Specific tank questions, 29 gal. SW, selling rock with desirable and not org.s    7/14/08
Thank you for the great resource you provide. I have been reading the FAQs daily for weeks and still have much to go. I was hoping I might get some
specific advice on my relatively new (to me) saltwater setup.
It is a 29g with 2x65w 50/50 power compacts. Contains about 20lbs of aragonite and 40-50lbs of LR. I also have a 20g sump . No fish yet only a
green hermit. I intend to keep LPS and about 3 fish. This is my first saltwater tank.
So here we go…
I bought this setup used. It had been neglected for many months. I re-set it up and reused half the original water(had good parameters) to try to avoid a cycle and so far this has been successful. Here are my problems after 6 weeks. The tank is about overrun with mushroom coral. It is on every rock nearly everywhere and only getting larger by the minute. Where there is not mushroom coral, brown hydroids(myrionema) are sprouting up and multiplying as I type.
<Mmmm>
I don’t want all the mushrooms(probably none of them) and I definitely don’t want the hydroids.. I am thinking about removing the rock and chiseling off the pests.(may have to remove 30% of the rock)
<... I would...>
Do you think there is any other way to salvage the rock? Should I just scrap it and start over? What would you do if it were yours?
<Oh, here we go. I'd look into selling, trading this rock (w/ Hydroids) to a dealer near you. The "other" pests can be eliminated with not too much effort, and the Corallimorphs sold for a profit to others who want them. With the proceeds you can likely buy new rock!>
Thanks for the help.
Matthew Harless
<Welcome Matthew! Bob Fenner>

Larger Scale Live Rock Alternative – 07/09/08
Crew,
<<Hey Ryan>>
Thank you for providing such an extensive resource to our community, your service is second to none.
<<Thank you much for the kind words…redeeming indeed>>
I have read and re-read most of what has already been published here regarding different types of live rock "substitutes", (i.e. cinder blocks, lava rock, homemade, etc.),
<<I see>>
and our problem/situation is on a bit of different scale than those discussed thus far.
<<Oh?>>
We are in need of a much larger volume of rock, and due to the obvious costs, etc., are in search of ANY reliable alternatives.
<<Mmm, I understand…but do realize there is no real “alternative” to live rock, only poor substitutes of varying degree>>
We currently operate a coral propagation facility with roughly 1,300 gallons and 1,000lbs of rock that has been in our tanks for years. Well-seeded, to say the least.
<<Maybe so…but also likely in need of a “boost”>>
January 1st, we are expanding to a new location, with roughly 5,000g planned, and would like to get "whatever it is we are going to use" for rock/bio, to start seeding in our current system right away.
<<Some of your existing rock will serve well as a start-up bacteria culture…but after “years” is low in soluble bio-mineral content and alkaline reserve…as well as diminished bio-diversity>>
We have the time and space now to start whatever "curing" process is going to be needed before introducing it into the current system, but we are concerned about the long term effects of items like cinder blocks, etc. leaching at the new shop.
<<The biggest immediate concern is elevated pH (as high as 12.0 and above with new “cement” products), but this is easily “cured” down to acceptable levels…though the process can be lengthy (8 weeks or more). Long term issues in my experience with cement-based rock are excessive/problematic nuisance alga growth…and the fact that it provides no real bio-mineral content or buffer capacity/alkaline reserve>>
So, my 2 questions are...
Is there any truth to the different "soaking" methods (vinegar) to prevent this effect?
<<The vinegar will not “prevent” anything…rather, the Acetic Acid can be useful in “speeding up” the curing process. I have no personal experience with this method as I have always just used a plain water-soak, and from what I have heard, the added cost/trouble is little worth it. But do feel free to give it a try and decide for yourself>>
In dealing with something on this scale, has any rock substitute been proven reliable on a long term basis?
<<Terrestrial limestone may well be your best choice here. It will be much more dense/heavy than good live rock, will not support as much bacteria load as live rock, and brings nothing to the table re bio-diversity…but can be bought cheaply in bulk, and is a more “natural” source than the cement-based products (e.g. – cinderblock)…and though you will need to test to be sure, it will not likely need “curing.” With the limestone, do consider utilizing as much “new live rock” as you can to provide those needed elements the limestone can’t provide…perhaps as much as a fifth of the total volume (but the more the better!)…doing so will also make the limestone “better”>>
Thank you for all that you folks do.
Ryan Haag
<<We are happy to assist. Eric Russell>>

Live Rock Selection…Commercial Grade Curing 3-22-08
I have searched your database on tons of Live Rock questions, and still have a few that didn't seem to get answered?
<<I’ll see what I can do to help you out.>>
There is a LFS here in Utah. (One of the largest with the best Live Rock selection). I asked if they had large show size pieces for my 210, and they took me in the back where they had some 50-100lb giant pieces?
<<Is that a question or a statement? Unfortunately I’m not there at the LFS to confirm that they have said pieces but I can give you a tip on live rock selection. When looking at liverock it’s important to look at the density of the rock and how porous it is. For example it’s possible to have a piece of liverock that is 6 square inches and one that is 12 square inches and have them weigh the exact thing because one piece of rock I much more dense than the other.>>
As I was rummaging through, I felt the water and it was Ice cold? The guy said they keep rock here to get rid of mantis shrimp and other pests? Now my question is wouldn't this kill all the good life forms and aerobic and internally anaerobic bacteria?? That seems silly to ship it all the way for the purpose of "Live" rock just to kill it with freezing saltwater.
<<Well I will start off by saying this; no matter how you care for newly acquired live rock there will always be some die off and sometimes there will be **a lot** of dies off. A “curing” process is often necessary to condition the rock for use in a closed system. There is of course multiple ways about doing this, some that I favor more over others. It sounds like your LFS is doing what I like to call “commercial grade curing.” Ideal curing as described here in this article; http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i3/Live_Rock/live_rock.htm would cost the LFS a lot more time, effort, resources and thus money. The LFS attendant was right the lower temperatures are going to kill or eliminate a lot of the unwanted pests along with a majority of the other tropical creatures in the live rock. As far as bacteria, you don’t have anything to worry about there; it can endure the temperatures and recover quite easily given the right condition. Unfortunately while this live rock may eventually be useful in a closed system it will lack a lot of life that desired by many reef aquarists, it’s a trade off. Depending on the price it still may be worth it for base rock or as your “infrastructure” if you find a large piece that you like. You could always supplement it with liverock from another source. The trade off here is that you will have to take a more active role in the curing which means a longer time lapse as well as more effort in removing the unwanted organisms.>>
Also, do you know anyone that ships directly from the source to your house?
<<Many online or e-tailers offer more “direct-routes.” To get some anecdotes you can ask around on our new forum;
http://bb.WetWebMedia.com/ .>>
As I am worried about this crappy practice a couple of the LFS are doing?
<<It's not uncommon, though as I said not desired by most reef aquarists...think of it as the difference between a home cooked meal and fast food, both have their pros and cons.>>
Thank you so much, I love all the great advice you all give.
<<Good luck on your quest, - Adam J.>>

Buying quality live rock... sel. LR   03/15/2008
Hey gang,
<John>
Thanks for the great site. I have really enjoyed the many articles I have read over the last couple of months since I found you. I have had aquariums for going on 30 years (including a 55 gallon fish only tank a few years ago). After a few year break I have decided to set up a 75 gallon tank which in the short term I want to set up as a FOWLR system but if all goes well I hope to develop into a reef tank.
<Okay>
I am just getting started but so far have the 75 gallon All-Glass drilled tank ( only one drain and one return unfortunately); oceanic 30 gallon sump; Mag Drive 700 return pump; Sea Clone 100 protein skimmer ( a gift I received from my brother so I want to try and get it to work despite all I have read :-( ); a basic single bulb light strip with a 50/50 bulb; and a 300 watt heater. I realize I will have to completely redo the lighting but am hoping to get by with this light strip for now as the money outlay to get to this point has been a challenge.
<Mmm, won't support much photosynthetic life here>
So finally my question. I have never used live rock but am sold by all the information I have read on your sight. I understand through the curing process there will be die back and that the Live Rock will take some time to become fully established, but how selective should I be in purchasing live rock?
<Very... expensive, important choices... some is outright junk, garbage... need to be able to discern... value>
What I mean is that as I check the Live Rock available at my LFS, it doesn't appear to have much of the purple coralline algae or other growths that I can see.
<98, 99 percent plus of the life is gone from most "live rock"... denuded intentionally and bumped off through transport, handling rigors>
It certainly has some, but mostly just slight pink or in many cases brownish color but no combinations of sponges or algaes. The owner says it loses the majority on shipping and curing 
<This is so>
but in time will come back strong.
<This is not so>
Should I worry or as long as there is something indicating it is not completely dead will it bloom as he promises? Should I expect there to be more obvious diversity and therefore should look for other sources of Live Rock?
<... IF it were me, mine, I'd look for "box" volume deals and bring in your own... a box or two... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/lrselfaqs.htm
and the linked files above...>
Thanks again for all your efforts and the wonderful site.
A reefer in the making (I hope). John
<Me too... Bob Fenner>

Snowflake eel; comp; now sand sifting star and cheap live rock – 03/03/08
Wow thanks for the quick response.
<No problem, Jiahua.>
Yeah, I thought as much (but I don't think I have seen an adult moray).
It was only a spur of the moment thing when I go to my LFS and see new things.
And for your concerns referring to my system and star, I got the sand and live rock first and let it sit there for about three months (long enough?), before getting the moray and I have around 2-3 inches of sand for my star.
<If it is well populated (worm burrows etc.), it should be okay. Personally I tend to wait almost a year before getting sand sifting sea stars. Also I personally prefer deeper sand beds (DSB) to help with denitrification. Compare: www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm .>
Oh yeah, one more thing: No matter where I look, live rock is always $6.99 a pound and I think it's a lot of money especially that I'm only a senior in high school and going to college. This was originally a huge project for school, but it grew into more of a hobby. Do you have any suggestions as to where I can find good deals for live rock? I want my snowflake to have more spaces to hide than just one rock and some PVC.
<I’ve had both, very good and pretty bad experiences with live rock from fellow hobbyists selling their stuff online. It is usually at least half the price, sometimes cheaper. However, it is without a doubt preferable to see the rock and select the best pieces. For high quality live rock the price you noted above is reasonable in trade. Don’t put too much live rock into a running system at once to avoid a mini cycle. Dead reef rock is much cheaper than live rock and provides the same cover, but it won’t provide as much biological filtration. I’d prefer live rock and add new pieces whenever money allows.>
-Thank you, Jiahua
<Have fun. Marco.>

Reef Aquascaping…Do I need All That Rock? – 02/20/08
Hi,
<<Hello>>
I have a 75g tank. It has about 75-80 pounds of rock. 30 pounds of it are 3 gorgeous 10 pound Marshall show pieces.
<<Nice…though maybe a bit large for this size tank (matter of opinion)>>
I am sure you know how costly that was, well at least to me.
<<Indeed>>
A friend keeps pushing that I need to buy a lot more rock, and it must be purchased at one time, before I can hire his service to redecorate.
<<…?! Hmm, I wouldn’t be too quick to do this…I think we hobbyists often add “too much” rock to our systems; only to discover effective water flow throughout the tank is difficult to achieve , corals have no room to grow, fish have no room to swim/exhibit normal behavior , etc. The rock you have now will likely handle your bio-filtration needs just fine…and if you have a substrate, this too will provide much benefit/support re. Much better to not overfill the system with rock, in my opinion>>
Why?
<<Perhaps misguided advice…perhaps trying to make a sale…don’t know really>>
I am disabled and the rock I bought previously, I bought a little at a time at another store. I need the reasoning behind this statement.
<<If the rock is not cured, buying and curing all at once (outside the system) reduces the repeated hassle…but there is no reason you can’t also do this piecemeal. Of course, buying fully-cured rock from a reputable source you trust takes away this argument as you can add as little or as much at time as you want>>
Am I just being pushed for sales?
<<Is “your” friend…what do “you” think?>>
Also, since Marshall is lighter weight, is the poundage weight equal to what is needed by another type of rock, or is less weight ok?
<<The lighter more porous rock should provide more benefit/bio-filtration per pound than a denser heavier rock, yes>>
I have had my tank up for a year. I have gone very slowly.
<<Ah, patience! A very rewarding virtue here>>
I have ONE percula clown, a brittle star, a few snails and hermits. I recently added my first corals, two tiny little frags.
<<”Slowly” indeed…>>
My other question. I have received so many conflicting information regarding tangs, from others.
<<Ah well, the hobby is rife with opinion…and you won’t find it any different here [grin] >>
Some say 75 is not large enough and recommend a 100g. In Fenner's book, page 304, he states at least a 50.
<<…and then dependent upon species>>
This book was revised in 2001. Has he changed his opinion on this since?
<<Let’s ask him…Bob?>><Is posted... RMF>
I hope he still agrees with that statement, since I would love a tang in my 75g.
<<If you stick to a small aquarium hardy species, and overstock the tank, then yes, I feel you would be fine adding a Tang to this tank. I think either Zebrasoma flavescens (Yellow Tang) or Ctenochaetus strigosus (Kole Tang) would make a suitable addition>>
One more question.
<<Okay>>
Since the tang will be in a 75g, will it be more prudent to have more open swimming area at top, or is it ok to keep stacking rock. (Remember I have 75-80 pounds)
<<”More open swimming area” gets my vote>>
On a final note, I was thrilled to find this site.
<<We too are happy you found us>>
I cannot read Mr. Fenner's book enough. It stays on my coffee table so I can pick it up whenever I want, and guests find it a lovely sofa table book.
Stacey
<<I’m sure Bob will be pleased to know. Regards, EricR>> >Better than Oprah? RMF<

Re: AndyB pc. on Dendro and no Aiptasia in the Atlantic claims  2/17/08
Bob,
<Andy>
I will be happy to help in any way I can, but I must caution that I have no biology background or experience with preparing/writing such works.
<Au contraire my friend. You obviously have a good grasp of written English communication... and enough "science" to relate your experiences here. I assure you of this>
If you can provide a little more specific guidance on what, exactly, you're interested in (what type of photos,
what type of specs, what type of narrative, etc.), I will gladly take this on.
<Images of your system, the foods used, the specimen itself from a few angles, perhaps under various lighting... The writing, in your own voice... simply detailing your interest, background... the history of your keeping this specimen... Speculations you have, may have re your success>
On another note, I have a question about Aiptasia. I have been debating this issue with a LFS owner, which sells Florida aqua-cultured LR exclusively. He claims that his LR is guaranteed Aiptasia-free, because they do not exist in the Atlantic/Caribbean.
<Uhh, not so>
His claim is as follows:
"OUR FLORIDA AQUA CULTURED "LIVE ROCK" IS HAND PICKED.
IT IS LEGALLY HARVESTED AFTER 6 - 16 YEARS. SHIPPED WITH HEAT PACKS OR ICE PACKS AND (WHICH EVER IS
NEEDED) WITH ANEMONES, SEA SQUIRTS, MUSSELS, GORG.S., SPONGES, STARFISH, TOOTH CORALS AND BRAIN CORALS ALL OF WHICH LIVES. NO NEED TO CURE BECAUSE NOTHING IS "DYING". APPROX. 6 HOURS FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN TO THE BOTTOM OF OUR TANKS. NO APTASIA IN THE ATLANTIC!"
My research suggests that Aiptasia do, indeed, come from the Atlantic.
<This is also assuredly so... Have seen them there, many times...>
Interestingly, I believe the Aiptasia that I did have in my tank (before the Butterfly) were acquired from a few pieces of LR that
I bought from him.
Andy
<Do send this note to the company, rep... Perhaps their mis-spelling of the genus is some ploy at avoiding suit. BobF>

Questions on setup ideas... LR tank, interesting speculations re.    2/11/08
Dear WWM Folks,
<Jacob>
First, you have a great site here. There is an enormous wealth of information just waiting to be pored over. I have been looking over the FAQs and using the google tool, but there is such a wealth of information that I am sure I missed the answer to my questions somewhere.
I am new to the hobby and have a 24g NanoCube that has been going for about a year now. I am planning out my next tank and realizing that the life that came on my live rock (aquacultured in Florida and uncured) is much more interesting to me than any of the corals or fish I have subsequently added. I am planning a tank based largely on uncured liverock with a minimum of fish and mobile invertebrates added, all consistent with where the specific rock was obtained. My goal, quite simply, is maximum biodiversity. I would like my set up to be as close to a working eco-web as possible, preferably only feeding the bottom of the food chain.
<With... light, mineral replacement/supplementation?>
I don't have a size or shape in mind yet; I want to go with whatever setup will best achieve my goals.
<Can/could veritably be a drop...>
My first question concerns how to circulate the water without killing all the wee buggers floating in the water column. My first thought is to use a very low head airlift system.
<Ahh! Yes, possible>
The plan would be to use an airlift system to move water into a sump on the same level, through drilled bulkheads then use gravity to return the water through a closed loop manifold. I know you can move an enormous amount of water via an airlift but I am concerned that there won't be enough pressure to power the closed loop manifold.
<Could be>
I have not been able to find any information on this manner of moving water in saltwater aquaria. Do you have any advice on where I might be able to find this information?
<In "old books", by Stephen Spotte, Martin Moe...>
Do you have any other ideas on how to provide adequate circulation without damaging the micro flora and fauna in the water column?
<Yes... see some works on aquaculture... there is a good intro. for pet-fish folks... by Frank Hoff... see the etailers of books re...>
Another question I have is: in order to ensure maximum survival of the life coming in on the live rock ,what depth is good to collect from?
<Most any/all reasonable depths... inter-tidal to snorkel...>
There are a number of companies aquaculturing live rock at various depths and I don't know which environments would be easiest to replicate.
<The organisms will "sort themselves out" per the conditions you present...>
I intuit that shallower water needs more intense lighting and more current, but deeper water animals would need less light and less water movement which might be better suited to the airlift system but then the problem would be solids settling out in the quiescent zones. Which has the fewer downsides?
<Again... you have good ideas... I assure you the life is flexible... some will be favored... persist... What will happen over time re this biota... diversity, abundance-wise?>
I guess the main question is, is there any literature on keeping saltwater aquariums where the contents are not stocked, but grow off the liverock; aquariums where the liverock and it's associated flora and fauna is the focus, not the backdrop, of the aquarium?
<Not as far as I'm aware... but there might well be... at least tangentially... Hard to search the pet-fish literature as most of it is not picked up by citation services (my usual on-going warning to editors to retain and publish bibliographies... a yes/no benchmark for inclusion here)... You might be the instigator, producer of the first written work/s of this topic>
To all the WWM crew, thank you. You have a wonderful resource here and I very much appreciate that you are willing to take the time to answer what must be a large number of often redundant questions. Thank you, again.
Sincerely
Jacob L'Etoile
<I do encourage your looking into an inexpensive low res. microscope... the QX series are to be pursued here. Bob Fenner>

Life on live rock 01/15/2008
Hi!
<<Hello Danielle, Andrew here>>
I have been curing live rock in my tank since October. My ammonia just arrived at 0. The bad thing is that I have not noticed any life on the
live rock. I had to transfer the rock to move my tank. Could that have killed the remaining life on my rocks? If so, what beneficial
invertebrate should I use to repopulate the tank?
<<Certainly nothing to worry about, live will soon start to re-form by itself on the live rock, just takes some time>>
Thanks in advance for your assistance,
Danielle A. Smith
<<Thanks for the question, A Nixon>>

Tank volumes/Live Rock 01/10/2008
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
Hello crew and thank you for any help that you may be able to provide me. I was wondering if you are aware of any formula or rule of thumb for determining just how much volume Live rock takes away from our total tank volume. Thank you for any help that you may be able to provide. Mark
<<The best way to measure water displacement, is to have a tub with a set volume of water, add an amount of rock, and measure the water displaced. All water displacement will be different as different rocks have different density>>
<<Thanks for the question, A Nixon>>

Live Rock? (nontechnical)... Supplier  11/15/07
Hello Bo
<Hi John, Mich with you tonight.>
Curious to know if there are any reputable sources to buy online Premium Fiji Cured?
<Have you tried Walt Smith? More here:
http://www.waltsmith.com/ >
Thanks,
<Welcome!>
your site is very appreciated.
<Nice to hear!>
Regards,
John
<Cheers, Mich>

Buffers and Caribbean/Florida Live Rock 10/3/07
Hi Crew,
Thanks for taking my e-mail today!
<Been a few days now I think. Sorry about that...>
I have a question about using buffers in my reef system. I am currently using Seachem Reef Buffer (pH Buffer) to supplement my top off water. I also have their reef Builder (non-pH buffer) but I haven't really been using it. I add enough Reef Buffer routinely to keep my alkalinity above 3meq/L. I have heard that people dislike using pH buffers. I assume this is because the addition of too much at once could drive up the pH resulting in calcium carbonate precipitation. My pH is usually around 8.2 during the day. The reason I use pH buffer in my top-off water in the first place is because I do not like adding low-pH top-off water to my system.
<Have you thought about using Kalkwasser? Calcium hydroxide is great because it can raise your pH, your alkalinity and your calcium all at once. It might also help with phosphates as well as some other possible such fringe benefits.>
I notice less of an impact on my SPS corals (polyps closing) when using pH buffer. Since my pH is 8.2 would the best course of action be this? : add enough pH buffer to top-off water to reach a pH of 8.2 (same as system) and then use non-pH buffer for the rest of my alkalinity
supplementation via top-off water. If I continue to use pH buffer exclusively, then would it be best to limit the amount of pH buffered top-off water I add to my system so that the pH climbs no more than .2 points (ie 8.2 to 8.4, similar to how Anthony Calfo doses Kalkwasser)? Also, if I see no rise in my pH over time with use of pH buffer, then is there any problem/disadvantage using pH buffer that I am not seeing?
<I think you're thinking a little too hard about this. pH naturally rises and falls throughout the course of a day (up to even .4 variation is pretty normal). Anthony Calfo probably likes Kalkwasser for the same reasons I do (see above). If ever the Kalk should fail you in calcium or alkalinity, you can simply use baking soda and/or calcium chloride to adjust accordingly. For details on that, please see here: www.asira.org/practicalchemistrybasics>
My other question is in regard to Atlantic Live Rock. I want to create a Ricordea biotope in the near future. Even if they don't come from the same depths/environments I want to at least keep Western Atlantic Fish/Inverts. I was thinking about putting Live Rock from Western Atlantic in there as well but I have heard quite a few drawbacks with that rock. I have heard that it often has bristleworms and Aiptasia.
<Bristleworms are good things. Aiptasia not so much, but they can be managed with quarantine.>
I have also heard that the rock is very dense. Would it be best to just skip this part of the biotope and use Pacific Rock?
<Well, technically, if you use Pacific rock, you don't really have a "biotope" anymore. But otherwise, I don't think it makes too much a difference. The Ricordea should do fine with either.>
I have liked it in all my other systems.
Sorry for the long e-mail and thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions!
Thank You,
Tim
<De nada,
Sara M.>

Stocking, LR Diversity 9/5/07
Good evening dear Crew Member! Who draws the late shift this night?
<Evidently no one, but Chris here this morning.>
I have a couple of questions and thanks for your patience in working through these:
The first - actually concerning my favorite part of saltwater keeping - has to do with stocking, and I would like your advice. Soon, I will be moving my Rabbitfish, a Siganus unimaculatus, to larger quarters and I will replace him with 1 or 2 smaller fishes, if possible. His current environment is a 46 gallon bowfront with LR/LS. His current mates are (1) Tomato Clown, (1) 6-Line Wrasse, (1) Azure Damsel, (1) Royal Gramma, and (1) Falco's Hawkfish. This semi-aggressive group gets along amazingly well together in a very healthy system. Since I would then like to also slowly begin adding Zooanthids, mushrooms, and a few LPS corals, I would like to replace the Rabbit with 1 other "reef safe" fish, 2 at the very most. My thoughts lean towards one of my favorites, a Twinspot Hog; or perhaps one of the small Centropyge spp. that is less reef destructive, i.e. a Fisher's, Flameback, Cherub, or Resplendent Angel; or a substrate bound fish (one that can fend for himself among these residents); perhaps another moderate sized Wrasse of some sort, maybe the somewhat smaller Cortez Rainbow Wrasse (Thalassoma lucasanum); and I also thought about the possibility of adding a Saddled Valentini Puffer (Canthigaster valentini) or its mimic, the Saddled Filefish (Paraluteres prionurus). There are many fishes that could have gone in first with these current inhabitants but the selection(s) is/are limited since this would be the last introduction and it must be reasonably tough. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions...perhaps something new and different that I have not thought of? Feel free to shoot holes in my proposals.
<Honestly I think you are pretty well stocked, I would stay away from the angels, while small they like fairly large territories for their size, and if you are determined to add another fish I would stick with a bottom dweller, some sort of blenny or goby perhaps.>
On a second note, this same system houses about 50 - 60 lbs. of live rock which is about 6 years old now (well...actually eons, but who's counting?). Once the 6-Line was introduced it especially drew my attention as he doesn't seem to find as much forage on the rock as I think he should; same for the Hawk, etc. I am concerned now that the LR which used to accommodate a plethora of organisms is becoming void of life. I certainly don't see the "pods" that once thrived. My nitrate level (~30 - 40 ppm) also seems to support the theory that there are not enough micro-organisms to mitigate these deleterious levels. I plan to switch out a few pieces of the older rock for some newly cured pieces to hopefully boost the biodiversity. Other steps that I am taking are to add a refugium which should be in place/running within a couple of months as well as increasing the sand bed depth from 3". I have also had some discussions with some "reefers" who suggested dosing with a liquid phytoplankton product to increase the reproduction of nitrate consuming organisms. Does this sound like a feasible solution to help restore/regenerate some life?
<Replacing some of the rock is definitely a good idea, the diversity of the rock does diminish over time for sure. A refugium will help too. As far as the adding products to help build bacterial levels, it won't help, and only make it worse. De-nitrating bacteria lives deep in rocks and sandbeds, where there is little O2, and a limited amount of suitable areas in most tanks are what limit this, not a lack of nutrients.>
As always, Thanks for your help and hard work!
David A. Bell
<Chris>

Re-use of Live Rock 8/15/07
Hi Gang,
<Hello>
I'm restarting my marine keeping hobby after an absence of 3 years. When the last tank broke spilling 100s of litres of salt water over the living room I wisely cleaned and put aside all my gear and live rock pending this day. The wife and I are now talking again. :-)
<A forgiving wife.>
No doubt the rock (approx 150kg) is fairly dead by now but will presumably liven up in good time. The rocks were put away in sealed boxes void of sunlight in the garage.
<Wet or dry?>
My query is this. Are there any special precautions I should take before re-introducing the rock to cycle my new tank? Or do I treat it just as if I were buying it new from
my LFS?
Many thanks in advance.
Dave
<If it was stored dry it is most likely completely dead, and should be thoroughly cleaned before using it, otherwise you will be adding too much dead material to the tank. If it was stored wet there may be some life left, but I would still give it a good cleaning in salt water with a tooth brush to try to remove as much dead material as possible. Either way I would get a little new rock to reseed what you already have.>
<Chris>

Re: Re-use of Live Rock 8/15/07
Hi Chris,
<Hello>
Much appreciative of the quick response.
<Welcome>
The rock was stored dry - so yes it will be completely dead. My plan for cleaning was to first water blast each rock thoroughly to remove as much dead material as possible from the outside. Then I would thoroughly rinse and soak each rock in RO water before placing back into the dry storage boxes prior to putting in the tank.
<Sounds good>
A couple more queries if I may.
<Sure>
I hadn't planned on using a toothbrush (smacks of painting the Eiffel Tower with a hobby brush :-))
<Heehee>
- the water blasting will achieve the same won't it?
<You will be surprised how stubborn some stuff will be to remove, could use a larger wire brush to help speed up the process. You will never get it all off, but you want to get as much as possible.>
I could easily salt my RO water - but is there any benefit to doing this?
<Nope, not if it was stored dry, plain old tap water will be fine.>
Cheers
Dave
<Chris>

Adding live rock with some growth on it to a non-reef tank. Live Rock Addition 7/19/07
Good morning,
<Hello whomever you are.>
Stupid question of the day!
<Only stupid answers.>
I am cycling my fish only tank (no fancy lighting etc). I want to buy some live rock from another person, where the rock has some bulbs etc growing on it. Is this a bad idea as the growth will die in my tank without proper lighting etc?
<It may or may not die depending on what the growth is. I don't like the sound of "bulbs". Sure sounds like the growth may be the dreaded Valonia (Bubble Algae). If so, you certainly do not want this to take a foothold in your tank. Send a pic if possible and we can identify.>
Thanks
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

Old Rocks...New System  – 07/03/07
Hi,
<Hello Philip, Mich here.>
I intend to start up a FOWLR tank.
<How nice!>
On the contrary, a friend of mine has decided to drop out, and he has 100 lbs or so live rocks for my disposal.
<This is convenient!>
These rocks are however not in very good condition as I can see the corallines are bleaching.
<That's ok, with improved tank conditions the coralline should bounce back.>
Are these rocks re-usable in my new tank?
<Certainly. Though adding a piece or two of new live rock would likely benefit your system as well.>
What sort of treatment I need to take to cure them.
<The rock should be cured if your friend's tank is still up and running. So there is likely nothing you will need to do. The coralline will likely improve with frequent water changes.>
Regards
<Cheers! Mich>
Philip Chow

Live Rock and Ich Parasite 6/14/07
Hello crew,
<Hello>
I have Live rock that I pulled out of a marine tank that was infected with Ich. The rock has been in a black plastic garbage bag in a Styrofoam cooler for about 2 months. The rock is still damp. <Must have smelled lovely.> I would like to use this rock in a refugium. <Will need to be recured I think.> Now to my question. What are the chances that the Ich parasite is still alive but dormant on the still damp rock. <Very close to 0.> I do not want to reinfect anything with this rock. <Exceedingly unlikely.> Any ideas or suggestions on how to proceed would be fantastic.
Thanks
Harry
<Your real concern here is the die-off on the rock, it will need to be recured outside of your aquarium, otherwise it will trash you water quality and drop a ton on nutrients into the system fueling algae and other undesirables. Ich should not be an issue here.>
<Chris>

Live rock question, reseeding  5/17/07
Hi,
<Hello Danielle, Mich with you today.>
I need instructions on how to start up my saltwater tank again.  I broke the tank down this past February so that we could change the flooring. The tank will be down for another few weeks, until the installations are finished.  The live rock is in large tubs, along with power heads. There were no fish to worry about; my butterfly died a month before.  
<I'm sorry.>
I checked the salinity and it is high (approximately 30 ppm). I don't know how long the salinity has been that high, and I doubt that there is any life left on the rock.
<You would be surprised now many organisms can adjust when the change is gradual.  If you look closely, you might even see some Scuds/Gammarus shrimp scurrying about.  I think there is likely still some life remaining on the rock.  Examine it closely and see what if, anything you see.>
In your honest opinion is the live rock salvageable?  If so, how do I repopulate the tank with beneficial organisms?
<Yes it is salvageable.  More info here and related links in blue:  
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lrfaqs.htm
There are two possible two courses of action here as I see it.  You could very slowly bring down the salinity over a course of weeks, once you it is back into a more desirable range, you may want to pick up a couple of new pieces of live rock or trade some rock with a friend to better reseed and diversify the life remaining on the live rock, or you could immediately bring down the salinity which will likely kill any remaining life seed your old rock with some new (or new to you) and allow the life to grow and develop over the next several weeks.  Hope this helps.  Mich>
Danielle A. Smith

Quarantine Tank Live Rock?    – 03/09/07
Hi,
<Hi Brian, Mich here.>
I have a question about live rock I used in a quarantine tank: What can I do with it now?  I received a regal angel a few days ago from liveaquaria.com.  It was stressed out, so I bought a 10g tank and set it up as a quarantine (just the tank, two pieces of cured live rock bought from my LFS for cover, a heater, and a small BioWheel wet/dry filter).  The fish didn't make it.  It seemed fine at first - swimming, etc, after 8 hours, but after about 24 hours it started to head south.  It wouldn't eat any of the Mysis I put in the tank, and it was dead this morning (about 36 hours after arrival).
<Sorry for your loss.>
So, I now have two pieces of live rock in the tank, which I would like to put in my main tank.  Can I?  I don't know what killed the angel, so I don't want to infect the main tank.  What should I do?  
<I would not put it into the display tank.  I would keep the rock in the QT or move it to another container with power head and a heater and allow it to go fallow (without fish) for at least 4 weeks or even better 6-8 weeks before putting in into your display.>
Also, is there anything I could have done better for the angel?
<In the future, it would be better to have the QT tank set up and running for at least a week or more before any fish are placed.>   
Thanks!
Brian
<Welcome! -Mich>

Refugiums, Lighting, & Frags, Oh My! – 03/06/07
I have read many pages on WWM and have found a great deal of info.
<<Excellent to know>>
Thank you.
<<And thanks to you for “using” the site>>
The information shared has enabled me to have propagated my first mushrooms and xenia in a ten-gallon tank for trading with the LFS.
<<Cool>>
I am also starting propagating to place specimens into our larger tank coming soon- a 40-gallon with a 30-gallon refugium, 7-gallon sump.
<<Neat...and interesting you have opted for a larger refugium versus the sump.  Most hobbyists go the other (and maybe misguided?) route>>
I plan on using all man-made live rock, and have some pieces curing.
<<Mmm, speaking from experience here...I recommend you “don’t” do this.  Use a couple “specialty” pieces for caves/ledges if you wish, but do keep the bulk of the rock as “natural” live rock.  Regardless how “real” the man-made rock appears, it falls well short of the real thing in all other aspects.  Even when composed of some aragonite material, the man-made rock will not have the buffering capacity nor contribute bio-mineral/earth elements to the tank like natural live rock.  Obviously the man-made rock will contribute NO BIOTA at all to the system...yes; it will populate to some extent...but will never come close to the real thing.  And maybe the biggest consideration here for me...it has been my experience that the first thing to colonize the man-made rock are species of nuisance alga.  It is anecdotal proof for sure, but it seems to me the cementous surface is prime habitat for nuisance alga.  Sooo, don’t be swayed by the seeming value in man-made rock...tis false economy in my opinion>>
The 40 is in-wall, and the 30 will be less noticeable for frags/refugium in another room.
<<Ah, I see>>
I have a couple questions if you can respond or direct me to the answers I would be much obliged.
<<Fire away>>
I have read about refugiums with 24-hour lighting housing Caulerpa utilizing lighting reverse to the show tank (on when the main tank is off).
<<Mmm, a contradiction here.  24-hour refugium lighting would indicate the lighting is on all the time...regardless of when the tank lighting is on (and is best when housing Caulerpa species of macro-algae to preclude a sexual event...in my opinion).  I think what you mean is “RDP” or “Reverse Daylight Photoperiod”>>
The intent of reverse lighting is to eliminate ups and downs in oxygen, thus causing other water quality issues that I don't claim to be able to explain, but seem to understand with fair accuracy.
<<Several things going on actually as a result of the photosynthesis...with the primary benefit being pH support/stabilization>>
My wife is into the idea of a reef tank, fascinated by the little creatures in our
10-gallon, but doesn't support the 'glowing closet' of reverse lighting or 24hr lighting.  
<<Mmm...a dilemma then...>>
So...
Q: If oxygen is the main issue, can we as aquarists violate the "keep it simple" rule and simply put an air pump on a timer in the refugium when lights are off to maintain stable water conditions?
<<Oxygen is not the “main” issue re a refugium.  Use of a protein skimmer will keep the water saturated with oxygen...and even vigorous water movement at the surface of the tank greatly facilitates gas exchange.  Though not the “best” method maybe...but if the lighting at night is an issue, simply run the refugium lighting in synch with the display tank lighting>>
Q: If I fill the 40g and 30g with salt water, placing all the goodies
<<...?>>
from the 10g into the system, can I place my soft corals into the tank once the water clarity is fair?
<<Though moving some rock/water from the old system to the new will likely speed cycling, I would still wait a few days and move your livestock once the water tests show it is safe to do so>>
The 10g has some coralline growth, bunches of copepods dancing/sticking around, some Caulerpa and the sand is crawling with critters.  How long should I wait to place cuttings/frags into the show tank?
<<Ideally?  If you have the capacity to run both systems I would let the new system sit empty/run for a month at least (the more time the better in the long run) if only to “mature” the system a bit before moving in the livestock>>
The 40g will have much more appropriate lighting and I can't wait the get the extra space to frag/propagate.
<<I understand your excitement...but try to not let it overshadow your reasoning>>
Q:  I don't see any reason I shouldn't divide the refugium into two parts, one for a deep sand bed, the other for frags/propagation?
<<Is up to you...>>
Any suggestions on proportions?
<<Always difficult to mix usage in a small tank...but the bigger the better for the DSB.  Perhaps adding a separate inline frag tank is in your future>>
Q: Can one safely use latex paints in the same room as a running reef system?
<<Has been fine in my experience, yes>>
Thanks for fielding these questions if you are able.
<<Quite welcome>>
Coach Tom Stephan
<<Regards, Eric Russell>>

Live Rock Question, Raising the Dead  3/5/07
Hello,
<Hi Rusty!  Mich here.>
I recently purchased a used 50-gallon aquarium (including stand, canopy, wet/dry filter, skimmer, etc, all for $100).  
<What a deal!>
The fish tank has been with out water for over a year.  Inside the tank is a giant mountain of live rock.  I heard rumors of live rock being brought back although I am unsure if this rock can be brought back, can it be brought back?  
<Yes.  The rock will need to be cleaned and cycled more here:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i3/Live_Rock/live_rock.htm and related links in blue.>
If I introduce some new live rock with the old would it bring it back or should I just start with all new?  
<Introduce some new pieces into the container you use to cure the old.  This will help seed the old with new life.>
As far as I know, this person lost interest in the tank, drained it, and left the live rock to sit in the tank for over a year.
<With time and patience it can be revived.>
Thanks,
Rusty
<Welcome!  -Mich>

If I throw a rock into the ocean, can I use it in my reef? 2/14/07
Hi, my name is Lisa.
<Hello Lisa. >
I have a 40 gal. FOWLR and am upgrading to a 90 gal w/30 gal sump/refugium. I currently have 42 lbs of live rock, 3 ocellaris, mated pair of mandarins, a coral beauty and a niger trigger (baby). The triggers name is Bubba and he is the main reason I'm upgrading, due to his growth potential from his current 2" size, I just love that dumb fish. I am a college student currently enrolled in a Geology course which ironically enough has been teaching a lot of the same stuff I've already learned from having saltwater aquariums.
<Irony? There's geology underwater, too!>
I now have more questions than before about live rock and base rock and what chemical compositions are acceptable in a reef aquarium, which is what I'd like to do with the new tank. I understand that there is an entire industry built around the sales of live rock and base rock, however, as you've no doubt noticed from your forum of questions on the subject, some of us need an alternative to spending $500 on such rock.
<There are some options...>
I went to a local stone seller just to do research, but didn't buy anything. I discovered that many of the things that are recommended for reef aquariums such as dolomite and aragonite and limestone and slate rock are available.
<Would stay away from slate... is lacking sufficient surface-area to be of much use here, except as anchor or support. There are better alternatives...>
I realize these are not live rock in any sense of the word, however, combined with my current live rock, are they acceptable?
<Quite.>
If so, how can I judge the purity and cleanliness of such rock, and is there an industry name of types of rock that can act as good substitutes.
<Tufa and lava rock are options, though usually require enough work to level the playing field in with regard to live rock. The key is in proper cleaning to ensure there are no "unknowns" in the mix. Lava rock may have the added problem of silicates, which can be a problem in itself. Limestone is a good option, though. Even cement-type rocks can eventually host life. Coquina is another base for your use. >An example would be learning in my class that lots of quartz rock comes from the ocean, but it can also contain trace metals. What about rose quartz, what elements make it the rose color and will they harm the fish. In the vast ocean these elements don't have as much impact as they would in my little captive system. I'm sorry this is such a long winded email, but I wanted you to understand that I'm not going to go out and haphazardly buy any rock I see, I've done my research and know what I'm doing to a certain extent. <Suuuure you do. ;) > I just need some advice on judging a store bought rock, the elements it contains, and what is safe. I mean, let's face it, during the life cycle of a rock, just about all of them spend some time in the ocean due to subduction and convection right?
<I think the key you need to focus on here is this: *INERT* media for your sensitive organisms. Whether or not the rock could possibly be exposed to ocean water at some point in it's cycle from formation to eventual subduction is hardly a determining factor in choosing proper rock for your captive system, right? There are those that start whole systems with less rock than you have, mixed with totally dead (but inert) rockwork. The key is the lack of influence the rock has on water-quality. OR more to the point, negative effect on water conditions. Limestone and marble are two examples of stone that can actually buffer Ph.>
There HAS to be a safe alternative to the jacked up prices of "live rock" yanked out of ocean reefs that can't handle the strain anymore...Thanks in advance, and I hope I didn't offend anybody...Lisa Hines
<No offence taken here, Lisa. (I hope I have done nothing to offend you, either. Anything that needles you is probably said in jest.) Let me suggest some tips for your edification: Use google and search WWM and the WWW with GOOGLE using "Coquina" "Tufa" "Lava Rock" each used alternately with "reef" or "liverock". Also, consider that the *authentic* liverock takes all the guesswork out of the equation, with the extra added benefit of increasing bioload capacity as soon as introduced into the system (cured, that is). Also, for some reading, check this out: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/rkwduseaq.htm and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/baserockfaqs.htm and maybe... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/rkwdscapfaqs.htm and as usual, check out all the related links that you see at the top of the page.
Good luck and I wish your wallet a fat and happy future! ;)
-GrahamT>

How much LR/gal?   1/29/07
<Hi Candice>
PS.  I was just thinking about this and this can be ignored cause' I know it's way off topic BUT if you have any idea that would be great.  
<I actually keep FW/BW/SW tanks.>
I'm going to start a 10 gal. marine nano tank with some shrimp and corals.  It's a normal 10 gal glass tank.  Could you guesstimate how many pounds of live rock one might need for a normally arranged marine tank (like an island with it's back to the back of the tank).  I honestly have no idea and was going to go price some stuff later and just wanted some info so I don't look dumb
going in and looking completely clueless :)  I was just wondering ballpark numbers like as in  20 lbs. vs. 75 lbs.
<General rule of thumb is min 1 1/2-2lbs/gal. Check Reef Central to see if you have a local reef club in your area.  Many folks have LR they're selling for cheap.
LOL, right now, I watching "Dog the Bounty Hunter" & they're looking for a Candice!  Quick--hide!  ~PP>

Getting Live Rock to Canada eh!  - 1/22/07
Good morning,
<Good morning to you Dave, Mich here.>
Just wondering if you would know of any place that will ship live rock to Canada, preferably Fiji.  I have been on line all weekend and I am stumped, I can't find anyone.  
<You might try contacting Dave Palmer at Pacific Aqua Farms.>
I would like 100 lbs preferably uncured (its for a new set up).  Thanks for your time love your site.
<Hope this helps and thank you for your kind words.  -Mich>
Dave

Gulf of Mexico Live Rock - 1/22/07
<Hey Devin, JustinN with you today.>
I have a question pertaining to non-commercially harvested live rock.  
<Ok>
There is a local fish store that has an arrangement with a small scale diving operation who is collecting LIVE-live rock from the Gulf of Mexico off of west Florida (they supply a few LFSs').  
<Then is still commercially harvested, my friend, simply smaller scale.>
They go out approximately 50 miles where the water is about 30-40 feet deep, and bring up all sorts of fantastic live rock with innumerable creatures and life attached to them.  I have one piece with a sea squirt and a dozen or so fan worms.  There are hat snails, macro algae, colony worms, sponge crabs, shrimp, small starfish etc. all over the rocks.  The rocks are kept underwater 100% of their trip from harvest to display.  They look in my tank as they did on the real ocean floor.  My wife and I spend hours looking at hundreds of creatures scurrying about.
<Mmm, there is always some inevitable die-off involved in live rock, even if shipped completely submersed from ocean to store. It may be detectable as ammonia, but not necessarily. This is due to the fact that there are several species that simply will not survive in our care.>
My question is are these rocks safe in general.  
<Certainly, IMO>
Do they / will they help with biological filtration as well as the semi-alive Fiji and Caribbean live rock?  
<Semi-alive? What qualifies this statement, may I ask? As stated before, all live rock will have some die-off, and there is plenty of just as active rock from other locations, regardless of shipping method. As far as biological filtration, I see no reason this wouldn't function as typical live rock from the more common zones.>
There are some undesirables like a few Aiptasia and bristle worms, but these can be found on any rock.  
<Mmm, most bristle worms are a largely misunderstood detritivore, largely beneficial if not desired.>
I guess I'd like your opinion on whether these "highly alive" live rocks are really great (hard to find) or tank suicide.  
<Keep an eye out for unwanted predators, but this likewise would be the same for any rock. All should be fine here, with time.>
I've noticed that the tank has not been cycling as fast as normal despite having 40lbs in a 29 gallon tank.  It's been 18 days and the ammonia levels are still high, and there are no fish in the tank.
<This is not uncommon, my friend. A cycle typically takes a minimum of 2 weeks, and typically more along the lines of 4 to 6 weeks before the nitrogen cycle is fully established. As stated before, this is due to the die-off in the live rock, of creatures that simply won't make it in our care. The freshness of your rock may in fact exacerbate this issue, due to the fact that its had little to no cure time, in any other displays or shipping.>
Thanks for all your hard work.
Devin
<Thanks for the kind words, Devin. Enjoy your highly uncommon live rock! -JustinN>

More live rock questions  - 12/18/06
<Hi Evan, Mich with you tonight.>
I've dug around on the site and could find nothing to answer my question. I am currently working on setting up my 45 gallon tank, I've purchased and placed in 40 pounds of Caribbean Live Rock. I would like to add a few more pounds perhaps 20 or so.
<OK>
The Caribbean Rock was "uncured" and the 20 pounds of rock I plan to buy is "pre-cured" Fiji premium. Will I have a problem mixing "uncured" and "pre-cured" rock?
<No problems.>
Or will this only speed the curing time of the uncured rock?
<May help.>
Thanks, Evan.
<You're welcome.  -Mich>

LR Wholesaler Sel.   11/26/07
Justin, would you send me Eric Rood's email with his addy, placed currently in the Trayless Query folder? Bob F.
<No problem, Bob. His email is XXXX@bellsouth.net, and the body of the letter is as follows... -JustinN>
<<Thanks much Justin... Hey Eric! Am in Kona presently... in Holualoa>
Bob,
Your old friend Eric Rood here. A friend of mine is looking for a quality live rock connection for his retail store. Any advice? I told him I'd check with you, I thought you & Peter were once working on something. Let me know. All things are good here, Tam says high and she misses you.
Eric J Rood
<I'd contact either Walt Smith or Dave Palmer at Pacific Aqua Farms and see what they say re becoming something of a regular customer... Otherwise, Eric Cohen at SDC has some spectacular quality, consistency in LR nowadays. Cheers, BobF>

I have the answer for those wanting a FOWLR system in Hawaii  - 10/25/06
To the crew and the intelligent people that support this site, some info people may be interested in.
I have seen many questions on the site concerning Hawaii State laws.  I have been laboring over the same predicament for months almost years.  I have the answer, it takes a long time but with patience you can LEGALLY have a FOWLR (live rock being the key) in the state of Hawaii.  The laws are very strict in Hawaii, the State has good intentions but unfortunately are a bit misguided in my opinion (I even wrote my thesis on the current laws concerning the harvesting of coral for profit).  Many "amateur" reef aquarists are better read and knowledgeable on the propagation of SPS and LPS than in my opinion than those working for the State.  Yes, that may sound a bit harsh, but true.  
Anyway, enough of that, It is easy to go out and collect rock and corals and throw them in your tank in Hawaii, that is true, but illegal, and if you are like me. I still obey the law.  There (without a scientific permit and appropriate facility) is NO legal way of obtaining corals of any kind (save some "black, pink, and gold corals" with the appropriate permit).  Obtaining permits in the State for other than profit is next to impossible, yes a little hypocritical, but that's the way it is.  Now, here is how you do it.
THIS WILL TAKE AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF WORK, TIME, and PATIENCE..
It is legal to collect rock above the high tide water line, without ANY (not even algae) form of life.  A rock with algae could be a $1000 fine for the first offense.  Now you can see why this will take a while.  So, Collect your rock near the shore, but above the sand (waterline) most abundant on the Northwest side of the island of Oahu (sorry only know about Oahu, other localities/counties may enforce even more strict regulations).  For water use the public access at Sand Island (at the end of Sand Island Access Rd.) has been tested with almost all Salifert kits, and is an incredible source for free! A little high on the salinity side (around 1.029, but that's better than low I guess).  We are allowed, yes legally, to collect one gallon per day of sand and coral rubble seaward of the coastline.  This is how you will get your live sand (go to Bellows AFB or Lanikai beach).
Normally sand collected on the beach isn't a good idea, but it's a little different here than Atlantic City.  Get out there a bit, and it hasn't been touched.  Collect sand first, then when your DSB is establish collect coral rubble, this is the only way to get the coralline to seed your rock. Be sure to collect the sand in the water, yes this is a lot of work, so the sand will seed the rock.  Six months later you WILL have beautiful live rock, and you did it completely legal, then discard the rubble is desired.  I have verified this exact plan through the DLNR and the Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, and I have done it!  In fact you may print my email if there are any questions concerning legal resources. Nodea717@yahoo.com
Now, if you really want to push your luck, if I remember correctly Zoanthids aren't actually Corals right? Anyway, I am sure you see where I am going with this, you can capture your own inverts as well as fish.  Now go net your fish (as long as the net and arm together do not exceed three feet) and have a gorgeous, completely local FOWLR tank.  P.S. have your local fish store import anything off of the Conditionally accepted list or Restricted B list and have them sell it to you, they already have the permits (stonies and leathers are on the list but they still wont do it!)
Cheers!
Don Williams
<Thanks much for this cogent detailed input Don. Will post/share. Bob Fenner>

Live Rock...What's Good?...What's Better? - 10/21/06
Hi Eric,
<<Hey Ken>>
You said that Fiji is bargain rock.
<<I did, yes...doesn't mean it is "not any good"...just that there is better rock to be had>>
I have been away from the hobby for many years and just getting back in.
<<Ah, I see...some "re-learning" ahead of you>>
It seemed to me that this was the "premium" rock that everyone was using now.
<<Hmm...is not my understanding/observation.  But again, I'm not saying this is bad rock, just that I feel there are better choices from my own personal experiences and those of other hobbyists/LFS owners with whom I am acquainted>>
When you say bargain, what do you mean?  Quality of what it is supposed to do, or appearance?
<<Is usually the least expensive/more readily available.  Strictly speaking, I don't think rock from "Fiji" is an less "good" than rock from anywhere else, I think it is a matter of "handling" by some vendors.  I suspect some vendors buy large quantities that then sit around (under less than optimum conditions) waiting to be bought/shipped.  If you can get Fiji rock "directly" from Walt Smith I think you will be happy, otherwise I have heard very high praise of the rock available from Reefer Madness of late>>
Since the stores near me in New Jersey carry Fiji, what rock do you suggest and do you know a store or online place for me to buy that has good quality and selection?
<<Ah yes, as just stated.  Though if you can find a local store that can get you fresh Tonga rock I think you'll like that too.  But do try a Google search re my previous suggestions>>
Would they have a "package" that would give me assorted shapes and sizes so I can make a nice aquascape?
<<Mmm...the online vendors sometimes have box-lots of different sizes...but not really a "package" as such.  But in my experience, a box of rock will contains both large and small pieces (often through incidental breakage)>>
Any advise you can give me would be greatly appreciated since I would be buying sight unseen if it is not local and/or it is over the internet etc.
<<Understood...you can check out the chat forums re to get a broader perspective on what is "in favor" at the moment with the masses>>
I also have no problem driving 100-mile distance maximum if needed.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Ken
<<Happy to assist.  EricR>>

Re: Live Rock...What's Good?...What's Better? - 10/22/06
Hi Eric,
<<Hey there Ken!>>
Thanks for your help.
<<Is my pleasure>>
I will research out and try to do this this week as everything is ready now.
<<Super!>>
By the way, what specific gravity should I use?
<<Natural saltwater concentration...1.025/1.026>>
The rock that I will be getting will be mostly cured.
Thanks,
Ken
<<Always welcome my friend.  Eric Russell>>

Live Rock/skimmer noise - 8/1/6
Hi There,
<<Hello.>>
I was just wondering if you could give a newbie some advice. I have recently set up a new tank; it’s a 160 litre tank with about 9 kilo of live rock in it so far (I have to buy it a bit at a time, as it’s very expensive!). I have a Fluval 205 external filter and a red sea prism protein skimmer, and it is lit by a pair of Arcadia T5 bulbs, the twin tube Marine Blue Actinic variety.
<<Ok.>>
As yet I haven't stocked it with any fish, as I have a few concerns with the water quality.
<<Best to go slowly and learn.>>
At the moment I am still cycling my tank, and performing a few water changes, and it currently stands at PO4 - 0.25 ppm, NH3 - 1.3 ppm, NO2 - 3.3 ppm and NO3  - 70ppm. Now, having successfully kept tropical fresh fish in the past, I know that these are high.
<<Yes.>>
Does the living rock have any effect on the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite levels?
<<Of course, that is one reason it is so coveted.  It contains a lot of nitrifying bacteria, <And denitrifying and habitat/space for same. RMF>and a wonderful place for more to grow.>>
My tank is in my room so I have a problem with he amount of noise the skimmer is making, is there any inherent problem with switching off the skimmer at night, or will I have to just put up with it, I was planning on keeping soft coral and anemones, as well as other inverts.
<<Earplugs are your best bet.>>
There is no way I can move the tank.
If you could help, and give your input, I would appreciate it,
Many thanks,
Chris
<<Glad to help. Lisa.>>

Curing Live Rock, avoiding Bubble Algae?   7/18/06
Hey WWM crew quick query about some LR from a LFS...
Its just a few pc.s about 7lbs worth but one pc had some bubble algae on it...
How do I completely rid the rock of the bubble Algae before I cure it in some fresh sea water?
I was thinking that a 5 gal bucket with double dose of Trace elements, a power head, and some stress-zyme to hopefully culture some good bacteria before I add it to my 55 FOWLR
Does this sound good or what should I change?
Thanks a lot Crew!!!
<<Jacob:  If it were me, I would not intentionally buy a rock that already has bubble algae on it if you could buy another rock without it.  When I have found bubble algae on a rock, I have popped and scraped them off in a bucket of salt water.  I then rinse in another bucket and put in a separate tank to see if they come back.  Usually some will, and you can repeat the above steps until its gone.  If you already bought a rock with bubble algae on it, I suggest you cure it separate from the other rocks until you know it's bubble algae free.  Best of luck,  Roy>>

Live Rock - 05/21/2006
Hi, can you send Vanuatu Live Rock to Qatar?  No problem the DHL or FedEx.
<Sorry, we don't sell anything here.  We're only in the business of exchanging information, learning, and educating.  You might try asking a wholesaler of live rock instead.  Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>

Salvaging "Old" Live Rock  - 04/16/06
Howdy,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
Got a question concerning live rock that's been stored for about 2 years in a Rubbermaid container. A buddy offloaded some live rock on me that he's had in his basement for 2 years in a closed container with no fish (but kept a 802 powerhead in the container for circulation). I'm concerned about putting this rock in my main FO tank.
<As well you should be with anything added to your system! Good attribute to have- paranoia!>
I've been trying to cycle it in a 29gal (some of it anyway, it'll fully load a 55gal to the rim) for the past 6 months, even tried a refugium on the tank with Chaetomorpha and a 50w daylight floodlight a friend recommended. Nitrates shoot thru the roof 80ppm + (with water changes it drops 20ppm. but within a few days it's back to before I did anything), also get Cyano growing like weeds. I even tried putting a clown in the tank (poor little guy) hoping that maybe with a small bioload the organisms would start to grow and take care of the nitrate (clean cycle of course).
<Not a bad thought, I guess.>
Can't be the water I'm using, only use R/O water (and change the filters on it as recommended). So I'm guessing it comes down to the rock itself. Should I kill off the rock (bleach and dry) and start from scratch with a small piece of good LR? Or go get a small piece of good rock and add it to the bad in hopes that it'll re-seed what this rock is missing?
<Well, there are a lot of theories about phosphate/nitrate accumulation occurring within live rock, and some of them probably have validity. This is the "theory" behind the concept of "rock cooking" that you'll hear a number of hobbyists discuss on various hobby message boards. The thought is that by leaving the rock in a closed dark container for extended periods of time, you'll kill of undesirable algae (duh) and give the rock time to "leach out" trapped detritus and organics. I suppose there is some validity to this practice, although I've never subscribed to it. The fact that your rock, which has been "cooking" for years, is a possible source of organics seems to contradict this theory, however. Hmm. I suppose that you could either place this rock into a much higher flow/light environment to see what happens, or you could "nuke" it with bleach and start over with truly "dead" rock that is devoid of all life, microbial or otherwise. If it were me, I'd try to work with it in a more conventional reef tank setting first before giving up on it.>
There's no odor from the rock I have, it's teaming with bristleworms and MiniStars, but I can save some of them from the sand and just dip the rock to get what Ii can out of 'em if I have to bleach.
<I'd really try to avoid the bleaching, if at all possible.>
Also,  the main tank has a 3 inch sand bed (sugar sized and the sump has a 5 in) could part of the problem be lack of sand turning?
<I doubt it. It could be an issue of the sandbed being excessively disturbed, for that matter, or even an exhausted RO/DI cartridge (do check your source water for nitrate and phosphate before use, just to make sure. Aggressive nutrient export (protein skimming, sue of water changes and chemical filtration media, such as activated carbon or PolyFilter) can also help you salvage this rock for future use without resorting to the "nuclear" option!>
If so, would trying a fresh cycle with a goby to shift the sand that's already there maybe help? that's the only other thing I could think of that might fix the problem (but afraid that if the bed is established it'll cause trouble in the layers)
John
<Agreed, John. Try the nutrient export approach first. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Online vendors part2 3/30/06
Thanks a bunch AdamC.  It does help.  One remaining question on this. You wrote that 'pre-cured' live rock can often times mean less life on the rock when you get it...if I cure 'uncured' or 'raw' rock myself, won't a lot/most of the life on it die off during the cure or sitting in the box?  If not, why would the life disappear when the vendors cure it? Thanks again, and for letting me know about yesterday's message.  You guys/gals are awesome!  Eric B.
<<Sorry for the confusion... there is much confusion about the terms "cured/curing" vs. "cycled/cycling" and also much inconsistency in how rock is handled.  Due to complaints about smell, appearance and the work involved in handling "raw" rock, most live rock collectors have taken to "curing" rock before shipping.  This process involves hand stripping all of the sponges, macro algae, etc. from the rock and then often literally scrubbing or power-washing it before packing.  It is true that if left on the rock, much of this material would die, but at least something would be left to have a chance!  Also, the process of "curing" or more accurately "cycling" new live rock when you receive it should include aggressive water changes, attention to water quality and frequent inspection to remove dead things before they decay.  These measures ensure maximal survival of all of that life that you pay so much money for.
Many vendors (online and local) will unpack live rock when the receive it and begin the cycling process for you.  While this saves you time and effort, it will come at the expense of life if your dealer is less than conscientious in how they handle the rock.  My personal preference is to receive directly transshipped "raw" rock and cure/cycle it myself.  However this is a lot of work and there is a risk of dealing with a bit of bad odor.   Hope this helps.  Best Regards. AdamC.>

Live Rock/Live Sand, Collecting Your Own - 03/14/2006
Hello,
<Hi Matt.>
I have been reading postings on the importance of curing live rock. Are there any methods (e.g. limiting exposure to air, container selection, collection protocols) to employ in order to avoid the need for curing the live rock; that is, if you are collecting your own?
<Well, all of the above really. Some die off to be expected regardless. For minimum, I suppose you could try duplicating the ocean during transit (flow, water conditions, etc.), not cleaving organisms in two. Perhaps best to just keep moist, preventing waste material build up in the shipping water. Aside from this, are you sure collection is legal in your area?>
I live close to the ocean and can make the transition from the sea to the display tank/refugium in minutes.
<Would be nice, though I would still plan some wait and see time.>
The water in the tank will also be natural, collected from the sea.
<Not advised, see WWM re.>
I would like to make the transition of Live Sand and Live Rock as seamless as possible.
<Not advised for the sand either...also posted on WWM.>
As I have only just finished plumbing the system, I am now ready to add water, LS, and LR to my display tank and refugium. Since it is an initial startup, do you recommend adding all of the LS and LR to the display tank and refugium all at once (125 gallon display/20 gallon refugium -- not sure how many pounds of LS/LR I will be adding yet)?
<For typical start up plans, yes, best to start all at once.>
Also can hermits/other sand sifters and macro algae be added immediately to the refugium at startup?
<Not until a cycle is established.>
My other question is this: What type of a maturation cycle should I
expect knowing that all the contents within the tank have been taken directly from the sea (nothing is synthetic)? About how long
(understanding approximately 1 month for most systems), if any at all, should the cycle take?
<Hard to say, may experience minor or major issues. I'd expect major if you use the water and sand.>
Anything I should watch out for?
<Just the usual suspects.>
I understand my situation is somewhat unique. One last question --Haven't seen a lot of info on critter stocking schedule/protocol.
<No? All posted on WWM.>
Once the tank has matured appropriately (this timeframe still questionable to me in my situation), how much can you stock for the first time (this being a local fish and invertebrate tank). I have read the rule is fish first, then invertebrates.
<Hmmm...covered also. Not always the case.>
The intertidal species I will be adding are pretty hardy to begin with. How long should you wait after the first stocking before adding more?
<Depends how much you add at once, generally a month or so.>
What should that amount be, the same as the first stock?
<One - two fish at a time (first and thereafter).>
I just would like to have the initial startup go as smoothly as possible.  
<In this case, ditch the water/sand idea. Make your water, purchase your sand. Start all up and let the cycle work out. Stock from there.>
Thanks,
Matt
<Hope that helps. Do check on the legality of your collections first. - Josh>

Collecting Live Rock  - 03/12/2006
I hate to bug you guys with something that I am certain you have probably answered before, but I could not find it on the google search bar.  If this question is there I apologize in advance, and I would not blame you for berating me for my poor searching skills.
I live in Northern California and have noticed absolutely beautiful Live rock in some of the areas of the rocky coast.  Aside from legal issues of collecting rock what could be the possible ramifications of introducing the rock to my reef system after letting it cure for awhile?
I hate to be such a cheap skate and not buy the rock from a LFS, but its something I have been debating for awhile...and well...yeah...I'm a cheap skate.  Thanks everyone.  Live rock collecting in U.S. waters was banned by the government in 1997.  The ball is in your court.  James (Salty Dog)> <<This rock is unsuitable for tropical aquarium use... But very desirable for a local/coldwater system. RMF>>
Regards,
Clay B.

Amount of Liverock 2/15/2006
Hey.
<<Good Morning Jon.>>
I was wondering if you could clarify something for me.  I have read online (your site as well as others) that the "appropriate/average" amount of live rock should be about 1-1.5 lbs per gallon of water.  I was also told at a LFS that the more the better.  I understand that more live rock=more filtration, but doesn't it decrease the amount of water in the tank and therefore the amount of water per fish, coral, etc?  This undoubtedly leads to a less stable system, or does the greater amount of live rock compensate for this? Is there a point where more would be too much?
<<It comes down to a matter of taste, really.  Some think 1lb or less per gallon is sufficient for proper filtration, and allows better swimming room, while others really like the 'rockscape' look, using much more rock. Remember that live rock does take up room.  I personally use ~120lbs in my 90 gallon reef tank.  Also remember that some rock is more porous than others, which means more surface area, but less weight.  Go with what looks/works best for you.  If you want my two cents, I would say 1-2 lbs per gallon is a nice compromise between rock/swimming room.>>
Thanks,
Jon
<<Glad to help. Lisa.>>

Fish-Only Marine System - 01/24/06
Hi guys,
<<Gals here too...>>
Firstly I would like to say you guys have a very good website!
<<Thank you>>
Now for my question, I am currently planning a 5x2x2 FO set-up & my fish of choice are 2x baby Volitans lions & a tusk fish.
<<Mmm...fish grow up.>>
(I might even drop the tusk as I think it will grow too big for the tank, especially when I am going to have the 2 lions in there.  
<<Might be fine in this size tank...will depend largely on your filtration/nutrient export mechanisms.>>
I know it is a FO set-up so I am assuming I wouldn’t need any LR even tho it would be beneficial.
<<Extremely beneficial...>>
Would this set-up with just a thin layer of coral chips or crushed coral is okay as a substrate?  Without using any LR?
<<From a technical aspect, yes, this is possible.  But this type of "bare" display is dreadful, in both appearance, and for the fish, in my opinion.  I'm sure you're trying to maximize swimming room (or maybe just saving a buck?), but look at it from the fishes viewpoint.  A little live rock will not only make for a more eye-pleasing display, but will make/keep the fish more comfortable/healthy (less stress/fewer psychological disorders) than if placed in a barren glass box.  The live rock will also provide supplemental biological filtration...and you'll need all the help you can get with this trio of large (eventually) messy feeders.>>
I will be running a Fluval 404 & 304 as well as a 1200lph internal filter
<<Internal?  As in undergravel?>>
as filtration.  Would this be okay?
<<I don't think so, I would look in to the addition of a large fluidized-bed filter as well...and be sure to service those canister filters religiously.>>
Cheers
SHAUN
<<Regards, EricR>>

Tonga live rock collection laws 1/9/06
Hello WWM Crew, This will probably strike you as a weird question, but I am trying to recall something that occurred several years (more like a decade and a half) ago and figured that your collective knowledge may be able to help.
<Hmmm... if you think this is a weird question, you obviously never look at the archives!  Yowza!>
    In the late 80's and early 90's, I used to order in Tonga Branch rock by the box directly from the collectors.  I seem to remember that in the early 90's, I was told that due to new laws, they would no longer be able to collect/ship the Tonga rock.  While I do not recall if the law was based in the US or international law, I do clearly remember that there was a run on Tonga rock with the price dramatically increasing in the face of the ban.
<I vaguely remember this as well, and such events (or rumors of them) crop up from time to time.>
Obviously, Tonga is once again widely available and I am trying to figure out what occurred.  Is it that the ban was lifted or did it relate only to specific collection/areas/types of rock?  The current Tonga is no where close to the quality of the rocks that we used to get.  Thanks. Art
<I don't know the details of what happened in Tonga, but civil unrest, changing international law (CITES), conflict between locals and collectors, and a host of other factors have caused temporary (or permanent) lapses in collection from different areas.  When collection does resume, not only might the rules be different (or differently enforced), but it may be new collectors and/or a new collection area.  All of these factors will affect the quality and variety of what is collected.  Hope this helps.  AdamC.>

Bringing a box of LR from the Philippines 01-03-05
Hello Bob!
<Hello Gus, Travis here with you today.>
I have a friend from the Philippines who is coming to visit San Francisco.
He is not a reefer but would like to bring me a box of LR from the Philippines as a gift.  Is this allowed?  I've checked with customs they said yes.  I've checked with Fish & Game twice, once they said no and the second time they said as long as it is not commercial quantity.  
<I would definitely go with whatever those agencies tell you. In my opinion, as long as it is a small amount and there is no visible "critters" on the rock you should be fine.>
Thanks!
<Glad to help. Travis>
Gus

Florida Live Rock  12/24/05
Greetings- great web site!!
<Hi John and thank you for the kind words.>
Very informative.
<Yes very helpful to me as well, yes this resource Bob has created is truly amazing. For the record I had that opinion before I was a crewmember, haha.>
I have a quick question.
<No problem.>
I live in Michigan but will be driving down to Florida over the holidays.
<Awesome a sunny Christmas, I will be enjoying the same here in SoCal.>
I will be in the Fort Meyers area and was hoping you could recommend some good places to pick up some great live rock.
<I have not personally used this rock but have seen it in friends tanks, it’s truly nice stuff, with tons of life, aquacultured as well: http://www.tbsaltwater.com/.>
The drive is less then a day so with proper packaging, die off should be minimal. Thank you very much for your time and help.
<No problem.>
-John Balcazar
<Adam J.>

Live Rock and Copper HELP!  11/12/2005
Crew,
<Tirion>
Help! :) : I know you are all busy but I have an opportunity to buy (quickly) a bin of absolutely gorgeous rock, has been cleaned and dry for 2 years. Since I am laid off and need rock, this is a great opportunity. Wondered why it was so cheap, turns out the person used copper in his reef 2 years ago and you know the drill. Is there ANY way to utilize this rock in a mixed reef system?
<Yes, likely so... the copper is probably so fully insolubilized by exposure to the elements, carbonaceous rock that it will not re-enter solution>
It is gorgeous and almost perfect amount I need. To my knowledge, a great deal has likely gone insoluble or could be removed by placing in a tub with carbon filtration and checking the copper levels?
<Yes, a good extra precautionary measure>
I would check the levels, filter heavily a few days with over a pound of media like carbon or matrix in a 40 gallon tub at 200+gph with a HOB, stop filtration for a day and check settled levels, etc. and so on. Are there any other chemicals or media I should consider?  
<Not that I would use, suggest>
I can pick this up (like 50 or so lbs) for less than $30 and it is prime Fiji and Tonga. Your thoughts?  Thanks in advance, the stuff won't be there long.
<I would go ahead with your plans. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Live Rock and Copper HELP!  11/12/2005
Thanks!
<Welcome>
I am going to try and get it! If you like, I can let you know along the way any detection/issues so this might be a baseline for how to recycle copper infected live rock (clean it, store it, filter, test.. etc..)
<I'd appreciate this>
I plan on soaking, filtering and have decided I will use Carbon (probably minimal effect but cheap) and Poly (can see absorption and better capture)- not sure about Cupramine yet.
<?>
I have a means to have a chromatograph and mass spec detect whatever is in solution (ion, chel., at any concentration,
better than Salifert) periodically until I am satisfied. I can be patient sometimes - NOT :).
<Heeee!>
Thanks so much and you all take care. BTW, the SeaClone is still producing a medium dry foam and a cup of superior near black skimmate every 3 to 4 days. :).
<Real good. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Live Rock and Copper HELP!  11/12/2005
I meant CupriSorb, not Cupramine :).
<Ahh!>
I was not sure about the success in detecting inactive Copper from products such as Cupramine, however I am
certain the mass spec can detect about anything.
<Yes. BobF> 

Live Rock...How Much, What Kind? - 09/25/05
Thanks again.
<<Always welcome>>
How much LR would I need for bio-filtration for my 55 gal.
FOWLR setup?   I've heard that the conventional formula is 1 lb. per gallon, but then I've also been told that this rule is pulled out of the air.
<<Pretty much, yes.  Many factors to consider...quality of the rock, tank bio-load, ancillary filtration, etc..>>
I was advised that 10 lb. would be sufficient for my setup.
<<Possibly...I prefer a very open rock structure that doesn't fill/overwhelm the tank to allow room for fish to swim/grow, water to flow...>>
What type of LR would you recommend?
<<The best you can afford.>>
How good is the Tonga and Marshall Island branch style rock?
<<Some of the best.>>
Could you also recommend the best place online where I can purchase LR?
Thank you.
<<If you're only going to purchase ten pounds or so (you'll probably find you need closer to 20 lbs.) you'll fare better getting it through your LFS.  This way you also get to hand-pick your rock.  Purchasing on-line generally requires a minimum quantity (35-45 lbs.), but if you so choose, maybe check the BB's (reefs.org, RC) to see where folks are getting good quality rock these days... Regards, EricR>>

Looking for the freshest possible Fiji live rock  9/16/05
G'day Crew...I've Googled till my fingertips bled...I've read WWM FAQs till my eyeballs
dried out but am unable to answer what should be a simple question: which e-tailer can provide the absolutely freshest Fiji live rock delivered to southeast Georgia (in North America, not Asia) in order to maximize survival of the organisms ? Here are the details...I have a sterile 90 gallon refugium waiting to receive its first installment of 'critters' but can't locate a supplier willing to commit to a shipping span from sea to tank for Fiji live rock of less than "a week or so".  Can you point me towards a source or should I wait for Tom Hanks to make a sequel to "Castaway" Thanks again for the great resource at WWM. John <You have pretty much already answered your own question.  Purchasing live rock online and having it shipped is always going to result in a certain amount of die off that you will have to slightly cure in your tank.  I have yet to come across an e-tailer that is willing to commit to anything less then what you are finding.  Unfortunately this is the current state of purchasing live rock via the internet.  Good luck!  ~Heather aka LinearChaos>

Where to buy live