~Gramma Tail Completely Gone~    8/8/08
While you must get this all of the time I still have to tell you what an incredible and enjoyable resource you are in the world of marine aquatics! Thank you for your time, expertise and dedication.
<Thanks>
I have a 55 gallon salt water tank with live rock, a 2” Yellow Tang, 1.5” Regal Tang, 1 False Percula, 1.5” Huma Huma Trigger, 1 Mandarin Goby, and a Royal Gramma (and 4 turbo snails) all of which have been together for over 3 months now with no fighting, etc.
<All but the clowns and Gramma will need larger quarters, and soon.>
I realize that as some of these fish become larger they will likely become increasingly aggressive and will have to be moved to accommodate their size but for now they seem to make a great community together.
<You have a lot of fish with formidable weapons in that tank, between the tangs switchblades and triggers teeth, if it starts to go south it is going to go south fast and bloody.>
My water parameters are as follows: Ammonia = 0 , pH = 8.2, Nitrates =10, Nitrites = 0, spg = 1.019 (I am slowly raising it from the 1.017 during the fallow phase).
<Ok, but I would not recommend ever running the main tank at anything less than 1.025, too tough on the expensive live rock.>
Up until 3 days ago my fish had been quarantined for 6 weeks due to a severe outbreak of ich. While my fish were in QT I kept the display tank at or slightly above 86 degrees and the spg at 1.017 to help eradicate the parasite.
<Not low enough to effect the parasite.>
I was able to avoid administering the copper treatment in my quarantine tank. After a FW dip and being in QT for a few days all the signs of ich were gone and stayed gone. The fish seemed to be doing okay riding out the wait.
<Be aware they are most likely still carrying the ich, hopefully it will remain below symptomatic levels.>
3 days ago we placed them back into the display tank and they seemed happy and were eating and exploring immediately. My pH was a little low yesterday so I did add some Seachem Marine Buffer per the instructions on the container. This has been done in the past with no problems. Other than that, there have been no issues with the tank.
This morning I woke up and checked on my fish and at first glance everyone seemed to be doing well (I keep my fingers crossed every time after the ich debacle). I looked again and was amazed when I saw Moses, my Royal Gramma, who just overnight is completely missing his tail and a portion of his right pectoral fin.
<Attacked>
Where his tail was taken it looks meaty and gnarled. As of late last night he looked all intact. I am familiar with tail rot and also with the fraying caused by other fish nipping and biting of which I have seen none in this case.
<My first guess would be the trigger, those teeth are serious. Otherwise perhaps a hiding crab hungry for a meal.>
This looks nothing like either of those things. I don’t have any crabs or shrimp in my tank that may otherwise seem logical culprits.
<That you know of, crabs hide amazingly well, might want to put out a trap and see if you catch anything.>
For right now, to my amazement, he is swimming well and none of the other fish are acting aggressively toward him.
<If he begins to weaken they will turn on him.>
He even ate his breakfast.
<Good sign.>
He is so fast and small and has so many crevices and caves that he likes to go into where none of the other fish can even get to him so I can’t imagine that during the night he would have allowed himself to remain exposed and still long enough for one of his tank mates to literally chew on him until his tail was completely gone.
<Once in a bolt hole many fish refuse to leave, even if being attacked, have heard plenty of stories of Firefish eaten alive in their holes by crabs.>
He perches in the rock to sleep.
<Ok>
My two questions are as follows: What do you think could have caused this to happen?
<Some other inhabitant, known or unknown.>
At night I have seen some ‘unidentified’ creatures that were somewhat significant in size come out of my live rock and I am wondering if anything living in my rock could have possibly attached itself to Moses while he was perched and sleeping and then ate away at his tail?
<Possible>
That may sound a little bizarre but in my short time (less than one year) in this hobby there has been nothing normal about it to me so far and I don’t think anything would really surprise me at this point!
<The timid get pushed out in the reef, so don't underestimate the tenacity of most reef creatures.>
Secondly, what should I do for my fish, if anything? He is EXTREMELY difficult to catch and, in fact, when we last had to quarantine our fish I thought Moses wasn’t going to make it because it took us days just to get him out of the display tank the first time.
<If he is still eating and no signs of infection I would let him be, no sense adding to his trauma.>
Anyway, any input/advise you may be able to provide would be extremely appreciated.
Have a great day and thanks for your time
~Monica
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Parasite, Alien, Unidentified object on Royal Gramma.....   6/18/07
Hey Bob, Michelle, and the rest of the crew!
<Hi Brandon, Mich with you tonight!>
First of all let me say I hope life is treating you both well since I last had a mixed drink with you both at SWU in Atlanta
<Thanks and you as well!>
and I hope to see ya both at MACNA 19 here fast approaching.
<You will likely see me!>
I have a problem I think it is time to call in an extra set of eyes for.
<My eyes are here, but I'm not seeing any photos!>
We have a member of or reef club that came to me looking for some help on his tank. It is a 210 gal that has basically become a Bryopsis forest with a healthy dose of flatworms at the current moment.
<Ho buoy!!!>
It does have a few fish (Foxface, Royal, and False Perc Clown) and basic soft corals (leather, Kenya tree, few shrooms and some yellow polyps) at the current moment. Upon arriving at his house last night I noticed something odd on his Royal that I can not ID and could not I get a picture of.
<Photographing fish can be a challenge!>
On each side of his upper lip appeared to be a cluster of whiskers. They were only about 1cm long, clear but shinny like fishing line, and about 3-4 per cluster. The appeared to move independently of each other but I assume each cluster was part of the same foreign body. Of course the Royal was scratching so whatever it is is not making life fun for the fish. The fish was a bit skittish (In a Royal, I must be kidding!!!),
<Heee! Ya think they tend to be a little bold, eh?>
so I could not get a good look at what the "whiskers" were attached into. So this is where I turn to ya'll. I need to figure out what these things are and how to treat. I am hoping a simple FW dip
<Does sound like some type of parasitic worm. More here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmdisfaq2.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmdisfaqs.htm
A look through Ed Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis & Treatment" may help. A FW dip would be a good start, you may need to administer an anthelminthic such as Praziquantel. More here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/vermifugefaqs.htm >
and QT period might cure the problem but I got to say, I am not crazy about dipping a Foxface Lo by any means!
<I can't say I blame you there!>
Any help you can give on the matter at hand will net you a rum and coke in Pittsburg Bob... ;)
<Heee! How 'bout a frothy girly drink for Michelle?>
Thanks,
<Welcome! Mich>
Brandon
 

Re: Parasite, Alien, Unidentified object on Royal Gramma..... – 6/19/07
Hey Mich,
<Bob here... prompted as it were, from the depths of fish tanks...>
Thanks for the response. Ya I have been through all those links and can not find anything that sounds like what is affecting this fish. I think I am going to try the route of FW dip with some Meth blue but I wish I had some sort of idea as to what it could be so that I could know its life cycle and impact on the system.
<Need a scope...>
As for Noga's book, believe me, it is a book that I NEED to invest into but an investment it sure is!!! Not light reading and at $120 it is a hefty price tag.
<Mmm, if it were/is expedient, there may be a copy to borrow at a large college library nearby...>
I know Bob has talked to him about lowering the price and if he cuts it in half he would sell a copy to me in a heartbeat!!!
<Agreed... or even put on the Net to download at five dollars, ten? A copy to look/see... Sheesh, why am I NOT a bazillionaire? Oh, right, I have little interest in more money>
All I need to do is talk the library into ordering it! ;)
Anyways, I was hoping Bob would have an idea as well but I guess he is off "working" somewhere. Thanks for the input and I will let you know if/when I can figure out what this thing is!
Brandon
<I've just re-read the prev. corr. and do concur w/ Mich re this likely being some sort of "worm"... and the prospective use of an Anthelminthic... Is this your intention? BobF>
 

Sad Gramma... hlth.,  – 03/15/07 Hey all, You guys have been very helpful in the past, and I hope that streak can continue. I've had my 60 gallon (regular) reef tank for a year now and the inhabitants are: citron goby ocellaris clown yellow-streak fairy wrasse neon goby 2 one-inch Chromis royal Gramma corals: frogspawn, candy cane (aka trumpet), pom-pom xenia, a few zoas. My parameters have always been good and stable (nitrate <5ppm, pH 8.2, temp 79F). The Gramma had always been healthy and happy, though he did hide sometimes. Five months ago, he started hiding all the time and would often not even come out to eat. At that point I noticed the white discoloration shown in the picture. <I see this> I traded in my damsel to try to help reduce the possible stress to him, and started target feeding him in his rock crevice (with a baster) frozen Mysis and flakes soaked in Kent Zoe Marine. It didn't seem to help. Finally I decided to catch him and put him in quarantine so I could treat him and take a picture of him. To me, his disease/injury looks like someone took a piece of chalk sideways and drew on both sides of him. > reading other posts and talking to fish stores, it seems like a skin irritation or injury, <Agreed> so I am treating him with something called Rally by Ruby Reef, <Garbage> which says it is for external bacterial infection and external parasites. It's only been two days but the Gramma is still hiding and not eating. Do you think I'm on the right track here? Is it possible that he's just getting old? <Mmm, yes... but far more likely this fish is mal-affected by some metabolite/s from your Cnidarians... most likely the Zoanthids> I got him from someone that had him for at least 2 years, so he's at least 3. I don't know what else to do besides keeping water quality high and trying to feed him the enriched Mysis. I don't want to overdo the treatment and stress him to death, but he's obviously not happy and I feel I have to try something. Many thanks for your help and insight, Scott p.s. I'm happy with my current piscine inhabitants, but would also like to add another fish down the road, either a flame angel or anthias bass (lyretail or Hawaiian bicolor) or both. Good fit? <Mmm, no... this system is too small> Do flame angels tend to nip on mainly SPS polyps or on all corals (like mine)? <Read on my friend... Re Cnidarian and Zoanthid allelopathy, Centropyge loricula... all posted on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Royal Gramma With Parasite 1/26/07
Hi,
<Hello Phil>
I have a problem regarding a royal Gramma, I cannot seem to find it in your FAQs.
I've had the royal Gramma for 1 week now, The other night I saw it bashing its head hard against the live rocks, so I thought I'd have a look with the magnifying glass, on its right eye there's a tiny white worm looking thing moving round the bottom of its eye, I just wondered if its anything to be concerned about .The fish itself seems fine and eating ok.
<Have you search the FAQ section on disease/parasite control?  I'd put the Gramma in QT and treat with a
parasitic type medication.  Copper should do the trick.> <<Mmmm. RMF>>
Any help at all would be great.
thanks, Phil.
<You're welcome.  In future queries, please do a grammar check.  We just don't have the time to correct/edit queries before placing in the dailies.  Thanks,
James (Salty Dog)>

Swim Bladder problem with Royal Gramma    11/27/06
Hey Crew,
<Hey AJ, JustinN with you today>
Two days ago, I noticed telltale signs of ich in my tank, white spots and cloudy eyes on my Royal Gramma, and both it and my purple firefish were  rubbing on the rocks and substrate. I set up a quarantine tank using water from  the display, matching temp, etc., based on this site's recommendations, treated the water with copper following the solution's directions, and proceeded to move  the two fish into the quarantine tank.
<All sounds good here>
The firefish is doing well and after a brief hunger strike is taking frozen brine again.
<Do try mysis shrimp as well, if you don't already. Brine shrimp are like potato chips for fish, whereas mysis contains essential nutrients.>
However, the Gramma is floating on his side near the top of the tank and seems to be very  lethargic.
<Mmm, not good>
Every once in a while he will swim all over the place, then stop and  float to the surface again. Is this indicative of a swim bladder problem,  possibly caused by the transfer to the new tank? Or is it more likely just a  sign of stress? If it's the former, is there anything I can do for it? He did  not have this problem before the move, but as soon as he was in the QT tank it  began.
Thanks,
AJ
<AJ, this sounds like a water quality issue in the QT tank. Do you have chemically inert hiding places provided for both fish? Are you performing water changes and testing for ammonia/nitrites/nitrates? Do remember, you are treating with copper which will kill any beneficial bacteria in the tank, thus making water changes crucial. Hope this helps you! -JustinN>

Injured royal Gramma   11/15/06
Greetings, all --
<Hello there!>
My 37g tall FOWLR suffered a broken middle support so I got an identical take to move all my water, tomato clown, royal Gramma, and live rock.  Everything went perfectly well except for one incident: the royal Gramma was in a rock
that we pulled out.  A few seconds later we heard her flopping around, and it took us about 15 seconds to identify which rock she was inside and submerge it in aquarium water.
Today (about 14 hours later) the clown is swimming about, eating and appears to be perfectly fine, but the Gramma does is not her usual self.  She is usually hiding, does not swim around much, I can see some lighter patches on her, perhaps injuries from the rock? My question is basically, what should I do?  If it's a physical injury, will it heal, and in how long?  Is there anything I can do to help her out?  What should I be looking out for?
<I'm sure the Gramma is traumatized, if not physically injured.  The lighter patches you refer to could well be cuts from the rock, or could just be stress lines. I would usually suggest quarantining the affected fish, but I'm afraid trying to catch her would cause even more stress (we have a Brazilian Gramma, and I know how crafty they can be in avoiding the net!)  I would suggest now keeping a very close eye on the Gramma in her usual tank, making sure she is eating (perhaps even soak the food in vitamin supplements or garlic oil) and keeping the tank water *extremely* clean.  I suspect the injuries will heal under good husbandry, but keep a close watch to ensure no secondary bacterial infections set in.>
Thanks!
- Chad
<You're welcome.  I'm sure your Gramma will recover given proper conditions...give her some time, she's been through a big ordeal!! Good luck, Jorie>

Sick royal Gramma   3/28/06  
Hey guys, How are you? I recently added my royal Gramma to my tank after quarantine and it is doing fine but I am noticing its tail is becoming cloudy. I want to nip this in the butt early but I have a 30 gallon filled with LR and established corals. Whenever I go to get him out he darts way back in the tank.
<Oh yes>
Iv heard of melafix and am not ready to use that because Iv read that no one really knows if its really reef safe.
<Isn't worth using>
My question what can I do to fix this. He eats great and is very healthy except for the tail. Tank parameters are
(ammonia-0 ph-8.3 -nitrate-0- nitrite-o -calcium 400 ppm (lighting is 150 HQI with 2 65 watt PC actinics.)
<... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/grammadisfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Is My Royal Gramma Dying?  - 03/13/2006
My first fish, a Royal Gramma (I have had him 4 days) has stopped eating and coming out of the rocks.
<Do this sometimes...>
Friday he was eating and looked okay when he WOULD come out, but he hides in
the rocks so much I hardly ever see him.
Saturday he never came out except for once to go from one rock hole to the
other and never ate anything that I saw. I have been feeding him Mysis Shrimp soaked in garlic.
<Maybe fears bad breath...>
Friday morning the tank temperature had gone up to 82.5 when I got up so I
unplugged one of the heaters and by Saturday the temp had gone back down to
78.4. This morning it is 79.4 so I don't think the temp change would have been that bad.
My water tests fine, PH8.2, Ammonia-0, Nitrate-0, Nitrate-0. The SG 1.024.
I did have a diatom problem start on Thursday but it really doesn't look that bad and the water is still fine.
I am worried that the fish is sick, he doesn't look sick from outward
appearance as much as I can tell as he doesn't come out long enough to check
now. When he goes into the rock holes though he just lays on the rock.
Should I just wait and see if he dies and how long can he not eat before he
will die just of starvation if nothing else? Is he lonely in there all by himself?
<I would wait this out... likely the changes you mention are at play here... can go w/o apparent feeding for a few weeks. Bob Fenner>
Suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I really hate to lose my first
fish for no apparent reason and have no idea why I would with the water
tests I have. Oh, btw, no he wasn't quarantined by me but had been in the
LFS for a week and a half and was eating well even at home for the first
couple of days.
Thanks

Bizarre Growth, Epsom Salt, and More - 11/29/2005
Bob,
<Actually, Sabrina with you, in his stead.>
You've helped me before regarding Popeye and Epsom salt. I'm wondering if you can suggest something again. 
<We'll sure try, Paul!>
My Royal Gramma has developed a clear, bulbous tumor inside its mouth over the last two months and while it is still active and eating, the tumor has doubled in size (bigger than a pea and the fish is only 3" long). It now swims with its mouth open at all times and although seems to not be bothered by it, I know if it gets much bigger it won't be able to eat and may even invade its gills. 
<Clear.... you mean, you can see through this? Like a blister? Or is it in/under the skin?>
Will Epsom salt shrink this thing or would something else work? 
<I would try Epsom salt, yes - but I also am concerned that it may possibly be a "goiter", from an iodine deficiency, which can be treated by supplementing iodine/iodide (I believe Bob usually recommends Lugol's solution) for several weeks, a few months....>
Could I possibly suck the tumor away with a syringe? 
<I don't think I would risk this.>
I think that would probably scare the fish to death even if I could hold still long enough to pull that off. 
<You would need to sedate the animal to do such a thing.... really, I advise against it, unless it becomes a life-or-death situation.>
Its color is excellent and as I said, is healthy. 
<Good signs, to be sure.>
I want to try and treat it before it gets to where its energy would make it detrimental to move to a quarantine tank. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!
<I would research the iodine issue, were I in your shoes, and try adding Epsom.>
Paul
<Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

Dancing and Glancing Gramma 11/13/05
Hi WWB crew,
<<WWB?  Who are they?>><WetWebBrew? Yay!>
<<Hello - Ted here this evening>>
First off thanks for the great site and info.
<<Thanks. Glad you find it helpful>>
My royal Gramma regularly, at least once an hour, makes a quick and what seems to be planned rub up against a few select spots on my live rock. He has done this for well over a year and I have never seen any white spots indicating an Ich infection. He is very fat and healthy in every other regard. Any thoughts on why he would be doing this? Could it be a different type of parasite, an itchy spot, a fun hobby for him?
<<It could be some other parasite. It could also be hunting behavior and he may be trying to dislodge crustaceans from the rock. If he is eating and otherwise behaving normally, I wouldn't be concerned.>>
My other 4 fishes (3 green Chromis and Lawn mower blenny) all seem to be in great health. I would like to add a purple tang to my tank but I am concerned that ich or a different problem may be present in my main tank based the royal Gramma's behavior.
<<Not knowing the size of your tank, it is hard to comment on the advisability of adding a Purple Tang. Bear in mind that Purple Tangs require lots of swimming room and can grow to 10 inches.>>
I have considered moving all the fish over to a QT and leaving the display tank empty for 45 days to break the ich cycle, if it exists, but I am hesitant to do so based solely off the weird behavior of the RG. Catching the royal Gramma would probably require me to tear apart the LR structure, disrupting the entire tank. I have not QT'd in the past (yes I am ashamed) 
<<Yes, but are you suitably ashamed?>>
so it is possible that ich could have been imported in to my tank. I am planning on using a QT (per method defined here on WWM) for the new tang, if and when I get it.
<<Do the other inhabitants seem healthy? If so, then quarantine any new additions to prevent the introduction of disease to your healthy system. If some fish seem sick, then take the sick fish from the system and treat them in a separate tank and do not add any new fish until all the other inhabitants are healthy.>>
Any thoughts on this matter would be appreciated. Thank you for your time and have a great day.
Shad Shriver
<<You're welcome and good luck. - Ted>> 

Royal Gramma's Lip Ripped 10/12/05
Hi,
<Hey, Mike G with you tonight.>
This morning when I went to feed my fish I noticed my royal Gramma's lip is torn off half way (still attached but floating off) the grammas top teeth are exposed. 
<Ouch.>
It wasn't like this last night. I have had this fish for about 9 years now (I am very attached to him).
<Wow!>
About two years ago, I added a yellow citron goby
<Peaceful harmless (unless you're an Acro). Not suspect.>
pair of false clowns 
<Doubtful they are behind this.>
a six line wrasse
<Maybe, probably not.>
and a brittle starfish (brown with black bands around the legs).
<If this guy went for the Gramma, more than his lip would be missing!>
I also have a pair of cleaner shrimps
<No cause for alarm.>
a small emerald crab
<Have heard of big emeralds attacking fish in hope of a meal. Not common.>
and random hermit crabs
<Most are harmless, some are not. "Random Hermits" are hit or miss.>
There is also a stowaway pistol shrimp somewhere in the rocks (only seen it once did not
purchase been there for about 2 years also).
<Have had a tang lose an eye to a pugnacious Alpheus once before. Still, most a re totally harmless.>
Everybody has always got along alright.
<Until now.>
I would first like to know if my Gramma is going to be able to live without its lip or will he grow a new one?
<If infection is avoided (MelaFix is good for this), the fish should be able to cope fine. Keep the water quality up, watch for the perpetrator.>
Second do you have any idea what could of happened and what I should look out for.
<Honestly, the mix you have does not really lend to any lip-rippers. I'm prepared to dismiss it as freak chance or a hitch hiker you never knew about. Do keep an eye out, though.>
Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated,
<Welcome. Best of luck! Mike G> 

- Royal Gramma Spots -
Hello,
Thank you so much for answering so many questions for all of us novices out there.  My husband and I have a 26 gallon reef tank that has been in operation for three months.  All of our water parameters seem to be fine. Our Royal Gramma has recently started showing small white spots on its head and tail.  The spots are not raised and do not look like ich that I have seen on other fish.  It does not have these spots in the morning when the lights come on, however, during the course of the day the spots slowly start to appear.  By the end of the day the fish shows signs that the spots bother it by repeatedly scratching on the rocks.  The fish is not showing any other signs of stress and has been eating fine.
We have a cleaner shrimp that the fish goes to at least twice a day.  Its only other tank mates are a Sailfin Blenny, turbo snails, 2 scarlet crabs, 2 blue hermits, 4 margarita snails, 2 Astrea snails, 2 zebra snails, and 5 Nassarius snails.  We also have assorted zoo's and a frogspawn coral.  
Are these spots some other sort of parasite that attaches when the lights are on. <In my opinion it is most likely ich.> Should we try a freshwater dip to alleviate the problem. <I think that would be a good course of action at this point. Don't spend too long trying to catch the fish, though - if you can't catch it in five minutes or so, try again tomorrow.> The blenny does not seem to have the spots, however, it is harder to see because of his coloration. I would appreciate any input you could give me. <See how things go after the dip, see if the cleaner shrimp can keep things in check. Prepare a quarantine tank just in case.> Thank you for your time.
Beth
<Cheers, J -- >

- Royal Gramma Woes -
Good Evening and I hope that you might have some ideas after hearing my sordid tale of woe. I have an 80 gal marine tank with the following parameters: Spg 1.25, NH4=0, NO2=0, N03=0, pH=8.0, CA=410, temp=80, PO4=.1, about 80lbs live rock which is well coralline encrusted, deep sand bed, Remora pro skimmer w/Mag 3 and a wet and dry. Running carbon and PolyFilter. In addition to the pumps running the skimmer and wet and dry I have a Seio 640(I think) in the tank for additional flow. 
Current inhabitants, pyramidellid snail, two emerald crabs, one cleaner shrimp, one ocellaris clown doing very well and one relatively happy fox face, Halimeda growing in tank along with some red algae. I did have a nice royal Gramma. Tank is up about two years and lighting is NO. Recently lost the Gramma, I think to intimidation by the fox face, not that the fox face had ever shown any interest in the Gramma. 
Nevertheless from the time the fox face arrived the Gramma starting spending more time in his lair and avoided feeding when the fox face was around, that his he would stay in the lower part of the water column and pick up the scraps. Tried a variety of techniques in timing of feeding to try to get the fox face out of the picture but none were successful. Although the Gramma was eating something it simply was not enough. Eventually color, especially the purple on the top of the head started to fade and he would come out of his burrow in the rock less and less often. He passed about two weeks ago. 
<Sorry to hear of your loss.> 
Very sad, helpless feeling. Last Sunday went to local LFS and talked with them re this. They thought it strange and felt that perhaps there was a personality issue. 
<Yes, would agree... the Gramma just did not adjust well to having a larger fish in the tank.> 
I decided to try again and bought another Gramma. Fish looked in excellent condition, active, eating, alert etc. Had been in LFS for three weeks and I was previously told that they run copper in their system. Took fish home spent an hour and a half acclimating (Yes I know I should have quarantined), turned off lights, dumped out bag water, placed fish in tank. Three days later found him on the bottom dead as a door nail. Anyone want to venture some thoughts? 
<Coincidence... did you see the fish eat at the store? Sometimes two weeks at the store is ok, and the third week is the beginning of the end. Also, many fish don't exhibit external signs that they are in fact on the way out. I think you just got a bad one.> 
that is aside from the quarantine issue. Oh yeah one other thing, I do weekly 10% water changes. Thanks for your input.
<I'd encourage you to try again - make sure you see the fish eat before you take it home. I know you skirted the quarantine issue, but let me assure you, this is not just for disease prevention but also for the fish to catch a rest away from kids tapping on the glass and people pointing fingers at them. Going directly into a tank with larger, competitive fish can add stress upon stress, and this can cause a turn for the worse. In a quarantine tank, the fish have time to learn your feeding routine and you have the chance to get them acclimated to the foods you want to feed vs. the foods they are used to eating. Cheers, J -- > 

Royal Gramma health
Hello,
First off, you guys rock! 
<live rock, that is!>
Now to unashamedly take advantage of your brains.
<quick... before the recreational drugs take their toll!>
I recently purchased a Royal Gramma from my LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta, GA.). I introduced the fish into my tank as the first and only occupant except for a small cleanup crew of snails and hermits which has been doing fine (it is a ten gallon FOWLR and this will be the only fish I keep). The tank had cycled for 1 month with live rock and all water tests were nominal before adding the Gramma. Immediately after introducing the fish into the tank, I noticed that its face had a slight white/glaze looking color covering just part of the face near one eye. I assumed that the fish came with this color variation from the store so I immediately called the fish store and asked if I should bring it back but they said to watch it and make sure it doesn't change and that some of the fish naturally have color variations. 
<eh... not really white, but onward...>
I know that this particular fish store keeps their livestock salinity at something near half of the .025 value, so probably .0125 and that they also copper their water. 
<fine for some fishes...quite stressful for many others. I favor lower salinity for fish only systems, but no lower than 1.017 without a very good reason. I would strongly discourage you from buying wrasses or dwarf angels from this system for example as they will be very stressed>
The fish had been at the store for over two weeks when I purchased it. 
<very good>
This kind of makes me doubt that it was sick coming from the store but I am unsure of the color on its nose.
<don't be so sure... a full month is a proper QT and disease can wait to be expressed after two weeks easily. These newly imported fishes are quite stressed>
Over the next 3 days in my tank, the fish ate well (twice a day) and moved about normally even when I was near the tank. Yesterday there seemed to be a change in habit. I wasn't able to feed it in the morning since I had to go to work early, but when I got home and fed the fish (mix of many types of small meats including Mysid shrimp, all soaked in Zoe) it didn't come out to eat. I kept the room lights off and watched the fish but it did not come out at all throughout the evening. From what I can tell at this point, the fish hasn't come out for two days now (but I am gone to work for a good 8 hours) and sits under a rock moving only half an inch or so at most to reposition. This seems very abnormal compared to the habits of the fish for the first 3 days. 
<agreed>
I haven't been able to really tell if the white/gloss on its nose has changed because it stays under the rock. From what I can see the color hasn't seemed to spread over the body. I began to wonder if
my aragonite substrate was simply rubbing off on the fish's nose as it dug out a home under the live rock. 
<unlikely>
I perform weekly 10% water changes and also have a Prizm skimmer that produces a small amount of dark gunk daily (not a cup but then it is only a 10 gallon). I also have a HOB filter for water
circulation and a Microjet mc450 that is moving 117 gph. My real question is, should I be concerned at this point? 
<tough to say without a better look at the fish but it is still yet another piece of evidence in support of quarantining all new fish in a bare-bottomed QT tank in case meds are needed. 2 weeks in the pet shop were helpful, but who's to say that your fish wasn't caught with a net that just came out of a tank of new or sick fishes? Was the fish alone for 2 weeks too or had new shipments been added to the tank... or worse... was the fish in a central filtration system? That fish had almost no practical QT stay. It is a strict rule that all livestock should be quarantined unless a life threatening emergency negates the need (rare)>
Also, at what point is it considered 'not the fish store's problem' with most quality fish shops? 
<never assume that a LFS livestock is clean. If they QT'ed all fish like we should, then likely you and most people would not want to pay for the expense of them setting up and keeping 5 full weeks of inventory in rotation and separately quarantined. Assume it is your responsibility from go but do play the deposit game with them and hold the fish as long as you can at their shop>
I don't know if it is appropriate to bring the fish back since it seemed to come with the odd color on its nose. 
<good heavens my friend... please don't move it yet or be so willing or whimsical to move any fish or coral so quickly. It may kill such an animal that otherwise just needs some time to settle in. Moving animals is VERY stressful. That's another reason why QT of your own is so important. Put the fish in a good place (QT) the first time and leave it alone (4 weeks). Once acclimated to your husbandry it can be moved to the main display without fear of infecting the whole collection (albeit small/new in this case). >
Thank you for your time and information. Andy Weaver
<you are quite welcome my friend... do read up in our WetWebMedia archives on diseases and QT protocol for preparedness. Do call again if an unclear symptom manifests. Best regards, Anthony>

Sick Royal Gramma
Hi guys,
<Sorry for the delay Steve>
I would like to ask your advice about something please.  Here's the
situation:
About 6 weeks ago I bought a Royal Gramma which I dipped in FW (buffered,
aerated and temp. adjusted) for 7 min.s before putting in a 10 gal. QT.   
After 2 days, the RG showed signs of velvet so I immediately began a copper
treatment.  The treatment lasted 19 days at a concentration of 0.25-0.30.   
The RG responded very well and quickly to the treatment.  I left him 13 days
in QT after the end of the treatment and it showed no signs of the parasite,
so I put him in my MT last Thursday.
<Potential problem here. The 4-6 wk QT time starts over AFTER all signs are gone>
On Friday, I got a Flame Angel which I also dipped in FW for 8.5 min.s before
putting in a 10 gal. QT.  The Angel is doing well (also eating well) for now
and has been in QT for 5 full days.
The problem is the RG in the MT is now showing 4-5 ick spots, I can't
understand how this happened?  What do you think I should do?  Should I:
a) Leave the Angel in the QT and give FW dips to the RG putting him back in
the MT after each dip and maybe add a cleaner shrimp to help him out?
<This would be an option if it does not stress the fish too much to catch it>
b) Remove the Angel from the QT (even if it's only 5 days), FW dip him for
10 min.s and put him in the MT, allowing me to remove the RG from the MT to
administer a second copper treatment in QT?  Maybe I should add a cleaner
shrimp in this scenario as well to help prevent an outbreak since the
parasite is now in the MT?
<I would not advise this. The flame needs QT>
c) Any other suggestions?
<I would put the Gramma back into QT and keep the water as pristine as you can>
Other inhabitants in MT are a small false percula and a small 4-stripe
damsel.  I feed my fish Formula 1 and 2 and Tetra Marine Flakes, varying
their diet to try to boost their immune system.
Of the cleaner shrimps, is there one which is more efficient between the
white stripe cleaner and the blood/fire shrimp?  
<I like the white stripe cleaner>
Also, it is not clear on
your website how much and how often I should be adding iodide to help the
shrimp molt?  Due to the situation, do you think I could do without a QT for
the shrimp (maybe just a rinse in a bucket of system water?)?
<No need to QT shrimp. I don't add anything (other than regular weekly water
changes) and my shrimp molt every 3 weeks or so>
You have to understand that I had a complete tank wipeout due to ick or
velvet 4 months ago so I left the tank fallow for 4 weeks and having learned
my lesson now follow the QT and dip procedures recommended on your website.   
I am extremely discouraged and do not want to go through another wipeout and
start everything over a third time.  Help!
<Steve, can you get a thermometer that records hi and low over a period of time?
Extreme temperature swings (more than 2-3 degrees F) can cause a stress to allow
the ick to get hold. Check it out. Don>
Thank you for your response.  Frustrated Steve.

Gramma In Distress?
I have a 180 gal. reef with about 8 fish, only the Royal Gramma is showing signs of disease.  About three weeks ago the Gramma lost it's tail. I initially thought something was picking on it but I never noticed any aggression between the fish.  They have all been in this tank for over 1 year.
Now the Gramma's tail is growing back and there is a white film covering the front 1/3 and the fish is itching on rocks. I can't remove this fish, I've tried to trap it but it's too shy.  What is
this and how can I treat it??  
Frustrated In GR Tom
<Well, Tom- it sounds like some sort of bacterial or fungal problem from the appearance and circumstances involved, but the scratching seems indicative of a parasitic ailment. If it is, indeed Amyloodinium, then you may notice other signs, such as rapid breathing, dashing around the tank, and difficulty swimming. At this point, if trapping the fish is impractical or impossible, you may have to run the risk of letting nature take its course, and hope that maintaining great water conditions and a steady environment will do the job. There is also the huge potential of a total infestation of your aquarium, if the malady does turn out to be Amyloodinium. My best advice- also the most aggravating: Break down the decor and get the fish out for observation and/or treatment in a separate aquarium. This basically sucks, I know- but it seems infinitely preferable to a potential wipe out in your tank. You could observe the for another several days, to see if any other problems manifest, but action is definitely required if this is one of parasitic diseases that we discussed. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Royal Grammas Keep Dying
I have a dogface puffer, percula clown, and watchman goby that get along fine. I then added a small royal Gramma that died within 2 days. Water was fine, fish seemed fine at the end of the first day and the second day seemed fine until I saw it deceased.  The next week after a water change and check after a couple of days I went to LFS and bought a larger one thinking maybe the small one was too weak (young). Same thing happened only 3 days later. I have several small blue legs living and took my water to LFS for testing several times to be sure my tests kit are accurate. I acclimate them just as suggested and I saw no signs of attack. What do you think?
<If all tests are fine and all of the other fish are doing fine, I suspect you are just having bad luck with this fish. Maybe try a different store?>
Am I just a murderer?
<Ouch! I hope not! Do you quarantine your fish? That would give a little Gramma time to get comfortable with captivity before it gets thrown in with the other established fish>
I would like to stock my tank 65 gal-60lbs LR, LS, wet/dry, protein skimmer, and power compact. Please help me I don't want to kill anymore. Jill
<Just sounds like you've had bad luck. Keep the faith...David Dowless>

Sudden Fish Death
Hi
<<Hello, JasonC here...>>
Three days ago I bought a royal Gramma and today he hid all day in "his" coral. A short while ago, he emerged from the coral and began thrashing about wildly, eventually chasing his tail all over the tank, splashing around at the surface for a minute, and then he sank, mouth wide open gills motionless, fins frozen wide open. When I netted him, he was already stiff. There were/are no visible signs of a problem until this sudden death today. Do you have any idea as to what may have happened to him? <<Hmm... that is a bit of a mystery. Were you home all day to observe this day of hiding? My first suspect would be some type of environmental contagion - do you smoke cigarettes? Did anyone clean the glass in/near/around the tank? Did you feed this fish before this happened? There are many possibilities of this nature. It's also possible, although less likely that this poor creature had a genetic problem, or was cyanide caught, but these fish are typically pretty durable. I'd look first for household causes as these are the most likely culprit in "sudden" deaths like this - you will need to be the detective on the scene. Sorry to hear of your loss.>>
Thanks, Patrick
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Sick Basslet
Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Steven Pro today.>
I have a thirty-five gallon tank and up till now have had very healthy fish. I am very upset however because three or four days ago I noticed a white spot on the lower jaw of my fairy Basslet. I called the dealer I buy my fish from and told him about it. He said he didn't think it sounded like ick and for me to just watch it. Well last night, I noticed that the Basslet had little white spots all over his body and he is rubbing himself against the sand. I've never had to treat ick before and I don't know the best medicine to buy.
<Quarantine and treat with copper.>
Also should I treat him in a hospital tank?
<Absolutely!>
I know that the medicine would be toxic to my invertebrates, but what about my other fish (two clowns and a Sailfin tang)? Will they end up with ick too?
<Possible>
Should I sacrifice the invertebrates and treat my whole tank
<No, never.>
or just isolate my Basslet?
<First isolate and treat the Basslet, cross your fingers, but be prepared to quarantine everyone. Do see our extensive writings on www.WetWebMedia.com regarding parasitic infections.>
Thank you. Very concerted, Laura
<Good luck! -Steven Pro>

Re: sick Basslet
Thanks for the quick reply.
<You are welcome.>
I'll quarantine the Basslet ASAP!
<Good!>
Ummm, if the others end up with ick too, can I put all four of them in a five gallon tank for treatment for an extended amount of time? Laura
<No, that is too small. You will need at least 20 gallons for your fish. -Steven Pro>

Mystery Malady
Help WWM strange-disease guru:
<Ho about "WWM Strange Guru"? Scott F. here today!>
I have a Royal Gramma that looks exactly like it was tagged by a porcupine. There are dozens of very fine, clear-ish with a bit-of-white needles about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch long poking out of its left eye, left eye socket, and mouth. The fish seems unchanged behavior wise (normal and healthy.)
<Weird...Sounds almost like some kind of external fungal infection>
I cannot find anything on your site about what this might be. I did
recently introduce a purple Gorgonian that this Gramma likes to swim around and through; perhaps the Gorgonian has something to do with this? Any help is most appreciated, SLC
<Well, before you rush in and administer medications, I'd observe this fish for a while longer. It may be that you'll see this material clear out on its own. On the other hand, if it begins to interfere with the fish's ability to eat, etc., then you may need to take some action. I'd operate on the assumption (and it IS an assumption) that you are dealing with some sort of fungal disease, and treat with appropriate medication in a separate aquarium...Keep an eye on this fish to make sure that things don't progress. Good luck! Regards, ScottF>

Stranger Than Fiction...(Follow-up To Mystery Malady)
Scott F: Thanks for the reply. I took your advice and did nothing, just carefully observing my R.G.'s state. The mysterious needles went away completely within a day or so.
Strange....
SLC
<Sometimes, doing nothing is better than doing something...Nothing ever surprises me in this hobby any more! Take care! Scott F.>

Royal Gramma with Tan Mark on Mouth
>Sorry to bother you but I could not get through on the message board for a follow-up to my original post.
>>Lately, not an uncommon problem.  Marina to help, and no worries, eh?
>I have a Royal Gramma 4 days into its acclimation quarantine.  
>>Ah, you're warming my heart with those words.
>It has remained in the corners or behind the heater the entire time except when feeding.  
>>Have you provided cover in the form of PVC pieces and elbows?  This will go a long way towards reducing its overall stress levels, and they are EASILY sterilized for next time.
>It did have one nip out of its tail when I picked him up but
that seems to be doing fine.  The problem is I noticed some tan mark or small growth right on its mouth tonight.  When I went to check later it was twitching in the bottom corner of the tank.  
>>Puzzling..
>What might be wrong and what should I being doing to help it?
>>It's difficult for me to say without seeing the animal.  Do try the boards again, but I would definitely recommend reducing the salinity level to around 1.010, just to rule out parasites.  If this is something else (bacterial/viral infection), then hypo won't affect it much.  At this point, ensure water quality is best, provide the cover for the fish, and observe.  Have some Spectrogram on hand in case you decide there's a bacterial infection present, if it's viral we hooman beans have nothing to treat ourselves, let alone fish.  Best of luck, Marina

Royal Gramma with tan mark on mouth, II
>Marina,
Thanks for getting back to me.  
>>Very welcome.
>I will go the hyposalinity route starting tonight.  I have had PVC in the tank since it was set up but until today he has not used it.  Twitching seems to no longer be an issue.  I admit I turned on the light that night to "get another look" just before the twitching occurred.  Tan spot also seems smaller but I
reduce the salinity in any case.  Other than spot, Gramma eats well and seems to be in good health.  John
>>Your most important indicators.  Good luck, I'm sure the animal will be fine.  Marina

Royal Gramma In A Royal Mess
Hi crew,
<Scott F. here today>
You have been helpful in the past so I will try again. I have a 10 gallon (too small as you told me before) with a Royal Gramma, a Sixline Wrasse, a Clown Goby and a Rainfordi besides snails and hermits. Water quality good except nitrates about 20. I went on vacation and on the first day my daughter told me that the Gramma was not swimming around as usual but was hiding in his night spot. Eventually she saw a bulging eye and he was not eating. When I got back two weeks later he is alive but not more than that. He was on the bottom this morning barely breathing. There was no eye
as far as I can tell. I can not get a view to see his other side and he is back in his night spot. Now that I checked about eye problems I see that Epsom salt may have helped. At this point can anything be done to save him. He does not seem to be eating.
<I'm sorry to hear about the sad state of this fish. If you're getting good results with Epsom salts, then there is a good possibility that the fish suffered some sort of injury. As far as the lack of appetite and low respiration are concerned, this could be caused by many different things, ranging from a parasitic illness to environmental conditions. If possible, I'd remove this fish to a separate tank for further observation and possible treatment, if needed. Once of the best things that you can do is to provide a quiet tank and clean water. Keep trying to get him to eat. Perhaps you could administer some aquarium vitamin preparation directly to the water in this tank to help provide some nutrition and stimulate eating. Let us know if other symptoms manifest themselves. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Royal Gramma scare!!
Hello there,
  I've visited the website plenty of times and I get plenty of great advice but this time. I'm stumped. I recently put up a 12 gallon nano cube marine setup and I have a FOWLR set up. I just got a royal Gramma yesterday and today he was swimming around and eating and we went out for dinner tonight and we came home and I looked in the tank and too my surprise he was sucked up next to the filter and my mother kinda poked him to see if he was awake and sure enough he swam off and fled to his little cave. My question is do royal grammas usually need a babysitter for a while? Even though I've heard plenty that they're very hardy fish and can take care of themselves. I'm just scared that he's going to up and die on me in the next week or so. we've had a string of bad luck with our marine tanks. we've done everything to take care of all of our fish but everything seems to go wrong at the worst possible times. We had a 110 gallon setup and it got ich the first time and wiped out almost everything except the inverts! :( so we sold that tank and moved out of state and we just got this nano cube last month and now it seems the bad luck has followed us. any advice on their behavior and any signs we must look for that this fish is getting sick would surely help. and anything you can think of as to why he got sucked up at the filter and he lived to go back to his home. would help also!   Thanks so much for your time! Erin
P.S. All levels are good and the tanks been up for a month now if that helps any!
>Hello Erin,
To start off with, having an ich outbreak that wipes your tank out has more to do with husbandry procedures (or lack of them) than bad luck most of the time. Always quarantine your fish before introducing them into the display. Secondly, about your Gramma - what kind of filter are you speaking of? There isn't always a logical reason of these things. As far as if he's sick or not, is he alert? Is he eating? Is his color good? Any spots or discoloration?
Cheers
Jim<

Royal Gramma Fin Rot part 2 3/22/05
I checked all water quality parameters including nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia and everything was undetectable. The pH is 8.2 and the water temperature is 77 degrees. The fish did not develop the fin rot until after I did my first water change (9 days after I got the fish) on the quarantine tank. 
<Your water quality sounds fine, although there are many things that can affect water quality that we don't ever test for. Keep up water changes in the 20% per month range.>
It was pretty freaked out when I was doing the water change so I wonder if this stress could have caused it to get the fin rot? My other conclusion is that the fish might have scrapped it's tail on a rock that I have in the tank for it to hide under and with the added stress developed the condition. 
<Such infections often do start from an injury, but I agree with Bob that some other stress must be present to allow the infection to take hold.>
I am feeding it formula one flake food, and it eats very well. Is this Ok nutrition wise for the fish? I have tried some meaty frozen foods, but it doesn't eat them as well. I end up trying to scoop out what it has left at the bottom, and this seems to stress the fish. 
<This is a good quality food, but variety is the spice of life! Do try Sally's (San Francisco) brand Brine shrimp plus and Piscine Energetics Mysis shrimp as well as bits of squid. All are high in HUFAs and other important nutrients.>
The black smudge that is on the side of the fish seems to be fading, do you know what it could be? <Hard to guess, but it is encouraging that it is getting better.>
Is there anything else you recommend that I do for the fish? I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my e-mail. Thanks,
Thresa. 
<Good food and good water quality are paramount. If it is getting better (even slowly), simply continue on. If it gets worse, you could try antibiotics, but I would avoid them if at all possible for many reasons, especially the fact that they also kill beneficial bacteria as well as the fact that the disease organism can develop resistance. Best Regards. AdamC.>

Sick Gramma follow up 3/30/05
Thanks for the advice and I will give the fish food that you mentioned a try. What are the other water quality issues that could be causing the problem? I work in a water quality lab so I might be able to test for them. 
<Potassium, Magnesium, Sulfate, Iodine, etc. are all things that are biologically important but rarely tested for. Also, the presence of just about any chemical (household chemicals, oils, pesticides, etc.) could theoretically cause problems. These are admittedly unlikely possibilities, but regular water changes are a great way to eliminate any of them at one time.>
My quarantine tank is a 30 gallon tall tank that was given to me, could this cause the dissolved oxygen to be too low? If so could this be the source of the problem? I keep a live rock in there with the fish, I know it's not good to keep live rock in a quarantine tank, but I had an extra one. 
<Low DO is a possibility if water movement is inadequate, especially at night when no photosynthesis is occurring. You can use pH as an indicator of gas exchange. Test the pH right before the lights come on in the morning. Take another sample outdoors and aerate it well. If the pH rises more than about .1, CO2 is accumulated (and O2 likely low.).>
I really want to resolve the underlying problem, because I plan on quarantining more fish in this tank once the Gramma gets better and is moved to the main tank. Again I really appreciate you taking the time to address my questions. Thanks, Thresa 
<If the pH test indicates poor gas exchange, the addition of an airstone or more water movement may solve the problem. Otherwise, I would suggest regular water changes along with good general husbandry. Best Regards. AdamC.>