EcoBio-Stone 5/30/09
Hello Crew, Hope all is going well for all of you.
<It is here, thanks.>
I wanted to ask about a product I ran across on the web called the eco-bio stone. Are you familiar with it at all, and if so do you know if it is worth purchasing or not.
<Well, it is not much, if any, different than other "bacterial boosters" available. My opinion, and experience, tells me skip it. Your system will cycle/cure in time with traditional methods and patience. The latter is the real point, these boosters lead people to believe they can just throw livestock in. It still takes time!>
Thanks,
James
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Cycling with live bacteria– 10/5/08
Good afternoon crew. I am starting another 20 gallon marine tank and have a question about adding live bacteria. I currently have about 10 lbs. of live live rock and 25 lbs. of live sand. My LFS told me to add live bacteria to it and the tank would be ready to start adding in about 3-5 days.
<Hmm... would have said the live bacteria in a bottle are redundant here; if you're using enough live rock and live sand, you already have all the bacteria you need. Do see here...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/liverock1.htm
...and linked articles/FAQs.>
I have the bacteria, but wanted to get your opinion before using it. I don't want to add something to the tank that would throw the nitrogen cycle off balance.
<It won't, if used correctly.>
Also, I have my salinity at 1.018 just to make sure there weren't any parasites on my live rock.
<Ah, well, this wasn't too sensible. Who's idea was this? Since marine invertebrates are rarely as tolerant of salinity chances as bacteria and fish, there's a good chance that reducing the salinity to what is effectively a high-end brackish level (75% normal seawater salinity) will have killed a bunch of stuff, raising the amount of ammonia in the water. So even if the live rock you spent good money on was cured, it now as a very good chance of being "un-cured" (if that's a word!) with dead stuff all over it. While I doubt the bacteria are too fussed, you will need to watch the amount of organic sludge coming off, both in terms of elevated nitrate levels and in how much stuff gets dumped in the skimmer. Do remember parasites mostly hop from fish to fish via a short-lived free living stage in the water; only rarely do parasites survive for long (i.e., more than a day or two) outside a host, so live rock that's been cured for several weeks should be entirely safe in this regard.>
Is this going to make a difference in the cycling.
<Likely not in the stability of the ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen processes, but if there's a bunch of dead stuff on the rocks rotting away, you've pretty much thrown good water quality out the window for the next few weeks. Monitor nitrate, keep up with water changes, ensure the skimmer is working 100%.>
Thank you, Shea
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Cycling with live bacteria (RMF?)– 10/5/08
Thank you for the reply. It was the idea of my LFS to keep the salinity low.
<Hmm...>
Luckily it was at 1.018 for less than 24 hours and is now at 1.022. So hopefully there will be a minimal effect on my live rock.
<Wouldn't bank on it; invertebrates such as echinoderms are likely to be killed even with relatively short term exposure to brackish water.>
I was wondering when it would be safe to add fish.
<That's what your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test kits are for. Use them. If you have zero ammonia and zero nitrite, then the live rock is doing its think successfully and yes, you can add fish, and in fact need to add at least a few small and hardy fish to ensure that there's a supply of ammonia to maintain and develop the biological filtration. Use your nitrate test kit to ensure that there isn't a massive problem with pollution through any potential decay of invertebrates on the rocks.>
It has been cycling for about 48 hours, 24 of which were with bio Spira. I want a blue spot Jawfish as my first fish but I don't want to condemn this expensive beauty to an irresponsible death.
<Quite so.>
My ammonia is 0, my Nitrite is 1.0 and dropping, and my nitrates are in between 0 and 10.
<Don't add any fish yet; nitrite concentration not zero, and therefore deadly to fish. Given that healthy live rock should be consuming both ammonia and nitrite, I'm quite concerned that there is now dangerously high levels of decay on the rocks above and beyond the background level that normally occurs.>
How much longer should I wait before adding the Jawfish?
<Ask your nitrite test kit, not me!>
Thank you all again so much, I really appreciate all the help you give, and so do Many others.
Shea
<Thanks for the kind words. Do please invest in at least one marine book so you have all these facts at your fingertips. Bob Fenner's 'Conscientious Aquarist' is about as good as any on the market, but do also see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/bookswwmsugg.htm
Cheers, Neale.>

Question about nitrites during fishless cycling, BioSpira f'  1/25/08
Hello all,
<Hi Allison, Jeni/Pufferpunk here>
A hopefully quick question for you. I have a new 30 gallon freshwater tank which I set up about 2.5 weeks ago (no fish), when I added about 1.5 ml of some ammonia I bought at the grocery store. It didn't tell me what concentration it was, but I read that "Household ammonia is a dilute mixture of 5 to 10 percent ammonia gas in water." My water indicated about 2.0 ppm ammonia.
<Should raise it to 5ppm.>
It took about a week before my ammonia went down to zero, and since then I've been adding a little bit each day (about .5 ml) and it's always at zero when I test it again the next day (and then add more). I haven't tested my nitrite until tonight and it's reading around 2.0 ppm, though I can't be sure because it's a color test. I would have thought the nitrite would be at zero by now, since it's been a week and a half since the ammonia first went down to zero. Could it be that the ammonia I'm adding daily is killing off the bacteria that does the second part of the cycle (the nitrite-to-nitrate part)?
<No, that bacteria feeds off ammonia.>
I was hoping to be able to get my first two fish (two Cory cats) in a couple days but I want the nitrite to
be at zero, of course. Should I continue adding my .5ml of ammonia each night and wait for the nitrite to get down to zero?
<You need to start out with enough ammonia to test 5pp, ammonia. When you start seeing nitrite, you cut that amount in half, until ammonia & nitrite are 0 & the nitrate spikes. Then do an 80% water change & you're ready to add fish (you can fully stock your tank at this point).>
If you advise to NOT add ammonia, how then can I keep the bacteria multiplying?
<All the bacteria will die without "food'">
I don't know of anywhere to get Bio-Spira locally, otherwise I'd just get that and the fish all at once!
<Unfortunately, I have seen way too many instances of folks counting on Bio-Spira to cycle their tank, only to find out it wasn't kept refrigerated from Marineland, to the supplier, to the wholesaler, to the LFS, to the tank. I have a friend who is a wholesaler. He went to a supplier's warehouse & there were huge skids with cases of Bio-Spira, sitting out in their very warm warehouse. They had been there for quite some time. I was at a LFS one time, where they had some Bio-Spira out on their counter. I insisted it was to be refrigerated & they should read the directions on the back of the package. They read it & put it in the refrigerator for sale. It had been on their counter for months! I am getting a lot of reports of folks depending on their tank being cycled with Bio-Spira & after putting precious, sensitive fish (like puffers) into their supposedly cycled tank, losing these fish to ammonia/nitrite poisoning. I'm sorry I for being so long-winded in your particular email but I wanted people to know about this growing problem with Bio-Spira. If it isn't kept refrigerated the entire time, before getting to your tank, bets are, it's not going to work. One way to prevent this problem is to buy online from a place like Drs Foster & Smith. They guarantee cold delivery. Good luck with your fishless cycle. Here is an excellent article: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/water-filtration/fishless-cycling/ ~PP>
Thanks for the help! I really appreciate it!
Allison

BioSpira.... 6/6/6
Hello there,
<<Hello.>>
I'm setting up a 50 gallon tank and am considering using Bio-Spira to cycle the tank.
<<A good choice.>>
I've heard that directly after the input of Bio-Spira, one could immediately add fish livestock (in my case, I'm looking to add a total of 4 fantails, one at a time, once readings show the ammonia and nitrite levels are 0 per each addition).  Is it a must that you should have fish directly after putting in bio-Spira?
<<Yes, otherwise the bacteria will die with no ammonia to eat.  Alternatively, I suppose one could add ammonia after the introduction of the Bio-Spira.>>
My reasoning is that the nitrifying bacteria would need ammonia to kick start the cycling, but with no fish, the beneficial bacteria would eventually die correct?
<<Yes.>>
Therefore, there will not be any ammonia/nitrite readings with just only bio-Spira correct?
<<I’m not quite sure what you mean.  Bio-Spira does not contain ammonia or nitrites, it contains live bacteria.>>
Ammo-lock shouldn't be used because it would kill off the beneficial bacterial colony correct?
<<It will not kill them outright, but will starve the bacteria, rendering the product useless.>>
What BEST product would you recommend to rid the chloramines and chlorine in the tap water?
<<I use Prime, by Seachem.>>
I have the bio-Spira on order (none of my local fish stores even carry this bad boy, not even the mom and pop shops!  They all only have Hagen’s cycle and I know there is emphasis that it does not work).
<<It does not.>>
I'm guessing the instructions will tell how and where to add it, but I just want to get an idea as to where you would recommend adding it?
<<To your filter media.>>
I've heard some adding it directly to the aquarium water, some to the filter media/bio-wheels?  Any advantages to either?  Recommendation?
<<See above.>>
Water changes during the addition of bio-Spira are okay as long as I do not vacuum the gravel correct?
<<Wait 48 hours before doing water changes.>>
I know these questions seem common-sensical (is that a word? lol) but I would like to get everything right in the first try.
Any help would be great.
John
<<Good luck. Lisa.>>

Marine Cycling Bio-Spira 2/16/07
Dear Crew,
<Hello>
I have searched and have not found these specific answers.  I started my marine tank (hopefully a reef) about 5 weeks ago.  20 gallon, 12  lb. live rock, Penguin 150 bio-wheel and Prizm protein skimmer.  <That skimmer does not have the best reputation, may want to consider replacing it.> With the recommendation of the LFS, I set up the tank, LR, water and filters one day and added Bio-Spira the next day along with 3 clowns, 1 flaming angel and a yellow anemone. <Way too much way too fast, and a bad livestock combination on top of that.> Within two days, the anemone died. <Unfortunately not surprising.>
Pulled it out and everything seemed to be fine.  The LFS told  me everything should be fine with the Bio-Spira and gave me another anemone, this time white. <Not a good sign of health in the anemone.>  This one died within days as well. <Again not surprising.>  Now after weeks of reading your website, I know I have just killed two anemones for all the wrong reasons. <At least you used it as a learning experience.> Not trusting the LFS anymore, I finally got a test kit. <Good>  I did a 25% water change and after that, my readings were ammonia 0 Nitrites 2.0, Nitrates 20 and pH at 8.4.  I have been measuring the nitrite everyday for a week now with the reading at 2.  Yesterday I did the all the testing again, ammonia 0, nitrites 2, Nitrates 150 <Wow, a lot.> and pH 8.4.  Today, the Nitrates have risen  to 5.0 or higher.  The tank went through an algae cycle two weeks ago but that cleared up right away. <Will probably return in a different form at some point.>  The fish all seem healthy, they eat great and swim normally.  <Good>  With the parameters as I describe, should I do water changes, and if so, how much and how often? <Yes and often until the nitrite reading goes to 0, probably 10% every other day.> I know the tank  still needs to cycle but I do not want to lose the fish because I  didn't act quickly enough.  <Will slow down the process but the alternative is losing the fish.>  I would like to eventually add some mushrooms and some "easy" to keep corals.  <Ok, but not with an anemone.>
Another question I have is about micro-bubbles.  I use Prime to  condition the water.  I have read that this may cause the bubbles but it should clear up within a couple of weeks.  <Will effect water's surface tension.>  I have had these  bubbles since day 1 and they have not reduced and they are being produced by the skimmer and the bio-wheel.  I have well water which has been tested for and does not have chlorine or ammonia.  Do I need to use the Prime? <Not really.>
With my skimmer, I can adjust it so I get the correct foam in the  chamber but when I do, the collection cup fills up with water.  I  know that this will happen until the skimmer "breaks in" but in the mean time, do I let it fill up the collection cup with water or do I turn it down so that doesn't happen.  <I would probably turn it down just so I don't accidentally flood the house, but really not a big deal either way.>  Also, if I do let it fill the  collection cup, can I just dump the water back in the tank do I throw it out and add new?  <Pitch it and refill.>
With my well water, I have an in-well aeration system to condition the water.  I believe I have pure water in my house except for the fact that it is hard water.  I do not want to add a RO/DI unit unless I have to.  <I'm a big fan of these and think most all tanks can benefit from, but time will tell if you "really" need one.>  Is it possible to have my house water tested and if so,  what do I test for that I should be concerned about for my aquarium?  <Beyond Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, and phosphate total dissolved solids (TDS) is a general indication of how much "stuff" is in the water.>
Finally, I want to set up a Rubbermaid container to store premixed water.  Do I need a powerhead and an aerator or just one or the other?  <Either or, both are not needed.>
Thanks for all your help and info.
Mike
<A quick comment on your stocking if I may, 3 clowns will run into problems in the future most likely, really should only be kept in pairs in this sized tank.  Also a flame angle needs a much larger tank, likes to have swimming room.  But keep on reading and learning and you will be fine.>
<Chris>

Cycling Refugium With BioSpira (But why?) 3/14/07
Hi All,
<Hi, "D". GrahamT here.>
I have set up a 6 gallon Eclipse tank as a refugium for my 10 gallon nano reef.  
<I love refugiums... and adding volume for that matter.>
I started the cycling about 2 weeks ago using a piece of frozen shrimp to get the ammonia in there (Left it in for 1 week then removed).  
<Wait. You are cycling a refugium? This doesn't compute. If you are adding more volume in the form of a refugium to one system, and it is destined to contain exactly the same water as the main system, then why would we cycle it separately??? (Or at all)>
My LFS usually carries BioSpira but they were out and said it was on order.  This past weekend I went back only to find they just placed the order and it would be another 2 weeks... so I ordered BioSpira from Drs. Foster and Smith online Saturday P.M.  Product shipped Monday, received the package overnight A.M.; products still cold, well packaged great service by the way). I took a reading on the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates and of course they all top the charts.  
<Well, of course...>
I added some of the BioSpira (the 1 oz is for 30 gallons and this is only 6) with plans to add some more later. (Package clipped tightly closed and replaced in fridge.)  Then later add some Right Now! by HDLtd which I have found really helps in knocking down the nitrates.  
<Not sure how that could be. Isn't "Right Now!" a live bacteria (like Bio-Spira)? It doesn't claim to contain any anoxic or anaerobic  bacteria capable of reducing Nitrates.>
But while doing a search on the WWM site for BioSpira I ran across the sentence...""They, and the microbes in the BioSpira were poisoned, hemolyzed in the fishes' case, by the ammonia...""  So I became confused as to the use of BioSpira and I'm quite possibly misunderstanding the statement.  
<Nah, that's just Bob trying to scare you into cycling a tank properly. ;)> <<You are perceptive. RMF>>
But it has me thinking that by adding BioSpira to a tank high in ammonia I'm killing the beneficial microbes and in fact wasting my time adding the product.  Please clarify this for me.  If I need to do a water change to dilute the high readings somewhat before adding more BioSpira, please let me know.  
<This is news to me. Bob has just earned a forward from me. My research on hemolization tells me it can apply to this situation, but is rather vague specifically with the microbial "form". Hemolyzed red blood cells are ruptured, not sure how ammonia does this, but I am not a bio-chemist. This one is for Bob.><<Way too much ammonia/ammonium presence will kill beneficial microbes... cause hemolysis (in animals with RBC's natch). RMF>>
I was running a carbon filter.  I removed the carbon bag before adding the BioSpira.
<Not necessary, will not filter out anything that Bio-Spira metabolizes, and can actually provide a ton of surface area for the bacteria to live on.>
(Whisper inside filter because of the low water level... below bulkhead and left the bio-filter in place)  The refugium has a 4-1/2" sand bed and that is all that's in the refugium at this time.  I know I need to have all parameters in this tank identical to my main tank before even considering tying them together.  
<The simplest way to achieve this would be to fill it with water from the display and some substrate, immediately tying them together.>
I have some extra live rock from rearranging my main tank which I plan to add after the ammonia, nitrite & nitrate levels are to 0.  Then I'll add Chaeto.  Should I put a cleanup crew in my refugium?  
Move a couple snails and/or a hermit crab; was thinking to order some brittle stars to put in there.  
<Not necessary, doesn't hurt unless you worry about competition from the hermits for pods.>
The live rock has bristle worms and Gammarus shrimp already.  Love the Gammarus shrimp... highly entertaining and excellent scavengers.  Afterwards, my thoughts are during my main tank water changes to remove equal water from refugium and replace it with the removed water from the main tank.  Should I do this for a week or two before tying them together?   
<Would do it once and have done with it altogether. I think it's good that you worry about the condition of the 'fuge, but I think this could be going faster and smoother if you just tie-in to the main display and let everything equalize. The system wouldn't spike if you had started this way, but now you don't want to introduce the elevated levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate into your main system. Live and learn. I would be more concerned doing it this way that your 'fuge is chemically different in many ways from the display, and when you finally do "join" them, there will be a period of accelerated acclimation. That said, I think you'll still be fine, because you have a plan and you know what to look for. Good luck!
-GrahamT>
Thanks again.
Regards,
Debbie P.