Treating Sick Fish In The Display Tank Is A Better Way?
Hey guys,
<Scott F here today>
Bob and Tony have some great books and you have a
great website and I agree 100% that a QT tank is
essential to having a successful reef tank, but the
advice you give about needing a QT tank for a
fish-only-tank (FOT) is ridiculous.
<Really? Ask the next aquarist that you meet from The Shedd Aquarium, Waikiki Aquarium, The National Aquarium, etc. if they feel that it's "ridiculous" to quarantine fishes in their fish only systems...I think that they will tell you otherwise. Quarantine is a standard procedure at all public aquariums, and should be part of every hobbyist's set of procedures. In my humble opinion, it's just something that you do, like changing water, etc. All part of the "price" of this hobby.>
If you have a FOT and it suffers an ick outbreak YOU TREAT THE WHOLE SYSTEM! Why, because all the fish have ick and the
tank has ick.  I read on your website a guy with a 90
gallon tank with 6 fish and you told him to pull all
the fish which were probably big in QT tanks and let
the entire 90-gallon system go fallow.
<That was probably me. I still believe in that technique. Is it hard- yes! Is it disruptive? Sure! But it works. The "easy" way is NOT always the best way!>
This advice borders on criminally insane!  
<Frankly, your point of view on this matter borders on criminally ignorant.>
I can see this poor guy who probably works a 40+ hour week, has a wife and kids and now spending precious time and money running
around setting up multiple QT tanks all over his house
(he would probably need at least 2-20 gallon tanks)
and siphoning them daily, etc.. for the next month for
no logical reason.
<Gee...I'm no different than anyone else: I work a 40 plus hour week, have a "significant other", two dogs, a mortgage payment, assist on WWM, and I still treat my sick fishes in this manner. Being "busy" is no excuse for not giving our animals the best possible care, as I am sure you are aware. The fish didn't choose us...We chose them. This is where I am coming from. Of course, I believe in quarantine of all new arrivals prior to placing them in my tanks, which I suppose is also a waste of time by your standards. I mean, it might entail buying an extra heater, extra tank, and another couple of minutes a day. Yep- just throw your new fish right in the tank, it's quicker, right? And don't bother feeding them, because there must be enough natural food in the tank to sustain them, and if you feed, you might have to change water once in a while...C'mon. Think about it for a bit.>
By using your advice, he stands a
much higher chance of losing the fish!
All he needed to do was treat his FOT with Copper and after 30 days
start doing heavier water changes to remove the
Copper.
<Hmm... what if you are treating fishes such as Centropyge angels, some tangs, and other species sensitive to copper? Do you just net them out and leave everyone else in the display while you "nuke" it with copper or Formalin? Oh, wait, that takes too much time, right? Another major concern I have with this "treat in the display" philosophy is that it encourages hobbyists to look to so-called "reef safe remedies" and other approaches of questionable value.>
You argue that the copper ruins the gravel,
dead rock, live rock (for a FOT) and decorations by
absorbing the Copper.
<Yes, it can...But by the same token, it is much more difficult to maintain a proper therapeutic copper level in a tank filled with rock and sand. And, as you know, it is very important to maintain a proper level of copper to assure an effective treatment.>
I agree, ahhhhh, SO WHAT!  Just don't ever use any of it in a reef tank anytime in the near future or better yet ever.
<And no one EVER switches over to reef tanks, right? Why develop these habits when you won't be able to use them in a reef or invert system...?>
My mother says keep it simple stupid and in this case you are making this "hobby" very difficult for a lot of people with advice
like this.
< I agree with keeping things simple. And, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on this, but I respectfully disagree. Steps such as "fallowing" a tank and quarantine ARE easier. And, quite frankly- no one ever said that the husbandry of animals captured from the most stable environment on earth and subjected to a variety of hardships from the reef to your store is easy. The hobby requires effort, observation, and research. When we render advice on WWM, it is from our experience; what works for us. You often see us state things like "..This is what I would do" or "...In my opinion.." All advice should be taken with  a grain of salt. What we are trying to do at WWM is provide hobbyists with objective (well, usually!) advice that helps them to develop conscientious husbandry techniques. That's our mission, and I will continue to render the best advice that I can based on my experience- what I know will work for the largest number of people. To give our readers anything less would be an insult, and a profound disservice to the hobby and animals that we all love.
Sorry, I really do love your website, but
this was just horrible advice.  I feel bad for this
poor guy. Nathan
<Nathan, I don't like to get into sparring matches with our readers, and I apologize in advance if I am being disrespectful! However, you need to be a bit more open-minded here. I'm sure that you are a talented and compassionate hobbyist, and it's a good thing that you state your views here. I simply think that you are not looking at the big picture here, and need to look at things from a different perspective. I wish you continued success in your hobby endeavors. Regards, Scott F.>

The Wisdom of Hospital Tanks (5/31/04)
Hey Steve, <Good Morning>
  Thanks for you reply, but you people seem to give some
VERY bad advice on treating Ick in a Fish-Only-Tank
(FOT)! <Bad advice is advice that is dangerous or is guaranteed to fail. Difficult advice, yes. Effective on the experience of many long-time SW fishkeepers, also yes. Bad, I beg to differ.>Why would you not put Coppersafe in a FOT??? <Because it may destabilize/kill the biofilter, because in may kill useful inverts such as amphipods. There really is no such thing as a FOT. There is other animal life, perhaps unseen, in there that may be worth preserving.>
I was reading a posting of a guy who had 4 fish with
ick in a 90 gallon FOT and he was advised to go buy
and set up several QT tanks to treat them when all he
needed to do was treat the whole tank! <There is disagreement on this, Our advice is only one opinion. Anyone dealing with a problem like this should seek out multiple opinions and decide which makes sense to them. In my profession, we call this "getting a second (or more) opinion.> My LFS owner
says it is stupid to have a QT tank for a FOT. <Too bad he has to resort to insults to justify his opinion.> He says
you only need a QT tank for a reef tank because you
can't treat it directly with Coppersafe when you can a
FOT. If you have a FOT and a fish gets ick you just
treat the whole tank! <This is not without risk.> He says Coppersafe will not hurt the other fish <as long as they are not copper-sensitive fish> and chances are they all have ick and the entire tanks has ick so treat the whole damn
thing. I hear your argument of contaminating the fake
corals, dead rock (or non-reef live rock) and gravel,
but as long as you never use it in a reef tank in the
future what is the problem! <Never say never. I paid over $500 for the live rock in my FOWLR--I want to be able to still use it if I convert to a reef.>
  I am going to send another posting on this subject and I hope you post it <we post everything that is not patently offensive> because I hate seeing bad <in your opinion> advice like this being given out. <This method works.> I can only imagine this poor guy who probably works a 40+ hour week and has a wife and kids spending all this time and money setting up all these QT tanks <A Rubbermaid tub costs $5, a cheap heater about $15 and an adequate filter $20 tops. I've paid more than twice this total cost for a single fish.>
for a FOT, how idiotic! <BTW, I work 50+ hours per week, have a wife and four kids, and take 24/7 calls one week out of every five. I have enlisted the assistance of my family with the aquarium. A couple of the kids are quite interested. I would not have embarked on this if I was the only one in the family who enjoys it.>
  Also, I did not say my LFS owner said it was "impossible" to overdose with Coppersafe, he said it was "hard" to overdose with it if you follow the directions, therefore, he said I did not need a Copper test kit <The test kit is also useful to make cure the level in the water is high enough to be effective, not just to be sure it is not toxic.> (By the way, my LFS owner maintains thousands of gallons of tanks in Greenville, SC including a 1,600 gallon system and over 3,000 gallons for the Greenville Hospital System so I think he knows a little about fish keeping!) <No doubt, but his calling our crew stupid says a lot about him too. I have never told a patient that another doctor who treated them was stupid or gave "stupid" advice, even when I thought they were. I avoid this because I was not privy to all of the information that led to the choice of that course of treatment. I merely make the case for why I feel a different course of action is warranted.> FYI, My Yellow Tang made a complete recovery using Coppersafe within two weeks in my QT/FOT and that was several months ago and he is doing fine so I am a fan of Mardel, Coppersafe, but I will check out Cupramine. <Glad to hear your Tang did well. I never impugned the quality of the product. You asked me if it was the best available and I simply stated that there is no proof either way and pointed out that Cupramine is also a well-regarded product.> I see it in the Dr. Fosters catalog and it sounds good and I like Seachem (they make Matrix!). <I too have been quite satisfied with Seachem products, and they enjoy and excellent reputation. Good luck with your tank. I hope all works out well. Steve Allen> Nathan

Sterilizing Hospital Tank
Scott & Marina...Thanks for all your valiant efforts, but I have to report that the Rainfordi didn't make it through the afternoon either...
<Sorry to hear that>
Still not sure whether it was Brooklynella or Amyloodinium, but it was fast and deadly...
<Either one of these kills so quickly...>
Time to disinfect the quarantine tank...What's the recommendation?  Bleach or just fresh water?  
Thanks.
<Personally, I'd sterilize the tank with bleach, rinse well, fill with fresh water and a heavy dose of dechlorinator, and then rinse again. That should do the trick. Sorry for your losses; hope things improve from here. Regards, Scott F.>

Setting Up A Hospital Tank
Hi
<Hi there! Scott F. here today>
I am beginning the process of setting up a QT to treat Ich - with Cupramine/ lowered salinity (to reduce stress). I am planning to transfer fish from 1.025 to 1.020 (by acclimatizing fish with drip line) - same PH, although will eventually reduce PH to 8.0 in QT once established (to minimize effects of ammonia). Is this ok?
<Many hobbyists feel that the lowered specific gravity is not a bad idea, but I like to keep things really simple. I just use water from the display tank. This keeps the fish in exactly the same water conditions during quarantine/treatment as it will be in once it settles back into the display. THAT is really the most stress-free method, IMO>
I intend to leave them there for 6 weeks (is exposure to copper for this long ok?)
<Personally, I don't think that such long-term copper exposure is a good idea, specifically with fishes such as Centropyge angels and tangs. Use the first couple of weeks as a treatment period, and the remainder as a "recovery time".>
so want to make sure that the filtration in my main tank is kept fed. The tank is 60 gallons, so my main question is, what do I need to add and in what quantity should I add it, to keep the bacteria alive.
<Well, here is an article that I wrote for WWM, outlining just how simple the quarantine process can be. These techniques can be adapted to setting up a treatment tank, as well. I hope that it will answer some of these questions and more:
http://wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm >
With regard to filtration in my QT, I am going to take a couple of bio-active sponges from my main tank filtration to try and minimize ammonia/ nitrite spikes. I will replace with new in the main tank so that they cycle whilst the fish are in the QT. Do you think I will also need to make water changes in the QT to keep ammonia/ nitrite at acceptable levels?
<Absolutely. Just settle into an easy-to-maintain routine. During the period of time that you are medicating, test for copper and replenish as needed to maintain a continuous, proper therapeutic dose>
Another question, any tips on catching a Mandarin? I have read that they are not as susceptible to ick as other fish, but don't really want to risk leaving in the main tank in case this fish is carrying the disease and reinfect the other fish when transferred back.
<Good thought. Catching these fishes does require some patience, but I have found that they are among the easiest of fishes to "bait" into a container or "net less" transfer. Just place a small plastic container in the tank with a small amount of their favorite food, and they will almost always work their way right into it. It's not always lightning fast (these guys don't do ANYTHING quickly, IMO), but it has worked many times for me. I would not subject these fishes to copper if they are not showing signs of the disease. Just keep them in a separate tank for observation during these period of time>
Also, I put two Jawfish in my tanks weeks ago but haven't seen them since. I think they must have perished, but if still there and hidden Im concerned that they may also continue to carry the disease. Have you any thoughts on this?
<Other than searching carefully, or potentially tearing up the aquascape, there are not too many options to verify if they are alive or not>
I really would appreciate any suggestions/ advise
Many thanks. Jason
<My pleasure, Jason! Hope that things work out well for your fishes. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Learning From A Total Wipeout (Pt. 2)
Hi Scott
<Hi there!>
What do you exactly mean by letting the tank fallow for 6 weeks?
<No fishes in the display tank>
Should I just continue with my weekly water changes and just not add any fish for the next six weeks?
<Yep!>
Regards,
Ziad Limbada
<Good luck! Scott F>

Temporary rock, coral and invert container 3/8/04
Hi Guys,
<howdy>
I've not had a response to the email I sent in a week ago; I guess it got lost in cyberspace.
<hmm... not sure. Will answer here though>
Could I have your thoughts on the questions below?
The fish in my reef have Itch. I have set up a very large separate hospital tank to comfortably hold and treat all fish (with copper); an Eheim canister has cycled and is ready to support the load.
<good moves... and do dose/test for copper twice daily to maintain therapeutic levels if you use it at all. Consider formalin and/or FW dips as well>>
To catch the fish I have to remove my corals, inverts and live rock, hold them in a container for a few hours while I transfers the fish, then rebuild the reef. Given the large mass of corals and live rock the ideal temporary container would have a big footprint and a shallow depth (to save me having to stack them on top of each other). My children have a hard PVC paddling
pool which fits the bill. Assuming I thoroughly wash the container first, only hold the rock and corals in there for a few hours, then throw away the water afterwards (i.e., do not put the water back into the display tank), is this likely to harm the rock or corals?
<no... it seems very reasonable... especially if the pool is older/used and not brand new (some release agents from plastic molds or anti-algae residues)>
If your answer is - "the paddling pool is unsuitable" - can I use a fresh water pond liner in the paddling pool to prevent the water coming into contact with the PVC pool?
<also fine if it is used/aged... but new must be rinsed with acid (vinegar usually) and rinsed again well with FW to prepare it>
I don't know if the freshwater PVC liner itself
would be dangerous to salt water life.
<plastic liners are quite safe>
Thanks for your help. Treating the Itch this way feels a bit scary, but I know it is the best way.
<yes... agreed. And be sure to always use the QT first in the future for anything new and wet coming in without exception (snails, corals, rock, sand, fishes, everything!). This will free you from such concerns largely>
My LFS is still saying "hold your nerve, your fish will recover from Itch on their own" ! I am glad he is my LFS and not my
Doctor !!
<wow... sobering>
Andrew Senior
<best of luck my friend. Anthony>

Temporary rock, coral and invert container 2/8/04
Hi Guys,
<Hi Andrew.  Sorry for the very slow reply.  I suspect you have had to act already.>
The fish in my reef have Itch. I have set up a very large separate hospital tank to comfortably hold and treat all fish (with copper); an Eheim canister has cycled and is ready to support the load.
<Sounds suitable.  I assume you mean "Ich" or Cryptocaryon.>
To catch the fish I have to remove my corals, inverts and live rock, hold them in a container for a few hours while I transfers the fish, then rebuild the reef. Given the large mass of corals and live rock the ideal temporary container would have a big footprint and a shallow depth (to save me having to stack them on top of each other). My children have a hard PVC paddling pool which fits the bill. Assuming I thoroughly wash the container first, only hold the rock and corals in there for a few hours, then throw away the water afterwards (i.e., do not put the water back into the display tank), is this likely to harm the rock or corals?
<I would be very surprised if you had a problem, particularly if you don't re-use the water, but do try to use at least 50% original water and make sure your new water is mixed at least a couple of days in advance.>
If your answer is - "the paddling pool is unsuitable" - can I use a fresh water pond liner in the paddling pool to prevent the water coming into contact with the PVC pool? I don't know if the freshwater PVC liner itself would be dangerous to salt water life.
<A pond liner is probably safe, but unnecessary.  If you have to buy the liner, it would probably be cheaper and more useful to buy several plastic totes.>
Thanks for your help. Treating the Itch this way feels a bit scary, but I know it is the best way. My LFS is still saying "hold your nerve, your fish will recover from Itch on their own" ! I am glad he is my LFS and not my Doctor !!  Andrew Senior
<I'm glad they aren't my LFS!  FWIW, I am not a fan of copper.  I prefer hyposalinity.  Do read up on WWM on disease treatment.  Best regards.  Adam>

Improvised "Hospital" Tank
First of all let me congratulate you on this excellent site, most of my doubts have been answered just browsing the Q&A's, but I'm not sure of the following:  I'm experiencing an Ich out break and planning on setting a separate tank for treatment of my live stock all together and at the same time, the Q tank that I'm using is only 11g and can house as much as 1 or maybe 2 at the same time, but I have 1 medium Blue Tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) 1 medium Sailfin Tang (Zebrasoma veliferum), 1 Blue Damsel, 1 Sebae Clownfish and 1 Maroon Clownfish, plus a Coral Banded Shrimp, a Camel Shrimp, 2 Bubble Tip anemone and 1 Long Tentacle
anemone (all this in a 95g tank).  The plan is to set the fish on a
separate tank and treat them while waiting (1 month) for the parasites to die after not finding hosts on the main tank.  The question is: What's the minimum  tank size that I should set up to accommodate the fish, and if a water fall BioWheel filter should be enough for them throughout this period. Thanks in advance for any advice. Alfonso Garza Monterrey Mexico
<Yep- sounds like your quarantine system is too small to accommodate all of these guys. I'd go for a large plastic garbage can or "Rubbermaid"-type plastic container. These types of containers are inexpensive, and hold large quantities of water. Filter and heat with a unit that is  sufficient for this sized container and bioload. A great solution for this type of situation! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Ick, heat and lights
Hey,
<Hi>
How long would you let a tank go fallow that had an
ick breakout? Is three weeks enough?
<I would aim for 4-5 weeks, just to be on the safe side (however, the normal ich cycle will last around 3 weeks depending upon the temperature of the aquarium.)>
I am having trouble with rising temperature. Early in
the   morning my tank is around 74 degrees. The lights
go on for 8 hours. At the end of the eight hours the
tank is 78 degrees and that seems like a big
temperature change to me. Are PC's considered heat
hogs?
<They can be if you do not have proper ventilation>
I have a 96Watt Coralife PC on a 40 gallon reef
tank. I have a glass top but I keep the lid cracked
and I have a hang on the back filter so the tank
should get enough air, but maybe not. What do you
think?
<Because the temperature seems to raise while your lights are on, I'm thinking this heat problem is due to the lighting rather than pumps creating extra heat. Adding fans to your canopy should help out a lot. If you have a glass lid over your aquarium, you may want to consider removing that because it's most likely trapping heat in your aquarium. May I ask what the room temperature is during the day?>
My friend wants to do a 20 gallon long mini-reef tank,
but he just wants mushroom corals. I have been
successful propagating mine and will "sell" him a few
rocks, lol. What lighting do you recommend if he is
just doing mushrooms, i.e. reds and blues?
<Whichever Kelvin temperature your friend likes best. Mushrooms will do quite well under a wide variety of spectrums.>
Can he get away with a 30" fluorescent or does he need to get a
24 inch, 65 watt, PC? The PC is more than twice as
much! It is also $19.00's more than a double bulb
florescent. Which of the three would you recommend?
<For best coloration and growth of the mushrooms, I would highly recommend the 65wt power compact.>
Thanks.
<Take Care, Graham.>
Nathan West

Where To Treat Sick Fishes?
I have a 150gal fish only tank. I recently discovered my heater had been unplugged for 3 days in which my temperature had dropped to 73 degrees maybe even lower. The tank inhabitants are as follows( 9" Porc. puffer, 6"emperor angel, 6"parrot, 3" Huma huma,5" cowfish ,4" yellow tang).
<Wow! That's a lot of big fishes! I hope that a bigger tank is coming down the road...>
All fish with the exception of the yellow tang are displaying ich. I do not have a large enough QT for all of these fish. I would like to know the best method of treatment considering my situation. Salinity is about 19 and temp 82. Thanks in advance.
<If it were me, I'd still utilize the "fallow tank" technique. I'd pull out all of the fish and treat them in a few large Rubbermaid  containers. This works great if you don't have a large enough tank for the fish to reside in during treatment. I am personally against treating fishes in the display tank, for a variety of reasons; not the least of which is the tendency for substrates and rock to absorb medications, and make it difficult to maintain a proper therapeutic dose. Go fallow! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Misc. marine treatment questions
Thanks for the advice, I'll prolly begin with some hyposalinity treatment in a Rubbermaid.  Should I use some water from my display tank, or make up completely new water for this?
<I tend to use new water for it.>
  And would any cheap yet decent filter work for this?
<Yes, any filtration is better than none>
In regards to the horseshoe crab...how long does it take them to get that big?...  
<Horseshoe crabs are relatively slow growers  It will take a couple years to get really large.-Magnus>

When should I stop?
Quick Question. At what point will lowering the specific gravity adversely
affect my biological filter media?  At what point will it stop to grow good
bacteria on the media.  Specific #'s would be great.
<NSW, near sea water conditions are best. That is, a specific gravity of 1.025 is ideal... and keeping this about here (topping off regularly, adjusting new water carefully) is very beneficial. For treatment with hyposalinity, any drop/change in spg will adversely affect nitrification. ANY. You should monitor aspects (ammonia, nitrite) daily, be ready with new water for dilution, perhaps chemical filtrants, pre-made biological filter material... if lowering spg, or raising it.>
         If you want some details leading up to this question read on, if not
thanks for your help!
        I have a 120 gallon main tank a 20 gallon quarantine and a ten gallon
hospital.  All tanks are biologically alive with all parameters in check.    
The reason I have all the tanks going is that I just got a majestic angel
about a week ago, I know what you are thinking but I did my research and realize
what I'm up against and took 7 months of going to my LFS to find the perfect
specimen.  The problem occurred when I introduced some Caulerpa to the main tank
for a treat for my powder blue after a quick rinse without quarantine," bad
move". I've been doing this for 5 years now, will I ever learn.  Within about 5
days the tang had some spots, I caught him gave him a dip then returned him
home. Three days later you know what.  Unfortunately I'm in it for the long haul
now at least 45 days.      
       So now I have three tanks set up and running. A ten gal hospital bare
bones with a powder blue in it which I'm am treating with hypo salinity and
formalin dips plus my own tank/filter creation which has a high enough turn over
rate to successfully filter out that pesky littlie protozoa but allows me to
segregate the bio filter. A 20 gallon quarantine tank with 8lbs of live rock,
live sand, tang haven algae two power heads and a whisper 30-60 which I
modified and put  bio wheels in to boost it's efficiency, one Chromis and a majestic
angel.  Did I mention I have now found a few spots on the angel?  
<Now you have>
So lets
break it down I have three tanks with ick and five fish I have to find a place for
to let the main tank go fallow for about two months.  Yes. I do have cleaner
shrimp but about all they're good for is making babies and stealing food from
the anemone, Its a good thing my two percula's are great protectors.  I have
a written protocol for all new fish but slipped on the algae.  I always use my
quarantine first then if the new fish have parasites I put them in my
hospital which I will establish 1 week or more ahead of getting a new fish by a sponge
filter from my main tank  then I can let the quarantine go fallow for a month
while I treat the new fish in the hospital tank without drugging up the water
then after one month they go back in the quarantine tank for another two
weeks. I always try to keep from using meds, except in dips, if I can at all avoid
it.  If there still alive after all this then they make it into aquarium
paradise, if not then at least I didn't contaminate my main display. I have about
a 85% success rate.  I thought I had a fool proof system. I guess the fool
didn't fallow the system.
                   Without the books of Bob F. and articles on this site I
wouldn't have ever stayed in this hobby.  You guy's are the Bomb!
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Fallow Tank Technique?
Hi Everyone,
A few questions for you tonight.   
<sure! Scott F. here today>
Question #1
I have a Kole Tang that developed ich in my Quarantine tank.  I immediately treated him with Cupramine.  He is starting to show signs of improvement but his fins are starting to look ragged and he has blotches on him.  All water parameters are fine.  Is it a good idea to treat with antibiotics or is his condition a result of the Cupramine?  Should it improve?
<I've seen this phenomenon before, and I believe that, in many cases, it is a result of copper concentration. Some fish just don't take well to it. On the other hand, secondary infection is a very real concern, so do keep an eye on this. I would maintain the manufacturer's recommended treatment course, unless the fish declines or shows signs of distress. You can always back the copper down if it is a problem. I would not, however, rush in with the antibiotics unless you are certain that the situation dictates.>
Question #2
My 135 has been ich free for about a month now.  My Flame Hawk, Fairy Wrasse & Firefish never showed symptoms.  Can these fish be immune from ich?
<Very unlikely, IMO>
If so, would it be safe to add fish in a few weeks or could the ich still be present?
<The Cryptocaryon protozoan can be present in sort of "dormant" phase in the substrate of the tank. It certainly can rear itself again at any time. This is why we recommend leaving the display tank completely fallow (without any fishes) for at least a month or so. This will "crash" the Cryptocaryon population for lack of hosts (your fishes!)>
I don't want to move these fish to a QT and treat them with copper.
<You may not have to treat them, but you should move them...>
Question #3
I just upgraded my skimmer from an Excalibur to an AquaC EV180.  After a week, my nitrates dropped from 25ppm to 10ppm.  Is this possible?  It is an amazing skimmer.
<It certainly is. A good skimmer can pull out a tremendous amount of dissolved organics from the water...That's why a good skimmer is so important for your system!>
Sorry so long.  Thanks for everything.
<No problem- that's why we're here! Regards, Scott F>

- Going Fallow -
Hey, you guys are the best... I really hope I am not taking advantage of your service (my second e-mail).
Let me first say that I have been reading about ich and related material like crazy over this last week, but still have a few unanswered questions.  I have decided to bite the bullet and take my fish out of my main aquarium to deal with ich (RRrrrr). Some questions...
Before I begin, let me make sure I am not overreacting... My fish have no "visible ich" on them.
Maybe 8 days ago I noticed ich for 3 days on y.tang. Only other fish is a clown.  SO... today, as with other days, no visible ich, but tang breathing a little quick, clown scratches self on sand on occasion, and tang on rock.  Is it just a matter of time before this stuff comes back full blown? <Odds are pretty good, but hard to say... depends on initial health of the fish, some other factors... possibility is always there.> SO... real question #1, should I proceed to QT/hospital tank for 5 weeks? <Would not be time poorly spent - worth your while if you really think the ich is coming back.> Or would you use hyposalinity? (or let it all go and monitor)? <I'm not a big fan of hyposalinity as a standalone treatment - I've tried in the past and used by itself, I've cured nothing with lower than normal salinity levels in the main tank. My favorite flavor of hyposalinity is a pH-adjusted, freshwater dip.>
My tank has LR and 2 snails.  
1) What is minimum size QT tank I can use for 1 tang and clown (does it matter?) <If the tank is small enough, I'm a big fan of the 20-long.>
2) On main tank, do I need to keep powerheads and skimmer running <I would.>
3) Can snails stay in main tank? <Yes.>
4) I first considered hyposalinity and have been lowering my tang SG.  It is at 1.018 right now-would you raise it back up to 1.025? <Slowly... yes to at least normal range - 1.020 would be fine.>
5) Yellow tang has some "shakes" on occasion.  Can this be caused by ich? <Not really sure - see all kinds of fish do this.>
Am=0, Ni=0, nAte=10, pH=8.2, sg=1.018**
6) Do snails need aeration? <Yes.> One is not responding well to current hyposalinity. <And they won't - would get the salinity back up to normal range.> Will put him in his own tank/bowl until all is finished.  Will Spirulina keep him alive? <Probably.>
7) Any other advice? <None that comes to mind - think you are on the right path.>
I appreciate all your help.   I am ready to react to what I believe is ich.  You guys know so much though, I would appreciate your opinion on what I have said before I go full force.  Thanks for you patience and time-it is really appreciated!  Jeff
<Cheers, J -- >

Fighting Disease With A Fallow Tank... (Scott's Reply)
My butterfly fish (saddleback) suddenly has visible white spots on the left pectoral fin. As yet, I don't see any such spots anywhere else on this fish, or on any others in the tank. 
<Hmm...It is possible that you're looking at a parasitic disease here...> 
I started treating the butterfly with Greenex in the main tank, figuring that the tank itself is now infected. 
<Yikes! Not something that we favor! Treatment should always take place in a separate treatment tank. Greenex does not have one of the best reputations out there-follow the directions to the letter.> 
Is there anything else I can do? The tank is a 55 gallon, and contains a small clown fish, a couple of other small damsels, and diamond goby, with a feather duster and a small hermit crab. 
<Correct to assume that they are all exposed to the possible illness, but I would not have treated in the main tank. Better, IMO, to use the "fallow tank" technique so often advocated by myself and my colleagues on WWM. Medications in the main tank are potentially problematic, IMO> 
Should I lower the S.G.? Raise the temperature (the tank is at 79 degrees)? 
<I would not use hyposalinity if you're keeping inverts...> 
Is Greenex effective, or should I remove the saddleback and treat in a quarantine tank with a copper based medication? 
<I prefer copper, or even freshwater dips as a treatment for parasitic illnesses. Treatment really should be done in the confines of a separate tank. Greenex is effective- but it can be problematic if overdosed, so again- I implore you to follow the manufacturer's recommendation precisely> 
Finally, what exactly does it mean to run the tank "fallow", and is it necessary here? 
<"Fallow" basically means "without fish" for our purposes. Running the tank in such a manner deprives the parasites of their hosts (your fishes!), thus reducing the population of parasites to a level where otherwise healthy fishes can resist following their reintroduction in a month or so...> 
Thanks in advance for your help. 
<A pleasure! Regards, Scott F> 

Everyone Out! (Letting Display Tank Run Fallow)
Good morning and happy holidays to all
<Same to you and yours! Scott F. with you today!>
I spent the last 2 days trying to find the answer and have failed. To make a long story short , my son decided to surprise me with 2 new fish , a Dragon Wrasse and a Flame Angel. I was away
on a trip and when I got home as you can guess everyone was dead ........ very depressing. No QT NADA , my son just didn't know, and I wasn't too hard on him, but I sat him down and explained why and the how's of adding fish.
<I'm glad you weren't to hard on him. It's all (unfortunately) part of the learning curve. Tragic though it may be, those fishes died while teaching your son a lesson that will prevent countless other future fishes from dying in  similar manner during his hobby "career".>
The survivors of velvet are my Purple Tang, who is in QT and not looking well. I have started treatment on him. OK, here is my problem: My tank is a 180 gal Oceanic Reef Ready, with 70 gal sump. Mag 12 for return. Lighting is 2 MH 175, 2 96 PC
white, 2 96 pc  blue , with 4, 4-inch fans to get rid of excess heat. 180 lbs live rock , 4 inch sand bed, 4 power heads, Euro Reef skimmer( awesome, awesome skimmer if you can afford one- please buy you will love it)
<See- an unsolicited endorsement! A great product!>
3 LTA doing very well , 12 crabs , Flame Shrimp , Arrow Crab (who sits in the biggest LTA, which is strange but true), 1 Brain Coral, 1 Flower Pot , 1 Cleaner wrasse who eats anything I
put in  the tank. I'm lucky that he eats , reading on here that most die.
<yep!>
and 2 Yellowtail Damsels, and of course, the Dragon Wrasse. I understand that I need to let the tank go fallow.
<I believe that it is the most effective technique to "treat" parasitic diseases in the display tank>
Last night, I drained the tank, and for the life of me, I
can't get the cleaner  or damsels or dragon out. They hide inside the live rock. I made such a mess and still came up empty handed, the 4 fish have no sign of velvet at all ,each are about 1 inch . can I leave them there? Or after 6 weeks  will the velvet still be in the tank? (dragon needs to go too he eats crabs) what would you do if it was your tank?
<Well- I know it is a pain in the rear- but you MUST get EVERYONE out of the tank in order for the "fallow" technique to work. Unfortunately, you will probably have to remove all (or almost all) of your rockwork to get these fishes out. Even though they are not showing signs of the disease, they have been exposed, and the very real possibility exists that they will develop the disease or transmit it to future inhabitants. The parasites will remain in the tank as long as there are fishes present to help them close their life cycle. Removing fishes deprives them of their hosts...And, undertaking this miserable task just once will reinforce to you the value of quarantine for all new fishes. No one I know of who has had to do this (myself included) EVER wants to go through it again!>
And, also- I couldn't find the answer to why do the power heads spit bubbles out every few min? And I mean a lot of them. Is there a brand that I can buy that won't do that?
<Probably some air getting sucked in by the powerheads, causing cavitation. Not a whole lot you could do, short of leaving them under water and "shaking them to possibly release any trapped air inside them. If they are located near the surface, they could be sucking in air.>
I have Aqua Clears.
<The old standard of aquarium powerheads. As good as any out there, IMO.>
Thank you for your time.
<My pleasure! Good luck with your tank's recovery! Regards, Scott F>

Everyone Out! (Pt. 2)
Will a 20 gallon tank with dividers work? It will need to house the Lemonpeel, two Percula Clowns, and a Domino Damsel. 
<It could work if not overcrowded...Just make regular water changes and feed carefully>
I also have a firefish but I heard that they won't get ich that easily and moving it will stress it too much. Is it safe to leave it in the display tank?
<I would not leave any fish in the display. you don't necessarily have to treat the fish if they are not showing signs of disease, but you do need to get everyone out for observation, and to allow the "fallow" period to be successful.>
Also, the Lemonpeel seems to be breathing from only one gill. The gill on the other side is beating much more slowly than the other one and the pectoral fin on the side with the slow gill is also not being used. On closer examination, the pectoral fin looks injured (it has a white film on, not really ich) but how does that relate to the slow gill. I have taken out the copper for the Lemonpeel and lowered the salinity slightly.
<Well, hyposalinity is thought by some to be effective for parasitic diseases, but it may not be effective on bacterial or fungal diseases. Do read on the WWM FAQs to find a condition that sounds similar to what your Lemonpeel has, and take measures for appropriate treatment>
The other fish are still in the display tank. I will move them as soon as I get all these facts straight. I plan on taking each fish
out of the display tank, treating it in the 10 gallon then moving it to the 20 gallon with dividers until all the fish, except the firefish, are in the 20 gallon. Also, is copper safe to use with the clowns.
<If you follow the instructions on the product label exactly, yes.>
I heard it wasn't safe to use with the angel which is why I stopped.
<That's a good move. Many Centropyge species do not do well with copper. Formalin-based treatments are preferred>
Once all the fish are in the 20 gallon, are water changes the best way to keep the ammonia down, or is there a better way.
<Water changes, careful feeding, and good filtration (no carbon, though, if you are going to use medication. Small daily water changes will work>
Sorry for asking so many questions but thank you for helping. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
<That's just fine! Stay the course on the disease treatment, observe carefully, and I'm sure that things will work out. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Everyone Out! (Pt. 3)
Well, everything seems to be going okay.
<Glad to hear it!>
I thought that moving the Lemonpeel to the main tank would be healthier for it since the ammonia won't keep getting so high so I decided to move him there and do hyposalinity on the entire tank. I moved the few pieces of live rock I had along with my inverts to another tank along with the Domino Damsel since he seems to be bugging the angel. The angel appears to be scratching but it is the exact same spot each time and he never scratches in a different spot, which I'm concerned about. His weaker
gill seems to have gotten better along with the fin as soon as I put him back in clean water.
<Good observation. Clean water can make a difference when treating maladies>
At this point, the salinity is at 1.019. I will continue lowering it. In your opinion, how far should I lower it?
Thanks.
<I'd shoot for 1.01, myself. Hope everything works out okay! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Everyone Out! (Pt. 3.5)
The Angelfish appeared to be doing very well, but unfortunately, it didn't make it through the night. I was really upset but I don't understand why it died, it was really active and was eating everything and looked so healthy.
<Some things just don't make a whole lot of sense. No matter what we are doing, we can't ever lose sight of the fact that we're dealing with living creatures, and that some things are beyond our control.>
My Clowns look like they are recovering since there are fewer white spots every day. The Domino Damsel was moved to the 10 gallon with the Live rock and inverts and it has these really big white blotches on it. It doesn't look like ich, it is much bigger. Is it another parasite that I should treat with copper?
<Hard to say. I wouldn't put a fish through a copper treatment (or any other treatment, for that matter) until you are certain what you are dealing with. My advice is to observe the fish carefully for the next few days. If the fish's health seems to decline, then it may become necessary to take action>
I moved him from the main tank because he began to pick on the other fish. I plan to move him into a new tank eventually, but I want him to get better first. Thanks for all the help you've offered me so far. I can't wait for all this to be over.
<I understand your frustration! Just know that you are doing all that you can, and that things will get better in time, with patience and your continued effort. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Cupramine and bacteria
Dear Bob,
<Joanne>
Thank you for your wonderful and informative web site. I have an
important and urgent question. Here is the situation. I have a 120G
marine tank. Some months ago I had some disease(s) wipe out most of my
fish - to date we could not positively identify the disease but I am
sure one of them was ich. I am 30 years in the hobby and I think I have
some experience - I hope - but it seems never enough. With the fish that
survived some ich did too but never serious. The fish and the ich seemed
to strike a balance of power and so it did not seem more pressing that
to keep the tank clean as usual.
<This happens... some sort of induced/acquired immunity/stasis>
Recently, because I wish to introduce more fish to the tank (I have two
puffers now) I decided that it was imperative to treat the tank with
copper. I chose Cupramine as it was most recommended and added it at the
recommended dosage. I was assured by the company and the dealers in the
local shops here in Montreal that it does not interfere with the
biological filtration. How can that be?
<Not... does interfere... may destroy entirely>
Since its introduction the ich
is almost gone with some new generations hatching every few days but in
decreasing numbers. My ammonia shot up but oddly not the nitrite which
is hardly measurable. Because I want to keep stress as low as possible I
chose to use a chemical agent called Prime to reduce the ammonia which
it does if I use it regularly. I also added some Cycle to replenish the
nitrifying bacteria but I am not certain if the copper has not
interfered with that too.
<Will>
My question is this. Did I kill the bacteria culture in my filter bed?
<Possibly, or at least sent them into a sort of "metabolic check">
How can I tell? At this time should I worry more about the ich or the
ammonia?
<Both, equally... as either could be cause for your puffers loss>
With many thanks and kind regards,
Peter Paul Biro
<Do monitor ammonia... consider other treatment modes in future. Will cc Ananda here (our puffer aficionado). Bob Fenner>

Re: Cupramine and bacteria
Thank you for your prompts response. I am trying to develop a strategy
now to deal with this situation as I do not see myself changing 60
gallons of water every day.
<No... unrealistic... Perhaps some "rotating" sponge filters or other pre-prepared biological filter media can be switched in, taken out and sterilized on a regular basis for the cycling issue>
Since my main tank became a QT with probably
no biological filtration I am thinking of removing the copper with
carbon to see if the stunted bacteria will come back. The ich is minimal
with just some 10-15 spots on an 8 inch puffer. The other is free of ich
and never had it. I am ready to quarantine them should it be necessary.
If the main tank does not return in a few days to normal ammonia levels
by itself I would keep the fish in a small tank until the main tanks
cycles again. If it does not, I am thinking of cleaning and disinfecting
it entirely and start anew. Does this sound like a good plan?
Peter Paul Biro
<It is A plan... you could pH-adjusted freshwater dip these fishes and move them to "ich-free" quarters and either allow the main/ich-infested system to go fallow (fish-host-less) for a month or more... or "nuke it" (utilize a bio-cide like bleach) and start it again... Bob Fenner>

- Fallow Long Enough? -
Hi,
I recently had an Ich and a fungus outbreak in my tank that wiped out all my fish. I tried to treat them in a hospital tank but they died anyway.  The tank had been running 8 months.  I let the tank run fallow for 2 months.  I recently purchased a yellow angel and put him in my quarantine tank for 10 days.  He had 2 small white spots on his fins which disappeared after 2 days.
3 days after I transferred him into the 90 gal. tank, I noticed one of his fins was slightly torn and it looked white around the torn edge.
He is the only fish in the tank, there are also 2 feather dusters, several Hermit crabs, emerald crabs, an anemone, a peppermint shrimp and several snails.
My question is this: can parasites or fungus diseases last in a fallow tank for over 10 weeks? <Not usually... the torn fins are probably just a representation of stress.> Or are the invertebrates harboring the parasites? <Doubtful.>
Any suggestions? <Give it some time and keep it under observation.>
The fish is not scratching on rocks and is otherwise eating normally. <Sounds good.>
Thanks,
Mark  T
<Cheers, J -- >

- Fallow Long Enough? Follow-up -
I will remove the fish again to the treatment/ quarantine tank. His spot disappeared then came back 2 days later.  He now has 3 small white spots on him. <If this is truly only three spots, then I think you are over-reacting. Caution is a good thing, but repeated removal and treatment will provide more stress than perhaps leaving it be.>
Do I need to go without fish in the main tank for another 2 months, or longer? <Well... now I'm curious, just how bad a problem do you think you have? Things may not be as bad as you think.> Is there anything else I can do to the main tank to eliminate the parasites? <Tear it down - start all over again. I doubt you want to do that. Fallowing the tank is a sure fire way to eliminate 99% of parasites, but even that one percent can come back to haunt you if the fish are over stressed for whatever reason. Please read here for some background:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm >
I lost a Fan Worm over the weekend, can they or my other invertebrates harbor parasites? <They 'can' but it's not typical and the parasites that would infect a fish will not cause problems to a fan worm. This may be indicative of other issues in your tank.>
I will increase the temp to 80F degrees; this was probably my mistake in running fallow.  I have been running the tank at 74 F for the last 2 months which may have allowed the parasites to survive longer. <It certainly slows down their metabolism.>
I have heard that the Mandarin fish eat parasites, and have a thick slime protection that prevents infestation. <Nope - myth - all fish have a slime coat that protects them to some extent, but neither of these is a good reason to get a mandarin goby. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mandarins.htm
Cheers, J -- >

- Length of Fallow Tank Stage, Yet More Questions -
Hi,
I followed your advise and left the angel in the tank.  His condition appeared to improve completely for a few days, all of the cysts had fallen off.  Then yesterday I noticed that he had more of the small white (1mm) marks on the side fins again. The cysts appear to attach for 2 or 3 days then fall off.  They seem to appear in the morning, as if they attach themselves to the fish while it is sleeping under the rocks. The fish is still eating well and is not scratching against the rocks.  I am concerned that the parasites are now multiplying in my tank based on the number of white dots on the fish. Would you still recommend not removing him for medication? <Well... it sounds to me like the problem is in the tank. Removing the fish for treatment would solve only half the problem. A few spots in the morning isn't really a big deal... you are correct to be suspicious of the overall number of parasites... are they reproducing... it's hard to know for certain. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm >