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Hawaiian Feather Duster vs. Toadstool
3/16/17 NEED GUIDANCE PLEASE... Read through this and decide... the
clues are here 6/3.5/13 Leather compatibility 12/9/10 Colt Coral under attack? Cladiella sp compatibility.
10/8/2010 Sarcophyton and Sea Rod 8/23/10 Trouble With Fiji Leather/Nitrate Control
5/21/10
R5: Sand-Sifting Goby (Starved Due To Old Age?), now
chatting re Sarcophyton comp.-- 04/12/10
Possible Death of Toadstool Leather kill a Mandarin?
10/11/09 Allelopathy --leathers and LPS don't mix
10/09/09 Re: allelopathy --leathers and LPS don't mix 10/09/09
10/15/09 Large Yellow Leather... Concerns about Allelopathy
9/17/09
I have made the mistake of adding corals before reading about possible compatibility... Cnid. Interactions 2/27/09 Hi crew, I sent this once and it was sent back without a response, so I thought I would just send it again. <Good> I have made the mistake of adding corals before reading about possible compatibility. I have a 75 gallon tank, that I run a Remora Pro, an Emperor 400 full of charcoal, an about 3600 gph worth of flow with the powerheads alone. And i do about a 15 gallon a week water change. My question is about my coral selection. I have multiple mushrooms, daisy polyps, a colt, finger leather, toadstool, cabbage leather and a newly added torch coral. Aside from a few mushrooms, the torch coral is the only coral on the right side of the tank, everything else, is to the left. This is due to never having a LPSs before, and understanding the sweepers can stretch quite far. <The chemicals further...> My biggest question is referring to the leathers. With this small of a tank, do you foresee an issue with the leathers and the newly added LPSs? <Could be, yes> Also from reading, it seems the colt may also prove a threat to the leathers. I'm wondering if with the amount of carbon I run, and with the frequent water changes, do you believe they would be likely to thrive together? <Only experience here can tell...> Otherwise, I will have to get rid of the leathers, which would be unfortunate, since they have taken nicely to the tank, and are now attached to the larger pieces of live rock in my tank. Your advise would be greatly appreciated. Marc <There are a few techniques, tools for reducing such negative Cnidarian interactions... a fave ppt pitch of mine... You can read it here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner> My question is about my coral selection. Mixing Cnid.s, reading 2/26/09 Hi crew, <Marc> I have made the mistake of adding corals before reading about possible compatibility. I have a 75 gallon tank, that I run a Remora Pro, an Emperor 400 full of charcoal, an about 3600 gph worth of flow with the powerheads alone. And i do about a 15 gallon a week water change. My question is about my coral selection. <Ok> I have multiple mushrooms, daisy polyps, a colt, finger leather, toadstool, cabbage leather and a newly added torch coral. Aside from a few mushrooms, the torch coral is the only coral on the right side of the tank, everything else, is to the left. This is due to never having a LPS before, and understanding the sweepers can stretch quite far. <And chemicals further> My biggest question is referring to the leathers. With this small of a tank, do you foresee an issue with the leathers and the newly added LPS? <Could be... and all can be discounted with "acclimation" processes...> Also from reading, it seems the colt may also prove a threat to the leathers. I'm wondering if with the amount of carbon I run, and with the frequent water changes, do you believe they would be likely to thrive together? <Only time can/will tell> Otherwise, I will have to get rid of the leathers, which would be unfortunate, since they have taken nicely to the tank, and are now attached to the larger pieces of live rock in my tank. Your advise <advice> would be greatly appreciated. Marc <Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt.htm and the linked files above... elsewhere on WWM re the families compatibility... Bob Fenner> Re: More re: Chrysiptera talboti--corals for biotope? 1/16/08 Thank you very much, everyone. I actually did read the article on WWM beforehand, which is what inspired me to get C. talboti, since they were recommended so highly. The article said to allow at least 15 gallons per damsel, so I hoped 6 might be OK. I've provided lots of live rock for hiding places and they seem to be co-existing peacefully so far...I will keep an eye on them for any developing territorial conflicts. <Ah, good... Is a delightful little fish for sure!> Re the Sarcophyton elegans, the specimens I have were fragged from a wild-collected specimen about 6 or 8 months ago. <Ahh! Much better chance for survival than wild-collected> So far they seem to be doing well, at least as far as my inexpert eyes can see--polyps out and they've grown larger--but I will monitor them carefully. If I decide to go with a biotope I'll find them another home, since SPS and Alcyoniidae are probably not a safe mix. <If done... by mixing/introduction... blending water during acclimation/isolation over a period of weeks... starting with small specimens/colonies, widely spaced... the use of GAC, perhaps ozone... can be done> Thanks so much for the information on the C. talboti habitat. That's exactly what I was looking for. Cheers, and enjoy the long weekend! <Thank you. Bob Fenner> "> <<Mmm, I've (RMF) seen them this Chrysiptera sp. many times throughout its range... and wrote a survey article re its use that is posted on WWM... Does live solitarily... principally amongst arborose Pocilloporids and Acropora spp. mostly on shallow reef slopes... I don't think six of these are going to fit comfortably in a s 75 gallon system.>> > > Hi, folks. I've recently acquired six gorgeous little Talbot's damsels and have been looking for information on how to set up my 75G reef tank as a biotope for them. The only problem is, I can't find any specific information on the kind of habitat they're found in. The sources I've consulted say, at the most, that they are found among SPS and LPS corals and "coral-rich areas", but don't say *which* corals those are. > I'm hoping that one of you kind people here has seen C. talboti while diving--in Fiji especially--and can tell me what their habitat looks like. > I've checked Flickr, Photobucket, and YouTube, and done countless image searches, but all the images I can find are close-ups of the fish themselves, without revealing much about their surroundings. I have several nice frags of Sarcophyton elegans in the tank right now; would these be accurate, do you think (I know they're not stony corals)? Thanks for helping a slightly obsessive biotoper with her research! > K. Gabriel" Soft Coral tank 01/12/09 Hello, I was wondering why some of the my soft Corals shed so much. I have inquired here before regarding my Toadstool and although it is o.k. it seems to want to shed a lot along with another Toadstool I have and my Cabbage Coral. Here is what I have in Corals;2 Toadstools (one Brown, one blond) Green star polyps (growing like crazy), I colony of Brown button polyps (open, but not in full "bloom") 1 Colt coral (always looks good, full and tall), 1 Cabbage coral (on one rock but two colonies, assorted mushrooms (doing well, spreading). I have 4 HO T5 lights, 2 actinic and 2 10,000k plus 2 PowerBrite strips (nice shimmer). Mag = 1280-1320, Calc = 400-420, Alk = 9-10 dKH, Temp = 80 degrees and SG = .025 <Salinity would be better at closer to 1.026.> I guess the two main concerns I have is about the Toadstools and Cabbage, especially the Cabbage. The Cabbage has a pattern of half of it shuts down to shed and the other half looks beautiful then the beautiful bunch closes down and the other bunch finishes shedding and looks great. This goes on CONSTANTLY. It is well over 1 year old and is spreading (but not like I have heard it would) and there is new growth. The Toadstools are shedding every 1-2 weeks. <wow> I inquired earlier about toxins and have added Chemipure elite but that didn't seem to change anything. I have a skimmer in the sump and all parameters are good. What would be your assessment of the constant shedding and any remedy is appreciated. <Interesting... well, leathers tend to shed to rid themselves of external irritants. Do you have any algae or other corals stepping up onto their space? Best, Sara M.> Re: Soft Coral Tank 01/13/09 No offense Sara but I did not purposely mention that nothing is bothering them as I thought anyone responding would not give such a simplistic answer. Of course, there all type of people and some may overlook a simple thing like crabs walking over them, however that does not explain the constant shedding. I took painstaking effort to describe my issues if someone else could give me a more useful explanation of what may be going on in the tank it would be appreciated. <Good Sir/Madam-- I'm sorry if my answer to your question did not give you enough information. Shedding once every 1 to 2 weeks is just not all that unusual for Toadstool leathers (i.e for Sarcophytons). These leathers just seem to shed more for some reason. Thus, I just don't think you need to worry about the Toadstools. As for the Cabbage coral, it sounds to me like you have two individuals that have grown together and are now "stuck" together, something like "Siamese twins." This might likely explain why they are shedding all the time. One of the corals might be constantly trying to outgrow or shed off the other one. They're stuck together and irritating each other and both trying to shrug/shed off the other, which ends up actually slowing them both down since they're "wasting" so much energy shedding. This explanation is what makes the most sense to me. However, I didn't want to say this was the case until you confirmed for me that there weren't any other obvious irritants. The irritants aren't always things we can see (they can be chemical too). I hope I've given you enough information now. If someone else would like to add to my input here, they are welcome to. Best, Sara M.> Re: Somethings nibbling my Sarcophyton! Further 5/29/08 Salutations!! <Well received!> I promised Bob a follow up so here it is - it was definitely my Emperor Angelfish. I moved the Rhodactis and it was still happening to the corals, I kept watching them closely and then I caught him in the act nibbling the underside of one!! <Ah ha!> All Sarco's have now been removed and taken to my LFS. I have a lovely Galaxia and some Monti's/ Acro's in quarantine now as replacements - all of the corals in my tank that have small polyps and also the ones that have powerful nematocysts are all doing really well, the fish don't bother them at all, so I am pretty confident that these new ones will be fine as well!! Kindest Regards, Simon, England <Thank you for this update Simon. BobF> Devils hand leather... comp. 04/15/2008 Hi <<Hello, Andrew this evening>> I currently have a 28gl reef with a Rena FilStar xp2 filter, one Coralife 50/50 90wat pc bulb, and a SeaClone 100 protein skimmer but will soon upgrade to a remora nano, 30/40 pounds of LR and a 3 and a half inch DSB. I have no coral but want to run a soft/stony mix tank, I have picked coral which I am fairly certain will work well together but am unsure of the aggressiveness of devils hand leathers, some sites say they wont cause any trouble and others say that they can kill stonies. Are they aggressive? <<These will require some room between itself and other corals, yes, stony corals, as this will be toxic>> Because of the small size of my tanks if it exudes toxins any other stonies will be effected so I don't wont to keep it if it will harm my other stonies. Can you suggest another leather with similar look, care requirements, size that will not harm stonies? <<I would tend to stay away from this coral with your tank confines and stocking plan as adequate room around the coral would be needed. As an alternative, another suggestion would be Capnella SP. I don't class these as posing a threat to stony corals, however, its presence will be know. Housed these together with success myself>> Thanks <<Thanks for the questions. Hope this helps. A Nixon>> Sinularia flexibis, hlth./comp. - 03/18/08 I added a large healthy Sinularia Flexibis (spaghetti coral) from LiveAquaria to a 90g reef tank (other coral inhabitants: brown toadstool mushroom coral (Sarcophyton sp.), green toadstool mushroom, (Sarcophyton sp.), Ricordea mushrooms, other assorted mushrooms, pipe organ coral. While the spaghetti coral is thriving, the soft leathers (Sarcophyton) are not; they have retracted their tentacles and appear 'slimy,' 'flat' and 'collapsed/closed'. <It's probably that you have too many different types of soft corals and leathers in the same tank. Exactly how many is too many? I honestly couldn't tell you. We usually don't find out until something starts suffering.> (I have rearranged so as to modify light and water flow conditions to no avail. They are additionally often covered in the sweeper tentacles that extend from the spaghetti coral at night (Very long webbed strings that can extend half the length of the tank) that have presumably broken off on it. Are such sweeper tentacles deleterious to the health of the (soft) corals <likely so, to some degree or another> - or are my concerns misguided such that I should instead be looking for some other potential problem (everything tests out fine so I am thoroughly perplexed by the change in condition). <These animals produce all kinds of chemicals and toxins, it's often impossible to predict exactly how one coral will affect all others under a given set of circumstances. But generally, this sounds like an allelopathic problem of some sort to me.> Additionally, a change in location of the leathers is not thought possible given the size of the tank and rock wall positioning - and in any event, unless perhaps placed on tank's bottom where lighting may not be sufficient, all locales likely within reach of such long string-like protrusions from the spaghetti (if that is in fact what is causing the disturbance). <This could very well be the case (especially if they are mesenterial filaments).> Note: a frogspawn introduced at same time as spaghetti also died - <LPS corals are thought to be especially vulnerable to leather coral toxins.> although I suspect the butterfly may have picked at it sufficiently (have been conscientious in selecting coral species that would not be harmed by the butterfly - <Good start, but the next step is to think more carefully about selecting corals that will not harm each other. At this point, the only advice I can give you (aside from removing the S. flexibis) is to run a lot of activated carbon.> this was a surprise to me, introduced based upon the advisement of a professional reef-keeper / maintenance person). Thanks! Mike <De nada, Sara M.> Toadstool problems... Allelopathic Potential
12/04/2007 Hello and thank you for all the great work and support
that WWM provides the community! <Hi Josh, Mich here and on behalf
of Bob and the rest of the crew you're welcome!> I recently was
given a toadstool as a gift from a local reefers tank. <Very
nice!> It appeared to be fine for the first week or so and then the
polyps stopped opening up. I assumed it was getting ready to slough
it's protective layer due to the stress of a new system, transport
etc. A day or two later it did shed it's layer, however it still
did not open up. <Sometimes it takes some time.> I noticed a
bristle worm exit an opening between the base of the stem and the live
rock but did not think too much of it at the time since I was under the
impression that bristleworms did not eat corals. <The majority do
not eat living coral tissue, but most will eat necrotic coral tissue,
which may be what this guy was doing.> Should I be concerned about
the worm? <It is unlikely that this is a cause and effect
situation.> A week later it shed again and now some of the polyps
are opening up, <Ahhh, good to hear.> they are not extending as
far but it seems everyday that more polyps open and they extend a
little farther. <Very good!> The thing that has me concerned now
is that there is a brownish crust moving up the stem of the coral.
<Perhaps algae?> I can see in parts where it is sloughing off,
<You might try to blow off this film with a turkey baster or even
direct a powerhead towards this area.> the coral itself is standing
erect and I think it has plenty of flow. In fact I moved it once
because I thought it had too much flow. I have a Koralia #2 pushing
flow around it plus a Maxijet 1200 agitating the water surface above it
and the output of my sump is above it also. <OK.> Tank params:
45-gallon reef with a Megaflow 2 sump (bioballs removed). Aquamedic
TurboFlotor 1000 inside the sump. I get some nasty black skim material
in the collection cup, I empty it 2-3 times a week. <Good.>
36" Nova Extreme T5 lighting Two Maxijet 1200's on a wave
maker Koralia #2 Nitrites 0 Ammonia 0 Nitrates 10 PH 8.4 Alk 1.8
<Low, 2.5 - 3.5 meq/L is desirable.> Salinity 1.025 Temp 78.4 deg
I had about 45 pounds of live rock and just added another 20 pounds of
rock from an old reefers tank that had been sitting in his garage for
two years ( I soaked the rocks for several days before adding). All the
other corals are doing great (xenia, shrooms, Colt leather, frogspawn,
Kenya trees, Favia moon, Zoanthids, Cabbage leather, and some GSP.
<Holy allelopathy Batman! You have some big players in the games of
chemical warfare! Hope you running carbon and changing it frequently!
More here: http://www.reefkeepingfever.com/article1.htm > I have
some hermits and snails along with three peppermint shrimp that
devastated the Aiptasia! <YAY!> For fish I have a six-line
wrasse, <OK.> flame Hawkfish, <And you still have shrimp,
hermit crabs and snail? Not likely for long! More here:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/682.htm > and a blue
lined Midas Blenny. <OK.> Should I just give it some more time I
cannot find pics of toadstools with that brown stuff on the stalk,
however it does not feel necrotic, although I guess I am not sure what
it feels like, but the stalk is firm not mushy. <Doesn't sound
necrotic to me.> Thanks so much in advance! <Welcome! Mich>
Josh
Re: Corals... or what have you... Alcyoniid allelopathy... more reading 10/25/07 "I have a 55 gallon reef tank with a 22 gallon fuge, Remora Protein skimmer, 2 power heads hooked to a wavemaker, 100Ibs of live rock. Tank has 4 fish-crabs, snails, 1 coral banded shrimp, and a cucumber. Corals include 1 open brain coral, 1 candy cane coral, 1 zoo, 2 colonies of mushrooms, and 1 leather coral. Lights are 260 watt power compacts which run 10 hours on daylight and 12 hours on actinic. I test for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate-all read OPM. PH, Calcium, ALK, Gravity, all within parameters. I dose 1 gallon of Lime water daily for evaporation. The tank has been up for 3 years. I do 5 gallon water changes weekly, using ro purified water. All fish and inverts are thriving. Coralline algae spreading like crazy. The problem is the last 4 months there has been a slow decline in coral health. My brain which I fed every other day will no longer open up or feed. 1 colony of mushrooms are shriveled up. The zoos look dull and not fully expanded also. My candy cane coral-leather and other mushroom colony look healthy but have only been in my tank for around 4 months. I do not add trace elements or any other additive other then the lime water and weekly water changes, using instant ocean salt. Any suggestions would be appreciated. .... and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>" Thank you much for the excellent advice. I have removed the Sarcophyton and did 5 gallon water changes every day for a week. After two months my zoos and mushrooms look 100% better. Everything in my tank is doing great except for my Brain coral. It hasn't improved but hasn't gotten worse either. It is pale and won't open up. About once a week before the lights come on it will swell to triple in size. I attempt to feed it but it's not to eager to accept. Is there anything I can be doing to save this coral? Thanks again for everything. <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/trachydisfaq2.htm and the linked files above. BobF> Sinularia toxicity 10/21/07 Hi guys. Thanks for your time. I have a large Sinularia coral (approx. 9x9" height and diameter). I would like to know if this would be compatible with a Medusa coral. I have researched this in length, but due to the variety of Sinularia I can't find a specific answer. <If by Medusa coral you mean a Sphaerella sp. leather coral, then yes, I think it would be fine. You might be having trouble finding a definitive answer because coral allelopathy is hardly well understood even among the scientists who study it. What we are fairly sure of is that Sinularia sp. are toxic to many larger polyped stony corals (and possibly all stony corals to some extent or another). However, I don't know of any reason to be too concerned that leather corals are significantly toxic too each other.> As I understand it, Sinularia may stunt the growth of stony corals if it is predominant in the tank. <Yes, and sometimes even if it is not predominant.> Am I correct in thinking that if the two different corals are sited as far apart as possible, there would be little risk of the Medusa dying? <When it comes to allelopathy, distance doesn't always make a difference. This is chemical warfare. Since the toxic terpenoids are broadly released into the water, if the coral is toxic enough, sometimes even having it in a separate (but connected) tank still creates a problem. That said, the toxins will likely be the worst and most concentrated within the close vicinity of the toxic coral. Thus, in some cases, keeping the corals far apart can help (running activated carbon also helps). In any case, I don't think you have to worry about the Sinularia sp. hurting another leather coral in this way. The following links might have some additional useful information: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alcyoncompfaqs.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alcyonselfaqs.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/softcrlsysfaqs.htm> I have only soft corals, polyps and mushrooms in my tank, so I have no practical experience of this. However, I am also aware that Sinularia can grow quickly in the right conditions. I would hate to lose a stony coral out of ignorance! <A stony coral? Hmmm, I'm sorry I'm not familiar with any stony coral with the common name "medusa coral." But if you're thinking of putting any LPS stony coral in with a Sinularia sp., please think twice. It's usually not worth the risk. Even if the stony coral doesn't die, it may suffer in other ways.> Thanks again. Abi <De nada, Sara M.> Cynarina incompatible with Sarcophytons? Likely so 10/16/07 Hello! And thanks in advance. <Welcome> Four months ago I added a Scolymia and two Cynarina to an established 75 gallon tank. 360 watts compact fluorescent, water good except for a tendency of Ca to fall to around 350, KH sometimes down a bit also. I have torches, shrooms, a pearl, Montipora, octocorals, <Of what sort, species?> frogspawns, all of which have been doing great. I feed the corals live brine shrimp and raw shrimp with Selcon once a week or every 10 days. Also have two Sarcophytons. <Mmmm> The Scolymia is doing fine, however, the Cynarina have slowly been going downhill for at least two months now. Both the Scolymia and cyans are in the same part of the tank, same current & light and not close to any other corals, so I'm starting to really wonder what might be going on. The only thing I can think of is the water quality (which I've been working on) or perhaps not enough feeding, but it seems that Scolymia would be suffering also. <Not necessarily, no> Eric Borneman mentions in passing in one of his books that there's some anecdotal reports that Cynarina and leathers are incompatible, with the cyans getting the worst of the deal. Do you if there's any truth to that? <Yes> I used to have some xenias which did well for a year, but then cashed in the chips when I got a leather. I've seen been told that xenias can't deal with leathers, which I can well believe.... Thanks, Mark <Am going to make this theme... cnidarian allelopathy... methods of reducing, avoiding, my "pitch" topic for 08's club get togethers. Alcyoniids of this genus are trouble in small/er systems... Large water changes, the use of GAC, better skimming... might help here... but if the Sarcophytons are large... they are very likely producing enough terpenoids to poison Cynarina. Bob Fenner> Re: Chromis Compatibility 9/4/07 Good day Bob and Crew, Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my e-mail. <Am glad to share with you Mike> (wouldn't you know, I just found my original Blood shrimp K.O.'d lying on the sand. Dead shrimp #2. I think I might need to find a new home for that $%^&* Hawkfish, however, this is not the reason for this e-mail) <Cirrhitids and shrimps do not mix> As you have put my mind at ease regarding my original question / concern, you have put another question in my mind with one of your remarks, which I know by now you do not make without reason. When I mentioned that I had "a few Leathers", you wrote "<Mmm... Alcyoniids are large producers of biologically important molecules...>" <Yes... sorry for the interjections... from lingua Latina meaning to throw in-between> I have, according to my LFS, two different "Finger Leathers" (although if one is a "Finger" leather, the other should be called a "Hand" leather), and I have an Umbrella. <What is this last?> I did some searching on-line to try to figure out what you meant by your remark, however, I think I might still be missing the point. Would you mind explaining the significance of that remark, or perhaps, point me in the right direction? I would like to make sure I understand it correctly. Thank you Mike <I do apologize for the lack of completion, clarity. I am/was referring to this family of soft corals (Alcyonaceans) propensity for production of mostly terpenoids... and their capacity for mal-affecting the behavior and physiology of mostly other cnidarians. Please read here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alcyoncompfaqs.htm Bob Fenner>
Sinularia vs. Tridacna Clam 4/1/07 Hi,
<Hello.> Have you ever known of a sinularia to bother any type of
clams??? <No However I would be sure that the growth of the
sinularia does not impede upon the direct source of light needs by the
Tridacna, and that the sinularia does not come into direct contact with
the clam...which would keep the mantle from properly extending.> I
know to keep it away from most LPSs, but am curious if it can or will
hurt a clam. <See above.> Thanks <Of course.> Barbara
Zoanthids, Leathers, allelopathy - 1/22/07 Hey you guys are amazing. <Thank you for this, Kyle. Is greatly appreciated.> My Question is about Zoas. My 30-gallon tank has been running for about 3 years and I just started coral maybe 3 months ago. <Ok> I just started slowly with 2 small Acro frags and a small colony of green Zoas. <Acroporids are typically considered among the harder to care for, especially for coral beginners.> Everything was thriving the zoas looked amazing. I since purchased 2 more colonies of zoas and some leather. now its been 2 weeks and none of the Zoas will come out. <Allelopathy from your leathers, too likely. Most leathers are quite noxious. Have a look here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alcyoniids.htm and the linked files above.> They just stay tightened up all day. I have a 15 gallon sump, 250W Metal halide lights, and a run of the mill protein skimmer. My tanks stats are 8.4 PH, 310 cal (I know its low but I have been adding in Kents calcium increaser 3 times a week and I can't get it to move). <You don't mention your alkalinity measurement here. Your calcium usage may be as high as you see, or it could be that threes a mild imbalance here. Read through here for more information: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/calcalkmar.htm > I use R.O water and nothing has changed sense I have put in the new coral. I am just wondering if this new coral could affect my exciting coral. If so ill just remove the new Zoas because the older ones are much nicer? Thanks VERY MUCH Kyle Banks <Well, Kyle, zoanthids have been known to compete with each other on occasion as well, though when this is the case, it is typified by the winner being open and vibrant typically. I do believe your leathers are the cause here. -JustinN> Clams and Alcyoniids 1/16/07 Hey again guys. I have a question about Tridacnid and Alcyoniid compatibility. I've heard that allelopathy between Scleractinians and Alcyoniids can be really nasty with the stonies usually losing out and growing slower, but would the same happen with a clam? <Not that I'm aware of... they're sometimes found immediately adjacent in the wild> They are sort of "stony." <Mmmm, these corals? Not so much... ones a Hex, the other an Octo-corallian...> I know the clam can't fight back the same way stonies can, but would the presence of, say, a toadstool leather end up badly for a clam? thanks for the help. <All else being semi-equal (wonder where I'm getting this from...) I don't think there's reason for concern here... Good maintenance, enough lighting and food for all... should save the day. BobF> Maroon Clown Hosting to a Toadstool? 12/12/06 <Greetings! Mich with you this evening.> Is this possible? I guess anything is possible, but I don't know if my clown is trying to host or just being annoying. <Yes, tis possible.> The clown previously hosted in a Condi at the LFS, that is what I was told when I bought him. I brought him home and he is first one in the tank (70gal SW Reef w/100lbs LR and 80lbs LS and CC). He was in there by himself for about a month then we added a lawnmower blenny and a dragon goby, he did fine with them. Then we added a yellow tang and a sailfin tang. <The Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens) should be OK in your tank, but the long term the Sailfin (Zebrasoma veliferum) can get over a foot long.> Everybody was happy for about 2 weeks and then now the clown is getting in the middle of the toadstool (while it is open) and shaking his tail in there like crazy, of course then the toadstool is closing up. Since yesterday the clown seemed to be guarding the outside of the toadstool but didn't go in it, just shaking his tail in the sand near it. Is this hosting behavior and do we need to see how the Toadstool takes it or get one of them out of there quick? <Yes this is hosting behavior. Keep an eye on the Toadstool, and see how it does. It may accept the behavior with time. But if it stops opening all together or starts withering away, it is time to take action. In the meantime, enjoy the process.> Please help, thanks. GG <Hope that helps. -Mich> Problem with Metallic Green Star Polyps!!! 10/1/06 WWM Crew, <Tristan> I have encountered a few problems with my star polyps and I was wondering if you could help by providing me with some advice. I recently (2 months ago) added a rock of some metallic green star polyps to my aquarium. For the first 6 weeks, all was great. The individual polyps all fully extended and waved freely in the water column - I even noticed the polyp colony expanding onto the nearby rock. They certainly looked healthy. Then I decided to introduce some white finger leather <Here it is> and mushrooms. Since their introduction (2 weeks ago) the polyps now all fail to extend. I have read your site and acted on the advice you have given others. I have checked the water parameters, which appear fine, I have blasted a powerhead over the polyps (to clear of diatom algae), I have varied the polyps position in the tank. However, the polyps still appear to hide. I don't have any fish - just a 55 gallon aquarium 1/3 filled with live rock and some soft corals (rock of mushrooms, finger leather, toadstool). Do you have any idea what the problem could be? Any help would be much appreciated. All the best, Tristan <Allelopathy in a word. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alcyoncompfaqs.htm and the linked files above... there are a few things one can do to lessen the effects... most extremely separating these incompatible cnidarians. Bob Fenner> Deteriorating Toadstool...Noxious Corals in a Nano Tank - 09/14/06 Good afternoon Crew! <<Morning here...Hello!>> Hope you're enjoying this beautiful fall afternoon! I'm writing today with a concern about my toadstool leather. I've attached a previous email that describes my set up. <<Thanks for the background info>> Everything is the same, except I've finally conquered the hair algae battle!! :-) <<Yay!>> I didn't think that the day would ever come! <<Can/does usually take time...and perseverance>> My concern is this. About 2 weeks ago, the leather shed its waxy coating as normal. (It usually does this about once every 5-7 days.) Then the day after it shed, the tentacles retracted and it shed again the next day. Then it repeated this again 2 days later. <<Mmm...would seem something has gotten in to the water and is irritating the toadstool. Any new livestock additions?>> Since then (it has been about 5 days now, the tentacles are still retracted. <<That's not a good sign>> And I've noticed a difference in the texture of the coral. The coral used to have slightly concave areas where the tentacles retract into. Now the areas are convex (like little bumps) and very white instead of being the same shade as the rest of the coral. I have also noticed that the entire coral has changed a bit in color. It is now slightly grayish. <<Another "not good" sign>> I've done 2 large water changes (each about 25%) over the last several days & I've changed my Chemi-Pure out for a new batch thinking maybe a bit of allelopathy was to blame here. <<Indeed...but have you also done tests for all the "usual" culprits? (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)>> But none of the other corals seem to be suffering any. <<Maybe just "not yet">> My zoas are fully open & the xenia is pulsing away as always. <<Hmm, how "close" are these zoanthids to the toadstool?>> One other thing, the stalk seems to have developed a "crease" and is a bit folded over. <<Yes...the coral is declining and starting to collapse>> I'm wondering if I need to frag below the crease & hope that it regenerates itself, or do I do nothing and hope for the best? <<Any "fragging" would need to be done from the "crown" for much hope in propagating/saving a piece of this coral (but you could try if you wish). Might be best to observe/remove if the deterioration worsens>> If I need to frag it back, that presents yet another problem. It has attached itself to several large rocks which are all epoxied together. <<Possibly a moot point here>> I'm not sure if I can remove it?! Otherwise I would have quarantined it by now. (I have photos but they don't seem to go through when I try to email them. I think that the firewall on my server chucks these out.) Thanks in advance for your input. -Jaime <<Keep an eye on the toadstool and remove immediately if it worsens/starts to "come apart" to preclude further poisoning of your system. I also suggest you try to determine the core reason for this incident...do water tests, review your stock placement/density//compatibility, etc. I truly suspect the fact this is a 12g "nano" system stocked with noxious soft corals is the reason for your troubles. Regards, EricR>> Green Star Polyps touching large leather 8/25/06 Good morning crew, < Good morning! > Thanks for a great website. < Bob and the crew do a wonderful job, don't they? > Just a quick question. I have a 75 gallon reef tank doing really well. A colony of Green Star Polyps has grown enough to come in contact with the trunk of a large leather coral. Is this cause for concern? < Not a serious threat, yet. > Will the leather suffer from this contact? < Eventually, the star polyp may encroach to the point of becoming a bother. You may want to place small pieces of rock on or around the star polyp, then remove the fragments as they get too close. > There is no contact with the crown, only the trunk. < While it stays on the trunk, the star polyp will try to overpower the leather, try to remove all edges that are in contact. It is not a real issue yet, but if left unchecked, it may become one soon! > Thanks for your help... < Anytime, RichardB > Ralph Coral Toxicity/Mixed Reefs - 08/01/06 Hello to all. <<Good Morning>> It's been a while since I bothered the crew with a question, but here I am again. <<No bother...is why we are here>> I am somewhat puzzled by issues relating to the toxicity of leathers to other corals in the tank. <<Nothing to be puzzled about...leather corals (Alcyoniids) are some of the most noxious organisms on the reef>> As I understand it, Sinularia is the culprit (or just main culprit?) here. <<Not limited to just this species, most all leather corals should be considered>> Is it correct to assume that Sarcophyton does not cause the same harm? <<No...is also an Alcyoniid>> Are stony corals the only type potentially harmed? <<No again...cnidarians may possibly be more easily affected/less resistant to the chemical poisoning, but leather corals can and do affect/kill other leather corals>> And are all stony corals potentially harmed or just certain ones? <<Potentially all>> We have a 40 gal. reef tank, and have both of the mentioned leathers. We also have a bubble coral, a torch, and a button coral, along with other polyps and various mushrooms. <<Don't discount the potential for harm from the mushrooms and polyp corals. Corallimorphs are right up there with the nastiest leather corals in terms of toxicity/ability to "burn" stony corals. And if the "polyps" are Palythoa, they pose certain hazard to not only the corals but also to the aquarist (try a Google search on the keyword 'Palytoxin')>> We do a 4 gal. water change weekly and water parameters are fine. <<Ah yes, the frequent (weekly) water changes are a good method for diluting the chemicals released by the corals. Supplemental chemical filtration in the form of carbon and/or Poly-Filter will also help>> Within the tank the leathers are not close to the stony corals, but obviously, it's a small tank. <<They know they are there, yes. Anthony Calfo recommends a minimum spacing of about 10" between corals, and even then "pruning" will likely be required as the corals grow. But even then, allelopathy (chemical warfare on the reef) is being waged>> Even with the frequency of the water changes, is it just not possible to keep everybody healthy? <<Mmm, can be done. How successful you'll be depends on your stocking density and your attention to good husbandry/maintenance>> I wish we had been more aware of this issue before setting up the tank, but we understood (more accurately, misunderstood) the problem to be more one of providing adequate space between the corals within the tank. <<Indeed...the challenges of keeping a "mixed garden variety" type reef tank. Much better in my opinion for aquarists to choose a particular niche on the reef to replicate...keeping specimens of a particular species, or family of corals even, greatly increases chances for "long term" success>> If we were doing it over now, we would specialize in a tank this small. In any event, now that we have what we have, is it possible for everything to thrive if we're conscientious about frequency of water changes? <<For a time, but the leather corals will rapidly outgrow/outpace the stony corals. You might be able to keep things in check by pruning back the leathers, but eventually you may decide it's time to "specialize">> Thanks so much for any input/thoughts. This site is so unbelievably helpful. Laura <<Happy to assist. Regards, EricR>> Re: Coral Toxicity/Mixed Reefs II - 08/01/06 Thanks so much for the response and the information, Eric. <<My pleasure Laura>> As answers often do, these prompt more questions. <<Indeed...please proceed>> Are you saying that mushrooms burn stony corals? <<I am...very aggressive. Mushrooms have the capacity to spread among/over stony corals, eventually killing them>> I have a button coral right by some red and green fluorescent mushrooms (Actinodiscus), for instance - thinking I was putting them someplace safe, well away from the leathers. Sigh. <<You're not alone in this belief. Many hobbyists seem to be under the illusion that these organisms are "benign"...not the case. Couple their innocuous appearance (small single body mass, lack of apparent stinging tentacles) with the fact they are "pushed" in the hobby as "starter" corals for new marine aquarists, and you have a formula for disaster in many cases. I have seen tanks where these organisms literally "took over"...much like an invasive terrestrial plant...though be aware, this behavior is not limited to corallimorphs. I advise you to "make some space" around the mushrooms, and if necessary, take measures to control their spread>> As for the polyps, I have just starburst polyps, Pachyclavularia. <<Ah...thank you for the clarification..."polyps" can be many things>> I did the Google search you suggested for palytoxin, but not sure which species are included in Palythoa. <<Often sold under the common name "Button Polyps"...mostly green or brown varieties. Sometimes even mislabeled as "zooanthids">> Any further guidance - say, to just getting a bowl and a goldfish? <<Ha! Not necessary my friend (and actually, that brings up another misnomer/problem in the hobby...but that's for a different category). No need to be "frightened" from keeping these magnificent organisms, just understand (learn) what they are about. Most everything on the reef is fighting for a spot/room to propagate, and most all have developed methods/very formidable weapons to accomplish this. Putting these animals in the confines of a closed system serves to multiply the issues of toxicity and aggression...but can be successfully dealt with where forethought to their care/requirements/compatibility is given. I am an advocate of biotope or species specific systems...but many, many hobbyists have systems just as yours and honestly, they can be/are quite beautiful when the correct "balance" is struck>> Laura <<Be chatting. EricR>> Re: Leathers, allelopathy in general 6/27/06 Bob, <Scott> For our type of system what sort of regime would you recommend to combat said allelopathy? I'm not a huge fan of carbon because I can't tell when it's cashed. Would running PolyFilters or Purigen on them constantly be sufficient? <Mmm, not really... or more accurately, not to my satisfaction. How to start here... Best to have very large (how big?) systems, begin with small colonies, cuttings, of "less noxious" species, groups, and have "grow up together"... being diligent re water changes, cleaning skimmer/s... other aspects of maintenance... and settle on not adding much at later dates...> Is there a way to scientifically or approximately determine the toxicity of a particular coral? <Very good questions... as gauged by my inability to proffer reasonable, complete responses... There are some groups... e.g. Zoanthids... that are near the top of such a "toxicity scale"... and a further example, amongst corals, Oculinids (e.g. Galaxea), Catalaphyllia which are "high" on such a rating... but no "ReDox" or KH/KOH scale equivalent as far as I'm aware. Perhaps someone will chime in seeing this posted... Maybe you could/would query Eric Borneman, Anthony Calfo re...> It all seems so vague, makes it difficult to sell and stock appropriately. <I concur> Sure I can read that a coral is "mildly toxic" or "extremely toxic" - but what does that really mean to me - or the person who wants to buy it and is wondering if it will go well with their other corals? <Wish I could refer folks to more science here. Biotopic approaches with organisms collected "with" as in "right there" would be ideal (this is not likely to happen in any short while)... Keeping "all softies", "no anemones", "SPS" only... is one approach... Being careful to introduce only one or a few small pieces/colonies at a time, after isolating/quarantining them, perhaps mixing water twixt their systems is of advantage...> When you have a Trigger that runs over and bites a Clownfish in half it's easy to learn from that and say "Well gosh, guess we won't do that again". It's not so easy when it's some random mushroom rock oozing out a bunch of toxins to take out some random leather in the tank below. Do you have any suggestions for getting a better grasp of different levels of allelopathy? Scott <I strongly suspect there is more known re these issues... in the scientific press... Or a fount of possibilities for an erstwhile investigator/writer to pursue. Bob Fenner> Cabbage leather out of control - 05/13/2006 I recently bought a cabbage leather who is doing well otherwise, however it seems to have killed 1 hermit and 1 snail (I find them dead on the cabbage itself). Do I need to get rid of it? (I don't want to, but will) I did search found to be semi-aggressive (towards other coral), but nothing relating to hermits/snails...please help. Thank you as always...Colleen <<Colleen: Corals don't normally kill crabs or snails because they are not in competition with them for the same sorts of foods or living space. I have a smaller one and I have never had a problem with it. Since there are many types of corals commonly named "cabbage", can you send us a picture? That way we can better identify your specific species and whether or not there is any knowledge of them being toxic to crabs and snails. It would also help to know what type of snails you have. Best of luck, Roy>> As Anthony Would Put It: The Mixed Reef Garden - 05/13/2006 Hey gang, <Marc...> I have a 120 gallon reef tank and I am interested to know if it would be possible to keep a mushroom leather in the tank with SPS corals such as acropora and Montipora. <Not a good mix long term.> I have a majority of LPS corals already. Are there any tricks to do this and still have some success <In the short term, chemical filtration and carbon can help.> or should I just bite the bullet and go for a SPS dominated tank. <Your choice but not both.> Also do the toxins released by the softies have any impacts on the fish in the tank <None of concern.> <<Mmm, actually... can be of great concern. RMF>> as well as the corals? Thanks <Anytime.> Marc <Adam J.> Toadstool Leather Bleaching My Ricordea? - 05/10/2006 I have a 75 gal tank, about 4 months old with excellent water parameters (Nitrates Zero), weekly water changes, large growth of Coralline, 20 gal sump with Chaeto refugium, good water circulation, 500 watt MH, skimmer going full throttle with a light bioload and no fish as of yet. One month ago I placed a Ricordea yuma rock at the bottom of my tank with good results. Opened nicely, with some vibrant red beginning to emerge through the green. Then, last week, I added a aquacultured Toadstool leather (Sarcophyton) and then began to notice some bleaching (incompletely) of the Ricordea and it's not opening up as well as it was. I know these leathers can produce all kinds of toxin-like chemicals. Any thoughts? < Although the Sarcophytons can and will emit toxins, I don't think this is the cause of the Ricordea issues. Yuma's are notorious for acting this way especially the red varieties. > Should I move the Ricordea farther away... or higher in the water column?? < I normally place these anemones at the bottom of the tank; save the prime real estate for animals who are more demanding in regards to light. > Trade it in before it gets worse? < That may only serve to advance the situation. > Or just be patient and wait it out. < Very good idea!> My other corals, a small Euphyllia torch and a Zoanthid frag are doing fine. Thanks. < I only hope I was of some help. RichardB > Russell in KY Sarcophyton leather toadstool (and the near death of my tank) - 04/16/06 Hello, <Hi, Leslie here with you today> Maybe I'm an idiot but I learned a important lesson this week, thought it would be a good idea to share this with people. <I doubt that . Admitting and sharing our mistakes so others can benefit from them is a very honorable gesture. Thank you! > I took my leather toadstool out of the tank and thought I would propagate it by cutting it in half. Well when I cut it open a massive amount of " juice " came out (no big deal) I rinsed it off with saltwater and put it back into my tank. Well within 5 minutes my fish were going nuts, my Kole tang turned so pale he was almost white and was instantly covered with spots, my Clownfish was breathing very heavy, my Bubble Tip Anemone looked completely dead and my finger leather closed completely. Needless to say I freaked out and did a quick search on Sarcophyton being toxic to fish, yup found out the extract can kill your fish in 30 minutes. I quickly went to the LFS I work at (no one that works there knew this was a deadly procedure) and picked up 15 gallons (55 gallon tank) of water and did a quick water change (and dumped the toadstool). My bubble tip immediately looked completely normal, the fish resumed breathing normally and other than an ich outbreak everything was fine the next day. Anyway just wanted to let people know that if you are going to do something like this make sure you have a really good carbon filter that moves a lot of water quickly, and I would definitely not attempt doing cutting one up in your tank. Found it interesting that everything that I read about propagating a leather said nothing about it being toxic, found out that there are actually 50 toxic chemicals in a Sarcophyton leather toadstool (after the incident of course). Like I said, maybe I'm an idiot but I just wanted to get this out there so people don't repeat my mistake. <You made a mistake. I know for a fact you are not the first and you will not be the last. We all make mistakes. It seems to be the theme for today's queries. I have certainly made my fair share. An idiot most likely would not have acted as quickly as you did to resolve the problem. Your quick thinking and action hopefully saved the rest of the creatures in your tank. Fingers crossed that they recover from the ich. I don't do any propagating myself but most of the folks I know that do use separate propagation tanks.> Thanks. <Thank you for sharing your story. Best of luck with your tank, Leslie> Toadstool leather vs. Acropora... Like the U.S. and invading other sovereign nations... all losers - 04/05/2006 hi, I have a lg toadstool leather in my 75 gal with 20 gal refugium for 2 years. I added 3 Acroporas to my tank 3 months ago that has mostly hairy mushrooms. the 3rd purple Acropora was not getting enough current so I moved it close to the leather which I cannot move. when the toadstool opened up all the way it touched the purple Acropora. <...> it retracted it polyps and for 4 days it has not opened up. the top of it and sides have brown spots of film like alga. I moved the Acropora back to other side of tank. will the toadstool leather come back or is it dying? <... impossible to say from here> I added charcoal to the tank also. thanks. water parameters are P.H. 8.2,kh 11,cal 450. 0 on the others. lights 2x250 MH x 2 x65w p.c. actinic. 350g.p.h. protein skimmer, cal reactor co2, ,P.H. controller,1/3 h.p. chiller. <Please see WWM re Systems for these organisms, Compatibility (they're not)... fix your English before mailing us. Bob Fenner> Devils Hand coral 12/16/05 Hello to the crew at Wet Web, Is it a mistake to try and keep a Lobophytum sp. in a 46 gal bow front with SPS corals, LPS, soft corals (such as a Kenya tree) or polyps? Most of the corals I have bought so far are aquacultured and are quite small. I am trying to give everything enough space to grow and fill in. The Devils Hand that I got is a little bigger however. But it is a beautiful piece. Didn't know about the potential toxins until after I bought it. The description I got was that it is peaceful and some types of Lobophytum can release toxins. I assumed that from that description that this meant that the variety I was buying wouldn't. Then found out that it could. I already have 1 Acropora and 1 Montipora. I would rather get rid of the Devils Hand then get rid of the SPS corals. Should I take the gamble and see how everything does? Or is it wiser to get rid of the Devils Hand? One answer I received in the forums was that if I keep enough space between them that I shouldn't have a problem. How much space is enough? Especially in a 46 gallon? Is there any way to test for the toxins they release or do you just have to monitor everything? The first couple of days that it has been in my tank it already started to release a white slime? Thank you So much for any help you can give me. <The leather coral you have shouldn't cause any problems. As with all corals, maintain safe distances between them. James (Salty Dog)> Thanks Man <You're welcome> Leather Coral Irritated by Mushrooms? 12/5/05 I have a toadstool leather coral (Sarcophyton sp) that has had his polyps completely closed up for the last 5 or 6 days. <Not unusual.> I don't see any necrotic tissue or changes to his body, and none of the tank occupants have been picking on him. <Good signs.> The only change in the tank is that a small pink mushroom (quarter-sized) has grown to the point where it slightly brushes up against the base of the leather coral. Would this potentially be irritating the leather coral? <It may have initially, but shouldn't cause any problem long-term.> All other occupants of the aquarium (fish & corals) are doing well, and no recent changes have been observed in the water chemistry. <What about water flow, temperature, etc? Perhaps a splash with new water or fresh top-off water...> I realize many other issues could cause the leather coral to close up, but I wanted to know if the pink mushroom is a potential problem... <I doubt it. But if the leather doesn't open for 5-6 more days, consider moving the mushroom (don't move the leather or you won't see it open for even longer). Cheers, Zo> Thank you, Steve in Denver Toadstool Reaction to New Cnidarians' Presence, & Trying Hyposalinity Half-cocked 11/23/05 Hello, <Hi there> I have two unrelated questions, the first is regarding a small toadstool coral which has been in my 135 gal reef for about a month now. It was doing well until this last Saturday, when I received a large order (about 21 corals) which I purchased online. <... to go in a very large or a few systems I hope> Since then it has not expanded its polyps, and the cap has a 'shiny' appearance. There is no mucus layer or anything causing it, it just looks shiny when light glances off of it. It is not near any corals which have long sweeper tentacles. <Are near all chemically> The only corals within six inches of it are a Montipora, yellow Fiji leather, and Blastomussa wellsi, none of which could possibly be reaching it to sting it. I am beginning to wonder, however, if when I was placing my new corals I didn't happen to brush something up against it. The most likely candidate for this would have been a torch coral, which is on the same side of the tank, but about a foot away and at a different level in the tank. I also moved the coral about four or five inches, placing more closely under my MH lights, although I can't imagine this would cause it to stop expanding. Every other coral in the tank is doing fine, even those far less hardy than the toadstool, so clearly there is something wrong with it. If it was stung, will it likely recover? <... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompfaqs.htm> It certainly doesn't appear to be dying or falling apart, it just isn't expanding. Second question is regarding ich in my fish only tank. I am going to attempt using hyposalinity/increased temp exclusively to get rid of it. I am not going to be able, however, to put the live rock anywhere else (certainly not in my reef tank), and as I understand it this will kill off beneficial shrimp, mollusks, etc. My question is, will it leave the coralline algae and bacteria necessary for waste breakdown intact? <... likely not> If so I can always seed the tank in later with live sand and rock from my reef tank. Thanks, Frank Janes <Study a bit more Frank... re hyposalinity treatment, alcyoniid compatibility, behavior... All posted on WWM. Bob Fenner> Sweeper tentacles, soft corals, cabbage question Dear crew, <Richard> I have two separate cabbage corals in my tank, and both have recently been seen extending long, filamentous tentacles. In each case, the point of origin appears to be a pore-like opening on the very edge of the body. The tentacles resemble spider web in their size and appearance, and consist of a central thread, with numerous, regularly spaced threads coming off at a right angle to the main one. At the longest, I estimate them to be 22 inches long. <Yikes> My wife and I witnessed one of the cabbages snagging a ghost shrimp, and the shrimp was rapidly entangled in the tentacle, which retracted to draw the shrimp to the edge of the cabbage body. When we returned some four hours later, the shrimp had vanished. <Yes> The resident SW manager at the LFS told me quite definitively that such things don't happen in soft corals. After extensive Googling [if that's a verb] here and elsewhere, I have found no definitive information. Can you please shed some light here? Thanks, Rick <Yes... in the hobby press, these structures are broadly called "sweeper tentacles" and serve as both a defensive and feeding mechanism... Please read here: Marine Depot Newsletter - Aggression. Bob Fenner> Re: cabbage question Bob, Thanks for the reference---an excellent article. I was aware of sweeper tentacles, particularly in stony corals, but had been under the misimpression that they were for combative purposes. <Mostly, yes... resource partitioning> It didn't occur to me that they might be applied to a hunting purpose. I find it somewhat disappointing that I could be told so emphatically that such behaviour didn't exist. I have been well-served in this respect, though: another source of information has revealed itself to be one on which I should not depend. At least in this instance, it did not cost me money, or a creature its life. As always, a doffing of the snorkel, and my sincere thanks. Rick <Welcome. Bob Fenner> Leather Coral bitten? Hi--I have a 180 gallon reef tank with about 300 lbs of live rock, 1 yellow tang, 1 blue hippo tang, a flame angel, a harlequin Sweetlips, a royal Gramma, a firefish, a neon Dottyback, a lawnmower blenny, a six line wrasse, a cleaner wrasse, a marine Betta and two clown fish. I also have two skunkback cleaner shrimp and a coral banded shrimp. I have a number of corals and Ricordea, and recently purchased a beautiful yellow leather coral. I noticed what looked like a small featherduster-type of worm in an adjacent rock, and when the coral was fully open, it would cover the worm. I've had this coral about a month, and in the past week I've noticed it curling up where the worm is, and now that part looks a sickly brown. I moved the rock with the worm so they are no longer able to touch one another, but wondered if it is possible the worm stung the coral. My other corals look fine and water is good, including Ca. I have 600W of PC lighting. <Is possible... but not too likely... the very yellow Sarcophytons sold in the trade are semi-notoriously non-hardy... could be totally unrelated> Do you think the worm could have done something to the coral and what can I do? Thanks. R/Janet <You "did it" by moving the worm... otherwise, affording the Leather the best care.... Please read here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/alcyoniids.htm the linked files above... and elsewhere on WWM re polychaete worms, their compatibility, removal. Bob Fenner> Help with soft corals in a mixed reef Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:31:58 -0500 <Hello Aaron, James (Salty Dog) here to try and help.>I have a 90g mixed reef. The basic setup is: 48x18x24 glass tank, 20g long sump. Aquaclear 900 return pump, ASM G200 skimmer, 2 250 watt heaters, and 3 powerheads on a wave timer (400, 270, and 170 gph). Lighting consists of (1) 14kK 400 watt bulb, (1) 20kK 175 watt bulb, (1) Actinic 03 VHO and (1) 50/50 VHO (these are 110w ea.). There is 145 lbs of live rock and a 2-3" sugar sand bed. Tank is about 1 year old. Invertebrate inhabitants are: 30+ colonies and frags of assorted Acropora and Montipora 2 colonies of mixed zoanthids 1 Platygyra brain coral 1 Polyphyllia coral 1 Fungia coral 2 small Blastomussa colonies 1 large brown star polyp colony 1 Sinularia finger leather 1 very small toadstool (remnants of one I removed a few months back) Assorted clean-up crew members (margarita, Astrea, and Trochus snails, asst. hermits, peppermint shrimp) 1 Tiger Pistol Shrimp Fish: 1 Blue Hippo Tang 1 Neon Goby 1 Yellow watchman goby (paired w/ pistol shrimp) 1 Yellow Tang 1 Royal Gramma 1 Target Mandarin Parameters: SG 1.026 <I would try to keep the SG at 1.023/024>Temp 80-83 PH 8.3 calcium 360 alk 2 DKH (yes, it's very low.....I've started to slowly bring it up with buffer) Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate are all zero Phosphate ? (no kit...yet) 12 hours lighting period All top-off is done with dripped Kalk, and I also use B-Ionic 2 part additive a couple times a week. I've been using Tropic Marin salt. I usually change 25 gallons once a month (sometimes as far apart as 6 weeks though). <Weekly 10% changes would be better> Whew, ok, now that that's out of the way, here's my question: Recently, the soft corals in my tank have not been opening like normal. The brown start polyps (on my overflow box directly under the 400w halide) don't open at all, or open for a brief period and then close. My Sinularia opens and closes a few times a day, but never fully opens (gets to about 80%). The small toadstool seems to do the same thing, although it doesn't seem to be affected as much. They are at opposite ends of the tank and at varying depths. I cannot figure out why this is. I feed the corals about once a week with either a fine mash of marine animal products or frozen Cyclop-eeze. I even went so far as to check to see if there is stray voltage in the tank. I have a grounding probe that is doing it's job (there's about 30 volts from the pumps, but 0 with the ground). <Aaron, the ground probe is a sheep in wolf's clothing. Get rid of it. It is potentially dangerous to you. If you should ever pull this out of the water such as to wipe off and have your other hand in contact with water, you will be in for the shock of your life. I strongly recommend you go to a GFI. If it keeps tripping, you need to replace the defective component. It's quite possible that this stray voltage in the tank may be having some effect on your corals. The electricity still has to travel to the grounding rod as such, although it is at a very low level.> The odd part of all this is that the SPS corals all seems to be unaffected or minimally affected (one or 2 pieces don't have the extension they used to, but they are still extended 90% of the time). Is this a sign of impending doom for my tank? I really don't think so, but after all the reading and researching I've done, I'm at a loss. Thanks for any advice you can offer. <Aaron, I'm thinking that in your lighting set up, 400W may be a little too much for your tank. It's generally recommended in a 90 gallon tank to go with three 175's or two 250's. Another possibility is the age of the lamps. The intensity may have dropped some. Generally after a year with standard ballast, the lamps should be replaced. You don't mention adding strontium or iodine in your query. Soft corals do benefit from small amounts of iodine. When administering, it needs to be checked with a test kit. Too much iodine is no good either. Hope this was of some help. James (Salty Dog)> Sick Toadstool?? - 11/4/03 I have a toadstool coral for about 7 months which did very well. The past few months it has not been opening, it shrunk and the trunk remains wrinkled and yellow coloring. <Hmmm...well......this is somewhat normal as they do retract and go into a growth period from time to time. Basically not opening up for a few weeks and shedding a few layers.> My water readings are perfect. <How old are your lights? Any other changes??> I have 2 brain corals, colt coral, fox coral and star polyp which are all doing ok. <Any touching? Do you use carbon? This could be an allelopathic issue between corals> I have a blue hippo tang, a yellow tang, and a small calm clown. My only problem recently has been bristle worms which I have been trying to catch. <Unless they are very large these are deemed somewhat beneficial at smaller life stages.> Please help as the toadstool is not totally dead. <I am sure it is not. I would not move it unless there is coral nearby (within a couple of inches. Add carbon to your set-up if you do not already. Give it some time> I wish there was something I can do to make it the way it used to be. <How about time?? Did you read through our site regarding Sarcophytons? A good place to start is the articles and FAQs on this coral. -Paul> Not-So Tiny Bubbles.. Where's Don Ho When Ya Need Him? >Hi Crew, >>Hello. >I have a small leather coral "frag" growing on a Aragocrete plug. On the top of the plug there is some bubble algae (Valonia?) growing. I have taken the plug out of the tank and scraped of the bubbles, but they return. How can I safely remove the algae without harming the coral? Thank you for any ideas you may have. >>That's a tough one, and I'm inclined to suggest actually chipping away the bit of the plug where it's growing. That, or consider the animals that eat it (the dreaded Mithrax crab). Don't burst the bubbles, I believe this spreads them. Also, please use our Google bar at the bottom of our home page and search Valonia. Marina Leather coral proximity 2/2/04 HI, How far apart do leather corals have to be (Sinularia and Lobophytum)? The guy at the fish store says they can touch, grow together and be fine. I know they produce a lot of chemicals, but I cant find very much info on how close they can be to each other. Thank You <Hello. I always recommend against allowing corals to physically touch. I would leave at least 6" between them if possible. I have seen them in physical contact many times, but chemical aggression is likely being aggravated, even if more visible signs aren't present. HTH. Adam> Predator in my Sarcophyton - 2/13/04 Hello again. <Hello Annette> Thanks for the response. <Thanks for asking> Well, I did it!! I opened the leather to find a hole that traveled up through almost the entire base. <Sounds like a predatory mollusk. Can't remember the name offhand but there is info out there on predators of soft corals> Based on other readings on WWM, I believe that this is not normal. <Correct> What should a normal, healthy leather look like on the inside? <Firm with rough interior (due to spicule formation) Also, I did not see any noticeable predators inside, <Look a bit more. Very conspicuous> so I am unsure of the cause <Almost sure that a predator is the culprit here>....what can I do to prevent this from happening again? <Find the predator and/or quarantine all incoming animals for two to four weeks. Thanks for your inquiry. ~Paul> Thanks for all your help. Annette Clarkii and Sarcophyton (Toadstool) My Clarkii is swimming into my Sarcophyton. <bummer> When this happens most of the Sarcophyton polyps retract. I'm afraid that is the Clarkii continues this behavior the Sarcophyton will die. <its not great, but the leather is tough and will probably take it. Its LPS hard corals that die from such unnatural impositions to host> Can you give me some advice on what I should do? <remove the clowns if it seems to stress the coral> On a side note, I need some help getting the pH of my newly mixed saltwater up. My tanks pH is around 8.2-8.3, but my newly mixed saltwater has a pH of 8.0. I hate to use buffers because my alk is already at 12.6 in the display tank. Should I add Kalk to the new saltwater? <nope... but Kalk to the tank in small but consistent (nightly) doses will help. Baking soda to the freshwater will be fine too> Thanks for your time and patience, Jeremy G <best regards, Anthony> Sarcophyton leather and percula clowns 3/27/03 Hello again Anthony, Hope you are well! <cheers Jenny, with hope for you in kind> You may or may not remember advising me to remove my two percula clowns from my FOWLR tank because my Lunare Wrasse would eat them eventually. (You will be pleased to hear that the Harlequin Wrasse is still holding his own in this tank and actually pinches food from the Lunare's mouth and then runs like a bat out of hell! Quite funny to watch as peace usually reigns except for these odd skirmishes brought on by himself being greedy!) <heehee... I do recall> Sorry I've wandered, couldn't resist telling you that! Back to the clowns. So I put them in my reef tank and they immediately took to my Sarcophyton (who also owes it's life to you from long ago when it had a necrotic infection). I thought this was an o.k. arrangement because the leather keeps it's polyps open most all of the time. <agreed... usually OK> It has now started to take them in once evening comes and it also starts to shrink dramatically. It's always done this to a lesser degree after dark but not before lights out as it's doing now. <hmm... may have nothing to do with the clowns. Has there been a recent improvement in light or quality of light> New lamps, wiped down crusty bulbs, improved clarity (carbon use after a long absence), etc?> My first thought was PH but I don't think that is the problem as the lowest reading I get is 8.2 usually it's 8.4 <excellent> and the other corals/mushrooms and fish all seem happy. The clowns 'sleep' right inside the leather at night and I can now see a 'bald' patch in the centre approx 1 to 1 1/2 inches in size, no polyps and a yellow/cream colour instead of it's normal flesh colour of pink . <still not that big of a deal... its simply forming a callus> I didn't notice this before because the leather expands to about 10/12 inches across in the daytime and all the other polyps have hidden the centre from view. Is this bald patch due to irritation from the clowns or is it a coincidence and another problem looms (it doesn't look like the necrotic infection the leather had before.) <agreed... likely from the clowns but no worries> Are the clowns nightly attentions going to kill my leather if I leave them in the reef tank or doesn't it matter as long as the bald patch stays in the centre and gets no bigger? <agreed> On a different note I just thought I would tell you that I have finally got my new tank. (you sent me diagrams etc for drilling as I didn't have your book then). <excellent!> if you remember I had loads of trouble with Watford Aquarium who was going to build it. I got a different tank manufacturer to build it for me and he has put in 4 * 1.5 inch bulkheads and built me a long overflow shelf just like your drawing . He has given me a 5yr guarantee and built a superb cabinet as well. I am in the process of decorating the room before setting it up as it's going nowhere once it's filled! I can hardly wait and I hope you won't mind if I need to ask for more advice when the time comes. <looking forward to hearing from you again, my friend> Many thanks for your valued advice - Jenny <a pleasure. Kind regards, Anthony> - Open Close Open Close Open Close... Abnormal Leather! - Hi Guys Yet another question fro you, hope you don't mind. I have a leather coral that seems unhappy at the moment and I don't know why. I haven't moved it or touched, but it keeps on shedding mucus. It will close, then a couple of days later the layer of mucus forms, the polyps under the mucus open until the layer is released and then once it has all been released, the coral stays fully open for a couple of days and then closes and the cycle repeats. This has happened about 4 times in a row now. <Doesn't really sound like a bad thing, although abnormal.> I know it is normal for these to periodically shed, but it is getting to be too frequent, and therefore suggests something is not right. <Well, could be, but it's a tough call.> All of my other corals are ok, my fish are ok. Corals: Pulsing Xenia, White Spot Xenia, Mushroom Anemone, Mushroom Coral (slightly shrinking) & Poly Colony Fish: Fire goby, Fancy Sea Bass, Scarlet Hawkfish, Blackfooted Clown, a couple of Chromis <Make sure none of the fish are nibbling and no coral (besides the xenia) are touching/stinging it.> These are the stats. 36" x 16" x12" Tank RO Water, 5% twice weekly 3 Hagen life Glo fluorescents, 1 actinic 12-14 hrs per day. Berlin Skimmed, HR carbon every 2 weeks, Canister Filter, gravity fed DSB/Refugium(24" x 12" x 12" ), trickle filter Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, Phos, all 0 Calcium 320 falling to 300! <Well, this is a little low, likely not the cause of your leather acting up. I'd correct this immediately.> KH 9-10 pH 8.3 ( Have started supplementing with Kalkwasser ..not much and infrequent (little, test ,little etc) The only thing that could be disturbing it is the Hawkfish. When its closed he seems to like perching on it? <Heh, good ol' Hawkfish. That is probably not the cause because they do that all the time with many types of coral. It could potentially be the cause in this case.> Any observations/comments While I am here I also have a couple of other Q's, not problems really .I have recently set up a refugium/DSB. I managed to get a pure calcium carbonate substrate from a LFS, perfect for the job. They also gave me a few kilos of there live sand from there own refugiums to start it off, and also managed to get a kilo of the gunk that is left after curing the live rock, from another company. <YUM!> ( all hard to come by in these parts of the wood After setting up the DSB I had quite a lot of CaCO3 left so placed 2" of it in the main tank. There are quite a few bubbles appearing in the substrate in the main tank, the question is what are the bubbles? <If the bubbles are appearing between the sand and the glass, they're likely oxygen bubbles from algae photosynthesizing on the glass. They could also be nitrogen bubbles from denitrification, but it's probably o2.> I would have thought that 2" of sand would not be enough to denitrify the nitrate. <It usually isn't> In the DSB there are a few bubbles, Loads of worms/pods already, but no bubbles! <No worries> Sorry I know your busy! just one of those intriguing things (Also should I turn the substrate in the main to stop it compacting, and how often should you feed a refugium/DSB?) <Feed the 'fuge daily if you're trying to encourage lots of 'pods to grow. It's a tough call on the 2" bed though, since it's not quite a DSB. Either way I wouldn't go out of my way to stir it up, there should be little to no compacting. Maybe pick up some Nassarius snails.> Oh and one more question. I have a few what look like flat snails! There look like black slugs, but with hard blue type mother of pearl shells and quite big feelers. And they move so quickly! They just eat the hair algae so think they are useful, just cant ID any ideas?, the thing is the last time I though I found some friendly slugs, they turned out to be predatory Nudibranchs which decimated my polyp colony! ( It did recover) <If you could come up with a picture that would be a huge help. As long as they eat hair algae, they're ok in my book. Good luck! -Kevin> Anyway thanks for your time Cheers Rob Colt Coral with a charming British Accent Hello Anthony and WWM crew, <cheers, my friend> I hope this finds you well . <it does, with thanks and sincere hope that you are well too> Could you help me with my colt coral? I have recently been on holiday and left my tank in the care of a friend who I think did a very good job of keeping everything alive and happy. However I'm not sure about the colt coral it looks as if it has grown while I've been away (2 weeks) but 2 or 3 of its branches have turned white at the tips? <ahhh... interesting, and likely indicative of the sensation if not occasional touching of a neighboring coral. This is chemical warfare> all the rest of it looks very healthy, even the affected branches look fine below the white tips. Because it has grown I notice when it's branches wave they touch (occasionally) a large mushroom anemone that is higher up but the affected branches don't reach it yet, is this a coincidence or is it getting stung or something. <good observation... you are quite correct that this is the first symptom of stinging now that the coral has grown> Will moving the colt a few inches be enough to solve this or is something else amiss do you think? <moving is a rather temporary scenario, but will help. As the tank matures... some coral will need to be removed or trimmed/propagated to maintain growth. A compliment to your husbandry :)> Nothing seems to have changed since I went. All params o.k. except phosphates and nitrates because I haven't yet got a RO unit and these are high in my source water. Hope you can suggest what this is . Many thanks in anticipation of your answer. It is so nice to have experts on hand when you are worried about anything We have nothing to compare with WWM in the UK. Jenny Nunley Cranfield University UK <our pleasure. With kind regards from across the pond, Anthony> Re: Colt Coral Thanks for your (as always) speedy reply Anthony I will move the colt out of reach of it's neighbor for now and I guess this is a good time to buy your book on coral propagation! <do you know of any good ones...Ha!?> On a different note may I pick your brains yet again? <whatever is left is yours top pick.> As I have previously mentioned , I have two 5ft tanks, one FOWLR and the other is the reef tank. Both suffer terribly from hair algae. I was wondering about a Lawnmower Blenny and the possibility of swapping it between the two tanks with gradual acclimatization of course. <sure... could be helpful but only addresses the symptom and not the problem. Aggressive protein skimming alone can eradicate most nuisance algae in 2-6 weeks. The algae is all about nutrient control> Probably over a few days, maybe in the QT tank gradually upping and downing the SG because the Reef SG is higher than the FOWLR, 1.025 and 1.021 .is this feasible with reasonable time lapses in between? <possible, but likely unnecessary> I would get one for both tanks but thought this would be a better way of making sure he has enough food on a permanent basis as I hear they only eat hair algae and would starve if not provided with enough of it, what are your thoughts on this idea please. <yes.. I see. Still... it would be much better to simply get the skimmers producing daily dark skimmate, decanting the thawed juice from frozen foods, feeding smaller more frequent feedings, changing carbon more frequently, etc. All about nutrient control indeed> I just thought, I better tell you who his tank mates would be. I assume no problem in the reef , I hope! I have in there, 2 Percula clowns, 1 2 1/2" red hawk, 1 Gramma and 1 firefly. <nicely peaceful> In the FOWLR he would have to mix with 1 7" Naso , 1 7" green wrasse, 1 3 1/2" yellow tang, 1 3" pyjama tang, 2 percula clowns (yes I do love the Percs, I mean Percs) and 2 green Chromis. Thanks again - Jenny <hmmm... I do have concern that the Green Bird (?) Wrasse will eat the Percs, Chromis and lawnmower in time. They get quite large and aggressive at sexual maturity.. they behave for a year or so. After that, I have seen them fed 4" crayfish which they smash to pieces off the rocks. Do consider removing in time. Kindly, Anthony> What Happened to my Toadstool Leathers I have 2 toadstool leathers. I bought them 3 weeks ago. They have been beautiful. They both were fully extended with long beautiful polyps within hours of placing them in my tank, and have remained that way ever since the first day. Until Monday. Monday I came home from work and they were not extended at all. No polyps and the corals kinda shriveled up like they do sometimes at night, but not completely closed. Same thing today, so it's been 48 hours. They are on the same rock and have been I guess since cultivated. They are both about 7 inches tall and 6 inches across when fully opened. Just beautiful, except for last two days. They have not really drooped low or anything - the one on top of rock is still erect. The only thing I did was do a 5% water change Sunday afternoon. <no harm here> They looked great after the water change. Salinity is same, no trace of amm. or nitrites, and nitrates almost nonexistent. The other two corals - a 6" diameter pagoda and a small 4" rock full of long green polyps that look like grass are thriving and look even better after the water change. <likely Starpolyp... a very noxious and aggressive coral. Do not keep near other corals. Beautiful though> I did the small water change because tank has been set up now for 10 weeks and was starting to get a little algae growth. Not much, though (like a little green on one rock and one pre-filter and front of glass. But I have yet to scrape anything including glass. Tank was getting 10 hours of light from 2x96 watt PC lights (one blue/one daylight). There is about 45 pounds of premium Vanisi live rock plus 1/2" of live sand. Other critters include many snails and blue leg hermits. There are 4 fish - a small yellow tang, small yellow-eye tang, and two small goby sand sifters. Temp a constant 78 degrees. Skimmer is Euroreef and a 30 gallon sump. Tank is 38 gallons. I move almost 800 gph through the system with two prefilters and two return pumps, plus one extra powerhead in tank for add'l circulation. All other life and critters are fine and thriving - why did the toadstool leathers suddenly go "dormant"? Will they come out of it? <the leather are likely fine. There are many reasons why they retract their polyps for extended periods. pH dipping low (below 8.2), hand in the tank daily (very irritating to them), or even simply growth (they shed a waxy tunic from their crown several times monthly and retract polyps during this time). Your system otherwise sounds quite fine... no worries. They will likely come around within 2-4 days. Best regards, Anthony> Purple colt coral??, Coral Aggression Hi Anthony or Bob, <you're still stuck with me...Anthony <G>> Thanks for the quick response. I now have the comfort of knowing that I have a blue Capnella instead of a colt coral so that I can care for it in the correct manner. However, as mentioned in your reply, it is a weakly aggressive species that needs protection.....well, I do have both mushrooms and green star polyps about 4-5 inches away from it..... <you can expect problems with poor growth and polyp extension in the mid to long range plan...possibly sooner> what do you mean by protection? is it necessary in this case and how could I go about doing so? <For this and all coral in the tank, determine which species are most aggressive and isolate them (when light/water flow allow) to the perimeter of the tank and/or near the top by overflows to try to get a great portion of the noxious compounds shed into the skimmer and/or chemical filters with the hope of reducing the silent aggression. In the case of the mushrooms... they are particularly hostile. If they flourish in the tank (reproduce) then you will definitely have problems with the health of some other corals in the system> I look forward to your response and thanks for all your help so far :) Sincerely, Jimmy <with kind regards, Anthony Calfo> |
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