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FAQs on Establishing Nutrient/Biological Cycling in Marine Systems, Methods/Techniques

Related FAQs: Biological Filtration, Seeding Filter Media, Live Rock/Sand, Using Livestock, Cycling Products: By Manufacturers/Names: Bio-Spira, Cycle...  Chemical Feeding, & Establishing Cycling 1, Establishing Cycling 2, Establishing Cycling 3, Establishing Cycling 4, Establishing 5, Establishing Cycling 6, Establishing Cycling 7, Marine Cycling 8, Marine Cycling 9, Marine Cycling 10, & FAQs on Biological Cycling: Science/Rationale, Anomalies/Fixing 1, Trouble/Fixing 2, & Fluidized Beds, Undergravel Filters/FiltrationDenitrification/Denitrifiers, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, Phosphates, & Nutrient Export,

Related Articles: Establishing Cycling, BioFiltration

Patience, time going by, ten, make that ten thousand deep breaths...

Biofilter... for <"aggressive nutrient uptake"> for <small> Biotope 6/1/2017
Hi Bob,
<Hey Greg>
I've been slowly putting together a Caribbean biotope over the past 6 months and am now sort of stuck. The thing is, I'd like to add some coral to give the tank some ''movement'' but mainly for aggressive nutrient uptake.
<Mmm; well, macroalgae are better for this... or a DSB; perhaps remoted in a sump/refugium; best w/ an RDP lighting arrangement. "Corals" (the groups hobbyists label many Cnidarians) are really low metabolism by and large; mostly skeleton biomass>
Based on what research I've done there doesn't seem to be any coral in the Western Tropical Atlantic that would meet my needs.
<Agreed; unless under quite specific circumstances>
Xenia is my favorite for nutrient uptake and aesthetics but obviously it's not found in the Caribbean. I know green star polyps can grow pretty quickly if the conditions are favorable - but would they be good for nutrient/dissolved organic control?
<Not really; no... and can/do produce allelopathogenic substances>
I'm very tempted to take some xenia from my other tank but keep fighting the urge so any suggestions/advice you might have would be greatly appreciated.
<Investigate what I've hinted at above... perhaps one, two macroalgal species in the main/display and/or a tied-in live sump>
Here's what's already in the tank: (10 gallon)
<Oh! This is a very small volume... hard to manage... should "something" go sideways (e.g. power outage, overfeeding, mysterious death....>

- 1 rusty goby (Priolepis hipoliti)
- 3 tiger gobies (Elacatinus macrodon)
- 4 scarlet reef hermits (Paguristes cadenati)
- 3 blue leg hermits (Clibanarius tricolor)
- 1 white claw hermit (Phimochirus operculatus)
- 2 green emerald crabs (small, about 1/2'' carapace)
- Halimeda opuntia
- 2 Ricordea mushrooms
- 2 Periclimenes pedersoni shrimp
-10 Nerite snails (Nerite virginea)
Thanks,
Greg
<One last time/repetition: I'd add a sump here... for many reasons... a DSB there, it's own illumination on an alternating light/dark cycle... the algal culture there. Bob Fenner>

Sponge filter        7/6/15
Hello crew,
<Mornin' Ed>
I am looking at starting a QT/Hospital tank and would like to seed a sponge filter that I have. Question is do I throw the sponge filter into my main display tank sump area below with the air pump attached or just set the sponge in main display sump without it running with the air pump?
<Yes; better w/ the air pump; but even w/o it will become populated w/ nitrifying bacteria in time>
I plan on leaving it there for 2-3 weeks.
Thanks,
Ed
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Cycling; SW      5/6/14
Hello,
<Steven>
I would like to enquire about this method of cycling a tank. Say I setup a 120 Gallon tank:
* with less than 1 inch of sand.
* some mix live rock and artificial rocks.
* Skimmer,
* no chiller (temperature is about 29-30 degrees C),
* run bio-pellets,
Run this tank until NO3 is 0 (assuming bio-pellets will do this last bit too)
<Should help>
or 5mg (Assuming this may take 2-3 months)
<Mmm; not this long... likely a few weeks>
Then only start stocking the tank with:
* 2 clown fish & Algae goby (once NO3 is 5mg)
* Yellow tang (a month after 2 clown fish and algae goby and NO3 is within 5mg)
* Sohal tang (a month after 2 clown fish and algae goby and NO3 is within 5mg)
<See WWM re... I would not use this Acanthurus species in this size (small) system... Gets to be very mean/territorial at times>
* Neon Dottyback & Royal Gamma (a month after the last addition and NO3 is within 5mg )
* Flame angel (2 months after the last addition and NO3 is within 5mg )
Will I experience?
* A major nitrogen cycle again and
<Shouldn't>
* Diatom stage
<Likely; yes>
Please advise the flaws of this approach or potential setbacks.
Thanks
Steven
<Should work out fine... Sub something else for the Sohal... perhaps a Ctenochaetus sp.... Thank you for sharing.
Bob Fenner>

Re: cycled WITHOUT a nitrate test?     6/13/13
Bob,..there are NO fish, as I'm cycling the tank.
Slight diatoms beginning to form.   Would this indicate a complete cycle?
<Yes; at least a completing one... I'd be adding a bit of protein daily here. B>
Thanks again!
Pam
Re: cycled WITHOUT a nitrate test?      6/14/13

Sorry Bob,.. but what? Add some protein?
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marcycseedf.htm
 Ahhhhhhhh
Are we talking about skimmers? Mine has been on since I set up.
PLEASE explain !
Thanks AGAIN!
Re: cycled WITHOUT a nitrate test?      6/14/13

Thanks for the link Bob,....unfortunately, I do not have another tank running, except the quarantine tank that is home to 2 damsels, a brittle star
AND  one large rock that was in the ORIGINAL tank,  that was destroyed by RTA.
So, nothing in this tank is good enough for my new set up, as I don't want any contaminates transferred.
Not the rock, not the filter media etc. Once the fish are out, all will be trashed and I'll start a new QT.
I'll wait a bit longer to be sure that the new tank is totally cycled, then transfer the above mentioned (oh so carefully).
Thanks for your time buddy!
<Welcome! B>

Belize System Zero Exchange    2/15/13
Have you ever heard of a Belize System Zero Exchange system based on heterotrophic rather than autotrophic bacteria? 
<Mmm, yes; have seen up-close/personal in Belize itself, read of over the years... developed commercially in the early 90's>
 I don't understand the science but supposedly this bacteria goes straight from Ammonia to biomass rather than going through the nitrate cycle.
<Well... a bit of oversimplification. Actually some of this heterotrophic pathway goes on in aquariums, particularly ones that are purposely "fed" carbon>
 I was curious if this is just freshwater (lots of references to commercial aquaculture on Google) but then at the same time there are references to marine shrimp ponds -  I assume that's saltwater??? 
<Brackish to marine; yes>
Curious if such a system would work for a marine aquarium?
<It does indeed. Do Google the string "Belize System Zero Exchange system based on heterotrophic rather than autotrophic bacteria" and read a bit re... the commercial application can be applied to small captive systems.>
Thanks,
Mike
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Cycling a Tank - 10/04/12
Dear Guys,
<Jeff>
I have been having a debate with the boys from the TV series Tanked regarding tank cycling. They contend one can add fish to a brand new tank simultaneously so long as cultures are added to the water.
<Can be; esp. if the system is "large" compared w/ the fish>
From ATM: "You score a 50 here. Better than most with nitrifying bacteria!
Correct live sand doesn't cycle. Wrong..cultures do and easily."
<?>
I contend you have to wait at least 2-3 weeks before adding livestock to a new aquarium. Your thoughts? Are cultures sufficient?
<I'd wait also... there are too many "things" that settle, become better w/ time w/ "just new" set-ups... Better by far for all to wait at least a week after filling, testing a system, its components... to add purposeful livestock (and bacterial culture/s).>
Sincerely,
Jeff Shain
<Bob Fenner>

New Tank/Skimmer/Sump Set Up 9/26/11
<Hello Kristy>
If I take my 55 gallon tank that is now set up and cycled, and take the 100 lbs of live rock, the 3 inch of substrate, water and fish into my new 150 gallon tank and simply add more saltwater to fill the tank, am I cycled?
Will my fish be safe or will I go through another cycling process?
<It should, but it's not quite that easy. In removing the rock and substrate, a great deal of detritus is going to be stirred up creating a cloud which is not going to be appreciated by the animals.
The animals will need to be relocated to a holding system until the process is completed.
A better route to go would be to set up the new system with new substrate and seed the substrate with a few pounds of the old substrate along with the live rock. After a few days, and when water parameters are equal, with no trace of ammonia or nitrite present in the new system, you can starting by adding the hardiest livestock first, but would only add a couple per day. Monitor ammonia and nitrite in the new system on a daily basis and act accordingly if something
goes amiss. Since this is basically the same as moving a tank, you can find more related information here.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/movingaq.htm. James (Salty Dog)

Fishless Cycling 12/17/10
Hi Crew,
<Hello Richard>
I have a quick question on fishless cycling. I have a 225 gallon display tank connected to a 150 gallon sump. There is 150lbs of live rock and 100lbs of base rock spread between the two. In the display tank sits a 1" sand bed of mainly aragonite seeded with 40lbs of "live-sand" bought as a 40lb bag from my LFS. In the sump is a 6" DSB built using 200lbs of "live-sand" also bought from the LFS. My tank parameters sit at:
Salinity: 1.021
<If this is to be a reef system, I'd kick the SG up to 1.024-25>
Temperature: 79
pH: 8.0 (A little low - due to running cycle
without lights?)
<Likely because your RO water was not conditioned before adding the salt.>
dKH: 7 (Also a little low - my base water has been through a water softener and RO system before adding Salt which I think contributes to its low Hardness/Alkalinity.
<Likely, best to buffer the freshwater before mixing.>
About a week ago my LFS gave me about 3.5 cups of Ammonium Chloride as a kick start to a fishless cycle. I dumped this into my tank and saw my Ammonia rise to 4ppm as we had expected. The Ammonia stayed at 4ppm for about 48 hours, in which time I saw Nitrites rise to no more than 1ppm.
After 48 hours they both dropped to 0ppm and my Nitrates started to rise. They now sit at about 80ppm and I'm starting to see changes to the coralline algae that existed on the live rock, much of it has become
encrusted in a white substance which an internet search has led me to believe is the coralline algae dying off and renewing itself, and some other signs of growth though I have not notice any signs of green or
brown algae. I had kept my lights off for the cycling to this point in order to reduce the likelihood of green algae growth but have now turned them on in order to try and buffer the pH.
<Was the live rock cured before you bought it? If not, may be the reason your nitrates have risen or your test kit is just measuring total nitrogen (N) and not NO-3.>
My question though is this, should I continue to add Ammonium Chloride to the tank? My LFS says no, one time should be enough but my concern is that without a constant source of Ammonia the bacteria produced by the cycling will die and the tank will return to an inert state. I guess the die off from the live rock may produce enough ammonia to keep the cycle ticking over without me detecting it.
<I would add a couple of hardy fish rather than continue to add ammonium chloride.>
I'm interested to hear what you think my next steps should be? My thought is to go ahead and perform a large water change to control Nitrates.
<Need to control the source of the nitrates. See here and related articles found in the header.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm>
Then add Macro algae and cleaning/sifting crews into the both display and sump and see how the water handles the added bio-load.
<Mmm, is this a new set up? No mention of a skimmer, is really needed to control nitrates/dissolved nutrients.>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Richard Cullen
Re Fishless Cycling 12/17/10 - 12/21/10

James,
<Richard>
Sorry, I made the assumption that you'd assume a skimmer is present.
<Mmm, not if it isn't stated.>
I have a Super Reef Octopus 5000 internal skimmer in the sump and running, though I'm not extracting skimmate from the tank water on a daily basis but a couple of times a week.
I added buffer and performed a water change. My pH is now sitting at 8.3 and alkalinity has risen to 9 dKH. My nitrates are reading 40ppm with 0 nitrates and ammonia.
<"My nitrates are reading 40ppm with 0 nitrates and ammonia." ????>
My assumption was that the live rock was well cured before I bought it; there was some smell from it but not a lot and the ammonia and nitrite spikes I saw did not last very long.
<There can be die off depending on how long the rock was out of water during the transport.>
My thought was that the source of the nitrates was the result of the ammonia I've added and the die off from the live rock. My assumption is that I did not have a large population of bacteria established to process the nitrates and that it's simply taking time to get the last part of the cycle established. If the rock is the source of the nitrates (and except for nitrates in the salt or in the water I'm not sure what else it could be without livestock) then is it not simply a case of making water changes and waiting for the cycle to even itself out?
<Likely from die off, give it some time, your skimmer will help here but not overnight.>
I'm a little surprised because I expected to see more algae growth given the availability of nitrates but I'm not seeing any signs of undesirable algae yet.
<Good.>
It is a new set up; the system has been cycling for a couple of weeks only. I was surprised at how quickly the ammonia and nitrites were processed and guess I expected the nitrates to follow a similar pattern.
When you talked about conditioning the RO water do you mean heating and aging it before adding the salt? Or adding other chemical items such as pH buffer or alkalinity buffer?
<The later.>
I must admit that when I mix the salt I have done so to room temperature RO water which has been sitting in a holding tank for a few days before I use it. Once the salt has been added I heat the mix up to the tank temperature and have a pump constantly recycling the water in the saltwater reservoir. Should I be heating the water before adding the salt?
<If you are only changing 10% of the water or less, room temperature water shouldn't cause
any drastic drop in your display tank water temperature. May want to read here and related
articles. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/watchgantart.htm>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

Fishless Cycling 12/17/10
Hi Crew,
<Hello Richard>
I have a quick question on fishless cycling. I have a 225 gallon display tank connected to a 150 gallon sump. There is 150lbs of live rock and 100lbs of base rock spread between the two. In the display tank sits a 1" sand bed of mainly aragonite seeded with 40lbs of "live-sand" bought as a 40lb bag from my LFS. In the sump is a 6" DSB built using 200lbs of "live-sand" also bought from the LFS. My tank parameters sit at:
Salinity: 1.021
<If this is to be a reef system, I'd kick the SG up to 1.024-25>
Temperature: 79
pH: 8.0 (A little low - due to running cycle without lights?)
<Likely because your RO water was not conditioned before adding the salt.>
dKH: 7 (Also a little low - my base water has been through a water softener and RO system before adding Salt which I think contributes to its low Hardness/Alkalinity.
<Likely, best to buffer the freshwater before mixing.>
About a week ago my LFS gave me about 3.5 cups of Ammonium Chloride as a kick start to a fishless cycle. I dumped this into my tank and saw my Ammonia rise to 4ppm as we had expected. The Ammonia stayed at 4ppm for about 48 hours, in which time I saw Nitrites rise to no more than 1ppm.
After 48 hours they both dropped to 0ppm and my Nitrates started to rise. They now sit at about 80ppm and I'm starting to see changes to the coralline algae that existed on the live rock, much of it has become
encrusted in a white substance which an internet search has led me to believe is the coralline algae dying off and renewing itself, and some other signs of growth though I have not notice any signs of green or
brown algae. I had kept my lights off for the cycling to this point in order to reduce the likelihood of green algae growth but have now turned them on in order to try and buffer the pH.
<Was the live rock cured before you bought it? If not, may be the reason your nitrates have risen or your test kit is just measuring total nitrogen (N) and not NO-3.>
My question though is this, should I continue to add Ammonium Chloride to the tank? My LFS says no, one time should be enough but my concern is that without a constant source of Ammonia the bacteria produced by the cycling will die and the tank will return to an inert state. I guess the die off from the live rock may produce enough ammonia to keep the cycle ticking over without me detecting it.
<I would add a couple of hardy fish rather than continue to add ammonium chloride.>
I'm interested to hear what you think my next steps should be? My thought is to go ahead and perform a large water change to control Nitrates.
<Need to control the source of the nitrates. See here and related articles found in the header.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm>
Then add Macro algae and cleaning/sifting crews into the both display and sump and see how the water handles the added bio-load.
<Mmm, is this a new set up? No mention of a skimmer, is really needed to control nitrates/dissolved nutrients.>
Thanks,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Richard Cullen

Live Rock Substitute/Denitrification 3/27/10
hello.
<Hello Brent>
I have a question.
<OK>
I have a 150 gallon aquarium [72x24x20] It is about 1/2 full of live rock.
I have a large trigger and a large king angel as well as a larger tang. The problem is they need larger holes and more swimming room. I was thinking of selling off some of the rock and getting larger pieces and using less rock. But I use the live rock for filtration. Is there any thing I could use as a substitute for the live rock that I will get rid of. I seen an ad for Seachem's matrix bio media and it claims to do the same as live rock [nitrifying and denitrifying bacterias] I was wondering if any of you guys have had any experience with this product or any other ideas for a live rock substitute
<I have not personally used this product, but will work well for denitrification in a sump tray or canister type filter where water is flowing through the product.
James (Salty Dog)>

Skimming during Tank Cycle? -- 01/13/2010
Crew,
<Gary>
Just a quickie my tank is on about day 5 of the cycle, no spike yet.
<The fun's just starting...>
Should I be running my skimmer or not while it is cycling.
<Your choice -- I personally would. The more you limit the nitrogenous wastes in the tank, the less die-off you'll likely experience as the live rock establishes itself.>
Thanks in advance
Gary.
<Glad to help, Gary! Enjoy, and good luck! -JustinN>

Cycling Large Store Systems 9/29/2009
Hello WWM Crew!
<Chris>
Sorry if this has been covered previously, your website has such a huge amount of useful information that sometimes it is extremely hard to find very specific things.
<How might we improve?>
I am in the process of building a retail tropical fish store in Southern California and was wondering if you had any tips or tricks to help me have a completely cycled system for my store. I will be setting up centralized filtration(cold, fresh, salt, coral) and will have a total of about 3000 gallons spread across all of my store tanks. Unfortunately the water is one of the last things that will be going in, and if possible I would
rather not wait a month(or two or three) for my tanks to fully cycle. Now the health of my livestock is a priority but I was wondering in your experience, do you know of any ways to overcome the cycle?
<Yes>
I was thinking of possibly asking some of my livestock suppliers in LA if I could give them a fluidized bed filter top put on some of their systems for awhile to populate some bacteria colonies, do you think they would do this or do you think this would be adequate for not having to cycle my system?
Is there anyway around this with such a large system?
<I would go the "Blitzkrieg" route here... Use commercial prep.s ("One and Only", MicrobeLift, SeaChem's line...) AND old filter media, substrate... and a source of ammonia...>
What have you guys done when opening up a new store?
<Oh yes>
Any input would be great and I appreciate all that you guys do for the hobby!
Thanks,
Chris
<Welcome, and congratulations on your new store. Bob Fenner>

Re: Cycling Large Store Systems 9/29/2009
Bob,
<Chris>
Thanks for the quick reply!
<Welcome>
I don't think you could improve it, you've just got what seems like more raw information on your website than the rest of the net combined! It's like your website is connected directly to all of your years of experience, so much good information for the hobby!
<Thank you... I realize of course the breadth or maybe scope of our interest is large... taking in business, science, hobby, engineering... Plumbing, carpentry, electrical... diving, photography, ethical issues... And have a good working knowledge of how the materials can/might be organized... Akin to my file cabinets and hard drives... But am always open for input re further improvements>
So would you recommend one product over another, or use all of them in combination?
<I like the Tim Hovanec product (either perturbation) best...>
Also, for old filter media, I don't currently have a large enough salt water system to get older media from, I currently only have 3 nano systems in my tiny apartment all running Berlin method, what would you recommend for older media for my salt systems?
<A visit to the wholesalers... ordering a few boxes of their "best cured rock">
I have larger fresh water systems to get media off of so thy won't be a problem.
And for ammonia, I don't want to subject livestock to high ammonia and nitrite levels, so to create more ammonia what would you recommend? Raw shrimp from the market? Household ammonia? Or would it be fine to add hardy fish in along with the bacteria products?
<Endogenous or not... just not more than 1.0 ppm total free ammonia. Likely one "dose" will do it>
Thanks again for your help,
Chris
<Be seeing you, BobF>

Nitrogen cycle speeding up 01/17/09 Hello. I am trying to set up a new tank, as I mentioned before, and I am trying to get fishes in it as soon as possible. <You really shouldn't try to rush these things.> So I needed to know if there was a way to speed up the nitrogen cycle for the aquarium. <There are some products that *claim* to do such. They often claim to be bacteria cultures that supposedly speed up the cycling process. However, I doubt they work. I've tried some of them myself and they just don't seem to work. Maybe the advance the cycle a few days, but not by much. There are other products that remove nitrates and nitrites. These might actually slow down the cycle.> If there is please let me know. Thanks a bunch. <I do advise you just try to be patient. Best, Sara M.>

SW Cycling - 3/10/2006 Hello there, <<Hello Tiffani.>> I have a quick question (the set up into it is a bit longer).  Well, at least I hope it has a quick answer.  I have been cycling my 46 gallon bow front with about 40 lbs of live rock for very close to 4 weeks now.  My ammonia level is .25 ppm.  In fact, it has been at that level since I began testing the water parameters, which I began 3 days after my initial set-up.  I saw the huge spike in nitrites, which has since dropped to 0 and has been there for a little over 2 weeks.  My nitrates have been hanging out at 20 ppm as well.  They were much higher at one point, but at the 20 ppm level for about 2 weeks.  I have done several water changes, as I have read that can lower the nitrate level, however, no such luck.  My question is, should I still be registering ammonia if the nitrites are clearly 0?  My impression of the whole cycling process was that ammonia is converted into nitrites, then they into nitrates.  I just assumed since the nitrite was 0, the ammonia would be as well.  My SG has been 1.022 all along.  The temperature has been steady at 78-79 degrees.  I am wondering if it could be my test kit giving me a false positive on the ammonia.   I am using the Marine Lab by Red Sea. <<This could be the issue, of you could be experiencing additional die-off in the live rock.  Do buy another brand of test kit, and have your LFS test your water, to ensure the accuracy of the reading.  Also, have you checked your source water?  Test the water you add to the tank, to see if this is the source of ammonia you are seeing.>> I am anxious to get started with adding some livestock, but patient. <<A virtue in this hobby of ours.  You will thank yourself later!>> Thank you in advance for your time and for maintaining such a thorough and wonderful website.  It is much appreciated. Sincerely, Tiffani Tobin <<You are quite welcome. Glad to help. Lisa.>> SW Cycling II - 3/12/2006 Thank you very much Lisa. <<You're welcome!>> I will purchase a different test kit and see if I get different results.  Not to say that things are not dying off on the LR, but there sure is a lot of life scurrying around on them.  I guess having ammonia readings then could mean there is additional die-off.  I had not thought about that.  Would I then expect to see an increase in nitrites, because I have not over the past 2 weeks? <<It is hard to say. Live rock often changes the typical cycling levels we would expect to see.>> I will be sure to have an LFS test my tank water too.  I will also pick up an ammonia test kit for freshwater and see what happens.   <<Yes, as your source water may in fact be the issue.>> Thanks again, Tiffani. <<You're welcome again! Lisa.>> SW Cycling III - 3/16/2006 Hello Crew, I guess since the replying back and forth, the initial email has gone off into cyberspace somewhere, but I still have a couple of questions.  I will try to sum up things in a Reader's Digest version.  I am now cycling for about 4 & 1/2 weeks.  I have been registering 0.25 ppm of ammonia for over 2 weeks with no change.  Nitrites have been a clear 0 for the same time (I did see the initial gigantic spike in the beginning of the cycling process, with the drop to 0).  Nitrates appear to now be a little less than 20 ppm, but not quite 10.  Anyway, I was (in a previous email) wondering if it could be my test giving me the false positive on the ammonia.  So, I went and bought a different test for ammonia, a dip test into a vial of tank water.  I have tested 4 times in the past 3 days and that is registering no ammonia levels.  I also purchased a SeaChem Ammonia Alert that suctions inside the aquarium for a constant level of ammonia.  That has been in place for 3 days as well, and that also shows no readable ammonia.  I just do not know how reliable that is.  I, of course, have no intention on relying on that alone in the future.  Should I believe that it is actually possible there is no ammonia and my tank may be cycled at this point? <<Yes.>> Two test methods would indicate yes.  If there is a problem with My Red Sea Marine Lab test kit for ammonia, do you think it is possible all other results are inaccurate regarding other parameters? <<If ever in doubt, use a secondary test/method.>> Sorry, I think I have bordered on a novel version. <<Not a problem, it helps me remember the original question, when it is not attached.>> I am sorry, one more question.  Reading through your site about water for the tank...I want to clarify something if I can.  If I allow water (for top off or salted for a water change) to sit in a container with a power head and thermometer for at least a week, does it then NOT NEED a dechlorinator? <<The chlorine will gas off over time, but other harmful substances will remain.  I use Prime, by Seachem.>> Thank you so much in advance for your time with this matter.  Do you ever just feel like slapping people like me? <<Not at all! Lisa.>>  

Small marine system cycling Hello, I am a newbie trying not to kill any more fish. To make a long story very short, the Aquarium was a reward for my daughter being potty trained. Needless to say it has almost become an obsession for me. We/I started out with a freshwater tank... four fish and all was well. Added four more and one was very ill. The girl at PetSmart said the female was pregnant... not so and killed the tank. Daughter was very confused about the explanation. Four hundred dollars more and researching facts, we decide to go with a Marine Tank. I set the 30 Gallon tank up with filtration, protein skimmer, and heater for a 100 gallon tank. Moving and heating water is not a concern. I stock the tank with 10lbs of "live sand" and use another 10lbs of gravel. I then add Real Ocean water from PetCo and use some bacteria accelerator products. Three weeks later after daily testing of the water...I add four fish (two Yellow Tail Damsels and two Tomato Clowns). Everything seems to be going well. The daily water tests are great and I think I have the whole thing down. I now have a problem... four weeks after the addition of the fish, all holy hell is going on with the chemistry of the water. It appears the tank is cycling (ammonia climbed then declined and nitrite has risen substantially). This seems normal, but I have a few questions (and fears): 1. Does this sound normal? <Happens> 2. How long before the nitrite lowers and the nitrate rises? <Likely a few weeks> 3. I have changed the water weekly (20%) Do I need to change it more? <Only if ammonia or nitrite exceeds 1.0 ppm or your fishes appear in dire trouble... changing the water may well forestall the establishment of cycling> 4. The tank now has what I can best guess as Diatoms (brown/golden) and should they go away soon? <Will, with the cycle, time going by... replaced by other types... greens> 5. Am I being overly paranoid...should I let the cycle take due course? <A bit of both> Your help is greatly appreciated, and the fish stand a better chance of surviving. I have spent more money on chemicals and not used them with a fear of waking up to the horror of trying to explain to my daughter what happened. I did use an ammonia Detox after I felt the readings were too high. Sincerely... Tom <Take your time here... read, on WWM, the Net re cycling... Bob Fenner>

Re: New Tank Thanks for the fast response... the fish are fine and the tank is maturing. So far the Ammonia levels are at zero... but the nitrite is a little high and the nitrate is climbing. For a beginner it seems all is well with the tank cycle. I am getting used to this fascinating hobby. I think after the nerves settle, a 75 gallon tank is in order. It appears I like this more than my daughter likes looking at the fish...maybe a tie... Tom <Perhaps a fish theme tie... Bob Fenner> 

Lighting after cycle Hello.. excellent website.. Ok I started cycling my 55 gallon reef tank on May 10 and on the third day the ammonia peaked and then started to drop down.. then on the sixth day the nitrite peaked to 5 ppm and then dropped to .50 ppm the next day (what up with the sudden drop?) >>It means you've got bacteria establishing VERY quickly. >I'm cycling with LR and live sand >>Well, THAT would explain the sudden drops! >CPR protein skimmer r2, and I have a built in wet dry filtration.. it seems my tank is almost done cycling. >>Yep. Once ammonia and nitrite are zero, and nitrate begins coming up, I'd call it cycled, too. >Now my question is how long can I go w/out light or can I because I ordered my pc lighting system through the internet and it still hasn't arrived.. (it should have been delivered already) and now I'm starting to get worried! >>Unless you have photosynthetic specimens (and at this stage you better not!), there is absolutely no need for lighting. >What should I do in this situation? >>Call the company you bought your lights from, and call the shipper, and be a squeaky wheel. (They've probably arrived by now.) >One more question.. my substrate is 1 1/2 inches and I want to add like an inch more.. can I add live sand during or after the cycle and will it mess with the cycle or the wet dry filter, or should I wait till all the sand reach the bottom before I get the filter starting again? >>Won't do a thing to the w/d, I'd add it to the live sand now, in bits, over sections of the sand, say, 1/3 every few days. Test to see if it's causing any spikes (though I doubt it will). You can seed it a little faster by using Bio-Spira then adding some fish food or raw shrimp to the tank to cause another nitrogenous spike. >I'm planning to add 20 more lbs... thanks your guys opinion means a lot to me.. thanks again.. James >>And there you have it. All should be going well at this point. Marina 

Help With Cycling Fishless for Newbie >Dear Bob, >>Hello Nahid, Marina is answering for Bob today. >I am a new beginner for marine aquarium.  Sir  I like to know that I have been never success in keeping a marine aquarium.  Sir very often when I mix the marine salts, the nitrite level goes up and all of a sudden comes below.    >>I am not familiar with sea salt mixes that can cause nitrite levels to go up on their own.  However, I believe you need to become more schooled on nitrification.  This is where one kind of bacteria "eats" ammonia, and makes it into nitrite, then anther kind of bacteria "eats" the nitrite and makes it nitrate.   >What you want to see will go something like this (when you test) 1: high ammonia 2: high nitrite 3: ammonia begins to drop 4: nitrite begins to drop and nitrate begins to rise 5: nitrite drops and you get higher nitrate readings >>High nitrate are then controlled in several ways, simplest for beginners is water changes. >But when I started adding fishes, they  died one by one. >>You may be adding fishes that are too big, or you are adding them too fast and they die of the high ammonia and/or nitrite.  This is not uncommon. >But from books I read to use ammonium chloride during the time of cycling and amount of ammonium chloride is not mentioned to be used.   Can you help me out what quantity of ammonium chloride to be used per gallon.  I will be very much thankful. Yours sincerely, Nahid , India. >>Better yet, and much easier for you, is to put a piece of raw shrimp, crab, or fish (some fresh seafood) into the tank and allow it to rot (many people like to tie it up in a piece of women's nylon hose or a piece of white cotton cloth).  Then, after two or three days you will  begin to test the water.  Watch for the rising and falling as I've outlined above.  When you have ZERO ammonia and nitrite, you will know you have bred cultures of nitrifying bacteria.  Then, when you add your fish, ONLY add one at a time, and we do encourage quarantine (search our Google bar for "quarantine").  I must note that I do not know the size of your tank, nor your filtration, so I cannot recommend what fish to keep, nor in what order to introduce them.  These are very important considerations as well.  I hope this is helpful information.  Marina

Patience Is The Most Important Additive! Hi Scott <Hi there!> I had my water tested a few days ago and here are the readings Ammonia : 10-20 Nitrate : 0-10 Nitrite - 0.1-0.25 PH - around about 8 <Sounds like a normal tank start-up/cycle. Just hang in there and be patient as the tank cycles...> Please comment on my readings. Looking at these readings how much longer do u think I should wait before I could possibly add fish. <Hard to say, as every tank cycles differently; it can take as little as 10 days, or as much as 3 weeks. Unfortunately, nature is one of those things that we impatient humans cannot rush! It will not be safe to add fishes until the ammonia and nitrite return to undetectable levels.> I have cut down the water changes to once a week and I was thinking of testing again this coming w'end and the next w'end. Do u think another 2 weeks will do? <Don't do any more water changes until the tank finishes cycling. At this point- less is more...Do nothing...It's important not to mess with things now!> Thanks Again Regards Ziad Limbada <You're right where you want to be, Ziad. Just be patient, monitor the water parameters every several days, and things should continue just fine! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Saltwater tank cycling... >Greetings! >>And salutations, Marina this morning. >I have been reading your website religiously for the last two weeks and I am amazed at the time and effort that the staff puts into answering readers' questions. >>He.. hoo are WE!   >I am a newbie to the saltwater world, and recently my roommates and I set up a 50 gallon (4 sq ft surface area) tank. The substrate is 2/3 crushed shell with a "mini-beach" of live sand (3 inches deep) taking up the other third of the aquarium. There are approximately 20 lbs of the branch-style live rock with purple, red, and white coralline algae. We have a Berlin air lift protein skimmer (with prodigious skimmate produced), a 360 gph paddle-wheel-and-activated charcoal filter, and a supplemental air stone to provide additional aeration and water movement. Our tank has been up and running for two weeks now with a four very small fish that are active, colorful, feeding, and healthy-looking. We also have 5 hermit crabs, and two snails of the Turbo persuasion.  Our nitrite level peaked, and nitrate is now at 0.2. However, in the last several days, our nitrite has begun to rise again and our tank has a lush covering of brown algae. After reading your FAQs, I understand that this is probably of diatomaceous origin. I suspect that we are overfeeding and keeping our lights on too long, and we have recently taken measures to control this.  I was wondering:  Is algae grown indicative of completion of a nitrite/nitrate cycling, or does it comprise its own cycle? >>No, algal growth is indicative of excess nutrients, light being one of them.  Nitrate is a nutrient, as are phosphates, and dissolved organic compounds (DOC's). >Will the oxygen saturation of the water decrease as these brown algae cycle out? >>Yes, but with the water movement you describe it would be negligible. >Is it now safe to perform a water change of 10-20%? >>With the peaks you describe, and assuming you haven't made any water changes, I would suggest a 50% change, with no vacuuming or disturbance of the substrata.  Do know that the shell substrate *will* accumulate detritus.  I recommend a serpent star or two to help with this.  Also, once the tank is well on its way, I recommend vacuuming the substrate of shell with each water change--1/3 at a time. >Aside from stopping the overfeeding/shortening the light exposure, are there any other means of controlling the algae this early in our tank's life?   >>You could try something like a tuxedo urchin, though they're more known for helping eradicate hair algae.  I could suggest abalone, but they are voracious feeders of the algae.  Let the diatom bloom do what lemmings do, it will eventually starve itself out.  If you are not living in a state with restrictions on Caulerpa (in California we are allowed NO feathery fronded species), then that can be used quite effectively as a natural means of outcompeting the diatoms for nutrients. >What types of algae-controlling organisms will not compete with the lawnmower (Jeweled) blenny that we have our eyes on? >>See above.  Do hope this helps!  Best of luck McGregor.  Marina

When is cycling finished? Steven, <David Dowless answering this evening> Sorry to be such a pest, but I'm just a newbie to the Saltwater tanks and there's soooo much to learn.   <And unfortunately...no one will ever be able to learn all of it!> As for my tank equipment in addition to the UGF, I also have a BioWheel and 10lbs. of live rock.  Will my nitrates still continue to be high?   <The UGF and BioWheel will both work to create nitrates. I would add more live rock and a protein skimmer.> It's only a 20gal. tank, and I'm obsessive about topping off water, making sure the temp is right, etc.  It's been up and running for 6 weeks now, and I thought the initial "cycle" would be done by now.  Am I wrong?    <No way to tell unless you've been running ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests. THESE TESTS ARE A NECESSITY if you want to be successful in this hobby. There is no hard and fast rule about cycling although I would guess your tank should be about finished. Test the water. When you finally begin to add fish do it very slowly, one at a time and feed lightly> I know I have to keep up with the water changes, but I thought that since the tank is new and still cycling that I shouldn't do any changes in the water until all the parameters were within normal limits.  I've spent hours and hours at this website (usually late night) and sometimes the more I read, the more confused I become.  Everybody you talk to seems to have a different opinion so that's why I'm writing again.  Hope you don't mind. <I don't exactly agree about this last point. There are differing opinions on the best lighting, the best filtration, fish that are compatible etc. But some things in this hobby are known as fact. For example...the cycling event that you speak of has been well documented for many decades and we all know there is no preset time for cycling to stop. The event is ammonia, then nitrite then nitrate. The CMA book (by Fenner) shows a time line of 36-48 days...but there are no guarantees. Patience my friend> I just want to make sure that I'm doing everything right.   <Knowledge is the key to success in this hobby. You're on the right track. Keep reading and learning. Eventually you will have enough "opinions" that you will be able to decide what makes sense for yourself> I also have one more quick (promise) question for you.  Should I wait to add some new additions (in particular a cleaner shrimp) until my nitrates drop?   <My friend you need to keep reading. Shrimps of any kind would never be my first choice of critter in a brand new tank. They're very sensitive to water quality> Thanks bunches. <It's an honor to serve. David Dowless> Maureen

Trigger and ammonia Bob, <Rob> After about 1 week now, the ammonia level in the new tank is near 1ppm and the nitrite level is at about 0.2ppm.  I am planning on doing about a 15 to 20% water change tomorrow. <I would wait on this... unless there is some compelling reason... the change will too-likely produce a "metabolic check" on your nitrifying microbes... forestalling the establishment of nitrogen cycling... Wait till both ammonia and nitrite are zero> I have not turned on the skimmers in the new tank (b/c I was advised to leave them off during the first month). <Mmm, I advise you to turn on your skimmer/s> Given the current situation, would it be wise to turn them on to remove some of the pollutants from the water? <Yes> Thanks again for all your help. <You're welcome. Bob Fenner> Rob Stein.

Will Elevating Temperature Hasten Cycling?... Hi Bob, I have a new tank with live rock .Its still cycling, can I raise the temp to 84F to make the bacteria grow faster or does doing that would affect the living organisms on the rocks ( there is a lot of invertebrates)? Thank You. <Good question... don't know... but worth experimenting... There is likely an "ideal temperature/range" for doing just this... If your rock hails/hailed from a more tropical setting, perhaps it will cycle faster through the process at an elevated temperature. Do take care to be even more careful in monitoring water quality... adding alkalinity, making requisite water changes... Bob Fenner>

Speeding the Cycling Process Hi Bob, I have a new tank with live rock. It is still cycling. Can I raise the temp to 84F to make the bacteria grow faster or does doing that affect the living organisms on the rocks (there is a lot of invertebrates)? Thank You <I would not recommend raising the temperature to quicken the cycling. You will be better off learning patience now. -Steven Pro>

Question About Tank Cycling Hi Bob, I have a question about the cycling of my newly setup 125 gallon saltwater tank which I will use for fish only. I have never had a saltwater tank before, so if some of these questions sound off the wall, sorry. Here's my situation: I purchased this tank used from a private individual whom previously had it setup as a freshwater tank (but also had it setup as a reef tank before that). He drained it and tore it down just two days before I purchased it. With it he gave me a huge Tupperware container full of the gravel mixture that he already had in it (it was a 50/50 mixture of gravel and crushed coral). I took it home and set it up the next day using most of his gravel plus 30lbs of new crushed coral that I rinsed thoroughly. I added one damsel the next day, and then 14 more one week later.  <Fourteen? Ten plus four?> It has now been one week since I have added the 14 damsels to the tank, or 2 weeks since the first damsel was introduced. I have tested the water every day since I added the 14 damsels, and I continually get the following results: pH - 8.2, Ammonia - .25, Nitrite - .5, Nitrate - 20. I have been very confused about the readings because everything I have read about nitrogen cycling says that your ammonia should shoot clear in the first 10 days then drop to 0, followed by a spike in nitrites then drop to 0, followed by an increase in Nitrates. <Nah... many variations on the theme here. Your readings are likely accurate> I have begun to wonder whether or not my tank has cycled already?  <Some> I read something that said to speed up your cycling you could go to a pet store and ask for a cup of gravel out of an already established tank. Well, after reading that I thought about it and I did put in approximately 75-100lbs of gravel mixture out of an established tank. Could this be the reason? Is it possible it has already cycled?  <Yes, and partially cycled> Would it matter that the gravel mixture came out of a freshwater tank and not a saltwater tank?  <Oh yes... different bacteria involved... and a bit of a "population check" (caesura, slow down) in the big move> The gravel did sit in a Tupperware container for 2-3 days (there was a lot of moisture in the container). Would this kill the bacteria? <A good deal of them, yes> Two days ago I fed the fish more than the usual amount because I read that that would generate more ammonia than normal. I then tested the tank the next day (yesterday) and the ammonia was still at .25. Well, what do you think? I am in dire need of a professional opinion. I want to buy some different fish, but I want to be sure that I am not going to kill them by putting them in too soon. Do you think it is safe or should I wait a little longer? <Do wait... a few weeks more till the ammonia and nitrite have been zero for a while. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm and the FAQs links there> Now that I got my main question out of the way, I have a few more that aren't as important. The lady that runs the only pet shop around here (only one within 220 miles) won't buy damsels back. So, I'm wondering if it will be safe to add other fish to the damsels or if I should get rid of some or all of the damsels first. <Depends on what species they are, your desires> I would like to keep them if I could since they cost me 6.95 each, but I will give them away if I have to (or maybe make a quarantine tank and put them in there for a while?). I plan to add some clowns and tangs or something. What do you think? <That you need to think, study, develop a stocking plan... read through WetWebMedia.com here> What fish would you recommend. I really like the maroon clown because it looks awesome, but I understand that it is very aggressive and would make it difficult to add smaller fish later. Is this correct? Also, I read about the need to give new fish a freshwater bath before adding them to a new tank. I do not have any other tanks, so I am wondering how I should go about this. Is it okay to put sink water in a pitcher and just add water conditioner to get rid of the chlorine? Will it work to use this as a 10 minute freshwater bath or do I need something more elaborate? <Acclimation protocols, others experiences are detailed on WWM> Well, that is all I can think of for now. I did not intend for my questions to be so long, sorry about that. Any advise you can give me about my situations will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your response and thank you for your wonderful website! It has been a huge help! -Scott <And will be more so with your help. Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Power filters and protein skimmers Bob, How are you doing? <Fine, you?> I am new to marine aquariums. I have a 75 gal tank that I am setting up to be a marine tank. I have 100 lbs of Live Rock, and 80 lbs of Live Sand. I would like to use HOT filters and skimmers to keep the cost down. I currently have a TetraTec PF500 power filter and a RedSea Prizm protein skimmer. I wanted to know what you thought about these 2 products, if you had reviewed them and how do these 2 products compare with similar products? <Fine products. Very good for what they're designed for> I had originally filled the tank and then added the uncured Fiji live rock about 3 weeks ago. I then read that Tetra had a new power filter to replace the Whisper 5 that I got with the tank, so I exchanged the original filter with the TetraTec. I then tested the water and the Nitrite and Nitrate readings were very high. So I did about a 80% water change 2 days ago and installed both filters (TetraTec and Prizm). <... eighty percent is way too much... better to do smaller changes... wait off on all during your "run in period". Please read over the set-up, establishing biological filtration sections on the marine index on WetWebMedia.com here> I was going to wait about a week and test the water again before I start putting fish or invertebrates into water. <Mmm, wait about a week after your nitrites go to zero... or more to try a hardy invertebrate> I read your book and thought it was wonderful. Are there any monthly magazines that you would recommend so I can keep up with the technology changes and other interesting news about marine animals for my tank? <Yes... as a matter of fact all three of the national monthlies: AFM, FAMA, TFH... their URLs et al. from there can be found: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/links.htm in the middle top of our links page. Bob Fenner> Thank you, Tom Schumacher

Cycling Question Greetings, I wanted to know about a cycling issue. I put about 160lbs of Fiji rock into my 125 about 2 weeks ago. It was curing at the LFS for I am not sure how long, maybe a week or two. I have been running a protein skimmer for about 10 days and using activated carbon. I never really was able to read ammonia, but about 5 days ago, the nitrites were around 5 and nitrates over 20. Two days ago, the ammonia was still 0, the nitrites were around .1 and the nitrates were around 15. Today the nitrites are at .01 (Salifert low level test) and the Nitrates are at 2-5 (Salifert). I also have a DSB with about 100lbs of aragonite and 60lbs of live sand. It seems that the live rock has cured as indicated by the low levels of nitrites. Question is when should I begin adding inhabitants? <Give it a week just to be sure your water quality is stable.> I was thinking of first adding a cleanup crew, then a few Percs, then a few soft corals over the next month or two. When would you suggest adding the snails, crabs, and other inverts for the cleanup crew? <Go ahead and add them first to help control algae.> How long after that would you add the Percs? <The longer you wait the more copepods, amphipods, mysids, etc. you will have scurrying around your tank. A month would be fine, but longer is better for the diversity and population of infauna. Thanks! Adam <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Use of Ammo-lock and other Ammonia detoxifiers Hello Mr. Fenner! <Howdy> It's been a while since I've emailed you, but that is attributable to the fact that I use your book, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" as my marine tank bible. It answers the vast majority of my questions! However, I'm in the midst of a debate that I'm having a hard time settling. <Perhaps there is no such settlement to be had> Today I've got a question on someone else's behalf regarding the use of Ammonia detoxifiers, such as Ammo-lock. This person setup their 75 gallon aquarium and added fish prior to cycling (I've had great success with fishless cycling on my tanks). They were told by their LFS that the live rock and live sand would not be sufficient to cycle the tank, and that they needed to add fish.  <Mmm, I do disagree... the LR, LS are fine on their own> Well, they did, the ammonia spiked, the fish began dying, and the LFS person told them to use Ammo-lock. They did this and, now, after seeing a spike in Nitrites and a gradual rise in Nitrates, they're experiencing a second, HEAVY ammonia spike. <To be expected... the product by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals is fine for what it is intended for... but this does NOT include forestalling the establishment of biological cycling> Now, I understand that Ammo-lock is supposed to convert NH3 to NH4, which is less toxic to fish, but that it should not prevent the accumulation of Ammonia in the tank. <Actually... this product does not do this> I also understand that it will skew test results. <Can, yes, some types of tests> Personally, I've always been of the opinion that, chemically speaking, less is more, and that water changes should be used instead of chemicals, but I understand that others feel differently. My advice to this person was to bring the remaining live fish back to the LFS (no hospital tank setup) and continue cycling the tank in a fishless manner. They told me that Ammo-Lock does NOTHING to inhibit the cycling process. <Not so... the ammonia present is chemically bound-up, hence the group of nitrifying bacteria populations that "consume" such die off... and must need "re-grow" to convert newly formed/forming ammonia to nitrite, supplying this to other microorganisms that convert this in turn to nitrate... A simplistic model, but if "A" is necessary for "X" to make "B", and "A" is made unavailable then "Y" that relies on "X" dies off along with "X"...> So, my question is -- do Ammonia detoxifiers inhibit the cycling of a tank? <Most, by numbers of products, popularity... actually do forestall the establishment of biological cycling> What EXACTLY is their purpose and should they be used in situations such as these?  <Purpose? Let's see... mainly useful in dire "emergency" situations (too much bio-load being added too quickly, loss of biological filtration integrity in a compromised setting (e.g. treatment, quarantine tanks)... NOT in systems that have yet to fully cycle> I've always been under the impressions that nothing like this should be used while a tank has been cycling (I prefer never to use these things, no matter what the situation, but that's me). Any advice that you could give on this topic would be greatly appreciated! <We are of the same impression, belief set here.> Grateful as always! Deb Colella (A humble aquarist who strives to be as adept at this hobby as you!) <You humble me my friend. Bob Fenner, who apologizes for the delayed response. Have been out of the country> Deborah Colella



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