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Ich treatment complications – 12/13/12
I write today about Ich in my display. A bit of a background first:
My display is a custom 180 that has been running since July. It was an
upgrade from my 75 gallon and I used almost all the rock, water and sand
from the 75 when making the switch. I initially let the new tank cycle
completely for 12 weeks and then did the swap. All parameters are stable
in the new tank with ammonia and nitrite at 0, nitrate at about 5. Alk
is 8.2 and calcium is being adjusted down from a high 480. Currently at
450. Mag is at 1320. Did have some trouble with phosphates being 0.3
initially but now getting under control at 0.08.
Current stock in the way of fish includes a yellow tang, 2 Firefish, an
orchid Dottyback, a watchman goby, 2 pajama cardinals, one Banggai
cardinal and a pair of true Perculas. All fish have been with me for a
while or were added after 4 weeks of QT recently.
I noticed yesterday that the tang has quite a few white spots. My fish
have been Ich free for the past three years but looks like it has been
triggered somehow (my guess is the move or I missed symptoms during QT
for one of the fish). The other fish are not showing any signs yet. The
infections looks pretty heavy though the fish does not show any weakness
at this point.
<Mmm, no spots, other indications on the other fishes... I'd hold off on
treating, moving all for now... the spots on the Yellow Tang may not be
anything pathogenic... could be discrete body mucus "dots", perhaps even
just sand stuck on this stickier fish species>
My plan was to move all the fish to the 75 and treat using hypo leaving
the display fallow for 10 weeks. Other than the concern that the
75 would be bursting at the seams with this load (am working out a
solution for that with an additional smaller tank), I have one
additional concern. I have a mandarin that was waiting in the 75 to be
moved once the pod population had caught up in the new tank. Clearly I
cannot leave it in the 75 if I am going to remove all the sand and
residual rock. It is currently fat and healthy and has been since I got
it over 2 years ago. Would swapping it to the display simply mean
providing a host for the parasite?
<Possibly yes; a "reservoir host">
I do realize that they are somewhat more resistant that other fish but not
immune to the infection.
<Yes; this is so>
I am at a bit of a loss about how to tackle this situation with the
mandarin and would appreciate your thoughts.
<As stated; I'd just wait for now... not move, nor treat>
As regards the treatment for the rest, I plan to run the SG down to 1.09
<Mmm, missing a zero>
slowly as has been prescribed and then bring it back up even slower. I
know Firefish are not fans of freshwater dips. Should I be concerned
about their reaction to hypo?
<Am not a fan of hyposalinity treatments period... search, see my,
others input on WWM re.>
As always, appreciate your guidance.
<And just in case this is Protozoal, please read here:
for input, hopefully solace. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich treatment complications – 12/13/12
Oops yes indeed missing a zero. Not that much of a novice. Not the best
typist though. I have seen your thoughts on hypo vs. copper. I was just
avoiding the hassle of twice a day copper tests and since my 75 has not
auto top off, keeping copper levels steady would be a challenge. Am
certainly up to it though.
<I'd go w/ quinine (CP) rather than copper here; IF/when treating>
I doubt it is sand on the tang. It is brushing against the rock and such
so does indeed look like Ich. It is swimming around effortlessly,
breathing fine but tilt from side to side ever so often like it wants to
brush against something. It is also visiting the cleaner shrimp often.
Would removing just the tang for now be a better stop gap solution?
<Mmm, no; I'd leave all in place>
The mandarin can be moved to the new tank in this case I can
monitor/treat the tank as necessary.
Re: Ich treatment complications – 12/13/12
Thank you for your thoughts Bob. Just one last question; how do I
determine when it is time to change plans? If other fish start to pick
<Mmm; more so, yes. Please read where you've been referred. B>
Thank you for your help.
Possible Ich, ongoing... also Xanthichthys hlth. f' -
This is a better view.
<Better resolved, but the subject is way too small in the frame...>
Please excuse the feeding debris. I installed a good UV, which I did not
have Prior. Performing 10-15 percent water changes weekly as
usual, keeping good parameters. 1.023, 79 degrees. Skimming, filter sock
frequent changes. I hope you can see the body spots and cloudy
stuff on the top fin. Again, he eats well, and we added garlic to
the food. We use Rod's food.
<A good product in my estimation>
There may be a Coral Beauty with Ich as well. He has white spots.
<... these spots could be evidence of parasitic infestation to nothing
but mucus irritation... W/o sampling and microscopic examination I'd do
The tank seems happy. The beauty and trigger will be tough to catch.
Any reef safe treatments or suggestions other than what I'm currently
<There are no such thing/s as effective AND reef-safe treatments>
Do fish always die with Ich, or is a complete recovery possible?
<The latter, assuredly>
Thank you for your time. Dan
<Certainly welcome. BobF>
Another bizarre incident as we restock the 220!
Greetings Bob and Crew at WWM!
Interesting thing, well, only "interesting" this moment, but it may
prove to be devastating.
I have had a Acanthurus pyroferus and a (old, meaning I've had a while)
Labroides dimidiatus in bare tank, bare bottom quarantine together for
the past 30 days. I decided to place them in my 220 gallon display
yesterday as they were one of the last "groups" of fish returning.
Currently in the tank, in order of placement: 7 Chromis viridis, 1
Amblygobius phalaena with 1 Salarias ramosus (the belly dancer without
intestinal parasite), 1 Forcipiger flavissimus, Macropharyngodon
geoffryi (she-he was too nasty to the M bipartitus in their too small
reef QT, very aggressive eater so I thought if any "leopard wrasse" was
going to have a chance in this display, it would be she-he. By the way,
I think she is turning into a he, with the red tipped dorsal fin), 5
Pseudanthias bicolor, 1 Nemateleotris magnifica (this was one of a pair
that really wasn't a pair, and was the aggressor), and an Amphiprion
ocellaris. Well, this morning as I got up super early to feed the M.
geoffryi and bipartitus, I noticed there were SPOTS SPOTS SPOTS on the
A. pyroferus! My heart leapt into my throat but I held my cool, at least
on the surface, for my cute little fishie friends...Anyway, I took a
deep breath, got my net,
<Nets, use two>
turned on the lights, and went fishing! As all the little fishes came
awake, I dreaded to see how the L. dimidiatus was as they shared the QT,
and he too, was covered in spots. I caught both fish within 40 minutes,
and took a good look at them under good light, and indeed, they had
round, white, round, salt like grains all over them. Now, here is a girl
who dealt with Crypt for what? Three years! So, hey, I know Crypt spots
when I see it. And, did it look like a most horrendous infection! Not to
mention "advanced" as they both had this terrified look to their eyes
and appear to have rapid breathing. Back to the fish room they go!
Several hours later (during which I prayed to the fish gods that after a
less than 12 hour exposure, my tank is not infected), I finally had the
stomach to look at those two wicked creatures. I find them spot less?!?
Okay, what do I have? A case of the fish with "sleep" in their eyes -
meaning, were they slimy during the night and they were in fact covered
<One can hope... but why not sand on the other slimy fishes... e.g. the
Or a very evil and deceptive form of Cryptocaryon irritans - hiding in the
young and angelic appearing tang and wrasse, waiting for the moment to
infect the universe! Popping out at the first sign that other innocent
fishes are about and a-ha!
Dear Bob, my husband suggested that I was so traumatized by my previous
experience with Crypt that I see things.
I hope that I was seeing things so my fishies are safe...but what are the
chances of it really being Crypt that sprung up overnight and popped off
within 2 hours. I only say two because that was how long I waited to go
look at them.
Well, I hope that all is going well with you and that you are able to
stay cool or do something involving water during this heat wave!
I look forward to hearing your reply!
Best wishes and many thanks,
<I urge patience, further observation, and a thorough dip/bath (w/
formalin and aeration) for all fishes being moved to and fro. BobF>
Re: Another bizarre incident as we restock the 220! Crypt, diag.
I did a little detective work this morning and went with a flash light
into the fish room to check on those two and yipper's, they looked
exactly as they did yesterday morning. Okay now. Reality - they have
some type of parasitic infection that appears a little different from
<Nothing on the other fishes>
The "cycle" is definitely strange (in my minimal understanding), as of
lights on this morning, the spots on both fishes are gone. The only sign
there may be something there is that the A. pyroferus's pectoral fins
are a little patchy looking (like how they respond when the water
quality is not as good), otherwise her "skin" looks fine without the
bumpiness or white spots. She and the cleaner wrasse has been eating
very well without any flashing behaviors the whole time I've had them in
QT. I will get some pictures today and tomorrow before lights on and
send them to you.
<Really of limited service... You need to or have someone else sample
the body slime, look under a 'scope. These spots may be just body
slime... something about how the two fishes have been kept, treated>
I've lowered the salinity in the DT just slightly last night with a 50
gallon water change, knowing that it really wouldn't do anything except
making feel like I've done something for the fishes. I started
Chloroquine diphosphate treatment for the tang and the wrasse. They will
be my guinea pigs to see how Chloroquine works on this parasite.
I will keep my fingers crossed and pray all the time to hope that I
removed the fishes BEFORE the parasites cycled off the fish and into my
Isn't it my luck!?! After chlorine-ing my whole tank!
I will hold off on adding any more fish to the DT. The 7 inch
Pomacanthus imperator will just have to stay in his 75 gallon bare tank
for the next two months or so until I'm sure the DT is still "clean".
One thing I wanted to share and encourage others to do: Please check
your fish in the DT early morning before lights on so that you can see
if any parasite is on the fish! I remember reading somewhere about this
but never thought I would see it...
Bob, what do you think this parasite is? The cycle is really strange
because with Crypt, you see spots of fish for around 4 days before they
cycle off...This no spots during lights on (or the day), then spots
after lights off. I will send pictures and maybe they will add a clue to
Hope you have a wonderful weekend!
<Thus far... B>
Re: Another bizarre incident as we restock the 220!
Correct, Bob. There is nothing on any of my other fishes.
And you are right, I need to get a microscope and really become a
"amateur" marine biologist - or something like that.
<You're more than this already Jamie>
I am glad that in your interpretation of a "wonderful weekend" involves
answering e-mails! Lucky for us!
<Heeee! It does indeed fill me w/ wonder at times. Cheers, B>
Re: Another bizarre incident as we restock the 220!
An update. 24 hours after treating with Chloroquine diphosphate - no
white spots. Her skin looks somewhat like that of a pimply faced
teenager, and that is only when she swims directly facing me so that I
can see a profile.
<A sort of chemical burn from the CD/P>
Hummm... I was reading about how to get a skin scraping from a fish
yesterday - wow! I think I should start building my little laboratory
Very complex stuff.
<Not really... Once you've done it a few times...>
I never thought getting a little 8 gallon nano 6 years ago would lead to
this, but the best part of it all? Besides all my fishie friends, it's
to get to know all the nice people in this hobby...especially YOU!
Re: Another bizarre incident as we restock the 220!
You make me laugh!
"<Not really... Once you've done it a few times...>"
French Angel and Ich?
i have been battling an Ich outbreak over the last month using
<Mmm, what type/kind... how administered? This system has rock
in it... presents interaction issues>
This picture shows what I initially thought was a
reinfection, but I am not so sure. The angel's body has
small white blotches along with what is seen here in the
picture. What makes me doubt that it is Ich is the fact
that when viewing the fish head on, these spots rise off the body
very noticeably and they differ in size.
<Need to sample body mucus, observe under a low power
microscope. See WWM re>
From the angle in the picture, the spots do appear to be
more flush than they really are, but the way they stick out of
the body makes me wonder if it could be something else.
<Good question... could be... simple irritation... from the
Quinine, other source>
I am hoping that you guys can help me find out what this
could be if it is indeed not a reoccurrence of the Ich.
<.... only can be found out by examining... as stated
The only thing that comes to mind is lymph, but I've never
seen that disease show so many spots as this angel has.
Also, my Atlantic Blue Tang.
which has been my Ich magnet is showing no signs of infection,
despite the angel showing these spots for a about five
days. I am also curious how long Ich spots remain in their
location vs. lymph which stay in the same spot. For
example, if this spot pattern remains exactly the same for a
certain amount of time, would that indicate something other than
Ich, which falls off the fish in time. For what it's
worth, the fish is not
exhibiting any other signs of disease -- eating well and
<I'd spiff up water quality and nutrition and call it a
Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
"and the linked files above". Bob Fenner>
Healthy fish with white spots
Hello WWM. thanks for your volume of helpful info. I'm a newcomer
to the hobby and so far everything has gone by the book. I have a
36 gallon tank with 30 pounds of live rock, 10 lbs of
live sand and 30 lbs of crushed coral. after a textbook cycle, we added
a cleaner shrimp and 4 Turbos. A week later we added a ocellaris
clownfish and a flame angel.
<Mmm, this last... needs more room>
both took to there new environment right away and seem extremely
healthy and even friendly. midweek we had to rescape the rock and
disturbed the tank. I have white larvae on the glass front
<Mmm, many possibilities... highly unlikely pathogenic>
but on two occasions I have notice white spots in the angels tail
The next day the spots are gone and it shows no signs of distress. I
don't believe it's Ich, since the fish seems so healthy. will
larvae attach to the fish?
would it be wise to pull the fish out to a qt and treat them just in
<Nope; more harmful than doing nothing>
I was worried about stressing them unnecessarily. you're thoughts
are greatly appreciated. Melanie
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ich like spots 1/9/12
Ladies and Gents,
Thanks you very much for your reply.
unfortunately I have no microscope to have better view of the
<Mmm, easy to acquire... I have a conventional transmission
analog type, but mostly use the Mattel-Intel QX>
But I took some pictures that are not as clear as I would like,
but see if you can give me your comments.
The cyst have been there at least 4-5 days so if it was Ich they
should be bigger and more in the surface.
<Mmm, no; not necessarily>
They seem to be inside the fins "ribs" and not on the
surface. They are aligned. Resisted a 30 min FW dip, and are
smaller then Ich.
I will wait a couple of days and repeat the visual inspection. By
then I will try to scrape one off and take it to a vet for
What do you think? see below excel file.
<Does appear to be Cryptocaryon... likely was resident in the
system (very common)... not brought in w/ the Tang itself>
<A bunch that could be stated... You are aware that this
fish/species is very susceptible to this infestation? Needs a
very well established, large (hundreds of gallons) system to
generally stay healthy? You can read (for free of course) my
article on PBTs on WWM; our collective efforts/FAQs....
Curing it at this point... Read here:
re options. Bob Fenner>
I have not written in years.. all has been well with my tank. I have a
55 gal with a 30 gal refugium, 80# live rock, mushrooms and metallic
The fish include a goby, clownfish, coral beauty, Hawkfish, bicolor
blenny, royal gramma Basslet and couple of hermit crabs. Question is
the blenny looks like it is covered in dust.
<Mmm... it might be... no other fishes are similarly afflicted I
He does hide in a small cave in the live rock which is why I thought it
was dust but it doesn't appear to be coming off. All the other fish
look the same except the clownfish is swimming at the top of the tank
back and forth very fast which is unusual. Side note: I have not
introduced anything into this tank in 2 years. I have made absolutely
no changes (of course regular water changes). Could this be a fungus or
<Mmm, well, these are omnipresent... just as on land/terrestrial
environments, in/on all organisms...>
I checked the website but all of those involve introduction of new
livestock. Thank you
<Could you send along a well-resolved pic or two? There are latent
protozoan infestations that are possibilities... you could do skin et
al. sampling and look w/ a microscope re... Am thinking this blenny may
be being harassed by the Gramma, perhaps the Cirrhitid here... might be
"just" small bits of substrate stuck to its copious body
slime/mucus. When in doubt, water change/s! Bob Fenner>
Re: Dusty Blenny 10/11/11
Thank you for the response, Bob but I feel like a nervous mom. It
appears to have been rock dust.
He looks perfectly fine and back to normal. Sorry to have botheredd
Thank you again.
<Thank you for this follow up Jen. BobF>
Marine Ich Misdiagnosis!!!! 6/4/11
Hey there Crew, I TRULY love this site! I have a 180 gallon salt tank.
It has a sump and protein skimmer. I have a Male blonde Naso (The stud)
blue hippo tang, royal gramma, a couple of clown fish, sleeper banded
goby, and coral beauty. I did a water change this morning and adjusted
my skimmer. I came home this afternoon and noticed I had a light cloud
in my tank. I thought nothing of it because I did a water change a few
hours ago. I started looking at my fish and noticed a few spots on my
Tang, Angel, and
gramma. I was ready to freak out and start freshwater dipping! Then I
figured I would look up my favorite trusty web site. Before I started
this attack WetWebMedia of course. I found a story about a guy who had
skimmer and its was putting small micro Ich like bubbles on his fish. I
checked my skimmer and it was overflowing from my adjustment this
morning. YAAA No Ich! I truly do love this site. There is info and I
cant get enough!
<Thank you for your report and kind word Jim. Bob
boxfish, is it ich or something else?
I have a HD video of two boxfish posted here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejzKOVhTchc
you may want to skip 1st minute.
<Mmm, can't bring up... someone is hogging up the bandwidth
Those white spots are on the fish fins for about 2 weeks by now,
<Not pathogenic... would have too likely have killed this Ostraciid
no signs that their number is going up or down. It was suggested and it
sounds logical not to treat fish for something unless you're sure
what the problem really is. I don't believe it could be micro
bubbles from skimmer since the spots number is constant over time.
<I think you may well be right. Puffers are generally quite slimy,
compared w/ most other fish groups... Sand particles, small bubbles to
adhere to them. A pertinent note: you don't want too many fine
bubbles present in captive systems... i.e. there are a few
environmental diseases that are resultant from... see WWM re
emphysematosis in particular, and look into ways of limiting/coalescing
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Identifying Parasites from FW Dip 2/14/11
I have a red firefish in a new 29 gallon FOWLR tank. He's the only
fish I've purchased so far, so I didn't do a quarantine, and
being new at this I wasn't confident enough to do a FW dip. Over
the five days that he was in the tank he was dashing his head against
the sand about once every ten minutes...clearly an itchy fish! I
thought it might be a gill infection (Ich, velvet, gill flukes...?)
<Mmm, perhaps. Much more likely though "something"
disagreeable w/ water quality>
I caught him and did a FW dip. Almost immediately about a dozen white
bumps started swelling on his body, and fell off. They were about a
millimeter in length, and shaped like slightly elongated disks:
in one dimension, and elliptical in the other two dimensions. Based on
the size and shape of these things, can I rule out velvet or Ich?
<Mmm, can't say from the description; but not likely
Protozoans... more likely Flukes>
I don't know how big the velvet or Ich parasites are when they fall
off of a fish during a FW dip, but I'm guessing they may be smaller
<Yes. If anything, they might be incorporated in w/ body mucus to be
this apparently (large) size>
Assuming these are some type of worm or fluke, what do I do now? I have
the fish in a hospital tank, of course, and plan to repeat the dip a
few more times over the next few weeks. How long should I let the
display tank remain fallow to have a good chance of starving out any
juvenile parasites that may hatch? Thanks!
use the search tool, or the indices. Bob Fenner>
marine Ich vs. air bubbles 1/21/11
I just read on your site about a case of mistaken identity--crypt on a
batfish that turned out to be micro bubbles.
I may have a similar situation but it is very confusing for me so I am
hoping you can shed some light on it. In my 75 gallon reef tank, the
newest occupant (about 3 mos. ) is a pyramid butterfly. (Don't
worry, he is moving to one of my larger tanks once he gets a little
bigger.) He is very attached to a copper band butterfly and they are
These BF's are social animals>
Several nights ago, I was very upset to discover the pyramid had what
appeared to be a very serious case of Cryptocaryon irritans although
the number of "cysts" were so plentiful-covering every bit of
the fish and so pervasive and fine I wondered if it could be
Amyloodinium ocellatum (there is a "rolled in sugar"
appearance that didn't look like crypt). I was really devastated
because the parameters are very good in this tank and there has been no
sign of disease for several years. My reading about parasitic diseases
told me that it appeared to be a very advanced case and that the fish
probably couldn't be saved. However, the fish's appetite is
tremendous, eyes are clear, respiration is normal and there is no
scratching or lethargy. I did a freshwater dip immediately and it
didn't budge the "cysts" at all. He tolerated it
beautifully and ate well afterwards. Nothing else in the tank (which
does have a 24 watt UV sterilizer on it) has any symptoms, including
the copper band or the tuka Anthias which should be even more
susceptible. (Or not?)
<About the same>
By tonight, the "cysts" have --somehow--multiplied to the
point that the butterfly should be really struggling but he is once
again behaving completely normally.
If it is micro bubbles, why is he the only fish exhibiting them?
<For whatever reason/s this fish is "slimier", more
susceptible to having bubbles adhere to it, and/or behaviorally
it's hanging, swimming about in "bubble land"
Why did they just now appear? Why are they so persistent? There are
slower fish (black cap Basslet, geometric Perchlet and a pair of
ocellaris--1 black and white, 1 naked) with no issues and there are no
apparent bubbles in the tank although there is a protein skimmer that
puts out tiny bubbles for a brief time when I feed the tank.
Would his slime coat be markedly different than the others?
Should I turn off the protein skimmer?
<I would not>
(I have heard that micro bubbles are not good for the fish either, so I
need to address that as well, if that is the case?)
<Possibly; however the fact that you have not (stated) that
you've had issues for years warrants against this>
So sorry for all the questions and if you need additional information
please let me know.
<I'd just watch, wait and see for now. Bob Fenner>
Marine Itch 11/27/10
Its Srinivas form India
Need your help in recognizing what I suspect is marine velvet/itch.
My Koran angel is currently suspected. Its normal in appearance, eats
well swims well and is very active.
When I have a closer look ( sticking on to the front pane), I feel that
the black portion of the body looks a bit smoked..It does not appear so
when I look at it from about a foot apart. NO clear indication of Itch
(as what is seen in infected fishes)
Tank Specifications : 200 gallons FOWLR
Fishes : 1 Koran Angel (7 months), 1 Percula clown (9 Months), 1 Regal
Tang (6 Months) and 1 Tomato Clown (2 months)
<Mmm, the Regal tang would almost assuredly be the first to show
signs of either of these Protozoans>
All these were in my old tank (90 gallon) which broke down. I
transferred them to the existing one constructed a couple of months age
and added them early this month.
The only addition was the Live sand procured.
I never had an itch before. There has been no addition to the existing
Could it be an onset of the disease?
<Not likely, no>
What care should I take?
<Just reading for now; on Koran Diseases, Protozoans... look to
improved water quality and nutrition for the time being.
Is This Crypt? 7/25/10
I have a friend that has a gorgeous Imperator Angel ( 5-6")
that was recently acquired by mail order. It has been in a QT for
approx 4 weeks treated "prophylactically" in SG 1.009
and Chloroquine Phosphate per Goeman's recommendations. The
fish is eating, and seems "OK". The question here is
what are these white spots?
My friend thinks that they are Cryptococcus
<Cryptocaryoniasis, Cryptococcus is a genus of fungi.>
irritans. I am not so sure.
<I believe your friend is correct.>
Firstly, these have been on the fish for 2-3 weeks. The fish is
breathing OK and when one of these lesions does go away there is
some pitting and discoloration. I have seen this before as a form
of HLLE when treating a Naso Tang with hyposalinity.
<Is not a form of erosion.>
Every time we talk this issue comes up. I have recommended that
he continue the Chloroquine but start raising the
salinity. Any thoughts?
<This fish needs to be treated with a more effective
medication. See here.
James (Salty Dog)>
Appears so. RMF
Possible Ich Diagnosis and Remedy Question
Hello and thanks for your time. First let me set the stage. I have a 75
gallon tank that has been setup for 5 weeks from a 30 gallon tank the
tank was allowed to cycle using waste water and live rock from the 30
gallon before the addition of any fish. The parameters are all good.
The livestock include multiple shrimp, snails, hermit crabs and corals
(LPS and softies) with the following fish - Regal Tang, Yellow Tang, 6
line Wrasse, 2 False Perculas, Dragon Goby.
Now the story. About a week ago my clowns began to host my largest
Duncan Coral at which time they had no signs of injury. I was very
excited because I enjoy watching them and the Duncan doesn't seem
to mind. However the Clowns have now developed 4 (3 on one and 1 on the
other) white raised bumps on their body with no small spots on their
fins at all. One of the 4 spots has a red spot in the center. 3 out of
the 4 spots are located near the posterior dorsal fin, the other just
posterior to the gill. One of the clowns (the one with 3 spots) also
has developed a white ring around his eye that I believe is new.
<Were/are these clowns wild-caught? Have you read on WWM re their
The eye does not appear proptotic. This is the fish that spends the
most time in the coral. I believe that means he is becoming or is
already the male?
<Not necessarily... see WWM re... females grow faster,
No other fish show signs of stress or injury. The clowns seem healthy
and are eating well and viciously defending their territory. I'm
wondering if this is ich in its tomont stage or possible damage from
rubbing the coral?
<More likely the latter... but could be a couple of other protozoan
parasites that are more common to Amphiprionines... IF crypt, it would
have def. showed on the tangs first>
Is there anything else I should include on my differential?
If this is ich what can I use to treat the whole tank? I know this is
not ideal but I cannot remove all the fish from the tank at this point
as I live in a 1 bedroom apartment and my wife would kill me.
Thanks for your time my fish and I thank you.
<Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/FishInd2.htm
toward the bottom... Learn to/use the search tool and indices. Bob
Ich with no symptoms -- 02/14/10
how's it going?
<Ok, and you?>
I've been reading up on the articles that's been written about
ich, and I'm a little confused about what's going on with my
About a week ago, I noticed that he had some white spots on his tail
fin and pectoral fins (maybe about over a dozen on his tail fin). Some
of these spots look like the pictures I've seen of fish with ich,
while other spots
look more elongated and almost cloudy.
<Could be summat else>
There's none that I can see on the rest of the body. Around this
time, I also noticed that there were quite a bit of tiny debris/dust
like particles floating in my tank, so I thought it may have been
things like this caught between the fins (if that's even
<Not likely, no>
A few days later, I changed and added in more filter wool and the water
has cleared up a bit since (but still not as clear as it used to be).
Anyways, the spots haven't gone away... and I'm not too sure if
its ich because my fish hasn't been showing any other symptoms - no
scratching, no clamped fins, eating well etc... After I emailed you
last time, I took your advice and bought a red liner cleaner shrimp. I
noticed whenever the shrimp tries to clean the fish's tail, it
shimmers and twitches abruptly and then darts away, but he'll
always comes back to the shrimp soon after. I don't know if this is
normal or if this has anything to do with the white spots on his tail.
Do you have any idea what it may be?
<Could be typical cleaner/host behavior>
<... welcome. BF>
Re: Ich with no symptoms 2/16/10
I'm alright myself thanks, been reading up more on fish-keeping..
didn't realize there was so much to it when I first decided to pick
up the hobby!
So, after I emailed you the other day, I noticed more white spots on my
butterfly but this time on its body and it looked like ich. It was kind
of late, so I decided I was going to set up my quarantine tank in the
When I woke up though, all the spots were gone. I thought these white
spots are usually visible for a few days, or does it vary?
<Yes... often the calm of evening brings a (temporary) cessation of
Well... tonight (two days later) I noticed a few spots again on his
fins... not as many as before though. I thought that's kind of fast
if it's a reinfection of ich.. maybe ich that was still on his body
but just not visible.. or something else entirely. I noticed him flash
once tonight against the sand, but apart from that haven't seen him
rocks or any other symptoms. Does this sound like ich to you?
<It does... you have a not-untypical infested system. Read here:
and the linked files above for background and a view as to your choices
Re: Ich with no symptoms 2/17/10
I read through the faq link you gave me, and I'm guessing with the
live rock/shrimp/hermit crabs that are currently in my main tank, the
best way to treat the tank would be to let it sit fallow for a month or
two... Is that correct?
<Perhaps the best approach to rid the system of "very"
infectious agent/s... but you might do as well to "aim" for a
sort of balance here>
Problem is my quarantine tank is only 5.5gallons, and from what
I've read, I don't think it'd be a good idea to put all my
fish in there. (I have a clown, threadfin butterfly, yellowtail blue
damsel and 2 yellow coral gobies) What do you think?
<Would need a larger treatment system>
Also, on something off topic, what are your thoughts on using Seachem
Purigen instead of a protein skimmer?
<Is a worthy product, but I would still use a skimmer for
I've been looking into getting a protein skimmer for my tank for a
while now (I have a Aquaone 980, and the guy who I bought it from set
it up with the Jaubert system) but all the fish stores I've gone to
have told me I'd
need to drill holes into my filter box if I wanted to fit one in.
<Mmm... there are other approaches... Could you add a sump?>
So, instead it was suggested I add some bags of Purigen in my filter
instead of a protein skimmer. For the time being, I have Purigen in my
filter but I'm not sure whether that'd be ok, since for most
part, everything I've read has indicated it is pretty much
essential to have a protein skimmer. Your thoughts?
<Re chemical filtrants, are posted/archived on WWM.
Re: Ich with no symptoms 2/18/10
Hmm... what do you mean by "aim for a sort of balance"? I
looked into adding a sump... could be a possibility. I'm thinking I
could use my 5.5gallon tank for it, and get a larger quarantine tank if
needed... so I'm just looking into ways I can 'pump' water
into the sump etc now.
<Again the referral to read here:
and the linked files above. B>
Re: Ich with no symptoms
Ah, are you referring to having optimal water parameters and healthy
fish to combat diseases/parasites? I just went through the link again
to see what I missed... and I remember reading about the three circles
in your book. Sorry if I seem kind of thick here!
<Read the linked files above. B>
Ick, Quinine Sulfate, Snails, Shrimp and Hermit
Crabs... reading, helping yourself 2/8/10
I wrote in the other day and was directed to use Quinine Sulfate to
treat my fishes for Ick.
<... please always include previous correspondence>
Mappa Puffer (she's really tiny (1 inch) so all others are safe for
Other occupants are
20-30 Turbo Snails
50 or so Dwarf and Red leg Hermit Crabs
1 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp
I know that my snails will be harmed if I treat them with this but my
tanks Ick problem is REALLY bad. The snails have those little white
spots all over there shells.
<This is not Ich on the snails... likely either encrusting tube
worms of some sort, or "hardness" marks...>
Its also all over the walls and rock too...
<This also is not Ich/Crypt>
so I was wondering how do I get the Ick off of them (the snails and
hermit crabs) with out treating them? Do I do a number of fw dips, or
do I treat them some other way? Does Ick even live on snail shells or
is it possible that this is something else (looks like Ick to me)?
<Is something else, no worries. Do your fishes themselves have
Also I have a Skunk Cleaner Shrimp. Does he need to be kept away from
treatment as well or is it just the hermit crabs, snails and clams that
are in need of being protected?
<I would treat all fishes elsewhere IF they are infested>
I think I remember somewhere on your site that certain inverts could be
treated but a lot cant.
Thank you so much for your help with this. I'm sure I would have
been much worse off with out you and your Crew.
<... please, search before writing us. Start here:
Put in words like "Cryptocaryon Identification", Quinine
use... and read, and soon. IF this is Crypt, your fishes are in
Puffer with parasite(s).. or not? With --
I have a 4.5 year old Stars and Stripes Puffer that I emailed
about a few days ago, I rescued him from my LFS as he was in a 37
gallon tank, I'm in the process of cycling our new 215 gallon
tank, and he'll be going in that shortly. He eats like a pig
and I try to feed him a varied diet soaked in Zoecon supplement.
I was just looking at him up close and he has these little specs
on all of his fins, I can't tell if they're micro air
bubbles or something else, water parameters are as follows:
<Looks like Crypt from here>
Ammonia: 0 / Undetectable
Nitrites: 0 / Undetectable
Nitrates: 0 / I saw a ever so slight hue in the tester so it
could possibly be 2-3
<A bit high... and Mg?>
The water seems fine and I do 30% - 50% weekly water changes just
to ensure things stay okay as he creates a large bio-load and
he's currently in my 55 gallon tank until the larger one
cycles. If you have any idea please let me know! By the way,
he's 13" long so a freshwater dip would be extremely
hard as he's not a fan of being netted.
Thanks again for everything you guys do!
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptpuffs.htm
and the linked files above... and soon. Bob Fenner>
Re: Puffer with parasite(s).. or not?
Thanks that's what I was thinking it was, but I couldn't
be sure so I wanted a second opinion, the other day he ate a Sea
<?! Should not be housed with>
which polluted the tank and I lost a couple of fish and it
stressed him out to the max.
<This system is too small even for the puffer>
I quickly did a 75% water change plus added carbon to the
filtration, I'm assuming that's when he started showing
signs as no other fish has any but him. He's currently
removed from the tank and I'm going to treat based on the
reading in the link you provided.
I appreciate the help! Thanks again.
Re: Puffer with parasite(s).. or not?
I found out the hard way about the Sea Hare, I didn't do
enough research as it escaped my mind that he was even in there.
When I say other fish I mean 4 Green Chromis, there's nothing
else but snails in there, the 215 gallon tank is almost
completely cycled so everything will be in a much larger home,
the total water volume will be around 325 gallons. Thanks
<... Umm, what have you done, will you do to treat the present
Cryptocaryon infestation? If you don't act, haven't acted
yet... these fishes will be lost. Don't write, but read,
formulate a plan (today!) and act! B>
Is it ich? -- 01/17/10
HI Guys (and gals)!!
I appreciate all the help over the years. I've got a question about
ich/white spot. I can't honestly tell whether that's what this
I've got a blue neon goby, a black ocellaris, a high finned red
banded goby, and a green banded goby in a 75 gallon tank (taking my
time upping the stock in the tank and adding corals/inverts in the
meantime). The blue neon goby is the problem. He's not scratching
and he doesn't have them all over. What he's got are two white
spots on him that I never noticed before (could just be me not being
observant about a color pattern). While one of them is the size of a
piece of salt, the other is about 3-5 times as big and looks like a
patch of something instead. They're both white, but they're the
only two on him. I've watched for 3 days and there don't seem
to be any more developing (will continue monitoring though) and none of
the other fish have any troubles at all. I know there are probably
thousands of marine diseases this could be
<Not quite, thank goodness>
and it could be nothing at all, but I've been wanting to buy
another coral and before I go and set up the hospital tank as a QT and
remove the possibility of treating the little buggers, I want to make
sure I've got a better idea. Could this just be a little damage to
the scale-less body from a fight with another goby that I wasn't
<I do think so. If it were one of the few protozoan parasites, there
would be many more spots, marks on all fishes present>
I've heard ich falls off and then reappears.
If I wait a week and don't see any worsening or, worse yet,
disappearance/relapse cycle, do you think I'll be in the clear? Is
there a dip I should use?
<I would not dip your fish/es here. Just wait, be patient>
Thanks again for all the help over the years. I should have read every
post before I set up my first tank. So many preventable errors.
PS As a follow-up, I'm relatively good about the quarantining
(though I'll admit that when I bought the ocellaris for another
tank about 4 years ago I wasn't doing it then. I've never had a
single disease in my tank (not that I can do a necropsy given how fast
the cleanup crew takes care of fish who fall prey). I was under the
impression that ich is really a hitchhiker and I haven't bought
anything new in over 6 months.
<This "spottiness" could be a biological agent, or not...
With time, it will likely "die off" due to
"something" or someone missing in its life cycle. Bob
Amyloodinium/Cryptocaryon, microscopic ID
11/20/2008 Hi all! <Mariusz> I've had a break out of
Amyloodinium or crypt in both my quarantine tanks. Quarantine tank 1
with 2 clowns (died) had symptoms of Amyloodinium (powdery dust).
Quarantine tank 2 has brown powder brown tang and a strawberry dotty
but with symptoms of crypt (salt like dots). I've taken wet smears
of the fish from both tanks. Both showed the same parasites
microscopically. Tank 2 all the fish behaving normally (looks like
crypt), Tank 1 all dead (looked like Amyloodinium). My question is that
I'm have a tough time differentiating Amyloodinium and crypt under
the microscope. I've looked at images in P.T.K Woo's book (Fish
Diseases and disorders vol. 1, 2nd edition) of Amyloodinium tomonts. I
see structures that resemble single Amyloodinium tomonts of various
sizes, huge to small. Then I also see something very similar to these
tomonts but if you look carefully they have very small active cilia.
<This last may be spurious> I figure I may have both Amyloodinium
and crypt. Also these samples have copper in them but from what I
understand copper doesn't effect tomonts of Amyloodinium or crypt.
<Usually not... unless very high dosage/concentration...> So my
confusion is ciliated versions and non-ciliated version of 2 very
similar things, i.e. what is what? <I would look for two (macro,
micro) nuclei here for the Ciliate... the Dinoflagellate is easily
stained with iodine...> Part of me thinks the ciliated versions are
crypt tomonts and non-ciliated are crypt tomonts that are mature and no
longer have cilia and have tomites dividing. With all these things that
look so similar how am I to differentiate what is Amyloodinium or
Cryptocaryon microscopically from smears/wet mounts? <The above is
what I use... Do look for a copy of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease,
Diagnosis & Treatment" for more here> oh forgot there are
red dots in some (not all) of these tomont looking things. <Mmm, the
dinospores of Amyloodinium have red stigma...> Can wait to get my
camera for the scope...this would be so much easier you think?...lol
|Is this Ich? - 07/13/08 Hi crew - <Hello
Joel.> Along with all of your other truly valuable services, I
am very fond of your ability to educate me by identifying various
biological life forms. <I'll give it a try.> I have a
silver-tipped pulsing xenia that has been in QT for 21 days as of
tomorrow <Very good quarantine practice.> , is pulsing quite
happily, and I plan to move to the main display tomorrow as well.
However, I don't know if these guys are tomonts or just some
white filter feeder. <The latter.> These images are all at
10x magnification, and image 2553.JPG shows what they look like
under normal viewing conditions. Any idea what they are?
<Hydromedusae, also called hydroid jellyfish. See
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/jellyidfaqs.htm.> I hope not tomonts.
<Nope. Tomonts are even smaller. They are 300-500 micrometers
and look totally different.> Thanks, Joel.
Sick clown trigger, 6/11/08 Dear WWM,
<Hello> I have had a 5" clown trigger for almost 9
months and recently his fins have been getting cloudy (not the
whole fin, just small parts, almost in a line). I quickly put him
in the hospital tank and treated with copper for seven days and
it all went away. <Copper would not help cloudy fins, most
likely environmental in nature.> The other fish weren't
infected and I left them be. (Picasso Trigger, Niger Trigger,
Yellow Tang, Blue Angel) <Hope this is a big tank.>
Everyone was and still is eating fine, including the clown. I put
the clown back in the main tank with everyone after a week and
everything was great. Two days ago his fins went nuts with spots
and I noticed the Picasso trigger had it also, only A LOT less. I
quickly took them out and put them in the hospital with copper
and let the others be. The next day the blue angel and tang had
Ich like spots so I took all the fish out and put them in a
separate hospital tank (all with the same water parameters).
<Ok, but remember to run the main tank fallow for at least 4
weeks to rid it of this parasite.> My local fish specialty
store, after viewing a picture of the clown trigger, told me that
the spots were to big for Ich and that it looked like more of an
infection than a disease. <Ich is a parasitic infection, so
I'm not sure what they are talking about.> They told me to
treat with Melafix and see how that does. <Tea tree oil,
useless.> The Niger, Yellow Tang and Blue angel are now almost
Ich free but the Clown is getting worse and the Picasso trigger
is also (both in a separate hospital tank). <Check your water
quality and copper levels.> Any idea what this could be?
<Sure sounds like ich to me.> I can send a picture if
needed. <Might help.> I love my Picasso and Clown! I would
hate for anything to happen to them! Thank you, AJ
Re: Sick clown trigger 6/11/08 Hi Chris, <Hello>
They told me it was a biological infection... I cannot explain
what they told me but to sum it up it was a biological infection.
<Too me ich would fall into this category.> The tea tree
oil seems to be helping the clown trigger, but it could just be
my imagination. <Most likely it is just the ich going through
it's lifecycle, it will most likely return in force.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .> Here is a picture.
There are more spots now (including some on his body, but those
are disappearing) but all of them are cloudy. What is your
opinion? Thanks, AJ <Looks to me like a pretty classic case of
Treating Green Clown Goby for Ich? Env.
dis. misdiag. - 05/31/08 Hi folks! <Jennifer> Thanks for
all of the help you have given thus far! I had a question <No
longer?> that I can't seem to find a clear answer to yet but if
I've missed it I do apologize. I have a new reef system (24 gallon
Nano cube) that's been up and cycled for about a month now.
(Param.s have been stable since the cycle ended a month ago with 0
ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 5 nitrate, ph 8.2, SG 1.025.) I added
some fish about two weeks ago - a purple Firefish, a green clown goby
and last week added a hi fin banded goby and pistol shrimp pair. In
addition to them I have a Peppermint shrimp, a Fire shrimp, a pom pom
crab and a few corals (mushrooms and zoos). I hadn't quarantined
the fish as I usually would have due to them being from the goby family
and from seeing recommendations on the issue online so everyone's
in the display tank. Everything was going great until last night I
noticed a few white spots on my green clown goby (though he's been
active, eating great and even putting on a little bit weight). I
promptly moved him to a hospital tank (bare bottom with a heater,
filter with filter floss pulled from the display tank, small powerhead
and small cave) after giving him a 2 minute fresh water dip. I gave him
another freshwater dip again today. He's generally active and ate
some Cyclops today. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I'm
not really sure where the ich <Mmm, not Ich/Crypt... the other fish
would be infested...> came from since none of them had any symptoms
when I got them and neither of the other two fish are showing any
symptoms (active and eating like pigs). What can I do to help him out?
Should I pull out the Firefish and shrimp goby and treat them too?
<Mmm, no... I'd return the Gobiodon to the main system...
Something else is the cause of the spots... perhaps a generalized
poisoning from the Cnidarians...> I'm afraid of splitting up the
shrimp/goby pair since they've paired so well even though they were
bought separately. I have a pair of ocellaris clowns ready and waiting
in another tank but I'm afraid of them contracting the parasite too
so I definitely don't want to put them in yet. If I don't see
any signs of the Firefish and shrimp goby contracting the parasite and
leave the green clown goby in the hospital tank for 4 weeks, can I
assume that the parasites haven't been able to find a fish host and
thus their life cycle is broken? <Mmm, no... see WWM re marine fish
parasitology> I know that to leave a tank fallow it needs no fish in
it but if the other gobies don't get it then wouldn't the end
result be pretty much the same with the parasites being unable to find
a fishy host? <...> It seems to be a pretty mild infestation at
this point since the green clown didn't have it too badly and no
one else has it. I was already planning on getting a neon goby at some
point because I really love them, but would that help? <Mmm, no, not
likely> or getting a skunk cleaner shrimp? What can I do at this
point to help my clown goby and prepare the tank for my clownfish? Any
advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!! Jen <Read... again...
all would be similarly afflicted if this were a pathogenic problem. Bob