Re: Velvet Treatment  8/6/07
Mr Fenner
Thank you for responding on a Sunday. So copper is of no use for velvet?
<Generally not... you did not read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
and the linked files above>
That contradicts everything I have read beyond your site.
<Ah, not all that is known...>
From what I have read on your site I will be best off just with freshwater dips twice a day with methylene blue and put fish in a parasite free setting for 15 days before adding to tank.
<...>
I will leave tank vacant for 30 days with a UV going. Is this a good course and the only course. Im not second guessing but peteducation.com says copper is the only treatment. Another says formalin 3. Another says there is no cure. It is so easy to get lost in this. Thanks for all your input. Rick
<Have just skipped down. Please, read the above citation. RMF>

Re: Velvet Treatment  8/6/07
<...>
Not sure what this means? Thanks
<Indicative of ennui, dissatisfaction, amazement...>

Re: Velvet Treatment  8/6/07
Mr Fenner
Please read this on the link you wrote for me to read here is the treatment that it says---Formalin exposure (100-200 mg/l aka ppm.) for 6-9 hours will result in the shedding of trophonts... but unless some efficacious treatment is continued these will later develop dinospores and re-infest the fish-hosts. Re-examination of hosts is required... Then on the dip link you told me to read it contradicts-
4) Formalin and formalin/malachite solutions are probably too dangerous and may well be disallowed by law in your area, they are in California. These cross-link peptides indiscriminately, destroying any and all proteins they come in contact with. In a very real sense, you're poisoning the "good guys" as well as the "bad". Hopefully the latter faster than the former.
Due to their narrow range of safety, toxicity to livestock and handler, and legal constraints, I would avoid formalin mixtures for pet-fish applications. Malachite green, zinc-free is no longer even used at most government labs and fish hatcheries.
<From the general to the more specific... I do agree, adhere to both statements>
Now on methylene blue you say on your site-- Most promisingly as a preventative... against fungal and bacterial action on freshwater fish eggs. Though sometimes suggested as a treatment for ich, velvet, Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, other protozoa, monogenetic trematodes... there are far more useful medicines for actual treatment of these pathogens.
<The key words here are "sometimes, suggested"... Not by myself>
You not understanding why Im a little confused by your advice and not seeing the contradictions in your site leaves me <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> <...> ten fold.
<Is it possible to state exactly what one means? I do appreciate the opportunity/challenge to be more clear...>
There is no shame not knowing how to treat this. It seems to me your just writing what others have tried.
<And... many times myself... Most of the times w/o success... Caught too late... not economically justifiable to treat... Returning organisms to the sea (where collected), or destroying all, using a biocide (generally bleach) to start anew...>
A simple answer would have been fine like others members of the WetWebMedia crew do instead of sending them off to wetwebcontradictions to read for hours while there fish are dying. My treatment seems to be working.
<Ah, good>
If I it works no thanks to you I will send you my results and you can post them and then give the link to other people who ask about curing velvet. Your site has grown so big all you need is a simple page with what steps to take to treat things like velvet. But I guess you have to know 1st. But hey your a hell of spell checker. Thank You Rick
<I wish you well, and your fish livestock... I STRONGLY suggest you attempt to compile such articles... that are accurate, significant and useful... With a bit of studying, say on this one pathogenic agent, I am very sure you will come to about the same place I am... in a few decades. BobF>

Amyloodiniumiasis  8/6/07
Hi Bob
<Angela>
I hope you don't mind me contacting you directly, but you have given me such good advice in the past, which I have followed. I have a question about your article about Amyloodiniumiasis entitled " Coral Reef or Velvet Disease, Amyloodiniumiasis, A Virulent Dinoflagellate Disease of Salt Water Fish" on Wet Web Media site.
<Okay>
I have done a lot of reading on the subject, from your book and from the net and also speaking to aquarium workers. I cannot seem to get a grasp on some of the answers that I am given.
<I do hope to be more erudite here>
I used to be a veterinary nurse and so I do understand life cycles and the different stages of parasites, obviously in dogs and cats etc, but not fish. In my understanding, once you have treated an organism for a parasite and eradicated all of its different stages from the body, then it cannot come back unless it comes into contact with the parasite again and becomes re-infected. Is this true of Amyloodinium?
<Yes... rarely is this protozoan/algae resident w/o becoming virulent... unlike many other single-celled pathogens of captive marines>
because the shop workers have told me that:
1. All fish have this parasite and that it becomes infective when the fish becomes immune compromised or stressed.
<This is assuredly NOT so>
2. Even if you treat the asymptomatic fish with dips and baths during quarantine it can still appear later even if you do not have the parasite in your tank.
<Again, not so>
3. It doesn't matter how long you quarantine a fish for, it can still carry Amyloodinium and develop it at a later date.
<I disagree... as do other investigators>
4. After successfully treating an outbreak it can still reappear later.
<No... systems can be and remain specific pathogen free... thank goodness>
So am I right in thinking that it is like the human Herpes virus in that once you have been infected you will have it for the rest of your life?
<No... if excluded, eradicated from a system, it is gone>
(Hope that makes sense) They said that nobody knows why this happens and if I find out why then "come back and tell us" was the answer.
The reason for these questions is because I have an infestation. I'm devastated. I have done everything by the book, I.e., quarantine and I only buy fish from the one shop who quarantines for 6 weeks and his fish cost a fortune. I am now treating my fish in a separate tank with copper and 2 have died already. The only thing I can think is that I haven't quarantined my corals, which were from a different shop, for long enough before putting them in the main tank and I didn't subject these to any dips or baths either.
<Yes... the dinospores can be vectored on anything wet. This is a likely possibility>
My question about the article is: At the end where you write "Infected tanks can be cured in one of three ways: 1, 2 and 3" you write in 1 that a tank should be left fallow (without "fish" hosts), I am just making absolutely sure that you mean literally without FISH and to leave in hermits, snails, feather dusters, starfish and corals, along with live rock is ok?
<Correct>
But then, at the end of the whole section you say "None of these is 100% effective in eradicating Amyloodinium from a system." Does this include points 1, 2 and 3? or just the end paragraphs. Does this mean I need to throw everything away and start again???!!
<Unfortunately, this last statement is so... The resting stage/s of this parasite can at times last months w/o fish hosts... The VERY BEST means of control (of Amyloodinium) are exclusion... through careful selection, quarantine, perhaps prophylactic treatment...>
I really hope you don't mind me emailing you directly, but I just cannot seem to find anyone who is 100% sure on what to do.
Angela
Manchester, Britain
(In tears).
<Oh my friend. I am so sorry for your travails... Do consider the "malarial treatment" mentioned in the above reference. Bob Fenner>

Re: Amyloodiniumiasis 8/7/07
Hi Bob
<Angela>
(Trying not to cry). I have lost another 2 fish and 2 more are showing signs.
Thank you for clearing that up for me. If I was to leave my tank fish free for say 6 months do you think that all stages of the parasite will
have died in all my filters and pumps etc?
<Yes... most likely all would be gone in a month... virtually certain of all gone in two or more>
Would it make any difference to have a UV steriliser?
<Not much...>
Again I have been told that I would need in theory 20 foot of UV sterilisation to have any effect on the water borne stage.
Do I have to face the fact that I shouldn't put fish in my tank again?
Angela.
<No... As stated before, I have been party to collection and wholesale settings where for economic expediency all have been dumped, bleached... but in a hobby setting, allowing all to go fallow for a few months should "do it". Bob Fenner>

Re: Amyloodiniumiasis   8/8/07
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It is so good to get a straight answer from someone who knows what they are talking about.
I will be thoroughly researching quarantining of corals for the next few months on wet web and your book. Just wish I could have saved my little fishes.
Once again thanks.
Angela.
<Welcome! BobF>

Marine Velvet, source/s   5/23/07
Hey folks, I have a question here.  I have been doing this for a long time, had many problems with velvet, but have prevailed in my aquatic endeavors.  I have an established marine aquarium, set up for years.  I looked at my fish today and swear some have velvet.  The thing is, I have not been near a fish store in over 6 months.  All the fish I have in there have been there for at least a year.  I did add some shrimp about 6 months ago.  Could this be?  
<Could>
Could velvet appear out of nowhere?
<Mmm, not out of nowhere, no... but most anything wet could transport/transfer Amyloodinium... even lyophilized/processed brine shrimp nauplii, eggs...>
I just can't believe it... I always have QT, I just don't know what to think!
<Well, let's hope that this is something else... It may be that you're just seeing some light reflecting from the fish's bodies... Bob Fenner>

Amyloodinium ocellatum    5/15/07
Dear Mr Fenner, I’m a graduate student at the Gulf Coast Research Laboratory in Ocean Springs, Mississippi, studying epidemiological aspects of Amyloodinium ocellatum infections. I’ve been looking for an article for a while that you’ve cited in “Coral Reef or Velvet Disease, Amyloodiniumiasis, A Virulent Dinoflagellate Disease of Saltwater Fishes”. The article citation is the following:
  Bower, C. E. 1987. Update on Amyloodinium ocellatum. SeaScope Fall 87 4(4):1-4.
  I’ve tried many libraries and e-mailed other people including Carol Bower, the author, but I haven’t succeeded. I would appreciate receiving a copy of it if you still have it on hand.
  Thank you for your courtesy. Sincerely, Ignacio Masson
<I see Marineland (new owners...) have only archived issues back to 2001 (http://www.marineland.com/news/news_seascope.asp)... >
Ignacio Masson
Graduate Research Assistant, PhD Candidate
The Gulf Coast Research Laboratory
703 E Beach, Ocean Springs, MS 39566
<Have just looked through my collection. I only have the one copy (bound and given to me as a gift), but will copy this piece and mail it to the above. Address. This is not my property, obviously, but am sure Ms. Bower would encourage its dissemination, and that the present owners of A.S. won't mind. Bob Fenner>
 

Oodinium Outbreak   3/22/07 Hello,   Great website, it has been extremely helpful over the last couple of years. I also recently got a copy of CMA and it is wonderful as well. <Lots of good help there, here> I have a bad situation and would like some advice. A maintenance customer of mine has a 210 FOWLR that is in my opinion over stocked and now seems to be consumed with an Oodinium infection (white flaky dandruff like substance all over most of the fish with some cloudy eyes as well). <Yikes... no fun. I was in the service trade for about 19 years...> All fish were quarantined before being put into the tank until last week when the customer called me and said that he was taking home a new Blue Spotted Stingray (which I had told him was a poor choice). <Exceedingly> Since all of the fish had been doing well up till then I would assume that this is where the infection came from. <Mmm, this or most anything wet... including marine foods...> None of the fish have died yet and they are all still eating well. <Mmm, might be Cryptocaryon then instead... Likely Amyloodinium would have wiped out all otherwise by now> But there are a lot of expensive fish that need some help. Would you suggest taking out the live rock and treating with copper or formalin, hyposalinity, just pray? Also would a stingray, zebra eel, or map puffer be ok with copper or any medication? <Mmm... I would treat all as proscribed on WWM... including for these fish/groups... Prayer "helps" only those who "do and believe in it"... Not the physical world> Any help would be greatly appreciated. It has been a very depressing evening, I feel very sorry for the fish that are suffering.      Thanks for your time,   Jeremy <>< <Read on my friend, read on: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Too much to state here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Oodinium Outbreak  3/23/07 Hello again,   Thanks for your quick response. I have been reading over the FAQ's and am still very confused as to what is wrong with the fish. As you stated if it was Oodinium the fish would likely be dead now, or at least have stopped eating. But it still doesn't look like ich to me (or at least what I think ich looks like), of course I could very possibly be wrong about this. <There are actually several possibilities here... some other protozoans, some non-pathogenic...> I have attached a few pics of the Boxfish (Ostracion Meleagris) it looks worse than any of the other and is actually in a different tank now because of that. Again it is a very flaky looking white substance covering the entire body. <This appearance is due to the reaction of the host...> The pics are not real good but maybe they will help. Thanks for your time.   Jeremy <>< <Macroscopically this appears to be Crypt to me... if you intend to be successful in the trade, I would get, learn to/use an inexpensive microscope... and good reference works... For many fish pathologies... my fave (w/in reaching distance) is Edward Noga, "Fish Disease, Diagnosis & Treatment"... Expensive, but worthwhile. Bob Fenner>

Another Angelfish and the Prophylactic Use of Copper ) 3/14/07
Hi guys.
<Leslie in for the guys this evening…>
I have a 120 gallon FOWLR which was nearly "completed" recently.  It has two 3" Regal Tangs, a 3" Yellow Tang, a 3" Coral Beauty, a 4" Purple Tang, a Longnose Hawkfish, a Purple Firefish and a Blackcap Basslet.
<Wow, that’s quite a combination there. I hope you are planning on a much larger tank sometime in the not to distant future.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news but here goes….. your tank is not appropriately stocked. You have 3 more Tangs than the recommended number, which would be one per system unless you have a very large system. 120g would not be considered very large. The Purple firefish belongs in a more docile environment. These fish have a tendency to hide and starve to death when kept with more pugnacious fish.>
I had recently added the "final" addition, a very good looking Bluefaced Angel.  It had been at the LFS for 4 weeks and was eating Mysis shrimp.
<Very good signs!>
I got him and since my quarantine tank was only 10 gallons and he had been looking good at the LFS a added him directly to my tank.
<Woops, a larger quarantine tank would be in order.>
Of course four days later he has velvet and dies two days after that.
<Oh no, so sorry for the loss, but not unusual.>
Naturally a day after he died, the Tangs were showing early signs of velvet too. So I bit the bullet and took out the live rock and cleaner crew.  I treated the whole system with copper and even though the two Blue Tangs went down to the bottom on their sides, everyone recovered.
<Very lucky, indeed.>
So here is my question:  I'd like to replace the Angel with either another Blueface or an Imperator.
<Your tank is really too small for either of those fish. If you have your heart set on one of the large Angelfish you really need a bigger tank. Please do yourself and those fish a favor….get a bigger tank and/or return some of those fish your LFS and re think your stocking plan.>
Since the live rock is out and the water is medicated could I add the fish while the copper is still in as to avoid any ick or velvet breakout
while adding him?
<I wouldn’t. Copper is a not gentle drug. I am not a fan of using prophylactic medication most of the time.>
It's been about three weeks with the copper in the tank.  Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. Francisco J.
<Well those are my thoughts, probably not exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope they help, Leslie>

Attacking Amyloodinium!  - 01/24/2007
Dear Scott,
<Hi there!>
A little background on myself first. I operate my own aquarium maintenance company. So I buy a lot of fish.
<No doubt!>
I've read a lot on the Wet Web Media site. You guys do such a great service for all of us out here.
<Thanks for the kind words!>
I've also recently reread a lot of the articles on fresh water dips. This has saved a lot of fishes lives I can tell you.  
<Glad to hear that!>
I have a tank of fish right now I've had now for a month, recently lost a Yellow tang, upon closer view I noticed a Black and White Heni with what I think is Velvet.
<Uhh-Ohh..>
I have had success fighting ick using just freshwater dips, but I've been reading about Velvet and it seems harder to get rid of. I have the feeling that this is what's in this quarantine tank.  None of the fish are scratching but I was surprised to find the Yellow Tang dead.
<Well, Velvet is such a virulent disease, it doesn't surprise me that you suffered some losses.>
This tank is a 40gallon breeder tank with, a Black and White Heni, Kole Tang, Small Blue Angelfish, Small Regal Tang, Flame Angel, Starry Blenny, and a Neon Goby.  
<Quite a crowd!>
I would probably use Coppersafe on this tank but with the Flame Angel, Blue Angel, and Black and White Heni, I don't want to put copper in with them.
<Agreed that some Centropyge and Tangs have problems with copper for the long term, but I would not be as concerned about the other fishes, myself. If you follow the manufacturer's advice concerning duration and dosage, you should be alright, in my experience.>
In your opinion could I fight of Velvet with just the fresh water dipping every other day? Every Day?
<Honestly, I doubt it. I think that even though freshwater does provide some degree of osmotic shock to the causative protozoa, it's far more effective to use medications for Velvet, IMO. Yep- I like copper...I know the potential drawbacks for some fishes, but it's my personal weapon of choice.>
I have a U.V. light I'll put on the tank tonight but I'm aware it only can kill parasites in the water column.
<Correct. U/V is valuable, though.>
Any suggestions would be great appreciated,   
Jim Jesko  
<As above- proceed with caution! Sorry for the delay in responding! Regards, Scott F.>

Possibly Marine Velvet?  - 12/12/06
The Flame Angelfish my dad and I purchased just a day ago has a bunch of white spots on it. They're too many of them for it to be ich. I compared it to the picture of Amyloodinium (Spelling?)
<This is it, the correct spelling>
in the Conscientious Marine Aquarist and it looks almost exactly like it. We introduced it into the quarantine tank with the lights off and it didn't have any spots on it. Then today it has tons of little white spots on it. The temperature went up 3 degrees from 75-78 overnight. The water quality should be good since we did a 5 gallon water change It's a 10 gallon tank) right before we put the Flame Angelfish in there with water from our main tank which has perfect water quality according to our 2 test kits. I called my dad and we decided to treat the illness and put in the amount of copper-based medicine that the bottle recommended after removing the carbon from the filter. We will do a freshwater dip when my dad gets home.
<Mmm, really only useful "in transit", moving fishes from one setting to another (non-infested) one>
The Flame Angelfish has about 145-150 gill movements per minute.
<Yikes... way too fast>
Maybe a little bit more. Is this Amyloodinium for sure?
<No... could be Cryptocaryon... other possibilities>
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist says that it's often deadly and needs treatment soon.
<This is so>
The Flame Angelfish doesn't react much to me waving my hand near it
<Another good clue, observation on your part>
and it hangs around the top mostly swimming at an angle. If there's anything else you would like to know, then I'll be glad to supply it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.
<I do hope your fast diagnosis and treatment are useful here. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
and the linked files above to help you solidify your ideas re what this might be, how to proceed... and do keep me/us informed. Bob Fenner>

Amyloodinium   9/26/06
WWM Crew,
<Jeff>
I received two ocellaris clowns via overnight shipping on Friday.
After acclimation to a 20 gallon quarantine tank, I noticed that one of the clowns was breathing heavily and didn't quite have the sheen of the other. It displayed interest in flake food, and would go right up to it and sample it but wouldn't eat it.
<A bit soon...>
Through a magnifying glass, I saw very small white/gray spots on the upper half of its body.
Technically, they were visible to the naked eye, but one would have to get very close to the fish to notice them. I suspected Amyloodinium
<Mmm... I would have just waited...>
and dropped the specific gravity over a few hours from 1.025 SG to 1.011
<Not a good idea with Clowns to drop so much, so fast>
SG following the advice in Wilkerson's Clownfishes.
<We are in disagreement here>
Seeing no improvement the next day (Saturday), I dosed Seachem's Cupramine as suggested (2 mL to bring concentration to 2.5 mg/L). The next day I continued to see no improvement.
<... It may well not be Velvet...>
At this point, the sick clown was spending all its time near the bottom of the tank, with labored breathing,
<Right. Likely just from the "treatment">
listing occasionally to one side or another. The spots may have been slightly better. I do not recall for certain. I again dosed the Cupramine and brought the copper concentration to the recommended concentration of .5 mg/L (confirmed by Seachem Copper test kit). This morning I awoke to find the sick clown heavily dusted. In addition, the healthy clown, which had previously had no sign of infection whatsoever, has begun to taste and spit out its food. It is otherwise active. A few quick questions. First, I understood from a Trevor-Jones article that copper kills Amyloodinium in the free-swimming dinospore phase. If this is so, does my seeing additional trophonts today suggest that the copper concentration isn't sufficiently high?
<Mmm, possibly... need to maintain a physiological dose/concentration at all times>
(presumably, today's trophonts were free-swimming dinospores last night when the Cupramine copper concentration was at .5 mg/L).
<Yes>
Second, is there something else I should be doing? Should I leave the water's specific gravity at 1.011 or begin to increase it over time?
Thank you very much.
-Jeff
<I would... contact the shipper re this incident... all other clowns they have, have shipped are likely afflicted. And I would consider an immersion bath/dip in a volume of similar spg water and formalin... then movement to all new water (to cut the life cycle...). Bob Fenner>

Re: Amyloodinium, SW   9/26/06
Thanks for the reply. I'd like to clarify one point you made. After the formalin dip, you recommended moving the fish to new water. Should I maintain the copper concentration in this new water or stop the treatment altogether for the time being? Thanks.
<I would maintain the chelated copper level/use. BobF>

-Velvet? Nope Tis Pods-   9/4/06
<Justin with you tonight, who is up WAYYYYYY to late for his liking :) >
Greetings! I had a tank infestation of what I strongly believe to be Amyloodinium around 8 weeks ago. I had it about a year before with the unquarantined introduction of a Coral Beauty, and thought I conquered it but nevertheless it came back.  Lesson learned, always quarantine and keep water quality high! As far as treatment goes, too little too late. Two damsels survived, but all the other fish were too far gone. The damsels are in a quarantine tank that I treated with copper. I also gave them a freshwater dip with Meth Blue before going in and they seem to be doing well.
<Do be careful with the copper, don't use tank on scaleless fish and or for q/ting corals or inverts now.  best to mark and set aside as coppered.>
Rather than dosing the FO show tank with copper I chose to just let it go fallow for six weeks or so and theoretically get rid of or severely weaken the Amyloodinium, eh?  However, on the eighth week I am still noticing small white specks on the glass; about half are stationary and half seem to be moving. They are about the same size as a grain of sugar, looking very much like what infected the fish. They are all about the same size. I can scrape them from the glass and they will reappear a day or so later, with various amounts (sometimes only a few, sometimes they're all over the glass).   They are barely visible to the naked eye, but I can still absolutely tell that some of the specks are moving about. Patience is a virtue, yes, but I'm getting a little eager to get the tank going again at this point ^.^
<Those aren't Velvet cysts, but amphipods, copepods, etc, beneficial micro fauna, the bottom of the food chain.>
Would I be correct in assuming they are Amyloodinium tomonts, trophonts, etc? I realize it's kind of a wild shot, asking this through an email, and I suppose without a photo or sample that identification would be difficult. However, is it possible for Amyloodinium or some other  parasite to last this long (almost 8 weeks) in a fallow tank? Could they continue their life cycle without a fish host? The only things I left in the tank were 4 Blue-legged hermits (still going strong) and a clump of some sort of algae. Is it possible they can continue their life cycle with the crabs or algae but not become a problem?  
A week ago I added 35lbs of Lalo live rock (very very nice, from Drs. Foster and Smith). My only hope is that a tank sterilization is not necessary, since I really don't have money to just replace the live rock.  I figured I'd have to wait another month or so anyways to let the rock cure. Any invincible parasites ring a bell? Any experience with this sort of problem? Perhaps these specks are not Amyloodinium, but some benign thing that is always around. Never noticed it on the glass before though.....
On a good note, I have a new Rubbermaid sump that's working very well, and 475gph though the 75gal tank. New heater, Poly Filters, life is good. The Euro-Reef skimmer works like a charm, and with no clearance necessary to remove the skimmer cup it is absolutely a great product. Thank you for the recommendation on that, and thank you for your help. You guys (and gals?) do a great job with the site and it's a great resource I'm glad to have. I probably would not still be in the hobby if it weren't for the huge amount of info on here.
Thanks Again,
Bryan, PA
<New rock you added as well as the old rock being fishless has allowed the copepod population to grow and is definately a sign of a healthy tank.  At this point slowly adding fish over the next few weeks would be fine, but do go slower to allow the biofilter to catch up with each addition.  Q/t the new ones so you don't have to do all this again.  Good luck with your tank.>
<Justin>

- Velvet issue, 6/25/06 -
Hi crew,
<The crew says hi.>
First off, thank you for all the time and effort that you put into the website and your books. In a year and a half I've gone from complete newbie reefkeeper to having a solid understanding and respect for the hobby using WWM as my main source of info. This is my first time writing in, and the first time that I'm faced with an issue that I can't resolve using your wonderful archives. I apologize in advance for the length of this email but there are a lot of variables here that may have played a role in the situation.
Here goes.. I've had my 72 gallon reef up and running for about a year now with really no problems. Last week I decided that I wanted to add another 20 lbs of LR in addition to the existing 50 lbs that's been in there since the start. So I took a ride over to the LFS, which happens to be a very reputable shop, and they told me that they had their LR curing for about two months and that it should be fine to place it right in my display tank (since I was going to keep it submerged during the ride home and the store was only 15 minutes away from my place). So the rock went in, and I went away for the weekend, only to come back to an elevated pH (ph meter read 8.6, up from the normal 8.35 at that time of night) and white spots on my purple tang. I immediately checked the water parameters and found zero ammonia, nitrates or nitrites. The next morning, I set up my 15 gallon QT tank and filled it halfway with new SW. I did a 20 gallon water change on the display tank and used some of that water to fill up the rest of the QT. I then drove back to the store and explained the situation to them. They recommended a treatment for the tang called Oodinex, (not the same as Oodin ex) made by the German company Wiegandt. They said that what I was describing to them sounded like Oodinium and not ich, but I'm not really sure because I can't for the life of me find any good pictures of Oodinium to compare with the pictures of fish infected with ich. <The best way to tell is simply this - if ich looks like the fish has been salted - well defined white dots roughly the size of a grain of salt. Oodinium is still white dots but many more of them and much, much smaller - the dots are so small in fact that they are hard to discern - often best seen by looking at the fish in profile, down the length of the fish from the front or back. There are usually so many of these dots that they give the fish a velvety sheen - hence the name, velvet disease. I'm not convinced this is your problem, and I'll explain why in a bit.> Either way, the treatment contains 2,550 ppm Copper so I'm guessing it should suffice if it is ich. So the tang has been in QT for 2 days and hasn't really moved from the corner or eaten. It's breathing heavy and its color has faded except for a stripe that extends from the head to the tailfin. Having researched the disease on WWM, the consensus seems to be that copper isn't exactly effective against velvet, and fresh water dips with methylene blue may be in order. However, I am hesitant to dip the fish in its current condition. I feel that any more stress on it will probably kill it. Would you agree? <Yes... stress piled on stress.> Also, should I be doing small water changes on the QT daily while trying to keep the medication level at its recommended dosage? <I would skip water changes until there is detectable ammonia/nitrite, and then as you mention - replacing medication for the amount of water replaced.> I'm left wondering what it was about the rock that caused the sudden affliction. If there was no die-off, and ich and velvet are only transmittable from fish to fish, what could it have been? <Theories coming soon to an email near you.> The tank that the store kept the rock in was fish-free.
Now to complicate matters, the other fish in the tank are two ocellaris clowns, which are showing no signs of the disease, and a bicolor blenny which now has 3 - 4 white spots on its head, won't eat, keeps trying to bite its own tail and generally appears to be very agitated. Since copper is extremely toxic for blennies, I'm guessing that I have to set up another QT and just do the fresh water/methylene blue dips? <If that's how you're going to approach this problem, then yes a second quarantine would help.> How many times can I/should I dip it if this is the case? <I try to stick with every other day... every day can be a little too stressful.> I plan on keeping the tang and blenny in QT for 4 weeks if they survive. If the clownfish aren't susceptible to the parasite, would it be ok to keep them in the display tank, going with the idea that having them in there is the same as not providing the parasite with any fish hosts for a month? <Well... if this is actually a parasitic outbreak, then no, you wouldn't want to keep any fish in the main tank and allow it to go fallow. Having any fish that "could" host the parasite means they eventually will.> Two QT tanks I can handle, but three would be really rough (it's a small apartment!). If I do need to QT the clowns, can I/should I put them into the same tank with the tang and copper now, or do I wait until after the 10-14 day treatment, remove the medication with carbon and then QT them for a month, allowing the display tank to clear of the parasites? Sorry, I know that was a lot of questions, but this situation has my head spinning (as I'm sure yours is now :-)) . <Actually, my head was spinning before I read this email but for very different reasons.>
Thanks in advance for any help on this matter!
Matt
<Matt, it's always difficult to know with absolute certainty what is going on in situations like this, so all we hobbyists can do is our best to observe the symptoms and do what we can to keep our fish going. A couple of thoughts are rattling in my spinning head. First, I don't think this is Oodinium/velvet and I'll tell you why: Oodinium is simply too virulent. Most times when you finally decide this is actually the problem your fish has, they die - the parasite moves much too quickly, and very often had a head start in the gills where you didn't see it in time. Likewise, it spreads with similar speed so almost everyone would show some sign at this point, not just a dot or three on the blenny for instance. What is more likely is that this is ich caused by stress and not brought in on the live rock per se. Here's the skinny: I'm sure you know, live rock is quite porous, and if you brought it home wet, then you introduced a decent quantity of water from the LFS rock tank into your own tank along with the rock. Because saltwater fish drink their water, they would encounter any differences pretty quickly and may or may not stress out because of it. So, even small differences in say alkalinity would be enough to cause stress in some fish - tangs seem to be one of the most susceptible to these kinds of changes (sometimes even just water changes). So... I'd leave everyone else be for the moment. I'd keep a good eye on the tang and make sure it has some stuff to interact with in the quarantine tank - PVC fittings, etc. - places to hide. Keep an eye on water quality first and foremost, and secondarily on the spots on the fish. If things don't improve in the tang, it will likely not make it through any form of chemical treatment so I'd just leave it be for the moment - if you want, try the freshwater dips every other day if it seems that the spots are not going away, but I'd concentrate on reducing stress in this fish more than anything else. In the future, put any wet rock through a series of rinses in your own water before introducing the rock to your main tank, or better yet cure for an extra week at home before adding.
Cheers, J -- >

Marine Velvet:   6/8/06
I introduced this to my system due to poor quarantine practices.  I know my fault, stupid.  I knew about it and well this is obviously what it has to take in order for me to change my practices.  But I have taken all of the fish out of my tank, quarantined them, treating with copper and freshwater dips for as long as it takes my main tank to cycle out the parasite.
My question is can my snails, shrimp, starfish, corals, and anemone safely sit in the tank while the tank is in this cycling process?
<Yes, and they are not "carriers">
I looked through all of the forums and failed to find any information on what to do with the corals and anemone.  Thanks.
Jonathan aka Stupid Idiot
<Don't be so hard on yourself Jonathan... You have gained/learned by this experience. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Time For Another Round of Treatment?    5/4/06
Hello!
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I have had several fish in quarantine now for five weeks. I diagnosed them as having Amyloodinium, based on the appearance and behavior of the fish-- pinhead sized white spots and scratching on everything in sight.
<Could also be good old-fashioned Cryptocaryon, in the absence of other symptoms, such as difficulty breathing, sloughing of mucus, etc. Amyloodinium kills very rapidly. Regardless, the medical approach is similar for both illnesses.>
They have been treated with Cupramine (Seachem's answer to copper's down sides) for  better than three weeks at the recommended concentration. The problem I'm having is that as I observe the fish to make sure the parasites are gone, I continue to see some of the fish scratching on the rocks and sand. There are no other signs of parasites and haven't been for these last three weeks.
<Ahh.. minor criticism here. I would highly recommend NOT using a substrate in a "hospital" tank. In addition to "sucking up" medications (making it tough to maintain a proper therapeutic dose), substrates provide refuge for the causative protozoa to anchor in during their free-swimming stage. This is a bit over-simplified, but you get the idea. Next time, go completely bare bottom in a treatment tank.>
Everyone is apparently healthy except for the scratching. Do you have any ideas as to what's happening here. I'm hesitant to put fish back in the display tank. Thanks!
Scott
<I agree, Scott. At this point, I'd back off on the treatment for a while, as continuous exposure to meds can be tough on the fishes. After about a week off meds, I'd consider embarking on another round of treatment if symptoms persist. Regular water changes will ensure a healthy environment, and frequent feeding will help the fishes maintain the energy they need to get better. Continue close observation, and monitor dosage carefully. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Quandary with Oodinium infection - 2/28/2006
Hello WWM crew!  I really love the site and have learned an enormous amount from the posts. but I didn't learn it fast enough to prevent the predicament I'm in:
<Mmmm>
I've had an outbreak of Oodinium on my 150 marine FOWLR tank for the last week.  It has already finished off my three Butterflies and I have since
created a hospital tank (20gal) and have my Rabbit fish isolated in it treating with Cupramine.  I've still got a 6in hippo tang, a smaller yellow tang and a 4 inch Naso in the main tank.
<All have to be treated...>
  The Hippo is looking pretty bad and I can tell the yellow is starting to be infected.
<All are infected... as well as the system itself>
I'm really worried that I'll lose the tangs if I don't quarantine and treat but I've only got the one 20 gal hospital that has been running for 3 days and I don't think I can fit all 4 fish in it.  Should I (1) let the three tangs fight the infection and hope they survive (I have 2 cleaner shrimp in the tank working
overtime.) at this point all are eating pretty well)  And if they don't let the tank go fallow to let the organisms die and start over....or (2) make a
makeshift hospital out of a Rubbermaid container and buy another cheap filter and heater and hope I can cycle fast enough to not kill the fish from
ammonia and then treat with Cupramine.....and let the tank fallow for a month.  I'm not sure the tangs would survive either way.....any thoughts or
advice would be greatly appreciated!
<I'd opt for the second approach if you ever intend to introduce other fish life here>
Which do you think is the lesser of two evils?  I'm really sick as this tank was going along great till I put in a maroon clown from my LFS without quarantine (duh! Never again even from my LFS its 30 days of isolation from now on!) My LFS says a Rubbermaid tub won't work as an isolation because the plastic is too porous and will absorb
the copper and the other stuff in the water and get nasty?
<Mmm, no... needs to be tested/measured daily, likely re-applied... Water changed to dilute wastes>
How long would on expect the Cupramine to start working on the rabbit fish. I've dosed it twice on startup like the bottle says and am checking copper
levels and they are about .5mg/L.
<... too much. See WWM re... 0.35 mg/l or ppm tops>
Rabbit was darting around the tank like he was insane. Is that normal too? (he's been in full dose of Cupramine about 24 hours?
Sorry for the dumb questions.. just looking for some advice.. realizing that it may be too late anyways..
Thanks
George W
<Much to consider, and a need for immediate action. Bob Fenner>

Re: quandary with Oodinium infection    3/2/06
Thanks so much for you quick reply...... I'm taking your advice and creating a temp 30gal hospital tank right now.  Couple of quick follow ups if you would mind too terribly....I've got the SeaChem copper test kit but I have a hard time telling the shades of blue apart...any suggestions on a easier to read kit?
<I would look to the Hach and LaMotte companies here>
My ammonia is about 1ppm right now in my 20 gallon hospital...what is the level of ammonia that would require me to start water changes.  
<Posted... I would keep this under 1.0 ppm>
If I have to do daily water changes to keep the toxins in check, can I introduce new water for the changes or must I use tank water?
<The latter is best/better... if not infested of course>
I really appreciate your help.....were all very fortunate to have dedicated knowledgeable folks like you to give us guidance while we learn the ropes....
George W
<I do wish the ding dang trade would adopt a prophylactic pH adjusted FW dipping policy... most all the Amyloodinium and Cryptocaryon problems would/could/should be avoided thus. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet, HELP!  - 02/16/2006
Hi there,
<Hello>
My tank seems to be invested
<Cash it in!>
with Marine Velvet and I have lost 4 fish in the past 3 weeks to this bugger.
My tank is a 155g and I suspect the disease came from a fish (sweetlips) that I got from my LFS.  
<Not a hardy animal, genus... and not quarantined...>
I did not QT the fish (my mistake) and he died about 2 & ½ weeks later, with a noticeable spot on his side.  Since then, my Half-Moon
Angel (had for 8 months prior), Tomato Clown (8 years prior), Anthias (5 months prior) and Royal Gramma (2 months prior) have all died of what I
believe is marine velvet.  I also have 4 Yellow Tangs who have since contracted it as well.  After my Gramma died, I rushed out to by a 10g QT
tank for my angel & clown.  I threw them in there and started treating with Maracyn & Maracyn Plus.
<? Not useful here>
  My clown died 3 days later (I was doing daily wc's to the QT tank of about 2-3 gallons, using the saltwater from my main tank
<-- is that good or should I have just made fresh SW?),
<... you should have read on WWM, and should now>
and then I threw my Anthias in with the angel and he died 2 days later as well.  
<Too little, too late>
All this time the angel seemed to be doing well.   After that, my Gramma died in the tank and my starfish ate him (less cleaning for me =)...) and then I went out and bought a 20g QT for my Tangs.
<Better>
I have since put my tangs in there (about 3 days ago) and have been treating only with copper, then my Angel died last night (very sad, she was a beautiful & expensive fish).  
Now I'm at a loss as to what to do.  My main tank has 9 Nassarius Snails, 7 or so Blue-legged hermit crabs, 1 Atlantic Hermit Crab (about 3"), 2 Skunk
Shrimps, and 1 Bali Starfish.  The inverts seem to be doing fine, but how can I rid the velvet from my tank?
<...>
I did a 60g wc about 4 days ago and since then, I've done 3 small, 10g changes in hopes to rid the system of it.
<? No>
I read some articles on WWM about treating velvet and they recommended that I either crank up the heat to about 95 degrees (which would kill all my
inverts), drain the tank completely and let it dry (I have no other tank available to put my inverts), or use the bleach method and rinse with
freshwater (which again, would prob. kill my inverts).  So what do I do?  
<I'd leave all be... sans fishes, hosts... for a couple months...>
I have no LR, just 120lbs of LS and fake coral.  I have a 50g wet/dry filter/sump with a Red Sea Berlin Protein Skimmer and 2 overflow boxes with
pre-filters (I know, I hate undrilled tanks!) so I think I'm ok with my equipment (I've got a Turbo Twist 36w on back order from Fosters & Smith).
ANY, and I mean ANY help you can give me on this would be greatly appreciated.  I feel really bad that I've lost so many fish in such little time.
Thanks in advance for the help and thanks for having such a great website.
Bob
<Spend the fallow months reading... on WWM, elsewhere. Spiff up your new quarantine systems, make a new stocking plan... Bob Fenner>

Velvet pix?   2/3/06
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner,
Interzoo, Odessa is online.
We have read Marine Velvet 3 FAQ and found the letter of Steven, regarding light microscopic images of Amyloodinium.
We also need for quality light microscope images for the adequate diagnostics. We will be grateful if you will notice us about any finding and we will try also help you in the booking.
Thank you at advance,
Interzoo crew.       
<Mmm, am not following you here. Will cc Steven to see if he can help. Bob Fenner>

Breaking The Life Cycle of Amyloodinium    1/19/06
Just a quick question, can Velvet disease stay  dormant hiding in a fish without killing it? I had an outbreak and I  have one fish left and it seems healthy. Its been over 2 months now and  I want to make sure that its safe to put fish in with it in the  future.
<I suppose that it is possible. The causative organisms do require a host to complete their life cycle, but they do go into a phase where they detach from the host fishes and attach to substrate in the form of a cyst. It may be possible for some of these organisms to emerge at a later time to wreak havoc. I would highly recommend "fallowing" the tank (removing all of the fishes) to completely deprive the causative protozoa (Amyloodinium) of their hosts for about a month. There is no guarantee- but this is an effective technique. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Velvet disease   1/14/06
Good evening,
<Afternoon here now>
I have a 2 part question. First, I lost a blue tang to velvet disease (I know should've quarantined him) but I had placed him in the tank and I am
scared he might have passed it along to anything else in there.
<If this is what it was, the system has it>
Now all I have left is an eel, 2 serpent starfish, crabs, and some snails. Now are eels capable of getting the disease?
<Not as easily as "higher" fishes, but yes... Otherwise can act as reservoir hosts...>
I don't plan on putting anything else in the tank for a while. Now can I just wait it out and put new fish after 2 months or so, or is there a possibility that if I do that something in the tank might still give it to whatever I put in it?
<Yes>
Hoping you can guide me to see what is the best possible plan in order to have a healthy tank. Thank you in advance, Armando
<... to be safe, the eel should be moved, treated elsewhere, the main tank left free of fish hosts for a month or more. Bob Fenner>

Marine Velvet?  - 01/09/2006
Hi,
<Hello>
First off I would like to say thank you for the wonderful service all of you provide.  My question concerns the possibility of a marine
velvet outbreak in my tank.  I have never seen a fish with marine velvet in person and I was not able to find a clear picture of it on
the net, so diagnosing it has not happened yet.  I have two fish in my tank a four stripe damsel, and one yellow tang.  Two days a go I
noticed a very small white spot on the tail of the damsel, but it was gone within a few hours.
<Not velvet/Amyloodinium>
I know the life cycle of this parasite involves itself attaching itself to the fish, and then falling off, but I thought the odds of my catching it in the falling off stage in just the few hours I knew about it were low so I just put it into the
back of my mind.  The next day everything seemed fine.  However, today there are two more very small white spots on the damsels tail again.  
<Perhaps crypt/ich>
So far these spots have been isolated to the damsel's tail only.  
<Maybe not>
This is the only symptom, there is no scratching heavy breathing or any other behavior deviating from normal.
<And not on other fishes? This is something non-pathogenic>
The only thing that leads me to believe it is velvet, not ich is the very small size of the white spots.  From everything I have read velvet deteriorates the fish very quickly,
<Usually, yes>
and I have seen nothing of the sort yet.  This fish has had a history of changing its colors (Ex. large white spots, turning almost
entirely black, and turning almost entirely white) due to stress,
<Important clue>
or for no apparent reason I can think of, but I have seen nothing like this recently.  The tang may be infected, but I see no symptoms, white
spots on a yellow fish may be hard to see.  I have set up a QT tank for the damsel and I am about to set a 55 gallon QT for the tang.  If
this is velvet at least I caught it early.  I know this is a lot, and I don't think I actually asked a direct question, but please give me
some feedback or ideas on what could help my situation.  I really appreciate the service all of you provide.
Thank you,
Aron
<I would look to improving water quality, bolstering immune systems through food supplementation here... not adding medications, isolating the fishes. Bob Fenner>

Velvet I think  12/13/05
I have 1 clownfish, I've had him a year in a 15 gallon nano reef. I think  he has velvet.
<... not after a year... unless it was introduced>
He looks "dusty" I am afraid I caused this by neglecting a water   change for over a week. (I had company) What can I do? I do have corals in
the  tank. Just some mushrooms, Ricordea and a leather. Some crabs and snails. I hope  there is something I can use, he really is my pet.
Thanks
Debra Jansen
<Best to check, improve water quality... Bob Fenner>

Re: Velvet I think  12/13/05
Bob
Are you saying he can't come down with that unless I've added  something to introduce it?
<Yes>
If it isn't that than what?
<Likely "just" body secretions...>
What about marine Ick.
<This also very rarely "rests" for such long periods w/o expressing itself>
I  know what freshwater Ick looks like.
<FW ich does have long "resting stages">
I think I've seen marine ick also ( just  like freshwater) He is eating and seems O.K. other than the dusty look. I  haven't added
anything to the tank in 6 months. Should I just do 2-3 gallon  water changes every couple days for a week or so for water quality?
Thanks for your fast reply.
Debra Jansen
<Yes to the water changes. Bob Fenner>

Can freshwater dips with velvet clog gills? Plus, disappearing copper  11/9/05
I have been battling velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) in my tank for over three months. You'd think I was an idiot, but I'm pretty much an expert on the parasite by now (I even helped the not-so-expert local PetSmart to identify and rid their system of velvet). I have spent days reading up on your site over the last few months, which has been helpful, despite my lack of success. I rid PM's 250g tank of velvet, however, I am not having the same luck with my 72. To make a long story short, I lost almost all my fish in two days the first time around,
<Can be very virulent>
so the tank went fallow for two months and the surviving fish in a QT (with no outbreaks over those two months at all). Upon my re-introduction of a yellow tang, it died overnight from velvet once more. How does velvet survive in a fallow tank for two months? 
<On "slime" detritus... a good idea to clean out, lower spg, raise temp...>
So the 72g was stripped down, all corals were put in a 30g (which are doing great), and the rock in a tub. I sucked up the 5" DSB, scrubbed the tank dry, and after a 100% water change, the 72g has a 3/4 in sandbed (not live) and is treated with Cupramine (but still has live rock - it's expensive and I didn't want to let it go).
<... Cupramine and carbonaceous materials together? Not for long... the carbonate in the substrate and LR will absorb the copper in short order...>
Corals will stay in the 30g for 10 weeks so the parasite dies out. The 72g will be treated for a month and the copper
will be sucked out if the remaining rock for a month with CupriSorb. 
<Uhh, not likely>
Sounded like a good plan, but then it got messy.
<I'll bet...>
1. I can't get copper to show up in my tank. I've added three times the max dosage of Cupramine (should be 1.5 ppm by now) over the last week and I am still getting a 0 reading on Seachem's copper test. 
<Is all gone... absorbed>
Seems the copper or the test would be bad, but both seemed to work for Pet's Mart's tank. Everything in my tank should be dead - even fish, but NOTHING is dying. I think the test is right - the one mushroom coral left is thriving,
so there can't be much copper. The velvet is thriving too. I think my current fish have fought it off enough that they are immune, but new fish I'm trying to QT have it now (I thought treating new fish would be good, to make sure they didn't have anything from the LFS. now I know that was a very bad idea. please forgive my bad judgment!).
<Mmm, not a bad call, just a poor choice of means of execution>
I know rock and sand can absorb copper, but can they absorb that much? 
<Oh yes... and much more>
If so, is it going to release all that at once and wipe out my tank? 
<Could, but unlikely to do so... but enough can/could be released to damage other than fishes.>
What should I do? I have PVC pipe for them to hide in if I need to trash the rock, but I hate to lose that much LR. it's expensive.
<... I would sell, trade to someone with fish-only system aspirations>
2. I've tried a freshwater dip on two fish who have both died. I followed protocol to a tee - R/O water pH matched, temp matched, and aerated for one hour. The yellow tang I dipped bled out of his gills (that's what it looked like) immediately, then quit moving, so I put him back in the QT - I'm assuming he was too far gone and the bursting parasites ripped his lungs up. 
<<Hey, mate, fish don't have lungs.  It's the gills they're breathing with.  MH>>
He lived for a few hours but died overnight. Was the dip the wrong thing to do?
<In this case, yes... I would not FW dip fishes for Velvet treatment...>
A new dip bucket was set up for a Coral Beauty which was given to me by Pet's Mart to save. The CB was fine in the freshwater, swimming like nothing was wrong for five minutes. Upon re-introduction 
<... why replace the fish/es in an infested system?>
to the QT, he freaked out, swimming at the top of the water. He died quickly thereafter, and did not sink. I was told that FW dips for velvet can clog their lungs with the dying parasites tissue. Can that happen?
<Yes>
Would trapped air be the cause of his floating?
<Possibly, but doubtful... more likely disorientation, the fish trying to breath>
From experience, I don't want to dip my pink tail trigger (which is the one fish I didn't want to lose - not easy to replace). Is that a bad call? Is there a point where the dip does more damage than good? 
<Yes>
What is that point? 
<Individual cases... how debilitated what species, specimen is...>
Is there anything that can be done once it's showing on their body? 
<Yes...>
He'll probably be gone by morning but I thought I'd ask for next time. Thanks so much for your help and patience.
Rockwell Ryan 
<... Have you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and the Related linked files above?
I would do so (again), and the archived materials on Copper Use... You need to treat these afflicted fishes in a system devoid of carbonaceous material... with daily testing... plenty of aeration, water on hand for change-outs. Bob Fenner> 

Being jocular, carefree, and Amyloodinium 10/13/05
Me again. I sent an email a few days ago regarding an Oodinium outbreak that kept coming back to haunt me (even without hosts in the tank for over 4 months). I washed the tank down with fresh water and let it dry for 3 days before
putting my display water into it. On the third day, I added a Pakistani butterfly. I was too afraid to use bleach to sterilize the tank for future deaths with new fish (in case I didn't get every last bit of bleach). 
<Not hard to rid all... chemically... and necessary. Just drying doesn't often kill all of the parasite>
Was letting it dry for 3 days good enough to kill off the parasite (do they die after being dry and out of water for a while)?
<No>
Should I worry about my new b/f contacting it even with all new water and hosing off/drying tank?
<Will worrying change the future?>
I also let the filter pad and bio wheel dry out for those 3 days and by mistake I put them both back in the tank. Luckily they were only in there for about an hour before I realized. Then I took them out. Please tell me all of this is ok, I need help guys!!!
Thanks so much, Jay
<Trouble my friend. Bob Fenner>