Ich and Salt - Thanks! And BGA FW situations  - 11/02/06
Hi Robert,
<Jason>
Don't know if you remember but you answered some questions for me back in the early summer about curing ich with salt, and I'm happy to report that method worked flawlessly - haven't seen it since and didn't lose any fish to it.
<Ah, good>
Now I have another problem that I can't seem to find a satisfactory answer to after combing the internet and WetWebMedia over the last week.  From what I've gathered, I believe the problem to be "Cyanobacteria" (blue-green "algae") - my plants, rocks, and driftwood have been overrun with a coating of black slime, and periodically I get patches of a very bluish color in the gravel (most visible when it occurs along the glass though I'm sure it's in the middle of the aquarium too).  I guess my first question is - in your opinion does this sound like what it is?  In some descriptions I read people describe it as a flaky substance - it's not flaky in my aquarium, in fact it's very hard to scrub off the hard substrate and impossible to remove from plant leaves without destroying them.
<Does read like BGA>
I do a 25% water change once per week where I vacuum the gravel (as I've always done before the problem), and as needed I remove leaves as they get taken over, and scrub rocks and wood periodically when it starts to coat a significant part of them, but it always comes back full-force within a few weeks.  I also do not overfeed the tank - I feed once in day, a moderate amount they can eat quickly, and not every day - sometimes once or twice every two or three days (logic being in nature food comes and goes, it's not on a regular schedule).  If it helps, my current stock is 3 swords, 2 platys, 4 Corys, and 2 small-medium angels in 37 gallons.  The idea is the angels will feed on the fry of the livebearers to keep it in control (one of the swords is a small juvenile that was big enough to get away before the angels were added - haven't seen any fry since...[evil mad scientist laugh].
<Perhaps related>
The sad thing is, after I cured the ich problem, and before this started, the plants started booming, and now that this has set in they are completely stifled. (Let me note here my ammonia/nitrite readings have been 0 since the tank cycled 5 months ago, and nitrate is low given the regular water changes.)  In removing leaves, new ones don't come in fast enough and now the plants are losing ground to this instead of gaining, and I'm considering ripping them out.
Here's another factor I learned about our water here, unfortunately after adding angelfish.  Our tap water has a seemingly "unbreakable" pH of around 7.5.  By that I mean I've come to realize that the "pH 7" products I used to add during water changes caused only a temporary drop, never lower than 7.2.  After getting angels I tried giving up on those products and adding only "pH drop" products to try and bring it down closer to 7.  That failed too (even after months, after the "balancers" from the "7.0" products had plenty of time to be flushed out), to the extent where adding even "massive" doses would not drop it past 7.2 and it would always rebound to around 7.4/7.5.
<Mmm, this pH range should be fine for "domestic" angels... are quite flexible with many successive generations having been produced in captivity>
By "massive doses" I mean if the recommended dose said add 1 tbsp/40 gallons and "more as needed", I could add 3 tbsp over a few days to my 37 gallon tank and could not break the 7.2 barrier.
<Please read on WWM re... Such changes should be done outside the system, through water changes... Better to start with "cleaner" water... Reverse osmosis most commonly... mixed with some straight source water...>
Since most of these products contain sulfuric acid and I don't know what kind of side effects the sulfur can have I abandoned that too.
<Mmm... actually quite rare to have H2SO4 in commercial products in the States... too quick a proton donor...>
I did lose a couple of angels early on I got from a major chain over this time but the second batch I got from the LPS have been hanging in there for a few months in the unaltered tap water pH and I'm leaving it that way for now (and won't buy any more if these die until I figure this out).  I know a stable high pH is probably better for them than one that fluctuates.
<Yes!>
Anyway, that was a long way of saying - do you know if the water conditions I have are favoring the Cyanobacteria/black slime problem?  (and secondarily, is it better to leave angels alone that are in a 7.5 pH and seemingly happy or...)
<Mmm... well Cyano can/will proliferate given conditions that don't favor other photosynthetic life... An abundance of nutrients, too little intense lighting of useful wavelengths, poor circulation/aeration... These are covered on WWM as well.>
Third and final question - I decided today to purchase a canister filter.  After much debate and hearing extremes between people that live by the Eheim and people that knock the cheaper Fluval, I decided to go with the Filstar XP2 which most claim to be very reliable.  Given my conditions, they offer media to soften water, and there are peat media out there (not Rena brand yet) that can be added to lower pH.
<Again, reading... and starting with less solute laden water...>
My question is, in your experience, do you think softening the water could potentially help with this Cyanobacteria problem I have?
<Not the route I would go, no>
If nothing else I hope it will make the water less stressful on the hardy angels that are still around.  What about peat pellets as a two pronged question - could this help as well, and given how resistant I've described my water to pH lowering, can this help counter that significantly using a canister setup or if adding chemicals directly to the water doesn't help is it foolish to expect peat can help at all?
<http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwalgcontrol.htm
and the linked files above>
With the canister I'm going to take it easy and not attempt to change any parameters too much too fast of course (I'm going to leave my hang-on running too for a couple of weeks).  For instance, their "softening" pack claims to lower "general hardness" but doesn't mention pH on the website, so I'm cautious that adding that plus peat could drastically change conditions.
Thanks again for any help/advice,
Jason
<Keep reading my friend. Bob Fenner>

2-part question - pH and BG algae   10/2/06
I've read through the FAQs and researched other sites and find pieces of answers but nothing specific about dealing with my water conditions.  Hope you're not too sick of dealing with these types of common questions but here it goes...
<Hi there - this is Jorie.  No worries, we are here to help and don't mind answering queries at all...otherwise we wouldn't do it!>
My tank is about 5 months old, 37 gallons, fully cycled and stocked now with swords, angels, and Corys (4, 3, and 5).
<Sounds nice.>
It is heavily planted with "sword plants" and the lettucy stuff that grows out of control and which I thin (and am thinking of getting rid of).
<Trying to think of what the second plant could be - does it grow from a bulb? Tall and thin? Aponogetons are quick growing bulb plants, and some produce wavy leaves that I suppose could be described as lettuce-like...>
Once the tank was fully cycled, for about 2 months, the plants really thrived and boomed in growth, especially the sword plants which I like b/c they are attractive looking.  Unfortunately, about 2 months ago a real problem started to develop with blue-green algae (Cyanobacteria).  Started coating everything with a black slime, and the plants are obviously suffering from it.  I've been doing a lot of physical removal (scrubbing rocks, wood, clipping leaves that are particularly bad) which has helped some but it's a losing battle.  I regularly change 10 gallons per week out of the 37 gallon tank (from the day I set it up), but I fear that part of the problem is just that our tap water is dismal around here (Arlington, VA) for this kind of thing - lots of calcium carbonate and iron.  I siphon filter my gravel every time I change water and for the most part the water I siphon is clear so there isn't a lot of debris on the bottom.  
<Phosphates are a usual culprit for algae growth - have you checked both your tap water and tank water for phosphates lately? I suspect you will find a very high reading.  In the tank, I like to use PolyFilter filter media in addition to carbon to aid in phosphate removal.  Also, as you pointed out, the tap water could be the problem...you may want to look into a RO/DI unit (reverse osmosis/de-ionized) - that will rid your source water of all the "nasties".  Of course, it's a bit of an investment - I bought mine from www.airwaterice.com and I believe it was around $200 for a 3-stage unit.  Alternatively, if you don't have other tanks, you could look at a cheaper alternative made Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (I think) - called a "Tap Water Filter".  It's basically just a de-ionizing unit. It's around $30.  You do have to replace cartridges in both types of units - in the RO/DI, about once per year; for the DI only, probably after about 30-50 gal.  That's where the bigger RO/DI ends up paying for itself.  If you go this route, be sure to remember to add back electrolytes and necessary trace elements, as well as add something to raise the pH from about 5.0, with appropriate products (I like Electro-Right and pH Adjust)>
From what I've read, I think our tap water conditions are ideal for BG...
<again, check phosphate levels>
...and I don't think increasing water changes is going to help much.
<Sounds like you are already on top of water changes - keep up with what you are doing, but I agree, more likely won't help.  Be sure not to overfeed your tank, and perhaps try giving the plants a "siesta period" for an hour or so without light.>
  I'm wondering if you have any advice.
<See above.>
While I'm fine with scrubbing stuff off of the physical decorations, that's not really feasible with the plants b/c the Swordplants grow extensive root mats, and to pull one up means uprooting everything and unless you trim the roots way back after you get them up, you'll never get them under the gravel again, and trimming the roots (I tried this on one plant) seems to cause a big dieback.
<Yes, it is one thing to scrub rocks and such, but you really can't do this with plant leaves without damaging/killing them.  If you find leaves that are completely covered with the algae you describe, do remove them at the stem with a scissors - the will eventually suck out the nutrients from the roots that the healthy leaves need.>
  The other thing I notice too though is that the black algae is starting to disappear in "blocky" patterns on some leaves, while it is taking over others (so no net gain), so I'm not sure if once a leaf gets coated it is a death sentence or if it can be reversed if the leaf continues to grow.
<Not really - all you can do here is control the algae growth to begin with. I think if you get your phosphate levels under control and change your source water (the latter likely helping with the former substantially), you will see a *big* improvement.  I don't see any information about your lighting conditions - if you have too much light, that can also cause algae growth.  Also, direct sunlight on the tank will cause algae. A few additional things to think about...>
Here's another clue about our water, and a second question I haven't found a good answer for.  It seems to be loaded with calcium carbonates (or other substances that cause a high pH).  Our pH is about 7.5 out of the tap, and it is extremely stubborn.  I've tried "pH 7" products that will lower it very briefly then it goes right back even with multiple treatments.  Then I decided that logically those products also contain buffers to raise it if it needs it, so since it's not lowering it, then it must only be adding to whatever buffer is already in the water that keeps it up as well.  So then I started pH lowering products, and same thing - they will lower it to about 7.2 for a day or two, but it always creeps back up, and this is with multiple doses to the point where I'm afraid of taking it to far (seems these products tend to contain sulfuric acid, so I'm not sure what the sulfur content can to the fish if it gets too high).  For example, it may say add one 1 and 1/2 tbsp per 40 gallons, and I can do that 3 times over several days and it won't drop past 7.2 and will still rebound.  The amazing thing is that while my first batch of angel fish died that I got from Petco, the batch I got from my local pet store have been surviving well, seemingly very happily for awhile now in these conditions.  I know this pH is too high for angelfish and when I discovered how bad this problem was I decided I wouldn't get any more but the angels I have now are alive and well.  
<I'm glad you are trying to provide ideal conditions for your fish, but in reality, a difference between a pH of 7.5 and 7.0 is not that bad.  It is much more important to keep the pH stable, and by adding the various products you reference above, it seems as though you've got a good deal of fluctuation going on - that's bad.  In all honesty, I'd say leave it alone.  Fish are fairly adaptable, but do not tolerate changes in pH levels and the like.  Keep in mind, also, that if you invest in either a RO/DI or DI unit, your water will come out at around 5.0 pH, and you'll have to add a chemical adjuster to raise it.>
Anyway, I guess my second question is - is there anything you can do for water that refuses to drop in pH like mine (besides buying a mini-treatment plant to take out the alkalines?)  Is it even worth putting in "pH drop" every week to keep it around 7.2 or can the sulfur or whatever side ingredients in these acids accumulate and cause harm themselves?  
<Again, you aren't dealing with a huge change (i.e., between 7.5 and 7.2), and I'd just leave well enough alone.  Keep in stable and the fish will likely be OK.  Save the money you spend on the chemicals for a nice RO/DI unit - I believe that is the best solution for both of your problems!>
Back to my first question - does the pH problem (and underlying factors) have something to do with the blue-green algae problem?  Again, the plants absolutely thrived for awhile so my gut is that they got big to a point where a balance was tipped and they started taking so much of something out of the water that let the BG algae thrive and now they're losing.
<It's the "underlying factors" that are contributing...likely the phosphate in the source water.>
Here's another site that is interesting and if it were correct it may suggest my problem may root in the fact my nitrates aren't high enough for the levels of phosphate in my aquarium:  http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm.  Any experience with this?  Since the fish don't seem to be suffering and it's an aesthetic problem I hesitate to tinker with the nitrogen levels.  
<I haven't seen that site before. It seems to be well researched, but if it were me, I'd start with just looking at the phosphate levels first.  I was battling all sorts of algae, including blue/green and black beard in my freshwater planted tank, and once I switched to the RO/DI and added the PolyFilter, the problem virtually resolved itself.  Oh, and one more thing - you say your tank is well-stocked with plants...that's very subjective, obviously.  What I can tell you is that if you have so many nutrients for the algae to thrive on, you likely have room for additional plants - they will use those same nutrients, grow, and aid in starving out the algae.>
Sorry for the long message but any help is appreciated - if you do choose to answer feel free to post on a FAQ on your site.  Thanks and love your site.
<I appreciate all the info. you provided me - helps me better diagnose a problem...no worries on the length of the question, my friend! You will receive a return e-mail, and we will be posting this answer on the daily FAQs as well...>
Jason
Arlington, VA
<Jorie, Aurora, IL.>

Re: 2-part question - pH and BG algae: PART 2  10/03/06
Jorie, thanks so much, and I take it as good news that so many of my questions could possibly be addressed with a single solution - a RO/DI unit. I have heard of them vaguely so the advice is appreciated, I will look into it.  As you say, $200 is not bad (especially if you only have to replace a cartridge once per year), and would easily pay for itself given that a "large" bottle of pH drop is $7-$10, and I'd rather take out the problem than just keep adding more chemicals.
<Agreed.  Do look at www.airwaterice.com - for the price, I don't think you'll find a better unit.  And, their customer service is outstanding.>
I know that you're right that stable pH is better than fluctuating pH, even if it's high.
<Within certain limits, of course...>
I'll be wary of the pH drop if I get a RO/DI unit, though I'd practically celebrate to see the pH of my water go below 7 - not that I want it to, just that I'm surprised our water is so pH resistant to anything I've tried.
<LOL!>
I do have one question - if the RO/DI unit will drop the pH around 5 and it's necessary to add something to keep it up, then won't the unit continue to remove whatever you add?  In other words, will it be the reverse of my situation now where I'll have to keep adding a buffer to keep the pH up instead of down?  5 is pretty severe so that's definitely of more concern than 7.5.
<If I understand your question, I believe the answer is that the RO/DI unit is attached to your faucet (i.e., source water), not the tank itself.  So, the water is only filtered once in this way - I use a 5 gal. jug to collect the water after it has been filtered, then add 2 tsp. of ElectroRight, 1 tsp. of pH Adjust - I'm left with 5 gal. of water with a pH of precisely 7.0.>
Anyway, the "lettucy plant" is Hygrophila difformis (maybe lettucy wasn't the best adjective) - an invasive out in nature that doesn't need much light, so it's no wonder it does well in tanks.  
<Hmmm, not familiar with this - I will look into it, though, perhaps it can live in my slightly brackish water tank where not much plant life survives...>
I didn't seek it out - just got one batch in the variety I bought starting out figuring I'll see in time which do well and which don't in the light I have.  It took over very quickly though, and there are more attractive plants I have that grow a bit more slowly so that's why I'm thinking of getting rid of it.  It can look good in its own right, but you need to keep trimming the tops off, planting them, and discarding the lower parts.
<I had the same problem with Aponogetons - they grow very readily under regular output lights, but require frequent trimming.  Look into the various anubias plants - they don't require much light at all and are slow growing.  Very low maintenance in this regard.>
Lighting - I'm not a plantophile...
<...love this word!>
...and just have the factory fluorescent hood, but one thing I liked about my corner model tank is that it came with a dual-bulb hood, so I think that is why some of the plants I have that I read
are doomed to fail are actually doing quite well.
<How many gallons did you say this tank is? I, too, have a 44 gal. "corner" tank - really a pentagon in shape.  I found that I needed to upgrade to a power compact (PC) fixture, since the tank is so deep.  Even so, I can only plant low-mid light plants...>
Anyway, thanks again, and if I get an RO/DI unit I'll give you an update and let you know if it works against the BG problem.
Jason
<Hope I've helped - Jorie>