Generator/Battery Backup System 5/10/08
Hello Everyone,
<Hello Shannon.>
I'm hoping all you fine folks can give me some advice on a generator/battery backup idea that I have.
<Surely can.>
I'm getting all my equipment together for my future 150 gallon tank, which will be a future LPS and fish tank. I've been researching my options for power outage
protection, as I definitely don't want to lose any lives in my tank.
<This is a very overlooked, very valid concern.>
Fortunately where I live the power has never gone out for more than three hours, but I'd still want peace of mind.
<You would hate to lose your livestock due to the once every 50 years storm that may take days to restore power.>
When the electrician came to install a GFI outlet for my tank I asked him about a portable generator, and since I live in a townhouse and noise is an issue, he recommended a small Honda portable generator, so I'm able to run my system pump and Tunze pumps for circulation.
<The Honda is hands down the one to use when noise is a concern. These units are very common here in California where noise laws abound everywhere you turn.>
I'm planning on buying one of these, but then I'd have to plug everything in, run outside and turn on the generator. That's fine if I'm home, but I'm concerned about the power going out in the middle of the night while I'm asleep or away at work.
<This is the problem, a generator is good for longer term outages, but you do have to be there unless you are in a situation to have it wired into your circuitry and have it automatically switch over. In a townhouse you likely do not fall into this category.>
Then while browsing the internet I came across this:
http://www.jehmco.com/html/battery_backup_system.html
This got me interested. I was thinking of getting one of these to use for those situations mentioned above, so it will turn on automatically, while keeping the portable generator for when I'm home and if the power goes out for an extended length of time.
<Sounds like a good plan.>
What do you guys think of this? Is it a good idea? Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
<I have built a few systems that work exactly as this one does through the years. I have even considered marketing the unit, it is nice to see someone else has fulfilled this need. It indeed is the answer to your problem.>
Sincerely,
Shannon O'Rourke
<Have fun with the new setup, Scott V.>

Prolonged power outage and low water temp 03/11/2008
Dear Crew,
<<G'Morning, Andrew today>>
I have experienced a power outage that lasted almost 20 hours. During the outage the water temperature dropped to 61 degrees. The tank is a 70 gallon and has a 20 gallon sump. I have about 90# of rock and a 6"deep sand bed a few corals and 5 fish. During the outage I twice changed out 5 gallons of water. The power has finally come back on. 
Aside for removing any dead creatures I am not sure what my next move should be.
<<Checking water parameters, water change as per the outcome of the parameter checks>>
What affect does the loss of circulation and temperature have on the bacteria in a tank?? Is this tank going to cycle again? What affect does
the above have on the deep sand bed?
<<Has anything died? Depending on the hardiness of the stock in the tank, you could get away with hopefully no disastrous effects>>
Any insights and advice would surely be appreciated. Thank you. Josh
<<Thanks, hope this helps. A Nixon>>

Recovering from catastrophic power loss-12/22/2007
Hello,
<Deb>
Up until a few days ago, I had a 9 year old 55 gallon indo-pacific soft coral reef tank with a coral beauty, a yellow-tailed blue damsel, and many small hermit crabs and various snails as a cleanup crew. My softies consisted of yellow polyps, green star polyps, orange Ricordea, orange zoanthids, clove polyps, a mushroom leather and various other little critters that popped up out of my live rock.
On Sunday morning, we lost power and didn't get it restored until Thursday. Disaster should've been averted, as I have a 20,000 Watt generator at my house, but it was never installed correctly and never came on. The house got down to 40 degrees for about 4 days, with nothing in the tank running. So, long story short, I came back to a dead tank.
I started breaking it down yesterday and found that, in fact, some of the hermit crabs were actually alive! In addition, my yellow polyps are not extended, but aren't melting down either. They're staying "upright" as it were, so I think that they may be alive as well. So -- I disconnected my canister filter, completely cleaned it out, packed it with new media, including activated carbon, and hooked it back up.
<Good>
I have a SCWD system running in there for water movement, and I'm skimming the HECK out of it with a CPR BakPak. I've found and removed the only two fish in the tank, as well as all of the dead snails/crabs that I've found. I also did a 60% water change. My question to you is -- now what???
<Time going by>
Is it even reasonable to think that I can rescue this tank?
<Some of it, yes>
If so, what steps do you recommend?
<Observation, testing... possible water change-outs...>
I'm making more RO/DI water as we speak and intend on doing a series of 50% water changes until it DOESN'T smell like the bay at low tide. I'm also going to continue removing any dead occupants as I find them and skimming the heck out if this tank.
<Sounds good>
Should I just return what's alive to a fish store and give up on this, or is there hope?
<There is always... or should I state, there could always be hope>
Should I try to remove any dead corals or let them disintegrate into the system. Will the cycling that's bound to take place destroy the other corals?
<Mmm... I would hold out hope that some/all of the "corals" might have some living tissue that might rally...>
Thanks for any advice you can give.
Deb
<Hang in there. Bob Fenner>

A HUGE thank you! (power outages)   12/11/07
Here in Oklahoma this weekend we're officially going through "the biggest power outage in Oklahoma history" according to the power company's special announcements on the news. Tens of thousands of homes are without power due to a major ice storm that is still hitting us pretty hard. I'm in a rural area & it's worse out here.
Over the past 6 months I've read WWM 'cover to cover' in setting up my new bigger tanks. But now I've got three 6 ft tanks with several 4 ft tanks with quite a few carefully selected, loved & diligently quarantined fish, these fish have become a real part of the family. I read the 'power outage' section of WWM many times and my heart went out to all the people who'd lost entire long time tanks full of beloved fish due to power outages. BECAUSE of that we purchased a 7000kw Guardian generator with an automatic transfer switch. The thought of losing all my fish I love so much had me scared to the point of panic.
It took my husband 4 or 5 hours the other night to hook up this big 4' X 3' propane powered generator and wire it into our main breaker. When our power goes out the generator kicks on automatically in 13 seconds.
The generator was $2000.00 (for those interested) but I'm quite certain it would take well over that much money in therapy alone to get over losing all my much-loved fish :-)
So while the majority of the Oklahoma City area and a large part of the entire state is sitting without lights, water or heat, my fish are heated, filtered, warm and safe.
I'm thanking God and WWM right now. Neale has been blessedly patient with my questions and because of the information on your website I won't lose a single fish due to this horrible ice storm, nor any future power outages. It makes me sick to my stomach to think "what if" I hadn't read your information and gotten the generator.
So THANK YOU!! And a giant cyber-hug from my Oscar, Royal Plec, Clown Loaches, Severum, Cory Cats, Eartheater & Goldfish to Neale Monks
(different tanks of course-ha!). They're all raising their fins in salute to this wonderful website that has undoubtedly saved their lives.
Indebted beyond belief & on my way to make a donation immediately!
Mitzi
<Hi Mitzi. I'm glad the generator did its job and all your fishy friends are safe and sound. It's not often we here the success stories, usually just the problems. It's like watching the evening news where all you hear is death and destruction! But obviously fishkeeping is fun, which is why people do it, and when people make sensible choices up front, as you've done here, then they find the hobby easier and more rewarding. So anyway, enjoy the holiday season, and thanks so much for writing. Cheers, Neale. Oh, and you have some great fish there... I think you'll need to start charging admission for when people come over and visit your State Aquarium!>

Re: A HUGE thank you! (power outages)   12/11/07
There's an idea....I could charge 1 cube of bloodworms and my Oscar would perform for them all day! Thank YOU, Neale, especially. I love the theme of this entire website but it's been you who's made a lifetime impression on me with your upfront honesty (harsh when they need it) and endless patience. You've forgotten more than most of us will ever know about aquatics. No need to take time to answer this one. I just want to say thank you for being so generous with your time.
Mitzi
<Hello Mitzi. I'm glad the WWM web site has entertained and informed you. It's actually pretty good fun writing these e-mails and helping out, and most of us here definitely "feel good" knowing we've done something to help a few people keep their fish a little bit better. It's a great hobby, and one I'm proud to be a part of. Enjoy your fish, and let us know how things go! Cheers, Neale.>

New 300-Gallon FOWLR System...What Size Generator For Power Backup? – 08/17/07
Hi, Crew.
<<Howdy!>>
I am an aquarium newbie and have been trying to quickly learn everything I can and your website has been invaluable.
<<Ah, good!>>
Me and my little fishy friends thank you.
<<Most welcome>>
I hoping you can help me with this problem.
<<I shall try>>
Aquarium Design Group in Houston designed our system. I have been asking them for the past 6 months to give me a list of all of the equipment they installed. I have only gotten promises and excuses, but still no information (so don't use them).
<<Mmm, poor customer service indeed...but let me impress upon you that “you” should to learn to identify/learn about the operation/function of this equipment. Let me direct you here for a start (http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm )...do have a read through the two “set-up” trays>>
I have a 300 gallon FOWLR (http://www.caller2.com/realestate/gabriels/s_homes/2007/0218/showcase.cfm -- look in the photo gallery)
<<Impressive...though I can’t really tell much about the aquarium from the photo other than it looks like a beautiful installation/display>>
with a bio-ball filter, charcoal <<carbon>> filter, and protein skimmer. The tank is plumbed directly to a sewer line and the mixing tank, R/O and chiller outside. (A 60 gallon water change takes only 5 minutes and all you have to do is turn 3 valves.)
<<A very nice feature. I have a very similar setup/can perform this same function with my 375g reef display>>
I need to get a generator installed for electric outages,
<<Ah yes, and I have one of these as well...provides much “peace of mind”>>
but I don't know what to tell the electrician regarding power needs.
<<Hmm... I have a 5.5-Kilowatt unit that provides enough power for my large reef system. Considering nearly half the energy consumption on my system is the high intensity metal halide lighting...and considering the fact your display is a FOWLR system that typically would utilize a fraction of the same...I think it very likely you could get by with a 3.5-Kilowatt unit for your tank>>
Is there some way I can find out the manufacturers and model numbers?
<<Unless these were “stripped” by the installers, the pumps/motors/ballasts/et al powering your equipment/system should have labels on them indicating their power requirements/consumption>>
Please help, it's hurricane season and I've grown attached to me new little buddies.
<<If you want to be more precise you could ask your electrician about using a “clamp-meter” to measure the power/amperage drawn through the electrical lines supplying the display (with “everything” on/running)...add 15% to this figure and you have the value you need. Or, as I stated previously...a 3.5-Kilowatt generator should provide ample power for your current system (based on the info you have provided me)...but if you want to plan for some growth or think you might one day want to have a reef system, then go with a 5-Kilowatt or larger unit. Regards, Eric Russell>>

Hurricanes! Power outages   7/28/07
OK, last question for awhile, I guess I'm trying to get them all outta the way. This one has been revolving around in my mind for months. I live south of Houston, and we always have the possibility of a major storm hitting this season. When Rita came through, we were much luckier than those just east of us, and never lost power. Those east of us lost it from anywhere from a couple of hours to 3 weeks. We are far enough inland to where home damage probably won't be a major issue, but if we take a big hit, power loss is a definite possibility. With the money invested in my fish, not to mention that they are living creatures, I want to have some type of plan that will allow me to at least make the best effort I can to protect them in case of, say, a three day power outage. There's not going to be allot
<Wrong words>
I can do about temperature. The tank is 200 gallons with about 100lbs of live rock. Removing the glass lid is obviously one step. The biomedia in the FX5 and other canister, is that worth trying to salvage? I am thinking about purchasing a small generator, say 5000 watts. This has a run time of 10 hrs on a tank of fuel, and of course I'd have as much gas stored as possible, along with the typical bathtubs of water, etc. How often and long do you think hooking up, say the FX5, for circulation on the tank, would be minimum for supporting the fish?
<Days...>
I would have to use it on the refridgerator and freezer to maintain temperature for our food for some periods, and I would like to minimize the use of the generator to conserve gas. I've even thought of creating turbulence on the tank surface by hand for periods of time but I imagine that would be traumatic for the fish, something they wouldn't need at this time, for sure. I have also thought of freezing Ziploc bags full of water to float in the tank for temperature control.
<Good idea>
Anyway, I'm sure a lot of these thoughts are running together, but it might be a worthwhile subject. I'm sure there are many of us on the gulf coast that keep fish. Maybe it can help us prepare for the worst.
As always, thank you very much.
Thomas Roach
<There are some FAQs files re this topic/subject on WWM. RMF>

Plenum or DSB/Backup Power – 06/30/07
Hello crew.
<<Howdy Eric…EricR here>>
I'm in the midst of planning a 125g mixed reef setup and have a question about whether or not to employ a plenum layer.
<<Okay>>
If I were to have an Aragonite sand bed of <1", would I be good (in terms of keeping nitrates to a minimum) with not using the plenum?
<<Hmm, have you read any of Bob Goeman’s writings on plenum methodology (here’s a place to start: http://www.saltcorner.com/sections/guest/goemansandgamble/sandbedspart1.htm)? Whether going with a DSB or a plenum system, a sub-1” sand bed is going to do little for “direct” Nitrate reduction>>
I am planning to use a 30g sump, and if I were to go the DSB route there, would I use a plenum layer??
<<Is up to you…I prefer simply to go the DSB route>>
Oh, and I have one more question regarding backup power--aside from something like a generator or a Yugo battery, are there other more convenient options for a tank of this size that you'd recommend?
<<There “are” battery-backup systems available…most designed as backup computer power. I find these expensive and of limited utility re hobby use…though admittedly I have not done any extensive research on what is available. For a system your size, a small gas-powered generator to run the “essentials” would likely cost about as much (or less?) than some of the proprietary battery-backup systems and will provide much more useable and sustained power…in my humble opinion, of course>>
Thanks for the education and terrific website! Eric
<<We’re pleased you find it of use. Eric Russell>>

On QTs and power outages   3/1/07
<Greeting, Mich here.>
You encourage all aquarists to establish quarantine tanks right from the get go as part of a responsible set up.  WE did that......and felt rather smug about it.  
<Hee!>
However, I looked the other way when reading about the need to think through emergency back-up systems thinking batteries and generators, etc, were complicated, too expensive. And frankly, who even wants to think about such a problem?!?   
<That smugness coming back to bite ya! Eh?>
After just completing 42.5 hours without power I have reconsidered that thinking.  
<Ahh, yes, experience is such an excellent teacher.>
How foolish we were to invest all the time and money in a 75 gallon reef set up and not plan for emergencies---not to mention the beautiful and precious creatures depending on us to sustain them. So, my point is simply to encourage anyone setting up a tank to consider back up power sources in the event of power outages.
<Thank you for sharing this.  Others will learn from your misfortune.>
The good news:  so far no deaths.  
<Excellent.  Very good news indeed!>
I immediately wrapped the tank in Styrofoam and, when it was apparent the power wasn't coming back anytime soon, began heating water on our camping stove in the garage (brrrr), putting it in leak proof containers and adding it to the tank every three to four hours.  This slowed the heat loss.  
<Clever thinking!>
I stirred the water a bit.  When travel was possible, some 24 hours into it, our LFS gave me two little battery-powered air pumps AND we were loaned a 5500-watt generator!  
<Wow!  Generous folks!>
We hooked things up and then I was brave enough to check the tank temp--66 degrees.  
<Yes... that... do I really want to know this... feeling in the pit of your stomach.>
I've been reading the posts about power failures and I'm watching for crypt, pH shock and hoping for the best.  I can't quite believe the whole thing isn't dead----me thinks some sort of miracle has occurred.   
<Many reef creatures are quite hardy.>
But, dear readers, do develop a plan for such instances NOW.
<Wise words here!>
Unlike most cases, computer research isn't possible at the time of crisis when the crisis is a power failure.
<Sometimes it's the obvious that isn't so obvious.>
Have a great day!
<And the same to you!  Thank you for sharing your story.  I'm certain others will benefit from reading it.  -Mich>

Re: On QTs and power outages  - 03/02/07
Okay, I just couldn't resist telling you that since I'm a bit math challenged--or sleep deprived from Emergency Tank Management mode
<Hee! The department of ETM!>
I miscalculated the hours we were without power:   It was 50, count 'em 50, hours until we had the generator and 78.5 until our power was fully restored.   
<Dang!>
I'm even more amazed nothing has died........yet.......and keep hoping recovery continues to go as well.!!!
<Hoping for the best for you!  -Mich>  

Power outage  - 1/18/07
Hello, I've been without power for five days and my reef is gone. I have about 150 lbs of live rock and 100 lbs of oolitic sand in a 180 gallon tank. My sump is a 75 gallon tank where skimmers are and return pump. The tank is filtering and the lights are on until I get some advice. My concerned here is the live rock and the sand. Thanks
<Hey Debby, I'm very sorry for your tragedy in lieu of this winter blast America is currently experiencing, however, you don't give us much to go on here. I'm not certain exactly what question it is that you're asking... If you're asking if the live rock and sand will be ok, then in my personal opinion, yes they will be fine. If I've misunderstood here, feel free to shoot me back and I'll answer your real question! Hope this helps! -JustinN>

Re: power outage  - 1/18/07
Hello, do I have to do a 100% water change ?
<Absolutely not, Debby! Execute a water change in the range of 10-25%, and then shortly after completing the water change, do water quality tests. The tests will indicate any remaining levels of nitrogenous wastes, and will give you a further direction of action. -JustinN>

Back-up electrical generator question    1/14/07
Hello Bob,
I was going to pose this question to the crew, but thought I should cut right to the source (hope that's okay).
<Certainly>
I have been thinking for a long time about a small home generator system.  I am not crazy about the gasoline run equipment.
<Mmm>
I am a (not to strong) woman living alone and those things can be quite heavy.  Also the idea of keeping a gas can does not appeal to me since I have no garage.  
<Not all that heavy nowadays... and the fuel can be stored elsewhere... which I advise if there are ignition or flame attendant devices in your garage>
Now that I have a Koi pond (and they are getting big) and have invested quite a bit of money in my reef tank I get (and stay) nervous all during hurricane season.  That being said, can you recommend a company that might install a small home generator system that won't cost an arm and a leg?  May be a ridiculous question, but thought if anybody would know, you would.
Thanks for any help you may be able to offer.
Best Regards,
Lisa Crugnola
<The best route here is to investigate through your local utility... Contact them re your concerns and ask in turn who they suggest to advise you... Not necessarily very expensive or difficult to have your own back-up system. Bob Fenner>

Earthquake response - 10/17/06
Aloha from Oahu,
<Hi from Kentucky! MacL here. I'm glad to hear there were no deaths.>
All's well after the earthquake yesterday, USGS upped it to a 6.7 now with a 6.0 aftershock.  Hope Bob is ok if he's on the Big Island. This was a wakeup call for everyone, especially us aquarium hobbyists.
When the quake happened, I hopped out of bed, leaned on the front of  my 55 gallon tank just in case mother nature decided to get even more crazy.  No need, a bit of water did splash out, but I had built the  stand to stay put, angle braces at every joint. The models I saw in  the stores were way too flimsy looking.
From 7:00am Sunday until 1:00am Monday I was churning the water in  my tanks every 15 minutes.  PH dropped to 7.8, I added 3/4 teaspoon  buffer to bring it up.  Around 9pm my bicolor Anthias couldn't take anymore and expired.  Today I bought 4 battery operated air pumps and  D size batteries that are within reach of my aquariums. I'm hoping  they really do work, but am thinking about buying a small generator.
Tested PH tonight and it was up to 8.8, so I added 2ml Fritz ph lower (phosphoric acid).  PH is now at 8.4 at the start of the night cycle.
I hope I did everything right and that things are back on track, and  if need be, the air pumps will suffice to prevent another loss.   Please add any suggestions so I can know what to do in a lengthy  power outage in the future.  
<I think you are doing a wonderful job. The oxygen level is very important and the power heads will take care of that. If you have water that you can use to make a water change you might consider doing that in a day or so as well if the power doesn't resume in a couple of days.  Unfortunately the changes might bring some stress related diseases on like ich etc when its back on so be aware and be watching. Good luck and if you start to have problems let us know, MacL>

Power Outage Leads To Dead Aquarium
We have a 3m x 0.6m x 0.78m aquarium tank on our farm in the Northern Cape. This past weekend we lost our entire aquarium due to a power failure. Unfortunately we were not at home to try & fix this. Thus my question is are there any UPS systems available which can be installed or is there any other solution for solving our problem?
Where could I find more information regarding this if possible? Thanks
Rian & Nina
<Computer stores have electronic backups for when power goes out. They act as little batteries. They may provide power for a few hours but I am not sure how long they will last. Will probably depend on your power consumption.-Chuck>

Power Outages...How Long Will My Tank Last? - 09/28/06
Mr. Fenner / Eric R,
<<EricR here...>>
Thanks for all your advices & hope everything is fine there!
<<So far so good today, thanks>>
Time to time there are power cuts around the area I live.
<<Mmm, my area too...overhead power lines and lots of big trees...>>
My tank has 1 little Red Knobbed Starfish, 2 Dancing shrimps and lots of live rock for now but I am also going to introduce maybe 4-5 fish (small & medium sized) to my 80G tank and not more.
<<Ok>>
So how long do you think my tank can survive without electricity (I mean what’s the maximum time the tank can survive without major water changes as a result of electricity failure)?
<<Can vary...affected by water temperature, room temperature, bio-load, etc...but I generally don’t start to worry till the power has been off more than an hour or so (then it’s time to fire up the generator!).  It’s also a good idea to monitor for signs of undue stress/abnormal behavior and take action earlier if necessary>>
And also after the maximum time (if there is any) how much water should be replaced?
<<I wouldn’t “replace” necessarily as this too can add stress.  Simply dipping out/pouring back in to circulate/promote gas exchange is fine.  Doing this a couple times every half-hour can keep a tank going for quite a while.  I have used this method in the many times over the years.  If your system has a sump, be sure to dip from the sump and pour in to the tank until water fills/flows down the overflow...this will keep your sump happy too>>
Do you think the use of a UPS is a good idea just in case to survive in these types of situations?
<<Can be of great utility to run a small air pump/airstone...this simple step can keep a tank “alive” for many hours>>
Thanks again in advance for any advice, best regards, Rachel
<<A pleasure to share.  Eric Russell>>

Electrical generator figuring   9/26/06
Hi Crew. Due to all of your help and fine articles, all of my 4 FW aquariums are now under control and nitrates are at 10 or less for 3 mos. now! Wow! I thank you for your help. Now to a strange question that one of you might be able to answer?
Our rural electricity goes out from time to time during bad storms and am about to buy a gasoline generator for the winter months. I have no idea how many watts I need for the following and hope you can give me some idea?
<Mmm, can "add up" the watts/wattage (volts, likely 120 maximum times rated amps/amperage equals watts...) for each item as if all might be "on" at a time... and get something with a capacity higher than this...>
A 29 gal. bow with emperor 280 and heater...A 75 gal. with two emperor 400's with 2 -100 watt heaters...A 100 gal. with two emperor 400's with two 170 watt heaters....All tanks kept at 78-80 deg. The 4th is a QT tank of 10gal. The lighting is...29 gal. 20 watt fluorescent...75 gal. has two 40 watt fluorescents and the 100 gal. has two 24in. 20 watt fluorescents. Do any of you have an opinion on this? Thanks again...DR
<Likely the smallest of consumer units... something about 3,800 watts, will do for you for your tanks here... You'll need more should you want to run large electrical appliances (washer, stove)... Bob Fenner>

UPS and GFCI?  - 09/14/06
Hi folks-
<Jake>
My fishy endeavours have led me to the realization during the hurricane season here in the Carolina's I'd greatly prefer not to have a wipeout of my 29G due to an electrical power loss. We generally have a very stable power grid here except during the season and the week or two of ice storms.
Last weekend I dug out my old APC Back-UPS 300 and purchased a new battery for it. I promptly discovered while attaching the electrical lifeblood of my tank that one of my magnetic drive Hagen powerheads chattered something fierce while running on battery.
<Can>
I have two questions:
1) Do you think it would be OK to put my GFCI between the UPS and the power strip feeding the tank?
<Mmm, I do think this will be okay>
I know it will have zero efficacy before the UPS, but am now concerned about harmonics and the 'squarish' wave output affecting it's efficacy.
<Should not be a factor... am given to understand that the basic principle of these devices is electron "counting", not a measure of wave differential>
2) My plan is to run only the Emperor 280 and one Hagen 30 175 GPH powerhead on the UPS and split everything else off to a separate strip.
<Good idea...>
I figure there is no need to run lighting, skimmer, etc. in emergency situations.
<Mmm, not as much... but may need to add insulation, some source of heat/ing>
I may run the skimmer for short periods for increased aeration only. Does this make sense or should I simply run the filter?
<I'd measure the total amp-life capacity here and run as much as you can for the supposed duration it may have to>
Another concern is during the winter months the heater will need to run more often than usual as the tank is in my lab/home office which normally is 27C due to all the computing equipment with the tank holding steady at 78F. Ultimately power will be less of an issue when I get out of this apartment and back into a house with a planned 5KVA UPS for the room and a whole house generator.
<Wow!>
Time permitting, my plans are to dry-run the UPS tomorrow to check the runtime under load. Charts be damned,
<Our sentiments agree here>
the only way to really know is to run under load. Somehow this all smells of an upgrade to the UPS....
<Why oh why didn't I invest in the stocks of these companies when I knew of their impending utility, likely sales volume? Booo hooooo!>
Thanks very much for the investment of your personal time, and the invaluable information which the site provides us all.
Regards-
Jake
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

- Overflow Box and Power Failure 6/27/06 -
Hi Bob/ staff,
<Hi.>
I have joined a forum so I have been bothering you guys less lately, but even the members of the reef tank. com can't answer this one. Here goes.
Ok, I have a hang on overflow on the 29. The overflow is by ProClear and has the overflow box with slits and a u tube that carries that water to the pre filter on the back. <Very common design.>
suppose this happens. The power fails for an extended period while am away. So the overflow will keep draining water into the sump until the water level drops below the slots, no biggie. But then the power comes back on and the return pump is working again. So all that water gets pumped back and it fills the overflow box slits. Will there still be a siphon or will the tank flood until the sump empties and the return pump blows out? <There should be if both ends of the U-Tube are submerged. This is something you can and should test by simply unplugging the return pump.>
the second box that hangs on the outside of the tank is designed to retain water if no new water is coming in because the standpipes comes up a few inches and the u tube gets submerged in their. But I don't know because if water doesn't come into those slots in the internal box, and all the remaining water gets sucked up by the u tube, wont it suck air and have no siphon? <It doesn't start moving until water flowing into the slotted (tank-side) box.> I'm really worried so if it will loose siphon, what can I do to prepare or prevent the possible flooded floor, blown out return pump, and likely fire? <Well for starters, everything electrical in and around your tank should be plugged into a GFCI outlet. That will remediate any possible fire dangers. Otherwise, I think you should unplug your main pump and see what happens. I think you will be surprised. Over the long haul, just keep the U-Tube clean as this is the weak link in the chain.> Remember to look closely at the picture provided in the link. <Am very familiar with this design; have sold more than I care to count.> Thanks
John
<Cheers, J -- >

Choosing A Back Up Power Source - 01/27/2006
Hi crew can someone direct me on what to purchase for back up power during a power outage?
<Start by figuring the total watts you'll need for the desired equipment. Use that to determine the size generator. Check with hardware or computer stores for options on back up power.>
I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
<Sure. - Josh>

UPS Backup Power   1/26/06
I purchased a 525 watt UPS for backup power in the event of short term unattended power loss.
I have the following electrical equipment:
1 - Seio high volume powerhead 620 gph - 10 watts
2 - MaxiJet 1200 powerhead 295 gph - 20 watts
3 - 35 watt pump for protein skimmer
4 - Quiet One 4000 50 watt in-sump return pump
5 - 200 watt heater
6 - Approx 450 watts of lighting
Would you power just the powerheads which total 30 watts and get maximum
duration out of the battery or would you add the sump pump too? <I'm thinking with your lighting you have corals/live rock.  I would want a good flow in the tank in this regard. I  would leave the sump pump off.> What about
protein skimmer? <I'd leave off.> Keep in mind that this is for unattended power failure. We have a generator that we can use for long term/attended failures in which
case we could run the whole she-bang. I was thinking that using the powerheads only would provide nearly a full
day of power from the battery, what do you think? <Yes> I guess the real question
is, would the two powerheads provide enough gas exchange? <As long as your tank isn't overcrowded you should be fine with the powerheads.>
We live in Houston so I am not too concerned about a free fall in temp as most power losses occur in summer with severe wx. If anything temp will rise
not fall so I have concluded that I would not need to put the heater on the back-up system.
It is a 90 gallon Oceanic, rectangular aquarium.
Your thoughts please...<As above.  James (Salty Dog)>

Crucial Components In Power Outage - 01/20/2006
Dear WWM friends,
<Hello Inna.>
I have a newly set up 125 gal ( with you great help!) saltwater which is slowly becoming a reef. Everything is going very smoothly, I started stocking it up. I'm planning to have soft corals in it plus some fish plus some cleaning inverts.
<Sounds good.>
Now I have troubles sleeping (he-he-he) of fear of power outage and
decided to invest in an emergency power supply unit. Probably I will not be able to get a unit which can support everything - heater, lights, skimmer, powerheads, return pump. So I have to come out with a list of absolute necessities. I assume heater will be one of those.
<Yep.>
As for circulation - I'm not sure if I have to have on emergency circuit a main pump or a powerhead will be enough.
<Enough for a power head should be fine.>
Another aspect - lights. Would it be OK for softies if they do not have lights for a day or they would get damaged?
<Hmm...Would be fine.>
Ones again, thanks for all your help!
Inna
<Gladly. You may wish to add a small air pump to this plan as well, and I'd keep the skimmer running. - Josh>

Powerless - 18/01/06
Crew
My reef tank was without power for about six hours.  The temperature went from 77.5 to 74.5, pH at 8.3, and ammonia just under .25ppm.  Do I need to worry?
<It's difficult to give clarity without knowing more about livestock and your method of filtration... but any ammonia is not good. I would monitor ammonia and nitrites and do sufficient, carefully conducted (!. No sense stressing the inhabitants further) water changes to keep them as low as possible. The temperature drop wasn't too severe, so I'd be fairly bullish provided you can keep parameters in check.>
thanks
<Welcome! Best regards, John.>

Back-up Power Needs Means Generator, UPS, or the Like  11/9/05
Hello,
<Hi there.>
I have a 155 gallon aquarium with saltwater fish in it. I am moving into an area were they have occasional power outages. 
<That's no fun.> 
I currently have one of the filters that setup in the bottom of the tank.
<In the tank, or under the tank?> 
I believe it is called an overflow system. Anyway I was wondering if you might know of a backup system I could use incase the power goes out to catch the water that back flows into the filter or is there a pan I could put under the filter to catch the access water.
<A backup generator will be your best friend for this. Extended loss of power can have more of an impact than just overflowing. Are you using a wet/dry or sump type filter? How is your water returned to the tank? If you're using a sump and your returns are not in danger of siphoning out your tank, then this is a little easier to avoid. 
When you fill your tank (before any pumps are running) simply let your tank fill the sump, stopping about three inches or so from the top. When you turn on your pump, the water level will drop. When it stops dropping mark that level with a marker. This is your max. fill line when doing top-offs, never add more than this. Test it by turning your pump off. It should only be able to fill back to that original full height, before you started your pump. If it overflows (turn the pump on before it actually does) then there's a siphon. This is assuming your sump is of adequate size of course. I'd still rather get the generator though. - Josh>

Picking A Battery Backup Device - 10/25/05
Hi Crew,
<<Howdy>>
I have a 55-gallon saltwater tank with a Mag 5 powering the skimmer, another Mag 5 powering the water return back from the sump and an Iwaki powering the water through the system on the other side of the sump.
I have 2 VHO fluorescents for lights with a ballast. I want to look into purchasing some kind of battery back up power supply that would automatically go on in the event of a power failure. I live alone and work all day and I need to protect my fish if the power goes out.
<<A good idea, yes.>>
I know Staples sells battery power supply backups for PC's and I've also seen a product from Azoo (sp?) as well in a fish supply catalogue. How do I know how much wattage system I need to power my system sufficiently in the event of a power failure.
<<Check the labels on the pumps for "amps" or "amperage" and multiply this times the voltage to get the "watts" for each pump. This will give you a baseline to size the battery backup device. Multiply the total wattage of all the pumps by the number of hours you want to provide backup power, add another 20%, and this is the size backup device you will want to purchase. I wouldn't plug-in/run the lights from the backup power supply...not necessary.>>
The ones at Staples are quite large in size and have different wattage levels. I'm unsure as to what would be best for my system. Can you help?
<<Size the device as outlined and get one that will provide power until you can get home to take other measures. EricR>>
<<We also use these UPSs for surge control with particularly delicate electronics.  MH>>

Re: Picking A Battery Backup Device - 10/27/05
Thank you Eric, this is helpful and I will put your formula to good use to protect my investment and finned buddies!
<<Excellent my friend, and most welcome. Be chatting, EricR>>

Keep tanks running with no electricity  9/5/05
(Editor - I have read your website and gained loads of valuable information.
I would like to share the article I wrote below with the visitors to your
website. All I ask is that you reprint it in its entirety. Thank You)
<Thank you much for this posting. Will share. Bob Fenner>
Hello,
I would like to start out by saying my heart goes out to the gulf coast
victims of Katrina. We were hit by her directly when she was only a category 1.
The plan of attack provided below is the same one I used to keep 3 fish
tanks powered (and a small fan) going for the 3-4 days we had now power as a
result of hurricane Katrina. This plan is tried and true.
I have been reading on a lot of fish keeper forums that everyone is
wondering how to keep their tanks running when the power goes off? I have
lived in south Florida my whole life and in between the intense lightning
storms and the hurricanes living temporarily with no power is definitely a
regular and expected event. Worry no more as I am about to share a couple
tips with you that will not only keep the air going but your filters and
heater too! If you follow all of these tips you could theoretically run your
tanks forever without using a wall socket.
Here is what you will need:
1-Odyssey 925 cranking amps, sealed, deep cycle, dry cell battery. Odyssey
makes batteries for the military and recently made these available to the
public.  This battery is smaller in size than your car battery, but packs
wayyy more amperage.  The reason I specify THIS battery is because: IT IS
DANGEROUS TO BRING A NORMAL CAR BATTERY IN THE HOUSE!! DO NOT DO THIS!
Normal car batteries contain sulfuric acid and are prone to vapor leakage.
VERY DANGEROUS! The Odyssey is a SEALED, DRY CELL. Nothing will ever
endanger you inside this battery unless you were to crack it open with an
axe. There are other sealed, deep cycle batteries on the market but none are
as small or low price as this one. Also has lifetime warranty. If your
budget permits I suggest buying two of these as it will allow you to keep
your tanks running seamlessly if planned right.
http://www.batterystore.com/Odyssey/PC925.htm
1-400 Watt DC to AC Power Inverter. I use a Black & Decker model I purchased
at Wal-Mart for $40. Has quiet built-in-fan. I suggest using a 400 watt
inverter as they have 2 outlets available on them. I have used power
inverters from other companies and they will basically all do the job,
however I must admit the Black & Decker unit was definitely quieter and of
better quality. Make sure you get one that comes with alligator clamps that
can be clamped directly on the battery. When you get this unit open it, test
it, and become familiar with it.
I suggest having extension cords available as some people like me have more
than one tank but not in the same room as each other. Remember you are no
longer relying on wall sockets. Your power is going to come from the
inverter and if you have multiple tanks you probably have to run extension
cords to allow your pumps plugs to reach the inverter (again this is only if
you are powering more than one tank).
Now to get to it. The inverter is going to come with alligator clamps so you
can attach it directly to your car battery. I suggest you find a location
that is in the middle of all your tanks. Put down a towel or some thick
cloth on the ground. Place the battery in the middle of this towel. This is
just to keep the battery off the floor and moisture away from it. Place the
positive and negative (red and black) alligator clamps from the inverter on
the terminals of the battery and turn the unit on. If you have everything
hooked up correct the inverter should power up, if anything is wrong the
inverter will sound an alert or simply not power up. You can now plug in your pumps to the inverter.
If you have a big tank with air and multiple pumps, I suggest using only one
pump per tank while the power is out. This will allow you to keep the water
moving for the most amount of time. You don't even really need to keep your
air pump going so long as your water is moving (circulation oxygenates water
all by itself). On my 75 gallon I have a canister filter and an Emperor hang
on tank. I keep just the Emperor running when the power goes out as it not
only circulates the water but also heavily oxygenates due to its bio-wheel.
By doing this your fish can basically go on happily and never notice a
change in the water chemistry. After hurricane Katrina hit my power was off
four 3-4 days. I didn't even have to do a water change when the power came
back on my 26 gallon since the Aquaclear 50 on their tank never stopped
running. Silly that I have to mention this but do NOT bother plugging in
your lights unless you have a reef system that NEEDS it. Lights will drain
your battery much faster than your pumps will.
Ok now here is how you can keep this system running FOREVER with no wall
power.
1-The Odyssey battery is really a super car battery. If you were to purchase
TWO of the Odyssey batteries you could have one powering your tanks and keep
the other. you guessed it. UNDER YOUR HOOD! If you have one functioning as
your car battery it will always be full. When the power in your home goes
out and use all the power in your battery just swap it with the one under
your hood. Since the battery you are putting under your hood will be dead
you WILL need a jumpstart to get your car started. You could do this forever
and always have a battery full to run your tanks. I know this is a lot of
work but hey you only have to do it in times of extreme weather/power
outages and anyway no one said this was supposed to be fun. It's about
keeping your fish ALIVE!  
-----OR-------
2-Harness the power of the S U N! Solar power panels are very inexpensive
now. You can purchase a "briefcase" that opens up to be 2 solar panels. You
can then use this to keep your Odyssey battery fully charged. This unit is
one example of the "solar power briefcase":
http://www.action-electronics.com/solar.htm. If you search these on eBay you
will find a bunch at great prices. While these could power your fish tank
pumps by them selves, they will only work while the sun is out so better to
use them to keep your battery charged so you can keep the pumps running at
night as well. (I have never used the solar power method explained here, I
just provide it as a suggestion. I highly recommend you do a little homework
on this and search for the best solution for you)
If you are sure you have everything planned out properly you could even use
the inverter to power your cell phone charger, run a small fan, etc Any of
the really low power things you have that need electricity.
Best of luck to my fellow fish keepers~!
Adam Goldstein
<Again, thank you for your efforts, sharing. RMF>

Protecting your aquarium setups in power losses
Well I searched WWM for this info but didn't see it so I figured I'd offer this fairly inexpensive protection for our pricey setups.  I went to Best Buy and bought a battery backup and surge protector rated for computers this allows for brief power outages without losing vital pieces of equipment. mine bottom of the line unit (65$ before rebates 20 after) will run a internal filter with air line attached for about an hour or so which with a 55 gallon tank the O2 runs low after 2 hours or so which I run the filter for 15 min etc there are some figures to get it right for your tank but the other great part is that if a piece is fried by a power surge the company will replace or repair from 50,000$ or more depending on different models. I bought mine from APC and the warranty doesn't say what you can't use it on you just write what it is used for. I have saved hundreds pf dollars in fish and LR by powering my heater, and that cheap filter to keep the flow and O2 going its a cheap but effective piece that should be a part of any serious aquarists system fresh or salt. its the life insurance policy you'll be glad you got.
<Jager, my only concern would be is that the "bottom line" APC would not have the current capacity to run say a 100 watt heater and/or other equipment. James (Salty Dog)>

Power outage
Hello. I posted a message on the chat room and got some good advice from Steven. However, since then I have done a few things and heard more news. My situation. Power outage occurred last night at about 3:30 a.m., it is now 3:30 p.m. (12 hrs). Taking Steven's advice I placed 2 battery operated Hagen air pumps in my aquarium. <good> 75 gallon reef tank, shrimp, hermits, some softies, coral beauty and true percula clownfish. I last checked on my tank around 2:00. Everything seems to be okay. the corals, of course, are not really out due to the lack of light and circulation. <yes sounds about right>
The power co. said the power will HOPEFULLY be back on by Thursday. <good to hear> 150,000 homes are without power in Toledo due to storms. <bummer> I have also been adding freshwater to the tank. I unplugged my filter (emperor carbon system). I read that when the power comes back on it my kick extra unwanted junk into the tank. <yes, this has happened to me before>
Is there anything else I should do. <Not really...if you feed your clownfish make sure you feed them very very sparingly> I read also not to do a water change until the power comes back on. <I wouldn't bother doing one until the power came back on> I had some water mixing last night, but now the power is out. I have not did a water change since last Thursday. the 4th of July and traveling set me behind. Please advise. <Your aquarium should be fine until the power comes back on> Your advice is always good. I also have a p. firefish into qt. I placed an air stone in their also. <Yes, he should be alright...just make sure you have a tight fitting cover. they are jumpers you know>
I have had my set up for about 8 months, and have done really well. Damn Mother Nature. <Everything should be ok, just be patient my friend>
Thanks
mike in Toledo<You're welcome, IanB in Orlando>

Power failure for 15 hours 8/1/04
Hi all, I blew it big time last night.  I turned off the power to our 90g reef tank w/o knowing it.  The power was out for 15 hours.  The cleaner shrimp, kole tang, sailfin tang, a fang blenny and emerald crabs died. <Yikes!!  Sorry for your losses.>
5 green Chromis, snails, conch, brittle star and Clarkii clown are still alive. All the corals appear to be doing pretty well. The tank has a 4-5" sandbed, Berlin skimmer, 3 powerheads, sump w. sandbed. Our lights are 4 x 96 pc.s. We have roughly 100 - 125 lbs of LR.  We immediately took out everything alive (rock, fish, inverts) and performed a 50% water change.  Then we put the rock back in and it's running now.  There are also some snails which were hiding in the sand.  The water temperature is fine. The current nitrite level is roughly .5, the ammonia .2 and nitrates 25mg/l. We use ro/di water and it gets changed weekly - 10 - 15%When we turned on the tank there were lots of copepods (dead) floating around and small slug-like animals sucking on the glass.  We have 2 smaller tanks which we put the corals in.  I plan to add a PolyFilter to the sump. <You are fortunate to have other tanks to house your survivors!  Please keep them where they are until you have confirmed that the tank has re-cycled and ammonia and nitrite are undetectable.  Also, you may wish to employ some mechanical filtration to get rid of any pod corpses or other yuck that may be floating around.>
My question is how is the sand bed affected by the loss of oxygen?  Do we need to replace part or all of it? <You may want to consider replacing it.  It is hard for a sand bed to recover from a major die off (which may or may not have occurred).  A good compromise may be to replace about half of the sand (removing side to side, not top to bottom) now and the other half in a few weeks.  This will allow bacteria and surviving critters to populate the new sand.>
Should I put the inverts back in the tank? The tank was healthy before and would like to know the best steps.  I didn't see anything similar so I'm writing.  Thanks, Nancy  <You certainly can move the animals back after the cycle is completed, but do add animals back slowly if possible and pay close attention to water quality as you do. Best regards.  AdamC.>

Power failure questions II 10/8/03
I need as much info as possible.  The sump/power outage/water on the floor issue is the last question I have...but it's a big one my apartment is full of books. Please help, Y-
<Yuell... this is very difficult to explain via e-mail. And yet could be answered or realized in seconds with a visit to a local fish store or member of a local aquarium society. Regardless of your overflow box/hole source... the prevention of a sump overflow is a remarkably easy thing to calculate properly. What big city do you live in or near? I can perhaps suggest someone for you to consult locally to make this all very clear. Else, you can make sure the return tube does not extend below the water surface in the display. Then fill the display until it just begins to overflow, then stop.... then fill the sump until it is near the top, then stop. And at that point with all power off... and the display and sump filled... you are at max system volume. When you next turn the power on, then water level in the sump will fall as the plumbing gets filled and after that level stabilizes... you simply mark a line on the sump as the max running level. You now know at that point for the future that as long as you never fill the running sump beyond that point, your sump cannot overflow. Hoping this helps. Anthony>

-Loss of power-
Hello! <Hopefully the power still remains, I apologize for the delay!>
I just got back to my home in DC to prepare for the coming hurricane, but have not been able to get any battery-powered powerheads for my fish tank (a generator would be out of the question as I am inside an apartment).  Here's my question:  I have a 90 gallon fish tank with 80lbs of live rock, 3" of sand, a sump, 2 tang, 2 ocellaris, 1 neon goby, 2 shrimp, no coral.  I
know I should have planned more for this contingency, but what should I do if the power is off for a substantial time period (2 days)?  Are there any household tools that I can use to get oxygen in the tank?  Should I stir the tank, even blow bubbles into it with a straw--and how often? <I'd stir it up vigorously a few times per hour to get some kind of gas exchange going. Bubbling through a straw, although fun to watch and do, will do little to keep the oxygen level up.> How long with no water movement will they be ok? <It's tough to say, just keep stirrin'> Any info you can give me is greatly appreciated--hopefully I will get your answer before we lose power! <Good luck on this potentially bad situation... -Kevin>
So many thanks,
Laura

- Weathering Ivan -
You've given us so much valuable advice and once again we have some questions.  We live in the Gulf Breeze/Pensacola area and had to evacuate on Tuesday. <I can sympathize - I live in Boca Raton, and had to deal with Frances but didn't have to evacuate... that certainly complicates things.> We have 4 tanks: 1 reef tank with fish, 100 gal; 1 FO salt water 100 gal tank with dogface puffer, Naso tang, maroon clown and Chromis; 1 fresh water tank, 100 gal with plants and fish; and 1 salt water FO 180 gal tank.  We fed all our fish on Tuesday before we left.  We have battery operated bubblers in all our tanks. <I hope those batteries last. Have you ever tested these units to get a sense of how long they'll run on a fresh set of batteries?> We also have a 5,000 gal Koi Pond. <Well... that will certainly get a water change.> We are not sure when we can return to our home, or what condition it will be in, but we are hoping we can get back by Saturday. <I'm hoping with you.> When we get home, we have a generator to get the pumps running.  Our main concern is how long can our fish survive without food? <They'll probably be fine, but certainly will be very hungry by then... would be prepared for some amount of loss, let's hope it's not your home.> We are so worried about all that is going on, and would welcome any info you can give us. <Well... these things are so variable, depending on exactly when you lose power, how soon you can get back, what kind of health the fish were in to begin with, etc. I'm glad you have a generator, is very wise given the number of tanks you have, and with some luck you've got a good stock of fuel available and won't have to wait too long for renewed supplies. It sounds to me like you've done all you can do short of bringing all the fish with you in buckets which really isn't practical so... I'm crossing my fingers for you and hoping for the best.>
thanks so much,
carol
<Cheers, J -- >

Riding Out The Storm (Preparation For Possible Power Failure)
Hi Scott,
<Hi there!>
I have been doing pretty good and I hope you have too.  I am sure you are still on the tea.
<In fact, just made a fresh batch of Thai Iced tea today!>
I am not going to keep you even through I would like to catch up since it's been a while since I have wrote.
<No problem...It's always a pleasure>
But to the question.... if this hurricane causes  the weather to get bad enough to lose electricity what can I do for my two tanks. One is a 73 gallon salt water and the other is a 125 salt water. What can I do or long long will they be ok?  Please reply ASAP.  My computer is broke and I am having to use one at work and I can not get on here a lot. Teri
<Well, Teri- first and foremost, I hope that you and everyone else in Florida can ride out this storm with no damage. Our thoughts are with you! As far as protecting the fish during a long power outage, about the best thing that you can do (short of finding a backup generator to supply power) would be to mix up as much fresh salt water as you can, and perform frequent water changes (like every other day, if you can). Battery powered air pumps are good, but I'm sure that they are not going to be easily available to you right now. Best you can do is to try to change water to minimize metabolite accumulation and provide some additional aeration periodically. You could also simply scoop up water from the display and pour it back into the tank...A primitive aeration technique that can help. Hope it does not come to that, but it's best to be prepared. Do let us know how everything works out! Regards, Scott F.>

- Hurricane-induced Power Outages -
hi
We live in Florida and have a 100 gal marine tank, and a 30-gal freshwater tank, with all the hurricane activity we wondered how long can fish typically live without electricity for the air- filters  and pumps. <Well... provided you do something about it, perhaps as long as you have the energy. For a system of this size though, you'd be best off with a generator and a supply of fuel to make it through a week. Your other option is to keep the water aerated by removing pitchers of water and then pouring them back in to circulate the water and keep the oxygen levels up. Depending on the density of livestock in the tank, the tank could probably make it 12 hours or so with no intervention, but by the end of that time serious problems would be developing. Personally I wouldn't wait more than an hour to intervene.>
thanks
<Cheers, J -- >

- Dealing With Frances -
Hello everybody
I live in spring Hill Fla right where hurricane Frances is heading for! I have two well established salt tank with a bunch of animals in my reef as well as my fish only tank. Our power is sure to go out when it hits Sunday/Monday. I cant find a generator or battery powered air pumps even. What is the best thing I can do to save my animals and their bacteria bed during the power outage? <Your best bet is to try and remove pitchers of water and pour them back in from a height, so that you both move water around and aerate it.> I was thinking of dipping water in and out of the tank for the tank and pouring water through the skimmer box for the bio bed and then returning water to the tank. <Yes, in this case, you want to make sure the filtration system gets some water too.> How often do I have to do that to everything going. <Depends on the size of the tank - the smaller, the more frequent - I would think between 15 to 30 minutes.> I think I have some sleepless nights ahead of me! <Yup... I live in Boca Raton and had several, even with my generator.> You advise would be great
Thanks
Kirt
<Cheers, J -- >