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FAQs on Marine Water Quality involving Nitrites, Troubleshooting/Fixing 

Related Articles: Nitrite, Ammonia, Nitrates, Establishing Cycling, BiofiltrationPhosphate, Silicates, Phosphate

Related FAQs: Nitrites 1Nitrites 2Nitrites 3, & FAQs on Nitrite: Importance, Science, Measure, Sources, Control, Chemical Filtrants, & Nitrates, Ammonia, Phosphate, SilicatesChemical Filtrants

More than about 1.0 ppm NO3? Stop feeding period... look toward means of reducing... water changes, spiffing up filtration, adding bacteria... Not fooling with water chemistry... If need be, removing the livestock.

Stubborn Nitrites... Another case of zip [HPO4]       5/8/17
Hello Crew! Thank you for all of the advice over the years. Your site has been an invaluable resource.
<Ah, good>
I'm having a problem with stubbornly high Nitrites after (during?) a cycle for a quarantine tank and I'm out of ideas.
<Well; quarantine systems tend to be unstable, disallowing establishment and ready metabolism of beneficial microbe populations... Do you have sufficient biomedia, circulation about it to sponsor nitrification?>
QT is 20g, HOB BioWheel filter with bagged carbon and GFO (there was a Phosphate issue from uncured dry rock in the display tank).
<Is there still "some" soluble phosphate present? You NEED some for microbial conversion of Nitrite to Nitrate... Re-read that last statement>
Also has a small skimmer as I intend to follow the mantra "Quarantine everything, corals and all" with this new display tank (150g). QT is bare bottom except for some pieces of pvc for hiding spots and tests at 0 Ammonia, 20 Nitrates, 2 Nitrites, 0 Po4,
<Bingo: Here's at least part of the problem. Remove most/all of the GFO>

480Ca, 9dkh, and 1250mg.
We use water from the display tank for water changes (was an attempt to seed, but also a way of acclimating the critters to heir eventual conditions. Currently the only inhabitants are 3 Scarlet Reef hermits.
Nitrates are coming down (artificially high from early on when the both tanks were showing 100+ Nitrates.... DT now shows zero after water changes and a little impatient Vinegar dosing).
<Won't help>
What is NOT moving however are the Nitrites. They've been floating between 2-3 for weeks. The QT has been running for almost 2 months and they just won't come down. I've tried everything. I've even added SeaChem stability to the area behind the Filter wheel in an effort to directly add <sic, aid?> the bacteria necessary. It just won't come down (but isn't going up either). We are doing water changes, but only @10% weekly. I know that a
bare bottom tank takes longer to cycle, but this just seems absurd. I would have expected a spike and then drop over a longer time. Not a constant 2-3ppm with no movement. The kit is Salifert, brand new, and tests fine at 0ppm on the DT as well. I'm completely out of ideas. Any thoughts? I know Nitrites are not as bad for marine organisms, but I'm not relishing the thought of subjecting a really cool frag to Nitrites just because I can't get this thing to fully cycle.
<Your situation is very commonly misunderstood. "Some" phosphate is absolutely necessary to all life... part of DNA, RNA, Phospholipids in every cell... ADP, ATP energy transfer molecules... AND conversion of NO2 to NO3... The (over) use of chemical filtrants has killed more livestock than pathogenic disease. Remove the rust and you will find your nitrite gone in short order>
Thanks again!!
~Frank
<Glad to help Frank. Bob Fenner>
Re: Stubborn Nitrites        5/17/17

Hi Bob!
<Hey Frank!>
Thanks for the help. Rust is out of the quarantine tank (Still have it in the DT as I believe the dry rock that was uncured is leaching phosphate into that system and I’m showing near perfect water parameters there so not too worried about it … unless you think I should be).
<As long as there is "some" HPO4>
I’m still reading no PO4 in the quarantine a week after removing the GFO and the Nitrites are still up at 4. Nitrates, however, have spiked dramatically. 100 or so was the last reading.
<Yikes; change water... daily>
Tell me if I’m wrong here, but with the spike in Nitrates, I’m thinking that something is definitely converting the Nitrites but the population just isn’t large enough to consume all of it.
<Yes>
The skimmer on the QT is weak but pulling out some gunk (not dark green, but still tan). The only source of ammonia is the 3 hermits plus whatever food they don’t eat. We don’t feed very much at all and ammonia is still at 0. Is this just a “more patience required” issue or am I missing something else?
<Can't tell from the data available>
I am about halfway to throwing a small sponge filter in the sump of the main tank for about two weeks before popping it into the QT in case this doesn’t come down.
<Oh, good idea>
Thought it might help now and in the future. I don’t really think I’m going to attack the Nitrate issue until I’ve dealt with the Nitrites because they’ll just come back.
In answer to your question about bio media/flow, there’s a small Hydor powerhead in the QT and the HOB BioWheel style of filter so I can’t imagine there isn’t enough flow/media. I am still running carbon in the back of that filter but will remove if you think that’s causing an issue.
<If it's old... more than a few days... I'd leave it>
We do have a small diatom bloom going on in the QT right now that happened after the GFO was removed. I suppose it’s possible that they’re consuming all of the PO4 and that’s why it’s showing undetectable. Have turned out the lights temporarily to see if starving them leads to an increase in PO4 and a drop in the muddy river look. We had a diatom bloom earlier which I dealt with through water changes and killing the lights, but I assumed that was from using diatom infused water from the DT that was a green/brown soup at the time (crystal clear now).
Not entirely sure all of that was relevant to this problem, but thought more information might help determine the causes/solutions. Thoughts?
<Keep your beer in cool, dark places>
~Frank
<BobF>

Nitrites       9/20/14
Hi Bob!
<Hey Rob>
Here's a question for you.........
I rebuilt my fish room after a fire, and I have five racks of marine tanks, totaling about 3000 gallons.
<A bunch>
I populated the tanks (with a little nitrifying bacteria from Dr. G) in the last six months, and the last rack was populated about two months ago.
<Okay; likely these microbes have been supplanted by others... even originating from the air>
All of my readings are fine (a few nitrates, but that's to be expected).
All of a sudden (not sure how sudden it was), one of my racks (six 80 gallon tanks with two wet/dry filters with bioballs)
<Mmm; am compelled to mention I don't favour these media... given to variations, vagaries of nitrification... I'd pull them>
has a nitrite reading of about 3.0 ppm.
<Yikes.>

The only thing in these six tanks is 8 fire gobies, 1 flame angel, 6 pj cardinals, a passer angel and a few Chromis. Everyone seems
fine and is eating.
<I'd check the test gear...>
My questions are:
1) Why did this happen?
<Loss of nitrifiers? Nitrobacter old name>
2) If I leave it will the nitrites go down on their own?
<Should... but when?>
3) How would you resolve this?
<Feed little, carefully... perhaps move the fishes elsewhere>
Please let me know your thoughts.
Rob
<Done. BobF>
Re: Nitrites       9/20/14

Thanks for the response, as well as your input.
<Welcome>
One more thing, though........If I'm going to keep many of these tanks fully stocked, isn't a biotower the way to go???
<Meh... I'd go with as large as you can refugium and DSBs as you can fit per sub-system tied together>
What type of media would you use??
<This is posted, gone over and over on WWM. Am sorry to be/appear so cranky, but the Net here in Bali is too slow and tenuous for me to look up links for others/you>
Thanks again!
<W. B>
p.s. I did put a piece of potentially phosphate-laden rock in about a week ago, but I can't see how that could be a factor.

losing the war; High NO3; spinning
A few months ago I had asked you about nitrates and keeping them lower. You gave me some suggestions, and I have toured the WWB, RHF's articles, printed out info, keep a log book, and I feel I am losing the war.
I have added an oversized skimmer (RSO 3000), added about 30 lbs of live rock, did more frequent water changes.
I bought a salifert nitrate test kit, and they read today between 80-100.
This is after I did a 60 percent water change 4 days ago.
<Something amiss here... do you have crushed coral w/ muck galore embedded in it? A wet-dry or such?... I'd be looking into adding a very DSB; culturing macroalgae in an RDP sump/refugium; perhaps even using chem. filtrants, the Kalk trick...>
There is no detritus on the sand, as I have find sand, and 20x flow per hour.(VorTech and return pumps)
I am looking at bio pellets, or a denitrator.
<Worth looking at>

However, before I invest the money, and take the risk, (have heard bio pellets nuking tanks), I want to try one last option. I have two overflows on the tank (tank is 155), and each overflow has a sponge on the drain pipe. Each week when I do a water change, I clean each sponge,
<Sponges and similar mech. media may need to be changed out/cleaned daily>

which is loaded detritus. (uneaten shrimp, Nori, krill etc) I am thinking to remove them, to allow nutrients to reach filter sock, and eventually skimmer. Could this be worth a try, or is that not a significant cause.
<VERY worthwhile. B>
** I copy and pasted your reply email, to more easily answer the concerns you had.
You will see (()) around my responses:
Hey Bob,
A few months ago I had asked you about nitrates and keeping them lower. You gave me some suggestions, and I have toured the WWB, RHF's articles, printed out info, keep a log book, and I feel I am losing the war.
I have added an oversized skimmer (RSO 3000), added about 30 lbs of live rock, did more frequent water changes.
I bought a salifert nitrate test kit, and they read today between 80-100.
This is after I did a 60 percent water change 4 days ago.
<Something amiss here... do you have crushed coral w/ muck galore embedded in it? A wet-dry or such?... I'd be looking into adding a very DSB;
culturing macroalgae in an RDP sump/refugium; perhaps even using chem.
filtrants, the Kalk trick...> ((No crushed coral, sugar sized sand. It is 2 inches in some spots, 4-5 inches in other (thanks to VorTech))) ((It was a wet dry with bio balls, but I took them out, and the sump is spotless as far as detritus goes. Sump is just filter sock, skimmer))
There is no detritus on the sand, as I have find sand, and 20x flow per hour.(VorTech and return pumps)
I am looking at bio pellets, or a denitrator.
<Worth looking at>
However, before I invest the money, and take the risk, (have heard bio pellets nuking tanks), I want to try one last option. I have two overflows on the tank (tank is 155), and each overflow has a sponge on the drain losing the war pipe. Each week when I do a water change, I clean each sponge, <Sponges and similar mech. media may need to be changed out/cleaned daily>
which is loaded detritus. (uneaten shrimp, Nori, krill etc) I am thinking to remove them, to allow nutrients to reach filter sock, and eventually skimmer. Could this be worth a try, or is that not a significant cause.
<VERY worthwhile. B> ((I will remove these, just hope the noise from gurgling. The way the glass tops and canopy are mounted, it is not very feasible to clean them every day))
chasing numbers... and now NO2

Hello again,
In my 155 FOWLR, I have been showing a .5 nitrite
<... what?! D>

for a few weeks now. The tank has been running for 15 years, so I consider it established or mature. I have done big water changes, added stability bacteria, and cut down on feeding, still to see .5 nitrite.
It could very well be a false reading, however, I stumbled upon an article Randy Farley, and it stated UV light can cause nitrates to break down into nitrite. Is this true?
<... not appreciably>
Could this be why Im reading .5 nitrite?
And in regards to my last email, what is your true opinion on bio pellets?
<Can be of use; though not a panacea>
I see articles and FAQs on them, but nothing about how you feel they function, and the risks involved. I am afraid if my nitrates are @100 now after a large water change, they will keep reaching for the sky if I don't implement something.
Thanks

Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)<<>>  5/20/11
Hi guys, I started a 10 gallon QT tank and have a hang on power filter with a fiber square that is to hold the biological stuff. I started out by put<ting> the filter in the sump of my 220 gallon cycled tank. After a week I put it back into the QT power filter. I was not around to feed any ammonia to the QT for 6 days and had nitrites off the charts high, like 50ppm.
<Seriously? What do you have in there, an alligator?><<Not possible... summat is off here... Either the test kit is for Nitrate or N2 as NO3... or it's reagents are bad... or... Reality: go try another NO2 kit and/or known sample (distilled) with the present one>>
I started feeding the tank with 3 ppm ammonia each day and in 4 hours the ammonia was non-existent and the nitrites still off the charts.
<How's about scaling things RIGHT back. Give the aquarium a complete water change. Rinse of the biological media in some of that aquarium water. Then, stop with the ammonia -- my guess is you're adding too much -- and instead just add a pinch of flake food: 2-3 flakes 5 mm square would be ample,
i.e., about as much as you'd add for a couple small fishes. Then repeat this daily. Do 20-25% water changes every couple days.>
Three more weeks have gone by feeding ammonia every day
<<How much and in what format? Methinks this system has been, is being poisoned by over addition>> and two 50% water changes from my display tank and yet nitrites still off the charts even right after WC. For the last three days I have done 90% water changes each day and get the nitrites done to 5ppm but it goes right back up into the red zone off the charts. I am using SeaChem's tests and the highest reading is a medium pink but I end up with almost red. I tried feeding triple dose of ammonia
<<Again... w/ what? Industrial/cleaning NH4OH? At what concentration? Try diluting same and reading what you get on your test for ammonia>>
 and its gone in 8 hours but still no nitrates, or none that can be detected because testing is done with the same nitrite test results. the tank has nothing but a airstone in it and that's only been for the last week. Can you tell me what I can do to finish cycling this tank? The water parameters are 80*, 8.3 PH, 11 dKH, Ammonia 0, Nitrite approx. 40-50ppm, Nitrate 0. Its been a little over 4 weeks since starting with filter from my display tank which has Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 1. Thanks Randy
<Do as stated above. You should find after a few days ammonia will rise to about 1-2 mg/l, and then drop down. Nitrite will follow, and both should reach zero within 3-6 weeks depending on the situation, and at that point, you should be able to add a few hardy fish. Allow the tank a good 8-12 weeks to settle in before substantially raising the fish population or adding delicate species such as Neons. Cheers, Neale.>
<<I agree w/ Neale. You need to dilute (through massive water change/s) the current amount of NO2... down to a few ppm... it's otherwise forestalling through poisoning, the useful microbes that allow conversion to NO3. Bob Fenner>>
Re: Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)  5/20/11

The tank never had anything in it, I bought it new, cleaned it and filled it with my display tank water, that's it! . I presumed that the bio filter pad got loaded with bacteria when I had it in my sump and that the high nitrites came from that bacteria dying off due to the fact that I had not fed it any ammonia for 6 days.
<Hmm'¦ no. Dying bacteria at this sort of population size should have minimal impact. In fact, in the absence of ammonia the nitrifying bacteria are more likely to go dormant than to die.>
When I started feeding it I did use food pellets but since that seem to make no change
<It takes a few days for saprotrophic bacteria to start the decay process, i.e., from flake food to ammonia. But it will, must happen.>
I then started using bottled 10% ammonia
<<This is VERY concentrated relative to what aquatic life produces... only takes part of a drop per ten or more gallons to start, sustain nitrification. B>>
 without colors or soaps. Its just yesterday that I put more triple ammonia dose in to try to shock it to make a change and it just ate it up quickly, lol. Thanks, Randy
<I would not be using any sort of household ammonia for now. Unless you know what you're doing, it's easy to produce all sorts of craziness. Almost by definition, a pinch of flake will produce about the same amount of ammonia whether it goes through fish or saprotrophic bacteria. So while it's an old school approach, the flake feeding method of cycling tanks is at least logical and effective. Do also review whether the filter is adequate to the tank, whether you're maintaining filter media appropriately, and whether anything added to the tank or used for cleaning might be killing the bacteria. Cheers, Neale.>
<<It assuredly is>>
Re: More : re: Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)    5/20/11

I just took the whole quarantine tank apart and cleaned it, now it back up and running. No ammonia, no nitrites and the 1ppm nitrate due to the water coming from my display tank. The walls of the glass had a coating of slime all over which turned white when I cleaned the tank with bleach solution and so did the inside of the power filter. I never added any thing but the Ace Hardware Janitorial Strength Ammonia, contains 10% ammonium hydroxide,
<Yes... NH4OH>
meets commercial & institutional specs, no additives, color or soap and it does not foam when shaken. Since the tank is 10 gallons I had been dosing 1ml a day
<!... too high>
which computes to almost 3ppm. I have 3 different testing kits, all Seachem, one is just for nitrites and nitrates and all read the same! BTW, I use RO/DI water. I'm not new to this but this one really bewildered me.
Thanks, Randy
<Am amazed at the 50 ppm NO2... I would do as Neale says, add some source of proteinaceous food (flake, pellet, part of a shrimp... sans cocktail sauce) and naught else. BobF>
Subject: More : re: Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)
Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)<<>>
Hi guys, I started a 10 gallon QT tank and have a hang on power filter with a fiber square that is to hold the biological stuff. I started out by
put<ting> the filter in the sump of my 220 gallon cycled tank. After a week
I put it back into the QT power filter. I was not around to feed any ammonia to the QT for 6 days and had nitrites off the charts high, like 50ppm.
<Seriously? What do you have in there, an alligator?><<Not possible... summat is off here... Either the test kit is for Nitrate or N2 as NO3... or it's reagents are bad... or... Reality: go try another NO2 kit and/or known sample (distilled) with the present one>>
I started feeding the tank with 3 ppm ammonia each day and in 4 hours the ammonia was non-existent and the nitrites still off the charts.
<How's about scaling things RIGHT back. Give the aquarium a complete water change. Rinse of the biological media in some of that aquarium water. Then, stop with the ammonia -- my guess is you're adding too much -- and instead just add a pinch of flake food: 2-3 flakes 5 mm square would be ample, i.e., about as much as you'd add for a couple small fishes. Then repeat this daily. Do 20-25% water changes every couple days.>
Three more weeks have gone by feeding ammonia every day <<How much and in what format? Methinks this system has been, is being poisoned by over addition>> and two 50% water changes from my display tank and yet nitrites still off the charts even right after WC. For the last three days I have done 90% water changes each day and get the nitrites done to 5ppm but it goes right back up into the red zone off the charts. I am using Seachem's tests and the highest reading is a medium pink but I end up with almost red. I tried feeding triple dose of ammonia
<<Again... w/ what? Industrial/cleaning NH4OH? At what concentration? Try diluting same and reading what you get on your test for ammonia>>
and its gone in 8 hours but still no nitrates, or none that can be detected because testing is done with the same nitrite test results. the tank has nothing but a airstone in it and that's only been for the last week. Can you tell me what I can do to finish cycling this tank? The water parameters are 80*, 8.3 PH, 11 dKH, Ammonia 0, Nitrite approx. 40-50ppm, Nitrate 0. Its been a little over 4 weeks since starting with filter from my display tank which has Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 1. Thanks
Randy
<Do as stated above. You should find after a few days ammonia will rise to about 1-2 mg/l, and then drop down. Nitrite will follow, and both should reach zero within 3-6 weeks depending on the situation, and at that point, you should be able to add a few hardy fish. Allow the tank a good 8-12
weeks to settle in before substantially raising the fish population or
adding delicate species such as Neons. Cheers, Neale.>
<<I agree w/ Neale. You need to dilute (through massive water change/s) the current amount of NO2... down to a few ppm... it's otherwise forestalling through poisoning, the useful microbes that allow conversion to NO3. Bob Fenner>>
Re: More Re: Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)    5/21/11
I tend to believe that I must have not cleaned the tank well enough in the beginning or due to the fact that I did no cleaning of the power filter box created this issue. The nitrites were off the charts way before I started using the ammonia and there was no keeping them down. Hopefully I have rectified the issue and just have to cycle again and learn a lesson from it! Thanks Guys!
<Welcome... am (still) wondering what the source of the NO2 would be here... B>
Re: More : re: Extreme nitrites no matter what (RMF?)
Too high?
<... Rand 3 ppm is too high... can/does actually suppress the metabolisms, kill off the desired microbes>
I had gotten results from ammonia tests 15 minutes after dosing the 1ml and it showed 3ppm every time and I thought that was the amount needed.
So does the NH4OH the cause of the slime or is that just something else? I have the uncooked frozen shrimp, so I will just use it, for a ten gallon tank how often should I replace the shrimp? Thanks!
<... please do a bit of searching, reading on WWM, the broader Net... one shrimp, no replacement. B>Nitrite Spike 11/5/10
Hi all
<Hello Jim>
Have just tested nitrites in my 15g quarantine and they are 2ppm.
Naturally a bit shocked as I thought I had cycled the tank.
I have added a Polyfilter to the power filter and have executed a 25% water change. I have a Flame Angel in quarantine and am wondering whether to keep him in the QT now as these figures are worrying. Ammonia is zero by the way.
Should I keep up with the water changes? Next one being 50%? I use only Ro water for all water in my QT and display tanks.
Thoughts please.
<I would first ensure your test kit is accurate by comparing your nitrite readings with your LFS's test kit. Did you test for ammonia? James (Salty Dog)>
Jim
Re Nitrite Spike 11/5/10

Hi James
<Jim>
Yes the nitrite readings are accurate. Tested my main tank and other water...no nitrites. My flame is only in quarantine another 3 weeks. As stated ammonia is zero.
<Tank likely hasn't completed cycling yet.>
Many thanks
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jim
Re Nitrite Spike 11/5/10 - 11/7/10

Yes your right it hasn't stopped cycling. Angel was taking gulps of air from the tank surface (indicative of nitrite poisoning). So I took the step of putting him in the display tank.
Will make sure I leave the QT tank to cycle for my last fish addition.
<OK. James (Salty Dog)>
Jim

Nitrite/nitrate issues 05/31/2008 I am an intermediate-experienced hobbyist with a 54 bowfront corner fish only saltwater aquarium. I have had this current setup for about 3 months now and am having trouble getting the tank properly cycled. I have a Megaflow 1 sump below which water runs thru the prefilter media. then bioballs, then bubble diffusing sponge and back to the aquarium. <<Ok>> The first month was terrible. I did a number of 10 gal. water changes. Now, my ammonia is OK. but I have lingering nitrite and nitrate issues. I am having trouble getting them back to 0. I also have a Prizm protein skimmer that is removing a fair bit of yellowish/brown liquid on a regular basis. <<How did you cycle the tank? I.E what did you use as the ammonia source? Uncured live rock, a raw shrimp/prawn, pure ammonia? Water changes should not be done at all until the cycle has completed, as you need the ammonia in the tank to promote growth of nitrite bacteria>> Current parameters are: pH: 8.2 Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0.50ppm Nitrate: 5.0ppm This has been the situation for about 3-4 weeks now. Just tonight, my local pet store owner said he read something about bioballs not working as well in saltwater setups as they do in freshwater and pond setups. He suggested replacing the bioballs with lava rocks. Do you agree? <<I agree, bio-balls are not good in the marine environment, and I would switch them to "live rock" rubble, not lava rock rubble>> Or will it make that much difference? <<Bio-balls usually go bad because people do not realise they requires maintenance, I.E partial washing et cetera every so often. With live rock rubble, no maintenance is needed. Yes, I believe using live rock, instead of bio-balls, does make a big difference.>> Any other advice? I have tried cutting back on feeding every other day (flakes) to see if that would help. No noticeable difference. I thought sure by adding the protein skimmer a month ago would help. I guess it has with the junk it is removing, but I am just clueless on what to do now to try to get those levels back to zero. <<I would say you have a stalled cycle, and I would suggest you need to start again from the beginning, using a good ammonia source. Please do read more on cycling here and linked articles and FAQ's http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm >> Many thanks for your insight and suggestions. <<Thanks for the questions, hope this helps. A Nixon>> High nitrite and nitrate 4/22/08 I have a 54gal corner marine aquarium, fish only setup. I transferred fish from an old tank to this new setup, which I now know was a mistake since the tank had not properly cycled. <The root of your problem most likely.> All fish died except a yellow tang and a blue damsel. <Honestly, the tank is too small for a tang.> The tank has now been running for a month with a Megaflow sump filter system. I used BioZyme to help start the biological filtration. <Dried bacteria cultures are not worth much in my opinion.> My problem is I cannot get rid of nitrites and nitrates. <Nitrate buildup is a common problem in FO tanks, no deep sand bed or live rock for nitrate reduction so lots of water changes are necessary. Nitrites could be due to the tank still cycling, not enough filter media, or overfeeding. In this case I would guess the tank is still cycling.> Ammonia was high but is now back to zero. All other parameters are in good range except for the nitrite and nitrate. <Sounds like the tank is still cycling.> I have done 2 sets of 15 gallon water changes a week apart. <Needs more, nitrite is very toxic.> I am starting to get some brown algae growing on the sand/glass. <Normal for a new tank.> I am just at my wits-end. I cannot get rid of the nitrates.. What do I need. <Nitrates? Water changes is the only thing to remove them. Nitrites require the proper bacteria to be cultured.> Many thanks., <Welcome> <Chris>

Re: High nitrite and nitrate 4/23/08 Do you think I need a protein skimmer. <I personally would not run a tank without one.> My only problem with doing one in the MegaFlow sump is that I cannot put it before any filtration. Any suggestions? <Best bet is probably a hang-on-tank model, several quality units available in this line.> <Chris>

Mini-nitrite spike? -02/06/08 Hope you can help... I have a 3 month old 55g fish only aquarium, RedSea protein skimmer (wouldn't buy it again), 4" sand bed, large Whisper filter with 1 wrasse, 1 clown, 1 Gramma, 1 blenny, 2 shrimp and 1 starfish. Did the fishless cycle for 2 months, all was well (ammonia=0, nitrites=0, nitrates= <20, ph 8.2, temp 78) and fish have been and still appear fine. Last night I replaced one of my 2 filter cartridges (rinsed in used saltwater as per directions I found on internet) and now my nitrite levels have risen to 0.25 overnight. I did a 25% water change but I'm worried I lost too much bacteria. Am I being paranoid, should I stop feeding for a day, or should I keep doing water changes and hope all returns to normal soon? Can someone please tell me how to properly change the filter media so this doesn't happen again? <?! You should just be able to follow the directions on your filter or maybe ask your LFS how to do this. I wouldn't be able to help you much here without seeing your filter.> I searched the internet for hours to find the method I used but obviously didn't work well enough! Love the site...all advice has worked fabulously so far. <Thanks. I advise you just keep doing water changes until the nitrates go back to normal.> Thanks, Colleen <De nada, Sara M.>

High Ammonia/Nitrite Levels, No Water Changes For One Year!! 1/27/08 Hi guys, thanks for a very informative site! <Thank you Richard.> I've got a tank which had been stable for a year. I'd never done water changes because I thought as it was stable I didn't need to. <Ah, mistake number one.> I now realise the error of my ways! Anyway, I put in a sand sifting starfish to turn over the sand bed (about 1.5inches deep) and I think it released quite a lot of nutrients into the water (not been turned over for best part of a year and was quite black below the surface). The corals became very unhappy, snails plus one shrimp have died - I've removed all those I can find. Ammonia went to 0.25 and nitrite to 0.05. I took the star back to the LFS after reading a bit more about them. put in an extra power head (now approx 30*tank volume per hour - it's a 400L tank with about 70kg live rock, no filter other than skimmer and I use RO water) and did 10-15% water changes every other day for about a week - so changing roughly 50% of the water. I then read that I may have started a mini-cycle and that water changes can slow down the cycle, so I'm now doing 10-15% every week instead! I've also bought some Seachem Stability to boost bacterial filtration. The problem is, the ammonia and nitrite just will not come down!! I'm also feeding the fish less as well. The levels aren't massively high (only the second level on my test kits) but just sit there and have been like that for several weeks, not going up or down. The nitrate is stable at zero. I'm getting massive algal growth so presumably they're absorbing the nitrate and the ammonia/nitrite is being converted. but why won't ammonia/nitrite come down? Any other suggestions or just keep going as I am?? The levels of all nitrogen compounds were stable at zero before I messed about with the tank.:-( Fish seem ok, it's the corals and inverts I'm worried about. <Fish probably are not too happy either.> Any help much appreciated!! <Richard, you more than likely have a hydrogen sulphide/excess nutrient problem here. One way to tell is to siphon out a small amount and see if it smells like rotten eggs. I would suggest to use a gravel cleaner type siphon when doing water changes. It will take a little time getting efficient at this as you will have to control the siphon output with your fingers so as not to siphon out too much sand. Another method would be to completely siphon out the sand and replace, but do not remove more than a 25% area per week. When this is completed, let the sand bed age a month or so and do re-introduce a Sand Sifting Starfish to help keep the sand bed churned up.> Thanks <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Richard High Nitrites, Cycling 4/6/07 Hey crew, I have an 8 gallon bio cube that has been up for about 2 weeks. I have 8 pounds of live rock with some polyps and a toadstool mushroom leather coral and also a pajama cardinal and a royal Gramma. <Way too much way too fast, need to cycle the tank first.>  My live rock has also  been growing some brown algae on it. My LFS gave me some of there water so I could start it quickly. <Worthless, the bacteria you are trying to culture lives on solid surfaces, not in the water column.> My recent water tests have shown a spike in nitrite and nitrate levels.  <Expected, your tank is cycling.> I have done my water changes and everything but the water is  the same. I went to another fish store and they gave me some liquid to lower the nitrites.  <What was it called?>  I'm not sure what it was called because they gave me a sample only, it had something to do with the bacteria. <Unless it is Bio-Spira kept refrigerated it is of no use.>  So then they told me I need a skimmer but I really don't want one because since its only an 8 gallon it would look horrible in the tank. <Your tank would greatly benefit from it.>  So if you could give me some suggestions on what to do it would be helpful. <An 8 gallon nano is almost impossible to keep, its going to be lots of work.  At most you could keep one very small fish in there.  Also your tank needs to cycle, see here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm for more.> <Chris>

Testing quarantine tank, coppering mollies prophylactically    4/21/07 Dear Mr. Fenner and staff, <Abell> Thank you for your help and advice on my blue tangs in quarantine.  They seem fine and since they've survived all I've unintentionally put them through, Darwin says that they'll be SUPERFISH by the time they're ready for the main tank. I have two three questions: This one is rhetorical.  Even in high school science experiments, I never got the "right" results like everyone else.  Now ... as an adult, each time I test my water, no matter what kind of kit I use ... I seem to get the most BEAUTIFUL colors in my vial ... <Heeee!> that rarely have any relation to the colors on the chart!!  LOL!    Seriously, I change 1.5 gallons of water in my 8.3 (actual) gallon quarantine tank every other day using RO/DI water from my LFS, yet almost every time I test the water ... I get Ammonia close to zero, Nitrate close to zero and Nitrite in the danger 5.0+ zone. <Not impossible>   Instant Ocean granular test, Aquarium Pharm test tube and Jungle test strips all with the same result.  Given that it's a bare quarantine tank and assuming, as you've suggested that I'm over bio-loaded and under filtered, why am I not seeing Ammonia at danger levels? <Is being readily converted...> Does it make sense for them to be almost zero yet Nitrite to be so high even after water changes?  (the LFS water tests 0/0/0) <Yes... very transient values... fish constantly produce ammonia... leaks through their gills, urinate it out, gets converted by decomposed proteinaceous parts of their undigested food/feces... Microbes present are quickly converting this to nitrite... but the complementary microbes that might convert this to nitrate are missing> As an unrelated question .... what is the procedure for quarantining MOLLIES after acclimating them to salt water? <About the same... a few weeks in isolation... for observation, hardening>   After all, they've been in the ultimate Fresh Water Dip, haven't they?   Are there any parasites or diseases that they can bring with them to the main tank?   <Yes... mainly Amyloodinium> If they should be quarantined, would they tolerate a marine-level copper treatment tank? Thanks Again!!! <Can, but I would not prophylactically expose them to this... Unless symptoms show... Bob Fenner>

Nitrite problem  Hello,  I have a 29 gallon tank that has been set up and running for about 45 days.  I started with a few damsels, chocolate chip starfish, live rock, crushed coral and salinity of 0.23. I later added 5 turbo snails and a few more damsels and two tomato clowns. Things seemed great so after another week I added a sea anemone and a scooter blenny. But low and behold the day after I added them my system crashed and I lost all but two damsels, the snails, the starfish and the anemone. My nitrites had sky rocketed. On the advice of the pet dealer, I added a protein skimmer and live sand to my tank and did water changes. The tank seemed to even out so we reintroduced a couple more damsels. They are acting fine but the nitrites are again creeping slowly. The pet dealer told me to do daily water changes but this doesn't seem to be doing much good. The test kit is putting the nitrites at 0.2 for the lowest reading I seem to be able to reach. I would greatly appreciate any help you can give me. I love my salt water tank but am feeling inadequate and frustrated. Also, I am having an outbreak of nuisance (brown) algae on my live coral that my snails can't touch. Any advice on this would also be appreciated.  Sincerely,  Ginger  <Thank you for writing, and I do indeed wish I could help you... all you really need is "time" to go by (out of my jurisdiction)... and to slow down... no more livestock additions, cut way back on feeding (original source of the ammonia converted to nitrites.... And do get your hands on a good reference book (or three) and read over the www.wetwebmedia.com site re aquarium set-up, skimmers, stocking, anemones... Your tank was pushed too fast, too crowded... it will recenter itself, and hopefully you will stay in our wonderful hobby. Bob Fenner>

Re: Nitrite problem Thank you for your help and advice. I will not be adding anything new for awhile and hope it will recenter itself. There were two things I noticed from your site and your email. The first being about my anemone. Unfortunately, I had purchased a sebae without realizing it. I didn't buy it for it's color but was told by the dealer that it was probably the only one I could keep alive as I only have the one 50/50 light in my hood. He told me to feed it daily on silversides and nothing about cleaning up regurgitated food. Perhaps that is part of my nitrite problem? <Yikes... daily feedings are too much and the animal must be cleaned up after as you know... Twice weekly food offerings (and more diverse meaty items) are sufficient. And yes to all this mess and stress being a very real source of your nitrite woes> Another question is about hermit crabs......I had been given one instead of a turbo snail from a dealer. It immediately went after my anemone so I put it in a brackish tank I have with larger fish it couldn't bother....would this be the best place for him rather than reintroducing him to the salt tank? <Perhaps... there is a very wide "lifestyle" range amongst the false crabs called Hermits... some almost exclusively detritivores, some algal feeders, some would pinch off your toe and eat it given the opportunity. Sounds like this one is a non-reef item. I would exclude it> In your opinion, what are the best cleaners of brown algae that has developed on my cat's paw coral?  <Actually none... these are likely diatom scums, and transitory in a developing system... best to outcompete them with other purposeful photosynthetic life... like the celebrated macro-algae, reduce the amount of available nutrient through clean new water use (filtering out silicates, nitrates, phosphates), good synthetic salt mix use, a good/clean skimmer, good maintenance practices...> I was told blennies, crabs, tangs and snails although my turbo snails aren't cleaning very well. <Perhaps a genus Ctenochaetus/Bristlemouth Tang if it will fit in with the rest of your system, livestock. Read about these and diatoms on the WWM site> I will try and get the book you recommended as soon as possible and have bookmarked your page. Thanks again for all your help. Ginger PS: I plan to stay in the hobby a long time:-) <Very glad to hear/read my friend in fish. Bob Fenner>

Spiked nitrites Dear Mr. Fenner, We have a 75 gal tank with 2 small clown fish, 2 small dominos,  <Watch out for these... they get nippy, mean> 1 hippo tang, 1 gold fin tang, 1 rock beauty angel,  <The Gold Fin Tang and Rock Beauty are difficult to keep...> and 1 dog face puffer. We cycled our tank without fish then added the fish and all was well until recently. Our fish developed a case of ick which we immediately medicated with copper Cupramine. <In your main tank... not advised... Likely killed off your beneficial microbes...>  Now the fish are ick free but our nitrites have spiked and we cannot seem to get them down. It also seems as if we are not producing nitrates as well as we should relative to the amount of nitrites. Our ammonia remains at 0 so there is no problem there. We have done several water changes the past few days and vacuumed the crushed coral bed and continue to do so trying to fix the situation. We have an Emperor Bio Wheel system and a Magnum 350 for filtration. It seems as if we are starting all over again. Please help our fish we have grown quite fond of them. Thanks! M.Pena <Or starting "en media res", the middle of things... Be careful here... stop feeding entirely... as your system is in mid-re-cycle... There are a few things you can, should do to speed establishment of nutrient cycling along... first and best, to add some live rock... Don't feed your livestock at all until you have no as in zip nitrites... If the concentration approaches 1.0ppm do a water change with pre-made synthetic water of about the same specific gravity. Please read over the FAQs section of the site: www.WetWebMedia.com under the marine index. Bob Fenner>

Hi Robert! (recycling event mystery... solutions) G'day Bob - I've been browsing your sites for the last 2 days with immense gratitude - I'm having a mini panic - I'm a total neophyte with extreme enthusiasm - I have a 105 gal tank with 2 anemones, a small parrot, 4 damsels, a x-eyed squirrel, a rabbit and a 3'' imperator angel, a couple of cleaner shrimp and a crab. The tank is 5 months old - I think it's re cycling - I've lost an anemone and several fish in the last week - My nitrites are .1 to .2 ppm, Ph 8.0, Temp is 80'F. <Hmm, we need to discover why here> I've added charcoal to my trickle filter? Dropped the salinity to 1.02 and reduced my feeding to minimal and now I'm totally buggered if I know what to do next - I'd really appreciate your help and advice - thanks - regards - Graeme <Thanks for the lucid input... Would do about what you've done... and add a bit more aeration, circulation to the system... particularly directed at whatever spots you might have that don't have much water movement (like behind decor, live rock...). Otherwise, of course, continue with the limited feeding, and do your best to keep water quality stable. These problems have ways of resorting themselves out... usually by evidencing some sort of "dead protein" (a "mysterious" lost organism, die-off in the system somewhere... like a succession/turnover of mix of organisms in the substrate, live rock...) and recycling as you state. Bob Fenner>

Sick fish??? How are you? Somehow I just knew I was going to end up writing you for something. <This happens> I just recently was given a saltwater startup system as a gift. It has been running for a month, and is just about at the end of its cycling time..... it is a 38 Gallon glass aquarium, Fluval 204 filter, crushed coral substrate. I have a 6 inch airstrip running constantly. It has 2 pieces of coral (non-living) as well as some shale rocks I used to build a few caves for the fish. I have a striped damsel, domino damsel, 4 inch grouper and a baby Picasso trigger (who I added 2 days ago ... I know, I shouldn't add fish until the cycle is done, but I couldn't resist the little guy) <A "grouper" and a triggerfish in a 38 gallon system? These species are likely too big psychologically and will be too large physiologically...> in the tank. Measurements are 0 ammonia, 0.5 nitrites, 80 nitrates.  <Hmm, the last readings are high... and the shale concerns me> PH running steady at 8.2, and the temp at 79. All was fine until the last few days. The grouper has stopped feeding 3 days ago (prior to the added trigger), and in the last 2 days or so has taken to hiding in the caves. He rarely comes out. We have observed him scratching himself on the rocks, but do not see any white spots, so I don't think its Ick.....His eyes reddened a few days ago, and I have been doing daily 30% water changes since..... The domino seems to be injured from the constant attacks of the striped damsel ,who has been nipping him badly lately. Otherwise the fish are doing well.  <!> They continue to eat ravenously although we stopped feeding 2 days ago (per the FAQ's we read on your site) to bring the nitrites down. They were hovering at 2.0. <Yikes!> This morning I gave them a light feeding. The grouper showed no interest at all. Any suggestions/ideas what can be ailing the grouper?  <... don't feed anything until the nitrites are at zero, zilch, nada... the fishes you list will not starve... and are in much more danger of dying from poisoning otherwise... and start either looking for a larger system or trading the bass and trigger in> We have not lost a fish for about 2 weeks now..... we had another damsel who got very weak during the beginning of the nitrite spike, and became a late night snack to the grouper. I appreciate any insight you can give, and also want to say thanks for all the knowledge we have gained reading your site. Steve D'angelo <Ah my friend... you are on the very steep side of a learning curve here... best to take all slow for now... cease feeding, remove the shale, look to adding a few pieces of live rock... this is what I would do. Bob Fenner>

Re: Sick fish??? Thank you very much for the reply. Kinda knew that was the answer, sometimes my stubborn self overrules the logical one.. <Happens to everyone I've ever met> Sorry....the rock is not shale, its slate. I have added 5 pounds of live rock, and looking to get another 5 - 10 pds this week. The LFS has a batch curing, with some very nice pieces, and won't sell any of it until later this week. How much live rock do you think is necessary? <Don't recall how large your system is, shape... about a pound per gallon> Again, thanks for the help. Just sign me "not feeding in NJ".... <Hmm, am off to the airport in a bit to drop off friends who are returning to Garfield, Belmar... They were feeding. Bob Fenner>

Oh the inexperienced but lucky ones!! (?, too much livestock, nitrite...) Hi Bob, New to saltwater tanks and I wanted to run this past you for suggestions. This is my current situation: 90 Gal tank Full UGF with (2) sweeping powerheads 125 gph each 100 lbs crushed coral substrate 30 lbs lava rock <Do test this for iron content...> 20 lbs ornament rock <Not live?> air curtain (3) Damsels (1) Porcupine Puffer, 2" (1) Valentini Puffer, 2" (1) Cowfish, 3" (1) Black Volitans Lion, 2" (1) Longnose Tang, 4" (2) Eclipse 3 hoods w/functional bio-wheels Seaclone protein skimmer <You could use a bigger, more serious skimmer> ph 7.8, ammonia 0.25, nitrite 5.0 (yikes!!) <As in five parts per million? not 0.5? Stop feeding! get ready to execute a large water change... no more livestock added...> , nitrate 10 salinity 1.019 system running for 5 weeks <What? When did you place all this livestock? Should have been later, much> feeding 3 times a day (I know now after reading your site to go to every other day) <Don't feed at all, zero for right now... till the nitrite goes to zip> I hope you can help me establish a balanced system for my fish. Thanks!!! Paul. <Yikes! We need to take a bunch of steps back... I would STRONGLY encourage you to read through all the marine set-up and maintenance sections on our site: www.WetWebMedia.com, and join our chat forum and read a good general marine aquarium book or two (for more rounded opinions than you can get from yours truly). Do start reading NOW! And join: http://talk.wetwebfotos.com/  where there are many fine folks who will help you as well... And do consider adding live rock, pre-cured to your system... it has not cycled completely and could well toxify your livestock to the extent of death. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich Treatment Mr. Fenner, The nitrite is over 1.0 ppm. The only clue I can think of is maybe from lowing the salinity from 1.023 to 1.010. This spg lowering was done slowly, maybe too, slow. <What? No such thing as too slow... and you don't state how over how long this period was...?> I was even shock with this high nitrite level that I used two different test kits. Sure enough, it was high on both kits. I am doing a 10% water change tomorrow. <Don't feed anything in the meanwhile. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich Treatment Sorry, I didn't explain myself correctly. What I mean by slow is, it took me ten days to come down to 1.010.  <Ah! This time frame should have been fine to sustain nitrifiers.> Started taking a gallon of tank water and replacing with same amount with RO water. Four days later 2 gallons were taken out but notice that spg was not going down much. Finally, I stated taken 5 gallons out and replacing with 5 gallons RO water. When I got down to 1.010, I added the total gallons, to my surprise I took out 33 gallons from a 46 gallon tank. Now I am realizing the reason the nitrite is high. <Hmm, well, for whatever reasons, appreciable nitrite is bad news. Would not feed the system and be ready to move your livestock should other negative events occur. Bob Fenner>

Nitrite problems Two weeks ago, I added two small common clownfish to my 180l tank, where they joined my small pajama wrasse and small hermit crab. I have a Sanders maxi-skim 400 which I added 10 days ago. I have an internal Juwel filter. <All good products> I made a 10% water change yesterday with R.O water. Nitrite 0.25 and trace ammonia. The reading haven't gone down since they went up after I put in the clowns. I would appreciate your help, James Matthams <Hmm, do take care here. I would feed the clowns only sparingly if at all... Important that the system cycle completely. Please do read through the FAQs on ammonia and nitrite in marine systems:  http://wetwebmedia.com/nh3marfaqs.htm http://wetwebmedia.com/no2probfaqs.htm posted on our site. Adding some live rock (cured) or ready-made nitrifying bacteria culture may be in order here. Bob Fenner>

Nitrite and nitrate Hi Bob, <Actually Steven Pro this morning.> Why is it always a Sunday when the problems seem to show up....!? I am cycling my rock in a new 75 gal tank. (I've written to you before about muscles and education) I had a 55 fish only tank that was fine with live rock and substrate etc. Only 1 clown and a yellow tail in it. I am concentrating on the new tank. Anyway we have been using the water from the fish only tank to help cycle the new 75. All was really going well with ammonia down to nothing and nitrite down etc. We added new rock to the tank last Tues and the clean up crew from Tampa Bay......All was good....by Friday all ammonia still at 0 etc. Then the fish only tank let go. Friday AM bright and early...pouring on the floor..... <Oh no!> Had to think fast so we took probably 25 gal from the fish only tank and the live rock and put in in the new tank....we didn't know what to do about the fish but 2 weeks ago a fish hitchhiked on a piece of rock that we moved from the fish only to the new and he seemed fine so we took a chance. We put our fish in it too This AM ... Ammonia .5 Nitrite NO2-N between 1 and 5 NO2 between 3.3 and 16.5 Nitrate between 50 and 100 PH 8 KH 9 LFS said yesterday (I saw the readings were starting to creep up) do nothing....maybe a little water change to help the fish but I'm actually prolonging the stress and I may as well get it over with..... <Not quite correct. You might prolong the cycling process by doing water changes. Not stress.> What do you think? Should I do a massive water change like 30 gal or a small one like 10 gal. Or sit in front of the tank and bite my nails.....skimmer is running like mad.....we have 2 charcoal filters on the sump and all life in the tank looks fine.....Thank you Helene <Do mix up and aerate some water to keep on hand. Keep a close eye on your fish and the test kit readings and be prepared to do a large water change (30 gallons). Good that you skimmer is performing well. Best of luck. -Steven Pro>

Re: nitrite and nitrate Thank you Steven, <You are quite welcome, Helene.> I ran in from feeding the horses and checked the email and there you were. I appreciate this so much. Not sure if I understand correctly. Should I do the water change now? How much worse should the nitrite and nitrate get before the 30 gallon water change? Or should I wait until the fish act funny and then change and check the readings.....Hope that you are having a nice Sunday...I'm about to entertain a friend from Ca that I've only seen 1 time in 30 years...She told me that she has a fish phobia.....this may either send her into orbit or cure her, huh? What a day for a visit.....Thank you again. Helene <I am going to make a few assumptions before I give you my advise. First, it sounds like you are going to be very busy and may not be able to watch the fish real closely. No offense intended, we all have busy lives. Plus, tomorrow is Monday and you may be going back to work. In that case, I would do the water change now, if you have the time and have good, aged water to use (mixed well and aerate for at least a few hours). Also, try to mix up some more water when you are done for future use if things get worse. You should get your friend to start the siphon hose. Ha-Ha! -Steven Pro>

Re: nitrite and nitrate Thank you and I'm beginning to think that you're never too busy to watch a fish....That's the problem and why (and I discussed this with Bob) the IRS gives you a tax break on the whole thing....I work at home....You pay your employees to watch the darn things too. Their heartbeat goes down and yours goes up!!! <I own an aquarium maintenance business. Everything I have fish related is a write off.> We are going to do a 15 gal water change now and make up a whole 32 gal trash can for later if we need it....sound OK? <Sounds fine.> Hope my friend doesn't need to shower after the siphoning 'cause that can is in the shower! <That made me laugh out loud!> Thank you. Helene <You are welcome. I hope you can enjoy the rest of your day. -Steven Pro>

High Nitrite Level Hello I am very happy to find your sites. I have a tank about two months old. The original fish purchased with the tank are still living through the chemical changes. All new fish have expired. I finally found out it is because of high nitrite levels. I have done a 50% water change and tested still high. Then a 25% change, tested a bit lower then I just did a 75% water change and will test again in a few days. What do you suggest. <I would archive the WWM site for information on tank cycling. Try to keep the fish load to a minimum and do not overfeed.> The levels are not decreasing as I have anticipated. <Not unusual to take several months depending on tank size, bio-load, feeding, etc.> I am trying to remedy the situation before I lose any more fish. The ammonia level tested fine. The nitrate level tested fine. Just the nitrite level is the problem-or so I have been told from the pet store after testing my water. Please help. I am trying to keep them living during these changes. <Nothing much to do at this point but continue water changes when necessary. Most people run into these kinds of problems when adding too many fish, too quickly.> Thanks, Thia <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Re: high nitrite level hello Robert, thanks for the info. in the past two days I have lost two more fish. how often should I do water changes? <Once a typical captive aquatic system is fully cycled, anywhere from once a week to once a month. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water.htm and FAQs> is every day a 25% too much? <Yes> I am trying like hell. not many fish left, about 5 small to medium. if (god forbid) they all die should I keep the tank running and testing or should I start from scratch again? <Please read through WWM> is this nitrite level problem normal in setting up tanks? should I have set up an empty tank and waited to add fish? any info you will offer is greatly appreciated. thanks again Thia <Please read through WWM. Study my friend. Then act... through knowledge, understanding. Bob Fenner>



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