Leaking Pond question 5/13/09
Hello,
<Hi there>
I have a perplexing problem. I have a pond with a stream and three small waterfalls that was constructed about 10 years ago. The pond is about 15' long by 12' at it's widest point and 1.5 deep (for water), though the sides of the pond are higher than the water level.
<Thank goodness>
The stream runs about 30 feet with a molded plastic basin at the "top".
The water is filtered in the basin and runs out (first waterfall with a 12" drop) to the stream. About halfway down the curving stream, the water reaches the next very small lip which creates a 6" waterfall.
Finally, the water falls into the pond from the stream (third waterfall). Water is pumped from the pond through a flexible PVC(?) pipe up to the basin. The pump sits in a plastic basin that also filters the water and catches debris in a black mesh net.
Now to the problem. We are losing a significant amount of water every day. The water level drops as much as 6".
<Mmm... could be a leak in the plumbing (I'd pressure test or have someone do this for you... not hard if you have the gear...) Or just turn the pump off... see if any one basin or perhaps the plumbing is the source here.... or...>
We thought that since the water drains out of the pond so quickly, that the problem was with the liner.
<Most likely so>
We had all the rocks removed, as well as the river rock that the contractor placed in the bottom of the
pond. We found a large hole in the EPDM liner. We thought that was the problem. It's not. Rather than removing the old liner, we decided to lay a 20 mil PVC liner on top of the old liner, that has an under-layment.
<The best approach. What I would have done as well>
We replaced the boulder walls and have nothing but the black liner exposed on the bottom of the pond.
We ran pump for the pond. Yippee! It looked great...the pump worked...the waterfalls looked lovely. Low and behold, it leaked!
There is no visible damp soil along the stream.
<Mmmm>
We thought that the flexible hose could be damaged; that there might be a lose connection at either point from the piping to the basins; that the waterfalls had leaks, but after we turned the pump off, the pond
still lost a significant amount of water overnight, even with the new liner in place.
<I see... a mystery for sure>
We are totally perplexed. Do you have an suggestions on how to repair this leaking pond? Thank you for your consideration.
Marcia Marshall
Illinois
<I do... I would call in "experts" here... in the swimming pool business...
Do see your in-print and electronic yellow pages/directories for such... Am very sure there will be some in the area who do such diagnostic work (for pools)... with listening gear, dyes et al. that can be applied and tested for outside the basins... Oh, and please do write me/us back with your results. Bob Fenner>

Re: Leaking Pond question
Dear Bob,
<Marcia>
Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. I was hoping for some magical diagnosis that would allow us to zero in on our problem.
<Mmm, well, the test gear is "kind of magical"... we owned some "super ears" years back... that could actually sense very small water leaks... to pretty close to their source...>
Because money is so tight, we are going to try the "milk trick" that I gleaned from a couple of websites. You put droppers full of milk all around the edge of your water and look to see if the milk is drawn to the liner/hole in the pond.
<Yes... hard to see... but worth trying>
Right now that's more economical that hiring an expert. If the milk doesn't lead us to the hole, we'll save some money for the next step in this project. We'd fill the pond with dirt but we love the sound of the moving water and it's such a beautiful feature in our yard.
<A painful source of memories for me... Many of our water features have subsequently been filled in...>
Thank you for you input.
Marcia
<Certainly welcome. BobF>

Re: Leaking Pond question 5/13/09
One more thought Bob, on why I am reluctant to bring in an expert with "ears"....we have a septic system and water lines, including the lift pump are all _very_ close our pond. If they hear water, it could be a
component of the septic field instead of the leak. Wouldn't that be likely? Would that make their "ears" ineffective?
<Mmm, don't really know anymore... some of these devices can be pushed into the ground near the suspected source...>
Thank you again! I really appreciate your responsiveness! Want to come over for coffee and look at our pond? * : ) * (I bet you get many invitations!)
Marcia
<Ahh, thank you, but no... am out for the next six weeks giving presentations, attending a trade show and diving in the Far East... BobF>

Pond Liner Bubbling up 5/10/08
Hello Bob,
<Bob is off with no/minimal internet, Scott V. with you. I apologize for the delay in getting to your query.>
Your advice seems spot on and I hope you can help me. I installed a large pond last summer with my cousin (30'X20' 4' deep in the center). Everything was great until severe weather hit at the end of the summer and destroyed my pond.
<Sorry to hear this.>
I have cleaned everything up by draining the pond and disposing of the mulch and excess dirt. However, there is one lingering issue;
The liner keeps bubbling up due to water trapped underneath. It goes nearly 100% after storms, but bubbles up to the top again after any significant rain fall. I read your suggestion to install some sort of pump, but it would be impossible to get underneath the liner without removing 15-20 tons of rock!
<A pump underneath is one option, a natural gravity fed drainage system or diverting the water away to begin with being two more options.>
What if I put large heavy rocks on the bottom to hold the liner down? My fear is that it will just spread the problem to other areas. If I push the liner down in one spot, it naturally lifts another.
<This will be the case.>
I hope we have not made an irreversible rookie mistake. My cousin and I have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into this thing (not to mention time and money). Is there any other suggestion if I cannot divert the water (I would have to build a moat around the pond) or install a pump?
<Installing a drainage system would be your best option if you cannot divert the flow to prevent the problem. Sorry, no “magic bullets” here. The water will do where gravity tells it to go. You will either have to take advantage of this or employ a pump as you mention.>
Thanks in advance for your time and consideration,
Bill
<Welcome, I hope this helps, Scott V.>

re: Pond liner bubbling up 05/14/08
Hello Scott,
<BobF this time>
Thanks for the response. What would you recommend using for a diverter?
<Can be of use>
We dug a French drain around the exterior of the pond. There is still one location that I could use some sort of diverter to channel the water to the drain. Gravity can be my friend on this if we can figure out a way to divert the water. We built the pond in what used to be a run off ditch, so the water naturally wants to go there.
<Ah, yes>
In addition, I am looking at using a well digging service to put some drainage under the pond. This should help with the bubbling up of the liner.
<Agreed>
We had a huge storm and once again it bubbled up, but 12-16 hours later the liner resubmerged itself. The backside of the pond is a man made wall (remember it was a drainage ditch before we cam along), so it is easy to access on one side. Have you ever heard of using this method and do you have any recommendations before I attempt this?
<I have done such work before. Our companies used to lay down (Mainly PVC) waterproof barriers in advance of reinforcing mesh and cementaceous material. Sometimes there would be displacement twixt these... particularly with a failure in the surrounding soil>
Are you sure you can't send me some magic bullets?
<Mmm, there are none>
Just kidding and thanks for helping me brain storm. I am learning a lot about drainage and water flow (more than I ever cared too!). In the end the years of enjoyment will be worth all of the blood, sweat and tears.
<Again, we are in agreement. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Floating pond liner, reading  - 1/31/08
Hi,
I am in Texas and have had my pond over ten years, now I am having episodes of my vinyl liner floating, the water is getting underneath and I have to drop a little pump alongside the liner to pump it out. The pond is about 24" deep, has a main drain, and is about 10' X 8", there is a magnolia tree that has grown up over the years by the pond, Do you have any suggestions for a fix?
Thank you
<Mmm, well... your options come down to... doing nothing... or something... The last, into diverting water around the basin, providing a sump/lower area with a pump with a float switch... Or providing a cement plus mesh... coating on top. See here re: http://wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Liner bubbles – 10/18/07
I tried to register on the site, but the username field is not operable.
<WWF... we (WWM) unfortunately do not control...>
I have developed air bubbles under the liner of my 900 gallon pond. I do not wish to rebuild, will the trapped air damage the liner, or pond integrity?
<Likely not...>
The liner was the heaviest available 3 years ago when constructed. Thanks in advance, Barry
<The air (or more likely water there) may well "go away" in time. In the meanwhile, try to avoid "poking" the areas. Bob Fenner>

Pond question - 8/17/07
Mr. Fenner-
<Mr. Agins>
I recently installed a pond with approximate nominal dimensions of 13'L x 16'W x 2.5' D. Because of the rounded corners, and such, it is less than the 3900 gallons the dimensions would imply, perhaps by 20%. So, let's say that it's roughly 3000 gallons. The pond is EPDM lined with EasyPro aquafalls at the head, and skimmer on the wall opposite the waterfall. The waterfall feeds a stream approximately 3'W x 10'L x 9"D. I am using a PondMaster 5000 GPH mag drive pump.
<Okay...>
When I first assembled everything, following the manufacturer's directions for through-the-liner installation of the skimmer weir door, the water level drained to exactly the bottom of the weir, leading me to conclude that the weir connection was the culprit.
<Likely so>
I called the supplier from whom I bought the materials, who told me that silicone would not adhere to EPDM
<This is correct>
(contrary
to the manufacturer's instructions) and to use EPDM caulk for the connection. When I called my local roofing supplier, they told me that EPDM caulk is just a temporary material and, instead, to used a particular waterproof EPDM tape.
<If the space/gap is very small, this may work...>
I have applied this tape - very carefully, after cleaning the EPDM liner with a solvent and rolling the tape with a roller after application - but still notice a slow drop in water level. I have checked the seam where the stream liner meets the pond liner and have re-taped that junction, also. When I turn off the pump (which has a check valve in the line to prevent backflow), the Aquafalls remains full, leading me to believe there is no leak in the bulkhead fittings or the flexible PVC connection to the Aquafalls.
<Seems reasonable>
The run of flexible 2" PVC connecting the skimmer to the Aquafalls is about 30' long and runs 8-10" below ground level, in newly laid topsoil. I don't see any evidence of wet ground around the path of the PVC tubing.
Question (after this very long preamble): Is it possible that the drop in water level could be the result of evaporation?
<Mmm, over how much time how many inches of water? And then it virtually stops? It's the skimmer...>
Any help you could provide would be most sincerely appreciated. Thank you.
Richard Agins
<Please send along a link to the actual product if you can... and I will do my best to help you. Bob Fenner>

Re: Pond question, through-put/skimmer leak  - 8/17/07
Here is the link to the skimmer - I have the small (which isn't all that small): http://www.justliners.com/easyproskimmers.htm
and here is the link to the extension tube: http://www.justliners.com/easyproextentube.htm
<I see... the material the "clamp mechanism's faces" are made of is some sort of plastic... likely PVC sheet...>
I didn't mention that I installed the extension tube to the skimmer using a double bead of silicone.
<This is what I would have done as well... a few "squigglies"/lines on either side, waiting ten minutes or so...>
Both the skimmer and the extension are made of a resin or polymer of some sort, are rigid, and bolted together quite tightly.
<No need to be "too" tight>
In response to your question, 2-3 inch drop in water level in 2 days with the pump running. I can't imagine that there isn't a reliable way to make the skimmer connection without leaks. This has taken more time than any other aspect of the construction.
Thanks again. Richard
<And you've tried leaving the system w/o the pump running with the same water loss I take it... 2-3 inches in two days is a bit much... unless there is a good deal of splash, spray involved... and or very dry/high winds... Myself, I would try taking this all apart (yes, once again) and re-Siliconing both faces... and let set up for a day w/ the water low to let set. Bob Fenner>

Re: Pond question - 8/17/07
Thank you. I left the pump off today. I'll review the situation when I get home tonight to see whether there's been a further drop. Your advise is much appreciated.
<Real good. BobF>

Tired pond liner   8/10/07
I have a 14 x16 pond (rubber type liner ?)
<Likely so if it's lasted this/that long>
that I put in about 13 years ago in a koi pond. it is not very level, and part of the liner has been exposed. I have little dogs that go down the slope to drink
from the pond, and I think they and raccoons may have punctured the deteriorating liner,
<Does happen>
There are no visible holes. Where the water has receded and the liner is dry there is a band of uneven chalky looking residue, it may be a little flakey.
<Likely an accumulation of solids from the water over the years ("scale") along with some biological and leaf litter material accumulation...>
I cannot afford to replace whole liner at this time. Is there anything I could paint or spray on the damaged area to give it a little longer life?
<Mmm, yes... but not advised. Not likely to work or "band-aid" this basin for long or well>
I could wash off some of the residue with a not very powerful "power wand". Am 73 year little old lady.
Thank you. V
<Mmm... Are there some folks who might help you? Carefully drain the basin, remove a good deal of the overburden ("muck") to take a closer look? One must be very careful in getting in/out of established ponds as they are treacherously slippery... and it is very easy to tear even a new, thick liner with stepping on something sharp... But such work can be done (and is periodically needed). Please ask about in your local garden centers to see if there is a "Pond" or "Water Garden" club in your area... contact these folks... as they in turn should know who might help you here. The materials that can be applied to an old/er EPDM/Butyl/Rubber liner need to be placed in exacting conditions... with the liner very clean and dry... Please feel free to re-contact me, or have the folks who will help you do so if I may be of further service. Bob Fenner>

Re: pond repair, liner    8/20/07
Hi!
I wrote to you recently about a pond liner that has reached its end. I think it is a kind of rubber? Now you can see a grid, and it empties itself rapidly. It is approximately !5ft by 16ft, and about 3ft at its deepest. when i built it, I lined it with cement, but it didn't hold water so I put in a sub liner and the liner. I was hoping I could patch it or reseal it, but you said it wouldn't work. Now I want to put in a new liner, having found a young man with muscle who could do the job. what I need is some guidance for him.
<Please have him contact me here>
I was thinking of cleaning the pond out very well and using the existing liner as a sub liner, for what good it is. What material do you recommend? Longevity is not particularly important at this point as i am a little old lady, 73.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm
and the linked files above... Embossed EPDM would be best...>
I had a box filter outside the pond: sort of a Rubbermaid box with turning foam rollers which didn't turn, and that crunchy white sort of wiry white pad on top. Cant remember what it's called.
Polyfiber? Fed from the top by a pipe with y joints and holes .It never worked really well, and I would like to make/ buy something more efficient, preferably biologic. I have a half wine barrel available.
Price is a factor.
<Please see WWM's Pond subweb>
I would really appreciate some guidance here.
Have arthritic hands, and typing for web research is very painful and slow,, so I'm hoping you can give me some answers although I am sure the information I seek is available in your FAQs
Thank you!
Vivienne
<Is... that and articles archived. Bob Fenner>

PVC pipe cement to adhere patching material  5/30/07
Hello, is it possible to use PVC pipe cement to adhere patching material (TetraPond PVC) to a punctured liner of the same type liner material?
<If it is made of this... Tetra Liners used to be EPDM... Rubber...
http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Pond_Liners___Repair_Kits_and_Tape_23.html>
If so, does/could PVC pipe primer also need/may be used prior to applying the cement?
<If using PVC solvent... yes>
From the "Home of Low Over-head" do-it-your-selfer,
Joe in Kansas
<This liner is made of other material I believe... I would "test" only a small piece... where it won't be noticed. See the above link for other repair technology. Bob Fenner>

Re: PVC pipe cement to adhere patching material, not reading...  5/31/07
Wow, thanks for the quick response. I say the liner is PVC, because I described it (black on one side and green on the other side - like flattened out garden hose) to a local landscape/pond company and they thought it was PVC.
<...>
Does the that description sound to you like PVC. I did try a test, and other than a little shrinkage, it seemed to work OK. I'll check (bench tested) it again at 24hrs post application.
What kind of waiting time to refill would you recommend.
Thanks again for your timely response.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerpdrepfaqs.htm
, and the linked files above where you lead yourself. BobF>

Pond <repair> Question    5/11/07
I have a 7000 +/-gallon pond with a waterfall and coping around the rest of the area. This has been set up for about 5 years and from a biological POV has been very successful. The problem we are having is the coping stones are tipping into the pond. Although they are set in mortar and grouted in between  they are no longer stable.
<Mmm, wondering what became of the mortar base>
I have spoken to my mason who helped me build the pond and he said we could pin them in but we have a EPDM liner. Do you have any suggestions to lock them into place.
   Thank you for any advice you might be able to offer.
   Michael Jove
<I would lower the water level, remove the present work and lay in a new mortar (actually I'd use concrete and reinforcing mesh... chicken wire or stucco wire... that you can cut with shears... let this set up for a day, and mortar the coping stones with mortar the next day (maybe with a bit of lime or white glue (the mason will know what I'm referring to...) to make all a bit "stickier". Bob Fenner>

Re: Pond Question    5/11/07
Thank you for responding so quickly.< I wish all consult/repair services were so timely>. The mortar base is still there but because it is set on the liner which has give I am sure that shortened its lifespan. Your suggestion of either lath or a rebar equivalent is something we have been mulling over and now will probably use.   
  Thank you once again.
<Welcome... I have done such repairs before... If the present mortar is substantially adhered to the liner, I would just leave it there, remove the coping stones, re-sent in a new foundation built over the present stuck-on mortar bed. Bob Fenner>

Pond Liner Lifts   2/20/07
Good Day,
<And to you>
I have searched through your great site and, unfortunately, have been unable to find any information pertaining to our problem.  Our outdoor pond is 8' x 11".  It is 3' deep at one end, 2' at the other.  The pond has a liner.  During our rainy season ground water seeps under the pond and lifts the liner so a lot of pond water drains away.
<Yikes... really need to make a drain away from this "underneath" area... to even lower ground... rely on gravity is best... a pump with a float switch if need be>
When the ground water dissipates, the liner drops and the pond needs to have water added.  This has been a problem since we purchased our house ten years ago.  The liner now has holes
<Yikes...>
and we need to install a new liner ASAP as we have loads of fish temporarily housed in an upper pond which is too small for the long-term.
We are currently working on replacing the liner but we can't seem to get the area to dry out.  We have the pond drained in the afternoon and then next morning there is a foot or more of water in the deep end.
<Yes... same sort of situation, challenge as above... need to either have a purposeful drain, or set up an automated (electrical) pump/switch...>
With the water constantly coming in, we are not sure if we can install the new liner and achieve a good close fit.
<Not likely, no...>
  Do you have any ideas or suggestions how we can properly install a liner and/or resolve our lifting liner problem?  (We live near the ocean and there are numerous underground streams making their way from the mountains to the ocean.)
<Ah, yes...>
Thank you kindly for you time and any assistance you can offer.
Margaret Maringgele
<Mmm, if you had a small pump, you might be able to "sink" this into the ground next to the existing hole (digging), place the pump in a plastic bucket... and allow it to pump out the water while installing the new liner... but really the only permanent fix is the drain or automated pump/switch mentioned. Bob Fenner>

Re: Pond Liner Lifts   2/20/07
Bob,
<Margaret>
Thank you so much for your quick response and possible solutions.  My proposed solution, involving dump trucks and fill, wasn't well received by
my husband.
<Yikes!>
Hopefully he'll like your ideas better and we'll have a liner that stays on the bottom of the pond.
<I hope so!>
Margaret
<BobF>

45 mil EPDM liner repair   12/11/06
I have to patch my pond liner, it is heavy EPDM rubber made by Firestone, it is a very large project we use for swimming with chlorine added to the
water, we have excess material we can use for patches is there any product we can buy for an adhesive or product we can order ? Thank you Barbara
<Mmm... there are various patch kits... but I and others don't hold these in high regard... Better to buy a new, whole piece to use. You can read here re: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&ie=UTF-8&rls=PCTA,PCTA:2006-31,PCTA:en&q=epdm+rubber+liner+patching
Bob Fenner>

Re: 45 mil EPDM liner repair   12/11/06
Thank you... I had a feeling this liner was going to be a problem, the man that sold it to a few of us has closed the business and probably is hiding,
<!?>
can you send me a link to the home page of your site, I can't seem to get back there, thank you Barbara
<Ah, yes my friend... www.WetWebMedia.com
There is a bit here re Liner Repairs: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerpdrepfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Leaky Pond - 10/08/06
I had a beautiful pond with seven goldfish until yesterday when landscapers cut a branch off a near tree and part of it landed in the pond.  There is now some kind of leak because all the water, down to three inches or so, is gone.
<Yeeikes... is this a liner-only pond? Will have to be repaired, perhaps the liner replaced>
  Two fish died.  The guy came over and took out the surviving fish. They are in a bucket with the pond plants now but I don't know what to do.  He says he can't find the leak.  Since the winter is coming, I could let it go except I don't know what to do with the fish.  Is there a body of water into which they can safely be released?
<Not the wild, no... a very poor idea>
I live by the ocean but obviously that is not a solution.  I have to do something fast because the bucket is no solution either, and I can't fill the pond back up without finding the leak. Help!
RBonne
<For the livestock, if you don't want to try to over-winter them indoors... perhaps a space in the garage... I would call local "fish stores" (see "Aquariums", "Ponds" in your Yellow Pages...). BobF>

Leaking 25ml polyethylene liner 8/17/05
Hi crew,
I've had a leaking pond for 7 years. It is made of 25 ml polyethylene and I know where the leak is at. I have tried to clean it very
carefully and re-tape it with 6" tape from the company I bought the liner from several times. The tape has worked great except for one
place. It is on the north side of the pond and it almost never dries out. What type of solvent is best for cleaning the liner to prepare it for tape?
<... alcohols are about the safest, most thorough...>
I have been using rubbing  alcohol, since it dries so fast, but I'm thinking there must be some type of solvent that is specifically suited for polyethylene. Also since the area that has to be re-taped has many curves and 25 ml  polyethylene is so rigid is there a better material that can be used to go over the polyethylene, but will stick to it.
<Not as far as I'm aware>
My pond is approximately 120'x30'x9'deep. Replacing the entire liner is out of the question, it has a  shelf all the way around it with rock placed in the shelf and a rock walkway all around the top of the pond. I have spent literally hundreds of hours of my time getting it to this point.  The repair has to be made in place. If you can give me some suggestions I would greatly appreciate it. Dynamite is my next option. HELP
Thanks in advance
Tim
<I wish I had better news for you, but there is nothing that I'm aware of that will help, or repair a polyethylene liner... One of the reasons I am so opposed to their use in biological ponds, basins. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PondSubWebIndex/linerspdconst.htm
Bob Fenner>

Re: leaking 25ml polyethylene liner 8/17/05
That sure made my day, your site is a great source of info. thanks
<Am very sorry for your troubles... we replaced many "poly" liners over the years... no fun, to put it mildly. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Liner Pond, leaking...
I checked through existing questions and could not find the answer to this specifically.
We have a large (about 15,000) gallon pond (it is also varying heights from two to six feet deep) it is three years old. Every year we try to get it to run but the liner leaks where it was joined to fit. We resealed all the bottom drains so that is not the problem. We have resealed the seam but it keeps failing. Due to the large size it is not easy to repair. Is there some sort of a spray or brush on sealant that we could apply to the seam to permanently seal it. I was thinking something like a roof type sealer?
P.S. we want to put fish in the pond so it would have to be safe.  Thanks.
<Good question... I have extensive experience with poly(ethylene), butyl (rubber), EPDM, and vinyl liners... some are repairable, others are a bear, the first, impossible. If yours is vinyl, you may be able to attach a wide swath of material... with it clean, dry (the pond empty) and the use of a solvent (e.g. THF... toxic, flammable... unpleasant to breath, get on skin...). Have you considered laying in reinforcing material and shot- or concreting this basin in? Or even placing another liner (whole) over the existing? These possibilities are discussed in articles, FAQs files on our pond subweb. I'd be reading there. Bob Fenner>

Repairing a pond liner, literacy
HI,
   We have a pond in our back yard that has a rubber like stiff liner. And it has a leak. Is there anything I can use to repair it.
    thank you  Marty Soloman
<Please see WWM re... the Pond Subweb... Liners... Depends on the make-up of the material, the nature of the tear... Bob Fenner>

Re: pond liner
Thank you for your response.
How can I tell what kind of material I have. I'm completely new at this.
       Marty Soloman
<Ah, good question. Best to snip a small piece off, and take with you to the nearest "garden pond shop"... Maybe take a look in your "Yellow Page" phone directories under "Ponds"... the folks there should be able to tell you if it's EPDM, Butyl, Polyethylene... and whether they have patch kits, solvent for such a repair. Bob Fenner>