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Marine Bettas
8/3/14
Clown Grouper - buoyancy issue 5/19/10 Six Line Grouper/Soapfish Compatibility
3/22/10
Clown Grouper/Soapfish transport fiasco... 1/10/09 Hello all, I can't tell if I'm smart, dumb, lucky or cursed... <Not mutually exclusive traits... have felt all... w/in the last day!> I suppose if we all had perfectly balanced aquariums with just right amount of healthy livestock and nothing ever died and there were no problems and all we had to do was feed and occasionally change some water... I think it may get... Boring? You have to change things around and stir things up... Experiment a little... Rock the boat so you can keep going out and buying stuff. Or is it just me? <Mmm, nope> So, my girlfriend (who is really somewhere between tolerant and supportive, but definitely not enthusiastic) has been in love with one particular fish. LFS has had a Clown Grouper Pogonoperca punctata for about three months. It is fat, healthy and I've seen it eat. It is out and about and clearly well adapted (psychologically) to captivity. <An unusually aquarium adaptive species in my experience> It has been housed with an ever-changing array of other Groupers, Triggers and Puffers. It's about 4 inches and truly a flawless specimen. I have researched them and knew that, assuming I could keep it alive, this would be a fine addition to my system. And $60 was a fair price. I have also read that it is one of a few fishes that are consistently NOT guaranteed by any on-line retailers to "Arrive Alive". I do understand why and this whole toxicity issue made me a little apprehensive. Did I mention this was the only fish my Girlfriend wanted? It's been there forever (in LFS terms) and the shop owner always asks when we're going to take him home. I have been absurdly low on cash and have no credit cards (amazing, huh?)... <So unlike the governments> I told him I would think about it after I got paid. Besides, these guys don't ship well... My luck, he would die in the bag... <IF given enough volume/space/water in a shipping bag, pure oxygen... this fish ships just fine> In jest, I said let me try him out... If he lives, I'll pay you later... Ha, ha... He grabbed a bag, netted him and handed him over. He said take him home. If he lives, give me $50 when you have it. If he dies, give me $50 when you have it... Now, I have a twenty gallon QT that has been up and running, anyway... Why not, right? I know that, just because a fish is thriving in my LFS, it is not necessarily pathogen-free... I know that this does not exempt him from quarantine... I know everything and am prepared accordingly... Fifteen. Count them... Fifteen frickin' minutes from LFS to my house. The following events make me wonder what the survival rate is on these guys being shipped from overseas... One in a hundred? Thank God she dropped me off at the house and went to get cat food... I walk in and look in the bag... This guy had vomited and was laying on his side. <A very good idea, no make that an absolute requirement, is NOT to feed such fishes for days prior to moving> His gills were sticking straight out and sort of trembling. Not even breathing rapidly - just gills protruding. I have seen this before under different circumstances with different fish and it has never turned out well. Allow me to preface the rest of this story... I'm $50 in the hole, while the fish-love of my girlfriend's life is about quarantined in the toilet... I'm livid and frantic. It occurred to me that we would be skipping any sort of acclimation. I said screw it... Netted him and tossed him in the QT. <Good. Is what I would have done> He floated, headlong and upside down to the bottom. I watched for about, say, a minute? Nothing... I ran to the computer to 911 research WWM... I'm sure there is some wonderful advice for this exact scenario, but... Anyway, I look again... Now, here's the dilemma: I realize that, if this guy has any toxins to release, now's the time... But, I also see that he is now breathing extremely quickly. Gills are actually moving. Unfortunately, he has settled into an upside down, half-propped position. Now, I start thinking that maybe he is continuing to poison himself in this tiny system. And the turnover is inadequate with only a sponge filter. Then, I start thinking that a big tank with lots of flow and quality water would dilute the toxin and help him breathe/recover. Assuming he didn't kill any other fishes... Assuming those were really tough fishes like my Trigger and Puffer... When my girlfriend walks in, I'm standing at our main display tank holding him, in my hand, in front of the powerhead. She thought I was petting him until I let him sink. Then he started some sort of convulsions. Then she left the room. I scooped him up and did this with the powerhead for hours... Hours. So, how did it end? This is a very tough fish that does not transport well, in my experience... But, by midnight, you would never know what happened. He eventually just started wiggling in my hand and swam away... Back and forth... Swimming with his new pals... Checking out every inch of the tank... I've got my fingers crossed - He was alive this morning... Just hanging out in his new spot, braced with his fins, as groupers will do. So, I skipped the acclimation... Skipped the quarantine... Any critique on how I handled this? Am I smart, dumb, lucky or cursed? Thanks! <I'd say you're on the border, path of enlightenment re Soapfishes... they do often "poison themselves" in not too careful handling, placement in small volumes (e.g. shipping bags)... particularly if not "starved out" prior to bagging... But due to your diligence, reading, and fast action... a group of tough bass-related fishes overall. Bob Fenner> Ego sum Pogonoperca punctata... Resurgam! 1/11/09 Bob and Gang, Just a quick update... I knew you were likely worried. <Is my nature> I wrote the other day about my new Clown Grouper... The one that managed to self-medicate himself into toxic shock, within minutes of being bagged... Anyway, he is doing oddly well. You mentioned that, in your experience, they were quick to adjust to aquarium life... Quite so. In fact, I am wondering why so much of the available information refers to them as shy and reclusive creatures, eventually becoming comfortable enough to come out from hiding, etc. We're on day three in his new home and he is definitely the show fish. Seems to be quite active, day and night... He swims from one end of the tank to the other in a very slow, deliberate fashion like he doesn't have a care in the world... Unlike the cracked-out, paranoid schizophrenia displayed by other fish (my Picasso Trigger). Anyway, that was a fun night. I realize that whatever I did worked... But, I would really like to learn from this... Under the circumstances, do you think that this fish would have recovered on his own, if just left as he was (upside-down with gills sticking out, not breathing)? <Mmm, maybe not... it might have succumbed, even been picked on... by the Trigger...> Or do you think that the CPR via powerhead helped? <Very likely it did> I'm not looking for a pat on the back (although I like to think that, one day, I will sit down with said fish and tell him the story of how I saved his life)...One other quick group of questions: I have to go to Waikoloa, HA from January 21st through the 26th, for a wedding at the Waikoloa Hilton (we're in a condo within walking distance). <Oh! I've stayed there a few times, taken many visitors there to see the fab grounds, artwork in the hallways... And still own part of a res. in the town of the same name mauka of there. Am out on Kona, mauka of Kailua as I key...> I've never been. Since my GF and I have no money, per se... And all I really want to do is look under the water... I am trying to see how realistic I am being about snorkeling. <Easily done... and the Hilton has a fab natural marine inlet to practice to your heart et al.s content there. Was in the water today at Ka'a lu'u... it's in the upper 70's F...> I have never done that either. But, I have a mask, snorkel, fins and some sort of life-jacket vest. I'm not asking for a crash-course in how to use the equipment... I will research this and, hopefully, practice in my bathtub (only half-joking)... <The Hilton has a bunch of neat pools at the location as well... do haul your stuff and practice there> I don't know how familiar you are with this particular beach, but here's my real question... Can I just walk out from my condo and hit the water? <Not the open ocean so much... but the lagoon in the middle of the prop.> If it's all sandy beach, will there even be reef-life? <Oh yes. Plenty> I hate to sound like just another moron too lazy to do my own research ("how many fish fit in a 20g tank")... But, the info I keep coming up with is extremely vague and mostly geared towards buying some sort of package deal. Do I need a guided snorkeling tour? <Nah> Do I need to spend money on this? <Nope> Any suggestion from a semi-local not trying to make a buck, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, again, Bob and/or Crew. Jonny in Los Angeles. <You'll enjoy and gain by the experience I assure you. A hu'i hou! Bob Fenner> 6 Line Soapfish Question, comp. in a bad place
6/23/08 Hi there, I have about an 80 gallon tank. There used to be
1 Volitans lionfish, 1 brown triggerfish, 1 spotted grouper, 1
white-faced tang, 1 porcupine puffer, 1 shark sucker. They do fine
together with the occasional playfulness on the part of the trigger.
<... this is way too much biomass, physiologically, psychologically
for this volume... the Remora/Sucker alone needs more than twice this
volume> 2 days I added a 6 line Soapfish/grouper. <...
Grammistids... can be toxic... esp. when/where stressed... Your
mis-over-stocked system is a bad example of stress personified in an
environment> He got used to the tank very quickly and even the
grouper has accepted him. I did my first feed with him yesterday and he
ate a healthy amount. He swims about freely and comes up to the front
of the tank very often when I stand in front. All the other fishes are
doing fine as well. <...> However, I realised that the soap fish
has a poisonous mucus. <Ah yes> Yes I didn't do my research prior
and purchased on impulse. <Happens (even to me... but not w/
petfish... much... all the time...> Am I in for trouble? <Yes...
all the way around> If he and the other earlier fishes seem fine now
and if I continue to do due diligence in partial water changes ensuring
tip top water conditions, can I assume that it will be ok and the other
fishes won't be poisoned by his mucus? What are the signs I need to
look out for as a preventive measure? Sorry for the trouble. Barry
<No trouble... but you need to read re your entire stocking... look
to securing a system of hundreds of gallons, or sell-trade out about
half the present specimens... Read re the Soapfish... move/sell it...
Bob Fenner> Soapfish And Grouper Compatibility 3/14/08 I was curious if a Grammistes sexlineatus and a Cephalopolis <Cephalopholis> miniata would go together in a 250 gallon aquarium.... Both are around 10-12" <I would not get the Soapfish, period. It is difficult to keep, aggressive, and has a poisonous mucus coat. When frightened, the poison grammistin is released and can/will kill other fish in a closed system. This toxin is almost always found in the shipping water. I'd look for a better companion. James (Salty Dog)> Coral Catshark and Soapfish 6/24/07 Hi again Crew! <Katie> I have been hearing some mixed information when it comes to this topic. Recently I purchased a Sixline Soapfish, a fish I have loved for a long time. I was aware that they produced a toxin in their mucus coating but I was under the impression that it was a defense mechanism, so of like with cowfish. How risky is it to keep these guys with other tankmates? <Mmm, not much... in a "large-enough", well-maintained system, minimal> Is it fairly rare to have them kill a tank full? <Yes... would have to be small, die, dissolve unseen...> He is currently in a 55 gallon but will make a move to a 150 gallon within the next month or so. <Good> Also, I plan on keeping a coral Catshark in the 150 gallon (until it outgrows it). I have heard that coral cat sharks mainly eat crustaceans and will not bother most fish, but I have also been reading lately that its not uncommon for them to attack tankmates while feeding....? <Mmm, yes, at feeding times at times... or most anything... bite rocks, what have you in a sort of "frenzy"> Does this mean its probably not wise to keep a coral Catshark and a Sixline Soapfish in the same tank, because of the toxins in the soapfish's skin? Thanks in advance for the help! -Katie <Not likely... most Grammistids are rather shy, secretive... and seem to be aware of such predation. I give you good odds of not having problems here... and if the G. sexlineatus should be consumed in this 150, I doubt if this would created a toxic situation. Bob Fenner> My soap fish won't eat 2 weeks now!! 6/3/07 Hi there! I have a soap fish (5.5 in) that is about 1.5 years now, and he hasn't eaten anything in two weeks! I cannot figure out why. We usually feed him silver sides since that's all he every has any interest in eating. <Trouble... nutritionally incomplete by itself> In the tank with him is a fox face( 4in), Niger trigger( 4in), porcupine puffer( 7 in) <These last two tankmates might be an influence here as well> and a snowflake eel( 12+in). The tank is 75 gallon (long). All of the other fish are great, they never refuse any food! We do 1/3 water changes every month and have a wet dry filter system <What is your nitrate reading?> along with a protein skimmer. The tank has live rock as well. Although I did add a lava stone about four months ago( not sure but it is a red stone, long, with two holes in it ) I read up on it before adding it to the tank and there was no sign of it being hazardous to the salt water tank. Once every two weeks I add 2 tablespoons of Fiji Gold Coral and live rock supplement to the water. Now in the past we have had trouble here and there getting him interested in food, but the longest he went w/out eating was ~5 days... This past week and a half I have tried, pellets, shrimp, scallops, silver sides, and snapper bits. He will not show any interest in any of these. Do you have any suggestions as to what to feed him? <Perhaps some live ghost shrimp... If you have other circumstances (like a sump, refugium...) I would move this fish as well> Is this normal behavior? How long do they usually live? <No and for several years> The past couple of days he has been swimming slower and seems to be sluggish (probably from lack of food) but there are no other outward signs of distress. I would appreciate any of your thoughts! Thank you, -January <Reads like either metabolic accumulation, aggressive behavior, and/or nutrient deficiency is at play here... Bob Fenner> Sixline GROUPER - Needs a good home !!! 10/30/06 Hi crew, I am taking my fish only system apart and am almost not able to do it just because of how much I like my grouper. This goes out to Bob F and crew only or other expert aquarist alike. I will give him away to the right home. Which to me means a large tank 150 gallons plus and someone who wants a grouper that likes to get petted not kidding). He is approx 7". Let me know, have a great day/night crew. -daN <don't know if anyone is interested in this Soapfish. it would probably be better to post in a forum somewhere ...then you can arrange local pickup, etc. good luck, IanB> He is also the most non aggressive fish, except when you feed him. Copper, basses/Soapfish - 05/29/06 Hi again, I have another quick question for you. Can you treat the sixline grouper with copper safe? <Yes> Have a feeling you can't. I already dosed my 60 gallon tank with 75ml as per instructions, but I do not think I did the right thing as the sixline is getting some white on him "draping". Should I get this stuff out of the tank ASAP? It has only been in the tank for two days. I have some poly filter I could put in. Thanks Again <Please see WWM re whatever you're trying to actually treat here, copper use... Bob Fenner> Soapfish Copper
Treatment...Panic - 05/30/06 Hi, I need to know if you can treat
the Soapfishes with Copper Safe. <<As far as I am aware,
yes...though I would proceed with caution/observe the fish closely for
adverse reactions/distress>> I have a clown grouper and sixline
that are in a tank I have treated with Copper Safe and think I may have
done the wrong thing. <<If this is the display tank then yes, you
have damaged your biological filter if nothing else>> They just
ate a good meal - so maybe I am wrong, but with the threads on your
site make me think otherwise. <<The result of a knee-jerk
reaction. You don't state why you thought you needed to
medicate the fish...but is obvious you didn't research
beforehand>> Should I Poly-Filter out the copper? Not
trying to rush you, I know it is a holiday and all - but my groupers
are really cool and I don't wanna lose them.
<<Understood...Yes, I would do a 30% water change and add
carbon/Poly-Filter to your filter flow path...and move the fish to a
hospital/quarantine tank if they truly need medicating>> I really
appreciate your info. Thanks - Dan <<Regards, EricR>> Also,
my water is in good shape - barely any nitrate, but I don't think
you can get it to zero while feeding groupers. <<Indeed...a
nitrate reading below 15ppm is generally considered
"acceptable" on most FO/FOWLR systems. Keep a
close eye on this and perform water changes as needed as you will
likely see a rise in nitrates until your bio filter
recovers. EricR>> Soapfish poisoned tank 1/31/06 I've had a
yellow-lined grouper (Soapfish) for 7 years with no
problems. Several weeks ago I had to do a rather large
water change (60%) <... too much> and introduced some new smaller
fish. <Oh oh...> Sadly, it seems I've had to
basically start over with balancing the tank. The grouper
stopped eating, my new Huma trigger and yellow tangs died two weeks
later, even after treating with copper (for parasites) and later an
antibiotic for my 10-year old maroon clown who appeared to be
suffering. A few days ago, the Soapfish/grouper developed
some sores which secreted puss. I briefly took him out today
and treated him with wound control (BIG MISTAKE) and put him back
in. Immediately, he emitted a white cloud of toxins
(grammistin?) <Yes, likely> that I was unaware could happen until
my online research tonight. Two damsels died, clown is
barely hanging in, and the grouper is weak. Treated the
tank with Prime and added a poly filter...is there anything else I can
do to save the fish and tank (it's been healthy for so many
years)?? <Keep changing water... add good quality activated carbon
in the filter flow path...> I cannot find any information on
treatment, and I'm worried about doing another water change so
quickly. Any advice would be appreciated. <I would if at
all possible, resist changing more than about a quarter of volume in
any system at one time... and that with pre-mixed/stored synthetic (if
not using natural). Sorry to hear/read of your travails. Your note has
likely saved many people similar anguish re keeping of Grammistids. Bob
Fenner> S.O.S. Pogonoperca punctata 8/23/05 Hello Bob, <Hi there> I'm Jo? Prata from Portugal. I hope you are fine. Some time ago, (maybe a couple of years) I found this site. I was having a problem with two angel fishes. One Apolemichthys trimaculatus and one P. annularis. After some days, treating them like you suggested (formalin baths) they recovered completely :))) <Ah, congratulations on your success> Well time past by and, between corals and fishes, here we're with Centropyge, Ltd. :)) I hope that soon Centropyge can, some how, reattribute your availability. <I look forward to this> I'm also writing to you, because I'm quite worried with one Pogonoperca punctata. She came to Centropyge about two moths ago, and, when I was thinking in finish the quarantine, I noticed a little white area at about 2 or 3 cm behind the pectoral fin.( the fish has about 10 or 12 cm length) <Mmm, this is a tough, hardy species, that usually ships well... likely this mark is resultant from a physical injury... getting whacked with a net, being dropped on the floor, running into a part of a holding tank...> This area is like a white circle with 2 or 3 mm diameter. I tried to take a little to see it in the microscope but it is some kind of mucus and it is very difficult to take out. The rest of the fish is really fantastic. She was eating live food and now she's already accepting frozen shrimp, etc. I tried with iodine in local, nothing... Some days after with sulfathiazole in water (0.5g / 100l), nothing..... some days after Metronidazole in water, permanent bath, (25mg/l), does not make any difference... I was thinking in neomycin but it really don't seem bacterial infection.... <I don't think this is actually a disease per se... and it will likely heal over, color-up with time (weeks to months) going by> 3 or 4 days ago, I saw a little eruption on the skin, just 1 cm away from the white mucus, and today, that eruption has gone but in its place, there is now another white area...about half the first but, with the same kind of mucus . Should I try Metronidazole in food 1% (250mg/100g )? <Yes, this is worth a try... as is Praziquantel. Just one dose each for both> I hope you can help me like the other time Best regards, Jo? Prata <Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner> Soapfish question My Soapfish is the lone member
of my 135 gallon aquarium. He has not eaten for more than 1.5 weeks,
which is unusual. <How long have you had him?> Also,
when I am not looking, he will lie on his side and breathe feebly.
Sometimes he swallows food then spits it out about 1/2 an hour
later! <Eek that doesn't sound good.> This may be due
to the following reasons: 1) He was caught by cyanide. <Once
again? How long have you had him? Do you know he was caught by cyanide?
Do you know the area he came from?> 2) There is contamination in the
aquarium of excess aluminum sulphate, magnesium sulphate and/or
2-Chloro-4.5bis(ethylamino)-1,3,5-triazine. <Okay this one
puzzles me? Did you test for this? Do you know there is contamination
and if there is then immediately the first thing to do is a large water
change to get this stuff OUT of the aquarium.> 3) Unknown cause or
liver damage. <Liver damage? Are you seeing any kinds of marks
or signs on your fish whatsoever?> Water parameters: Salinity: 1.025
pH: 8.2 Temp: 25 degrees Celsius Nitrate and nitrite: negligible (Water
is treated with water purifying powder and nitrifying bacteria.)
<How long has the tank been up? What is the water purifying powder?
What exactly does it do? Have you had your water tested at all?>
Someone please diagnose the problem and help me treat him ASAP!!!
<Hopefully you can help me by answering some of these questions and
we can get him on the road to recovery. Good luck, MacL> Soapfish sick, come quick... Another Answer? Gosh, it really seems that my aquarium hobby is falling apart. Just a few days ago, I had a virus and bacteria attack (I am still down with a fever).<I have not been completely healthy either. The weather has been crazy.> I am afraid that the pathogens in me might have infected my Soapfish. <I don't think that it is possible for a fish to get infected with a virus that has infected you.> A few days after giving him food, which I obviously had to handle, I noticed a day later that he had spat it out. Now he is currently lying on his side (while he thinks I am not watching) and will suddenly straighten up when he sees me. Also, his movement is awkward, as it comes and goes in sudden bursts. Occasionally he will make unexplained sharp turns for nothing. What should I do? Should I treat him with this brand of medication called ocean free? They have a product called general aid special which is used to cure unexplained problems in fishes. However I suspect the medication might contain malachite green or some copper compounds which may be harmful to Soapfishes. Someone enlighten me. <<Hello, MikeB here. I would say that the first thing to do is to test your water. If the ammonia or PH are out of whack it will cause the behaviour found in your soap fish. Second, Check for spots. Scratching is a sign for flukes or external parasites. I am not familiar with the medication that you mentioned but if it is broad spectrum anti-parasite medication that would work but test your water first. Always treat your fish in a quarantine tank. Good Luck. MikeB> > It seems that the water quality is fine. Also, no symptoms of the sort you mentioned! How? <I am sorry, but I need more information. When you say that the water quality is fine can you please tell me the parameters? I would like exact numbers. Also, darting is another form of scratching. I did not make this distinction when I was replying to your email. Fish will generally dart around in the water for two reasons (there can be other ones but these are the 2 most common) being chased by another fish, or trying to remove something on their body. Remember, they don't have hands to scratch themselves with. Also, I don't know what kind of medicine you are taking. Unless you are taking a topical skin medication it should NOT have an effect on your fish. I know of a great medication to fix the problem if it is flukes but either way you need to remove the fish from the tank and put it in a quarantine. It will cover the situation if something is picking on it and it will cover the water quality issue. Then you can treat it with either a parasite medication or bacterial medication. There is also the possibility that the fish has contracted an internal parasite and that would explain why the fish doesn't want to eat. Here are the medications I recommend...For flukes=Prazi Pro; For Bacterial= Quinsulfex; For Flukes= treat water and food with Metronidazole (Hex-a-mit). Good Luck. MikeB> A new 8 - 10 inch Soapfish - white line grouper - not
eating I just recently acquired an 8 - 10 inch white lined grouper,
or so called Soapfish. <Grammistes sexlineatus? This is a BIG
specimen if so> He was originally in a show tank at a furniture
store along with other huge groupers and a starry
puffer. Anyways, he was sent to the local aquarium shop for
sale. I bought him for 60 dollars - what a steal! Anyway, I
have a 125 gallon tank and he is swimming around with no problem. I
have had him since the afternoon of Friday 11/26. I feed my
smaller fish everyday. The first day, he didn't even
look at the krill. Second day, he swam by the krill that the
other triggers and groupers were eating. <Triggers and
groupers in a 125? Might well just be intimidated by the new tank,
tankmates... Did you ask the shop if they know what the original owners
were feeding this fish? I would> Tonight, he swam right up to the
krill, looked at it, then swam away. I tried feeding squid -
got the same result. My last resort is trying live fish. The
aquarium shop told me he ate krill the entire time he was there, for
about the last month, in a tiny 40 gallon tank with two other groupers.
Any suggestions how to get him to eat? If he doesn't eat
live fish, then what? <Any way to partition the tank to just have
the new fish by itself for a few days, weeks? Or do you have another
system to move it to? Soapfishes are decidedly NOT in the same league
as your other fish groups when it comes to aggressive feeding... Bob
Fenner>
Hello sir (#1 Soapfish!) I'm doing a project on Soapfish and have to make a 3d model...which one is like THE MOST common and be the best...I believe the black and white striped Grammistes sexlineatus ..right? thank you for your time.....write back Get more from the Web. <You are correct.... And a worthy specimen to model no less! Bob Fenner> Questions about the Sixline Soapfish, aka Gold-Stripe
"Grouper" Hello again Bob. I'm a bit confused about
this species after reading "The Conscientious Marine
Aquarist" as well as your website. A caption under a photo in your
book states that this species is unsuitable for the aquarium because it
exudes a toxic slime. Your website's Q&As, however, don't
mention this. SO, does this species give off a toxic slime? If so, is
it toxic to humans, tankmates, or both? Is it always oozing the stuff
out, or is it a situational deal like with cowfishes? Finally, would
this species be okay with triggers and the like, or is it too shy?
Thanks, Joe <Thank you for asking Joe. The most popular member of
the family, Grammistes sexlineatus, does indeed exude a protective
slime that is toxic, mainly to fishes (potentially predatory types
it's assumed), but generally is not a concern for a well-managed
system of size and a suitably small specimen. The only situations
I've seen that were trouble were too-small systems, harassed
specimens and or dead ones, that in dissolving, polluted the tank.
Grammistids in general are too shy to be kept in any but huge systems
with the likes of Triggerfishes. I wouldn't encourage you to mix
them. Bob Fenner> |
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