New Tank, Old Rock 7/11/07
I am about to set up a new FOWLR (which I want to slowly convert to a reef). I have a 46 gallon bowfront with 2 emperor 400's and an AC 75 gallon rated protein skimmer. I am buying 60 lbs of premium Fiji from a friend of mine who has a beautiful 300 gallon reef in his office (Ah, the life of a doctor!) and the rock has been in that tank for 18 months with no problems. <Nice> His office is relocating and cannot fit a tank that size so I am going to capitalize on that opportunity! I am also going to buy 20 lbs of live sand and also take sand from my friends tank as well. <Could probably skip buying the sand and just let normal "dead" sand colonize.> My question is regarding the cycling of my tank. I have cycled tanks the traditional way (4-6 weeks of watching the water quality) I am wondering if I will have to do that again? <They cycle will probably go faster.> The rock will be placed in 5 gallon buckets with the water from his tank so die off should be nearly non existent. <More than you would think.> He said my tank probably won't even spike and I could add live stock right away. <I would not.> I'm leery but it seems to make sense. What do you think?
Thanks so much for your help! Keep up the fantastic work!
Brian
<I think that I would cycle it as normal, if nothing else the 4 weeks fallow will help prevent any disease transmission. Better slow and steady here.>
<Chris>

Re: was... Micro Bubbles, now... new ozone reactor reaction to cycling   7/10/07
Hi!
<Howzit?>
Ok, I think I found the leak. The side in question gets a little wet if the pipe is bumped. It is coming from the bulkhead somewhere. Also, when the pipe is bumped the bubbles increase in spurts.
<Oops! Ah ha!>
So I have a new bulkhead on the way to take care of that.
If you don't mind, I have another problem.
My tank is about 6 months old and water was staying pretty good (ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates under 5ppm)
Ph is a consistent 8, Alk 8 dKH and calcium at 380 to 400.
I added a sander ozonizer about 2 weeks ago.
<Good units>
I have a 100mg unit hooked to an ORP controller. ORP has never gone above 350.
Now I am getting ammonia 0, nitrites at .75ppm and nitrate at 20ppm.
<Mmm, likely the microbes that do that voodoo that they do so well with nitrogenous cycling are taking a hit from the higher O3 effects...>
I have a 125 gallon tank, a 50 gallon refugium and a 25 gallon sump.
AquaC EV120 skimmer, 2 GENX PCX70 pumps.
Korallin C1502 calcium reactor. 120 pounds of live rock, 4 to 5 inches of sugar sized aragonite in refugium and tank.
Stock is 1 Naso tang 5 inches, 2 1 inch ocellaris clowns, 4 Chromis (1 inch or less) 1 lawnmower blenny 4 inches, 1 Kole tang 4 inches, 1 coral beauty angel 3 inches.
Would the addition of the ozonizer make it go through another cycle?
<Mmm, yes, could...>
Is there anything you would recommend doing?
<Being careful re feeding till all re-settles>
Thank you very much for your time,
David Matza
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Cycling/skimmer and retail   7/8/07
Hi Bob& Co,
Its me again with some more silly questions as I am just getting started.
<Heeee! I'm full of them still!>
1. Bob, from your book I note that you live in San Diego as well.
<Yes>
Can you recommend any/some retailers in SD that are "Conscientious Aquarist"?
<Oh, yes... Pat Hurley's stores, the Aquatic Warehouse, and Ron Elander's Octopus's Garden are faves (both out in Kearny Mesa)... and there are some good folks down at Fountain's in La Mesa. There are some other purportedly good stores in town, but I don't know them well enough to "plug" here>
2. I got water from Scripps and am letting it sit in the dark for two weeks.
<Mmmm... I would NOT use this water by and large... see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/index.htm
scroll down... the dull blue line/tray>
I am about to cycle the tank. You say in your book not to run the skimmer for the first month while it cycles.
<Usually the case, yes>
Is that because the skimmer would keep it too clean that the cycling wouldn't even occur if I run it?
<Mostly, yes... Forestalls>
3. Any recommendations for master test kit?
<Mmm, Hach, LaMotte...>
Do those 5 in 1 strips work well?
<No... neither accurate, nor precise...>
Couldn't find any here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/martstkituse.htm
Cheers,
Ganz
<And you. Bob Fenner>

Tank set-up and cycling question   6/25/07
Hi
<HI Nicholas, Marie here today>
One more before I go and teach some younglings. I've had my tank set up for about a week and a half now, and I've have LR, LS, and one damsel.
<Poor damsel! >
I also added a pouch of that bacteria in a bag. I don't remember the brand name, however it seems like it has one heck of an effect.
<What type of an effect? >
I have not seen spikes of ammonia nor nitrites. However, I am seeing levels of 10 ppm of nitrates.
<10ppm of nitrates does not seem too high for a FO system; generally fish can tolerate nitrate levels up to approximately 40ppm>
If you already have sufficient bacteria from the live sand, live rock, and bacterial product you added you may actually be able to handle the bioload of one fish. I know that the instructions for adding these bio-products include adding fish immediately in conjunction with the product, however there are much more humane ways to add ammonia to the tank like adding just a pinch or flake food each day>
Do I have a normal cycle going, or is the cycle complete since I am seeing the nitrates? Should I just let everything spike,
<Again, no livestock should have to go through the punishment of ammonia spike when this is totally avoidable. >
or will it even do that considering I already have nitrates?
<The tank is usually considered fully cycled once your ammonia and nitrite levels have come back down to zero. I would recommend reading the following article on the Nitrogen cycle: www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm, and this article on nitrates: www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm, these articles should answer most of your questions. >
Thank you once again! Nicholas Wilhelm
<Your welcome Nicholas,
Marie>

"The Mystery of The Missing Nitrogen Cycle" (Marine Aquarium Cycling Query)   6/24/07
Hi, thanks for taking the time to read this!
<Always fun for us! Scott F. here this afternoon...>
I am a little bit confused as of right now.
<That's me on any given day- don't sweat it!>
I've had my tank set up for about 3 and a half weeks now. I have a 30g, 20 pounds of LR, LS as the substrate, and added Bio-Spira(?) about a week ago. I am not reading anything with my liquid tests. I have two sets, thinking maybe one of the tests were off. Both tests show that I have ZERO ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.
<Were you ever getting detectible ammonia or nitrite during this period? If the tank is "cycled", there should have been some detectible ammonia and nitrite spike. With some live rock in their, you certainly introduced a potential ammonia source. I would cautiously operate under the assumption that the system has cycled over that period of time...Note the word "cautiously". I hate to "assume", but if you didn't test the water throughout the period and there was a potential source of ammonia in there from the get go, it's a slightly safer one, IMO. On the other hand, if you have a conservative streak in you like I do, you'll start throwing in some frozen food and seeing what your water tests like in several days...>
I am getting brown algae, or diatoms, but my levels show that nothing is happening. Is it safe to assume that the cycle may be complete?
<As above. Proceed with extreme caution. There's obviously sufficient nutrient in your system to feed the algae, of course!>
Are the nitrates, if the cycle is complete, being sucked up by the diatoms?
<Diatoms are large consumers of silicates. Other algaes certainly do utilize nitrate, as well as phosphate, but I think that it would be reaching to assume that ALL nitrate is being consumed by the algae.>
I had a hermit crab hitchhiker on a piece of LR that I put in a week ago, and he seems to be doing fine, so I'm not really sure where I'm at. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!!
<Again, I recommend proceeding with caution. It's important to test for ammonia and nitrite from the minute you set up your system, so that you know exactly what's going on and where you are in the cycling process. Keep testing as you add your first few animals (after quarantine, of course!) and keep careful records. Best of luck on your new adventure! Regards, Scott F.>

Re: new to marines 6/9/07
Hi
<Greetings, GrahamT with you today!>
I have had a look around your site, it's sometimes difficult to find what you want because there's so much there.
<I'll take that as a compliment. ;) >
I did find this, but I'm not sure what it means:
Introduce the beneficial microbes in a culture, established gravel, or "used" filter media, plus a source of nutrient (appropriate damsels, blennies, food, nitrogenous compounds). Monitor and record the nitrogen cycle for whatever time it takes (generally no more than 6-8 weeks) until there is no detectable ammonia or nitrite. Fire over your skimmer and begin adding other livestock.
<This means that the "beneficial microbes" (the ones responsible for reducing/converting toxic byproducts of the animals in a closed system) can be introduced via a culture (read: grown for retail sale/distribution in a vial or other form), established gravel (read: gravel from a friend's established system), or filter media from that same friend's system. The nitrifying bacteria take time to grow in populations sufficient to maintain a balance in a system without toxic results.>
For Invertebrate and Reef Systems For Invertebrate and Reef Systems: Wait a week after set-up and either go through the bacterial introduction and monitoring the water for cycling as above or initiate same with live-rock and/or live-sand.
<Good practice in any case.>
- will live rock & sand be sufficient to start the bacteria growing, or do I need to add anything else?
<It will be sufficient as long as the rock and/or sand are moved in a timely manner and the bacteria stay alive. This is not overly difficult, and is a common practice in the hobby. Good luck! and here is some reading for you to brush up on. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marcyclefaqs.htm Read below and all the links in blue. You get lost in the sea of info, but it's worth it!
-GrahamT>
Regards
Len

Going Natural (Yanking Biological Filter Media) 6/9/07
Hello guys!
<Hey there! Scott F. with you today!>
What a great site you guys have put together! Thanks for that by the way! :)
<We appreciate the kind words!>
Ok- my 55g FOWLR setup is this: 55lbs of live Sand, 56lbs of Live Rock, a ZooMed Power Sweep and Maxijet 900 for water movement, an Aqua C Remora skimmer w/ Maxijet 1200. I also have a Eheim Classic canister running too with just bio-media in it. My question is can my tank handle a bioload if I remove my canister. My livestock so far is one Black Ocellaris Clown, 2 Peppermint Shrimps, 1 Cleaner Shrimp, 1 Emerald Crab, 5 Blue Leg Hermit Crabs, 4 Turbo snails. I want to get more livestock down the road this is why I am asking. I eventually want a pygmy Rusty Angel and a Yellow Tang.
<As an aside, I'd go for a smaller Centropyge Angelfish species, like the C. flavicaudus or C. argi, which stay small (generally 3 inches or less). The Rusty tends to get a bit larger (towards 5") and may not be a good long-term resident in a system of this size. Ditto for the Tang. This sized aquarium just does not offer enough "physical space" for this species to be happy for its full life span.>
Can my LS/LR handle this or should I look into curing more LR for my bioload??
<In my experience, you certainly could dump the bio media if you are good with your husbandry practices, such as regular, small water changes, good skimming (yielding daily skimmate), and perhaps the use and replacement of chemical filtration media, such as activated carbon or Poly Filter. Also, resist the temptation to overstock your tank; understand its limits, and add new inhabitants slowly. The bacteria in your rock and sand can certainly do the job if you follow the simple concepts outlined above.>
Thanks in advance! Once again, thank you for wetwebmedia.com!!!! Brad
<Glad to be of service, Brad! Best of luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Changing Canister Filters...How Long To Establish Bio-Filtration? – 05/29/07
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I bought a new, larger canister filter for my well-established tank (5 years running minus two moves). I have both canisters running to get the new one started.
<<I see...is used for biological filtration then>>
How long do you think I should run the new one before safely removing the old one?
<<Seven days should be sufficient>>
Thanks...I tried to search for this but it's a difficult one to word in a search engine.
Lance
<<No worries mate, happy to assist. EricR>>

Transferring To New Tank...Cycle First Or Use Existing Media? – 05/21/07
Hi,
<<Hello>>
I am frequent reader of your website and I have a question to ask.
<<Okay>>
I have a 55-gallon tank with 2 Common Clowns,1 Bicolor Angel, 1 Bird Wrasse,1 Royal  Gramma and two Sailfin Tangs one yellow and the other one brown.
<<Too many active/large fishes for this tank>>
They all have done well for about four years.  I am now building a new tank of about  120-gallons.
<<Ah...much better>>
My question is how am I going to transfer the fish in the new aquarium?  Can I use the existing biological filter media?
<<This can be/has been done this way, though I don’t recommend it unless absolutely necessary and/or the aquarist is very experienced and well aware of the dangers re.  In addition to transferring the biological media, do also transfer as much of the old system water as possible.  Be sure to add chemical filtration (carbon/Poly-Filter)...monitor water parameters very closely for the next week...and have plenty of saltwater on hand that has been “mixed and aged” ahead of time for performing large water changes should the need arise>>
And if yes how long should I take to transfer the fish?
<<As long as it takes to transfer the media/water>>
Or should I recycle the tank from the beginning?
<<This is the best method, in my opinion>>
Thank you in advance.
Anthony Zahra
<<Happy to assist.  Eric Russell>>

Quicker cycle? FW and SW nitrifying bacteria are different strains       5/21/07
<Hi Breanna, Mich here.>
I have a well-established cichlid tank, which I want to turn into SW.
<OK.>
This is a healthy tank no diseases or issues.
<OK.>
I'm wondering if I make the N cycle quicker, if not skip it, if I save the water from this tank?
<Mmm, nope, different strains of bacteria at work here.  More here:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm >
I could get rid of the fish, decor, fw plants, gravel, leave the under gravel filter alone as much as possible mix in salt to right level put in play/live sand, and a few pieces of live rock....
<I personally would remove the undergravel filter when setting up a marine tank.  More here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/u_gfiltmarfaqs.htm >
Guess the real question: is the bacteria that changes ammonium to nitrate in a fw tank the same as in a sw tank?
<That is the question and the answer is no.>
Would I be better off "gutting" and cleaning and starting the standard way?
<Yep!  Your live rock will be the most helpful in cycling your system.  Start fresh!  Mich>
thanks
Breanna

Tank Moving and Cycling – 5/1/07
Hi ya'll!! Love the site!
<Hey there! Thanks!>
I'm a newbie to saltwater and am asking this question for more for my own edification than anything else.
<ok>
I just mixed water and salt mix in my 75 gallon tank.  I added 60lbs of live sand and 72lbs of live rock.  Within 24 hours of doing this, I had a tank-filter hose leak bad enough where I had to break down the tank, move it, pull up the carpet / padding and have to have the carpet pad replaced and the carpet replaced.
<Eeek!  That’s not fun.>
My questions are
(1) now that I've setup the tank in a temporary location, I'm presuming that I will use the test kit to determine if the cycle has finished and perform a water change as needed to get the levels down just like it were in it's original spot?
<Yes.  When your ammonia and nitrites are back down to zero, it is cycled. If they do not rise much, you may want to add a tiny bit of fish food to get it going. If it is well cured live rock, you may not see any cycle, and readings will stay at zero. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm >
(2) When I get ready to move the tank back it's original position, will it need to recycle b/c the live rock will exposed to air, albeit a short time, again b/c of the breakdown process?
<No.  If you just remove it all to containers while you move the tank and setup, you should not have any appreciable loss of bacteria.  Don’t leave the rock out of water, just set it in the containers of water.  Buy some Rubbermaid stock if you are planning on being in this hobby for long – we keep them in business.  Hee!>
Is there anything else that I need to worry about or can do to take
preventative measure - or am I just extending the time before I can get fish and inverts by doing another move?
<This should not slow you down.  It is just very inconvenient.>
Many thanks in advance!
<Welcome. Alex>

Cycle time when seeding from existing setup 4/26/07
Hello and thank you for your time.
<Greetings and you are welcome.>
First off I just love your web site!  I have spent years looking at it.  
<Ditto. I still learn from it myself!>
As a long time keeper of fresh water systems, I know to instant cycle a new tank I just add the filter media from an old tank and go from there.  Does the same principle work for marine tanks?  
<More or less, but the fish depend on a more stable environment that can only be provided with a little more time than you are used to. You can't just plop the filter in and go get some fish. You'll need to test the water and watch for the spikes of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate that indicate when the cycle is complete. Furthermore, the longer you can wait before introducing fish or inverts will add to the stability.>
The reason I am asking is I have a 5 year old FOWLR nano system and I am thinking of moving up to a 55g tank.  Besides a little extra lbs of new live rock I plan on using all of my existing sand, rock and equipment.  Now on to my question.  How much time should pass between the initial tank set up of the 55g with cured live rock and moving the live rock, sand and other occupants of the 5 year old system to the new tank.  
<To be safe, I would wait at least a month, but your test results will give you a better idea. I would feel good about waiting an additional week to a month *AFTER* the test results indicate "safe conditions" abound.>
I don't want to hurt any of my thriving critters.
<A just cause, indeed.>
Again thank you for your time,
Vicki S
<You're welcome, Vicky! Good luck to you!
-GrahamT>

Nitrifying Bacteria Wipe Out? (Heater Breakdown)  3/16/2007
Hello to all,
<Hi.>
Need to ask one question on the bacteria, I've recently lost a marine aquarium to a heater malfunction. Of course it stayed on instead of off. Like they usually do.
<Sorry to hear that, recommend going with two heaters next time, lower wattage. There is still a risk but if one goes awry again...it's less likely to cook a tank since it's not as powerful....and less likely two will go down simultaneously.>
My question is how high a temp. can the bacteria take before dying?
<Unless the tank literally boils for a sustained period of time, it is not likely you will kill all of the bacteria. There will however be a die off and it will take time for them to procreate and return to optimal levels.  Think of it as restarting your nitrogen cycle.>
Thanks so much for your answer.
<Of course.>
Jim  Jesko
<Adam Jackson.>

Cycling Refugium With BioSpira (But why?) 3/14/07
Hi All,
<Hi, "D". GrahamT here.>
I have set up a 6 gallon Eclipse tank as a refugium for my 10 gallon nano reef.  
<I love refugiums... and adding volume for that matter.>
I started the cycling about 2 weeks ago using a piece of frozen shrimp to get the ammonia in there (Left it in for 1 week then removed).  
<Wait. You are cycling a refugium? This doesn't compute. If you are adding more volume in the form of a refugium to one system, and it is destined to contain exactly the same water as the main system, then why would we cycle it separately??? (Or at all)>
My LFS usually carries BioSpira but they were out and said it was on order.  This past weekend I went back only to find they just placed the order and it would be another 2 weeks... so I ordered BioSpira from Drs. Foster and Smith online Saturday P.M.  Product shipped Monday, received the package overnight A.M.; products still cold, well packaged great service by the way). I took a reading on the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates and of course they all top the charts.  
<Well, of course...>
I added some of the BioSpira (the 1 oz is for 30 gallons and this is only 6) with plans to add some more later. (Package clipped tightly closed and replaced in fridge.)  Then later add some Right Now! by HDLtd which I have found really helps in knocking down the nitrates.  
<Not sure how that could be. Isn't "Right Now!" a live bacteria (like Bio-Spira)? It doesn't claim to contain any anoxic or anaerobic  bacteria capable of reducing Nitrates.>
But while doing a search on the WWM site for BioSpira I ran across the sentence...""They, and the microbes in the BioSpira were poisoned, hemolyzed in the fishes' case, by the ammonia...""  So I became confused as to the use of BioSpira and I'm quite possibly misunderstanding the statement.  
<Nah, that's just Bob trying to scare you into cycling a tank properly. ;)> <<You are perceptive. RMF>>
But it has me thinking that by adding BioSpira to a tank high in ammonia I'm killing the beneficial microbes and in fact wasting my time adding the product.  Please clarify this for me.  If I need to do a water change to dilute the high readings somewhat before adding more BioSpira, please let me know.  
<This is news to me. Bob has just earned a forward from me. My research on hemolization tells me it can apply to this situation, but is rather vague specifically with the microbial "form". Hemolyzed red blood cells are ruptured, not sure how ammonia does this, but I am not a bio-chemist. This one is for Bob.><<Way too much ammonia/ammonium presence will kill beneficial microbes... cause hemolysis (in animals with RBC's natch). RMF>>
I was running a carbon filter.  I removed the carbon bag before adding the BioSpira.
<Not necessary, will not filter out anything that Bio-Spira metabolizes, and can actually provide a ton of surface area for the bacteria to live on.>
(Whisper inside filter because of the low water level... below bulkhead and left the bio-filter in place)  The refugium has a 4-1/2" sand bed and that is all that's in the refugium at this time.  I know I need to have all parameters in this tank identical to my main tank before even considering tying them together.  
<The simplest way to achieve this would be to fill it with water from the display and some substrate, immediately tying them together.>
I have some extra live rock from rearranging my main tank which I plan to add after the ammonia, nitrite & nitrate levels are to 0.  Then I'll add Chaeto.  Should I put a cleanup crew in my refugium?  
Move a couple snails and/or a hermit crab; was thinking to order some brittle stars to put in there.  
<Not necessary, doesn't hurt unless you worry about competition from the hermits for pods.>
The live rock has bristle worms and Gammarus shrimp already.  Love the Gammarus shrimp... highly entertaining and excellent scavengers.  Afterwards, my thoughts are during my main tank water changes to remove equal water from refugium and replace it with the removed water from the main tank.  Should I do this for a week or two before tying them together?   
<Would do it once and have done with it altogether. I think it's good that you worry about the condition of the 'fuge, but I think this could be going faster and smoother if you just tie-in to the main display and let everything equalize. The system wouldn't spike if you had started this way, but now you don't want to introduce the elevated levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate into your main system. Live and learn. I would be more concerned doing it this way that your 'fuge is chemically different in many ways from the display, and when you finally do "join" them, there will be a period of accelerated acclimation. That said, I think you'll still be fine, because you have a plan and you know what to look for. Good luck!
-GrahamT>
Thanks again.
Regards,
Debbie P.

Graham tattle tail-ing on Brandon...   3/11/07
Bob,
<Big G!>
Was just looking over the current dailies and came across a post titled, "Kalk & Nano   3/11/07" answered by Brandon. It jumped out at me because he mentioned cycling with livestock.
<<I thought that this was O.K.  I will research it further, has worked for me in the past however.>>
Even more than that though, was that there is a perfect example of the silly conversation we've been having about the incomplete URLs in his post. Look for his link to: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/kalkh20faq2.htm and you'll see what I mean.
<<Checked the dailies and have seen what you are talking about.  Perhaps someone could have pointed this out sooner?  Don't want to be a trouble maker.  I think that the links are getting messed up in the copy/paste operations from Word to Webmail.  I totally missed this.  Will make sure it doesn't happen again.  I know that Bob is busy and it helps when we do the proofreading on our own messages, but I am only human, and I miss things.>>
<Did see>
There, now you have a visual aid for what I already know you know about. I'm a proponent of talking things to death sometimes... it's true.
And to Brandon, shame on you! j/k
<<I have put myself in the corner for the last thirty minutes.  Brandon.>>
-GrahamT
<Mmm, still a S.O.P. with/for many... B>
<<Heeee! No worries. BobF>
Brandon, Brandon! You had better stop with the trouble making, or I'll use YOU to cycle a 15 gallon FOWLR with 5 pounds of live rock!
Where's my wet noodle?!? I hope you were snickering when writing this. I hate to think I made anyone think I'm policing them. I am slightly surprised to see it recommended to use livestock to cycle, though I didn't think you'd be put out by it. You weren't, right? I'm just covering my arse, right? RIGHT?  Oh great! Now he's not even talking to me. Wonderful.
;) You can come out of the corner now...
-Graham

Re: Graham tattle tail-ing on Brandon...   3/11/07
Brandon, Brandon! You had better stop with the trouble making, or I'll use YOU to cycle a 15 gallon FOWLR with 5 pounds of live rock!
Where's my wet noodle?!? I hope you were snickering when writing this.
<Actually, I was giggling.>
I hate to think I made anyone think I'm policing them.
<I have done the same thing regarding a post by a crew member that said that there are many white H. crispa found in nature.  So I will not fault you for the same thing.  There is nothing wrong with being passionate, besides if we didn‘t check up on each other, this site wouldn‘t be the best of it‘s kind.  So please feel free to let me know if you feel I have miss stepped.  I welcome this sort of thing.  It is how one learns.>
I am slightly surprised to see it recommended to use livestock to cycle, though I didn't think you'd be put out by it. You weren't, right? I'm just covering my arse, right? RIGHT?  
<Well I figured that it was all right to use live stock.  When I did my 75g reef, I put in ~120 pounds of cured live rock, and two or three fish.  A P. hexataenia, and two P. biaculeatus.  Let it run like this for about two weeks, and the cycle was done.  Turbo cycling.  But no I would not put fish in a tank with live rock that has yet to be cured.>
Oh great! Now he's not even talking to me. Wonderful.
<HA! Good luck!  My wife says I can’t shut up!  So does my boss!>
;) You can come out of the corner now...
<I have been out of the corner for about an hour now.  I had to go pick up a Trachyphyllia for my display tank.  They guy that sold it to me charged me $10 extra bucks because he said that it was a Wellsophyllia!  I think that this is punishment enough. (;^D).  Brandon.>
-Graham

Tank not Cycling!  – 03/09/07
Hey Bob
<Brandon with you tonight.>
I would just like to thank you and the crew for all the work you do helping us marine novices.
<You're welcome, we were all novices once.>  
I’ve been cycling my 130 L (I think about 30 gallons) with 6 Kg (13 pounds) of LR. My LFS recommended no substrate; they seemed to think that LR would be enough to cycle it.  <Live Rock is not technically what cycles the tank.  There are bacteria on the rock that have to grow in order for the Nitrogen cycle to start.> I’m running a JEBO 180 hang-on Skimmer during the day (not at night cause the thing is really LOUD). I have DIY in-built wet/dry filtration system and an extra power head for circulation. I’ve had my tank
up a running for about 6 weeks now and it seems like my test results never change.  <Are there fish in the tank?>
0,5 mg/l NH3
0,1 mg/l NO2 (Hard to tell it, might just be 0. I find it hard to read the colour chart.)
0,0 mg/l N03 (Again hard to tell, as the colours for 0,5 and 10 look the same.)
pH 8.2
SG 1.026
Temp 26 (79)
Seeing these results give me the impression that it’s hardly even started cycling.  <I had a recent issue with NO2 that I think is applicable here.  I could not seem to get the NO2 to drop in my tank for anything.  I have had the tank running for a year.  I wound up removing all the live rock, and vacuuming the gravel very thoroughly.  This did the trick for me.  I would try this.  Something that you are not aware of could have died under the sand.> I was just wondering when it was time to start panicking that it
won’t cycle.  <It will cycle eventually.> Also with my last couple of tanks I noticed that when they were cycling that there lots of little critters moving around but in this tank
there doesn’t appear to be any.  <The ammonia might be too high.  I would be looking for dead critters at this point.  Could be built up organics in the water too.  Run the skimmer 24 hours a day for about a week and see what happens.  8-10 hours is kind of a long time to leave the skimmer off.  Perhaps you could sell this one and get an AquaC Remora.  These are pretty quiet.  I personally like to run my skimmer in the sump.  I would vacuum the substrate very well, even up under the rock.  I know that it is not generally recommended to do this, but this is a special case here.  The bacteria will grow based off of available food.  The caveat of this, is that sometimes there is so much available food that the bacteria can't grow fast enough to dispose of it all, and you will experience a sort of lag.  I have had great success with trying to cut the amount down.  It seems that the bacteria catch up rather quickly when you do this.  Try it out, run the skimmer, and after about two weeks you should have better numbers.> All I’m getting is lots and lots of algae but this has slowed down because I’m only running the lights for 4 hours a day instead of 7.  <If there are no fish, I would not even bother with the lights.  The algae are growing because of an excess of nutrients.  There is a possibility that this rock was not properly cured as well.  It happens sometimes.  To cure the rock run the tank fallow with the lights off for about four weeks.  After that you should be ready to cycle.> I purchased the LR rock from the same LFS as my other tanks and did exactly the same thing as my other tanks.
Thanks for the help
<I tossed a lot of ideas at you, I hope that one of them helps.  Brandon>

Alkalinity high, Ca low - ph stuck 8.0   2/25/07
Wife and I have new 75g tank set up and cycling. 2 weeks old.
20g sump and ASM G2 skimmer
Trying to monitor levels and do what is necessary to get water chemistry right while cycling tank
<Okay>
100# Kaelini live rock uncured originally I think
<Yes... is a "Walt Smith" Fiji product... named after one of his and Deb's daughters... have been out collecting... seen the process there for cleaning...>
Instant Ocean with RO/DI water
2" aragonite sand bed
Here are latest water tests pH - 8.0 can't seem to get it up to 8.3.
<No worries... mostly the affects of LR curing...>
  Initially was around 7.8
We have added 4 tsp (80g dosage) SeaChem Marine 8.3 buffer on about 4 different days, raised pH to 8.0 but no higher
<Is fine>
temp - ranges from 78-81.  do I need more fan to stabilize this better or is this normal?
<Is fine as well>
actinics(4-65w) on for 8hrs with MH (2-250w) on for 6hrs
<Would extend once rock is cured>
Ammon-0 spiked to high of 8.0 and dropped
Nitrites -test .5 today , spiked as high as 5.0
Nitrates - had spiked as high as 80 now hovering at 20 last several days.
Is our cycle about to finish??
<Mmm, yes, likely so>
My Alk is at 14 dKH today up from 12 last several days.
<Less of the alkalinity buffer to add...>
Calcium is at 280 up from 240.
<More of the alkaline earth to add...>
The only thing we have added is about 4 daily doses over 2 weeks of SeaChem buffer to try and get pH to 8.3
and about 3 doses of Oceans Blend 2 part liquid to try to raise Calcium.
<Stop the former, continue the latter>
All this at recommendation of LFS
They said don't worry with water changes yet, just let cycle complete.
<About right>
No livestock at all.  
Pretty coralline on live rock bleached out to pure white initially,  but now appears to be coming back in some places
Last several days have a little green algae starting to form on rock and glass.  Looks like single strands about 1/2" long.
Today noticed white minute particles floating around.   Thought it may be micro bubbles, but don't believe it is air.
Also first time noticed a light film on surface of water in one side of tank.  Redirected Powerheads and seems to be getting better but not completely gone.  No film had been seen in previous 2 weeks.
Skimmer running from day one,, poly in filter section.
I want to raise Calcium up, LFS said use 2 part mix.
<Is one route... see WWM re>
We have added about 2-3 dosages of 2 part mix, not sure of what dosage to use, we added 15ml of each part.
<Just keep measuring, recording the results of what you add...>
This has raised Calcium from 240 to 280, but also Alk from 12 to 14 dKH
Can I use only Calcium part of 2 part mix??
<Yes>
As I think my Alk is beginning to get to the high side, right??
<Yes... I would leave off boosting it beyond 12dKH>
Thanks in advance for your help;
Butch
<Enjoy the process. Bob Fenner>

Marine Cycling Bio-Spira 2/16/07
Dear Crew,
<Hello>
I have searched and have not found these specific answers.  I started my marine tank (hopefully a reef) about 5 weeks ago.  20 gallon, 12  lb. live rock, Penguin 150 bio-wheel and Prizm protein skimmer.  <That skimmer does not have the best reputation, may want to consider replacing it.> With the recommendation of the LFS, I set up the tank, LR, water and filters one day and added Bio-Spira the next day along with 3 clowns, 1 flaming angel and a yellow anemone. <Way too much way too fast, and a bad livestock combination on top of that.> Within two days, the anemone died. <Unfortunately not surprising.>
Pulled it out and everything seemed to be fine.  The LFS told  me everything should be fine with the Bio-Spira and gave me another anemone, this time white. <Not a good sign of health in the anemone.>  This one died within days as well. <Again not surprising.>  Now after weeks of reading your website, I know I have just killed two anemones for all the wrong reasons. <At least you used it as a learning experience.> Not trusting the LFS anymore, I finally got a test kit. <Good>  I did a 25% water change and after that, my readings were ammonia 0 Nitrites 2.0, Nitrates 20 and pH at 8.4.  I have been measuring the nitrite everyday for a week now with the reading at 2.  Yesterday I did the all the testing again, ammonia 0, nitrites 2, Nitrates 150 <Wow, a lot.> and pH 8.4.  Today, the Nitrates have risen  to 5.0 or higher.  The tank went through an algae cycle two weeks ago but that cleared up right away. <Will probably return in a different form at some point.>  The fish all seem healthy, they eat great and swim normally.  <Good>  With the parameters as I describe, should I do water changes, and if so, how much and how often? <Yes and often until the nitrite reading goes to 0, probably 10% every other day.> I know the tank  still needs to cycle but I do not want to lose the fish because I  didn't act quickly enough.  <Will slow down the process but the alternative is losing the fish.>  I would like to eventually add some mushrooms and some "easy" to keep corals.  <Ok, but not with an anemone.>
Another question I have is about micro-bubbles.  I use Prime to  condition the water.  I have read that this may cause the bubbles but it should clear up within a couple of weeks.  <Will effect water's surface tension.>  I have had these  bubbles since day 1 and they have not reduced and they are being produced by the skimmer and the bio-wheel.  I have well water which has been tested for and does not have chlorine or ammonia.  Do I need to use the Prime? <Not really.>
With my skimmer, I can adjust it so I get the correct foam in the  chamber but when I do, the collection cup fills up with water.  I  know that this will happen until the skimmer "breaks in" but in the mean time, do I let it fill up the collection cup with water or do I turn it down so that doesn't happen.  <I would probably turn it down just so I don't accidentally flood the house, but really not a big deal either way.>  Also, if I do let it fill the  collection cup, can I just dump the water back in the tank do I throw it out and add new?  <Pitch it and refill.>
With my well water, I have an in-well aeration system to condition the water.  I believe I have pure water in my house except for the fact that it is hard water.  I do not want to add a RO/DI unit unless I have to.  <I'm a big fan of these and think most all tanks can benefit from, but time will tell if you "really" need one.>  Is it possible to have my house water tested and if so,  what do I test for that I should be concerned about for my aquarium?  <Beyond Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and phosphate total dissolved solids (TDS) is a general indication of how much "stuff" is in the water.>
Finally, I want to set up a Rubbermaid container to store premixed water.  Do I need a powerhead and an aerator or just one or the other?  <Either or, both are not needed.>
Thanks for all your help and info.
Mike
<A quick comment on your stocking if I may, 3 clowns will run into problems in the future most likely, really should only be kept in pairs in this sized tank.  Also a flame angle needs a much larger tank, likes to have swimming room.  But keep on reading and learning and you will be fine.>
<Chris>

Cycling Questions - 02/09/2007
Hi,
<Hello there>
I just setup a new 32 gallon tank with built in sump/skimmer and fuge.  I added 26 pounds of Bali live rock that I picked up at a local store, and have about a 3-4 inch deep sand bed.  Fuge has maybe 4 - 5 inches and only has mangroves as of now (left over from old setup - have some Chaetomorpha coming hopefully tomorrow).  I have the displays 165 Watt power compacts running 12 hours a day... Since I couldn't find Bio-Spira locally I purchased Nitromax marine which "supposedly" instantly cycles the tank (which I don't believe).  I have added it ever 2 days as the bottles have instructed. Last Friday I added some food to see if I could get an ammonia reading, and sure enough when I did a water test on Sunday (2 days later - missed Saturday), I had ph 8.0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10, ammonia .25, SG 1.025 On Monday and Tuesday I also did water tests, and now the readings are pH 8.3, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, ammonia 0.  SG 1.025. Should I try to add more food to feed the bacteria?
<Mmm, I'd add a smidgen more... a pinch... and test the next day...>
Should I stop using Nitromax?
<I'd use it if you still had some...>
At this point how long do you think until I introduce a fish to the tank (I have 4 that are dying to get into a real aquarium - sadly they are all that's left from my old setup - but that's a long story that I sent an email to the crew about a few weeks ago :) )
<I'd move them now>
I am now seeing some algae growth on the LR now
<Ah, another good sign>
- and still I am seeing feather duster worms, unknown worms, amphipods, some white anemone with a bright green center lodged in a hole in the live rock, etc.  Thanks for your help.
<Oh! The mangroves and the rest of the existing non-fish material very likely brought enough nitrification along with them... BobF>

First Marine Tank/Cycling Protocol/Patience - 01/28/07
Hi,
<<Hi Joanne x...hmm...any relation to Jason X? [grin]  Sorry…couldn’t resist>>
I have spoken to Tom before regarding my existing FW tank.
<<And excellent advice received, I'm sure>>
I have been given another 180-litre tank and after some research and a lot of time reading on your site I have decided I would like to convert it to a marine tank.
<<Neat!>>
I have priced up the equipment I need which is decidedly cheaper than a marine tank <<...?>>, and understand what order I need to do things in to cycle the tank etc, (mostly learned here!).
<<Excellent!>>
My question is that I have been told that after the tank has been cycled, before I can add any fish, that I have to take the tank right down,
<<Huh?>>
replace all the water and rinse the filters,
<<What?>>
is this correct?
<<Not in my opinion>>
I may be wrong, but to me this goes against everything I have done or learned and would defeat the object of cycling?
<<Possibly, yes>>
I would appreciate your advice.
<<Well Joanne, I would not do what you have just described.  After the tank cycles, I would merely do a large "partial" water change (say 30-percent) and clean/replace any "mechanical" filter media>>
Many thanks in advance.
Joanne x
<<A pleasure to assist Joanne.  And let me leave you with this thought...  Once the tank is cycled, consider letting it go fishless for some months (6-12 if you can stand it!).  This allows much micro-/macro-fauna to proliferate/establish sustainable colonies in the absence of piscine predators.  Honestly, you will find the life that emerges/develops from the live rock, in the absence of fishes, to be every bit as fascinating to observe.  Cheers, Eric Russell>>

Re: First Marine Tank/Cycling Protocol/Patience -  02/03/07
Hi all,
<<Hello Joanne>>
I have attached my earlier question below, I hope you can be of assistance again.
<<I will try...Eric here with you again>>
I just wanted to let you know that all your advice is greatly
appreciated  and not taken for granted.
<<I hope it proves useful to you>>
I now have the tank set up with an additional external filter to supplement the internal one, a protein skimmer and 20kgs of cured live rock.  So far I am really happy with how things are going and I have been fortunate that my local aquatics store owner is more interested in making sure my tank is successful than selling me items I don’t need!
<<Ahh...excellent!>>
I wanted advice on some things I have seen swimming round in the tank today, I have managed to catch hold of one of them and they appear to be tiny shrimp, the store owner gave me some of his own
mature live rock to kick start the tank and I am assuming they hitched a ride on this as he has skunk(?) shrimp in his tank.
<<Mmm, hitchhikers yes...but though not impossible, I doubt these are Lysmata amboinensis.  I think it is much more likely what you have discovered is a "Mysid shrimp."  These are small shrimp-like crustaceans found in most any marine system in varying densities based on habitat/refuge and presence/density of predators.  It's a beneficial detritivore as well as a tasty and nutritious treat for many larger tank inhabitants>>
Will they be okay whilst the tank is cycling or am I likely to lose them all?
<<Populations tend to wax and wane...even if they seemingly disappear, they will likely turn up again>>
Also, I was planning to add a few hermit crabs in the next few week as clean up crew, but I have been reading a lot about them here this morning and am now in two minds as to whether they will be a useful addition to my tank, especially as I wasn't aware they needed a way to climb up for air and to dry out.
<<Huh?  Not the aquatic marine species utilized/sold in the hobby...you must have confused these with "land" hermits which are also sold/kept as "pets."  The popular marine hobby species (red-leg, blue-leg, etc.) are totally aquatic.  And it's up to you to decide but, do be aware these crabs are very opportunistic omnivores than can scour much/most of the emergent life from your live rock...yet still...very popular with many hobbyists>>
Thanks again,
Joanne
<<Happy to share.  EricR>>

Questions from a SW beginner - PART 2  1/2/07
Sorry to bother again, but just wanted to clear something up.
<Not a bother - no problem!>
In my last message you said to add some cocktail shrimp or fish food to help the nitrate and ammonia levels spike.  Will this hurt the 3 snails I have living on the live rock in the tank?
<Good point - I should have been more clear.  Since you have the snails already in the tank, I'd stick with the fish food method...just a little pinch per day.  And, since you already have livestock in the tank, cycling is a bit more challenging - while you do need to see a spike in the levels, as mentioned before, it's a bit of a catch-22, because livestock, obviously, don't like toxins.  Do measure the levels at least once per day, and do water changes as needed to bring the levels down.  While you'll be prolonging the cycle, you'll be saving the lives of your snails.  This is precisely why I prefer not to use livestock to cycle, as it makes things more complicated.  In any case, it can be done, with careful vigilance on your part.
Good luck, and Happy New Year! Jorie>
Thank you for you time.
Ryan

I have got major problems!  Instant Cycle a Tank With Bio-Spira  - 12/12/06
Thank God for your website!!
<We aim to please!>
The LFS around here are beyond sad!  Anyway, here are my problems...  please help! In taking a marine bio course at college we had to start up a 30 gal saltwater tank and maintain it for 4 months. It contained 3 fish (clown, damsel, fire), 1 banded coral shrimp, 2 algae conchs and other mollusks and a crab. However, at the end of the semester we were expected to take them home. I had 2 weeks to cycle a 55 gal tank. I used some of the water and substrate from the school tank and a chemical cycling product.  To top it off before bringing them home the fish got ich ( I suspect from the water the crab came with).  Of course now the ammonia and nitrate levels are very high.  I've been careful to keep the temp at a steady 80 and the water aerated.  I did a 10 gal water change yesterday and the levels are still high. Should I put in new carbon filters?  Help!  
<Whatever "chemical cycling product" you used, if it wasn't Bio-Spira (I'm assuming it's not, since you are having cycling problems), it will only hinder the cycling process.  Do a huge water change (80%) & add Bio-Spira to the filter.  Your cycling worries will be over!  In 2 weeks, you could have also done a fishless cycle with ammonia.  ~Pufferpunk>
Thank you, Jennifer B, Florida

Re: Bio-Spira  12/14/06
Thanks for the super fast response! I used Cycle by Nutrafin and followed directions for marine use. OK, so I'll get Bio-Spira, do an 80% water change and all fish and inverts will be ok?
<Yes, you need to remove the toxins in there.  Just be sure the SG, pH & temp are the same as the tank water.>  
Should I also put in new carbon filters?
<Wouldn't hurt>
I have a Skilter Filter 400. Also, the protein skimmer isn't getting any foam yet, I'm assuming that is normal since the tank is so new.  
<Get yourself a decent skimmer.  Skilters are junk!  In addition, that pad will collect nitrates on it.>
Thanks Pufferpunk!
<You're very welcome!  ~PP>

"Seeding" new filter media   11/26/07
Hi crew,
<Hi Dave, Mich here.>
I have a small tank with one of those Whisper filters that hangs inside the tank, where the filter media is just a flat floss envelope with some carbon inside.  It's getting time to change the floss envelope-- got all shredded from picking algae out of it.  I've got the new filter pack sitting in the side of the tank to "seed" with beneficial bacteria before I remove the old filter pack.  How long will the new filter pack take to accumulate enough bacterial growth to avoid problems when I remove the old one?  <I'd give it a couple of days if you can.>
Thanks,
-Dave

Serpent Star Woes/System Cycling - 11/13/06
OK, in the process of moving a 150gal from CT to RI. (yeah....fun)
<<Mmm, indeed>>
So I got a new 150gal, made all the salt water and let it clear up for a few days.  Then, I added about 2" of live sand and let that clear up for a day.  Then, added about 40lbs of live rock to get it started.  Water was clear, tested OK, so I started the move. First thing, about 100lbs of live rock from the old tank.  All was peachy.  Next day, another 50lbs of rock from the old tank, and some animals....(maroon clown, marine catfish, pajama cardinal, domino, coral banded shrimp, purple lobster, 2 huge serpent stars)
<<An "interesting" mix...do keep an eye on the catfish and the lobster as they are/will be real threats to the other tank inhabitants...and the domino will also turn out to be a real "terror of the tank" as it grows/matures>>
2 days go by, all are eating, all seems good.  Next day, both serpent stars (actually, one is a big green one with spiny legs. Looks like a cross between a serpent and a brittle) are rapidly deteriorating.
<<Uh-oh>>
Actually falling apart.
<<Ack!>>
What did I do wrong?
<<Hmm...my guess would be the tank is experiencing an ammonia spike/nitrogen cycle as a result of the move.  Makes sense to me that the Ophiuroids would be the first affected>>
Everything else seems to be fine.
<<For the moment, maybe>>
Do I move the rest of the animals?
<<I would.  And test the new setup (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate), leaving it to complete the nitrogen cycle if need be.  It is very likely moving of the old rock caused some die-off within, this, along with the fact you added some new rock...I'm not surprised the bacteria couldn't keep up>>
Please help.
<<Hope I have>>
Thanks in advance, you guys are very wise.
<<Kind words, thank you...we do our best>>
-Pat
<<Regards, EricR>>