Fish Wasting Away /RMF's try 12/10/14
Hello,
<Samuel, greetings>
I've lost a number of fish to something in my tank and I am at a loss
for how to treat it.
<Have scanned this msg. and am going to ask Neale Monks here to respond
separately>
The first symptom seems to be spitting out of food rather than
eating it. Eventually the fish will become lethargic, start hiding and
stop trying to eat at all.
<Good clues. What comes to mind up to this point is either a dire
environmental issue or a microbial to Protozoan issue>
I have been removing to treat or euthanize when I notice the spitting
behavior but new infections continue. A few fish
have recovered from it and it has only, as far as I've noticed, affected
a few species. All of my Celebes rainbowfish have been affected with 66%
mortality of the adults and my Endler's have been dying at a higher rate
than that. Fry/young fish seem more affected as I lost all but 2 of a
batch of ~15 Celebes fry. Species which haven't had any casualties
include Pseudomugil paskai, threadfin rainbowfish, Apistogramma borelli
and a blue ram.
The tank is a 50g acrylic. Heavily planted, CO2 injected and
fertilized (CSM+B, K2HPO4, KNO3 and K2SO4).
<To browsers; always a poss. of issues w/ CO2 use, inorganic fert. use>
NH3/NO2 0ppm and Nitrate varies between 5 and 20ppm. It's been set up
for about 6 months and was an upgrade from a
29g.
The trouble started, as far as I can tell, back in early October with
the addition of 5 Habrosus cories. I had lost 2 during quarantine but I
chalked it up to stress as both were emaciated when I got them and they
died the first couple days. About 3 days after adding the cories I
noticed one of my female Endler's was spitting food out instead of
eating it. I left her in the tank for a few days until I noticed one of
my Celebes and another endler showing the same behavior. The Celebes was
isolated and treated (still died) and both Endler's were euthanized. On
10/13, when I noticed additional infections
<... what came/comes first... the symptoms or cause/s?>
I treated the tank with Metronidazole (3 treatments of 500mg every other
day). At the end I performed a large water change and
added active carbon to help remove any remaining medication.
<Good>
After a few days additional fish showed symptoms and the 2 Celebes I
treated in quarantine showed little signs of improvement (one died
during treatment, the other was still not eating, even when presented
live food). On 10/23 I treated with Kanamycin (3 treatments of 1440mg
every other day). The remaining Celebes seemed to respond well to this
treatment. At this point I introduced a few swordtails from another tank
and the infection decimated them. All were infected and only one
recovered. I continue to euthanize
Endler's that spit food, don't show interest in food or look thin after
a heavy feeding. My best guess was that this is a flagellate but I fear
it might be fish TB (since the Kanamycin seemed to help some fish).
Thanks for any help you can provide and for this great resource you have
available.
<I suspect something simple yet profound is amiss here...
Really, just too little O2, perhaps w/ too much CO2. Do you monitor
hardness? Do you have access to dissolved oxygen test gear? Ask your LFS
re. We will solve this mystery.
Bob Fenner>
Fish Wasting Away /Neale's go
12/11/14
Hello,
I've lost a number of fish to something in my tank and I am at a loss
for how to treat it. The first symptom seems to be spitting out
of food rather than eating it.
<Quite often goes along with some environmental stress.>
Eventually the fish will become lethargic, start hiding and stop trying
to eat at all. I have been removing to treat or euthanize when I notice
the spitting behavior but new infections continue. A few fish have
recovered from it and it has only, as far as I've noticed, affected a
few species.
All of my Celebes rainbowfish have been affected with 66% mortality of
the adults and my Endler's have been dying at a higher rate than that.
Fry/young fish seem more affected as I lost all but 2 of a batch of ~15
Celebes fry.
Species which haven't had any casualties include Pseudomugil paskai,
threadfin rainbowfish, Apistogramma borelli and a blue ram.
The tank is a 50g acrylic. Heavily planted, CO2 injected and fertilized
(CSM+B, K2HPO4, KNO3 and K2SO4). NH3/NO2 0ppm and Nitrate varies between
5 and 20ppm. It's been set up for about 6 months and was an upgrade from
a 29g.
<Switch off the CO2 and fertiliser system. The plants
will be okay for a few days/weeks thusly. Why? Because sometimes CO2 can
be dosed too high, and this will cause serious stress to the fish. It's
easy enough to discount this problem by switching the CO2 system off for
a few days and watching what happens. As plant growth will slow down,
fertiliser will be redundant, so you can switch that off too. Again,
they're a variable that we want to discount before moving onto other
possible issues.>
The trouble started, as far as I can tell, back in early October with
the addition of 5 Habrosus cories. I had lost 2 during quarantine but I
chalked it up to stress as both were emaciated when I got them and they
died the first couple days. About 3 days after adding the cories I
noticed one of my female Endler's was spitting food out instead of
eating it. I left her in the tank for a few days until I noticed one of
my Celebes and another endler showing the same behavior. The Celebes was
isolated and treated (still died) and both Endler's were euthanized. On
10/13, when I noticed additional infections I treated the tank with
Metronidazole (3 treatments of 500mg every other day). At the end I
performed a large water change and added active carbon to help remove
any remaining medication. After a few days additional fish showed
symptoms and the 2 Celebes I treated in quarantine showed little signs
of improvement (one died during treatment, the other was still not
eating, even when presented live food). On 10/23 I treated with
Kanamycin (3 treatments of 1440mg every other day). The remaining
Celebes seemed to respond well to this treatment. At this point I
introduced a few swordtails from another tank and the infection
decimated them. All were infected and only one recovered. I continue to
euthanize Endler's that spit food, don't show interest in food or look
thin after a heavy feeding. My best guess was that this is a flagellate
but I fear it might be fish TB (since the Kanamycin seemed to help some
fish).
<Fish TB is essentially incurable, so medication won't have any great
impact. Wish it did! I'd back off from adding more medications before
checking the environment thoroughly. When many fish die, and they all
shows signs of stress, then the environment is surely the top
possibility to consider. Rapid pH changes (common where CO2 is used
inappropriately) cause many/all of the symptoms you describe. Very rapid
plant growth without considering their oxygen demand at night is another
common factor. What happens is we often minimise water circulation to
avoid driving off the CO2, but during the night plants use up more O2
than they produce (they do
the reverse by day) and they can lower the oxygen content of the water
substantially. This is especially so if organic decay (dead leaves for
example) is present in substantial amounts. So: try minimising CO2 for a
few days as outlined above, whilst also boosting O2 as much as you can,
e.g., with an airstone at each end of the tank. See if the fish perk up.
Look to see if the fish are skittish, moving their gills rapidly, or
staying ostentatiously close to the surface/areas of strong water
movement -- all can be signs that the O2/CO2 balance in the tank isn't
right.
Malayan Livebearing Snails crawling up the glass by day is another
telltale sign -- they're veritable miners' canaries for this! While I'm
not ignoring your idea that disease could be to blame, I'd still
discount environmental stress before anything else. If you've done
antibiotics and anti-Protozoans already to no good effect, then the
"usual suspects" -- Velvet, Whitespot, Finrot, etc. -- can be
discounted, then what's left -- Fish TB and other Mycobacteriosis-like
infections -- are pretty much untreatable. So if that's the situation
here, all you can do is allow the disease to run its course until what's
left are the fish whose immune systems have defeated
the bacteria. But even here, it has to be stated that Mycobacteriosis is
as much environmental as anything else, so it's likely something else is
going on as well, even if a bacterium species is to blame.>
Thanks for any help you can provide and for this great resource you have
available.
<Good luck, Neale.>
Re: Fish Wasting Away 12/20/14
Hey Crew,
<Samuel,>
I took your suggestions and messed around with my CO2/fertilizer
among other things. One good indicator is that my MTS spend all day in
the sand/substrate.
<Indeed. See them up the glass with the lights on, and something is
amiss.
If they're happy in the sand without showing their little faces, then
all is well.>
My Ramshorn also haven't been hanging out around the top of the tank. As
a precaution I dialed my CO2 back a little and refilled my drop checker
(showing greenish blue before and after). I also had my CO2 off during
both medication regimens, which were also sans ferts. Additionally I had
my CO2 off for 4 days during thanksgiving when I was out of town. My CO2
shuts off at the same timer my lights do. To improve dissolved oxygen I
started running an airstone at night. I neglected to mention I also dose
flourish excel at slightly less than the recommended amount.
<So without CO2 did the fish behave differently or better?>
I ceased excel dosing for a week to see if the fish showed any
improvements to no effect. I tested and I do have some day/night pH
swings but not by much. All I've got is an API kit but the difference
looks to be about 0.2 lights off to lights on. The LA tap comes out ~8.2
here and is moderately buffered. I haven't checked the TDS or
conductivity but a local planted tank shop told me that he runs all his
tanks on tap and dosing moderately shouldn't be a problem. The issue
might be related to or exacerbated by organic matter in the tank. I
typically do a pretty good job pruning old growth and removing dead
plant matter, but there have been times where I get busy and let the
tank go a bit. I started pruning old leaves a bit more heavily as a
precaution and have been diligent about removing any dead/dying
material. I also ceased fertilizing for a while,
but started again when some of my plants started showing pinholes on
their leaves. Since restarting I've cut back to 2/3 of what I used to
dose.
<Sounds wise.>
I won't rule out any issue with organics in my tank, as I have soil
capped with sand and a lot of living biological material, but I decided
to check if a sick fish could transmit the condition. I took two
obviously sick Endler's and placed then with 3 swordtails my girlfriend
was culling (1m/1f older adults and one juvenile). Within a week all 3
were spitting food. The
Endler's were removed and euthanized. Both older fish progressed to the
point where they weren't even trying to eat so I euthanized them. The
juvenile eventually recovered. I then set up a new tank and tested to
see if the recovered juvenile could infect a female Betta and a couple
other juveniles. The Betta seemed a bit under the weather and her shape
got a little funky but never stopped eating and was added to the
original infected tank with the survivor swordtail. Both of the new
juveniles were infected and died. My latest suspicion is neon tetra
disease, or some microsporidia.
<Perhaps, but both are difficult to diagnose without a microscope. Some
fish health vets have stated about half supposed "Neon Tetra Disease"
infections are actually Mycobacteriosis. In other words, you can't
distinguish Pleistophora from Mycobacteria by eye. Really do need a
microscope.>
My girlfriend was initially convinced (or just afraid) it was fish TB
but after taking parasitology this quarter she agrees with my initial
suspicion of this probably being protozoan.
<A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing! But since you have access
to a microscope via your girlfriend, why not take a dead fish into the
lab, take smears from the skin, inside the mouth, gill cavity, etc., and
see what you can see. Presumably your university library has Ed Noga's
"Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment". That's the book you need.>
The fact that some species seem more affected is what really makes me
lean that way.
<But isn't conclusive. Trust me. Pleistophora is classically associated
with Neons but has been reported from fish as diverse as Goldfish and
Angels, while Mycobacteria has been reported from just about every fish
someone's made an effort to examine. Very, very few fish infections can
be truly identified to genus level by eye. Whitespot, Velvet, Crypt...
maybe Columnaris, possibly Costia... but not much beyond these.>
One symptom I neglected to mention is that in really sick fish the spine
starts to bend. I've only noticed this in female Endler's, and perhaps
slightly in one Celebes who hung on to life for a long time. The sick
female I used to infect the swordtails was severely deformed by the time
I killed her. I should have taken a picture, but didn't think to at the
time.
Moving forward I fear I'm going to have to euthanize a lot of fish and
hope for the best. That or tear the tank down and start over. My endler
population is now only juveniles, which gives me little hope for any of
them surviving.
<On the contrary, often juveniles survive rather better than the adults
if the problem has been exacerbated by long-term stress or dietary
shortcomings. Definitely worth leaving them be if they're currently
feeding and growing.>
I'm planning on euthanizing all of my Endler's and any currently sick
fish prior to me leaving town for a bit during the holidays. I might try
adding a couple new Celebes after I get back to see if there is any
lingering infection.
<No! If all the fish die, then leave the tank fallow for a few weeks.
That'll break the life cycle of most common parasites. Bacterial
infections are latent in most tanks, even Fish TB/Mycobacteriosis, and
they only become a problem when the fish are stressed, so while you
might run some antibiotics through the tank, there's no real point, and
few work on Mycobacteria spp in particular. Keep the filter happy by
adding a little fish food now and again (the snails will turn this into
ammonia). Then, select fish wisely from the start, adding a few at a
time, choosing species suited to your environmental parameters. If you
have liquid rock water, avoid tetras and other South American fish, but
consider livebearers (particularly the non-fancy varieties with better
health, such as Heterandria, Limia, etc.) as well as Ricefish, some of
the Rainbows, and the hardier/adaptable cyprinids, such as Cherry Barbs
and Danios.>
In a month or so I should know if I've beaten this thing or not.
Thanks again, Samuel
<Cheers, Neale.>
Using liquid fertilizers with dojo loaches
8/15/14
Hi
I have a question. I have a 20 gallon long tank and have had my two golden Dojos
for a long time. One for two years, one for one year. I recently decided to
change my tank to be planted from the ugly plastic stuff I had before! :) As I
go along, I continue learning about things I need to be doing.
<Ah yes!>
I have a fairly heavily planted tank. I was considering using Seachem
Flourish Comprehensive fertilizer for my plants and wanted to know if this will
hurt my loaches.
<It will not. This, indeed all SeaChem's products are safe to use>
I know they are very fragile in terms of being scaleless and I don't want to do
anything that will harm them.
<Understood>
At the same time, I have a question about filtration in a planted tank.
Right now I have two HOB Aqueon filters, one 20 and one 10. I have no carbon,
only foam and BioMax ceramic rings for biological filtration. The more I read, I
have found that, for planted tanks, less filtration is better. I was considering
removing the Aqueon 10 and just having the 20 on there. Thoughts?
<I like redundancy in filtration, circulation.... Would leave both on here>
Thanks so much!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
|
Tank Start-up Questions - 1/25/13
Hi,
<Salve,>
Thank you again for your help in planning my 72-gal West African tank. I am
moving forward with a stocking plan of 8 Congo Tetra, 6 USD Cats, 2
Kribensis, and 4-6 M. fasciolatum. The tank has had water in it and been
running since 1/13. Currently in the tank I have 12 Anubias of 4 different
varieties, 1 Crinum natans, and around 15-20 separate bits of Frogbit
floating at the top. As far as fish go, I currently have 1 Betta (re-homed
when the M. fasciolatum I found on a business trip beat him up) and 6 danios
(starter fish because I was told not to do fishless cycling on a planted
tank).
<Fair enough.>
Before adding the fish, I threw some used filter media from another tank in
the filter, set up with used gravel from a LFS, and used one of the BioSpira
products (I know, not loved around these parts, but I had it on hand). I
added the danios about a week ago, and the plants a couple days before that,
and since then the water has tested a steady .25/0/0 (the .25 ammonia is a
tap water artifact, I believe, based on my testing)
<Seems likely.>
My first question is that I have never had a planted tank or used filter
media to jump start the cycle. So I am familiar with the normal 6-8 wk wait
for things to cycle but I am wondering how quickly to expect this to cycle.
I would have expected to see ammonia rise by now and I am not seeing it.
What should I look for to see if things are ok to start adding fish again?
Are there too few fish to see the nitrates rise due to the plants and tank
size?
<Yes. Generally, tanks with lots of plants become safe very quickly because
the plants use up ammonia as fast as the fish produce it. So while the
filter may still take 6 or 8 weeks to mature, it doesn't matter much because
your fish will be fine. In any case, the plants carry LOTS of filter
bacteria on them, so they do a great job of jump starting the cycle
process.>
My second question is that I purchased my Anubias online and I put them in
the tank the day they came. Now, I have a few of them with yellowing leaves,
<Remove.>
some with all their leaves yellow or translucent and only the rhizome green.
<Fine. Remove any unsightly leaves (they won't get "better") and put the
rhizome where you want it. Anubias is very reliable, and assuming the plant
hasn't been horribly mistreated, it'll regrown some new leaves within a
month.>
I have been removing the dead leaves as they have died. But I am wondering
if this is a byproduct of the transit these plants just went through or the
cycling the tank is going through?
<Yellowing tends to reflect a lack of some nutrient, though Anubias leaves
do yellow when they get old before they start decaying. Individual leaves
last around a year.>
Should I be removing these leaves as they start to get brown, or wait until
they have died?
<I'm pretty ruthless with my Anubias and remove dodgy leaves!>
Or is this indicative of something else, like lighting, etc?
Thanks again!
Jon
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Tank Start-up Questions - 1/25/13
Neale,
<Jon,>
Thank you for answering my questions. I have attached a picture of all the
leaves that I culled tonight. Does that match what you said about missing
nutrients?
<Can do, but Anubias grow so slowly, I find they usually manage to get all
the minerals they need from regular water changes. But adding extra minerals
to the water won't do any harm; try using drops at 50% the quoted dose on
the bottle and see what happens. I rarely use the full dose (maybe I'm a
cynic, but this stuff is pricey and I prefer to use the bare minimum, and
figure I can also go the full dose if the plants *still* look off-colour).>
Or does it look like something else? The odd thing is that the worst of the
plants are at the front of the tank, also the lowest plants in the tank and
the last ones we planted. I don't know if any of that is causal or just
noise.
<Hard to say. Anubias prefer shade rather than direct light, and if there's
nothing between them and the light, hair algae and other problems like that
become obvious. Anubias also hate being buried in the ground, so check how
yours are planted. Finally, some catfish (scraping Plec-type things) will
damage their leaves, making decay more likely.>
Thanks again for your help.
Jon
<Welcome, Neale.>
|
 |
Planted tank in aquarium/fertilizer question
12/12/12
First thanks for the massive amount info from your website.
Recently I've acquired red wiggler worms - to both compost and feed my
freshwater fish. The results of vermicomposting is "casting" which is
the converted compost matter. Googling around it says you can make "worm
tea" which the best you can get fertilizer for plants.
My question is - is this stuff safe for our fish? Specifically the
instructions for making "worm tea" is to put some of the casting/soil in
a breathable cloth bag and aerate it non-chlorine water for 24-48
hours... sounds like I can just put the bag in the aquarium which
already has air pumps running. My only concern is the fish. I am not
able to find ANY information on worm teas and aquarium fish.
<You can add organic fertilisers to aquaria, but usually they are so
high in nitrate and phosphate they trigger massive algal blooms. If you
look at most aquarium fertilisers, they are nitrate and phosphate free,
and instead provide the trace elements like iron and magnesium instead.
Normally, it's the fish that supply the nitrate and phosphate, via
biological filtration and the processing of fish wastes. You can
certainly try a few drops in a planted aquarium to see what happens, but
as an experiment, and with the understanding that you are doing
something risky. Would I try this?
Probably not, though I have used pond soil as a substrate in freshwater
aquaria without problems. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: planted tank in aquarium/fertilizer question
12/12/12
Thanks for answering
My specific question was if you knew the composition of worm tea.
<Not the foggiest.>
It is assumed it would be high in nitrogen like you implied. Would your
answer in previous email change based on the info presented in answer
#11 in this url:
http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/orchid-care-cultivation/10765-worm-tea-how-many-times-a-day.html
it states measured contents is low on N and P, instead it contains
"bacteria" beneficial for plant growth. Can you give further
comment/interpretation on this?
<Hmm… that link says no nitrogen, but says nothing about nitrogenous
compounds (ammonia, ammonium ions, nitrate ions, etc) and likewise
there's a distinction between atomic phosphorus and the phosphate family
of ions that are produced by phosphoric acid. I'm not a soil scientist
so can't really comment any further on this beyond the general biologist
comment that much "lore" repeated by gardeners, aquarists and other
hobbyists is difficult to demonstrate scientifically. I seriously doubt
"worm tea" is a wonder fertiliser that happens to contain live bacteria
capable of doing magical things (indeed, the evidence seems to be that
the plant/bacteria associations in the soil are quite specific to the
location and species in a given piece of soil and difficult to simply
uproot from one place to another).>
Thanks
<Real good, Neale.>
Seachem Flourish Excel 1/02/10
Hello,
<Hi there>
I recently bought Seachem Flourish Excel and have been dosing it per
directions for two weeks in my 55-gallon aquarium.
I found it odd when I cleaned my power filter's cartridge (Whisper
60 Bio-Bag) and it fell apart while I gently sloshed it back and forth
in an aquarium water-filled bucket.
<Naught to do with the Excel>
This disintegration never happened prior to using Flourish Excel; the
cartridges would last for a few months.
So my questions are: Have you ever heard of this before?
<Cartridges "falling apart?" Yes>
If this stuff does this to filter cartridges, what is it doing to my
fish and plants?
<Providing a source of "bioavailable carbon":
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:T_d6Q5pCvLwJ:www.seachem.com/Products/p
roduct_pages/FlourishExcel.html+Seachem+Flourish+Excel&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>
I noticed the cherry barbs were listless for the time I dosed with
Excel, and after a water change and stopping Excel, they are acting
more normal again.
I have stopped using it until I get some answers. I also wrote to
Seachem but haven't received an answer yet. I do know per Web
search that one ingredient is a disinfectant named Gluteraldehyde;
<Mmm, more likely functioning as a preservative and aiding in
emulsification here>
not sure if it is the filter-cartridge disintegrator.
<Mmm, not in low concentration... the cartridge is made of
Dacron/Polyester I take it (I've visited Blacksburg, VA where these
used to be made/fabricated). This should be non-affected by
Excel>
Thanks for any help,
David Parker
<I do agree with your cautious action here. I would limit the amount
of addition/s till you can determine a safe course. Please do report
back what you discern. Bob Fenner>
Re: Seachem Flourish Excel -- 01/03/10
Hi Bob,
<Hello David>
Thanks for your reply.
<Certainly welcome>
I've never in several years of using Whisper 60 Bio-Bag filter
cartridges had a relatively new one (~2 weeks old) turn to mush and
disintegrate while gently cleaning it.
<Mmm, me neither... in such a short use-time>
The only new variable in this episode is the dosing with Excel.
Logically, there must be a connection.
<Seems like it>
Glutaraldehyde is a source of carbon. Here's an excellent post from
TFH forum explaining Glutaraldehyde and its contributions:
_Re: flourish excel_
(http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=23638#p252284)
(http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?p=252284&sid=8f54f51f02b58e36e0
bc748c62927ba5#p252284) by _travis_
(http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=602&sid=8f54f51f02b58e36e0bc748c62927ba5)
(339)
on Tues Mar 25, 2008 11:48 PM
<Have just read through, and see a good bit "lifted
below". What is presented appears accurate>
Seachem is somewhat tight-lipped about the true formulation of Excel
and how it works. Excel's primary effect is to provide a
bioavailable source of carbon for plants that algae cannot take
advantage of. Secondarily, it acts as an algicide: it kills algae by
cross-linking the proteins in its cells.
Most vascular plants are unaffected by low concentrations of Excel
because of their more complex and robust cellular structure. It can
however have negative effects on some of the simpler mosses,
liverworts, and plant genera like Vallisneria spp. and Ceratophyllum
spp. (hornwort).
Excel's active ingredient, and the mechanism from which it derives
much of its higher-order plant benefits, is a chemical called
Glutaraldehyde. Excel uses a polymerized form of Glutaraldehyde called
polycycloglutaracetal.
Glutaraldehyde is used in industry as a disinfectant, fixative,
chemical preservative, and even an embalming fluid. In strong
concentrations it is toxic to humans. However, Seachem discovered that,
in low concentrations, Glutaraldehyde provided an excellent
supplemental source of carbon to plants.
The secondary algicidal benefits were, I suspect, a happy
coincidence.
I was able to get my hands on some raw Glutaraldehyde (a 10% solution,
if I remember correctly) and experimented with it as a substitute for
Excel.
On its own, Glutaraldehyde is much more concentrated than the form that
is found in Excel and it requires only minute amounts (2 ml/day in a
125G tank)
to achieve effects similar to those of Excel. While it was interesting
to get a chance to use the rocket fuel equivalent of Excel's
diesel, I was not too thrilled about having to keep a bottle of toxic
embalming fluid in my refrigerator just to make my plants happy. Excel
is a much safer alternative and I am still a regular user.
But I've yet to read anything about glutaraldehyde's
deleterious effect on filter-cartridge material. Apparently its
disinfecting/embalming properties don't sit well with
petroleum-derived filter material.
I'm still waiting for a reply from Seachem.
Regards,
David Parker
<Mmm, well, Gluteraldehyde does have solvent properties... but am
still quizzical re the effect at such low concentrations as here. To
reiterate, I would cease the use of this product for now... and
actually look to other means of supplying "useful" carbon.
Unless you're "really" boosting photosynthesis (via
intense, suitable lighting) and otherwise supplying all other
macro-nutrients... It is unlikely that carbon is rate-limiting. I would
be using gas (CO2) infusion myself if this were needed, desired, not a
liquid prep.. Cheers, BobF>
Plant deficiencies and light time -09/03/08 Dear
Sir, <Hans> I have been doing some observation on my plants. I
have noticed potassium and nitrogen deficiencies (holes and yellowing
in leaves). But at the same time I also notice a calcium deficiency
(bent and cupped leaves). I have been doing some research and found
that excess potassium can lead to calcium deficiency according to some.
<This is so> I have been dosing KNO3 as source of nitrogen(N),
KH2PO4 for (P), K2SO4 and KCL for (K) and using the EI method. I have
been reducing the dose of (K) gradually. Should I stop dosing (K) or
only dose one source of (K) instead of mixing K2SO4 and KCL at the same
time? <Depends... mostly on what your concentration of free
potassium is period... You may not need, want more... Is this rate
limiting here?> I don't believe that I should dose Calcium since
my dKH level is 8, or should I? <Likely not... but I would test for
calcium apart from this measure of alkalinity> Another question is
regarding timing for lighting. I now set my light on from 8am to 6pm. I
could hardly enjoy looking at the aquarium. If I want to change the
timing, say from 3pm to 10pm, would there be a problem? <Mmm, no>
I notice that the plants have already started to unravel at the top
even before the lights are on (may be around 7am) Thank you. Regards,
Hans <You raise many good questions here Hans... Are you familiar
with the site: "the Krib" .com? Bob
Fenner> Micro nutrient, Planted tk.s 8/22/08
Dear Sir, <Hans> I need some advice if I can use this micro
nutrient. It's ingredient is as follow: Fe=1.1% bo=0.3 cu=0.5
<Too high> mn=1.5 mo=0.01 zn=1.1 mg=3.4 S =5.3 <Ditto> This
micro nutrient is the best I can find locally. It is low Fe percentage
compared to Plantex, and it also has a high percentage of S (sulfur).
If I can use this micro nutrient, how much can I add? Thank you, Hans
<I take it you want to use this in a planted freshwater aquarium
set-up of some sort. I would NOT place this material in a biological
system. The copper level alone is too high. Bob Fenner>
Nitrates in a planted tank... grammar checking,
rdg. 3-11-08 i have a 20 gallon long planted tank . I
am running 2 filters a marine land bio wheel rated for 20 gallons and a
eheim rated for 30 gallons .The tank contains one angle fish four
phantom tetra four Cory cats and a couple of oto cats .i am not sure
how many are left . I am having a real hard time lowering my nitrates .
I have been doing a couple water changes a week with no effect on these
levels . is there something else i can do . also is it possible that my
test kit is bad i have had it for over two years <... read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwnitrates.htm and the linked
files above... Bob Fenner>
News on Iron pills in planted tank Dear WWM Crew, A few
months ago I asked whether or not it was a good idea or feasible to use
iron pills in the substrate of a planted tank. <Can be... if useful,
have propitious water chemistry...> Below is a copy of my e-mail
with your replies. I recently discovered that you had posted my inquiry
on your website (link is below) http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/majmicrnutrfaqs.htm
Which is great, but I have news that may be of use to your readers.
<Spiel on!> Shortly after I heard from you, I went ahead with the
experiment and placed some iron pills in the substrate. Since then I
have found that my plants stay green, and I rarely if ever need to dose
iron water (Seachem) to the tank. <Yes, not always a rate-limiting
material> I have posted my success/discovery on www.barrreport.com
(link is below) http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/2552-iron-pills-my-experiment.html
Please post this information on your site as I am very excited about it
and would like to spread the news for all of those who are interested
or may be looking for similar information. Sincerely, Jocelyn Staskus
<Well done... I do like the mention of gluconate, DTHP binder... Bob
Fenner>
Planted tank fertilizing question
8/6/06 Dear Crew, My tank is constantly in need of iron, and
recently the plants have developed strong signs of potassium and
manganese deficiency as well. <Mmmm...> I was wondering if buying
iron pills and placing them in the substrate would be a more
cost-effective way of dosing iron to the plants. <Not likely... Need
to discern what is "taking up" these essential materials,
what in your water quality may be of influence...> Would this also
work for the potassium, manganese, and any other nutrients that happen
to be needed? <Mmm, dangerous to "just add" one or more
such material... can dun and accelerate the effects of other
materials... You don't want imbalances to be induced here> I
bought some iron pills, but they don't just have iron in them and I
wanted to know if the other ingredients would: 1) Affect whether or not
I should use the pills to dose at all (are they 'safe') <Not
likely. I would not use these under any but experimental conditions>
2) Limit how much should be dosed to the tank <Yes, somehow> The
pills are "Nature Made" Iron in 65mg tablets. The ingredients
are listed as: Ferrous Sulfate, Cellulose Gel, Dibasic Calcium
Phosphate, Croscarmellose Sodium, Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose,
Titanium Dioxide (artificial color), Magnesium Stearate, Polyethylene
Glycol, Triethyl Citrate, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Citrate. <Mmm,
don't see anything here that is outright toxic... As stated, this
might act as some kind of scientific endeavour... with the absence of
desired fishes, invertebrates... and testing> Also, is there a list
anywhere saying what not to put in your tank (chemical wise)? Thank
you! -Jocelyn <There are exhaustive materials on planted aquariums,
fertilization, chemical supplementation posted on the AGA's site:
"thekrib.com".... I encourage you to read there, devise
either to make your own or purchase their PMDD formulation, look into
what about your system and water make up (as well as possibly
livestock) that may be making these metals limited... rather than going
ahead with the use of these pills. Bob Fenner> Phosphate in
Freshwater Aquaria 7/3/06 I'm aware that phosphate
has some major negative factors in marine aquaria. However, I've
never seen any information on its impact on freshwater
aquaria. I have a 75 gallon planted discus tank and
currently my phosphates are running at about
1ppm. Should I be concerned? <Soluble phosphate in
freshwater can be problematic, but as you point out, along with the
general statement/understanding of the effects as graded by
size/stability of environments, the worlds oceans are far more stable
chemically, physically (biologically...) than even the largest, oldest
freshwater... Still, not hard to "overdrive" photosynthesis
(mostly algae problems) with too much HPO4 present. I would do what is
reasonable (start with filtered source water, likely RO... Use chemical
filtrants, utilized live plants for purposeful uptake...) to remove
excess phosphate... In most settings this would be most any detectable
quantity, but somewhere below 0.1 ppm is likely a good target. Bob
Fenner>
Planted Aquarium Problems, mainly
fert. 7/1/06 Dear Crew: <Des> I have been a
fish hobbyist for several years, but have only recently tried my hand
at a planted aquarium. <A wonderful part of our hobby interest,
eh?> My 29 has one of those standard hoods you get from a pet store
(fluorescent), and I am not exactly sure of the wattage (I can't
look because I am not at home!). But it is a full-spectrum florescent,
<May want to add a fixture, lamp...> and the water in my tank is
soft. I use RO water, along with a product called Instant Amazon. I do
not use any fertilizers, because I have Cory cats, and many ferts have
copper in them. <Ahh!> I was using a product with iron in it,
which my crypts loved, but once I got my Corys I had to discontinue it
since it had copper. I then switched fertilizers to something called
Leaf Zone (an aquarium buddy recommended it- he has great luck with his
Vallisneria using it), but my Cryptocorynes did not like it so much and
immediately began melting away. Horrified, I quit using it, and they
slowly came back out of it. So, now I use nothing, and my Vallisneria
is beginning to split at the tops of the leaves. I do not know if this
is from lack of nutrients, too high of water flow on it.... I would
love to find a fertilizer that does not harm my crypts or Corys, which
seem to be the most sensitive things in my tank. <Read about PMDD
("Poor Man's Dupla Drops") on the Krib (.com), and
consider adding some tapwater back in with your water changes> I
have fluorite mixed with a fine gravel for my substrate. The plants in
my tank are as follows: Vallisneria, red crypt., green crypt, an
oddball crypt that is green with a broader stalk and leave than my
others, a red Ruben sword, a ulvaceus bulb, and an Anubias nana (which
just bloomed!). My red Ruben has also been getting small holes in the
leaves, and then they consequently turn brown and start to deteriorate
once they are about three inches in length. I do not know if my snails
are the culprit for that... <Possibly, but could be just a limited
supply of alkaline earth elemental material> I never see any of my
snails on my plants, just my driftwood that has a little algae growth.
But my snails are Ramshorns and.... I can't remember the name...
they have a gold shell and red body... But, if you guys have any
suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it. I love my planted tank, and
would like to find out what is going on. Thanks so much! Desirae
<Mmm, have you read through our Planted Aquarium Subweb: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/AquariumGardenSubWebIndex.html
I would, re Lighting, Light Fixtures, Fertilizer... and the associated
FAQs files. Bob Fenner>
Adding Flourish To A Planted Tank 12/17/05 Thanks for
the help. Just to clarify Flourish Iron adds Iron, Flourish
Excel http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/
FlourishExcel.html is a form of Carbon. What do you think? Thanks <
Not the same. I love SeaChem Products but I don't think the carbon
is as easily and readily absorbed as CO2 gas.-Chuck>
Plant Supplements and Shrimp - 04/04/2005 I've been using
Kent Freshwater Plant Supplement in my 5.5 gallon aquarium and recently
bought a few algae eating shrimp (I believe they're the Amano
something type). <Likely Caridina japonica, "the"
algae-eating or "Amano" shrimp.> I noticed that this
supplement contains (min) .00001% copper as well as .24% chelated iron.
I've been using a little lower dosage, just in case, but I was
wondering if these metals would adversely affect my shrimp...
<Having wondered the same thing myself, and having used similar
supplements on my planted tanks with shrimp, I feel safe in saying that
I really doubt that the supplement you are using, at or below the
recommended dosage, will cause the shrimp any harm. I think your shrimp
ought to be just fine.> ...and would the use of iodine supplements
improve the situation? <YES! Oh, yes. Absolutely, yes. I use
Kent Marine iodine at a rate of ONE DROP per TEN GALLONS every week.
For your little tank, you could do one drop every two weeks. DO NOT use
the marine dose printed on the bottle.> Oh! I was also planning on
putting some Triops in there (although I don't know if you folks
know a lot about them) <I sure do! I *love* Triops!> and was
wondering whether they would eat the shrimp, the shrimp being about 1.5
or 2 inches long. <.... I don't think they would. I
certainly can't guarantee anything, but I don't think they
would. You might try getting a couple of el-cheapo shrimp (like ghost
shrimp, often sold as feeders) and put those in with the Triops - if
the Triops don't eat them, the japonicas should be safe. I've
always wanted to put Triops in one of my tanks; I just need to hatch a
few more. Awesome little boogers, aren't they??> Thanks a bunch
for your help! <You bet. I have great interest in hearing how things
go with the Triops. Please do let us know how it works out, and how
well they do in the tank! Thanks, and good luck! Wishing you and your
adorable inverts well, -Sabrina>
Hydroponic Plant Fertilizers - A Little
Capitalization/Punctuation, Please? I was wondering if you could
give a few suggestions on the use of Hydroponics nutrients into the
freshwater aquarium to keep plants healthy. <Will try> I was told
by my good friend, who has the best looking jungle aquarium that
I've ever seen and very green, that he uses NO CO2, keeps light at 1w per gallon for 12 hours a day,
doesn't spend ONE DIME on any of the so-called Aquarium Fertilizers
and says they are only high priced copies of what he is using. Diluted
down by the barrel load and making the fert companies millions. He
claims that with all his tank, and he raises fish and plants, that he
was spending thousands of dollars on commercial fertilizers from Kent
and had a scientist friend of his dissect their products and found the
same thing in his plant solutions, so he duplicated it and added iron?
<Possibly... the formulations for "aquarium plant"
fertilizers are known, available (see "the Krib" re)> He
takes all the separate nutrients and eyedroppers them into the tank on
a daily basis and says this works just fine. He has never lost a fish
from this and the only two fish he lost in two years were ones that
came from the pet shop and didn't survive the first week. Would
appreciate your opinion on this. JB <Can indeed be done... in a
nutshell, the nutrients for these plants are identical to
"hydroponic" plants... but not in the same concentrations as
the latter... the careful slow addition (daily, dropper) WITH testing
(for phosphate likely as an indicator) should be able to yield good
results. Bob Fenner>
Amazon Sword plants with Black Fungus, PMDD? Bob & Crew,
Thanks again. I'll hold off on the plant nutrient for now.
BTW, I did do a PMDD a few days ago for $25. I did not fill out the
"tell them who paid" form as I figured that was not
important. Just so you know I wasn't expecting a free lunch .. .
the assistance is valuable to me. Hope that is OK; please let me know
if that does not seem equitable to you. Cheers, Dave <Mmm, was
referring to "Poor Man's Dupla Drops"... the formulation
on "the Krib"... a great DIY faux reformulation of the Dupla
product... Bob Fenner>
Iron in a Plant Tank Hi Bob (or whoever is on duty)
<Sabrina today, hi, Ken> Happy New Year to all: <And to you,
as well!> I have a question that is driving me nuts. <Hopefully
we can help you out a bit, then!> My 75g heavily planted tank has
been running a couple days short of 7 weeks. Plant growth is good and
hair algae is minimal. I started dosing small amounts of Seachem
Flourish and their Iron (as well as potassium) a couple weeks ago. The
test kits still show unmeasurable for the amount of iron in the water.
How "fast" can I add iron to get to the target area without
getting algae, or won't this affect it? <It shouldn't affect
algae, provided you don't go over the amount of iron your plants
need/will use, as the plants should take it up before the
algae. It is quite possible to overdose in iron, so it is
important to continue testing for it as you add.> Also I was advised
by Seachem as well as a couple of the online plant dealers not to add
nitrate and phosphate as the plants will get enough from the fish and I
will have algae issues if I do. <This is possible. Again,
if you test for these, if they do show as present on your tests, you
probably do not need to add.> Right now I have 7 SAE's, 12 Otto
cats, 6 lemon tetras, and 6 cherry barbs. <Sounds like
fun!> Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phosphate are all zero. Ph=
6.8, GH= 7, KH=4. I use pressurized CO2 and have 260 watts on 75g tank.
<Mmkay, you might want to dose nitrate and phosphate, but you
indicated that hair algae was "minimal", which makes me think
there is some there, so you'll probably want to hold off for a bit
while the plants continue to take off.> I appreciate any help you
can give as I hear so many conflicting things that I am afraid to do
anything. <There really is a huge amount of conflicting
advice/information out there, that's for sure. But
don't be afraid - sift through the information you find, decide
what is right for your tank, and go for it. If you're at
all interested in some great plant reading, there are a number of good
plant books available now that will probably be a great help in
figuring out what to do. In fact, the book "Aquarium
Plants" by Christina Wassermann, has been translated to English
and is now available (though *quite* expensive, perhaps prohibitively
so), and there is always Pablo Tepoot's "Aquarium Plants: The
Practical Guide, and a more recent book "Encyclopedia of Aquarium
Plants" by Peter Hiscock (no, I'm not making that name
up....). There are also the "Nature Aquarium
World" books by Takashi Amano, which are basically astounding
photography of even more astounding aquariums - and even better, all
the details on what makes them run, even down to a count of bubbles of
CO2 added. You'd probably *really* enjoy these!>
Thanks for your help. Ken <Sure thing. Wishing
you and your plants well, -Sabrina>
Re: Plant Vitamins Thanks SO much Ronni- <You're very
welcome> did a water changed, scrubbed down the driftwood and
cleaned off plants and water looked good- unfortunately the Hygro sun
is still weak- looks yellow and disintegrates and the Bacopa is still
same- but will wait it out. The problem might have been the bottle of
Flourish I was using. On instinct I threw it out and opened another,
and the liquid was a light, pale green- my old bottle was a dark, murky
green. So maybe it was on the shelf too long (I do refrigerate)
<Very possible.> But maybe you can help me with a simple (hmmm)
plant nutrient question. Today I noticed that the really cool dwarf
onion plant which has been holding it's own, the TIPS are yellow-
not the nice dark green. I DON'T GET IT (can you tell I'm
annoyed!) <Are they mushy or just slightly yellow? I have the larger
onions in my tank and the tips are always more yellow than the rest of
the plant so this may be fairly normal. I never worried too much about
it because mine always grew to several times the 'normal'
height of these plants (at one point they were 5' tall!). So if
they aren't mushy or disintegrating I would just watch them.> I
spend $$ to get SeaChem Fluorite substrate, cleaned the stuff for hours
to sift out most of red- and even with poking around when I clean tank
still gets red for a while. I bought iron tab supplements, and still,
plants get yellow- maybe it's not the light, maybe low IRON? Does
low potassium make leaves turn yellow? <This I'm really not sure
about.> I've never tested before and I know that Kent Pro Plant
and Flourish are suppose to make up for nutrients, but obviously
something is not good. What do you use in your tank setup- the pics you
send me were awesome? <Thanks for the compliments! I've never
added anything to my tank for the plants and am only using crushed
granite for a substrate so really I think I've just been lucky. I
am battling a hair algae problem now too though. In the past week the
stuff has been trying to take over my entire tank. I'm still trying
to figure out why since nothing has changed.> Someone on your web
talked about Dupla or Dupla 24 for fertilizer_ any good? Please help,
otherwise, I have no idea why plants and not doing well.....
<I've never used it but I have heard several people mention it.
You know'¦ if you have a reputable plant store in your area
you might want to call them and see what they recommend. I'd look
specifically for one that carries pond plants and accessories since
they'll know a bit more about dealing with planted fish systems.
Just a thought. One other thing you can try for the algae problem, and
forgive me if it sounds strange, but get a small handful of barley
straw, stick it in a nylon stocking or other filter media bag, and
place it in your filter or somewhere in your tank where the water has
to pass thru it. I don't know if it will help eliminate the algae
but it's something that was recommended to me by a pond keeper.
They use straw to help control algae and eliminate green water.>
Rosa *bit grumpy, so excuse me*- <Cheer up, you'll get thru this
stage and have a beautiful tank again! Ronni>
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