MarAngSelFAQ2

FAQs about Marine Angelfish Stocking/Selection 2

Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
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by Robert (Bob) Fenner

Re: Travis Carter’s Mega Angel Tank 1/2/20
Bob - I am getting mix views on this on the forums and i typically take what i read on the forums with a grain of salt. I would much rather defer to the caliber of experience such as yours. Could you answer this for me...
Do you think a combo of Annularis, French, Queen and Imperator Angles can coexist long term in a 650 gallon? 96x36x45.
<Oh, yes I do think these three Pomacanthids can, would likely get along indefinitely in a system of this size, shape. Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Stephen
Re: Travis Carter’s Mega Angel Tank 1/2/20
Thanks Bob for the information and vote of confidence!
<Ahh, glad to render it! BobF>

Watanabei/bleeding stomach 8/14/19
Hey bob, crew
<Big B>
Picked up this watanabei, 2 inch specimen two days ago.
<Mmm, really too small for Genicanthus Angels to be collected. Like Goldilocks and the tres Ursids and porridge ave. kinetic energy, there is an ideal range of size for gathering wild stocks... too small and they don't survive trauma, stress of netting, holding, shipping... too large they don't adapt to captivity...>
Had him in quarantine since, and on day 3 developed an odd swimming pattern.
He would swim head up, close proximity to surface. At times he would “pipe” at surface. Didn’t eat last day.
<Damaged likely>
Came home and he was dead about 6 hours later. An apparent wound or lesion in lower belly area, unilateral. Only fish in tank, no sharp rocks or edges other than pvc. Please see photo:
Would swim bladder issue present itself as a bleeding wound? I’m thinking it could be Uronema.
<No time for parasites... Likely as stated. Try a 3-4" specimen in good shape to start>
Thanks, bob
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Watanabei/bleeding stomach 8/15/19
Bob,
Thank you. Didn’t realize that was still too small, I passed over 1 inch specimens for this 2.5 inch.
<Ahh>
The lfs I acquired him from brought in two of these. The one I got, and another one, the same size.
That one is still alive. When someone like me sees the one I got dead, who came on same time as the one who is still alive (same size) can the hobbyist attribute that to the one I got had 1 more move and acclimation (mine) and that’s what did/ will do them in?
<Not enough sample size to state anything with certainty>
He offered me the other fish still there at reduced cost, but I am going to pass.
Thanks again, Bobby
<Welcome. BobF>

Koran and Annularis in 265? 11/16/16
<Hi John, Earl here.>
Hello-
Please advise on your thoughts of mixing a Koran Angel (about 4 1/2" and currently in the tank) with a Annularis Angel (about 5" to 6", considering a purchase of it) in a 265 gallon live rock set-up (maybe 125 pounds of rock, i.e.; wanted to keep more swimming room). I have a 40 gallon sump, over sized skimmer, lots of flow from oversized powerheads, and return pump). If not an Annularis, any large Angels you would feel might be more successfully mixed (and would be hardy) with the Koran in a 265? As always, thank you for your very wonderful advice.
John
<You didn't mention what if any other inhabitants are in this tank, which is a consideration. Bioload, social structure, how does the existing angel respond to current tankmates? That aside, that is a pretty hefty tank for a hefty fish. The Annularis, while a gorgeous species (now being captive-bred if memory serves) is still going to be a plate-sized 8-10 incher as a healthy adult. Which happens faster than you might like or expect! IF you plan on keeping just the two as a sort of large-angel tank, maybe with some very small "dither fish" like Chromis to give a little more movement and
visual diversity, it would be worth trying IMO. Also consider that these are customers who demand some sponge in their diet.
Your main concern here seems to be their interactions with each other.
Usually I would not suggest 2 large angels together but with space, a lot of grazing rock, broken-up eyelines, hiding places, etc. I would cautiously try it out if your heart is set on it. The Koran and large rowdy fish generally tend towards territoriality as they age and the Koran is a dinner plate sized animal when full grown. These guys (Pomacanthids) have a lot of personality and in my experience are smart and therefore hard to categorize like we might do with others. It's largely down to the individuals involved. Give it a try if you like and just have a game plan as to how you'll remove one if "negotiations do not go according to plan".
Hope this helps and please let us know how it goes. -Earl C.>
Re: Koran and Annularis in 265? 11/16/16
Earl-
Thank you so much for the advice. All very good points on your part. I've decided that I need to dial back my enthusiasm (as far as adding any more to my tank) for large Angels and be satisfied with my Koran (who's been a
wonderful fish for about 2 years) and not push the envelope.
<You're preachin' to the choir about dialing back enthusiasm for angelfish...I have been eyeballing a bigger tank to keep more angels for year now! Playing it safe with 2 in the same tank is definitely the surest route.>
Like you said, beyond their beauty, the Pomacanthids have so much personality that I keep wanting to add another.
<If you have a second system, I love the smaller angels as well. Maybe look into those.>
Based upon the bio-load in the tank, I believe I can safely add another fish and might try a Caribbean Blue Tang. I've had really good luck with several types of tangs (Purple, Yellow, Hippo, Naso, Sailfin, ...etc.) in various tanks over the years. The Caribbean Blue Tang seems to be a sometimes overlooked tang, one I've never owned yet, but that appears to be a good aquarium specimen per Bob's write-up of it. Thanks again!
<My two cents here is that if you can find one you like, and that stays reasonably small, look into Rabbitfish (Siganidae family). They fulfill the same general role as far as grazers on algae, are far more hardy and have a very laid-back demeanor and are generally ignored by other fish. 10/10 fish. Check out scribbled, Foxface, magnificent and one-spot Foxface maybe.
Be sure to check that max size as they (and many tangs such as powder blues) get bigger than we'd like. Just an alternative suggestion.>

Multiple Angels in reef tank ‏ 11/10/14
Hello again Mr. F.
I am writing you again with a different question: some time ago I was telling you about my fish list that I would like to add to my 1000 l reef, asking your opinion, and your comment was : "nice". But now I have found 2
of them ,a beautiful P. Diacanthus and a C. Duboulayi. They belonged in an marine exhibition and I personally know them for at least 2 years which gives them the advantage of being acclimated, eating all kind of foods and being apparently free of diseases. They are both adults. They cost a lot of money and more important I want to keep the equilibrium of my tank so, should I get them and house them with : Zanclus Cornutus ( 2 years in there ) , Naso tang, P. Imperator - almost an adult, he is good, only sometimes it grunts at the others when feeding -, Z. flavescens x2 , Z. Xanthurum, A. Japonicus, P. Hepatus, sixline wrasse, 2x mandarins, C.Bicolor, 2 x wrasse
( Halichoeres) ?
The think that gives me hope is that the Imperator is smaller than the two and of different genus.
Thank you in advance,
Andrei from Romania
<Mmm; I would not be adding much more fish-wise here in this size, volume system. Bob Fenner>
Re: Multiple Angels in reef tank 11/10/14
Hello and thank you for the quick answer.
Well, the question was if I should get the P. Diacanthus and the Scribbled angelfish giving my fishes present in the DT right now and the special good condition of the 2 new possible additions.
Please excuse me for my English, sometimes I cannot explain myself.
Thank you,
Andrei
<Was just too sleepy this AM; but for me I would not add these two large angels here... Too likely to be discord with your present fishes. IF you do add them, MAKE SURE you have a plan for their removal, placement elsewhere.
BobF>

Angelfish ; stkg. mortalities 4/17/14
Hey Bob,
<Robert>
Emailed you before about various topics. This next question is more of your opinion than an black or white matter.
In my FO system of 155 gallons, I successfully keep an Achilles tang,
Powder Blue tang, Aussie Tusk, Sailfin Tang, Green Bird wrasse and a Maculiceps. My parameters are good (1.022 sg, 79 degrees F, Nitrite 0, Amm. 0, and Nitrates 40. I have in my opinion plenty of flow (2 return pumps @ 600 gph after head pressure, and an MP40 wavemaker) I use a UV light and oversized Protein skimmer. I also use only RO water.
For some reason, I can not keep angelfish alive. In the past month, I have tried a Queen Angel, Koran Angel, French Angel, and a Scribbled angel (albeit at different times) and have lost them all within a week. The seem to follow the same fate, they eat really good, and slowly develop cloudy eyes, random body spots (not Ich) and surely after die.
<Strange>
My only guesses as to why are 1. overcrowding, 2. Source of these angel fish. However, they all come in looking fine and eating.
<Mmm; and the other fishes listed... would not likely harass these Pomacanthids>
In your opinion, are angel fish just so hit or miss, that anything happens, or is there something I am missing? I feed Nori, 2 full sheets daily,
<Not much food value; good for filler for tangs>
Spectrum Thera Pellets, and frozen once a day. This consist of PE Mysis, squid, krill, clams and frozen angel and butterfly formula (san fran brand). I also soak frozen in Selcon twice a week. I do 15 percent water changes weekly, and have about 70 lbs of live rock.
Any suggestions or thoughts would be invaluable.
Thanks
<I'd try a better source... maybe even mail-order (Dr.s F & S)... and quarantine the new Angel for a week or two. BobF>
Re: Angelfish 4/17/14
Thank you, Bob.
<Welcome>
One minor detail I did leave out, is upon death of the Angel fish, I removed them at once, and placed in fresh RO water, (more so to preserve fish until I find suitable grave, as opposed to letting them rot in the open) and have discovered some fluke like objects popping off.
<Likely are/were Trematodes... easily defeated/removed via pH adjusted FW (plus formalin if I were doing it) dips...>
Not many, I have seen much heavier infestations in fish that are alive.
However they are there, and I do not see them on my other fish, even while FW dipping. Are flukes always present in the fish, and that is normal, or could this have been the silent killer.
<... there are some flukes that are more family, genus, even species specific. I'd be reading on WWM re... perhaps the use of cleaner organisms.
B>

Angelfish stocking (Lg., SW) 12/30/13
Hello,
I was reading my new book, The Conscientious Marine Aquarist,
<Oh! I know the author>
and was hoping to get some clarification about the possibility of housing large Angelfish in a reef aquarium.
<Can be done... after all, most species are found the majority of time on reefs>
Previously I had written that idea off, but perhaps that was too hasty? I actually read that it is recommended to house French Angels with corals. I would LOVE to have a large Angelfish!
<Just need a large space... habitat>
I have a 265 gallon tank that I am still getting ideas for in stocking. Currently I have a Regal Tang, two Cinnamon Clownfish, three Ocellaris Clownfish, one Stocky Anthias, five Truncate Anthias (the Anthias all look alike and interact as if they were the same species), and one Algae Blenny. I have a few coral frags that don’t look like much yet in such a large tank. They could easily be relocated to my other reef tank if having an Angel meant a certain coral species was more likely to be eaten. It is my intention to have a thriving reef tank.
I understand that “reef safe” is very relative, but could having a large Angelfish be a decent idea in this system?
<Could>
From what I’ve read, I was thinking a Queen, French, Half Moon, or Passer Angelfish. Are any of these a better candidate?
<Yes... see WWM re all listed... the French is best here, then the Half Moon...>
Would avoiding certain coral species give me better luck?
<Mmm, yes... again; there are some less-palatable varieties, general groups... e.g. most very fleshy types (LPS) are more tempting>
From the reading I have done on your site it appears people stick with FOWLR with these fish.
Thanks so much for your time!
Sincerely,
Alyssa
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Another large angel question... stkg./sel. for 220 SPS 7/5/13
Hello Crew,
<Andrew>
My name is Andrew and have been keeping reefs for a number of years. I have just recently gotten permission from my better half to set up a 220gallon.
So here goes nothing. Am i able to have either Pomacanthus imperator or Pygoplites diacanthus
<The Regal; the Emperor gets too large for a 220>
in a sps only system.
<... may nibble>
Planned stock list other than an angel are as follows 6 Bartlett's Anthias, purple tang, red line wrasse, melanurus wrasse, grey headed wrasse and about ten green Chromis. I have searched and read for hours. I am willing to forgo clams, softies and lps in order to have one of these fish.
Also are they known to eat chalices.
Thank you,
Andrew Bramlett
<See WWM re compatibility for all you list, propose. Bob Fenner>

Angel Fish Questions... stkg./sel. and by species 5/7/13
Hello WWM Crew,
<Howdy>
I have a 210 gallon reef with 9 damsels, 1 Flame angel, 1 Hippo Tang, 1 Purple tang, 1 Fox Face and 1 Mandarin fish. Last weekend I added some angel fish and I would like to know if it is a disaster waiting to happen. I added 2 Flame angels, one Lemon peel and a 4" Majestic.
<Yikes! Well, the system is perhaps large enough to accommodate the Flame trio... if they're all small size (a few inches) now... The Majestic is hard to keep from most collecting areas... the better hail from Bali... Do make sure yours is getting food>
I was told the last one was reef safe.
<Mmm, not really; unless the system is huge>
The first day, all the flames start fighting but now after 3 days they seem to co-exist with each other well. They learn to stay away from each other and I rarely see any fighting other than some mild chasings every now and then. The Majestic is really shy and comes out every now and then. I am not sure if it is eating or not. My tank has clams, hammerheads, frog spawn, toadstool, Galaxea, flowerpot, mushrooms, and few hard corals. Do you think eventually the Majestic will come out and mingle with the rest?
<It most likely will perish. See WWM re the genus, species>
Did I make a mistake in my stocking?
<Again; likely so>
The water chemistry is always within normal limits. I thank you for your reply.
<Read on! Bob Fenner>
Re: Angel Fish Questions
Thank you for your replies. I at times wonder why retailers keep selling these expensive fish with dismay records.
<Good question; and one I've pondered long and hard.... Tis number one because they sell... other elements; their beauty and grace, that these are historically, perpetually species collected (yes); their relative abundance, ease of capture... Still, as you hint/suggest... On the plus side is the idea that folks WILL learn how to successfully husband them>
I wish I have done better research before I plucked down 150 bucks for the Majestic. I however keep seeing Majestic thriving on YouTube videos so maybe there is hope??? Thank you and I am a fan of your book!!!
<Ahh! There is always hope. Thank you, BobF>

Regal Angel Question, then lg. Angel sel. – 09/24/12
To whom it may concern,
<Ok>
I have read your article below about Regal Angels. I am still interested in trying one. I have a 240 gallon tank with several hundred pounds of live rock and several tangs along with 5 clownfish. I have a dealer in Michigan Tropicorium that has two nice Regals that are feeding well. Unfortunately both are from the Philippines region. If they are eating well should I consider buying one or simply walk away till one from the Red Sea comes in?
<Up to you>
If you get them feeding on Spectrum and provide meaty and green foods should I expect to get a long life span out of one of these fish?
<Possibly>
Your article seems to say almost all die.
<Most from the Indo-Pacific do have much shortened captive life spans; but as the years have gone by, a larger percentage (still under 10%), live a year or more. Bob Fenner>
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pygoplites/index.htm
Christopher Faiola
Re: Regal Angel Question – 09/24/12
Thank you for the response. Wow a year is not a very long time to live.
<All is relative, but I agree>
They shouldn't catch them if that is all they live for in captivity.
<There are several notable species used in the trade that on average (or any measure of central tendency) more than half are dead w/in a week of capture... Hence my and others ongoing efforts to offer useful data...>
I am interested in getting a large angel. Only corals I have in my tank are some leathers. I have lots of live rock and some snails and crabs. Is there an angel fish in particular you would recommend to me that you think would do really well but yet is still pretty looking? Look forward to your reply.
<My fave is a mid-size... the Koran. Please see WWM re Pomacanthid Selection (FAQs). BobF>
Christopher
Re: Regal Angel Question – 09/24/12
Thank you for the response. A Koran Angel wont bother my leathers I take it?
Christopher
<Not likely... please... read. B>
Re: Regal Angel Question – 09/24/12
Thank you for the reply. I will check it out.
<Ah, welcome>
Koran – 09/24/12
I have read thru the article on Koran Angels like you have asked me to.
Very nice pictures of them. Now in your article it does mention Adult Korans do eat corals in the wild. What kinds do they typically eat? I like my few leathers a lot in my aquarium. I have a toadstool and a few devils hands. Would they touch those? Look forward to your reply.
Christopher
<A mix, some times... not often.>
Re: Koran – 09/24/12
Thanks for the reply. How about a Queen Angel or Imperator or French?
Would these species eat my leathers or would you think they would leave them alone? I really am attracted to the colors on the queens. Magnificent colors.
Christopher /> <... Take a guess: Keep reading! B>

Angels, SW, sel. 5/25/12
Hi crew, I'm setting up a new tank which will be around 187 gallons, tank size 60"-30"-24", I've been doing a bit of reading on angels on your site and I was thinking of putting one into my new tank, I've narrowed my options down to 3 that I like, the passer angelfish, the blue ring angelfish and the emperor. My question is would this tank size be able to house any of these angels for their entire life?
<Mmm, not really>
If not could you recommend any other large angelfish that could possibly be placed in this tank?
<The mid-sized Koran, Pomacanthus semicirculatus would be/is my best choice>
Also what would be the minimum tank size you would recommend for a stars and stripes puffer (Arothron hispidus)
<With other fishes? Three hundred gallons plus>
any help would be great.
Steve
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re Angels, SW sel. – 5/26/12
Thanks for the fast reply bob, I live in Belfast and there aren't many places that sell marines,
<Surprising... I hope to visit there this next year>
but my lfs usually has the emperor and a few other angels but haven't seen a Koran in the shop yet but I can always ask for it to ordered in, as I mentioned the new tank I'm getting is 187 US gallons, it's 60 inches long ( 5 feet ) which is the longest tank I have space for, if was to ask for the tank to be made higher maybe up to 225 US gallons, could I maybe add an emperor angel then or is a longer tank better?
<Longer is better>
If not what is the minimum tank size you would even consider housing a large angel?
<For its lifetime... a large Pomacanthus species (all others than the Koran really)... about 300 gallons, eight feet>
Thanks for any advice bob
Steve
<Certainly welcome. BobF>

Angelfish choices 5/4/12
Hi guys how's it going?
I am upgrading to a 187 gallon tank (L 60 H 30 W 24) and I'm thinking of adding an angel or two, I have a few in mind the blue girdled angelfish, blue ring angelfish, passer angelfish and the scribbled angelfish,
<Mmm, I'd do a bit more reading...>
I like the emperor but I here <hear> they can be aggressive, i currently have clowns, dwarf lions,
<May pick on these>
lyre tail Anthias, Chromis, a yellow tang and a stars and stripes puffer
<And this...>
in my current tank and I will be adding these to the new tank so I would just like any advice on the angels I have mentioned above regarding their aggression, general care and there minimum tank size, I've read a lot of different information on each of the angels some of it conflicting, I would just like to get your views on these fish and whether or not I could add 1 possibly 2 of the angels to my new tank
Steve
<... Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FishInd3.htm
Bob Fenner>

Angelfish questions, SW, stkg./sel. 10/29/11
Hi Bob,
Thank you all for giving your time to save us from our mistakes, much appreciated.
<Glad to help others avoid ones I made>
I'm looking for some advice with planning my fish stock, I do not want to be having a rethink once they are in the tank!
I am upgrading to a FOWLR 180 gal. aquarium 5ft x 2.2ft x 2ft, with a sump. I have a Moorish idol which I have had for 4 years and previously kept a regal angel for 3 years ( lost it to a goiter(?) growing in it's throat which I have since read is related to iodine deficiency, my error ).
I love the large angelfish and will be getting another red sea regal. My question is relating to the possibility of adding other angels also, though I know there are drawbacks to this. There is a section on achieving a successful Pomacanthid community tank in Scott Michael's 'angelfishes and Butterflyfishes' page 281, some tanks on ReefCentral and elsewhere of similar size to mine ( though I do wonder about the long term success with some of these ). I am not trying to run a far east system crammed full of fish, high nitrates with background levels of copper or hypo running!
I see the ground rules in summary roughly being:
1. Large tank, I know mine may be to small, shame I don't have a bigger home.
2. Aquascaping, live rock pillars to break up sight lines between angels, plenty of caves / holes for subordinate fish to avoid more dominant ones.
3. Try to avoid similar looking fish, and vary size.
4. Avoid the queen, passer and French angel as they are too aggressive.
5. Feed well, competition for scarce food can only worsen aggression.
6. Order of introduction to tank, perhaps simultaneous introduction ( but don't overload the filtration though!)
7. Use juvenile fish.
<That about covers it>
Apart from the regal angel, the fish I need advice on are from the following list, I am not suggesting adding all of these, I just want to know in my proposed set up, with other angels what there compatibility is likely to be? I am aware as they reach maturity they become more aggressive, it is the level that is key, I don't want a running battle in my tank, the odd grunt or posturing I would consider normal.
1. Emperor angel.
2. Asfur angel.
<Just one or the other of the above. Both get too large for this volume eventually>
3. Rock Beauty ( I think I can get a good specimen from my source here in the UK ) Are these queen angel like in behaviour?
<Not>
4. Blue lined angel (Chaetodontoplus)
5. False Personifer (meredithi?)
I'm not a fan of Genicanthus angels hence they are not on my list.
thanks,
Toby
<Will need more room in time. Bob Fenner>

Would a regal angel be more suitable for my 120? -- 05/30/11
Thanks for getting back to me so soon.
Would a regal angel be more suitable for my 120?
If not I will look into another direction for my final fish.
Thanks again
<Please read on WWM re Pygoplites. B>

Angel Fish and shrimp... SW stkg., reading 5/9/11
Hi there, I just adopted a 180 gallon salt tank with a 55 gallon sump, protein skimmer and uv sterilizer. It comes with about 80lbs of live rock, blue tang a few blennies and a candy striped shrimp. The shrimp is what brings the question. I am going to add, several pygmy angels, a purple tang, two yellow tangs, blonde Naso tang, emperor angel queen angel,
<Mmm, whoa! Just one of these large angel species will fit all the way around, and even the one will need larger quarters in time>
a few carpet anenomies
<No... not compatible... Do please learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM... ahead of writing us>
with clownfish. I have noticed nobody talk about mixing candy striped shrimp or peppermint shrimp in the mix. I was thinking of even a arrow crab.
<Nyet>
My question is will the invertbreas survive or will the bigger fish eat them. I hope this is not a dumb and obvious answer, but nobody seems to have the answer. Thanks, Jim
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
Re: Angel Fish and shrimp 5/10/11
Hi Bob, Thank you for the response and after reading Marine Angelfish Stocking/Selection. I decided I am going to put one large Angel in my tank, with some pygmy angels, blonde Naso tang, with a few ferry <fairy> wrasse.
Now Bob, my wife is not going to let me get a bigger tank. I BEGGED HER AFTER YOUR RESPONSE.
<Heeeee!>
She keeps bringing up these excuses like kids, mortgage, and bills.
<Dang!>
I cant win! So I ask this. I decided to drop the shrimp and crab. I really want to have few anemones maybe coral or two that can handle these angels.
<Best for you to get/practice w/ the fishes first... keep studying... try some hardy Cnidarians... not Actinarians/Anemones here>
Is there anything out there, and what do you recommend?
<That you read... on WWM, elsewhere on the Net, a few good books>
I had a blue face angel for two years and loved it!
<You're to be commended, the subgenus Euxiphipops are not easily kept>
(Then I got a job working for Swift trucking and my wife was too afraid to clean and feed them. So I had to get rid of it) I Always wanted an adult emperor, but I also like the queen angel. What Angel would you recommend and maybe coral.
<All posted on WWM>
May the Fish gods smile upon us all. Sincerely, Jim finally got my tank back Ivy!
<Congrats. BobF>

Angel Compatibility 4/15/11
Hi there! My eyes are burning from reading the 2 pages of info concerning this very question :)
<Only two pages!?>
I have a 210g FOWLR tank with 150 lbs of live rock and the following inhabitants... False Personifer Angel 7", Flagfin Angel 5", Coral Beauty Angel 3", Flagtail Blanquillo 6",
<Not easily kept; you're to be congratulated>
Purple Tang 3", Dog Face Puffer, 5", and Maroon Clown 3". SG-1.019, pH-8.3, Temp-78 degrees, all controlled by a Reefkeeper lite for temp/pH stability.
The tank has been up and running for 1-1/2 yrs. with great success thanks to Bob's great book (my bible)... I've always loved the Blue Line and Annularis Angels. Being that these are of different genus from my current Angels, I'd like to try one of these in my current setup. Which do you recommend (if any) and what size should I be looking for to avoid any substantial aggression with my current stocklist? This would be the last fish introduced by the way...
Thanks so much!
-Jay Keel
<Mmm, I wouldn't add either, or actually any other Pomacanthid to your mix here. What you list will be more than this system/volume can handle safely in time, w/ growth of what you have already, and Angels don't generally mix when introduced at larger sizes. I'd be looking about for siting that 300 gallon system... Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Angel Compatibility 4/15/11
Thanks Bob! Great advise... I meant to say "Angel compatibility 1 and 2" not 2 printed pages ;)
<Ahh>
Following your advise <advice> has helped me immensely in getting this far, so I will not stop now... It's probably best to just not "f***" with it.

Thanks again!
Best Regards,
-Jay
<And you Jay. B>
Jay Keel

Friendly Angel Fish.-- 03/20/11
I am setting up a 190 gallon tank. It will have a large school of green Chromis. I want to purchase a juvenile angel, either a French, Maculosus, Emperor or Passer. Of those listed, which do you think would have that "dog-like" and friendly personality to become the focal point of the aquarium?
<The French, Pomacanthus paru is your only real choice here... the W. Pacific Angels and Red Sea ones get too big for this volume and the Passer is really a cooler water animal>
And what would you suggest for other fish that would add both color and a peaceful temperament to the tank.
<For you to research, read... on WWM... re temperament, distribution...>
Thank you,
Dennis.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Flagfin Angelfish... learning/using WWM... Pomacanthid sel. 2/13/11
I'm thinking of adding an Angelfish to my 120 gal Reef tank. Knowing the risks. What of the following would I have the best chance with? Coral Beauty, Flame, Lemonpeel, or Flagfin?
<Flame, Beauty and last Apolemichthys>
Thanks
Tommy
<Learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM. B>

Large Angel Question (Too much for a 150) -- 11/08/10
Hi again :)
<<Hey Jay>>
Quick question... I'm being told that for large angels you can have 1 or 3 or more.
<<Mmm, not without caveats'¦ Will depend much on species, size of the system, tankmates, et al>>
Right now I have a 4 inch Queen Angel, and a Wantanabei (male) angel. I would LOVE to add a 4-5 inch Koran Angel and was wondering if that would pose a big problem...
<<Probably -- that Queen Angel is not likely to allow the introduction of another large Angel>>
I have a 150G with a few Tangs (Hippo, Vlamingi, and Kole), and the 2 angels, a long nosed hawk and Midas Blenny :)
<<Fishy attitudes aside, this system is not large enough for what you already have, much less for adding another large Angel, with the potential to grow to a foot or more, to the mix. The Queen Angel (to 17"), Vlamingi Tang (to 27"), and even the Hippo Tang (to 12"), should already be in a larger system (300g+) for their long term well being. These are big robust fish that need lots of room to swim and to grow>>
Thanks!
Best Regards,
-Jay
<<Happy to share'¦ EricR>>

Asfur... lg. Pomacanthid comp. period 8/4/10
Hi guys.
<And gals Thai>
I recently bought 2 fish, Asfur and Passer. They are housed in a 375 gallon with a large yellow tang, medium purple tang, coral beauty and a small niger trigger.
Naturally the tang's harassed the crap out of the 2 angels which are both 4-5inches. Day 2 and they all tolerate each other now. Now it's Day 4, the passer is eating everything.
<Ah, good>
The asfur hasn't ate <eaten> since he arrived. He is quite shy when I approach the tank but if I'm far away is out and about quite a lot. Should I be worried about the asfur not eating.
<Not quite yet, no>
I feed Nori, Spectrum 2mm and Ocean Nutrition Angel Formula. I've heard there quite hardy and will eat eventually. I also tried adding Seachem Garlic to the Nori but haven't seen it touch it.
<I'd switch the dry food to Spectrum brand... much more palatable>
I got have about 400 pounds of live rock. It doesn't really pick at it at all.
<As far as you've observed. Does it appear thin?>
Also thinking of adding a French, Queen and Blue Ring into the mix once the asfur starts being normal and moving the niger into another tank
What do you guys think?

Thai Pham

Stocking Question/Dwarf Angel and Other 6/15/10
Hello - Much love and blessings to the WWM Crew-
I browse and search your <sic> sight often - thank you.
<Welcome>
I have read many of the entries/queries re: stocking recommendations, etc.
Seems a lot of us tend to want to "stretch the boundaries" just a bit -
:)
<Heeeee!>
I have a 100 Gal SW tank, well-established (several years). Current fish are only: Pair of Black/White Clowns, 2 yellow clown gobies, Yashia Goby/Pistol Shrimp Pair, and a few LPS corals, coco worm...
My next purchase is a pair of multicolor angels from my not-so-local fish store (6 hour drive but all of the LFS's are terrible). They will quarantine for me for two weeks prior to my purchase, and I will continue the quarantine at home.
So the question is: I will be upgrading to a larger tank (looking at one that is 170 gal on sale, or the not on sale 230 gal option) - in the next 6-12 months. I know that I need to add dwarf angels at the same time if I hope to have them be compatible. Would it be conceivable to add the new dwarf (possibly deep water coral beauty) at the time I upgrade the tank, instead of simultaneously adding with the Multicolor pair?
<Mmm, yes>
i.e. will the environmental shift be enough to allow them to possibly get along?
<Very likely so>
Otherwise, I would need to attempt to add the three simultaneously in the current setup.

Or wait for all into the bigger tank if I have to.
Here is the possibly general stocking plan for the larger tank (comments are welcome).
2 black/white clowns (pair)
2 yellow clown gobies
Yashia goby/pistol shrimp pair
2 multicolor angels (pair)
1 deep water coral beauty
McCoskey's <McCosker's... named after John...> Wrasse
3 Blue-Green Chromis
Blue Spotted Jawfish
<Mmm, really a cooler water animal... I'd skip>
3 Flame Anthias or Bartlett's Anthias
?Chevron Tang
<Okay>
?Red Sea Regal Angel
<Nah... too many Angels>
Thanks in Advance,
Lynn M
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>

Hey everyone.... Passer Angel sel., sys. 2/26/10
<Hello Jason>
I wanted to get a few opinions on the Passer Angel.
<A quite wonderful fish, and hardy as well>
My local pet store has a 4" Passer and I am really interested. I have done thorough research and I see that they are rather aggressive.
<Yes, they can be>
How aggressive and to what other Angel could they be compared?
<Mmm, maybe a Queen although this fish gets much larger>
I have a 100g FOWLR setup with just Butterflies and a Tang. Will this be a suitable home for him temporarily or is he going to destroy my Butterflies?
<No, I'm sorry to say Jason that your tank is far too small for this fish.
It does grow smaller than some of the larger Angels (to about 14 inches max, and less in captivity) but you still need a tank more than twice the size of the one you have now. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PasserAngF.htm>
I have a Raccoon, Heniochus and a Yellow Tang (all at 3" or below). The research states they need large quarters and that they are very aggressive but do you think this could work since my tank is lightly stocked?
<No I don't>
If not, which other angels could you recommend for a 100g in the larger genus (not pygmy/Centropyge).
<None of the Pomacanthus or Holacanthus genus will work here. You might find one of the smaller Genicanthus, Chaetodontoplus or Apolemichthys species that grow to a max of about 6 inches in the wild. Perhaps something
like a Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus, or an Apolemichthys xanthotis, but these fishes really do better in reef set ups. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/apolemichthys/index.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/chaetodonoplus/index.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/genicanthus/>.
Thanks a lot
<No problem, Simon>

26/02/10 Hey everyone....trying to shoehorn large Angels into small tanks... Passer, Pomacanthid sel. f'
<Jason>
Based on what I read within the links you gave, it pretty much states what these fish "should" be housed in.
<Yes>
Basically I was asking if it was possible to house this fish in my 100g and after reading I see that it is.
<Yes. It is also 'possible' to keep an Alsatian in your garage its whole life, but you can pretty much guarantee that it won't be happy or healthy>.
I see your trying to give this animal the largest living space possible
<No, for this I would recommend 500 gallons+, and I believe I stated that you need at a minimum more than double what you have. I would say 250 gallons>.
but based on what I read it can still live in the quarters I have.
<It can stay alive for a while, yes, but it will have a shortened lifespan for sure. Large angels like this can live 30 years. That is what you are taking on with this fish, but it won't go anywhere near that long in your tank. Had you really spent some time 'reading' you would know this. The fish if crowded will be stunted in growth. This is cruel, and you will be guilty of cruelty, especially if you have been warned, which you have.>
Kinda like having a bird in a cage and/or around your house, yes it's used to much larger quarters but it does just fine in the not-so-large quarters it's in (considering you provide a good home, nutrition and exercise).
<This depends on the bird. Obviously a canary would be ok. Do you think an Eagle would be ok in your living room? No, this fish will not 'do fine' it will be stunted. With a large head and small body. And it will die young. Does this sound 'fine' to you? Have you ever seen large angels that have been kept in small tanks like this for several years? With HLLE and deformed spines? No, you obviously have not but I have and I can tell you it is not a pretty sight. Is that what you want in your living room?>
From what I know through my experience, unless severely constricted, most animals will learn to adapt (I am less knowledgeable about fish though lol).
<This IS severely constricted, and no animal can 'adapt' to a smaller body.>
I could see if I was putting a 17" angel in a 55g tank but this is a 100g.
<? You are under the impression that 100 gallons is a large tank. It is not, it is a medium-small tank, and for an animal like this it is tiny, in fact putting an Angelfish like this in a 100 gallon tank is, to be perfectly honest, ludicrous.>
But after all this I see now that the size of it's home is more based on it's temperament rather than overall size.
<No, it is not, you have this backwards. Where have you been reading/ who told you this? The size of it's home is based on its maximum size, and it's nature. These fishes need space to grow, and to roam. It's temperament determines what fish you place with it. Totally different, you do not understand the fishes needs at all. You need to go back to the drawing board here Jason>.
I guess I just wanted to know what type of personal experience you had with this species regarding it's aggression.
<I have never kept this fish personally, but I have seen it in aquariums, and I have kept similar species (Holacanthus). This is an aggressive fish, but that is not the issue. You have been warned, Jason, and I leave it to you and your conscience about what you decide to do>
I'll just do some more research.

Thanks anyway Simon
<No problem>
Re Passer query; sel., Pomacanthids as well 3/1/10
Hi Simon,
<Hi James>
I think you did a good job on the Passer query.
<Thanks! I do think, that in my passion to see these fishes housed properly I do get a bit emotionally carried away sometimes, but I suppose if I have conveyed the correct message then that is the main thing>
In my 30+ years experience, I have always came across folks like this who believe things will be different for them, like they are going to change the physiological process of animals.

You pretty much told it like it was and now it's up to him whether to attempt to defy nature.
<Yes, and even if he does not, then hopefully others might be dissuaded from taking a similar path by reading and learning from proper resources such as WWM>
James
<Simon>

Re: Fish Stocking Question... SW Angel stkg., alg. eater sel.... just using WWM 1/4/10
Thanks for the advice. I have a couple more questions though, would I be able to add any different large angelfish to this setup ,along with the trigger, besides the emperor like the Koran, Passer, Malaculosus, etc or is it too small?
<? See WWM re>
Also would angelfish or anything besides a tang be good be good algae eaters since I need an algae eater to keep it in control.
<Ditto>
My main problem is that tangs are very prone to disease. We have around 10 of them in our class room and almost all of them have HLLE except the ones in our giant reef tanks. Thank You for helping me solve my dilemma! -Alex
<Help yourself, please. BobF>
Re: Fish Stocking Question...
Alex again,
First off I want to say sorry because I might come off sounding like a jerk, which I don't mean any offense you guys, but I did read the forums and was incredible confused by the differing opinions. Like the Malaculosus angelfish, your main page about it suggests 100 gallons or bigger, while some people say that you can't keep it in anything smaller than 180 gallons.
<Even larger... Read my article here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/maculosus.htm>
Also the Passer Angelfish is another one I was confused about because while some people wrote that it was super aggressive, others say that it is great for a FOWLR tank.
<Some types... see my article on this species...>
I do understand in the marine aquarium field that a lot of people have different ideas about fish care and each fish is
individualistic, but when I'm trying to find a fish it makes it very difficult because I don't want a fish to just waste away in my tank or be psychologically damaged.
<... then read qualified input>
Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated! Sorry for any inconvenience! -Alex
<Keep reading... use the search tool where you found to write us, the indices... B>

Angelfish tank, stkg. mostly... comp. f' as well 9/26/09
Hey there Crew. I have a quick and hopefully easy question for you.
There is an article on your website found here...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I3/angelfish/Angelfish.htm
It deals with keeping a large volume of fish in a tank. I've read the disclaimers through the article and know it isn't exactly the ideal setup although it was working for the guy who has the tank. I'm curious if you have any more information on the status of the tank? The article is a couple years old, it looks like to me... do you know if things worked out long term for him?
Grant
<I do not have any further update, info. re status of this one set up, but can tell you that this sort of seemingly over-crowded, largely angel-system is not unique, has been used several times... mainly in the orient, but also a standard in some east coast U.S. service companies... And can indeed be "done". IF ones mechanicals (filtration et al.) and maintenance are up to par, packing such animals together appears to greatly depress territorial expression... Bob Fenner>

Chaetodon and large angel compatibility with mushrooms 8/30/2009
<Ahh, Bruce, friend Steven Pro's wife's maiden name and your family's are the same>
Hi WWM crew,
I've been enjoying your site for some time now, and I appreciate all the help you give to us in the hobby.
I am going from a 125 gallon (5' X 18" X 24" tall), to a 180 gallon, (8' X 18" X 24" tall). This is to be a FOWLR based on the fish that I am choosing and in the sense that I am not specifically setting up a reef
tank. However I do believe that a few sessile inverts really help to add to the aesthetic appeal of a system. Currently I have a Chaetodon miliaris, Centropyge bicolor and bispinosus, and three BG Chromis, along with several Actinodiscus, a Ricordea, two Sarcophyton and a Fungia in my 125. So now to the hard part.
I would like the new tank to contain two or three additional Chaetodon, depending on ultimate size, and one large angel as well as a Naso lituratus. My goal is to find species that will leave the mushrooms alone.
I can always find a home for the Fungia if I need to. I am interested in adding any of the following Chaetodon: falcula, semilarvatus, melannotus, ulietensis, or collare.
<Mmm, amongst Chaetodontids, these are all good choices... the Blue Face gets big... I'd likely choose the Ulietensis>
For the angels, either a Pomacanthus annularis, imperator, or semicirculatus, or a Holocanthus.
<Well... the Koran is my choice here... if this is what you're looking for from me/us>
It's been very difficult finding the few cnidarians that would be unmolested by such a varied group, and being only able to choose a total of three or four fish, I want to make the right choice the first time.
I am thinking that mushrooms seem to be left alone by quite a few otherwise non reef safe fish. So I am considering that maybe we might be able to "create" a new category of tank style. Not FOWLR or reef, but
something in between; that is a non reef safe tank, with a few non palatable cnidarians and crustaceans. Any further suggestions? Thanks!
Bruce
<Can be done! Bob Fenner>

Regal Angel only tank?? Reading 4/19/09
Hi, would it be possible to have a FOWLER with only Regal Angel fishe(S)?
Maybe a 180gal with 5 of them?
<No... won't work>
Would that be over crowding?
<... ridiculous>
Will that leave space for anything else like 5 Anthias?
Is there any Angel species that can be kept in a harem in the 180 gal tank?
Cheers
Ranjith
<Yes... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FishInd3.htm
B>

Re: Damsel color change? Neopomacentrus f', Lg. Angel sel. 2/22/09 Looks like you nailed it!! Thanks! Any different behavior for this species? <Different? This is one of the genera of Damsels that are neither totally solitary/territorial, nor schooling-social... sort of mean, but not totally stand-offish> The one I have is VERY shy and retiring... but I think being overcrowded, including a couple bruisers (the 2 Clarkiis and the 6" jeweled damsel may not have given him much choice. <Agreed> BTW the cleaner (who IS eating well and looking very healthy... thank goodness), the coral beauty and the scopas have successfully made the transition to my 150 gallon. Think they really appreciate the extra room. Unrelated question, in the 150, besides the scopas, false Percs (2), canary wrasse, starry eyed blenny, coral beauty, and cleaner wrasse, was thinking of adding (over time) a threadfin butterfly, a Naso, and a large angel. Initially was looking into King/Passer, but after further consideration and reading, think maybe too large/aggressive for a 150gallon. Any suggestions for a smaller (reasonably priced:) large angel? <Mmm, my best choice here... A Koran, P. semicirculatus. Bob Fenner>

Mike Tyson type of Angel aggression? Searching for a Perfect Angel (Angelfish Selection) - 09/12/08 Hello you all over there, <Hey there! Scott F. in today!> I have a question today about the large Angel fish. I love their coloring and size, but keep reading about the aggressive/semi-aggressive temperament of them as I do my research. I don't want my Lipstick Tang or two butterfly fish to be nipped at or bullied around. The reports I have read suggest that your tank have lots of caves for your smaller fish to hide in because the large Angel genus is also territorial. I am searching for a large Angel, not a dwarf, that is peaceful, about 12" - 15" max, and very colorful with blues, reds, yellows, greens, like the Queen or the Blue. I have read through your FAQ's, and have learned a lot regarding the feeding requirements of Angels. I have a 320 gallon rectangle tank, 8 ft. long. 200 lbs. of live rock, and just the other three fish mentioned above. I have a 40 gal. refugium, and it has been set up since summer, 2007. <Sounds nice!> My specific question about them is regarding that tag of "aggressive". Exactly what does that term mean in relation to these fishes behavior? Aggressive, as in nip at my other fish? Eat them? Chase them around the tank? Mike Tyson on Evander Holyfield's ear aggressive? Or does that label imply that because they are territorial, they would chase away another fish if it swam too close to its "area" in the tank? But otherwise, not harass, or bully the others? <Great question! The answer? All of the above- and more. The tag "aggressive" also means a fish that will harass other fishes when they try to eat. Behavior during feeding is often overlooked when selecting a fish, IMO. Many of these fishes are also aggressive feeders, and will chase other fishes away while eating. This may require that you have two feeding sessions, or that you simply keep a very close eye peeled while feeding.> You all are so knowledgeable over there. I respect your advice given to others. Could you please recommend a peaceful, large 12"-15" blue/green/red/yellow specimen for my docile tank? Is there such a thing? <Well, there are several fishes that fall into that category, I suppose. As far as the colors you're looking for- none of my recommendations are exactly what you're looking for. However, they are spectacular, and reasonably peaceful choices once acclimated. I should tell you at the outset that I am always a bit hesitant to recommend fishes that hit 12"-15" in size. Fishes like the Emperor Angel achieve this length, and require absolutely huge amounts of space. In nature, studies have suggested that they roam over areas the size of a US Football field (100 yards long). You simply cannot provide this type of space in captivity. A compromise is required. I'd be inclined to recommend a member of the genus Chaetodontoplus, such as C. caeruleopunctatus, which reaches a much more manageable 6 inches, is not aggressive, and has a subtle beauty. If you want to spend the BIG $$$ on a medium sized angel, you'd be hard-pressed to find a nicer fish than C. conspicillatus, in my opinion. They can be challenging to keep, difficult to acquire, but are among the most beautiful and personable of the group once they adapt to captive life. They top off around 10" in length. My other large angelfish recommendation is the Majestic Angelfish, Pomacanthus navarchus. Another fish that can have a bit of a tougher time adapting to captivity, this is a spectacular one, topping out around 10". Once it acclimates, it's a showpiece. It can actually be a bit shy, so take this into account.> Thank you so much for your help. I have done much reading on these creatures, but just can't seem to find this answer. Martha <Well, Martha, I hope these selections give you some further research material. You should still consider my favorite genus, Centropyge- Dwarf angelfishes, or the mid-sized Genicanthus genus. These are also beautiful, interesting fishes that may be a better size fit for captive care. They vary widely in terms of ease of care and aggressiveness, but are worthy of consideration. Best of luck! Regards, Scott F.>

What Large Angels will my system support (UNCLASSIFIED) 7/25/08 I have a tank with dimensions 48*24*30 150 gallons, and I would like to have one large angelfish in this setup could your staff recommend me a couple of choices that would work for this system for the lifespan of the fish <... Stop stealing... and Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/fishindex3.htm Bob Fenner>

Choosing A Large Marine Angel…Some Need Really Large Quarters - 06/06/08 I have a salt water aquarium that is 72" long, 20" high and 30" wide, about 187gallons. The aquarium presently houses a marine Betta, dwarf fuzzy lion and flame hawk. I am going to add an Australian harlequin tusk wrasse and a juvenile angel, either French or Yellow Map, in early July of this year. <> My question: what suggestion do you have as to the number of other fish that I could add to the aquarium and what fish would you suggest. Or do you think that I should leave it as is. <> Thank you, Dennis <<Happy to assist. EricR>>

New 750 gallon aquarium, stkg SW 4/27/08 hello bob.....i am so happy to see that many of you try to help people that you don't even know... i love your website and i need some answer from you please... my tank is currently cycling and in 2-3 weeks it will be ready for my first few fish.. i just want to ask you the compatibility of these fish... 1) Annularis angel 5-6 in 2) Blue face angel 5-6 in 3) Koran angel 7-8 in 4) Majestic angel 5-6 in 5) French angel 7-8 in 6) Cream angelfish 3-4 in 7) Asfur angel 5-6 in 8) Queen angel 5.5-6.5 in 9) Emperor angel 5-6 in <I'd start all these Angels at the 3-4 inch length to start... much more likely to be healthy, get along> 10) 3 Heniochus butterfly 3-4 in 11) 2 falcula butterfly 3-4 in 12) 4 pacific blue tang 2.5-3.5 in 13) desjardinii Sailfin tang 4-5 in 14) Naso tang 5-6 in 15) powder blue tang 3-4 in 16) 2 Scopas tang 3-4 in 17) 2 purple tang 3-4 in 18) 2 yellow tang 3-4 in 19) magnificent foxface4.5-5.5 in 20) blue throat trigger 3.5-4.5 in 21) Humu Humu trigger 3-4 in 22) black trigger 3-4 in 23) niger trigger 3-4 in 24) rectangle trigger 3.5-4.5 in 25)2 tomato clownfish 2-3 in 26) 2 Pakistani Butterflyfish 2-3 in 27) 2 auriga butterfly 2-3 in 28) 6 cleaner wrasse 1-2 in <Either skip these or just two> please tell me your opinion and if you think i shouldn't add some fish.....i really appreciate your opinion...i know cleaner wrasse are hard but someone told me that they very important and with a fish population this big. they'll have a lot of food.. <All should be carefully acclimated, quarantined (per WWM) before introducing. Bob Fenner>

Passer Angel... Sys. 3/14/08 Hello Bob I'm looking at getting a smaller of one of the larger angels, and have been reading alot <... no such word> on the Passer/King Angelfish. In one of your articles you had stated they should max out at around 9", but I have read 9", 10", 12" and 14". Could you point me in the right direction for the passer's max size in a aquarium. <... really mainly depends on the size of the system... the nine inch is a good general maximum length for almost all hobby sizes...> I have a 125 gallon, <Won't get even this size here> will a 4" to 5" through adult size passer be ok with blood shrimp, boxer shrimp, cleaner crabs and snails, <May eat any/all...> 1.5" neon goby, 3" p. clown, 4" yellow tang and a 3" regal tang? If not would one of these be a better angel for my system, and are these max sizes right? Annularis (max 8")Queensland Yellow Tail ( max 10") Black Velvet (max 8") <None of these Pacific Angels is really suitable for a 125 gallon volume> Also I would like to get a dwarf angel, maybe a flame, can you mix dwarfs and large angels? Thanks a lot Todd <See WWM re... BobF>

Re: Passer Angel... Large angels, sel., need to proof writing... for grammar, clarity - 03/18/08 How's it going Bob I didn't realize a passer angel was such a bruiser, with more reading I have realized that. <... run on...> It sounds like a asfur angel or a emperor angel would be ok with my shrimp, crabs and some of the smaller fish, they sound a little more peaceful (or at least not as aggressive). Do you agree? <With what? Relative compatibility? Not really> Would a queen angel be ok with shrimp, crabs and smaller fish, I've heard good and bad about the queen's, What's your opinion? <... posted> You stated that a passer angel will not even get 8" in a 125 gallon, I thought angels would out grow their tank if it was not big enough, and that was the point off getting a big enough tank or a small enough (growing to max size adult) angel, to start with. <...? What? To provide adequate living space, expression (age...), health...> That's why I was looking for one of the smaller, bigger angels. The asfur angel and emperor angel get about 15" to 17" max size, and the asfur angel will max out at about 8" to 9" in captivity, Will the emperor angel max out at 8" to 9" also in captivity? <Often> I though a 72"X18"X20" aquarium would be plenty big enough for a 8" to 9" angel, <Not really> I know they need room to swim, but that seems like enough for that size angel, I can see that size not being big enough for a 15" to 17" angel, but i figured it was plenty for a 8" to 9" angel. What size do you suggest for a 8" to 9" angel? <... For what? Size system? Eight feet long or larger, 2-3 hundred gallons> In a previous email on cleaner shrimp and gobies you stated that (they don't eat the encrusted stage of Ich lying on the sand and rocks, or at least reliably, and the other two stages can't be seen). So how do they help control Ich then, if they can't see two of the stages and the third one they barely feed on? <Ahh! Posted also... Control, not cure... mostly (apparently) by making the host fishes feel better> I have seen them cleaning fish lots of times, I always thought they were picking the parasites off? <Nope. RMF>

Re: Passer Angel, responding to folks who don't have the common courtesy to follow simple instructions... go someplace else - 3/18/08 Bob <Todd> I know a lot of that stuff is posted, I just don't understand all of it, which is why I'm writing you about the stuff. And I'll be the first one to tell you my grammar isn't the best, but I try my best for you. Don't you enjoy talking about this stuff???? Seems like you just want to use your expertise to be a jerk to the inexperienced!!! You were a teacher right? When your students didn't understand the material and asked questions, did you just tell them its posted? It's obvious you care more about belittling me and other fish hobbyists about our grammar and what we don't understand, then to give us a hand and help us out. I've always been very nice to you in my emails and it's ridiculous the way you act towards me in your replies (considering how much you say you love the hobby). One of my hobbies is racing and sports cars. I couldn't imagine acting like you do towards somebody that was asking a question about something that was one of my favorite things in life. I would love to help them, no matter how bad their grammar and how stupid the question. Seems your only nice to the knowledgeable one's with good grammar. <Thank you. Go elsewhere. B>

Time to setup a new tank, but with some stocking questions related to large Marine Angels. Many different opinions out there. Big Aquarium- Big Fish? 3/12/08 Hey Crew, <Hey there! Scott F. in today!> I had to take down my tank about a year ago and sell it, due to the real world getting in the way of my hobbies. <How does THAT happen? LOL> Now, I have a brand new 125G (72"L x 18"W) tank, about 165 pounds of live rock, 140 pounds of live sand and a bunch of different ideas for stocking! <Nice position to be in!> I have been reading WWM a lot as well as a few other sites. I hear and read a lot of differing opinions and have heard many different stories from friends to guy next to me at the LFS. I know that Bob and Scott Michael tend to vary a bit in their writings on minimum tank sizes for certain species. Maybe my answer will be in the middle. <Perhaps both Bob and Scott would tell you that they are offering suggestions for each species, and that these are based on their experiences and judgments. Like so many things in the hobby, this can vary.> The main issue that I have is that you guys say my tank is too small for a large marine angel. Others say I should be ok. Let's say the Queen or Emperor Angel I buy (just an example) does reach 18" long, so wouldn't a 215G be too small as well? It's only another 6" in terms of width. I would think that the fish would still be cramped. I hope I am not coming off as rude or argumentative, just seeking an unbiased answer. You guys write to people with the fishes' best interest and not of the aquarist or LFS. I can appreciate that, and that is why I am writing you. <I agree with you. I am pretty conservative in my stocking philosophy, and I would not even think of keeping a full-sized angel in any aquarium less than 8 feet in length. To be quite honest, I am not a fan of keeping these fishes at all, which is certainly against the grain of many of my peers. Many of these fishes range over huge tracts of reef in nature, and really deserve to live their lives in extremely large surroundings. Anything else is like you or having to be confined to our living rooms for the rest of our lives: Survivable, but intolerable over time.> I am still in the planning stage and trying to look ahead to any problems. I had a juv. Emperor for about a year and a half before he ended up dying. I just didn't have the time to take care of him or the tank properly and he suffered for it. I ended up having to euthanize him. I gave my other fishes away to a friend. It sucks, but it happens. I have to say that he really was an endearing fish and that I would really like to try again. In this sized tank, just how long would one last (assuming everything goes well and he does well in captivity) starting from a 2-3" juv. specimen? If it is a few years, then I will go for it. <I really don't think it would be that long. Maybe a year or two, if that. Although these fishes do not grow super fast, they can grow quicker than we might like, and do need correspondingly large quarters as they grow. I do not subscribe to the theory that "they will grow to the size of their aquariums."> Or, are there really any large angels that would be ok in that system for the long haul? Some say an Emperor can last for the long haul, some disagree. <Last, sure. Thrive? It depends, really, on what your definition of "thriving" is. I am probably a bit too biased, but I'm skeptical of their long-term viability in anything less than aquariums of hundreds of gallons of volume.> I am also considering a Blue Angel (H. bermudensis) or a Blue-Ringed Angel (P. Annularis). Or would it be different species, same problem? Maybe I would be better with just 2 dwarf angels. I am not looking more than a few years into the future regarding keeping the fishes as I have learned a lot can happen before you know it and keeping fishes may not fit into your life. We all plan/hope for the best when starting out new endeavors, but I know it doesn't always work out that way. <Absolutely. I'm glad you feel this way.> But at the same time, I believe if someone is to do something, then he/she should do it right or at least to the best of his/her abilities. Who knows, I could have the means (and space) to get a 1,000G system in a few years. If it turns out the fish outgrows the tank, I will act in the best interest of the fish. I will either donate it, trade it or upgrade to a bigger tank. I will cross that bridge when/if I get there. <Yes...and best not to assume that you will have such a system available in the future.> I would really like to try my hand again at an Achilles Tang, but maybe that one is just better left in the ocean. The last one I had I thought would be the 1 out of 10 that would make it. Seemed well adjusted socially/mentally and readily accepted food, put my Blue Hippo to shame as far as wolfing down food goes... Bob and I exchanged a few emails and he suggested Spectrum. The fish just turned his nose at it. Every fish has its own taste I guess. Everything seemed to be going great and one day I go to turn the light on and the fish is as dead as dead can be. From what I have been reading the last few months, I am not alone in this experience. I guess that is what "just not well suited for captivity" means. <Perhaps!> It seems that the Gold Rim Tang (A. Nigricans) is a better choice. But how much better is it really? I also read that it really isn't much easier than the Achilles Tang. Am I going from "darn near impossible" to "likely impossible" with the Gold Rim? Some say the Gold Rim is under the "moderate" level of care. I don't know why, but those two just appeal to me more than any other. <I'd be doing a disservice to you if I said it was an easy fish to keep. However, it is not impossible. Many criteria come into play when considering keeping such a fish (i.e.; the source, handling, etc. of the fish before it arrives at your LFS).> Basically what I am looking at is this: (all of them would be considered small/juv. {2-3" when purchased}) One large angel (in juv. form of the variety listed above, although most likely Emperor) One Flame Angel One Blue Hippo Tang A pair of clowns (either Maroon or Percula) Maybe one Achilles or Gold Rim Maybe a Butterfly (I wish the Ornate was on the good list) I don't think that sounds overstocked, what do you guys think? Any thoughts or opinions are welcome even if not what I want to hear. <Well, you asked. To be honest, I believe that this is too much bioload for this system. You really need to pare down the stocking list to only one of the two larger Tangs (either the Hippo or the Gold Rim).> Trust me; I don't want to be that guy who stuffed 25+ angels into a 250G tank. That article was insane. <Yep!> Best Wishes to you all, Jeremy <Well, Jeremy, I think you hit it on the head. Responsible stocking involves taking into account a multitude of factors, many of which you have already addressed. Go with your gut feelings and your fish will benefit! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>
Re: Time to setup a new tank, but with some stocking questions related to large Marine Angels. Many different opinions out there -03/17/08Hi Scott F.! My replies will be in double carrots. Hey Crew, <Hey there! Scott F. in today!> I had to take down my tank about a year ago and sell it, due to the real world getting in the way of my hobbies. <How does THAT happen? LOL> Now, I have a brand new 125G (72"L x 18"W) tank, about 165 pounds of live rock, 140 pounds of live sand and a bunch of different ideas for stocking! <Nice position to be in!> <<Well, it was by design... ;) I originally bought it for the Emperor Angel that I had. I have had a bunch of aquarium stuff sitting in the garage for about 16 months now. Now I get to re-cure most my live rock again because I just checked it and it doesn't look too well. At least the dead matter should be of use as an ammonia source to start the cycle. Out of sight, out of mind I guess. A big oops on that one... I will let it cycle naturally on its own anyway for at least 2 months. In addition to that, wouldn't it help any parasites (namely crypt) die off on their own before any livestock is introduced? BioSpira is some good stuff, but I am more of a naturalist. Then again, why not do both?>> I have been reading WWM a lot as well as a few other sites. I hear and read a lot of differing opinions and have heard many different stories from friends to guy next to me at the LFS. I know that Bob and Scott Michael tend to vary a bit in their writings on minimum tank sizes for certain species. Maybe my answer will be in the middle. <Perhaps both Bob and Scott would tell you that they are offering suggestions for each species, and that these are based on their experiences and judgments. Like so many things in the hobby, this can vary.> <<I was just using Bob and Scott as examples, but you got the idea. That and their opinions are so varied. Bob says Emperors will outgrow 215G tanks and Scott (and Live Aquaria) says that 100-125G is the minimum tank size or something to that effect. That is a lot of variation. I am not accusing anyone of being "wrong;" it just creates a lot of confusion.>> The main issue that I have is that you guys say my tank is too small for a large marine angel. Others say I should be ok. Let's say the Queen or Emperor Angel I buy (just an example) does reach 18" long, so wouldn't a 215G be too small as well? It's only another 6" in terms of width. I would think that the fish would still be cramped. I hope I am not coming off as rude or argumentative, just seeking an unbiased answer. You guys write to people with the fishes' best interest and not of the aquarist or LFS. I can appreciate that, and that is why I am writing you. <I agree with you. I am pretty conservative in my stocking philosophy, and I would not even think of keeping a full-sized angel in any aquarium less than 8 feet in length. To be quite honest, I am not a fan of keeping these fishes at all, which is certainly against the grain of many of my peers. Many of these fishes range over huge tracts of reef in nature, and really deserve to live their lives in extremely large surroundings. Anything else is like you or having to be confined to our living rooms for the rest of our lives: Survivable, but intolerable over time.> <<That's pretty much how I look at it as well. The biggest problem that I have is me here. If it wasn't for Angels and Tangs/Surgeonfishes, I wouldn't bother to have an aquarium in the first place. Fresh water systems have never interested me. Not that I have any prejudice against them, I just see it as a common thing and somewhat boring because of that. I am not saying I am right to feel this way, but the fact is that I do. No offense meant. FWIW, I actually volunteer for a public park here in Houston and I take care of their aquariums when my schedule permits. Each tank symbolizes a part of the pond (Surface, bottom, mid-zone, etc.). I do it to give back, but it really hasn't changed my opinion of freshwater systems.>> I am still in the planning stage and trying to look ahead to any problems. I had a juv. Emperor for about a year and a half before he ended up dying. I just didn't have the time to take care of him or the tank properly and he suffered for it. I ended up having to euthanize him. I gave my other fishes away to a friend. It sucks, but it happens. I have to say that he really was an endearing fish and that I would really like to try again. In this sized tank, just how long would one last (assuming everything goes well and he does well in captivity) starting from a 2-3" juv. specimen? If it is a few years, then I will go for it. <I really don't think it would be that long. Maybe a year or two, if that. Although these fishes do not grow super fast, they can grow quicker than we might like, and do need correspondingly large quarters as they grow. I do not subscribe to the theory that "they will grow to the size of their aquariums."> <<If a year or two is what I am looking at, I think I will go for it.>> Or, are there really any large angels that would be ok in that system for the long haul? Some say an Emperor can last for the long haul, some disagree. <Last, sure. Thrive? It depends, really, on what your definition of "thriving" is. I am probably a bit too biased, but I'm skeptical of their long-term viability in anything less than aquariums of hundreds of gallons of volume.> <<"Last" wasn't the best choice of words as you pointed out. I guess what I was going for would be more to succeed in keeping the fish healthy and disease free. At least as far as keeping captive fishes go anyway. I don't know how anyone or anything could truly thrive in captivity.>> I am also considering a Blue Angel (H. bermudensis) or a Blue-Ringed Angel (P. Annularis). Or would it be different species, same problem? Maybe I would be better with just 2 dwarf angels. I am not looking more than a few years into the future regarding keeping the fishes as I have learned a lot can happen before you know it and keeping fishes may not fit into your life. We all plan/hope for the best when starting out new endeavors, but I know it doesn't always work out that way. <Absolutely. I'm glad you feel this way.> <<16 months is a long time to have a bunch of stuff in the garage... LOL>> But at the same time, I believe if someone is to do something, then he/she should do it right or at least to the best of his/her abilities. Who knows, I could have the means (and space) to get a 1,000G system in a few years. If it turns out the fish outgrows the tank, I will act in the best interest of the fish. I will either donate it, trade it or upgrade to a bigger tank. I will cross that bridge when/if I get there. <Yes...and best not to assume that you will have such a system available in the future.> <> I would really like to try my hand again at an Achilles Tang, but maybe that one is just better left in the ocean. The last one I had I thought would be the 1 out of 10 that would make it. Seemed well adjusted socially/mentally and readily accepted food, put my Blue Hippo to shame as far as wolfing down food goes... Bob and I exchanged a few emails and he suggested Spectrum. The fish just turned his nose at it. Every fish has its own taste I guess. Everything seemed to be going great and one day I go to turn the light on and the fish is as dead as dead can be. From what I have been reading the last few months, I am not alone in this experience. I guess that is what "just not well suited for captivity" means. <Perhaps!> It seems that the Gold Rim Tang (A. Nigricans) is a better choice. But how much better is it really? I also read that it really isn't much easier than the Achilles Tang. Am I going from "darn near impossible" to "likely impossible" with the Gold Rim? Some say the Gold Rim is under the "moderate" level of care. I don't know why, but those two just appeal to me more than any other. <I'd be doing a disservice to you if I said it was an easy fish to keep. However, it is not impossible. Many criteria come into play when considering keeping such a fish (i.e.; the source, handling, etc. of the fish before it arrives at your LFS).> <<I have another question/issue here. I don't like to put people on the spot on a public page, but Live Aquaria advertises that they quarantine and house certain difficult species in their own facility before they offer them for sale. Assuming this is true, this seems like the odds are more tipped in favor of the aquarist here instead of going the usual LFS route. Obviously, we should still put the fish in our own QT when arriving, but it would seem like the fishes would be more suited/adjusted to captivity this way and not still going through the shock/stress of the transport from ocean to LFS. Any thoughts?>> <More suited to captivity, perhaps. Of course, there are still issues related to the shipping and handling of the animals before they reach you. You hit it on the head when you suggest the need to quarantine regardless. And yes-Live Aquaria has a terrific reputation for quality and selection. I would not hesitate to order from them.> Basically what I am looking at is this: (all of them would be considered small/juv. {2-3" when purchased}) One large angel (in juv. form of the variety listed above, although most likely Emperor) One Flame Angel One Blue Hippo Tang A pair of clowns (either Maroon or Percula) Maybe one Achilles or Gold Rim Maybe a Butterfly (I wish the Ornate was on the good list) I don't think that sounds overstocked, what do you guys think? Any thoughts or opinions are welcome even if not what I want to hear. <Well, you asked. To be honest, I believe that this is too much bioload for this system. You really need to pare down the stocking list to only one of the two larger Tangs (either the Hippo or the Gold Rim).> <<Fair enough. I do know that Tangs are hard on the bio-filter. Honestly, I think my filtration setup should be able to handle it. It looks like more reading in order here.>> <You sound like a very conscientious aquarist. I have no doubts that you will enjoy much success!> Trust me; I don't want to be that guy who stuffed 25+ angels into a 250G tank. That article was insane. <Yep!> Best Wishes to you all, Jeremy <Well, Jeremy, I think you hit it on the head. Responsible stocking involves taking into account a multitude of factors, many of which you have already addressed. Go with your gut feelings and your fish will benefit! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> <<Thanks for your time and candor Scott. I still have a lot of reading to do. No decisions just yet, with the exception of trying a large angel.>> <Enjoy the journey, and feel free to drop us a line again any time. Scott F.>

Can I Add An Angelfish? 1/19/08 Hello again, Crew. Thanks as always for the great advice. I'm looking to add a "showpiece" fish to my existing fish-only tank (250g, no live rock). The tank has been up and running for about 3 years. Current stock are a Sailfin Tang, Porcupine Puffer, Squirrelfish, blue jaw Trigger, Dog Face Puffer and a male/female pair of Bird Wrasses. I make weekly water changes and keep the water quality good. Everyday, I feed frozen krill, silversides, and a cube of thawed Mysis or brine shrimp, all soaked in Selcon. I also hand-feed the Sailfin Tang a big pinch of Spirulina (which is also enjoyed by the wrasses and the trigger). I'm considering adding an Angelfish to the group. My research on heartiness and compatibility has narrowed the choices down to a Koran, French or Queen Angelfish. <All good choices> I'd appreciate your advice on whether these species are likely to be successful in my tank and if so, whether one of these three is a better choice in this situation. Would you recommend a different species? <Mmm, not necessarily> If I add an Angelfish, should I put a piece of live rock into the tank from time to time as an extra source of grazing food for the Angelfish and the Sailfin Tang? <I would definitely add a "box" or two of re-cured (by yourself, outside the system) live rock here... for several good reasons... And am inclined toward the Koran (would be my first choice, staying smaller) or French over the Queen (may become too dominant)...> Thank you very much. Michael <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis in a captive reef? Gambling With Corals (Risking A Large Angelfish With Invertebrates)? 1/16/08 Hey guys and gals: <Scott F. your guy tonight!> Simple question. Is Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis an angel that can be placed in a captive reef aquarium (90G) without being too destructive? < I guess it's all relative..."Destructive" to some reef people is the loss of one polyp of coral. Yes- fishes in this genus will nip at all sorts of sessile invertebrates. It's rather uncommon in the U.S. trade, seeing how it has a rather limited distribution (mainly Southeast Asia and Japan). If you have a source and are up to keeping this beautiful fish, the risk may be worth it! My main concern is the size of the fish. This species can and will hit around 10 inches, and a 90 gallon aquarium is simply not large enough to house this species for anything close to a normal life span, IMO. You really will need an aquarium that is six feet or greater in length (preferably 8 feet), as they roam over large areas of reef in nature, and they do like caves and crevices to hide in.> I have a few LPS corals and a few softies (no SPS) and I'm willing to tempt fate on one of my favorite fish of all time if it could possibly be kept without tearing everything up. <A total dice roll, my friend!> If the fish is well-fed enough (3 times daily with New Life Spectrum pellets along with frozen foods -- all soaked in Selcon), could it be somewhat trusted not to be a holy terror to corals? I was thinking about keeping a clam, but I wouldn't trust a large angel with a clam since I've seen first hand one getting nibbled to death in the past and I'd much rather have a huge want of mine in the septentrionalis if at all possible. <Again- there is no guarantee. Even fishes with a "reputation" for NOT munching on corals can turn on them. Like people, fish are individuals, and we cannot expect them to conform to our behavioral expectations.> It's either that, or I was thinking of going with a Pomacanthus annularis which is my distant 2nd choice (but another gorgeous fish to say the least) which I've read in the FAQ's is one of the 3 large marine angels Bob would tempt fate with in a reef environment.- Jon <Well, Jon, I have seen the P. annularis in reef systems. Again, it's a gamble, but it's up to the hobbyist to decide his/her threshold. A more pressing concern is the HUGE size that this fish can attain (like 15 to 18 inches), and its need for correspondingly huge quarters! Keeping one of these fish in anything less than an aquarium of hundreds of gallons is cruel and unusual, in my opinion. My advice to you, my risk-taking friend: Try fishes better suited to the quarters that you can provide, such as a rare Centropyge species (try pricing a C. hotumatua or C. joculator if you want sexy and expensive!), which are just as challenging (and potentially destructive to reef invertebrates), but generally max out at 4 inches or less. Regardless of what route you take, there are tradeoffs that you must make, so be prepared and go for it based on what is best for you and your animals. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> Jonathan Philpot

Re: Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis in a captive reef? Big Angels- Little Angels! 1/17/08 Thanks for the quick response, Scott. <MY pleasure! Didn't want to be a "buzz kill", but I just felt that I needed to highlight a few things.> Question in regards to P. annularis -- on the WWM site it's listed as a max-out of 8 inches or so in captivity and I must say that I've never seen one anywhere near the size you gave me (the 15-18 inches). The two older specimens I've seen (one around 6 or so years old in the LFS display tank of around 600 gallons and another in a 125 gallon tank belonging to a friend of mine) have both been roughly the 8 inches listed from what I've been able to tell. <I must be honest with you- I have seen at least 3 specimens of this species well over 12 inches, and one that was darned close to a foot and a half. I'm going to render advice based on what I have seen. Sure, they may not all reach that size, but the potential does exist...And you can't ignore that, IMO.> But I've seen the fish listed anywhere from 8 inches to 12 inches and now you mention possibly a foot and a half as well. A bit confusing (and trust me, I'm not doubting you -- just confused by my own witness of the fish and by the multitude of length listings out there in both print and online). I've also seen so many different tank size suggestions which really makes it a bit frustrating since I've had the possibility to attain a few nice specimens at a reasonable price but passed because I've been so confused! <I totally agree! It is confusing. I can only speak from my experiences/observations. They can and do get quite large. Always take any advice you find-mine or anyone else's-with a grain of salt. In the end, you need to gather your information for yourself, from sources you know and from personal observations, and temper your decision with a healthy dose of skepticism. In the end, go with what your observations tell you. However, always think of the "end game" with large fishes. They need such large quarters to live healthy, happy lives.> I'll probably pass on both large angels until I can make a move to a larger aquarium in the future and stick with the Centropyge angels that I've had success with in the past. I do a lot of "trading" of fish with a few fellow aquarists I know and trust so I've had quite a few species of fish over the years and have kept my tanks pretty varied. <Cool!> Thanks for the response, again, though. I'll likely give the Centropyge potteri another go since I did have success in my first go-around until my tank crashed in a very rare power outage. Though I'd love to find the blue/black variant of it since it is a truly magnificent coloration in my opinion (not that the normal coloration isn't magnificent). - Jon

Angel fish for the aquarium 01/06/2008 <<Hello Jody, Andrew here>> After being in the fish hobby for more than five years (and learning many hard lessons) my parents have given me for Christmas your great book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist--(which I asked for) albeit the older version from 1998 <<still a great book>> (the new one retails for over $150). <Good gosh... wait, the new edition hasn't been release as yet. RMF> From the info in that book and wet web media I have not concluded if I have the means (space) for any type of angel fish. I have always been afraid to attempt keeping an angel because of their high price and reputed difficulty in keeping. What do you think? <<Angel fish do require a little aquarium experience before adding>> I have a 60 gallon FOWLER:1 med Porcupine puffer <<this will outgrow your current tank, recommend 90+ gallons>> , 1 med Lunare wrasse who is fairly nice, 1 med Foxface Lo, 1 med Fuzzy dwarf lionfish and 1 med common clownfish. <> I have read recently that Flame angels and Coral beauties are difficult in non-reef tanks. I realize you probably get hundreds of E-mails a day so any response would be greatly appreciated. <<Questions are always good, as this says that your conscious about your aquarium>> Thanks, Jody Goens <<Thank you for the questions, regards, A Nixon>>

Adult passer angelfish, shipping trauma. 12/15/2007 <Very common... specimens more than about 4" total length don't "ship well"> I recently received a large adult passer angelfish from a mail order fish store which shall remain nameless since they have been nice about this. The fish arrived in terrible condition, dazed and confused and in ~65 degree water that was loaded with waste. I've had it in my 175 gallon tank for a day now and not surprisingly it won't eat and it is very sluggish though mobile, taking laps around the tank occasionally. <The last behavior leads me to have hope...> I wonder if any of you know what types of stress tropical marine fish can take and what the prognosis for such a fish is and what I can do to maximize chances of keeping it alive and even better acting like the bold, curious fish it is supposed to be. It really is very sad seeing such a beautiful fish like this fall apart. Thanks, Omar. <I'd keep the lights off to low... if you have to for other livestock... and not be overly concerned if the fish doesn't feed, do much of anything for a few days. Again, the swimming about behavior is a good sign. Bob Fenner, who did collect this and other "key" (i.e. expensive) species al sur off and on for decades.>

Compatibility question, SW angel comp. Hello WWM crew. I most first say I love your site and have been reading for some time now, but have never asked a question. I know this a common question/interest of many salt water hobbyist, but have gotten some conflicting information and would like to get a specific answers to my setup. I have a 250 gallon setup well maintained (by me) w/all proper filtration a plenty of hiding places (big hiding places and small). Also it is lightly stocked w/ no angels. I would like to add a queen angel and a emperor angel. I'm thinking I would get the queen first at a small medium size letting him get well? settled in then purchasing the emperor larger then the queen.? Do you think this could work? Is there a better way to introducing both these fish? or Should this? not be attempted at all??? Thank you in advance Peter. <Is a possibility... I'll give you even odds here that these disparate species will get along... This would not be my choice of angels to mix... Better to seek out species whose geographic range overlaps, that have a natural pecking order/dominance. Bob Fenner>

Large Angelfish et. al sel. and crowding - 10/30/2007 I have a 375 gallon tank and would like to keep multiple angelfish. I understand that large tanks and good water quality are a requirement in keeping these fish successfully. I would like to know if my tank size is big enough to house multiple angelfish. <It is... in fact, better to purposely overcrowd Pomacanthids in such a system... Have seen this done on many occasions... One large East coast service company built their business on such stocking> The only fish that is housed in my tank is a gold spotted Rabbitfish who is doing well, but tends to be on the shy side. <Is their nature> The current list I am developing consists of the following fish: Golden Butterfly <A schooling species... I'd have more than one> Scribbled angelfish Majestic angelfish Emperor angelfish Flame angelfish Flameback or Cherub angelfish Blonde Naso Tang Is this a realistic list? If not, what would fish would you drop? <Could be done... the Majestic you'll want to especially be sure is healthy, feeding> I assume the emperor angel and Naso tang are the last fish to be added due to their bully nature (?) <Yes, this would be my choice as well> Appreciate any suggestions you may have. Thanks <Should be a nice display Kirk. Bob Fenner>

Re: Large Angelfish et.al sel. Bob, <Kirk> After doing some more research and readings from you (WetWebMedia and Conscientious Marine Aquarist book), I am thinking about adding a Queen angelfish to the list of angels. Does this angel fit into my existing angel list (majestic, scribbled, emperor, flame, and cherub) I plan on keeping? <Could, yes> Or is this pushing it? <Well, the smaller, last two species, may have a tough time of getting enough food here... but the crowding will likely be fine> If it is possible, should this be placed in the tank before or after the majestic? On a separate note, I have placed a order for a pair of Golden butterflies from a LFS. It may be till the end of the month until another Red Sea order comes in. Thanks for your advice. Kirk <Welcome. BobF>

Re: Large Angelfish et.al Bob, <That gentleman named Kirk> Wow. I would have never thought the Queen was more aggressive than the Emperor. <On average, very> Should I request a certain region that the Queen come from? Or is the Atlantic the only place that it is collected. <... only is found in the TWA...> I am glad I sent a reply to you. Thank you. <Welcome> After 10yrs in the hobby I still learn something new; This is why I love this hobby so much. Kirk <Even longer stint, and I feel the same. Cheers, BobF>

Chrysurus Angel Sick, sel. - 10/18/07 Hi Crew I need help again please. I bought chrysurus angel about a month ago. He's been great eating well chasing my clown here and there and what have you. The last week his side fins are turning white cloudy and inflamed at the base <Not good> and now he's hiding alot. <No such word> I don't see any signs of Ich or velvet. He did eat 5 minutes ago. He's a big fish 8 inches <Too large to start... a big part of the issue here...> in a 220 gallon tank with few tankmates. 1 clown and a damsel and a Coris wrasse. They all have no interest in him. I paid a lot of money for him and it is my dream fish. Was hard to find. Am not sure how to treat and was going to let it run its course but seems a little worse everyday. He does rub on the rocks here and there and also another thing he has like seizures? Like twitching. His body looks good otherwise. I have done searches on your site and have read the angel section but cant quit find what's wrong. Any help or thoughts would be so much appreciated. Thanks In Advance. <Do you know the origin (country) of this fish? As stated, for the genus and species, this specimen should have been left in the ocean... too difficult to ship, adapt at this age, size... What you are seeing is likely "just" resultant from capture, handling... Hopefully this fish will recover on its own here. No treatment is advised but good care. Bob Fenner>

Re: chrysurus Angel Sick 10/19/07 Thanks for the fast response. I'm not sure of the area he was collected from but I thought they only came from off the Kenya coast? He is gorgeous otherwise. He was at the fish store for about 2 months and I guess nobody wanted to spend 160.00 on him <Likely the "freight" for this specimen was more than half this...> but from what I have seen I thought was a bargain. He was great at the fish store and stooped there 4 times in 2 months and always ate and looked great. The only difference is my SG is 1.20-1.21 while there's is kept at 1.15-1.16. <Both too low> Said they use that for parasite control. <Mmm, yes, and to save on salt mix, allow for greater/easier gas diffusion...> I have already taken your advice and will let run its course. He is still eating great and I have increased my water changes to twice a week and not sure what else I can do. My wife is waiting in the background to say I told you not to spend so much on a fish. How long should I wait to take any action do you think? <What action?> It does not effect any other fins. His color is great also. I will try to get a good pic to you today if I can. Do you think its fungal or a bacterial thing? Any knowledge you will share is always appreciated.

Re: chrysurus Angel Sick 10/20/07 The action I mean is if it gets worse under ideal water conditions which are pretty good now? 0 nitrites 0 ammonia 5-10 nitrates 8.2 PH, not sure if I should treat for fungus or bacterial? <...> I think its bacterial. I noticed today after looking close that when he opens his pectoral fins it looks white on his body where the fins lay against. Not sure if that was there but I'm afraid it will spread. Thanks Again <... Please read... on WWM re infectious disease and marine fishes. B>

Re: chrysurus Angel Sick - 10/20/07 I did read through tons of your site as I stated it still left me somewhat unsure. I'm sure its bacterial or fungus but with the blood spots I would have to lean towards bacterial. I started treatment today with API triple sulfa <... had you read... you would NOT be doing this> in a QT tank and will let you know how it works out. If I read to much more to much time will pass and so will my fish. Thanks <I understand... but isolating this fish, leaving it in a quarantine or treatment tank will not get you toward improving its health. As stated, only time, good care will possibly resolve the white rings around the pectoral fins... NOT an infectious issue... Bob Fenner>

Re: chrysurus Angel Sick - 10/21/07 Yes I understand but its getting worse everyday and today there's blood showing but he still ate but not with the vigor he once did. <Yes... but this has little to do with a treatable state/infection...> Didn't want to take a chance and I guess I'm desperate and just want to give him a chance. <...> Even though I did get a deal on him its still a ton a money to me. Plus its the 1st one I have seen at a LFS and I have a ton around me in the Tampa FL area. <Still an inappropriate/too large specimen...> While I was browsing your site I read on one of the questions that the Meg <...? Mag?> pumps are over rated on there gallon per hour. Reason I'm asking is I want to improve the water quality as much as I can like you stated and I was looking over my hole system and never really knew what my little giant pumped per GPH so I looked it up. I was surprised to see it pumped only 500 GPH @ 1ft head height. Well overflows are 1200 gallon per hour so I was thinking about getting a Mag 12 or 18. I don't want the 18 to pump so much my sump goes dry because the overflows cant keep up. I have been using the little giant for some time now and have been happy but I want to get the most out of it. <... please see WWM re pump selection. Please look before writing...> I also went and bought a refractometer and was surprised to see how far off my swing arm hydrometer was off. I'm very devoted to my fish and hobby and your site is so helpful I even tell the guys at the LFS about it. So much info you go in there for one thing and get tied up with a ton of different things. If I can get him to pull through I'm going to try a DSB I stumbled upon your site for nitrate control. Thank You Again <A shame we did not chat before your purchasing this specimen. Is the source willing to take it back? There is little chance of it adapting to captive conditions... BobF>

Good lesson...? Angel sel. 9/2/07 I recently lost some nice fish to a parasite, so know i just invested in a full quarantine setup. anyways will be starting to restock a 75 gallon fish only with live rock and a refugium, and skimmer. I would like to add some of my favorite fish in this tank, they are C. argi, c. potters, flame angel, Flagfin angel, and the golden angel, I realize they cannot all go in this size tank so which is the best for this setup, and is it possible to mix any if there added at the same time. there is also an anemone in this tank, <What species? Could be trouble...> other possible fish mates are a pair of clowns, a yellow tang, and a small wrasse, thanks Ron. <Likely so. I'd try the Little TWA Angel and the Flame... Potter's and Flagfins are way too touchy and Goldens need much more room than this... All this could be surmised by perusing WWM. RMF>

Please help me select two angelfish for two separate tanks 8/23/07 Dear Bob and friends, Thank you for all your previous answers. I really appreciate it very much. <Welcome> I have two identical 170 gallon tanks. I wish to house only one large angelfish and a two tangs in each of the tanks. Could you help me chose two angelfish so I could house them in separate tanks. <Mmm, maybe> I have six in mind but I am having difficulty choosing because they all seems so hardy and beautiful. I was thinking of 1. Holocanthus ciliaris (Queen Angelfish), 2. Pomacanthus Imperator (Emperor Angelfish), 3. Arusetta Asfur (Asfur Angelfish), 4. Pomacanthus Annularis (Blue ring angelfish), 5. Holocanthus Passer (King Passer) and lastly Pomacanthus Maculosus (Yellow bar angelfish). Please help me make a decision. Thank you and I will be awaiting for your reply. Thank you so much for your help. <All gorgeous animals... and all would/will eventually outgrow this volume/size system... I am esp. particular with the subgenus Arusetta... and the Annularis is a fave for being good-looking and rather peaceful... BobF>

Large Angel, sel. 4/22/07 Hello everyone <Matt> I been wanting to get a large angel for awhile and not to sure on which would be best for my system. I have a 200 gal that's 2'W X 2'H x 7'L. 120lb+ of LR, 40 gal refugium, Coralife Needle Wheel Skimmer rated for a 220 gal, and 3 XP3's. I have a 16" Panther Grouper, 5" Foxface Lo, 8" Spiny box Puffer, and a 4" Sargassum Angler & very peaceful. I really wanted a Queen angel but after reading your site I see that's not a good idea. And Dwarfs stay too small and might end up as lunch. Maybe a Koran or a Blueface? <The former is a far better choice... much more likely to live> I didn't see to much about the Blueface <I lumped this species with its two subcongeners (the subgenus Euxiphipops) as they're all about the same in terms of use, husbandry. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/euxiphipops.htm and the linked files above.> but I did read some about the Koran. And I been eyeballing LiveAquaria and they have had a large adult Koran that's 5" to 7" for $130 over a month now, plus they have had a 8"in there Divers Den section for awhile too. I know you should get one around 4" but my LFS wants doesn't guarantee there SW fish and LiveAquaria has a great one. Any advice would be great! Thanks Matt Owens <Mmmm.... well... your tank is going to be very full... and by and large it is better to pick a sub-adult Pomacanthid... Bob Fenner>

Angels - Personifer, Chrysurus, Annularis 11/22/06 Hi Crew - <Bret> I am trying to do some research on the above mentioned angels. I have a very lightly stocked 135G reef tank that needs a centerpiece fish with some personality. <Mmm, well any of these three will outgrow this volume... first psychologically...> The tank has been up for several years and is very stable, it currently houses a selection of soft and LPS corals, a large clam, a rose BTA <These angels consume anemones in the wild... possibly soft and stony coral polyps...> and a few small fish. The tank is heavily circulated and skimmed with an oversized LifeReef sump setup. I understand the risks to LPS corals, clam and anemone, and am willing to move them out to my other tank for the right fish. If one of these angels would work I would simply accept the tank as a live rock and-whatever-the-angel-doesn't-eat-tank. <All three species are rated for historical survivability on WWM... Please read there. Bob Fenner> My problem is I can't find a lot of specific information on these particular species. I'd like to get the fish small and let him grow out in the tank. I know 135G isn't big for an angel which is why I'm "trying" to target some of the smaller members of the family. The only tank mates are a pair of ocellaris clowns, a royal Gramma and a 2" Hawkfish. Can you comment on the suitability of any of these fish for my setup? I have no interest in buying a fish that will require a bigger tank. I'd love to expand, but it isn't very realistic. My main concerns are tank size requirements and adaptability to an aquarium environment. Thanks in advance for your advice. Bret M. Packard <<Yikes... didn't see this part. RMF>>

Livestock Choices - 10/9/06 I'm about six months into a 240 marine tank and have stocked it with a Purple and Yellow Tang, a Coral Beauty, two small tank raised Maroon Clowns, half a dozen blue and green Chromis, two Neon Damsels, two Fairy Wrasse, a Pseudochromis, two Neon Gobies, two small tank raised Queen Conks, a couple of Electric Blue Crabs. I have a tank raised juvenile Mac Angel on request at the LFS, and was told they should have some in a couple of months. Don't plan to purchase any more fish, long term plans are to settle in and enjoy. <I would not recommend adding a Maculosus with your current stocking list. Your mix of peaceful and aggressive fish may be pushed too far with the addition of a huge bully like the Mac. If you really want a Mac you may consider trading in the fairy wrasses and Chromis.> Aggression is very limited, fish wise. <For now. You have some fish that tend to grow up into bullies.> One of the Clownfish bites my hand whenever I change the lettuce or seaweed. After feeding Sharks, Rays and Eels in the wild without a nibble, it's strange to be attacked by one of my own fish! Per advice of Wet Web, I purchased some live rock for the Coral Beauty to graze on, and took out some of the 'dead' rock. <If by "dead" you mean base rock then leave it in the tank. With the addition of live rock your base rock will eventually become 'live' and beneficial.> I was horrified to read that Dwarf Angels don't live as long in a fish only as they do in a reef system. I immediately changed the GE natural lights to ones that are supposed to bring out algae and other beneficial things in the live rock. I also converted the tank to RO water, and am very pleased with the results. Water is crystal clear, perfect PH, with a 30 gallon change and lots of fresh charcoal every two weeks. The chiller keeps the temp at a solid 78 degrees. I threw away that cheap plastic hydrometer, and bought a decent one. Fish health is very good. They are fed three times a day, with Selcon and vitamins mixed in for one feeding. I plan to purchase a quality skimmer, other than that, is there anything else to insure keeping the fish healthy for the long term? <Are you currently running a skimmer? Research and then purchase the best skimmer you can afford. 30 gallon water changes weekly would also be a great idea. Skimming and water changes can be a key to success with any tank, but even more so with fish only tanks. It's good to see your ph and temp are well regulated. I'd also suggest skipping the lettuce and sticking with seaweed/Nori soaked in Selcon.> Plans for a small reef tank, around 45 gallons, are in the works, to enjoy the reef between dives. :) <Your fish list in its current form is reef safe. You could always turn the 240 into your reef tank <G>.> Best, <Best of luck to you. Continue educating yourself and I am certain you will meet with success! - Emerson> Teresa

Re: Less Problematic Large Angel In SPS Dominated Reefs 9/4/06 James at al., Thanks for your reply. Trying to obtain all the info I can get on this issue before I decide, I've been re-reading your "angel compatibility FAQ", and noticed one of your crew answers that, somehow, I missed before. When asked the top three large angels he'd choose for a reef, on a "blind decision", Bob Fenner answered: "<Okay... Pomacanthus annularis, Genicanthus species of any kind you like, Chaetodontoplus mesoleucos... my choices. Bob Fenner>. The Genicanthus spp. is easy to understand, but I've been wondering why the P. annularis. Specially in number one. Is it because of a specific diet or behaviour that is distinct from the other Pomacanthus? > The annularis will nip at base of sessile invertebrates including corals. They are also known to pick/nip on Tridacnid clams.> I did not consider the P. Annularis before, because I had the impression it would be similar to the P. Imperator (which I prefer) as regards its "reef safeness", but this statement made me look at it with new eyes... And if the Annularis is less "Russian roulette" than the ones I've been considering, I may opt for it. <If you MUST have an angel, I would go with Bob's suggestions keeping in mind that none are totally safe.> Regards, <And to you. James (Salty Dog)> Jo?

Angelfish choice 8/8/06 Hey guys, <And ladies> Well further to some in depth discussions with Eric about angelfishes and butterfly fishes a few weeks back, I have now come to a conclusion (I was previously very undecided). I definitely want to get a large type angel as the centre piece fish (holocanthus or Pomacanthus). Really the tank is going to be all about the angelfish, and everything else will have to be arranged to suit than animal, including type of set up and tank mates. <Good approach> To that end, I am trying to decide on which species of angel to go for: 1. Queen Angel (H. ciliaris) 2. Maculosus angel (P. maculosus) 3. Emperor Angel (P. imperator) 4. Navarchus Angel (P. navarchus) While the navarchus is the smallest, it is probably also the most delicate. I have had an emperor before, and would be like to try something different. That draws me to the other two - the Mac and the queen. Of the two, which is most likely to be the better long term choice? <The former... tank bred availability, much easier going personality... Just needs a good deal of space...> The tank will probably be my existing 180 (which is currently in storage, dried out, while renovating my house). <Will need something bigger... like a 300...> Tank mates will probably be a nice tang (powder blue maybe, purple tang..... nothing huge like a Naso tang), along with a dwarf angel (probably flame angel), a couple of gobies (probably pair of yellow watchman) and a shoal of Chromis. The angel will be last to be added. I was thinking of adding a 5 or 6" young adult (adult colours) rather than a small juvenile. <Better to start at 3-4" overall length> How quickly is an angel of this size likely to grow, and how big is he likely to get. Like everyone, I would love the animal to grow to full wild sizes - but in reality I think this rarely happens. Thanks for your input. Regards, Matt <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/maculosus.htm and the files linked above. Bob Fenner>

Blue line angel... sel... Ignorance 7/28/06 Hello, I live in corpus Christi and I went to Houston and bought a Big BLUE LINE ANGEL. <Best not to buy "big"...> She has developed cloudy eyes and will not eat and stays up in the corner of the tank and she shakes every now and then. She also floats on one side. I think I am going to loose her. <And likely lose this fish as well> She has not eaten anything. <...> I have stayed up with her one night all night just to see if she would eat when the lights were off but nothing. <? Pomacanthids don't eat at night...> Please help me. Also I wanted to know if a fish had a bacterial infection <What?...> if it rubbed on another fish would that fish get sick and die also? <Where do folks get such notions? How can people get by with such ignorance of simple biology? Physics, chemistry? Do my fellow citizens know more about Oprah than reality?> Thanks, Kim <Where to start here? Have you read our archives on Marine Angels? Selection, Disease? What did you think re buying a "big" specimen? Please read what is posted. RMF>

Genicanthus personatus 3/17/06 Dear Crew, <Lawrence> Couple of questions here. 1. Does the G. personatus do well in captivity? 2. Where can I go (online) to purchase this angel fish? <Think you will have a difficult time finding. Do a Google search.> I understand that they are rare and come from Hawaii. <Yes.> If they are too hard to come by, my next choice would be an Emperor angel. I do have a reef tank loaded with Xenia, Gorgonia, green star polyps, Zoanthids, mushrooms (green hairy, purple and red) colt coral, pagoda, galaxy and a handful of sps coral. I've read where the Genicanthus angels are the safest and the emperor is somewhat safe but will nip at some of the coral mentioned above. I'm very nervous about putting the emperor in, but have heard success stories as well, unless they were delusions. <Wouldn't do this with corals present, especially if the angel is adult size.> I have a collection of tangs (4 yellow, 1 purple, 1 unicorn, 1 Sailfin and 2 regal blues) that the fish will be introduced to. There should be plenty of space (500 gallons). 3. What would you do if you had to have an angel fish? <Remove the coral.> thanks for your help...<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Lawrence

Queen angel selection and age - 03/11/2006 Hi Bob I want to purchase a medium queen angel , about 3- 5" as recommended. My LFS has one that's about 3-3 1/2" with its juve coloration almost gone. I was debating whether to buy it or hold out for a bigger one. Is there any difference in terms of acclimating to a home aquarium between 3" or 5" angel? <The three inchers are much better...> Which one would you recommend? Also, approximately how old is a queen at 3" <Under a year...> and what is their growth rate in captivity? <Mmm, five, six inches in two years... six, seven in three...> Currently I have a 125tank and I'm getting a 265(7ft x 2ft) early next year. <Will need this. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Cyano and Show Angels 11/02/05 Hey Ali, Thanks for your reply Ali...always informative and very helpful. It's always good to hear from you. <You too Steve...> Follow up question for you or any of the other gurus at WWM: I have two large SEIO power heads, of which one of them was moved to flow over the section of substrate where the Red Cyano is forming without much improvement. I physically remove the Cyano, but within a few days it comes back. I feed daily, and give just enough for them to consume quickly without settling out, then give a little more, until they have all received some food. The Rabbitfish is a "pig" (as you said he would be), so I have to sometimes trick him away so the others can eat. Also, I give a small piece (3" x 3") of Nori each day for grazing. Do you think I should go to every other day with either of these? Every place that sells fish recommends feeding multiple times daily, so I considered my feeding practice less than that. I have chatted with other hobbyists and many indicate that the daily recommended feeding schedule is "hogwash" and that the fish should only be fed 3 - 4 times per week. I can tell you that since each fish have arrived, within a short period of time they gain girth and look very healthy. With the Cyano however, I wonder if I should cut back? <Steven, how often are you doing your water changes? Siphon out as much of this gunk each time you do change your water. I believe you have a fish-only with live rock aquarium, correct? If so, what is your photoperiod? Do a large water change, siphoning out as much Cyano as possible. Then simply turning your lights completely off for 3 days. Afterwards, cutting your photoperiod back to 2 to 3 hours per day for 2 to 3 weeks. I'm not sure how your current system is plumbed but consider once again increasing water circulation. Regarding the water changes, it goes without saying that RO/DI water is a must; however check your TDS as you may have old filter cartridges. Sometimes the cartridges can wear out in just a couple months depending on your tap water quality. It may also be time to change your membrane as well. Additionally, make sure you use a high-quality salt mix. This Tropic Marin Pro-Reef salt is just phenomenal and I would look into that further as well.> Last question: I am looking at adding a spectacular Angel. Considering the following: Pomacanthus Chrysurus, Gold Flake Angel, and last but certainly not least a Conspicillatus. What is your feeling on these with regards to quality of fish after transport, transition to captivity, and hardiness? <All three can be incredibly hardy once adjusted. The P. chrysurus being the easiest to acclimate to captive life. Small/Medium sized Conspics do great, where as the larger full-blown adults have a much harder time adjusting. If you do purchase this fish, make it a point with your dealer to provide you with the smallest one possible. Over the years however, the smallest Conspic I've ever seen come through L.A. was a little over 3inches. Smaller ones also do tend to fetch a higher price than the larger ones, but well worth it if you can locate one. Goldflakes are generally a hardy fish as well. Most tend to adapt quite easily to captive life. I know several people who have tried them and from I know, everything has been going smoothly so far.> I would like to get a large "show" fish, however it appears that the more common found for sell is a medium size at best. Would the medium be more likely to acclimate well, or should I keep looking for the large or extra large variety? <Medium/Small is always your best option. Generally speaking, avoid tiny, large or extra large fish unless they are aggressively eating prepared foods.> Again your comments are greatly appreciated. Y'all take care! Steven <You too Steve...Good luck! - Ali>

Done with the Goni., addressing overstocking - Holy Cow! 10/25/05 Hi Adam <Ignatio.> Again, I need to confess that seems I over stocking my fishes. <Uh-Oh!> In my 100 gallon (the age: 9 months), I have: 9 fishes + 4 Lysmata amboinensis 1 blue face 4" (2 months already) <This guy is a tank buster…needs a much larger tank as an adult.> 4 Flame angels 2" (3 months already) <Is that a typo?! Four flame angels…. honestly I'm surprised you haven't had more problems, as harsh as this may sound you really should consider ridding yourself a few of them.> 1 Regal angel 3" (2.5 months already) <That's another angel that needs a boat-load of room. WAY to many angels my friend. As well as not having enough physical room, there could….there WILL be aggression later down the road. Seems like you want this tank to go in the direction of a reef so in that case all but maybe the flame (only one preferably) should be omitted. Even without considering the future reef these fish need new homes at earliest convenience, to avoid aggression and space restraints, especially the larger angels and at least 2 of the flame angels…preferably 3 out of 4 as mentioned above.> 1 Chaetodon lunulatus 1.5" (only eat open brain coral) (3 months already) <Careful now it could pick on other corals down the road, including your new Goni, best to omit this one to in a full blown reef.> 1 Yellow tang 2.5" (1 month) 1 Purple tang 2" (2 weeks) <Oh yes the warring Zebrasomas we have spoke of in our previous conversations, well as I said earlier their will be aggression especially as they both become adults, eventually you will be only able to keep one and that's IF your yellow decides to play nice for the time being, you may have to remove one sooner than later.> All of them are healthy and want to eat, some times I saw my biggest flame angel is chasing each other but not too aggressively because I put them in the same time. (the same case like yellow vs. purple tang). <It will get worse as they get older, these animals weren't "built" to live in this proximity. What seems like harmless nipping, chasing can be quite stressful>Fortunately my Blue face not bothering the others. So what do you think the longevity of my fishes for 9 of them <This array of 9 fish is not at all a wise long term assortment. The blue face and the regal alone need tanks upwards of 200 gallons (separately not together). I would seriously consider re-thinking your stocking list especially if you want a reef, look into gobies, clowns, blennies and cardinals to name a few (after you fix the current problem that is). Lots of enjoyment in these fish most are "reef-friendly" and would make much better long term citizens.> Do you ever go to Indonesia? <<Di Fenner says Indonesia is one of her favorite places on earth to visit. MH>> <No…farthest away from the mainland I have been is our tropical island chain State known as Hawaii.> Thank you Adam Best regards Ignatio <Good luck, and if you want some more ideas restocking your tank I would be happy to help, Adam J.>

Marine Angels: (Holacanthus bermudensis) 10/11/05 Bob and the Crew, <Adam J with you tonight.> Thank you so much for this awesome site...I have come across this site a few months ago and I have enjoyed reading all the posts here tremendously...(not to mention learning new things every day). Thanks! <And thank you for the kind words, I will share them with rest of the crew.> Today I have a question and I hope you guys can help me with... I have a 29g Fish only tank running for 6 months, fully cycled with Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5 ppm Ph 8.3 and stable Currently I have one tomato clown and everything went well...Recently I bought a juvenile Blue Angel fish (1" size). Since I am planning to upgrade to 125g tank <180-gallons would be better for the adult size of the angel.> in 6 months time and I love raising this beautiful fish, I decide to go ahead trying out this plan. Upon bringing him home, I then had this Angel quarantined for three weeks and he was very lively, eating and playing actively... < A good sign.> The only unusual thing was that I notice his swimming was erratic occasionally (like charging or bolting forward unexpectedly). I checked all water parameters carefully (including electrical grounding) and everything was normal and I thought it could be due to his shyness (when he saw shadows etc...). <In the wild, juveniles of this size rarely venture out into open water, they are usually hiding amongst the shadows and rock, be sure to have lots of hiding spaces. Intense lighting can also spook them. Subdued lighting would be best to "comfort" him.> Today I take him to the display tank where the tomato clown is and I notice his behaviour did not change. He is hanging around with the clown (they are both the same size) and the clown does not bother him at all... However he is still occasionally bolting/charging forward which is now staring to stress the clown as he may be startled and probably thinking the Angel starts attacking him... His erratic behaviour looks very unsettling and I am not sure what is wrong with him...The clown behaves normally as always, but a bit stressed out if anything. Please help... <Sounds like he is insecure of his surroundings. Make sure there are plenty of caves in which he can hide himself. Furthermore even at this size I suspect the confines of 29 gallons is getting to him, Angels love room to roam.> I have a short movie clip as well of his behaviour, if this helps... Thanks much, Rob <Read here for more info: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/holacanthus/, Adam J.>

Angel Fish Deaths 9/21/05 Over the past year, we have had multiple angel fish deaths. They have all occurred suddenly without any apparent injury to the other fish in the tank. The saltwater tank has been set up for two years, and we do regular water changes, and have no abnormalities in the water. Currently, we have a damsel fish, two clown fish, and a yellow tang, in addition to shrimp, crabs, and snails with live rock. Each new addition to the 70 gallon tank (all have been angel fish. a blue angel, six bar angel, coral beauty, and Flagfin angel) have lived for a couple months, and then died suddenly. Prior to their death, they appear well integrated into the tank, have no outward abnormalities, no signs of trauma, and are eating well. We can't seem to figure out what the cause of death could be. Please provide any suggestions to help. Could there be any other hard metal abnormalities even though that we use a RO/DI filter? Copper, lead, and iron testing have all been negative. Thanks for the help, Dale <First impression is you are not meeting their requirements/diet, etc. Read some of the articles here, Dale. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/ James (Salty Dog)> <<Also, most of the angels mentioned are not hardy for aquarium use... RMF>>

Bigger Tank...Bigger Fishes? (Cont'd.) 7/31/05 Scott, Thanks for the reply. <You're quite welcome!> Lots to think about. You mentioned the Genicanthus sp of angels. Never even really heard of them before. Did some quick looking up and they look like beautiful fish!! Do you think that a Swallowtail Angel would work in my system? <They are nice fishes, but they can be a bit sensitive, coming from deeper water. They are subject to stresses from the collection process. Acquisition of a specimen from a reliable source is critical. They do get to pretty good sizes, so you do want to make sure that you have a lot of room for the fish to maneuver in its captive environment, as well as tankmates that don't harass it. Quarantine is crucial!> On another note, I also saw a small (3") Singapore angel at the LFS. Opinions? <This fish is a notoriously tough fish to keep. Many don't acclimate to captive life and failure to feed. I'd pass on this one, myself. I kept one for about two years, after which it died most mysteriously! I haven't heard too many success stories about this fish in the long term, and have been rather cynical about keeping this fish again. That's my personal two cents on the fish!> If the larger angels are out, what are the odds of adding a second pigmy angel to my tank with an established Coral Beauty? Always wanted a Flame Angel. <Always a potential catastrophe in the making, IMO. I just received correspondence from another hobbyist who attempted this unsuccessfully. It's not impossible- but it is very challenging and fraught with potential problems. If your system was specifically set up just for Centropyge, and stocked with them carefully from the start, there is potential for success. Breeding groups, or "harems" can be established if carefully managed. My advice is to pass on this experiment unless you go this dedicated species-specific route.> Perhaps some ill-tempered, mutated Seabass!!! lol <Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight! :) > On a totally different note, how would you recommend QTing a clam? Do I need the intense lighting for the QT??? I just have a little 10-gal (also have a 29avail now) simple setup with a HOT filter and a sponge filter with the screw in PC bulbs. <In a quarantine setup, you can get by with this type of lighting because of the proximity to the light in such a small tank. Supplemental feeding will help compensate for the lower levels of lighting. You can elevate the clam on an eggcrate/PVC platform. This will increase proximity to the light, and also allow potentially disruptive organisms (such as parasitic snails) to "fall off" to the bottom of the tank. Do read up on the WWM site under "Quarantine of Marine Invertebrates".> Thanks again!! Ray <My pleasure. Good luck!>

Juvenile Chrysurus 27 Jul 2005 I have a juvenile Chrysurus angel that is probably about the size of a quarter. I didn't mean to get him so small.<Hi Brandon, MacL here with you today. No worries on the size as long as we can get past the barrier of getting him to eat.> I ordered him on the net from Marine Center, so I know the fish was properly cared for. That said, I've had him for about 2 to 3 weeks. He hasn't eaten any prepared foods, and that includes live brine. He is constantly picking at the rocks however, showing somewhat of a feeding response. <If he is constantly picking he is probably eating copepods found in the rocks. He is more than likely getting enough to sustain him but unless you have a way to refill what he eats or you reseed the tank with pods he will eventually wear out the supply. There are many places that you can buy pods to restock or you can use this time to get him eating other things. One of my new favorites is www.seapods.com. A new business that sells beneficial pods to help replenish.> There are no fish in the 125G tank to pick on him. <Does that mean there are no other fish at all or just that no one there will pick on him? Often they can learn to eat other foods based on examples from other fish.> He has now developed a large white clump on his left pectoral fin. It looks very large, too large to be Ich. <Sounds to me like it might be Lymphocystis, you might check the site to determine if it is. If so good water conditions should take care of the problem.> I'm worried that his immune system may be compromised from not eating. <Perhaps just a bit stressed from being a small tyke and shifted.> Any ideas of what to feed when live brine won't work? <Lots of stuff might appeal to him. He might eat mussels cracked open. He might eat Mysis either frozen or live. Did you contact the marine center to ask them what he was eating while there. I have had a lot of success with fish not eating by putting garlic on the frozen foods. Seems to encourage them to eat.> He chases it, only to look and not eat. <Good luck, MacL> Thanks.

Large angelfish selection 7/17/05 I just wanted to say thank you, I was convinced that I had to have a 6 banded angel, and that no others would do! That was until I read your article and realized that it would be so selfish of me to buy this beautiful creature only to have it die after only months. <Likely weeks, even days.> I would never want to be a part of the death of such a magnificent creature! Your article has convinced me to get a Koran when I am ready for one! I really appreciate all of your wonderful advice, especially since my LFS has NO IDEA about anything. ( They recommended and I now own the problematic SeaClone 150!) No longer will I take their word for it! I think people like you and sites like this can help hobbyists realize that many are out to push the product, and not truly interested in the well being of the fish! Thank you again, Tanis Montminy <Thank you for your acknowledgment and bolstering our sense of what we're doing here. Bob Fenner>

Which Angel(s) would be best? Hello! This is my first time writing after reading many...many items from the website. I find your information and suggestions very helpful and obviously well thought out. <We've... walked the walk... and are able/willing, even eager to "talk the talk"...> Anyway....I have stocked a FO 90gal "show" type tank with a few peaceful residents. A Christmas wrasse, Fiji puffer, Royal Gramma, Orangetail Butterfly, Yellow Watchman Goby, and a small school (5) of Green Chromis. I would like to start adding the final fish to the tank and thought a combo of Angels would finish off the tank nicely. <...> I am thinking about maybe one full size Angel and one dwarf. <Mmm, no... this tank is too small for a large angel...> Could you give me suggestions on a good combo for this size and type of tank. The tank has good filtration and skimmer. Thanks in advance, Donald R. Wear <Look to one of the medium to smaller genera, species... Genicanthus, Centropyge... reviewed and evaluated on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Question About Pomacanthus annularis - 06/05/05 First of all, let me say that I think your website is wonderful, and I've read your book cover to cover. <<Hello Steve, Eric R. here today, and I assume you're referring to Bob's book...excellent reading it is.>> I've gained much knowledge from reading the FAQs and your readers' questions. <<Yes...much to be found/discovered among these pages.>> This started as my wife's hobby, but I found myself helping out a lot, especially in the LFS. I guess I'm a good listener so I've been able to help my wife decipher what the LFS sales guys are saying. I also refurbished the filtration system on an old 125 that I bought used, so I guess I'm becoming a hobbyist. <<Tee hee! Does go that way sometimes. Hopefully you're enjoying the involvement.>> Finally, I have a question for you. Currently, I have a fish only 125 gallon marine aquarium with the following fish. <<Wait! What's this "I" stuff? Thought you said this was your wife's hobby <Big Grin>?>> Clarkii Clown, Flame Hawk, Niger Trigger, Green Bird Wrasse, Hippo Tang, Wolf Eel Blenny Some of the sales people are telling my wife she can have a dozen or so fish (or more if they're small). <<Not surprising to hear, but, stocking a tank is MUCH more involved than basing numbers on the size of the tank and the size of the fish. Factors such as hardiness, activeness, temperament/compatibility, etc. must be considered. Each addition must be researched carefully, and any decisions on size should be based on the fishes SIZE AT MATURITY.>> She is definitely wanting to add an Annularis angel. <<Ahh...Pomacanthus annularis...beautiful fish.>> I'm thinking that this would still be ok, but we should probably not add any more after this. Do you think there's room for an Annularis? I realize the tang and trigger can get very large <<and that bird wrasse grows to a foot on the reef.>>, but they're both still quite small. Your input is much appreciated. <<To be honest Steve, I'm hesitant about this mix of fish. The tank is large enough for the angel (though at a mature 20" I would prefer to see it go in to a tank twice this size) but will become quite crowded as all these large fish grow. I think all would be happier/healthier in the long run without the tang or the trigger; my vote would be to remove the Hippo Tang (too skittish and disease prone in small systems, IMO).>> Thank you, Steve <<Welcome, Eric Russell>>
Question About Pomacanthus annularis II - 06/07/05 actually PYTB Thanks so much for the reply. <<Happy to do so.>> That's not the first time I've heard about Hippo Tangs being a little harder to keep. Is this something that happens later in life? <<Not in my opinion...I've noted/read of their skittish nature, proclivity to succumb to Ich at all ages.>> Our Tang looks like one of the most healthy fish we own. He eats well and is always grazing on algae, and this fish has grown from 2.5" to almost 4" in around 6 months. <<Perhaps you are the exception. These fish are naturally very robust and very active. They need lots of food, and this fish actually requires a diet higher in protein than vegetable matter.>> It's actually one of my favorites, and I'd hate to give it up to make room for someone new. Maybe the upgrade to 300 gallons will be sooner than I thought. <<Always a good reason to go bigger (like you need a reason <G>). A 300 would make a terrific display for the selection of fish you listed originally...and maybe a couple more discreet additions as well.>> Thanks again for the response, and I'll be talking to you all soon. <<Looking forward to it.>> Steve <<Eric R.>>

Emperor Angelfish Hello. I was very concerned about the Emperor Angelfish I would like one of my own, they are so beautiful and majestic... so I was wondering first are they at all difficult? Do they require expert care? I own a glass 150gallon tank at full grown could several exist in my tank? Write back soon thanks! <Read here my friend. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/imperator.htm - James (Salty Dog)>

Passer Angelfish Switcheroo With a Flame Angel - 15 May 2005 I am angry right now as I went to purchase a flame angel for my 75 gal tank and came home with a Passer Angel because I was told it would only grow to about 8 inches! <Yowsa, someone either was majorly misinformed or majorly confused.> He is beautiful and approx 3.5 to 4 inches right now. <They are a stunning fish.> He came with a high price tag and now that I have done some research realize I am going to have to upgrade my new 75 gal within 6 months. <Definitely a very quick growing fish.> Not what I want to do and my husband would kill me anyway. <Eeek> Do Saltwater fish stores take fish back for the same price normally. <I think that a reputable fish store would take the fish back simply because you were misinformed about his total size. Now they might give you store credit instead of cash back. That often depends on different stores.> They are closed today so not sure of what to do. <Call first thing as soon as they are opened and only speak to a manager or owner of the store.> Believe me I am learning the hard way and will get better at this, already learning LSWF may not be as educated as I which is not much at the moment! <I'm sure it was an honest mistake and like you said they were not as educated. If I might make a suggestion, it might behoove you to put any fish you want on hold then get educated about what they need before you make the purchase. I'm not sure the type of store that you bought the fish from but often many of these stores aren't specifically for fish and don't give the staff the appropriate education. I'm sure that its more a lack of time constraint than anything else but you might also do some research to find a store in the area that can give you the information you need.> Any suggestions would be appreciated. Great site, very informative!!!!!! <How kind of you to say, thanks MacL>

Annularis Angel, James' go Hey crew, on the last question I forgot to mention in previous email: How do you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup? He will be one of only about three other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any angels I like that don't outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really considering him? <I've search a few sites and the Annularis (Blue Ringed Angel) can attain a length of 12'. They are considered hardy as far as the angel family. Myself, I would prefer the Blue Girdled Angel. They would fair a little better in a 65. Your tank size is slightly below borderline for any of these angels as they will grow. James (Salty Dog)> Thanks <<This is a VERY POOR choice IMO... James, see WWM, the web, references re. RMF>>
Blue Ringed Angel Hey Jim, blue- girdled angel? That's received a (3) rating and a "difficult maintenance" from everywhere I have researched. So, that angel is HARD to keep and dies often and mysteriously within a month or two. Why would I take my chances on something that has a poor and dismal survival rating. Are you sure you're knowledgeable about this particular thing and you should be replying to emails? And next time try to be a little more professional. <Jay, I probably was in err suggesting that to you. My basis for that lies with other people and myself who have kept them. Together we felt they were not that difficult to keep as far as angels go. No angel is easy to keep. But also keep in mind that all other parameters have to be strictly maintained. That is a 125 or larger, pristine water quality along with 10% water changes and an excellent diet. The tank also needs to be loaded with live rock and been set up at least six months. I'm wrong in suggesting that since I don't know your experience or skill level. Most newbies (if you are one) generally will not go through the work necessary to maintain this fish and therefore the fish would probably rate a three on a one to four level. I do try my best to give professional, informative and safe suggestions in my responses. But since I am human, the chance for error can exist. My apologies, and you should stick with the Blue Ringed Angel or a Koran which I would rate at a two level in degree of difficulty. James (Salty Dog)>

Bad advice Bob, Probably wrong, but I based this on my having kept a couple of Blue Girdled and on advice from a few site who sell these type angels. <Mmm, well, this is what you should do... and folks' experiences do vary... I assure you though... as recorded on the Net, in print... that the subgenus that includes this fish... almost never thrive in captivity> Then again, if LFSs want to sell them instead of flushing them down the toilet, they are not going to tell you they are difficult. But anyway, the two I've had lived a few years before they outgrew my 125 and had to be sold. They readily accepted any food I gave them. Quite possible that I was lucky, don't know. Thanks anyway for the response, and I will always keep this in mind. Regards, James (Salty Dog) <Thank you... will archive this with our input. Bob F>

Blue face angel, large angel sel. HI and thanks for the opportunity for my question. I have the opportunity to purchase a 30 cm Blue face angel. I personally think it's wrong to capture fish this size for the aquarium trade but means nothing to the blue face I'm thinking of buying. I would like to ask you if you think it's wise buying a fish this size, ( I really feel for the poor thing and it is a stunning fish), and what size tank should it really belong in so it's quite comfortable. I have a 550 litre tank, 4x 2 x 2 ( sorry we work in litres in Australia) to accommodate this fish while another tank can be established. Any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. <In general large specimens of Pomacanthids collected wild fare poorly... You can read re my opinions re Euxiphipops on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Mis-matched Marine Set-up -II ... (file under skimmer and angel selection) Thanks for your quick response and vital info. Three last questions please. You suggested to get a better protein skimmer for my 125g tank when I set it up for the fish transfer. SeaClone makes a larger model for up to 150 gallon tanks. Is it just an inferior design versus other makes? <Yes... read on re... get something better> Secondly, if I were to upsize to a 150 or 180g would it still be unadvisable to add a large angel, or any large fish, to the mix of Hippo Tang, Purple Tang, Foxface, Clown, Gobies, Cherub Angel, 6 line wrasse, Royal Gramma and Orchid Dottyback? <Mmm you could add a "larger" species of Angel... at least for a period of a few years in a larger system...> And if not, what type of large angel would have a better chance to mix, a blue face, blue girdled, or imperator ? Thanks for the help. <Of these, the Emperor. Bob Fenner>

A Marine Angel in Mumbai Hi, I am from Mumbai India and I've a 120 gal FOWLR marine tank that I've set up 5 months back. I've read and admired your site for more than a year now ... great work. <Thanks, everyone works hard to help when and where we can.> Currently I've 2 BTA with maroon clowns , 1 blue damsel , 1 yellow tang and 1 blue tang. My LFS has currently got a emperor angel (3 inch) and a blue face angel (4 inch). Both are in good health and eating prepared food. Since we do not get marine fish readily here I am tempted to buy both. I am planning to upgrade to a 180 gal tank next year. My question is (1) will there be a compatibility issue between the two angels and (2) if I've to choose, which will be your recommended choice. Thanks, Sumit <Hello, I am glad we have been able to help. I am sorry to say that I don't think the two fish will get along long term in your tank. A general rule as it pertains to angels is that if they are large in size and similar in color then they won't get along. An adult Emperor Angel and an adult blue face will be similar in color and might fight. I have seen it happen both ways. One where they coexisted and one where they fought. I would suggest to you not to try it. I don't think that it would be fair to the fish and that you would be asking for trouble. If I were to choose between the two fish I would go with the Emperor for the color or I would chose the Blue face for the smaller size so I could put more fish in the tank. Good Luck. MikeB.>

- Dwarf Angels - Greetings crew, After reading through compatibility FAQ's for "dwarf" and Pomacanthidae I found questions and answers relating to my situation, but not close enough to keep me from bugging you. Sorry, but here comes another "can I put this and this in this tank" question.... My 125g FOWLR tank is currently fallow following an error in judgment regarding a Tang in QT suffering from stress and reaction to copper used for a case of Ich. Never again will I move a fish from QT to display early. Anyways I lost a Yellow Tang and 2 Damsels, but my 4" Passer Angel, Talbot's and Fiji Devil Damsel are now recovering nicely in QT. I've been contemplating the restocking, and would really love to place 2 Centropyges in the 125. <Would suggest only one in a tank of this size.> I have a 2nd 20g QT to setup, and could introduce the new Angels at the same time I reintroduce the Passer and Damsels. <Would actually introduce the Centropyge first.> The tank has about 100lbs LR and 1" sandbed in the display and a 50g sump/fuge containing an oversized Tunze skimmer and 4" DSB w/ macro and @10lbs LR in the fuge. Is this a gamble I should take? <It would work, sure, but as I've mentioned, would suggest only one of those you list, and put it in before the Passer.> I haven't decided on the particular species but was considering the Flame, Heraldi, Venustus, Rusty, and Eiblii. That is if this is advisable. <All very nice choices.> Thanks for your help Kenney <Cheers, J -- >

Centropyge V Genicanthus 8 March 2005 I have a 48x24x24 reef tank that has primarily LPS and SPS. <Great size for a tank.> I am considering adding an angel to my tank and have narrowed the choices to a Centropyge multicolor and Genicanthus watanabei. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on which would be the most appropriate for a reef tank? <I have had both types of angels. The multicolor is probably one of my favorite fish in the entire world. That being said I did not find mine entirely trustworthy in a reef tank. He picked on my clam a bit and ate some my xenias. I had suspicions that he nibbled on some of my SPS' as well. But let me do say that you cannot get a more beautiful angel. In my experience the Centropyges are individuals. Some individual fish will nibble on things while others do not. I know that makes it difficult to assist with the decision but its more an accurate assessment of what the Centropyge will do.> I have read most of the summaries on the wetwebmedia.com site along with the FAQs but cannot find much information on the multicolor in terms of a reef tank. It appears that the Centropyge can be coral eaters and I was wondering if this is true for the multicolor, or if, since this is a deep water species, if that means that it would likely not eat coral? If there is a chance that it would eat coral then I would likely go with the watanabei since it appears that this species does not bother corals. Anyway, if you could let me know your thoughts it would be much appreciated. <Hope that helped, Good luck, MacL>
Multicolor Thanks very much for the great information. I guess I kind of knew that the Genicanthus was the safer choice but was holding out some hope for the multicolor since I saw one for the first time in a store a few days ago and it is a very nice looking fish, though the watanabei is beautiful as well. <You know Brian honestly if you find the fish of your dreams I really suggest getting it and making whatever accommodations you find necessary to keep it. You might not have ANY problems whatsoever and its worth it to have something that you find amazing. Good luck, MacL>

Angelfish Trade-Offs Hi Bob, <Scott F. in this afternoon!> I was interested in getting an Emperor Angelfish, or Majestic or Maculosus Angelfish but I am unsure of their compatibility with cleaner shrimp. <Fish, like people are all different. However, I would generally not be too concerned about these fishes attacking Cleaner Shrimp. This is not to say that they WON'T, but they are typically not much of a threat, in my experience. If you are keeping sessile inverts, like corals- forget it, as they will make a meal out of almost all corals you'd care to keep!> I have a 220g tank with the following fish: Powder Blue Tang Yellow Longnose Heniochus sp. Green Chromis Yellow Damsels Blue Chromis Yellow Watchmen Goby Mandarin Pistol Shrimp Sand Starfish Blue Crabs Banggai Cardinal Cleaner Wrasse Fairy Wrasse Flame Angel 2 Fire Gobies 2 False Percula Clownfish <A nice group of fishes and inverts...> Do you think these Angelfish are good? If not, any recommendations? Also, what about introducing a Sailfin tang to my powder blue tang? Thanks for your help. Candice <Well, Candice- each of the angels that you mentioned can be excellent pets if you select quality, healthy specimens, acclimate them carefully, and provide a stable environment. However, your tank has a pretty good population already, and these "full size" angels require a lot of physical space and territory. In fact, a rule of thumb offered by Bob and others is that you should dedicate at least 100 gallons of your system alone to just the angel. Maculosus Angels are awesome fish, however! If it were me, though, I'd be inclined to try a more "outgoing" Centropyge angel, like the Lemonpeel Angel (C. flavissimus) in your situation. It can reach a comfortable 5", is pretty outgoing and able to take care of itself, and can be quite hardy if you get a net-caught specimen. These guys are territorial with other angels, but should settle in nicely with your other fishes. I tend to encourage people to keep these "dwarf" angels more often, as they do have many of the endearing attributes of the bigger guys, but are generally less demanding in terms of space requirements. They can, of course, be challenging in their own right. In my opinion, the large Angels, particularly the Emperor, are best suited to situations where they are the "showcase" fish, and are surrounded by smaller, less active fishes. Housed this way, they can be spectacular! Also, I feel that you tank has too many smaller fishes in it to be able to house one of these guys comfortably for a natural life span. Remember, the Emperor can reach up to 15", and the others that you mention can hit a foot or more as well. I maintain a 72"x 24"x 30" (225 gallon) system, and I would be hesitant to house one of these fishes in anything less than an 8 foot long tank. Some people may disagree, but if you've ever seen one of these fishes at size in the wild, you'll realize that most of us should be thinking about smaller fishes in our systems. With regard to your question about the Sailfin Tang...This is another awesome fish, but it, too can hit 15" plus, and requires a huge tank as well. They are excellent fishes, however, durable and displaying great personalities! I would not add one to your tank at this point. Perhaps a Ctenochaetus species, like the Kole Tang, which is a much more modest-sized fish, would be a better choice. Or, there's always the old standby, the Yellow Tang. Common, but a good fish nonetheless! You have a very interesting tank, so any addition that you make should compliment the existing animals and add some interest, without overwhelming the system! Hope my diatribe inspires you to look into some of the smaller versions of the "big guys" found in the trade! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Pomacanthus annularis query Hey crew, on the last question I forgot to mention in previous email: How do you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup? He will be one of only about three other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any angels I like that don't outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really considering him? Thanks >>>Hello Jay, P. annularis is not a beginner's angel number one. Number two, your tank is much too small to accommodate one for any significant period of time. If you can't find a dwarf angel that you like...well I'm worried about you quite frankly Jay. :) Consider C. acanthops or C. argi. Both are attractive, very small and VERY hardy. The only caveat being that they are rather aggressive, but this usually isn't a problem if they are added last. Just don't keep them with very shy fish. Good Luck Jim<<<
A Debate Over Angels Hey Jim, you're worried about me? lol. That wasn't necessary man. Besides, everyone has different likings to things, to each their own. Second, I'm not a beginner and my tank has been setup for over two years and I've had fish for over 13 years. And you might want to check your research regarding marine angels because NO angel is a beginner fish Jim. And Bob Fenner gave the annularis a (1) rating. Thanks for your help anyway though bud. >>>Now Jay, I was just funnin' ya buddy. :) To each his own indeed. Having said that, no I actually don't need to check my research, I AM the research. I've been doing this for 20 years or so and have been keeping marine angels of many types all the while, and in my types of situations. My remarks are ALWAYS based in empirical data, not second hand info or unreliable accounts on the web or elsewhere. This is also why I'm already aware of P. annularis' tank requirements - look Ma, no Google! Number two - hardiness among angels is usually a relative thing compared to other genera, but they do range from EXTREMELY hardy, to quite delicate. You're also quite wrong that NO angel is a beginner fish. C. argi is as hardy as marine fish come, practically a damsel disguised as an angel, and so is C. acanthops. Both are small and easily accommodated by most hobbyists. For a hobbyist with a bit more experience and space? We have Holocanthus passer - you need to hang it on a clothesline to kill it. P. maculosus isn't far behind. As long as the keeper can manage the eventual size of the fish, and the aggression level, and has done enough research to know at least how large of [a] tank he needs, he should do just fine, even if he is a relative beginner. P. annularis ranks somewhere below P. imperator as a juvenile, although slightly older sub-adults often do quite well once acclimated. Scott Michael gives it a 3 on a scale of 1-5, and based on my experience I concur with his assessment where young juveniles are concerned. Good Luck, Jim<<<

Angels - part 3 I disagree, I don't think ANY angel should be used as a beginner fish. They need a good 3 or more months of good, established water. And as far as the tank size, common, it doesn't have to be as strict as your making it sound as long as you keep up with water changes and remove it before it outgrows the tank (if full size may be too big for tank). We're talking fish here not mammals (Orcas or dolphins). When someone purchases a dog, should they be saying that they're apartment is too small to accommodate it then (running, freedom, space, etc.) so they shouldn't buy it? lol. As long as you give your animal, whatever it may be, a good, happy, healthy, spacious home, I don't see a problem with it. Unfortunate you couldn't be of assistance, but thank you anyway :-) >>>'sigh' You can disagree Jay, and you can be wrong. You've just done both. You can't assign an arbitrary period of time and say "this is how long this or that fish needs" You need a stable system (not "established water") for ANY marine organism. This has NOTHING to do with how experienced the keeper is. Even a smart beginner makes sure his tank is stable before adding fish. Sure you can cycle a tank with certain fish, even an argi angel, but that doesn't mean it's wise. Angels are NOT by their very nature "a certain way" as a taxonomic group. They vary, many are delicate, a few are quite hardy. Some are huge, some are quite small. You cannot generalize, unless of course you lack sufficient experience with the genera involved to make an educated statement on the subject. Also, obviously you can keep a fish in a smaller tank as long as you remove it before it grows too big. By that logic you can keep a Queensland grouper on a 10 gallon tank. I assume the tank in question is for long term use, and that is the only safe thing to do lacking further information on your needs. C. argi or C. acanthops are as much a beginner fish as any other. You can argue that NO marine fish is a beginner fish as well. C. argi is as hardy as most damsels, but then again I've only been keeping them for 20 years so I'm just a young'n. Disagreeing is one thing, disagreeing without empirical data to back it up is quite another. If you think you know too much to be in need of this type of advice, by all means refrain from asking it. Peace Jim<<< FWIW, RMF agrees with both/all views here>>

Annularis Angel, James' go Hey crew, on the last question I forgot to mention in previous email: How do you feel about putting an annularis angel in a 65g FOWLR setup? He will be one of only about three other smaller fish, I really can't seem to find any angels I like that don't outgrow my tank and he's the smallest so I'm really considering him? <I've search a few sites and the Annularis (Blue Ringed Angel) can attain a length of 12'. They are considered hardy as far as the angel family. Myself, I would prefer the Blue Girdled Angel. They would fair a little better in a 65. Your tank size is slightly below borderline for any of these angels as they will grow. James (Salty Dog)> Thanks <<This is a VERY POOR choice IMO... James, see WWM, the web, references re. RMF>>

Blue Ringed Angel Hey Jim, blue- girdled angel? That's received a (3) rating and a "difficult maintenance" from everywhere I have researched. So, that angel is HARD to keep and dies often and mysteriously within a month or two. Why would I take my chances on something that has a poor and dismal survival rating. Are you sure you're knowledgeable about this particular thing and you should be replying to emails? And next time try to be a little more professional. <Jay, I probably was in err suggesting that to you. My basis for that lies with other people and myself who have kept them. Together we felt they were not that difficult to keep as far as angels go. No angel is easy to keep. But also keep in mind that all other parameters have to be strictly maintained. That is a 125 or larger, pristine water quality along with 10% water changes and an excellent diet. The tank also needs to be loaded with live rock and been set up at least six months. I'm wrong in suggesting that since I don't know your experience or skill level. Most newbies (if you are one) generally will not go through the work necessary to maintain this fish and therefore the fish would probably rate a three on a one to four level. I do try my best to give professional, informative and safe suggestions in my responses. But since I am human, the chance for error can exist. My apologies, and you should stick with the Blue Ringed Angel or a Koran which I would rate at a two level in degree of difficulty. James (Salty Dog)>

Xanthotis angel availability Hey guys, I have a question regarding the xanthotis, yellow ear or red sea angel? It's not in stock on any of the websites and I never see it at my LFS, are these too rare? More rare than the Goldflake? Where can I get a hold of one? Thanks, Jason <Kind of rare here due to cost, hauling from the Red Sea... more common in Western European markets... not considered a great beauty (I like it though). Same sites to try: Marine Center, Dr.s Foster & Smith, Marine Depot (.coms). Bob Fenner>

Goldflake Angels Thanks Bob. Are Goldflake Angels that hard to come across and where can I find one, that would be my second choice? Thanks, Jeff <Jeff, MikeB here, I find that Goldflake Angels can be affordable (found less than $100) but that depends on your budget. You can try your local fish store (they could order one if they don't have one in stock) or you could try online from one of the WetWebMedia sponsors. Good Luck. MikeB.>

Looking for Goldflake Angels Thanks Bob. Are Goldflake Angels that hard to come across and where can I find one, that would be my second choice? Thanks, Jeff <Not that hard to come by all year long... but not easy to collect in the wild (requires breaking up considerable amounts of Acropora)... Try DrFoster&Smith and Marine Center (.coms). Bob Fenner>

Goldflake Angels Thanks again Mike for all your time and researching.<No problem.> The reason why I am buying from saltwaterfish.com is because I was really happy with previous purchases from them (quality, price, etc.). And I also like what they say about their livestock, (going through quarantine, only selecting healthy specimens, etc.). I feel like I can trust them. The problem is, my local pet store told me that they can get if for me but for a five inch Goldflake it will be $300 and I won't even consider that or else I would rather see it before I purchase it like you said.<Yeah, that could sometimes be a problem.> So my only other option is to get it from saltwaterfish.com. Also, I chose this angel because I prefer a mid-sized angel, not a dwarf. In my opinion, the bigger ones are more interesting to watch. Two questions: Which dwarf angels are you referring to, and do you have any suggestions on any good places to contact in PA, DE, NY, or NJ to order rare fish and get a good price and be able to look at them like you said? Thanks again, Jeff <Jeff, I don't know of any place in those states, I am in Illinois. I was thinking of a dwarf pygmy angel or a Brazilian Flameback Angel. I know of some places that sell rare marine angels but they are online only. It seems like you have thought of the pro's and con's of your decision and you are making the best choice possible. That is a great process to be taking. Good Luck. MikeB.>

Considering a Clarion Angel Hey Bob, I was reading your articles on the Holacanthus clarionensis and I am really intrigued by this fish and would really like to find one. Plus the fact that it's good looking, not too big, and gets a (1) care rating from you. You state that "if you win the lottery, try this fish." About how much money are we talking for this particular fish, ballpark? Thank you Bob, Jeff <The going price is a few to several hundred dollars... you might try contacting MarineCenter.com re: http://www.themarinecenter.com/clarion.htm Bob Fenner>
Looking for a Clarion II Thanks Bob, I went to that marine center site and I like what I saw. Do you trust them to buy from? Are they're fish healthy and are they reliable? Thanks, Jeff <They are amongst the best. Sterling reputation. Bob Fenner>

G. watanabei Hello crew, I read the daily questions and answers and I think your site is awesome! Great job! <Hey thanks!> I have 55 gallon reef setup tank. My fish stock currently consists of: Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens), ocellaris clown (Amphiprion ocellaris) and Naso Tang (Naso lituratus). I was considering adding a Watanabei angel, but I am not sure of the tank size requirements. Also, would my Yellow and Naso tang would be too aggressive to it (they harassed a powder blue tang-Acanthurus leucosternon- and, before I could separate them, they killed him)? Furthermore, I was thinking that the fish load for this tank would be too much. Would the fish load be good enough to be able to add a G. Watanabei if I sell the Naso tang? Thanks in advance, Robertino <Whelp, I do think the tank is inadequate for all those fish even if you were to ditch one of the tangs because the angel grows to be 6'' and with the 8'' tang that makes for allot of fish in 55g I would upgrade to a 90g and you'd be good! Good Luck, LinearChaos>

Chrysurus angel... in a reef? hello there crew! I had a quick question about the Goldtail angel (Pomacanthus Chrysurus). Now I know no angel is "reef safe" but I have to ask...Can a Chrysurus be kept in conjunction with reef tank inhabitants? <Have seen one that was, long term... in a friend's large system whom you've likely heard of. Leng Sy of EcoSystem Aquarium> I know that some angels can get along in a reef such as Majestics and imperators. I mean I've seen it done before and was wondering if you think a Chrysurus could fit into the somewhat reef safe angel category. The tank will have mostly SPS corals with a very healthy fauna. It's a 70g tall tank (I know waaaay to small for this fish but will be upgraded to the likes of a 180-300g system by the time it grows out of its juvenile phase) with a 20g sump and 20-50g refugium. All I'm asking is "can it be done" if I take the right precautions (quarantine, healthy eating individual, small initial size, etc.)? Thanks for the help and quick response :) Chris AKA Fishtank <Can be. Bob Fenner>

Angelfishes for Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
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by Robert (Bob) Fenner