Sweeper Clown in DSB, Clown comp., plenum des. 3/19/08
I swear
I've read every link and question on this page! I love your site and my
husband kids me "are you reading about fish again!" My question is, I
currently have a 20 gal DSB with a plenum (running with live rock since
2001) that is working great. I followed the directions precisely from
Bob Goemans book on Deep Sand Beds, but it seems that reading through
this site, my gravel I used is coarser than the sugar fine you recommend
(I used Aragonite reef sand). I am planning to upgrade to a 120 gal
(24x24x48) tank and want to set it up with a DSB
also, but perhaps
eliminating the plenum (as it appears to not be critical).
<Correct
also>
My current tankmate is a Tomato Clown that loves to take her
tail and sweep the bed down to the first screen. I worry that it'll
upset my system, but nitrates, nitrites and ammonia are all zero, pH
8.4, sp grav ok., so she seems to not be causing too much havoc to the
chemistry. My question to you is what do you think about adding a screen
in the middle of my new DSB to keep her from sweeping down to the glass
in the new tank?
<Is done quite frequently... the "fiberglass" one
(vs. metal)...>
My 2nd question is around using my current bed to
seed my new tank (even though the sand is coarser than preferred).
Could I use the top layer to sprinkle on the top of my new sugar fine
bed?
<Mmm, yes>
Should I throw away the bottom level or can I
rinse it and reuse it as well?
<Can be re-used>
I'm also setting
up a refugium and may use a DSB in that as well. I've read Bob Fenner's
comments on keeping the DSB in the refugium versus the display tank, but
I'm nervous about not having a DSB in my main tank, since it's treated
me so well in such a small tank. It would be much cheaper to outfit the
refugium with a DSB than the main tank, however. Thoughts?
<I am the
same BobF who still prefers remoting DSBs>
His Reef Invertebrates
book just arrived at my door last night, but not seeing as many pros and
cons on that subject as I had hoped.
<If memory serves, they are
there>
Your FAQ sections on DSB has varying opinions which is to be
expected. I'm just excited about my new tank and want it to be the best
home for my Tomato... she's going on 7 years old now and she deserves a
bigger house.
<Ahh! Have seen A. frenatus and A. melanopus clowns
that have been in captive settings for more than two decades>
One
last question, since she is my anchor fish, are there any sites or
places I can go to find the best tankmates for her?
<Mmm, perhaps
Joyce Wilkerson's book on the subfamily>
I've read Michael Paletta's
"New Marine Aquarium" and he has a nice list of fishes to put together,
which would be nice if I was starting out new, but since I have her, I
need to build her tankmates around her. Any input would be appreciated,
have been planning for months and am looking forward to moving from
planning to implementation.
I love this hobby!!! Jean
<Me too. Bob
Fenner>
Sand Plenum Material, Use Plastic Egg Crate, Not
Metal. 5/8/07
Hi guys,
<A gal with you tonight
mate!>
First I would like to say thank you very much for your
invaluable information, which has helped me alot <a lot>.
<Great to
hear!>
I have a simple question, I wasn't able to find any egg crate
material in plastic, however I did find some in aluminum. Is it wise to
use aluminum in my salt water aquarium as my plenum base
<Mmm, no,
it is not wise to use aluminum.>
or should I keep looking until I
find the plastic egg crate grill?
<Yes, keep looking, you might try
the lighting department of your local home improvement / hardware
store.>
Cheers
<And to you! Mich>
<Mmm please, next time
use "I" not "i", thanks.>
Nutrient Export, Plenums, And More!
I have some high Nitrate (80mg/l) and phosphate (3mg/l) problems in a
24month 80gallon set up. (Hope my conc. units are right). The setup gets
a 5-10% water change on a weekly basis and is stable with a medium/high
load of eight fish, two shrimp and a blue lobster. I tried to introduce
an anemone but it never fully open and unfortunately starved. I also
have a bubble algae problem.
(The set up is in two tanks 55gallon
which cascades its water to a 30gallon tank which then returns to a
wet/dry sump in the basement with protein skimmer, mechanical filter,
carbon, heater UV then back to the 55gall tank)
So. my two questions.
1. Will I realistically be able to get phosphate down to a reasonable
level for anemones and reduced algae? What should I aim for and will
aluminium oxide be the most economic route. The phosphate comes
presumably from accumulation from food.
<Well, ideally, you want to
shoot for <0.05mg/L on phosphate, and less than 10mg/L nitrate, if you
can. I think that it is certainly possible to lower phosphate in your
system. I think that there is certainly some phosphate coming from food,
but there is also probably some phosphate in your source water. If you
aren't using one already, you should look into an RO/DI unit, which can
help you start off with more pure water. Another thought is that the
mechanical filter which you are using needs to be cleaned (or have the
media contained within it changed) more often (maybe twice a week). High
nitrate and phosphate are definitely signs of nutrient accumulation.
Attacking both together is possible. Your goal here should be to
maximize nutrient export mechanisms. Your water change schedule is good;
you may even want to try 2 smaller (5%) changes per week, to dilute the
nutrients before they have a chance to accumulate. Also, try to really
adjust your skimmer until it yields at least a couple of cups of dark,
yucky skimmate a week. It may take a fair amount of tweaking, but it is
possible to get good results if you work with it. I'd employ extra
chemical filtration media, such as PolyFilter (my personal favorite).
This stuff really works! Make sure that you are using a high-grade,
phosphate-free carbon, and change it regularly. Another though would be
to employ "purposeful" macroalgae, such as Chaetomorpha, Gracilaria, or
Halimeda, and harvest them regularly. They will utilize many of the same
nutrients that your nuisance algae are-and they will ultimately beat out
the lower algae. Harvesting them essentially removes nutrients from the
system directly...yep- it works!>
2. I have tee'd off a connection
from the wet /dry to a 80gallon 40x20" footprint Rubbermaid container
which will act as a plenum (or it could be a refugium) and new sump. The
water will be pumped back to the wet/dry on a recycle loop. I am
planning on using 160lb of aragonite coarse coral mix as a 4-5" bed over
a 1" plenum space.
<Well, a plenum is a very useful tool if
constructed correctly. It does require specific void space, particle
size, etc, so do read up carefully if you plan on pursuing a plenum
setup. Don't deviate from the established methods for constructing
plenums- the techniques and guidelines were developed after a great deal
of research. Check out Bob Goemans' web site (saltcorner.com) for much
more on plenums. Bob is the authority on this system in the U.S., and
can really give some great input! If you opt for a remote deep sand bed
without a plenum, try a fine, oolithic aragonite like Carib Sea's
"Aragamax" Sugar-Fine sand, and shoot for 4 inches or more.>
I have
read that the plenum relies upon slight convective currents to effect as
large an anoxic denitrifying layer as possible. Also since the
sump/plenum is in my basement I am concerned about temperature control.
I figure that I will put 30ft of 150W heating cable under the aragonite
to deal with heating needs and achieve some convective mixing through
the aragonite bed. Do you think this will work - will it be beneficial?
<To be quite honest with you, I have not seen this done before...It is
an interesting idea, but I'm not sure whether or not it is worth the
effort...I'd really encourage you to contact Bob Goemans on this one!>
The reason I started thinking of the cable heater is that the plenum
will be in my basement which is about 40degF at the moment and only
50-55 in summer. I live in New England. I figured that the Rubbermaid
tank itself (even although it will be insulated) would need some degree
of heating and then subsequent small power head or air lift to get some
recirculation.
<Absolutely...I agree>
However this would NOT help
the maintenance of temperature within the aragonite bed which would
depend upon conduction for its heat from the main liquid bulk. Next I
figure that the microbiological rates are probably favored by
maintaining a reasonably high temperature 80degF (not necessarily trying
to seek thermophilic organisms). Therefore I have to find someway to
keep the substrate at80degC.
<Very logical approach>
Cable heating
is used here and there for encouraging plant growth in non-marine
aquarium and this suggested to me what might work as a possible solution
together with enhancing some flow through the sand bed. All the reading
I have done to date - as you states - suggest some but only a slow
vertical flow of water through the bed is recommended for the plenum to
maximize its anoxic layer. However no where seems to suggest what is too
fast or too slow.
<Well, as you would probably agree-the faster and
more efficiently that nutrients are turned into energy, the better your
water quality will be. So, it's important to create a system to foster
these process...I do see the logic in your method...very interesting!>
Even with my proposed setup I will not know what vertical linear flow
rates I will be achieving anyway. My intent was to concentrate the
heating cable into three longitudinal strips so that there will be
cold:hot:cold:hot:cold:hot:cold strips the length of the
tank (hope
this is reasonable explanation).
I will be using 110VAC roof de-icing
cable. (I have ground fault trip electrics and will be very cautious).
The cable is water proof and fully plastic coated therefore should be
okay for continuous immersion.
<I have no experience with this
device...do proceed with caution if not using an aquarium-specific
heater cable system...>
Initially I intend on leaving the cable on
24hours but could put this on a timer if the mass transfer does not seem
to show that the plenum is doing its stuff of removing nitrate. However
I will wait 12months to be sure everything has had a chance to mature
and monitor concentrations along the way.
<Sometimes standing back
and letting nature do its job really is the best procedure>
I must
admit that I was torn between setting up a refugium in place of the
plenum and instead using plants and light. Do you think maybe I should
do half and half and plant Caulerpa (sorry about the spelling) with a
plant spectrum 24" florescent tube on one half.
<I am very
anti-Caulerpa for a variety of reasons- I'd use different macroalgae for
this purpose...but do utilize some macroalgae. Perhaps you may want to
employ a "non-plenum" DSB in your main system, and add the refugium in
line? Just a thought...>
However - if I do then I will not know if
the main idea ever worked....
<Ahh- the joys of experimentation!>
Lastly, my skimmer is a CPR BakPak which is a small footprint venturi
in-sump skimmer but only rated to 50gallon. I have not had a chance to
read through all the skimmer stuff you and others have posted here - but
I did see the stuff Snailman posted and this sparked enthusiasm to do
this next. However I do need to finish and get this plenum up first.
<Well, a skimmer is so vital to your system that you may want to push
the skimmer up to number one on your list...The Bak Pak is a great
skimmer- but I think it's operating at the edge of it's range in this
system, so an upgrade is highly advisable here!>
Lastly, lastly I did
not add in the previous email that before the plenum I will be putting
in a 30gallon trash can with flow distributor filled with polystyrene
peanuts to act as a trickle filter to also increase my ammonium
denitrification. The water will drain through the trash can trickle
filter by gravity into the plenum. Currently my ammonium is 0.2-0.3
(don't know the unit) but anyway low range but detectable. I figure for
minimal expense I could get more aerobic degradation. I built this piece
ahead of deciding on the plenum which will presumably also achieve the
same end effect of further NH3-> NO3 oxidation in addition to
the
anoxic denitrification. I have read elsewhere that this is not
recommended as enhancing the NH3 oxidation will increase my NO3 problem.
<That's my thinking...>
This seems logical but at worst case if all
the NH3 is shifted over to NO3 - I am only looking at a small increase
in NO3 to my current concentration. Thanks for your comments and any
further thoughts are appreciated.
<Well, you certainly have some
great ideas and a nice approach! I think that simple, biological-based
systems are always best. You will be surprised at how a simple idea,
such as a deep sand bed (with or without a plenum), a great skimmer,
good husbandry, and live rock can do the trick. Check out Anthony
Calfo's "Book of Coral Propagation" for some more information on the
concepts that you touched on. Also, You may want to pick up "Live Sand
Secrets" by Bob Goemans for a simple review of plenum dynamics. Most of
all-Have fun! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
Plenum,
Yes! Jawfish-No!
Bob,
<Scott F. on call today>
I have a 75
gallon reef tank with a plenum. It has been working very well. I would
like to add a blue spotted jaw fish to the tank, but I'm concerned that
even with the protective screen below the first layer of sand the jaw
fish will disturb the plenum system to the point of severe problems with
my system. What do you think?
<Your concern is definitely valid. Even
with the plenum screen in place, It is too disruptive to have this fish
in a plenum-equipped tank, IMO. I'd rather keep these guys in a separate
aquarium assembled just for their special needs. The fish will do
better, display more readily, and both you and the fish will be happier
in the long run. Good luck! Scott F.>
Planning A Plenum!
Hello WWM crew,
<Hello! Scott F. here with you>
I am in the
process of changing sumps on my 130 gallon reef tank. I have finished
glazing a 40 gal tank to be used as a Jaubert Style plenum. My question
to you : I purchased an undergravel filtration plate to operate as the
plenum, rather than using pvc and egg crate.
<To be honest, I would
not use the UG filter plate. My concern is that these plates may not
have enough slots and holes on the surface. This could restrict the
diffusion of nutrients in and out of the plenum, and could create
long-term problems. I'd really go for the egg crate. Make sure that the
plenum area height is around 1 to 1-1/2 inches, BTW. >
The UG plate
fits lengthways perfectly, but there is a 2" gap either side width ways.
<I would not be overly concerned about that gap. Just make sure that the
screen is "folded" in such a way as to prevent more sand from getting
under the plenum.>
I intend to use netting to cordon off the
plenum, and divide the sand layers, so would this gap either side reduce
the effectiveness of the plenum / render it useless ? I personally don't
think that a 2 inch gap on each end would be disastrous. I'm more
concerned about that UG plate, actually>
Also, in terms of substrate
and layers, I intend to lay a 3" deep layer of coarse sand first, cover
this in netting, then add a top layer of finer sand, which will be
populated by sand churning critters - does this sound correct ?
<I'd
use the "traditional" 2 inches of depth for the layer atop the plenum,
then add the screen, and top layer of sand. It's really important not to
"improvise" the plenum construction. The plenum depth, sandbed depth,
etc. were developed after many years of research by people like
Jaubert, Goemans, and Gamble. These numbers do work! Lots of people who
claim that plenums "don't do the job" often have not followed the
"blueprints" for its construction. Don't be one of them! Frankly, I'd
avoid large populations of sand-stirring creatures in the plenum system.
Too many of these animals can convert some of the anoxic areas of the
sandbed to aerobic ones, which can drastically reduce the efficiency of
the system. If you are concerned about excess detritus in the sand bed,
you can very lightly siphon the top 1/2 inch of sand, but I would not go
deeper.>
Thank you guys Andrew Hough
<And thank you for stopping
by, Andrew! Do check out Bob Goemans' web site, www.saltcorner.com, for
more information on plenums from the master himself! Good luck!>
Plenum Practices!
Hi
<Hi there! Scott F. at your service!>
Just found your Q & A site brilliant, can't find answer to my question
which is about plenum filtration:
Rena plates, you know the ones that
snap together, if I lift them up on plastic tubes to make an inch water
gap, use some plastic screening to seal the front edge (tank is a 55 gal
bowfront Juwel) of the filter bed cover with coral gravel then another
screen then coral sand would this produce the same effect as the egg
crate plenum system. The only difference I can see is that I would not
be covering the top of the Rena plates as they only have small slots in
them, the 1st plastic screen would only be placed in the front to seal
the filter bed where the plates don't fit snug to glass because of the
bow.
<Just be sure that the window screen material "overlaps" the
plates and extends as close to the front glass as possible. Also, you
could expand the size of the holes on the plates. Sounds fine
otherwise!>
I could then use the up lift to start the bacteria
process once established remove power head and up lift and monitor
system before adding live stock.
<Your idea sounds quite workable.
Just make sure that you follow the generally accepted principles of
plenum construction (i.e.; height of sand, void space, etc. These have
been developed after much testing, and generally do not work well when
we "improvise"!>
Other filtration for this fish only tank as well as
the plenum would be:
1 Fluval 203 canister filter with spray bar the
Juwel filter system (foam pads and power head)
1 extra power head for
circulation (not filtration once removed from plenum system)
How far
off am I?? Yours, Chris
<Actually, Chris- it sounds like you're on
target here! For a lot more on plenums, check out Bob Goemans great
site- saltcorner.com. Lots of good information from one of the leading
hobby supporters of the plenum method! Have fun! Regards, Scott F>
- Plenum in 29 Gallon Mini Reef -
My new 29 g tank and stand will
be in this week! I purchased a 2x65 w pc retro kit (one 10,000k & one
actinic). I have a BakPak skimmer (I plan on adding a hang-on refugium
in the near future also). I constructed a plenum this weekend using the
plans from the GARF web-site (eggcrate sitting on 1 inch PVC covered
with nylon screen). I have a couple questions about the plenum. I
planned on using 100% live sand (3-4 inches) instead of the suggested
substrate on the GARF site. Will this be a problem?
<Probably.>
Will the sand stay on top of the nylon screen or will it eventually work
its way down into the plenum?
<It will work its way down in time.>
Could I, or should I use a thin layer of crushed coral directly on top
of the plenum underneath the sand bed?
<Yes.>
The DIY plans call
for a second layer of screen to be placed in the middle of the sand bed
to avoid disturbance to the system.
<Correct.>
Is this second
layer of screen necessary in your opinion?
<Yes.>
Also I plan on
adding approximately 30 lbs of live rock. Should I add the rock and sand
at the same time?
<Yes.>
Thanks for your help. I'm trying to get
all the help I can to avoid too many alterations in the future.
<Honestly, I'd skip the plenum in your case - you just don't have enough
volume in the tank to sacrifice this space, and because of the small
size of this tank is going to give a net effect of almost zero. I think
you'll have more problems than solutions with this setup. Would be
better off just doing a deep sand bed with live sand and use the live
rock.>
Thanks for maintaining the great site.
<Cheers, J -- >
Type and depth of sand for a plenum
Hi, first time writing in so
a little nervous, please be gentle. Have read many articles on WWM, in
fact so many that I think my head is going to explode. My question is
about my plenum, I had a plenum system 55g, setup for 4-5 years,
everything was great, but then things started to die off, the coralline
and fish etc. so I tore down the system cleaned out the plenum and put
it back in, with 2" of crushed coral on top of the plenum and NO sand.
<< I'm not sure the plenum was the problem from the first time. I don't
think I would have removed it and started over. >> Now I know from
reading at WWM that this is the wrong way to do it. So my question is
this, can I just add the sand right on top of the second screen, on top
of the crushed coral? << Sure can. >> Or do I need to tear it down and
clean the crushed coral (replace?) Will the crushed coral be full of
gunk that I need to clean out first? << Was the crushed coral used in
the tank previously? If so, I'd probably take and wash it out. If not,
then don't worry about it. You can add sand right on top. I'd do this
slowly adding a half inch at a time. It will slowly work its way down
and go beneath the crushed coral. >> Or will putting the sand on top be
ok? It has been up and running the way it is now, for close to a
year, no sand on top of the plenum, so I wasn't sure if just putting the
sand on top would be ok, or if it would just trap a bunch of gunk that
is in the crushed coral. << If it has now been up for a year don't do
anything. Just let it keep going. >> Also one other thing, you talk
of a DSB needing to be 4+, why does a plenum setup not need to be that
deep, I am assuming because of the plenum? << I would still have it that
deep. I think 3" is perfect with or without a plenum. >> Does the sand
on top of the plenum need to be deeper than 2"? << I don't know if it
needs to be, but I think it will do better if it is 3"-4". >> Ok I think
that about covers it. Thanks for your
help and I love the site.
Thanks, Robert Cline
<< Blundell >>
Plenum Vs. UG Filtration
4/1/05
Howdy Bob and Anthony.
<Howdy>
Anthony, I've
received and read your book. Marine life is simply amazing isn't it? I
have ordered your and Bob's book of reef inverts. Can't wait.
<Thanks
kindly!>
Well, as you have both told me, I am actually running an
undergravel filter instead of a DSB/Plenum (I assume due to the risers
and powerheads). 55 and 33 gallon tanks. Question is, I am re-vamping my
90 gallon for my farming project and would like to know the benefits of
true DSB/Plenum vs. UG DSB/plenum systems.
<Ahhh... When the "Reef
Invertebrates" book arrives, you will have our current opinion at great
length... about 100 pages on live sand, DSBs, refugia, plants and
algae!>
(90 gallon used to have 4"crushed coral bed and Nitrate
levels off the charts :() My UG tanks are actually doing quite well,
except the pH will not stabilize higher than 8.1, buffered every day.
Simply put, would you recommend DSB on bare glass, DSB on plenum with no
risers, or DSB on Plenum with risers?
<A static bed on bare glass is
fine>
I am open to any of these, I do love the looks of the DSB. I
want a pH of 8.3, as I would like to do mass Xenia production in this
tank. Does the rapid denitrification process of the UG/DSB really hurt
my dreams of 8.3 pH, or should this be possible in time?
<On the
contrary... DSBs support Ca/ALK, and pH>
GARF suggested the
UG/DSB/Plenum, but advised removing risers at later dates.
<It's a
waste of time IMO>
I have read article after article regarding this
matter and everyone has different ideas.
<Mine are backed up with the
use of 48,000lbs of oolitic sand, 5,000-8,000 galls of saltwater, and
over a decade of experience FWIW>
I believe you and Bob come across
as having the most knowledge of all who I read from on this subject. (No
offense to WWM crew of course) BTW, I chopped the heads off my mushroom
Sarco only to find the insides rotten.
<Ughhhh! Sorry to hear it>
All frags doing great, but the mother colony has these little brown
"bugs" crawling around on the freshly cut stumps. I left 1 head and cut
2 heads off. All frags and momma head doing great visually. Should I be
concerned with these bugs?
<Its hard to say with a pic or better
description than "bugs" <G>. They are likely no trouble>
Broad
question, I know, but these little guys are like the size of a "speck"
or grain of sand. They do move around if I poke them. This is my
broodstock tank and I want to be careful here.
Thanks for everything
guys. Your pupil, Mike Toole
Detroit, MI
<With kind regards,
Anthony>
Dinosaur marine undergravel filter - Hey, if it
works! 11/1/05
Bob. after reading several opinions from your
website, it seems my undergravel filter system is out of vogue according
to several experts.
<Heee! Define "vogue", "experts"...>
I have
had this setup (twin filter plates in 55 gal tank, 2 powerhead 400's in
back corners, a Skilter 400 skimmer/filter system and full length
Coralife lighting). I don't want to remove my filter plates if possible.
Would blocking my uplift tubes or a reverse flow system be better
alternatives?
<Yes... would create what "modern experts" call a
plenum>
What precautions should I take be bore converting to either
method?
<None really... could perhaps add a bit more substrate.
Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/Plenums.htm and the linked Related FAQs at
top. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Sincerely, Randy Stewart
Amount of substrate
Bob-
If I resituate the NNR in the sump
then how much substrate should I put in the main tank, how big of a sump
do you recommend and what type of lighting should I use in the sump.
Also, should I place some live rock in the sump as well.
Do you
recommended this because it is more effective or because the amount of
substrate in the main tank is ugly to look at?
Thanks again.
Rob
The biggest sump you can fit is the best... And about the same amount of
depth... depending on the grades of substrates used for the NNR in the
sump... and Yes, I'd place more live rock... and a light over the
sump/NNR... and culture Caulerpa there... with the light on 24h/day.
and a blend or preferences re resituating the NNR to the sump... both,
but more functionally versus aesthetics... It's far easier to manipulate
a remoted NNR than thrashing about in your main tank!
Bob Fenner
Hi Again Bob,
I'm not sure I understood your response. Did you mean
it's OK to use 2-3 inches of sand without the plenum? If not, what
problems would/could I run into down the road without a plenum?
Thanks,
Tony
>>
Yes to the three incher... And all sorts of
anaerobic nasties problems are possible with poorly built, maintained
plenums... algae outbreaks, hydrogen sulfide wipe-outs, a loss of any
appreciable calcium...
Bob Fenner
Plenum in the Sump
A couple questions I thought of as I planned my building of a plenum in
my Rubbermaid 40G sump.
There is very little light if any (even
during the day) in my sump because it will be in my stand that is
located within an alcove in my home. Is there any reason (or benefit) of
having a light on over my plenum/sump? The Caulerpa will be in the
filtration compartment turned refugium in the back of my Sea Clear
System II tank.
<Hmm, yes... if you intend to put some sort of
photosynthetic life in the sump/refugium... I would... and it will make
it easier to work on...>
Do I still need to "churn" the sand in my
remotely located plenum? I guess I would do this by hand because it's in
the sump? How often?
<Not much or often... maybe half of it a month,
just the surface... i.e. not the larger grade material beneath the
mid-screen...>
Are there any benefits of 4" of total substrate as
opposed to the 3" (1.5" each) you suggested?
<Mmm, yes... if
sufficient/proper grade, shape/angularity... more is better... if not
and the material channels, clogs, no...>
As you know, the Rubbermaid
container is not "see through", so I will only have the top view of the
plenum as visible. Is there any warning sign of a problem I might miss
by not having the side view of the layers? Build up of "black areas" as
an example?
<IMO/E, not really... smell can be a clue... but
measuring, recording the alkalinity, some biomineral like calcium will
tell you enough "of the story".>
What type of sand should I use on
the top layer? Live sand or regular aragonite and wait for it to become
live.
<The latter in all frankness...>
Because the plenum is in
my sump and has no live rock above it, there will be not much to make
non-live sand turn "live"... is this correct?
<Not really...
anything live in any part of the system will quickly find its way (if it
lives in such settings) to the "sand".>
I don't mind spending the
extra $$$ if
there is a benefit to using the already live stuff.
<Not much in this set of circumstances... I would place live rock, some
Red and or Green algae/s and lighting here as well though.>
Thanks to
you as always,
Eugene
<You're welcome my friend. Bob Fenner>
Plenum in my sump?
I almost hesitate to ask you another question,
for the fear of being burdensome, but I really appreciate your quick
replies and candor.
<Okay>
To recap, I have a 55 gallon fish only
tank with live rock and live sand.
The purpose of my next project is
natural nitrate reduction and increased water capacity. Should I build a
sump or a refugium?
<A very good route to go>
I only have room for
about a 10 or 15 gallon tank inside my stand. My wife will let me do
whatever, as long as I don't take up more space than I'm already using!
:-)
<I understand>
Will a plenum sump or a Caulerpa refugium be
"better" for lowering nitrates?
<Overall... the Caulerpa if you had
to choose... you don't have to... you can/could have both in the same
sump...>
Does the water "sit" in the plenum sump long enough to get
pulled into the plenum for nitrate reduction? Especially in a small 10
gallon sump?
<Hmm, yes... enough... Brownian motion, osmosis
occurs... with agitation/circulation by whatever pumping mechanism
you're using to move the water thither and fro>
You mentioned the use
of Lights of America florescent lighting.
<I did?>
So their
standard bulbs' Kelvin rating is sufficient for Caulerpa?
<Close
enough...>
Can you have too
much light?
<It is possible...>
I have their 55W florescent flood lights
(http://www.lightsofamerica.com/outdoor.htm model 9027) which gives off
a lot of white light, but I'm not sure if it's the right temperature for
Caulerpa. I have two, and outside of the California energy crisis, I
have no problem with using both if it will benefit the plants. My friend
who used to work there thinks that they're around 4,000K - 5,000K.
<Some, yes... best to test for yourself...>
Whether I create a sump
or refugium, here's what I plan to do... please give me a thumbs up if
you think it will work... I'm concerned with functionality, cost and of
course NO FLOODS.
<Okay>
- Purchase a CPR overflow to take water
out of my main tank.
- Hook up that overflow with rubber tubing to
siphon?
<Yes>
water down to my sump/refugium.
- Fill the
sump/refugium with:
- If Sump: all that stuff that makes up a plenum
system
- If Refugium: small pieces of live rock, no substrate, and a
lot of Caulerpa
- I assume only about 70% full of water to account
for "backflow"
<Hmm... do "practice" this by purposely unplugging the
recirculation pump... marking the sump at the "highest" full point...>
- Lights of America CF lights
- A RIO 800 pump (or do I need larger)
<S/b big (pressure/flow) enough...>
placed inside the sump/refugium
with the output connected to rubber hose to push water back up to the
main system. Can I put the end of the rubber hose inside the last
chamber in my main tank's protein skimmer so that there is only one
return tube inside the main tank?
<Yes... just make sure it is
secured from wiggling free...>
I assume because it's a overflow type
return tube on the CPR BakPak, it won't overflow the protein skimmer.
<Likely not>
Is it really this simple? Or am I missing something that
will cause my system to flood or be harmful to the aquarium in any way?
<This IS about it... Bob Fenner>
Thanks as always...
Re:
Plenum in my sump?
Will a plenum sump or a Caulerpa refugium be
"better" for lowering nitrates?
<Overall... the Caulerpa if you had
to choose... you don't have to... you can/could have both in the same
sump...>
So you recommend a 15 Gallon Plenum Sump with Caulerpa
growing in it? I wasn't planning on partitioning the sump so it would be
one main area. Can this still work or should I just go the Caulerpa
route? Much obliged..
<I would do the "both" route here... even w/o
partitioning the sump in any way. No worries... and you will find
nitrates greatly reduced by utilizing both a means of denitrification
AND uptake. Bob Fenner>
Moving Substrate to sump, and what kind
of Carib-Sea to get?
Bob,
Thanks for your help recently.
<You're welcome>
I'm adding a 20 gallon or so sump to my 38 gallon
FOWLR. It will have a plenum and macro-algae. I currently have Carib-sea
Geomarine crushed coral in my main tank, about 1" deep. I want to change
to sand in the main tank.
<Good idea>
Three things:
I want to
use the crushed coral from the main tank as the bottom layer in the new
plenum for the sump. Is this the right size crushed coral for the bottom
layer, and is it o.k. to use the current crushed coral? Or is there a
better bottom layer material.
<Should be okay... use a plastic screen
mesh (like material available for screen door replacement) on top of
this layer and finer material (likely coral sand) on top...>
I want
to change to sand in the display tank. I'm hoping you are familiar with
the different Carib-sea kinds of sand.
<Yes>
What is the best
choice for the main tank. It won't be a deep sand bed. The choices are
Carib-sea pure Caribbean Aragonite(0.18-1.2mm), Carib-sea
Aragamax(0.5-1.02mm), or Carib-sea Special Grade(1-1.7mm) I would like
to have a blenny or starfish in the main tank.
<Myself... would go
with the last (Special Grade)>
Of the three Carib-Sea choices above,
what is the best choice for the top layer of the plenum?
<As stated>
Thanks a million, you're an excellent resource, and your book should be
arriving on my doorstep today courtesy of UPS.
Dan
<Be chatting,
and taking up your time... pleasurably, my friend. Bob Fenner>
Plenum/Refugium Substrate
Bob,
Hello! You have a wonderful and
informative site which is surely just and extension of your personal
endeavors. I have read quite a bit of your information posted and do my
best to check out each day's question and answers for odds and ends that
aren't necessarily covered in your categorized postings.
<Glad we
have found each other>
I have the following question for you: (in
summary)
What would you recommend that I use for the substrate in the
following setup:
180 gal w/overflow to 50 gal sump
Sump contains:
Aqua-C EV150, heater, return pump(2500 g/hr pump @ 6.5' of return 3/4"
tube), 20 lbs of live rock, and constructing a 16"x28"
plenum/refugium(24hr lighted with Caulerpa)
<Crushed coral of a
"medium" grade... #5, or nominally about an eighth of an inch diameter
(for looks, function in this size system)... unless (here come the
necessary stipulations, alternatives) you wanted to build a plenum
here... or have organisms in mind that require smaller, larger, mixed
aggregate...>
Mentioned above is a "work in progress" sump upgrade as
I currently have a temporary 29 gal (old unused fish tank) supporting
the return pump, live rock, and culturing Caulerpa. The temporary
skimmer is a CPR Bak pak. I'm currently breaking in the Aqua-C with
recycled water from today's water change, and one of the overflow
sponges which was heavily soiled.. (I mixed up some really nasty water
to break in the skimmer while I finish building the sump).
OK, where
my question comes... should I use aragonite sand in the plenum/refugium?
(wouldn't it dissolve and get clumpy. provides calcium/buffering
capacity, but I would have to tamper with it a bit on an annual basis to
replenish)...
<For this size sump, main tank I'd probably just use
live rock in the sump... not make it a plenum... not really large enough
for all...>
if regular maintenance is required anyway, should I
purchase "Miracle Mud" (...do you advocate the use of this?
<A
possibility... would start off w/o it at this juncture. Though am a fan
and friend of Leng Sy, the owner, manager of Eco System>
Michael
Paletta seems to be a little more than just a "user," more like he is
sponsored by "EcoSystem Aquarium."
<Do know Mike... and he isn't
paid at all by Leng... he is just enthusiastic about the application...>
Very little information is available around the web with
research/experiences),
<Do consult with the various electronic
bulletin boards, chat rooms here... there are many vocal folks with
experience out there. Ours: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/ ... look for
Des>
or should I use non-aragonite sand.
<Crushed coral would be
best all the way around, for most applications... calcium carbonate
based at the very least should be your goal>
My plan is 4-5" of
sand,.. hmmm, would all 3 be beneficial in specific substrate layers?
The sand will be suspended by perforated ¾” tubing (as the supports,
laying on their sides), plastic egg crate layer (across the tubes,
suspended above the plenum floor), and covered by a nylon screen to
prevent the sand (and micro-inverts) from passing through.
<Oh!
Please see: http://wetwebmedia.com/Plenums.htm>
BIO load - 2 sm
Sailfin tangs, flame angel, 3 damsel fish, 3 small patches of polyps,
100 lbs of 3 yr old live rock.
Of course, this is an ever running
work in progress, this was a 3 year established 55 gal tank. And since
my recent honeymoon(1 month ago) to Maui, HI, there will be plenty more
upgrades. We (my wife and I), became SCUBA certified while honeymooning
and spent 8 of the 14 days diving and/or snorkeling (diving gets
expensive!)
<There are ways to reduce costs... as you will learn>
in the Hawaiian waters! (Molokini is
best!)
<A fabulous compressed
cinder cone for sure>
My wishes to anyone who loves the marine life,
please, find the time and the money to go visit the life that you love
in their natural habitats. There is so much to learn.
<Wish I had
written the above! Wait, think I have once or thrice>
(And fun to
just watch and admire!) (Not only helps your own appreciation, but it
also helps when your spouse is able to see for their self what its all
about… it’s so much easier when the person who is sharing the bills also
appreciates the hobby! …but be warned, it’s only a slight advantage. :)
<Amen>
Thank you for taking the time to look over all this, and your
considerations.
-herb
<Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>
Plenum question
I just finished reading your article on Wet Web
Media.com, and was wondering if your used the same substrate through out
the bed will it effect the way it works?
<Which article, which
"way"?>
I wondering because my local fish store sells the CaribSea
reef sand and they sell live sand which is from their stock of CaribSea
live sand tank, it the same grade of reef sand. So is there a reason for
using two different types of grade such as crushed & sand?
<For some
folks... by and large in small captive systems one grade is best/better>
Thanks for any help in this matter. I'm am setting up a 120 gallon tank,
I'm stuck on the right way to go about setting the plenum up. thanks
again, Tommy
<Ah, for a plenum... here it is better to use two
grades... Please see: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Plenums.htm and the
FAQs beyond. Bob Fenner>
Plenum Design
I wrote you
recently about my 220 gallon sand bed reef tank. Your advice was to
start over, which I am doing tomorrow,
If I want to do a deep bed,
would you recommend all fine sand or medium deep with fine on top?
<Two grades, levels... as posited on WetWebMedia.com>
I was not
planning on a plenum this time. Do you recommend a screen between
layers? Thanks!
Ron
Re: Plenum Design
I am sorry, I
looked through FAQ and can't find my exact question's answer.
I take
it you recommend 2 grades of sand. Screen? Thanks.
Ron
<Yes my
friend. Sorry for the trouble. Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/Plenums.htm
and the FAQs beyond. Bob
Fenner>
Plenum
Bob & Co.,
<Steven Pro here this
evening.>
I am thinking about using a simple filter pad (1/2 in
thick) along the bottom of my tank as a plenum of sorts. Of course will
add aragonite etc. My thoughts are that the pad with its thick maze of
plastic media will allow for the anaerobic denitrification sought in a
typical plenum while giving surface area for the bacteria to
proliferate. Am I off here?
<I think that a 1/2" filter pad
underneath 4" of sand is quickly going to become a 1/10" filter pad that
is no longer porous. If you wish to do a plenum right, I would search
for some instructions from Dr. Jaubert. Many plenum systems have had
problems and many of those problems can be traced back to an incorrect
setup.>
Sincerely, Dennis Mao
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>
Plenum Riser Function??
Howdy to all!
<Jeff>
First, thanks
for your VAST resource of information. Well I have started 2 new reef
tanks for coral farming and propagation. Anthony, I have your book
ordered. The tanks are 33 long and 55. Both started with plenums
and DSB. Let's use 55 gallon here....(As both tanks have same results
and questions)
4-5 inch sand bed. 3/4 reef grade coarse sand, 1/4
sugar fine and live sand, all aragonite (All CaribSea) with a mesh
screen 1/2 way down. As per the instructions I followed (at GARF), I
installed a riser tube and have a 665 GPH powerhead on it. All seemed
very well. ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all zero. Alk 4.0-4.5, Calcium at
400-450.
Two Questions:
1) I was told to remove powerhead from
riser tube when ammonia and nitrite levels =zero. The tank cycled for
1.5 months (from startup) and all was great. Upon removing powerheads, I
found my tanks almost crashed. Ammonia=.50, Nitrite=>1.0, Nitrates at
15-20. I promptly re-installed the powerheads ( after 40% water changes
had little to no affect on Ammonia and
Nitrite) and overnight, the
readings were back to perfect. I thought I wanted a dead water space
under the plenum. Yes, No?
<Mmmm, well... yes... but what you had,
have is not a plenum... is actually a latter day undergravel filter...
replete with aerobic microbes... nitrifying bacteria...>
2) I seem to
have a pH problem. 8.05-8.10 is where it stays, even adding buffer. I
assume the answer has to do with the lack of fresh air, combined with CO2
from keeping all tanks in basement. I thought pH would be no problem,
with having over 100 lbs of aragonite substrate.
<Mmm, maybe some...
but more from your "speeding up" nitrification in the sand bed... this
is a reductive process (as in ReDox... reduction/oxidation... aka
acid-base chemical reactions... the stealing or giving away of
electrons...>
Again, thanks in advance as you guys are freakin'
fantastic!
<Whoa! Take it easy! We're just a bit more experienced
pet-fish types like you>
BTW, No skimmers running yet, only 2 Sarco's
in 55 and 2 colts in 33. I am picking up a phosphate test kit tonight to
see if that is my problem.
Mike Toole - Detroit, MI
<Mike, do
turn your skimmer on... Bob Fenner>
Cold Feet? (Plenum Setup)
4.3.05
Dear all,
<Just Ryan with you today! Sprung forward an
hour, and feelin' it!>
Please help me with some advice on setting up
my new tank. I am upgrading from a 70g tank to a 130g FOWLR, he main
difference being that I will now have a 70g sump. I am having fun
working on it and plumbing it all in without the usual inconvenience of
having water in the tank.
I had decided to go with a plenum system on
the advice of my local retailer, but after spending weeks reading
through massive amounts of debate on the net, your site, books etc, I'm
just getting more and more confused and worried about it. A main source
of problem for me is getting the latest thoughts, as I don't see many
new works on the subject. Loads from the 90's, such as my Tullock
Natural Reef book, but not so much recently.
<Today's SPS craze has
pushed demands on water quality through the roof- And thus the
technology is born and evolves. Today's use of high quality live rock,
precision skimmers and or refugia, and current/wavemakers seem to have
great results...But a plenum represents a simple, effective, filtration
method in the right application.>
Going through all the FAQs is also
confusing with different people giving different
ideas, and no dates
given, though it seemed clear that DSBs were gaining favour.
<We
have recently started dating the queries. However, I don't think that
the effectiveness is lost: They have forced you to visualize the entire
process, in more ways than you thought possible!>
If I do a plenum
system in the sump, with a lower layer of coarser 1-2mm non (less)
soluble sand, and an upper level of fine sugar sand, both 2-3 inches
deep, with screens between, is this still currently thought of as OK?
<Yes>
I will be using my skimmer. Is it best to put much live rock /
macro algae on the bed and use lighting? Or is it better to go without
the plenum and just use a DSB?
<I'd skip either in favor of a nice
circulation system and well maintained refugia. Although you haven't
mentioned what type of bioload/ecosystem you're interesting in keeping,
refugia opens all types of doors, without sacrificing nutrient control
ability.>
Thanks in advance
Peter
Southampton, England
<Good
luck! Ryan>
