Red Sea Butterfly Biotope ~ 01/12/09
Good afternoon.
<<Greetings>>
I have been diligently reading and enjoying your site for several months.
<<Ah! Excellent…>>
I have owned aquariums for 30+ years,
<<Me too!>>
but have recently decided to get into saltwater.
<<Ah well, got ya there…[grin] I set up my first SW tank in 1977… My first reef tank in 1989… You’re gonna LOVE saltwater…>>
I want to create a specific biotope
<<Best way to go…>>
from the Red Sea,
<<If you haven’t already, do check out these links:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/rsbiotopes.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/redseafwgv1.htm >>
primarily with butterflies.
<<And this one: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bstbfsrs.htm >>
This tank will be a FOWLR or at least I believe it will be.
<<Indeed… Butterflies are not good candidates for a reef system>>
I have been told, but have yet to confirm, that a good butterfly tank should have a fairly large amount of live corals to keep the fish healthy.
<<That depends…and isn’t really practical in most hobbyist-size systems. If the species in question are obligate corallivores you won’t be able to provide what they need to keep them healthy/alive, regardless>>
The information I received is that the types of butterflies I want to place in the tank will only nip at the corals and consume the liquid which is excreted by the damaged coral.
<<Mmm, no… These fishes will consume coral polyps/flesh>>
I plan on having 1 Raccoon, 3 Banner, and 1 Semilarvatus.
<<All excellent choices for captive care>>
The tank is a 135 with a sump.
<<Hmm… I think “ultimately” this will be too small for this mix. These are not “small” fishes. The Banners have the potential to reach 8-inches, with the Raccoon and Semilarvatus going for a couple more. If nothing else, there will likely be social/aggression issues…sooner or later>>
Live rock will be around 100lbs. There are two large Protein skimmers built into the sump and a DSB. Do you have any experience which supports the claim that the fish need to consume this liquid from the coral to be at their best health?
<<Have never heard such… But have certainly seen and heard of them consuming coral polyps/flesh>>
If so, can you tell me the best types of corals for this purpose?
<<Some species can be very specific as to which corals they will dine upon while others will eat most any they come across. But what you propose is not necessary (or practical) with the fish choices listed here. Fortunately, the species you have chosen most always take well to prepared foods. And even if you could afford to keep up a ready supply of “food” corals, the money would be better spent on a larger tank/system here>>
Will the fish ultimately kill the coral?
<<In the confines of a home aquarium, yes… If the fish take to the coral as food, they will generally consume all, or at least to the point of the coral’s demise>>
Another question has arisen during my planning of the tank. I plan on keeping the tank at a higher salinity, due to the regional requirements of the biotope.
<<That’s fine… And unless endemics, do also ensure your fish come from that region>>
However, recently I have been reading the benefits of Hypersaline for initial fish introduction and other benefits.
<<Hmm, I think you mean the other way around…Hyposalinity. And in my opinion not to be used on a continuous basis for the unnatural state/induced stresses re. Best to simply provide a pH adjusted freshwater dip and then quarantine at NSW levels>>
Could I start the tank in this mode, then slowly move to the appropriate salinity, or is it better to start these fish at the Red Sea salinity level?
<<The latter, for sure>>
Thank you so much for your assistance.
Erik
<<Happy to share. EricR>>

Semilarvatus and corals   5/19/07
Hi WWM Crew,
<Noah>
Great site! I have learned a lot from your experience and knowledge.
I have a pair of Golden Butterflyfish (Semilarvatus) for about a year now.
They're doing great and have grown to about 6 inches each.
<A great species...>
I'm in search for a coral that will be able to withstand these ferocious coral eating fish.
<Mmm... in a large enough system...>
I have no illusion of having them in a full-blown reef system. But I desperately want to have just one or two kinds of corals in the system.  So far I have tried  Xenia and Clavularia and they chowed them down quickly. My search narrows  me down to 3 corals which I will try next: Sarcophyton, Sinularia and Cladiella,
<Good possibilities>
as I know these are some of the most noxious corals. (I may try mushrooms if all the above also fail). My question is of the 3 corals mentioned, which one is more noxious? Cladiella?
<Mmm, likely the Sarco>
Also Anthony Calfo said in one of his replies on this site that "Alcyonium species (often mislabeled as Cladiella) .... is one of the most chemically noxious corals that money can buy". I have the money ... hehe .... about  $50 more or less :),   but I can't find it anywhere on the net or my LFS. Are these hard to find?
<Mmm, not really... ask your local LFS to order this in for you if you'd like>
Lastly have you or anyone else on the web that had any long-term success with Semilarvatus with any kind of corals?
<Oh yes... have seen this species around the world in large reef systems... and of course on many occasions diving in the Red Sea... on reefs>
I have read a report elsewhere on the net that someone has tried but after a few months, the fish proceeded to eat "just about all" of his corals. What I would like to know is if anyone even had any success with just one coral with these fish?
<Don't know about "just one coral" here... but have seen housed with all the principal Classes of Cnidarians...>
Thank you and have a great weekend ahead...
Noah
<You've seen my piece on the species: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/semilarvatusart.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Golden Butterfly, sel.  4/14/07
Mr. Fenner,
<Kirk>
I am getting mixed messages from several fish clubs in regards to the hardiness of this fish and ability to keep this fish in captivity. So I thought I would go to the "source" for the correct information.
<And good timing... I just finished a "piece" on Chaetodon semilarvatus yesterday! And do agree with your finding concerning opinions re this Red Sea beauty... I took the usual scan/look over the Net and came up with about the same... However, I have extensive personal, industry, collection and international experience with this species of a long time period (forty plus years)... It is not only an exemplary Chaetodontid for marine aquarium use, it ranks high IME as an overall species for such... Most arrive (all are wild-collected, the majority out of Jeddah, transiting through Europe...) in great condition, readily accept foods of all sorts... My piece here: http://wetwebmedia.com/semilarvatusart.htm>
I am in the midst of having a 370 acrylic gallon tank built.  I would like to keep this fish, however most everyone I have spoken to about this fish says to avoid it. The all say it is more difficult to feed than a Copperband butterfly (which I have successfully kept before) and it most likely is not reef safe.
<I disagree... as you will see/read>
My tank will only have a handful of LPS corals (frogspawns, torch, anemones, etc..), but the majority of the tank is FO.  I do know that on my inhabitant list will be least 2 large angelfish. (Emperor and one other).
<Should be fine in this size, type of set-up... with suitable Pomacanthids>
Am I crazy in trying to attempt to house this fish??
What advice can you give.
BTW, I have read your article:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/semilarvatusart.htm
<Is just spiffed up from ayer... do take a re-read>
I look forward to your reply,
Kindest regards,
Kirk
<And to you. Bob Fenner>

Re: Golden Butterfly  4/18/07
Mr. Fenner,
<Just Bob, Kirk>
Thanks for your reply.  I re-read your butterfly article. I am more confident that having this fish is a possibility in my tank (now am I bold enough to try a pair or just a single) <VBG>.
<Ah, good>
I have a list of inhabitants for my 370gallon tank:
Golden Butterfly
Copperband Butterfly (I don't know if a copperband and a golden in the same tank will work).
<Should be fine>
Emperor Angelfish
Majestic Angelfish
<Mmm, I would just stick with one large Pomacanthid here... and consider either a Red Sea Imperator... or one of the subgenus Arusettas...>
Flame Angelfish
Blonde Naso Tang
Yellow eye (Kole) Tang
Blue Throat or Pink-tail Triggerfish (very peaceful fish)
Two Perculas clownfish
Do you see a problem with this list?
<No... other than the Angels mentioned>
What changes would you make (if any).
<I'd switch all to a Red Sea biotope theme... see here: http://wetwebmedia.com/redseafwgv1.htm
and the linked files above...>
What order would these fish be added?  
<More passive first... the trigger and large angel/s last>
Thanks again.
I look forward to your reply.
Kirk
<BobF>

Clown Trigger in a FOWLR? III - 07/03/06 Words of Wisdom...
Eric,
<<Matt>>
Having "digested" your previous response, and having given consideration to the practicalities of "mixing" large predators with b'flies (in terms of water quality required, food types offered and regularity of feeding, and so on) I think it might be better (for me, not generally speaking) to stick with one or the other.
<<Intuitive of you...and would serve all fish keepers in "general" to make these considerations (and more) as well.  I strongly feel that keeping fishes (especially "difficult" species) becomes easier when they are kept in "natural" groupings, e.g. - not mixing fishes from different oceans, keeping fishes together from the same type environment or niche (high light levels vs. low light levels, shallow water vs. deep water, and with similar habits (active fast movers vs. slow deliberate feeders).  I'm not saying hobbyists can't be successful to the contrary, just that it's easier (on both the aquarist and the fishes) when the setting is more "natural" to the fishes>>
I have enough info to ponder the pros & cons of a lionfish only tank, hence my query will concentrate of a b'fly type system.
<<Okay>>
I have also discounted the idea of a trigger in the interest of being able to have a decent clean up crew (stars & snails mainly).
<<Mmm, do consider this...I have a 5" male Bluethroat trigger (Xanthichthys auromarginatus) in a large reef system.  He shares this tank with two species of Lysmata shrimp, serpent stars, Asterina starfish, Turbo, Cerith, and Nassarius snails...to my knowledge he has never touched any, or even shown an interest...though you'll notice I don't keep hermits so I don't know how he would react to these>>
I think the clean up crew is probably even more important to keep down levels of dissolved organics, as will the inclusion of a macro algae refugium (obviously skimmers, and LR etc will all be included).
<<Excellent>>
If I go for a b'fly set up, I would opt for a pair of Chaetodon semilarvatus, and hence I would probably opt for a Red Sea biotope, so I can keep the s.g. nice and high as recommended by Bob in the "Best B'flies from the red sea" article.
<<Indeed...I love biotope displays>>
In such a set up, realistically how many b'flies could I get in there?
<<Hmm...fewer than you would like <grin> >>
I was surprised by Bob's recommendation of allocating 20 gals per fish - at which rate I could put up to 9 b'flies in a 180.
<<A "generalized" statement no doubt...other factors to consider as well...adult size, temperament, etc.>>
I know this guideline should not be taken literally, so I tried to improvise and extrapolate a realistic stocking rate taking into account the species I am considering.
<<Ah, very good!>>
Hence, with the Semilarvatus being quite big I was counting them as the equivalent of 2 fish each (i.e. Semilarvatus = 4 equivalent fish = allocation of 80 gals).
<<Mmm, a very subjective issue...but I would go with 120 gallons as a minimum for two of these fish>>
But that still allows for 5 more b'flies!
<<Mmm...>>
From the "The Best Butterflyfishes From the Red Sea" article, I chose 4 other species I like (in order of preference):
1 no. Chaetodon paucifasciatus
2 no. Heniochus intermedius
1 no. Chaetodon auriga auriga
My feeling is that this would be too many, and would not be very interesting color scheme (i.e. all yellow / black / white).
<<Agreed on the "too many", but the "color scheme" would likely not be much issue once you saw them in the display>>
Hence, my idea has evolved to part two of my question - could I keep a Maculosus angel, together with the pair of Semilarvatus, and a single Chaetodon paucifasciatus.  In Bob's book he recommends "at least 100 gallons of uncrowded habitat to themselves to fare well" for a Maculosus - so my
logic is:
2 no. C. semilarvatus       =    40 to 80 gallon allocation
1 no. P. maculosus          =    100 gallon allocation
1 no. C. paucifasciatus     =     20 gallon allocation
Total = 160 to 200 gallon allocation.
The system is a 180, and will be aquascaped so as to best suit the
inhabitants (pending your advice). Does this seem like a reasonable proposition?
<<Bob should correct me if I misinterpret, but "100 gallons of uncrowded habitat" reads to me as 100 gallons of open free swimming space, unhampered with by live rock, etc..  To me that would seem to say a 180 is just about right after "careful" aquascaping...but sans any other large fish like the Semilarvatus butterflies>> <Agreed. RMF>
The order of introduction (and size) would probably be: C. paucifasciatus probably a good 3", then the pair of semilarvatus at 3"-4" medium size, then finally the maculosus as a baby 2" specimen.
<<Proper species selection aside, you'll do well to obtain all these species in the 3"-5" range...selecting your larger/smaller specimens within that range>>
Do you think this is a reasonable proposition?
<<I'm very hesitant about including the Maculosus angel with two Chaetodon semilarvatus in a 180...I would choose "one species or the other" as the prominent display fish, and build the display around/to suit that species>>
Would the inclusion of dither fish be a good idea? i.e. half a dozen green Chromis.
<<I think so, yes (the Blue-Green Chromis- Chromis viridis, to keep with the Red Sea theme)...will add some visual interest as well>>
I wouldn't be pushed either way about the Chromis, but if would benefit the general well being of the system, I would include them.
<<Won't hurt>>
Sorry for writing such a long email - but I wanted to give all the relevant info.
<<No worries mate...helps me to help you>>
Thanks again for your help.
Matt
<<Is my pleasure, EricR>>

Semilarvatus Butterfly... Reef Compatibility    8/7/06
I just wanted to ensure that this e-mail was received.  I sent it about a week ago and I would assume it's floating around somewhere trying to find somebody with a sufficient answer - but my email is flakey so I didn't know if it got lost in cyberspace and just wanted to double check.
<Believe this was replied to.>
Friends at WWM,
<Scott>
Just one brief question - does anybody have any idea what corals in particular might be threatened by Semilarvatus Butterflies?  I am considering a pair for my 1300g reef, but would like to know exactly what kind of risk I would be running.  The tank has around 1500lbs of rock, two refugiums, and they will be kept very well fed.
<Some folks say with caution, others, not reef safe.  They do feed on sessile inverts in the wild which includes many of the ornamental varieties we keep.  If it were my call, I would not chance it.
James (Salty Dog)>
Scott

Re: Semilarvatus Butterfly...Reef Compatibility    8/7/06
James,
Thanks for the reply - was lost in cyberspace apparently. I was more curious what type of sessile inverts in particular they delight in consuming.
<Anything that can't get away.:)  In particular tube worms, small crustaceans, soft and hard corals, may nip at clam mantles, etc.>
It's fine if nobody knows, at the very least, I will try them out in a couple of smaller reef tanks and see what they go for and what they don't.
<May want to read here and related links above for more info.   http://www.wetwebmedia.com/BFsBestWrst.htm  James (Salty Dog)>
Scott

Butterfly in the reef tank
Hi Steven,
The snippet below from one of your recent replies to me (different account) suggested a C. semilarvatus. It's a very pretty butterfly and I have been reading widely looking for reef tank safe butterflies. Your WWM listing for this species suggests it eats polyps and corals, though. I don't mind a little zoanthid nibbling and I don't keep LPS except for Euphyllias but is this one really a possibility for the reef tank? If the risk isn't too high I think I'd try it but I haven't previously seen it mentioned as a reef tank candidate.
<Sorry, I did not pay real close attention to the subject line. The Semilarvatus is not a good choice. I made that suggestion to go with the rest of your Red Sea biotope fish.>
As for the ones generally indicated as reef say, the Heniochus don't do anything for me but the long nose are pretty.
<The two species of longnose BF's and the copperband BF are better choices.>
Thanks! Marc
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
A longnose yellow butterfly or 3-4 yellow "Coris" wrasses for some yellow.
(I prefer the butterfly though). Would love a pair but I've yet to see one advertised anywhere or in the LFS.
<Get the butterfly. Maybe a Semilarvatus?>

Re: Golden Butterflyfishes
Hi,
A few days ago I emailed you about adding some Golden Butterflies to my 800 gallon Angelfish tank. After reading your comments and doing more research I went out and purchased 3 Golden Butterflies to be place in my 500 gallon reef tank. All three specimens are 4-5 inches in length. In the reef tank right now I have 400 lbs of live rock setup up in two large pillars that reach the water surface almost with swimming room in the middle of the tank (I kind of wanted it to look more like the outskirts of the reef with a collection of tangs ). I have various hard and soft corals, along with a few clams and so forth. The tank like my 800 was built on site and is glass not acrylic. It runs on two 90 gallon tubs/sumps and various other equipment that I have rigged up mostly. My reef keeping goes back about 5 years now so the tank itself is doing great. The Semilarvatus' were quarantined in a 75 holding tank in the filter room for about a day and a half.
<Hmm, w/o reading further below, I would have left them there for a couple of weeks...>
After they started eating I moved them to the 500 which contains the following for fish:
Gold Rimmed Tang (nigricans a year old and doing well!) 4 in, Achilles 5 in, 3 Red Sea Purple Sailfins all 3.5 in, Black Longnose 6in, 5 Chromis, 9 Sunburst Anthias, various gobies and blennies, and the reason I came into saltwater my 9" Red Sea Sohal Tang. It was a nightmare getting these fish to coexist for the first 3 months but now everything goes well especially since I stumbled across such a docile Sohal and he kind of intimidates them but never shows aggression. I'll have to check my readings but I think my bioload is good right now. The 3 Golden's settled in and were accepted except by the Nigricans but his nipping soon diminished. My question is how big should I expect them to grow? 
<Ultimately plate size (yes, several inches)... but quite slowly... an inch or so per year>
Also should I worry about my corals? 
<Not much. Chaetodon semilarvatus are omnivorous, can/will eat SPS polyps at times, but generally prefer other foodstuffs>
The fish get tons of food because my system is so efficient but will they still possibly graze?
<To a large extent yes... though these are quite hefty, active fishes>
Is there anything else I should expect/worry about? I never realized how awesome these fish were until I had them in the luxury of my own home! Thanks again, I love your site!
<Thank you, and no, not much to worry re... this is a fabulous aquarium species for folks with adequate space. Bob Fenner>