Marine Head and Lateral Line Erosion and Activated Carbon  11/12/08 Hello staff, <<Hello>> After looking around on Google for some answers all I was able to find was some varying opinions at best. <<Mmm… Much opinion here as well>> My tank is FOWLR. I have 3 medium sized fish and 4 small fish in a 75 gal tank. I turn over the water 10x an hour (360 canister, 350 Biowheel) and a hang-on skimmer. Water quality has never been an issue according to local marine stores in St.Paul, MN. <<Hmm…>> I will be upsizing to a tank around 200 gals in the next year or two to accommodate my Koran Angel, Yellow eyed tang, Niger Trigger, Maroon Clown, 6 line wrasse and two yellow tail damsels-so they'll have a larger home soon. <<And the sooner the better… Even just growing up in too small a tank can have deleterious effect>> I feed them what I would say is the best food I can buy. Frozen mysis shrimp, Nori, frozen spirulina cubes, prime reef from ocean nutrition flake food and other frozen food I can't remember. pH is usually above 8.0- I used to have problems keeping it above 8 but the past 9 months it's been 8 or better. Anyway on to the MHLLE the tang and angel have. The tang looks almost identical to the Atlantic tang seen in an article I read (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php). <<Okay>> The angel has almost like a sunken area that is yellow-I know he is going through its color changes but it doesn't look natural. Both fish seem extremely healthy. <<Not unusual>> For a while I thought the angel's problem was from not eating enough angel formula-which he hates. I usually have to skip a tank feeding once a week then the Koran will eat the formula. Does he need to eat it more than once a week? <<Not if it means starving the tank to do so... A better solution in my opinion would be to fortify those foods the Angel will more readily consume with vitamin/HUFA supplement such as Selcon or Selco>> I can't think of anything else it would be although I've only been at this for two years now. <<HLLE is almost always a result of an environmental and/or nutritional issue. Your water quality may well not be as good as you have been led to believe (always best to buy/learn to use your own test kits for monitoring water quality). Another factor may be the size of the system the fish currently occupy>> Does the use of activated carbon have anything to do with this? <<I have heard excessive use might be a contributing factor>> I use it in all three of my cleaning devices-I'd say 4-6 oz of total product. <<This doesn't seem excessive… But perhaps you could try limiting its use to a few days every couple weeks to see if it helps>> Lastly over the course of a month I change out 33% of the water. Thank you for any help or advice you guys can give; you really have an excellent website. <<Try the food supplement/fortifier suggested, as well as providing an iodine/iodate supplement to the system… And get these fishes to a bigger home as soon as possible… I also suggest you get some test kits and at least validate what the stores are telling you about your water chemistry. Regards, EricR>> http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/images/MHLLEAtlanticBlueTang1sm.jpg http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/images/MHLLEAtlanticBlueTang2sm.jpg Marine Head and Lateral Line Erosion and Activated Carbon  11/13/08 Hello again staff, <<EricR here again>> I've forgotten how good your site really is. <<Oh?>> I was going through some of my books last night (Bob's book being one of them) and I'm still confused about if I'm running my tank in a good way. <<How so?>> It appears you guys don't put a lot of stock in activated carbon being bad for the tank so we'll let that one go. <<Usually have more benefits than drawbacks, yes>> I'm also confident that the HLLE going on with my tang and angel are most likely food related. <<Most always the case>> I'm probably a bad parent here not forcing them to eat enough greens and I'll start adding some vitamins and Iodine to their food <<Mmm, to be clear… Vitamins/HUFAs added to the food are fine, but Iodine additions/supplementation should be made to the system water not the fish's food, per the manufacturer's instructions>> -I'm going to make a big push to make sure they're getting the right nutrition. <<Something I neglected to mention before… Do get some Spectrum New Life pelleted food. This excellent fare is palatable and nutritious… And could possibly turn this issue around on its own>> My follow up question is about filtration. I have a Marineland canister filter 360 and Biowheel 350 and also a hang-on Red Sea skimmer. Do you guys think this is good enough for the 3 medium and four small fish I have in a 75? <<Probably so… But that doesn't mean you can't do better, especially concerning the skimmer. The addition of a sump, and a refugium if possible, could also make a big difference here along with providing a place to put that better skimmer>> My tank doesn't have overflows so I'd have to get one of those hang-ons going down to a sump-which I'm not crazy about. <<But maybe for the best. The tank might could be drilled through the back or end panel, but if not, utilizing a �pair� of siphon overflows can mitigate any overflow issues>> I ideally wanted to wait until I bought a new tank in a couple of years. <<Then perhaps you need to consider returning the Angel and Tang to your LFS in exchange for fishes more appropriate to the tank>> The book 'The Conscientious Marine Aquarist' do you consider this book still up to date when talking about sumps and mud? <<Much has changed since Bob originally penned this book, but he also has an updated edition available>> It is a wonderful book I'm just wondering if I need to supplement it with some new research. <<Even Bob will tell you… Yes… Always investigate/use several sources of reference>> I just got your response as I was writing this so I can respond to couple of comments. <<Great>> I have several test kits and everything tests well, I usually bring a sample to the store just to double check myself. <<Ah, okay… Very good…>> I'll purchase the supplements you mentioned. <<Excellent… The Selcon and/or Selco is great stuff>> I also read on your site about using a pellet food called 'New Life Spectrum Marine Fish Formula' one of your writers thought it was wonderful and helped with HILLE <<Ah yes!!! It truly is an amazing product>> -my fish have not taken pellets in the past though-thoughts on this? <<Most do though some won't… Persistence is key…>> At least I can show your response to my wife and leverage getting a larger tank much sooner. <<Lol!>> Thank you so very much for your help-I really appreciate the help. <<It is my pleasure>> It's funny how overwhelming the marine fish hobby can be. <<Preparation/research (to include proper stocking)>> Thanks again and have a great day. <<And to you in kind. Eric Russell>>

hole in head, reading   10/25/08 This is my black and white sweetlips of three years. Just recently he began to show this crevice on his head. I'm just wondering it looks to be parasitic as I don't think it looks to be an HLLE type problem. <Mmm, is symptomatic of HLLE (I take it this is bilateral, on the other side of the head as well), which almost always has a parasitic component... though not the direct cause IMO> My water parameters are all perfect and the fish get an extremely varied meaty diet. This fish eats extremely well and is very active, showing no signs of an illness except for some agitation concerning this problem. As I hope the pictures show, there is a groove in his head with some brownish substance in the wound. Sorry for the large picture size as I had a real hard time getting a good shot of the problem and the large pictures show it best. Thanks in advance for any advice. Greg Fasano <Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/HLLESWCauseF.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: hole in head -10/26/08 I don't know if it would change your opinion, but this is only on one side of the fish's head. <Mmm... such erosive conditions are rarely unilateral... As are my responding to emails with lower case "i"s> Should I just monitor and maintain good nutrition and water quality for now or is there another more proactive approach to take? <Yes... better, more complete filtration period... the use of DSBs, Mud, Macroalgae culture... above all as a measure, high, consistent RedOx potential. BobF>

Naso Tang 007, hlth.   10/14/08 Dear Crew, First off, thank you for a wonderful web-site. I just happen upon it a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoying reading all the vast amount of information. It's very commendable of you to offer such a tremendous service. I do own a copy of CMA. Great book Dr. Fenner! <Mmm, no doctorate, just Bob, please> I'm somewhat of a newbie in that I left the hobby several years ago as time constraints (i.e. 3 children) along with moving to new residence kept me from re-establishing my tank. Anyhow, my reason for writing today is that I am starting up my 300 gal. FOWLR and have made my first fish purchase. One of the fish being a 6" Blonde Naso Tang. This fish was offered at discount through the retailer (F&S) you mention on your web-site frequently. (I wonder if it had been in their tank for long period of time, thus the reason for the discounted price?) <Possibly> I received the fish on Weds. afternoon and by Sat. morning he developed what appears to me to be Lateral Line Disease. I am attaching a picture for your review. <I see> The Naso was placed in quarantine tank 30 gal.(4' x 1' x 1' ) upon receipt on Weds. 10/08. The water in the quarantine tank is being treated each day with Kordon's Prevent Ich per their instructions. <Mmm, won't "treat" HLLE... in fact the ingredients here, the further stress... will drive all the other direction> Water parameters are as follows: spg 1.023, <Mmm, low, but likely better here for gas exchange purposes> ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates <5, temp. 76, ph 8.2. He is currently not accepting food i.e. mysis shrimp, krill dip in vita-chem, red algae w/garlic sheets, flakes, etc. <Stop! I would move this fish (back) into the 300 gallon setting... The etiology/causative mechanism of the syndrome shown won't "spread" as a consequence to other livestock... and otherwise the chance of this fish resolving is very small> He is not actively swimming around tank, occasional stroll and then sits on bottom. <More bad behavior> Today, Monday, he has started gilling. I have been using a power head position right at the water-line to agitate the surface so that there's plenty of air mixing with the water. <Mmm, not for this species... Move it> Could you please confirm my diagnoses and provide any other information on treatment as well as suggestions on what else can be done to save him. I read all that I could find own your web-site with respect HIHLL and seems to me that the general consensus for its cause is related to nutrition and water quality. <Yes, this is so> With that being the case, what could have caused this condition in such a short period of time (3 1/2 days) given the water parameters? <Stress period... as you speculate, just how long has this fish been kept, moved about in sub-par conditions?> Your response most appreciated. <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Angel infection... HLLE... and/or?  – 10/10/08
Hello,
<Hi there>
A friend of mine referred me to you to get help with my new angel. I have posted pics online and described the situation. Could you take a quick look at my thread and let me know what you think?
Here's my thread:
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2788342&posted=1#post2788342
Thanks,
Dave
<Mmm, though other folks discount that there might be similar etiologies for both HLLE and this sort of more random "Hole in the Head"... in what little scope work I've done (most post-mortem), I have observed both Octomita/Hexamita and Spironucleus in and about the damaged areas. There is evidence (good) that the quinine compound Chloroquine (phosphate) is VERY effective re Protozoans... internal and external... through varying/different treatment methods (gel-foods), directly administered to water... Please see the Net, WWM re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/HLLESWCauseF.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Scopas Tang HLLE  7/22/08
Hello,
I have a question about possible hole in head disease in a scopas tang. I can not get a decent picture but I found one on the web that looks really close and have included the link below as well as my tank parameters and stocking list. My tang does not have as many markings around the eye but very similar line under the eye. There is not a hole but it looks as though the color has disappeared in these lines and dots. I have had my tang for about 3 months. I feed him mysis, blood worms, a slurry of: squid, scallops, mysis, pellets, krill, silversides, red and green sheet algae, Cyclop-Eeze. I also have red or green algae on a clip for him every day sometimes every other day. I also clip Chaeto from my fuge sometimes. I soak all food in Selcon and vita-chem and have been before I got the tang. If my fish is sick I do not think it is nutritional. He is in a 72 bow with 20 gal sump. There is a 3 stripe damsel that nipped him at first but now they seem ok, sometimes they shake tails at each other. The spots where the damsel nipped the tangs fins have been totally healed for a while now. Do you think the damsel is stressing the scopas and causing this issue? The damsel recently caused my long nose hawk fish to jump through the egg crate top and die on my carpet, the a hole. The tang is about 4 inches and the damsel is about 3 inches. The tang is active and eats like a pig. I can not find many picks of adult scopas so I do not know if he is changing color or if he is getting the hole in head lateral line disease. If he is getting the disease any suggestions as of what to do . I tried to catch the damsel with a crude trap but all I got was Nassarius snails and hermits.
As always thanks for you thoughtful advice on this.
http://www.marinecenter.com/media/photos/4B9298653B424687ADA59C64C63E37B5G.jpg
thank parameters
72 gal bow front
20 gallon sump with 5 gallon chamber refugium with macroalgae live rock
and sand bed
ph- 8.3
ammonia- 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - under 5 ppm
calcium- around 500
dKH - 10
specific gravity- 1.024
temp - 79/80
live stock
3 stripe damsel
scooter blenny
pink spot goby
scopas tank
some snails and hermits
coral
harry mushrooms
toadstool
fox coral
frog spawn
yellow sea blade
red lobo brain
Favia brain
small zoo polyps on shell
xenia
Kind regards,
Jeff
<Jeff, I would definitely remove the damsel, they can be very annoying to their tank mates and stress them as well. I have seen HLLE occur when everything has been perfect, it is a disease in which the direct cause is unknown. I would continue to feed the tang everything you have been doing (maybe add some vitamin a and c crystals from GNC). I had an Africanus Angelfish that had HLLE and with a couple months of vitamin A and C crystals it has reversed and you can no longer tell it even happened. Good luck with your tang, IanB>

HLLE disease in Hippo, more reading  10/6/08
I've just discovered your website tonight. I've been a member of another saltwater forum for a short time and have asked this question there but I've tried what I was recommended there and so far no results. I have a 75, and I know now that this is too small but for now there is nothing I can do. My home is for sale to get a larger house and until this one sells and we get in the other, I cannot get a bigger tank, but I will be getting a 150 whenever that does happen. I have an Emperor400 and a Marineland330, and two powerheads, and about 125lbs of liverock. I have 3 tangs(I know bad) but I've had them for 5 yrs, almost 4 years, and almost 2 years. My pride and joy, Audrey Hepburn has just shown the first minor sign of HLLE, after my hippo and yellow tang have had it for some time, in fact the hippo has had it for at least 2 years, recently progressing quickly. I love these fish like many people love their cats and dogs and will do the most I can to save them. I've been reading some of the threads about HLLE and saw that you mentioned a bacterial or protozoan "strain".
<Mmmm, Octomita and Spironucleus are/have been "implicated"... but methinks that generally they are "chickens that come after the egg"... Poor water quality, lacking nutrition are the primary drivers of this neuromast destruction syndrome>
I'm wondering if this is likely since all three have it. So far I have changed the diet to Mysis, emerald entree, very little brine, and flakes, with occasional algae sheets. I've been soaking about 2 times a week overnight in garlic, Kent Zoecon, and Zoë Marine. This is not working, in fact I believe the disease has progressed since I've been doing this for the last month and a half. I don't have any LFS in my area or near, just small chains with very little product. I order from Fosters and smith occasionally. I don't know where I can get Sushi Nori, unless the local Japanese steakhouses would sell it to me. If I need a liquid vitamin, which one do I need. I'll try whatever I can, can you please give me some tips, in the order of how I should try them. Thanks so much!
Amanda Jones
<Keep reading on WWM: http://wetwebmedia.com/HLLESWCauseF.htm
and the linked files above... The use of Chloroquine may be of use here... Bob Fenner>

Re: HLLE disease in Hippo  10/6/08
I've read almost all of the info you have posted, q and a. If it was mentioned where Nori could be purchased I must have missed it, and the Chloroquine you mentioned Im not sure what it is. My access to anything that cant be ordered is very limited to non-existent. Thanks again, this situation, although silly, has affected my mood keeping me chronically down and depressed watching something I love die.
<Amanda... please use the search tool on WWM re this quinine cpd... and do order the Chloroquine... online... Do what you can to improve water quality... look into adding a DSB, refugium, macroalgal culture... Try to be content that you're doing what you can to remedy the situation. Cheers, BobF>

Success in curing HLLE 05/30/2008
Hi WWM crew,
<<Good afternoon, Andrew today>>
I have always appreciated the fine work you do for the marine fish/reef keeping community, and keep up the excellent work!
<<Thank you for the kind words, much appreciated>>
This time I have something to offer. Not claiming to be an expert or anything, just one more success story and data point for the common HLLE problem among Surgeonfishes.
<<Ahhh...the best emails to receive, success>>
Some background: I have kept a Hippo Tang for several years, and he has always been healthy, active, and eats a lot. I have always fed him frozen brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, Spirulina pellets and krill pellets. However, due to bad LFS advice, he was stuck in a 37gal system for a while, which is way too small for such an active fish. A year later, he started developing HLLE. He had a small pit developing on both sides of his head, behind the eyes.
<<Such a shame>>
This year, I finally setup a 125g system with a 30g sump, and moved him over. He seems much happier, but the HLLE condition was still there, with no signs of improvement. Granted, it was only a very mild case, since the rest of the head and his body looked absolutely fine, but since this is not normal in wild specimen, I wanted to cure him. Two weeks ago, I started adding sushi Nori to his food. For the first day or two he refused to touch it. But persistence paid off when I shred the Nori in little pieces and mixed it to his favorite frozen mysis/brine shrimp, and he consumed everything with gusto.
<<Superb news>>
A week later, I saw blue color appearing on one side of the pit behind his left eye. It seems like the HLLE is starting to heal. I wish I could take pictures, but he wouldn't stay still for a portrait :-(
<<he he he he.. they never do stay still when you want them too>>
It seems HLLE is a diet related condition, but until he is fully healed, I will keep monitoring his progress for the coming weeks and report any more findings.
<<It is of my personal opinion, that diet is one of THE main contributors to HLLE, so, I agree>>
I thought the Hippo Tang is unique in Surgeonfishes due to it being a planktivore, but I guess having some more greens in his diet wouldn't hurt, and maybe the missing link to the mystery of HLLE.
<<I am really really glad you have been able to rectify the HLLE in the tang, such a beautiful fish, yet seen so often in captivity suffering from HLLE, along with the yellow tang, such a shame for them. I do hope that you email here will be a an invaluable read to others who are experiencing the same issue.>>
Hope this little piece of information is valuable!
Isaac
<<Many thanks for sharing your experience with us, and really glad you perceived to achieve a positive outcome. Kind regards, A Nixon>>

Possible HLLE in Pork Puffer, fins also involved 3/18/08
Hello Bob and Crew!
<Hello>
My VHO lighting crashed about 2 weeks ago.
Since then I've been substituting with two smaller strip-lights and 2 lamps.
I ordered a new ballast after replacing the bulbs and giving up on tinkering.
Anyways, my porcupine puffer has developed what looks like HLLE-The pale forehead, a few pits.
He hasn't eaten in 3 days, and he's been swimming away from me and staying towards the bottom, breathing heavily
<Not good.>
Very unusual for him. Also,  He also has some bits on his fins and tail where it's opaque, with a streak of brown.
I am setting up a QT tank, but I can't get a picture that's any help.
Can this be from the lack of light? Should I treat with an antibiotic?
<Not from lack of light directly, but probably due to lower water quality. What are your water parameters? HLLE is usually environmental and dietary in nature. I would not treat with antibiotics unless you diagnose a bacterial infection. See here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm >
<Chris>

Angel Problem. HLLE On The Way? 3/10/08
In my 6ft tank I have a King Angel that has been with me now for around 9 months, the area around its head and gills has no colour, it's as though the top layer of skin has disappeared. The rest of the fish is ok, and it is accepting food with no problems. In my other 7ft tank I have a Blueface Angel that has been with me around 2 months, this fish has exactly the same problem regarding the colour disappearing around the head area. In both of the tanks I am keeping various other fish and there is no problem with them. I am interested to know if there is some problem with my tanks or the fish I have purchased have some disease.
<Alan, sounds to me like HLLE (Head and lateral line erosion). This is mainly due to environmental conditions and nutrition. It can be reversed by maintaining pristine water quality and a good diet. Read FAQ's here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm, and here, http://wetwebmedia.com/foodsppt1.htm>
Regards
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Alan

Free tank - north of Philadelphia... and HLLE success, Zebrasoma  – 03/10/08
Hi Crew,
<Alison>
I just thought I would send you this. If you feel it is inappropriate please just let me know. I'm moving soon - next week actually. After some very honest thinking I've realised that that best thing for my salt water fish would be to give them to my neighbor since he is a very good and experienced fish person who has similar philosophies. I'm moving from just north of Philadelphia to FL and my Sailfin tang is just too high strung in nature for me to want to risk his well being. Since I will be fishless for a while I thought I'd offer up my hospital tank to someone who may need it. Its a 30 hex that hasn't thankfully been used in two years. The seals may need replacing soon but when last operating it did not leak. They just look worn.
Also I would like to offer up a success story with a milder case of Hole in the Head. The Sailfin had it when I bought him. It continued until I drastically changed my husbandry after researching on your site. Since my main tank is a hex as well I added a deep sand bed, added well cured live rock, and took out the Magnum 350 I had running. I kept my bioload exceptionally low - just the tang, cleaner shrimp, brittle star, a damsel, and originally a pygmy angel (he died I think of old age having come from a tank where he'd been placed as an adult approx 12 yrs prior). I had a power head providing water movement, and an airstone to keep the O2 levels as high as possible. A very low maintenance, simple set up. The tank was dedicated to just the tang even though it was too small for him at just 60 galleons. I thought this was at least better than the 20 long the LFS had him in, and arranged the rock so he had multiple swim patterns. I thought about a second power head but didn't want to add additional vibrations to the tank since he shows great sensitivity to this. I fed him mostly organic Nori from Wegmans and Algae Plus Formula from Olsen Frozen Fish Food in NJ. I choose this brand over others because the ingredients were simple: marine algae, kelp, Spirulina, plankton, clam, krill, gelatin, and mussel. In about 6-9 months later there was no more hole in the head. He still has some marks on his face which I assume to be scars. Otherwise healthy and happy though still a high strung individual. I'll miss him greatly but he's taught me a lot. I know he made it through importation but I can't see putting him through that again since my life is very chaotic right now.
If anyone wants the tank please email me at alisongrieco@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Alison
<Thank you for relating your success with the Zebrasoma, HLLE... many will benefit... And I do hope/trust we will see you back in the hobby once you've settled into your new circumstances. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

HLLE on a hippo 03/09/2008
dear WWM crew, thanks to Andrew for all the help he has given me.
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
I think that my baby hippo tang has HLLE, there is a discolored stripe along his nose from his head to his mouth. I cant tell whether it is a hole or not because he is so active and wont stop swimming. he eats well, I feed frozen mysis in the morning and Spirulina flakes at night. can you tell me what is wrong with my fish and how I can save him. Also should I feed him anything else, today I tried garlic pellets and he loved them. One more thing, do you know how to tell whether it is a boy or a girl. thanks
<<This does sound, potentially, like the start of HLLE. My suggestion would be to start treating the foods with vitamins like Vita-Chem...HLLE is usually caused by either a poor diet or poor water quality. Whichever is the failing entity here needs to be changed. Read more on HLLE FAQ's and linked articles http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm>>
<<**** Note to RMF ***** I am afraid on the sexing of this, I am unsure, however, I hope Bob Fenner picks this reply up and should hopefully chime in from his experience>>
<<Thanks for the questions, hope this helps. A Nixon>> <Paracanthurus, like other Tangs, cannot be discerned sexually, w/o either seeing them in the act, or taking them apart. RMF>