|
HLLE Related To Stray
Voltage?
Ground probe 3/20/09
Hello crew and thanks for all the great advice.
<You're welcome.>
The question has been asked before regarding the value of a ground
probe.
I am in agreement with the argument that the probe completes the circuit
and the resulting flow of
current is a bigger problem from a fish and human safety perspective. I
have a 125g FOWLR with powerheads and heaters in the main tank and the
following fish: Powder Brown (A. japonicus), Tomini Tang, Flame Angel
and an Assasi Triggerfish. The Powder Brown, Flame Angel and Assai are
fine,
but the Tomini has what appears to be mild HLLE on his forehead and it
has been very slowly increasing in size for the past 6 months. Also the
behavior of the Tomini is more reclusive then active, color is good and
seems to only like to eat New Life Spectrum pellets along with grazing
the rock and tank walls. I feed a varied diet ( New Life Spectrum
various pellet formulas, Nori, Formula II, Mysis and supplement with
Selcon). I decided to try the ground probe and I have noticed an
immediate change in behavior. The Tomini is more active and less
reclusive and now regularly eats Nori. The mild HLLE seems to be slowly
improving, but its to early to be certain. The other fish have not
changed their behavior. The equipment
in the tank is working fine and all are connected to GFIs. I plan to
experiment some more to better confirm if the ground probe addition is
the primary reason for the change in behavior. I also speculate that if
the
ground probe is a benefit then maybe the Tomini is just more sensitive
to very low electric fields relative to the other species in my tank.
The question is has there been any new information on this topic that
may help
clear up the controversy or is this still just a myth?
No myth, has been cited several times/places and your experience does
not surprise me.
If you had any stray voltage/current in your tank it would be very low
due to your GFIC protection. GFIC's will trip when a difference of 5
milliamps (.005 A) is detected. Simply said, if .25 amps are going out
to the
component, .25 better be coming back or the GFI will trip. As to new
info on HLLE, none that I'm aware of. Do some Googling, and thank you
for sharing your experience with us.>
Thanks again.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Fish Recommendation for a reef, grounding probe maint., Clown comp.
12/5/08
Second question; Is it a problem if my grounding
probe gets covered in algae?
<Mmm, not really... or at least not
much>
<And Neale has responded to your FW queries... In
future, please isolate/send your questions one topic/subject at a time.
Thank you, Bob Fenner>
Grounding Probe Info 4/23/08
Dear Crew,
I was doing a
little research on grounding probes and came across this article
written by a Georgia Tech professor, and thought I'd share:
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
Basically, he educates the reader on the difference
between
voltage in the tank (not a problem) and current in the tank (a
problem) and concludes that the addition of a grounding probe more
often than not causes a current problem where none previously
existed (the website also contains a good discussion about GFI
outlets). Although I don't know the author and can't vouch for his
wisdom, it seemed to make sense to me. This article was a real eye
opener for me--not because I was moments away from wasting $22 on a
grounding probe, but because every single catalog and every single
e-tailer I see sells and touts grounding probes.
<I do not... and
have not... all these decades...>
I assume that there are cases
in which they have some benefit, but I came away thinking, gee, this
is like "reef safe ich killer" and many of the other products I see
you guys poo-poo as worthless snake oil--it's amazing to me that
people can legally make tons of money off of hobbyist by selling
stuff that doesn't actually work or even causes harm.
Cheers,
Andy
<Agreed... and this is indeed a very fine piece... and the
link to this gentleman's tank project period:
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/MICHELSONAquarium.html
Thank
you for sending this along. Will post/share. Bob Fenner>
Re: Grounding Probe Info... and the meaning/liability for the
term/label "reef safe"
Bob,
<Andy>
That guy's site is
really interesting/insightful.
Because I've never used anything
that claims to be "reef safe", I've never had the opportunity to
read the label or warranty (if there is one) on "reef safe"
medications as to who bears responsibility when a hobbyist uses such
a product and his/her reef dies (or maybe nothing dies because it's
just colored water?).
Something tells the manufacturer disclaims
liability.
<I have said on occasion that I do wish I had the
time and/or money to hire someone in the legal biz to challenge
(i.e. sue) the many folks who make such disingenuous products... "If
only...". BobF> Re:
Grounding Probe Info
Was that a subtle nudge?? ;-)
<...
always>
Ah, we could spend many a keystroke discussing this
topic. In some ways I am surprised it has not happened. Lawyers tend
to have more money than the average Joe = bigger/more expensive
tanks = bigger/more expensive crashes from use of dubious products =
higher $ damages.
The problem with your dream is that you need
one of the following (i) a lawyer who's been personally screwed and
is willing to shoulder the legal battle, (ii) a rich hobbyist
willing to pay a lawyer by the hour (not likely) or (iii) a pot at
the end of the rainbow for a contingency fee lawyer (i.e., a big
enough class of plaintiffs who have been harmed that a lawyer's
35-40% fee is big enough to take the case).
My guess is that the
warning labels on these products make it clear that "we cannot
guarantee that nothing will die from this. Of course it is best to
treat in a separate hospital tank, and the hobbyist assumes the risk
of adverse effects if used in the display."
<Well put>
Every
consumer product comes with a warranty of merchantability (i.e., a
warranty that the product does what it says it will do). Generally,
a manufacturer cannot disclaim such a warranty in a consumer
transaction. To pursue such a claim takes a lot of time and, if you
hire a lawyer, money. The court system is so expensive and time
consuming these days that it makes pursuing these claims difficult.
There is always the state's attorney general/consumer protection
division, but my experience is that regulators are loathe to take on
such matters unless there has been a significant financial harm.
<Mmm, our system of jurisprudence/litigation is the element of being
a U.S. citizen that I "like" best/worse about America. Cheers, BobF> |
Grounding Probes - 4/22/07
Hi,
<Hello.>
I checked on WWM
under 'electricity' and did not see information on grounding probes.
<Using the Google search feature reveals many references to them,
although there are varying opinions of course. Bob doesn’t seem to be a
fan.> <<Thank you Alex... I am not in most "cases", arrangements...
Better money/attention paid to using GFCIs, polarization, better wiring
period. RMF>>
I am having a difficult time on deciding whether I
should use a grounding probe. Searching the web, I find many sources
saying grounding probes are a must for aquariums. On the other hand we
have the article on why not to use them:
http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html
which makes sense to me.
<This does make some good
points. The part that I don’t agree with is the amount of current they
seem to think will be flowing through the ground and the fish. While
the induced voltage can build up to a pretty high level in the tank,
this is over time, and once grounded the amount of current flowing to
keep it grounded constantly will be negligible, unless there is an
actual problem with electrical components not being properly
insulated. The argument for the probe is that the infinitesimal amount
of current that would flow to the ground is not harmful, while to
sensitive species, the high potential voltage that builds up in an
ungrounded tank can be. I think of it as background noise, which does
not bother some people, and drives others batty.>
For the record, I
do use GFI's on all equipment.
<Excellent. Without GFI’s, there
could be current associated with a probe, but with the GFI, if there
were an actual insulation breach, it would trip.>
I recently
installed a controller (Lighthouse -
http://www.mcuresearch.com
<http://www.mcuresearch.com/>
). The installation instructions start off by saying make sure to use a
grounding probe to insure accurate probe readings (pH and ORP).
<Well there is your answer. Although they may not be necessary for
every tank, it sounds like you will be needing one to get your
technology to behave. Personally, I use them, ever since I measured the
voltage (46 V!) and watched the reaction of the fish when installing the
probe the first time. They “appeared” much calmer after the probe.>
I would like a definitive answer on whether grounding probes should be
used or not.
<This may always be a controversial topic.>
Thank you very much,
Jill.
<Welcome. Alex> Grounding
Probes - 4/24/07
Alex,
Thank you very much for your
response. I hooked up the grounding probe. My probe readouts did not
change after the addition - that is fine.
<That's
good. The readings could probably be affected for those tanks that had
a significant voltage built up. <<Mmm, voltage does not "build up".
RMF>> After initially grounding mine, it took a long time for the
voltage to return after removing the grounding probe. It is very much
dependent on the equipment installed, probably. I suspect my old lights
were part of the problem.>
Hopefully our inhabitants are happier
now.
<Maybe. Shouldn't hurt anyway.>
Thanks,
Jill and Aaron.
<Welcome, Alex>
|
|
.JPG)
