia tower" arrangement... a reverse flow oxygenating device to blow air up as the water is cascading down plastic media...>
Thanks a lot,
Asa
<Please keep good notes, records of your activity, thoughts here, and send along your results if you will. Bob Fenner>

Denitrators. Does anyone know anything about denitrators? – 07/22/07
Hi, Does anyone know anything about denitrators?
<Quite popular in Europe, especially in ancient times when live rock wasn’t widely available. See http://www.wetwebmedia.com/denitrification_erfaqs.htm for answers to the most common questions.>
and do you know which denitrator is the best on the market?
<It certainly depends on the size and type of system. For small and medium sized reef and FOWLR systems up to 250 gallons (and possibly even larger) I’d prefer live rock, DSB and a large refugium (possibly with some macro algae), this combination is better and more cost efficient. A good skimmer will also be very helpful with any nitrate issue.>
I have been looking at one made by Reef Octopus and it uses Sulphur.
<Do they still build them? See their homepage. I do not have experience with this specific product, but the newer ones are very similar (disclaimer: manufacturers may disagree). A problem I see with some models is that the ReDox potential (see http://www.wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm if unknown to you) should be monitored and there should be some auto-regulation to avoid toxic water (nitrite, ammonia) getting into the tank. Usually simply some type of aeration is applied at the water outlet to ensure everything non gaseous is turned to nitrates again. What if for some reason the aeration fails or drops and there is no monitoring? As stated above, I’d go with other types of natural nitrate reduction for most home systems and leave denitrators with Sulphur to very large high end systems where live rock cannot be used in serious amounts.>
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Maison.
<Hope that helps. Marco.>

Sulfur De-Nitrator
A make shift version, will it work – 03/03/09
I have been scouring thru your forums trying to find more information about these de-Nitrator. As of yet, it doesn't seem that anyone there has any more info than the basic explanation as to what it does. I have a 5 year old 75gal reef with a 40 gal sump
<http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/diy-projects/8213-sulfur-denitrator-build.html#>/refugium. (most soft corals and about 8 med sized fish) and I am board
<Heeee!>
with so many water changes.
I wanted to get into the Sulfur De-Nitrator for the ability to not have to change water so much and also to not be so darn particular when feeding my fish/corals (worry about waste/nitrates) I had also read that the ARM reaction to the acidic output will supply some calcium to lessen the frequency that I dose Kalk.
<This is so>
I purchased 2 ViaAqua Poly Reactors:
ViaAqua Poly-Reactor (Multi-Media Reactor)<http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem.aspx?category=ViaAqua_Poly_Reactor_(Multi_Media_Reactor)_Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies_
Filters_Inline___Specialty_Filters_Phosphate_Reactors&vendor=ViaAqua&SearchStr=va3311&action=
view&idProduct=VA3311&idCategory=FIFRISPR&child=VA3311>
and:
CaribSea A.R.M.
Aragonite<http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/diy-projects/8213-sulfur-denitrator-build.html#> Reactor Media
CaribSea L.S.M. Live Sulfur Media 1 Gallon
I wanted to know if this setup will work, I was going to start with a VERY small amount of Sulfur (1/3 filled) in the first chamber and 2/3rds filled ARM in the second chamber. I was going to start with a 1 drip/hr rate
<Mmm, what "drip" units? Likely adequately slow... a few gallons per hour will be fine>
and adjust as necessary. (I run a 24hr PH<http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/diy-projects/8213-sulfur-denitrator-build.html#> monitor)
I wanted to also know if anyone has heard any long term effects with running this setup, like Sulfur buildup in the main tank after months/years?
<Mmm, not likely, no. Sulfur reactors have actually been "around" for several years (mainly in W. European use)... they are a tried and true technology>
Since most pumps will have too much power for the 1 drip/sec requirement,
<Oh, here it is>
I also had thought about putting 6 foot of tubing from the tank to the 1st chamber to let oxygen dissipate before the sulfur chamber and a 6 foot tubing after the second chamber to the tank to make sure sulfur does not reach the main tank, is this over thinking it?
<Mmm, I think so... but try this out and see>
Also, do I need to create some sort of gas release value for any nitrogen output in the process?
<No... this bit of inert gas will/would just be driven out, released to the atmosphere>
Thank you for any help/suggestions, I will send pictures after the setup is complete.
Gary
<Please do Gary... along with snapshot/s of your water quality test data over time. Bob Fenner>

Denitrators And Nitrite 8/27/09
Bob,
<James with you today.>
I am in the process of setting up a coil/sulfur denitrator and am having a slight problem. Even at a slow drip of 1 drop per 3 seconds, I get almost 1ppm of nitrite. Is it safe to assume that the anaerobic colony is insufficient and only stripping off one of the two oxygen molecules from the nitrate? If so, would it be okay to allow the system to go to a complete stop allowing the reaction to go completely to the right. I know hydrogen sulfide may form, but the bacteria colony would increase, wouldn't it?
<No, once you smell hydrogen sulphide, anaerobic conditions have been reached and the reactor will not work properly as the denitrator operates under anoxic conditions.>
Once I smell the rotten eggs, I could start introducing fresh nitrates and expose the effluent to my Sander Ozonizer to oxidize the hydrogen sulfide.
Another alternative would be to run the denitrator on an empty QT and feed the colony some skimmate. Any golden nuggets of wisdom you could throw my way would be greatly appreciated.
<It will take some time for anoxic conditions to be established within the denitrator so do be patient. It is possible to speed up this process by the addition of a carbon source to the water. This carbon source will be processed by bacteria with3in the unit, using oxygen up and generating the low oxygen levels needed for proper operation. This can be done by adding about 25 milliliters of vodka (please do not use Absolut Vodka, is a waste of good vodka) or a sugar solution to the denitrator column.
Let the circulation pump run a day or so making sure no new water enters the column. This process should lower the ORP to a usable level in that time frame.
Then, start with a very low flow rate and check daily for any hint of hydrogen sulphide.
If it is detected, the denitrator will require more oxygen and a small increase in flow rate will be needed. This is the "fine tuning" period, and may take quite some time to tune in properly. If, after 4 to 5 weeks of operation, and no nitrate reduction occurs, you will need to reduce the flow rate a very small amount, and this may have to be repeated if after 2 to 3 weeks, no nitrate reduction is noted. This is the negative side of sulphur nitrate reactors, time consuming to properly set up and is the main reason I have never incorporated one in my system. Once the sulphur denitrator is tuned and running, keep an eye on alkalinity and pH. Alkalinity will be used up faster than without the denitrator in operation, so an increase of alkalinity buffers may be needed. A RedOx meter that can read negative values is a very useful tool for fine tuning denitrators. The ideal ORP range would be between -100 to -250 with -170 being optimum. Above -50 indicates too much oxygen for the denitrator to function properly, and below -300 indicates the water has reached anaerobic conditions, at which point hydrogen sulphide will be produced.
Perhaps other crew members may chime in here with their thoughts/ideas on setting up/fine tuning sulphur denitrators.>
Regards,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
James Miller
Okayama, Japan
PS. I am going to Kochi, Japan tomorrow to hunt for a small round belly cowfish and some Zoanthids. :-)

Re Denitrators And Nitrite 9/9/09
James,
<Hello James, like that name.>
I am finally getting zero nitrites and nitrates out of the denitrator.
<Great.>
It appears my combining a rather long coil (7 meters of 6mm ID airline) was overly effective at removing the O2. This plus the double reaction chambers meant almost 10 meters of travel, so it went anaerobic. Speeding up the effluent with a small colony meant nitrite. I sped up the drip and allowed nitrite to escape into an ozone reaction chamber returning any nitrite back to nitrate. The increased flow appears to have allowed the colony to multiply as I can now process a gallon an hour with zero nitrates or nitrites.
I guess patience was the key.
<Very much so with these type systems.>
Hopefully I can now keep my nitrates low enough to keep my corals happy. I thank you for your advice.
<You're welcome, and thank you for the follow up.
James (Salty Dog)>
Regards,
James Miller
Okayama, Japan