Ich emergency... ignorance, poor advice and the price of procrastination   11/15/06
Thank you for your time.  I have been reading for days on your site to find some definitive answers, however everything says set up a QT tank and go from there.
<Mmm... no... not everything... there are several pages of articles and FAQs files on actual treatment for Cryptocaryon infestations...>
  Hence lies my problem.
I have a VERY establish 240 gallon reef tank with many, many corals of various types with a few hundred pounds of live rock with all of your typical hermit crabs, snails, etc.
I can't catch most of the fish!!
<... if you intend to treat these fishes (and you very likely should), you should bite the proverbial bullet and drain, dismantle the tank...>
  I have two people hanging over the tanks with nets and basically we are doing nothing but destroying the corals trying to catch everything.
<See the above...>
I have been able to catch the powder brown tang, who shows the most signs of ich, he his actually completely covered.  However, most of the other fish, only have a few spots, if any that I can see.
<Appearances are not indicative...>
The local LFS told me to use Ich attack.
<Worthless... worse than worthless... folks actually believe this genre of phony medicant actually does some good>
  He said it won't cure the fish, but it will make the parasites fall off and then my UV sterilizer will kill most of the rest.
<... no>
I also have some cleaner shrimp that my purple tang utilizes everyday.  I have been adding garlic and vita-Kem to their food.
<Good>
Since I cant catch the fish, are the fish doomed, or is their something else I can do.
<You might be able to strike a sort of balance here... Again, covered over and over on WWM>
Some say lowering the salinity, then others say this will kill my corals and inverts.
<Too likely so>
Will adding cleaner, neon gobies, help. All of the fish are eating well, swimming well, just a few spots of ich on them.  The powder brown which was covered, is in the qt tank.  The LFS tells me to relax, it will not kill the fish, I just need to manage it.  However after reading your site, I'm not so sure.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Brian F
<... please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... for as long as it takes for you to realize your situation, options here. Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich...  - 11/11/06
Hi Guys
Hope everything is great there. Sorry to disturb you guys with a bad news again.
<No worries... well... some>
I am experiencing Marine Ich over and over again.
<Deja pooh!>
About 2 months ago I found out that there was marine ich in my tank so I took out my fish and left my invertebrates – a bubble tip anemone, urchin and 3 dancing shrimps. I kept them because I heard they are not vectors/hosts of this disease and its okay to keep them.
<Yes, this is so>
Then I ran my tank without fish for a month. Meanwhile I quarantined 2 newly bought Bannerfish and 2 newly bought purple firefish
<Mich says, "Why buy new fish, when you're having a parasite problem?">
for 1 ½ weeks.
<Ohh, not long enough>
After all that work my two banners are showing signs all over their bodies. Am I doing something wrong here?
<Mmm, a couple of obvious "things"... need another couple weeks for allowing the main system to run fallow/w/o fish hosts, the new fish at this time, too short quarantine>
Tomorrow I am removing my fish from the tank and keeping my invertebrates and I am hoping to run again for a month
<Make that six weeks>
without fish. Do you have any good tip or advices for my second attempt? Also I should mention that I use natural seawater but I keep it for a month before I put it my tank to replace 20% of water. Do you think this is a cause?
<No... highly unlikely>
Is it true that malachite green is safe to use with invertebrates to fight against ich.
<No, definitely not>
It is mentioned on http://www.pets-warehouse.com/marinefishdisease.htm under treatment for Ich – first article.
<Yeah... no. Toxic>
As mentioned above I have a small bubble tip anemone and 3 dancing shrimps. About a week ago one of my dancing shrimps went missing. Is it possible that my anemone ate it?
<Sure>
This particular anemone is small but can it consume a dancing shrimp?
<How do say "you betcha" in Hindi?>
Thanks in advance for any advices. Best regards,
Rachel
<You too my friend. Bob Fenner>

Powder Blue Tang, Ich   11/8/06
I have a 155 reef with 13 fish, and assorted corals and inverts, all levels great, but while out of town for 3 days (fish watched by LFS owner) my powder blue has a light (for the time being) case of ich.  I have not added anything for over a year, so my QT is gone.  My other fish seem unaffected,  the tang has had it for 4 days, I have been adding garlic to the food, but he  isn't getting better or worse. Will kick ich help the tang, or will it prevent only further spread.
< I cannot advise adding this to a tank with corals. While it may help the tang it may harm you inverts. Please research WWM for opinions on these "reef safe" products. >
And do I do freshwater dips, or would it be useless without a QT.  
< If you can catch the tang without inducing a lot of stress then it can help. >
He is still acting normal and eating great, but I want to do  whatever I can.
< This is one of those watch and see situations. I would suggest getting that QT up and running ASAP. If you can maintain optimal water conditions you may keep your fish healthy enough to fight off a minor outbreak, but prepare for trouble. Moving all fish to QT at the first sign of ich spreading may be your best bet. >
Thanks,
< You're welcome, and hope everything works out for you - Emerson >
Denise

Ich in main tank   11/8/06
Hi WetWebMedia Crew
  I think my main tank has been infected with ich even after quarantine of fish.
<Does occur...>
  If you think it is something else please advise.  Three out of four of my fish have ich I believe.  They are not scratching but have white spots all over them which look like definite ick.  If you think this is not ich How long should I wait to see if it is something else?
<A very good question... in that it challenges my meager intellect and capacity for response... Mmm, let's see: "Not too long?"... this is to state that if indeed this is or may be a real protozoan infestation... too long may be... too long to wait... But a variable guess/quanta, variables>
All fish are eating good.
<And well I take it>
Since 3 out of 4 of my fish are showing signs of ich can I just treat the main tank?  The fish are a Centropyge eibli, a Amphiprion ocellaris, a Pseudochromis fridmani, and a Gobiodon okinawae.   In this case what should I treat my tank with?
<Mmm, not... not the whole/main tank period... See WWM re...>
I have 4 crabs, and two turbo snails should I move those my quarantine tank which is 10 gallons while I treat the tank.  
  Thanks for your reply
<Will have to move, separate the fishes, non-fishes... again... Please read on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Ich issues   11/7/06
Hello, thank you for all of your informative postings.
< Greetings, we do all we can to help. Emerson with you today. >
I have a 125 gal tank with a wet/dry trickle filter, Coralife protein skimmer, 36W UV sterilizer, Fluval 405 canister filter, alternating powerheads,   80lbs of live sand and 80lbs of live rock, tank has been established  for just over 7 months.
< Given the tank description and fish listed below I would reckon you could remove the nitrate factory trickle filter as long as you have a good water change/cleaning regimen and skimmer. Make sure and clean out that canister filter often. >
In the tank I have a large volitans lion and I recently added a blue hippo tang after a 3 week quarantine (29gal) in copper, during quarantine the tang showed no spots at all.
< Did the tang show signs of ich before being placed in QT? If not then quarantining in copper would only stress the fish unduly. If there were signs of disease then a 3-4 week post treatment period in QT would be a good idea to make sure signs if disease did not come back. >
One week after being introduced into the main tank, the tang showed the first few grains of salt.  A few days later he was fully peppered.  I was not shocked about this as my research prior to getting this fish suggested that these fish are ich magnets.
After talking to a few people I decided to leave the tang in the tank, lower the salinity to .019 and supplement both fish with food soaked in garlic.  About 5 days later the lion then started to also show signs of ich (salt grains, swimming in current).  I am worried that the ich problem is getting out of control but I think if I tired to dig the tang out of the tank (lots of branched live rock) it would stress him worse than the parasites.  
< There are ways to catch you fish while keeping stress levels to a minimum. >
Both fish appear healthy, swimming normally, eating very well.  Will this condition clear up with my current strategies, < Not likely > or do I need to bite the bullet and try to dig the tang out of the tank?  Will the lion cure himself more easily as he can shed his skin?  
< Moving both fish to QT, treating them with appropriate measures and leaving the 125g fallow for 8 weeks is your best bet. Your 125 has a healthy colony of (most likely) ich that needs to be deprived of fish hosts. Please check out the Disease FAQs on WWM for specifics. >
Thanks, Dave
< Most welcome and best of luck. >

Help with QT tank   10/29/06
I have an outbreak of Ich in my 75 gallon tank. I have a 30 gallon tank I can use as a QT. Only 2 fish have spots, it is better if all are treated?<yes, you can find all this information on the website> Treatment being with formalin and Qt for 4-8 weeks? Leaving the main tank "fallow" 4-8 weeks to rid the parasite, will it "Ich" affect the inverts, LR, LS, and anemones? <ich does not affect inverts, also treat with a copper sulfate compound, formalin is generally not too effective with the treatment of ich and it is harmful to the livestock> For filtration you recommend a sponge filter, which I have ordered but has not been in my main filtration to seed. Can I use a HOT and put some of the ceramic rings in the charcoal chamber? And use the main tank water to fill the 30 gallon since the water will be treated anyway?<the water is not what holds the de-nitrifying bacteria that you need to break down waste> Any suggestions on how to keep the ammonia down?<water changes, and ammonia detox> Once treatment is done, do I have to drip the fish to move them back to the main tank? My livestock will benefit from your help and website. Thanks <spend a few hours reading about ich on the website...hundreds/thousands of people as the same questions as you and everything is answered in the FAQ's! good luck my friend, IanB>

Latent ich and fallow tanks  10/26/06
I have a 180g FOWLR tank, 75gallon sump (~1/3 full) and a 150g refugium and noticed that my porcupine puffer has contracted what appears to be ich.  I have quarantined him for about a month and the spots seemed to go away but as soon as I put him back in the main tank the spots reappear. None of the other fish (niger trigger, clown fish, lionfish, domino damsel, sergeant major, yellow tail damsels, yellow Chromis, snowflake eel) are showing any signs of the infestation.
< Been there, done that. You likely have a sustained colony of ich in your 180. The fish not displaying symptoms have probably built up enough immunity to do ok for the time being. >
I also have some turbo snails, hermit crabs, and a Condy anemone in my tank.  Is it possible that the infestation, if that is what it is, is lying dormant in my main tank until the puffer comes back or that there is another issue.  
<  The former and not the latter. >
I'm confused as I said due to the lack of infestation of any of my other fish.  Is it possible I will need to treat my main tank, if so what should I use and how should it be administered?
< With the inverts you listed the only option available for the 180 is to run it fallow for at least 6-8 weeks. Please research WWM for info on the “reef-safe” treatments you may be considering. >
Currently I've used malachite green in the quarantine tank on the puffer. Is there anything that I can put in my main system to treat everything that is safe or is there another approach you would recommend?
<  The best approach you could take would be to quarantine all fish and treat for ich while leaving the 180 fallow (fishless) for a 6-8 week period. You could also trade your puffer into your LFS, but then you still have ich in the 180 waiting for your other fish to be stressed by some unexpected event. Any treatment done to the 180 will likely stress or kill your inverts. It sounds like a royal pain, and I will admit it’s not fun. I had to quarantine all the fish in my 215g a couple of years ago do to a latent ich infestation that didn’t show itself until a heater stopped working. This really is the best way to minimize the ich population in the main tank and treat and strengthen your fish in quarantine. >
D'Wayne
< Best of luck from someone who has been in your situation and met with success – Emerson. >

Re: Latent ich and fallow tanks  - 10/25/06
Thanks for the info...a few more questions:
<< No problem, ask away! >>
- as far as quarantining them can I purchase a 50g or so Rubbermaid container and put them in that?
<< That would be great. Just make sure its a food safe container like the "Brute" Rubbermaid products. If you could separate the puffer from your other fish it would help as well.  >>
- should the water that goes in the quarantine tub be from my display tank or fresh or a combination?
<< You can fill it with display water the first time, but water changes should be done with freshly made water. >>
- will my skimmer need to be moved to service the quarantine tank?
<< Not with a good water change regimen, and skimmers are not recommended with certain medications. >>
- what kind of maintenance will be required on the quarantine tank in the interim (water changes etc?)
<< For the most part this will be determined by what kind of biofiltration you have for the QT and what medications you use. If you have a form of filtration you can add to the QT like a power or sponge filter, it would help a lot. If not you're going to need one and seed it with starter bacteria and check for ammonia often. You can probably find the starter bacteria at your LFS. Some medications recommend a water change regimen as well so follow their instructions. Other than these two guidelines you can do 25-50% changes once to a few times a week. When ever I am treating for disease in QT I err on the side of caution with 25% daily or 50% every other day. >>
- is minimum lighting sufficient for over the quarantine tank?
<< No lighting is needed. Ambient room lighting is sufficient for your fish. It would be a good idea to place some pvc pipes, elbows etc for your fish to hide in. >>
- I'm assuming circulation/lighting/temperature should remain the same in my main tank to sustain the inverts?
<< Correct. If you had no inverts you could crank the temp up a few degrees to hasten the life cycle of the ich, but best to leave it alone in your case. >>
Thanks again,
<< You're welcome and best of luck - Emerson >>
D'Wayne

Crypt  10/24/06
I'm about at my wits end with this problem.
<Can be extremely trying>
I've read almost everything on the web (including your web site) and in books about the disease and its treatment and have followed some of the described treatments (copper, hyposalinity, fallow tank, etc) but it keeps coming back.
<Not gone in the first place...>
Below I'll describe what I've done and maybe you can spot something I've missed.
<Okay>
I should note that I religiously check and keep my water parameters within guidelines and as stable as possible.
<And you're going to adopt strict quarantine practice>
I also do at least one water change a week.
Thanks in advance for your assistance
By way of background:
The first time I had Ich in my 120 gallon Reef tank was 4 months ago (hippo tang 1st, then a Purple tang, followed by a Foxface & a copper banded Butterfly.  On advise
<advice>
from my LFS, I tried a "Reef Safe" treatment
<There are no such remedies that are effective. Period>
which, after multiple tries, did nothing to cure or even alleviate the problem.
During this iterative process, I installed a UV system in hopes of further aiding in the treatment - no luck there either.
I then broke down the tank, removing all fish to my LFS & a hospital tank.
After reading everything published on the Web and in 4 or 5 books, I elected to put copper (.15)
<This concentration in ppm is on the lowest end of the range of efficacy>
in the hospital tank (the LFS's tank had copper as well)
<The majority of LFSs likely maintain some copper level in their fish holding systems>
and then left only corals, shrimp & crab in the 120 tank for 35 days.
Additionally, I did three 20 gallon water changes (more to get any residual of the "Reef Safe" medication out of the tank than any thought of removing any of the Ich parasites)
<No need>
After the 35 day fallow period, I began reintroducing fish into the tank at a controlled rate 3-5 a week (just from my hospital & the LFS tanks).
<.... no quarantine?...>
2-3 weeks into this process Ich symptoms began reappearing, first on a Heniochus, next a  Foxface, then a goby and then a flame angel and two Gudgeon.
At this point, my LFS Owner suggested that I "start over":  Get rid of my sand, rock & water (120 tank and sump).
<Poor advice... not necessary or useful in the least here>
  This I did, and again send several of the remaining fish to either my hospital tank or the LFS.
I then bought new sand & rock and restarted my tank from scratch.  I put back the coral, shrimp, crab & anemone and left it fallow for 2 plus weeks.
During that 2 week period, all of the fish at the LFS were in copper
<I wouldn't "bet" on this...>
and were looking pretty good as were the fish in hypo-salinity (1.018) in my hospital tank.  For the last 7-8 days in my hospital tank I put in copper (.15).
Current Scenario:
After that period (3 weeks+/-) I reintroduced the 7 fish from my hospital tank back into the restarted 120 gallon reef tank and left them for 7 days.
Nobody showed any signs of Ich up to that point.
Next I put a velvet wrasse and an Eiblii Angel from the LFS's copper tank in my Hospital tank (now a quarantine tank with no copper and normal salinity)
<Yay!>
and left them there for 4 days (4 days because they'd been in copper at the LFS for 10 days +/- prior to being moved to my tank).  After I moved them to the large tank at the end of the 4 days, I added no fish for 5 or 6 days I then added 4 tangs
<What species? A 120 gallon volume isn't enough for a mix of most>
(mine) from the LFS's copper tank back into my 120 gallon tank.  Two of the tangs (Purple and Chevron) had been in the LFS copper tank ever since the end of the first break-out (2+ months), the mimic had been in the LFS for 3 weeks in another tank with copper in it and the sailfin had been in the LFS, in copper, for 2 + weeks.  That was twelve days ago.
Two days ago I noted 4 Ich spots on my Purple Tang and yesterday that was up to about 20 and there were 6 on my Foxface.
The only suggestions, other than posting this plea was to make sure that I soak the fish's food in Garlic
<Not generally efficacious...>
(which I have always done - since day one of my having fish) and add Coral Vital
<Worthless>
(1 capful per 10 gallons) every day.
Can anyone offer any advice on additional step I might take (other than give up on the hobby).
Your thoughts and feedback will be greatly appreciated
Regards
Teri
<Am out of the country on a very poor connection, but strongly encourage you to (re)peruse all the Articles and as much of the FAQs files on Cryptocaryon archived on WWM (see the indices, search tool)... I would NOT "trust" anyone but yourself to quarantine and treat your livestock... I WOULD have a higher titer of free cupric ion present at all times during treatment... as much as 0.35 ppm. Bob Fenner>

Medicated Food 10/23/06
Hi,
<Hi>
Do you have any experience with medicated food for prevention of ich on fish? <Of limited usefulness.>  In particular, Blue lagoon Premium Medicated food.  From the collective knowledge out there, I should put my fish in the QT, treat them, wait 6 weeks and then return to the main tank. <Yep> Would medicated food be able to eradicate ich by preventing ich from attaching to fish and thereby the ich dying off over a 6 week period as they the ich do not have a chance to complete their life-cycle? <Not really how it works, the Ich would have to attach to be effected by the medication within the fish.>  I am leaning toward the QT, but will need to buy a larger QT as the 10g will not hold 8 fish (two tangs, etc.) for the six week period.
<Best way to go.>
Thanks.
NR
<Chris>

Ich problem?  - 10/22/06
Hi crew,
< Greetings, Emerson with you today. >
I've obtained a lot of useful info on your site about marine ich and I would like to thank you guys. I understand that every ich problem might be different so I would like to run mine by you.
I have a 55 gallon fish only tank with two juveniles. 3" emperor angel and 2.5" clown trigger.
< Yipes! I hope you're saving up for the 300 gallon tank the fish will need. >
It started 2 month ago. A cluster of white spots appeared on the dorsal fins of the trigger. So I perform a water change and hook up a UV sterilizer does it actually work against ich?) För 2 month I did the weekly 10% water change without any additional medications, the white spots didn't go away. As for the angel, from time to time, I do see white spots on it's body in the morning and they are usually gone by mid afternoon. but I see the angel scratching itself. Both fish eats aggressively. This morning, I found the trigger looking a lot worse with some white clusters and mucus on it's body and eyes. It is still eating aggressively though. My question is if I should apply treatments or the fish with fight off the ich with the help of the UV?
< All the fish in this system need to be treated in quarantine if possible. UV will not cure your fish for certain. The 55 needs to remain fallow for at least 6-8 weeks before reintroduction of the cured fish. Method of treatment should be determined after researching what is safest for your fish. >
Thanks again for your help.
< Very welcome, and best of luck. >
Kwon

Green Chromis = Typhoid Mary 10/17/06
Dear WWM crew,
<Hi>
I have finally come to the realization that my 90 gallon reef tank is infected with Ick (yes, due to lack of quarantine). <Lesson learned.>  The only fish I have right now is a green Chromis that never showed obvious signs of Ick. <Still infected.>  I am in the process of treating him with Cupramine for 7 days in a 10 gallon hospital tank.  <Good>  After this period I was thinking of placing this fish in my 29 gallon quarantine tank. <Ok>  In time I plan on stocking my display tank with a Yellow Tang and a Flame Angel.  I thought I could add one fish at a time (1 month each) to the quarantine tank with the Chromis still in it. <Wouldn't, adds too many variables and risks the health of both fish.>  My line of reasoning is:
1)  To keep the quarantine tank cycled with the Chromis.
<Better to do with filter media moved from a healthy main tank to the QT when needed.>
2)  To use the Chromis as a dither fish. <Will not be helpful.>
3)  To help me determine if I was able to cure the Chromis of Ick.
<Don't move it for 4 to 6 weeks after the copper treatment, if it does not show signs of ich by then it should be clean.>
After the last fish is added the could the Chromis go back in the display tank?  Or is it too risky to add 'Typhoid Mary' back into the display tank?
<Not risky adding it back, but not a good idea to expose it to other unquarantined fish.>
Thanks,
Mark
<Chris>

Crypt - 10/22/2006
I'm about at my wits end with this problem.
<Can be extremely trying>
I've read almost everything on the web (including your web site) and in books about the disease and its treatment and have followed some of the described treatments (copper, hyposalinity, fallow tank, etc) but it keeps coming back.
<Not gone in the first place...>
Below I'll describe what I've done and maybe you can spot something I've missed.
<Okay>
I should note that I religiously check and keep my water parameters within guidelines and as stable as possible.
<And you're going to adopt strict quarantine practice>
I also do at least one water change a week. Thanks in advance for your assistance By way of background: The first time I had Ich in my 120 gallon Reef tank was 4 months ago (hippo tang 1st, then a Purple tang, followed by a Foxface & a copper banded Butterfly.  On advise
<advice>
from my LFS, I tried a "Reef Safe" treatment
<There are no such remedies that are effective. Period>
which, after multiple tries, did nothing to cure or even alleviate the problem. During this iterative process, I installed a UV system in hopes of further aiding in the treatment - no luck there either. I then broke down the tank, removing all fish to my LFS & a hospital tank. After reading everything published on the Web and in 4 or 5 books, I elected to put copper (.15)
<This concentration in ppm is on the lowest end of the range of efficacy>
in the hospital tank (the LFS's tank had copper as well)
<The majority of LFSs likely maintain some copper level in their fish holding systems>
and then left only corals, shrimp & crab in the 120 tank for 35 days. Additionally, I did three 20 gallon water changes (more to get any residual of the "Reef Safe" medication out of the tank than any thought of removing any of the Ich parasites)
<No need>
After the 35 day fallow period, I began reintroducing fish into the tank at a controlled rate 3-5 a week (just from my hospital & the LFS tanks).
<.... no quarantine?...>
2-3 weeks into this process Ich symptoms began reappearing, first on a Heniochus, next a  Foxface, then a goby and then a flame angel and two Gudgeon. At this point, my LFS Owner suggested that I "start over":  Get rid of my sand, rock & water (120 tank and sump).
<Poor advice... not necessary or useful in the least here>
  This I did, and again send several of the remaining fish to either my hospital tank or the LFS. I then bought new sand & rock and restarted my tank from scratch.  I put back the coral, shrimp, crab & anemone and left it fallow for 2 plus weeks. During that 2 week period, all of the fish at the LFS were in copper
<I wouldn't "bet" on this...>
and were looking pretty good as were the fish in hypo-salinity (1.018) in my hospital tank.  For the last 7-8 days in my hospital tank I put in copper (.15). Current Scenario: After that period (3 weeks+/-) I reintroduced the 7 fish from my hospital tank back into the restarted 120 gallon reef tank and left them for 7 days. Nobody showed any signs of Ich up to that point. Next I put a velvet wrasse and an Eibli Angel from the LFS's copper tank in my Hospital tank (now a quarantine tank with no copper and normal salinity)
<Yay!>
and left them there for 4 days (4 days because they'd been in copper at the LFS for 10 days +/- prior to being moved to my tank).  After I moved them to the large tank at the end of the 4 days, I added no fish for 5 or 6 days I then added 4 tangs
<What species? A 120 gallon volume isn't enough for a mix of most>
(mine) from the LFS's copper tank back into my 120 gallon tank.  Two of the tangs (Purple and Chevron) had been in the LFS
copper tank ever since the end of the first break-out (2+ months), the mimic had been in the LFS for 3 weeks in another tank with copper in it and the sailfin had been in the LFS, in copper, for 2 + weeks.  That was twelve days ago. Two days ago I noted 4 Ich spots on my Purple Tang and yesterday that was up to about 20 and there were 6 on my Foxface. The only suggestions, other than posting this plea was to make sure that I soak the fish's food in Garlic
<Not generally efficacious...>
(which I have always done - since day one of my having fish) and add Coral Vital
<Worthless>
(1 capful per 10 gallons) every day. Can anyone offer any advice on additional step I might take (other than give up on the hobby).
Your thoughts and feedback will be greatly appreciated.  Regards, Teri
<Am out of the country on a very poor connection, but strongly encourage you to (re)peruse all the Articles and as much of the FAQs files on Cryptocaryon archived on WWM (see the indices, search tool)... I would NOT "trust" anyone but yourself to quarantine and treat your livestock... I WOULD have a higher titer of free cupric ion present at all times during treatment... as much as 0.35 ppm. Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich 10/10/06
Hi crew I was hoping you might be able to help me out. I have a 7ft by 2ft by 2ft reef tank set up. Everything was going great test my water weekly everything spot on. My problem is my first encounter with white spot. <QTing?> My inhabitants are 2 hippo tangs, yellow tang, powder blue tang, lipstick tang, orange shoulder tang, 2 pink spot  gobies, flame angel, banana wrasse, a hammer coral and an elegance coral. <That seems like a lot of fish.> Should I remove the two corals to a separate tank and treat  all the fish in the main tank which wouldn't be hard or do I have to remove all the fish to another tank and treat them there which would  be a nightmare, because I would have to take out all the live rock to catch the fish and then I would have a lot of fish that exist quite happily together in the large aquarium all trying to exist in a smaller tank and I also don't know what to do with the gobies if I were to put them in a tank with out sand. If I am able to treat the fish in the main tank would you also be able to recommend a product to treat the fish with. Sorry for such a long email thanks in advance.
<All fish need to be removed to a bare hospital tank.  Not sand or live rock, which will absorb any medication you use.  If you treat the main tank with an effective medication (copper) you can kiss you LR goodbye and will probably never be able to add any corals or invertebrates in the future.  Please read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm for more.>
<Chris>

Re: Marine Ich 10/15/06
Hi thanks for your reply. <Sure> I have now moved all fish to a hospital tank and treated with Cupramine. All the fish seem fine except the two pink spot gobies. One in particular was very distressed swimming very close to the surface like he was gasping for air. I did some further research on your web site and read that gobies basically don’t like copper. I wish you'd mentioned this in the first email.  <Wish you would have read more before treating.>  
Anyway I have now moved the gobies into a second hospital tank but am now unsure as to how to treat them for itch. I cannot see any cysts on the gobies like the other fish had but they were flicking themselves on the rocks and sand when they were in the main tank so I presume they are infected. Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks
<Several options are available.  Details are all available on WetWebMedia.>
<Chris>

Treating a Powder Brown Tang (A. nigricans) with Crypt.   9/27/06
Hello Crew,
<Mark>
First let me tell you what a great service your website is to those of us who love the hobby.  It is simply the most accurate source of information I've found.  It has really helped me make better decisions at the LFS, separating truth from fiction.
<Ah, good>
I'm treating a powder brown (A. nigricans) for crypt that was in a 120 gal reef tank.  The tank is located at a business and is "taken care of" by a local service.  I have salt tanks at home and have seen/treated crypt before but never on such a delicate species as a powder brown.  I was the first to notice the fish had a slight case and suggested to the service that they remove all the fish and treat in a separate tank.
They obviously didn't QT the tang before they brought it to us.  We'll they didn't listen and went to dipping and then to Kick Ich and......you know the rest.
<Oh yes>
Yes they put Kick-Ich in the main tank, soft corals, inverts, and all.  I have nothing good to say about Kick-Ich.  I fell pray to it a long time ago.  It's worthless.
<We are in agreement. Perhaps worse than worthless... as folks actually believe they're doing something of use>
I do not have experience with this species.  I've now educated myself about the powder brown on your site and realize I may not win this battle, but I have to try.  I brought my 10 gal H.T. in from home and set it up in my office.  I removed a small power filter I run on my 55 at home just for this purpose.  The fish had a fairly severe case when the "fish service" finally cried uncle and let me try 3 weeks later.
I'm at day 5 of a 14 day copper treatment (Mardel, Copper Safe) and the fish is doing very well now.  I've got it eating dried seaweed, it won't take dried foods and I haven't tried frozen yet.
<Very likely it won't feed till the copper treatment ceases>
Spots are gone, I'm doing daily 4 gal water changes using water from my 55 gal at home in attempt to seed the tank.  Copper is probably killing bacteria as quickly as I put it in.
<Likely so>
I am fighting ammonia; it's at a steady 0.5 ppm as long as I continue water changes, which was predictable. Nitrite is 0, which may change next week.  Salinity is at 1.023. that's where I keep my tanks. I am testing for Copper and levels are where they're supposed to be.
Here are my questions:
Assuming I can keep this delicate fish alive through the copper treatment, should I return the fish to the main display after two weeks or try to get the 10 gal to cycle and keep the tang out of the "infested tank" for a full 30 days?
<The latter... the main tank has been left sans fish hosts? Or "nuked" as in bleached?>
  I say "infested" because none of the other fish are showing signs of crypt.
<It's there>
I understand there is a potential for the fish to become infested again
<Almost a surety>
I just don't know if the extra time out of the tank really means anything since we didn't let the system go fallow.
<A mistake>
I'm conflicted between stressing the fish by keeping it in the 10 gal longer than required and potentially re-infesting it in the main tank.  How much stress am I putting the tang through keeping it in such a small tank?
<A bunch>
I realize they like large spaces!  Do you see any thing wrong with my treatment method?
Thanks for a wonderful site!   
Mark Gustin
<Mmm, nothing per se... but the "whole picture" is incomplete w/o the "treatment" of the main display... Bob Fenner>

Re: Treating a Powder Brown Tang (A. nigricans) with Crypt.  9/27/06
Bob,
<Mark...>
Thanks for your response.  I know it's a mistake to not let the main system go fallow.  I couldn't get them (the "service") to pull all the fish from the display.  They won't listen to me.  They're the experts you see!  Since I'm not the owner of the tank I couldn't force the issue although I tried.  I thought it would be better to try to get the tang healthy again than to just let it die, which was inevitable. I had to try something.
<Mmm, Mark... you're on the edge of raising my blood pressure dangerously... I salute your efforts/intervention in trying to cure this fish, re/solve the overall situation, but don't give a damn re who "owns" the rights to do/not do whatever here. SomeONE must come forward and seize responsibility... I call on you to be that person, really. Am only interested in facts, not who did or did not do what here, anywhere... Show the "service company" our site... I worked in this aspect of the trade for nineteen years... >
I don't have a big enough H.T. (only 10 gal) to house all of the fish in the 120 gal display or I would have.  I normally use my 10 gal only as a quarantine tank.
<Who owns this livestock? It will be lost, the tank remain infested if no action is taken. You understand this... make them understand it as well>
I really have no choice but to put the tang back in the display (it's not my fish) and cross my fingers it doesn't get re-infested.
<...>
Frustrating!  I know the odds are not in favor of this.  Knowing that the main system will always have some level of the parasite in it, will keeping the tang out of the main system for the full 30 days decrease the chance of re-infestation?
<Very marginally>
  This assumes none of the other fish becomes infested in the next 25 days!
<They are my friend... just "sub-clinically">
One thing that the "expert" brought up was that the soft corals will help reduce the numbers of the parasite.
<... no>
Is this true to any extent?  Nothing else this guy says has been correct so I'm not holding my breath!
Maybe I'll gain a little credibility with the "service" and they'll at least entertain the concept of quarantine.
<Did this myself for many years... only route to go is to provide as clean livestock as you can...>
These guys make pretty good money for stocking and maintaining tanks.  I'd think that they would take as many precautions as possible to keep parasites from entering systems they're responsible for.  I'm dreaming... I know
Thanks again.
Mark Gustin
<Please put them in contact with me. Bob Fenner>

Re: Treating a Powder Brown Tang (A. nigricans) with Crypt.  9/27/06
Bob,
<Mark>
I'll do my best.  I've already forwarded your responses.  Don't hold your breath.
<Sometimes...>
I get upset at ignorance too!  The problem here is we have someone who loves the fish tank but isn't interested in learning about the creatures in it.  I have to be careful here.  His secretary feeds them!  He can afford to have it...likes it...and can afford to pay someone to set it up and care for it.
<Is this then the/an end-all rationale in the West?>
When fish get sick it just becomes a decision of economics.  If it costs more to treat it than to kill it and replace it...guess what the decision is?  That's the attitude of the tank owner...not the service.  It boils down to money because there's no respect for the creatures themselves.  This tang would have ended up in the garbage can if I hadn't pulled it out!
<My friend... there are many "things" contained w/in a relationship that make it "work"... concurrent goals, projects, paths... BUT most importantly values... I call on you... to testify, witness on your own behalf whether you can... in good faith... "work" with this outfit, person>
I'd just take it home if I had a large enough tank to keep it.  Unfortunately...I don't.  I could house it for a short time in a 29 I have but my 55 is fully stocked and would not support the addition of this aggressive fish.
We'll figure something out!
Mark Gustin
<Yes... we both will indeed. BobF>

Re: Treating a Powder Brown Tang (A. nigricans) with Crypt.  9/27/06
I understand.... no this is not the prevailing rational in the west... just with some individuals.  You have to pick your battles and there isn't anything that I'm going to say that's going to change him.
<Just be yourself>
I don't/won't work for him or with him...just in the same building.
Since I love the tank I occasionally stop by to see it...and dream of someday having one like it.  The Friday before Labor Day I noticed the Ich and e-mailed the owner a proper course of action...and you know the rest.
<Ahhh>
I may have some luck with the guy who services the tank.  He is a fellow diver and obviously respects the creatures.  He may never admit I was right but may react differently in the future just for me having said something to him.  I don't think he's a bad guy... just misinformed about dealing with Ich, and since he's in a business relationship with the other... I've put him in an awkward position.  I think he truly believes I'm going to fail at this.  I may....but for now the fish is doing remarkably well.  I had to teach it how to eat the dried seaweed by sticking it to the filter intake.  It was picking at the tube like they do so I stuck a piece on it the tang is now eating seaweed from a clip.
If he makes it thru the copper treatment I may take him home and put him in my 29 temporarily.  It beats trying to make this small tank cycle and wasting all the salt changing water everyday.
One last question and I'll get out you're hair...you've got better things to do I'm sure.
If I do convince them to pull the other fish out...should they be treated with copper even though they show no symptoms?
<Yes>
  You say they are infested "sub-clinically".  To treat or not is the question?
<Treat>
It seems that I've read in the FAQ's that it would be ok to put them in quarantine and observe while the display is left fallow for 30 days.  If they then develop symptoms while in QT then treat.
<May not exhibit symptoms, will be carriers...>
Mark Gustin
<Life to you my friend. BobF>

Re: Treating a Powder Brown Tang (A. nigricans) with Crypt.  9/27/06
Good news!
<Always welcome>
The tank owner has informed the service that he wants the fish pulled and treated...will be meeting them tomorrow to discuss the situation.
<Ah, good>
Looks like we did it...all is going to work out!
Thanks Bob!
Mark Gustin
<Thank you Mark. BobF>

I have a huge Ich Problem, Scam remedies (Kick nothing), a lesson in knowing what one is doing, and realizing when not  9/15/06
Hello and greeting,
<And to you>
I was reading over your wonderful site and read all the valuable information re: ich.
<A bunch!>
Well this is my story, before I went on vacation for 8 days my tank was doing great, my setup includes a 125 gallon reef tank with live rock, live sand a 30 gallon sump, 1 regal angel, 1 achilles,
<Both not easily kept>
1 hippo, 2 percula clowns, 4 Chromis and 2 shrimps and before I left everyone was doing fine, I have automatic top off and consistent calcium and alkalinity supplements.  I had someone feed my tank while I was gone and their food was placed in cups so all they had to do was poor in the contents of the cups and just let it be.
<Good technique>
  Well when I returned I noticed a huge ich outbreak on achilles to the point where his eyes were covered and could not see where and what he was swimming into, my angel was covered as well as my hippo, but no where as bad as the achilles.
<Not unusual course here>
As anyone would I panicked, and ran to my local fish store to see what could be done, the employee recommended  to me kick ich
<... worse than worthless. Actually leads one to believe they're doing good...>
and since it was reef safe I figured what the heck, so I used it but to no avail.
<Bingo...>
Well needless to say he passed, then my angel was not doing so good so I did the next best thing which in my opinion I had no choice, was to buy a quarantine tank which I should have did since the inception
<Double bingo>
of my 125 but was stubborn to and would never make that mistake again, but doing so means that my emergency tank would not be established enough even with my current tank water, some sand from it and a piece of live rock,
<... not able to be used with medications of use here>
but it was worth a shot.  So I set it up put the angel in there with copper treatment.  He immediately responded to it started swimming around and the ich seemed to be gone that day which was a Sunday afternoon.
<Seemed only...>
  When I returned later that night he was on his side again breathing very heavily,
<Yep... next cycle...>
I immediately changed some of the water out of my qt and replaced it with my 125 gallon water with half of the copper treatment, and this time there was no response.  Well needless to say he tried his best to tough it out up until Monday afternoon he was still breathing but he was still laying on his side, and he passed later that afternoon.  Now in my DT it is really hard to catch my hippo as he wedges himself in the rocks in my reef and the only way to take him out is remove all rocks and corals which would be extremely difficult, my question is to you what should I do?
<Read where you've stated you had...>
I ordered a UV and I should receive it by Friday
<Won't cure... or stop the loss of your livestock here...>
of this week, and my hippo isn't looking so hot, his skin looks like its shedding but his appetite is still the same and his swimming habits are too.  I also ordered two neon gobies hoping that would help.  I heard about hypo treatment but is that my last resort??
Please help
Thank you
<... Simple... you need to take the main tank down to capture all fishes, treat them in a chemically inert (as close to it... seawater itself reacts with copper...), and treat... Please do read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: I have a huge Ich Problem... and resistance to reading?  9/15/06
Thank you so much for the reply.  I have a couple questions though before I go ahead and put all the fish in my qt.  Being that the qt is only a week old how will I cycle it so that the fish will be ok in it?
<... answered over and over on WWM>
Also its a 10 gallon tank, will they be stressed being in such a small area especially the hippo?  Thank you once again!
<... read, don't write... and soon. BobF>
 

Re: Personifer Angel/Please Help... mixed Angels, Crypt likely  - 09/14/06
Thank You very much just one more question please if you will I have a bunch of white little spots or dots (like) but they seem to move every now and then.
<?>
they are on the corner of the glass, my heart tells me that its a parasite but my fish all seem fine.
<Not likely a parasite...>
  Please tell me what you think this is?
<... Learn to/use the search tool... keep reading. Bob Fenner>
I have just been having a little trouble...Thanks for your time.
<No worries... but unless these small moving spots are parasitic isopods, copepods... (highly unlikely), they are not visible protozoans... Put another way, I would not be concerned here. Cheers, BobF>

fish <and English> problems  - 09/13/06
hey-  Bob
big fan of site cant express how much help it has given. I've been in the hobby 3 years or so. Now I have 120 reef. My fish seemingly are always getting ich. There are 2 fish who always seem to get it and the others don't seem to. The 2 that get it are powder brown tang, and blue hippo. I know tangs get it easy but what am I doing wrong. no fish have been added and I haven't lost any. But they always seem to have a few spots here or there. Now the powder brown has is really bad but - doesn't act any different, eats fine and doesn't flash or anything. So I'm baffled. It starts out really mild one or two spots and then something happens like I have to clean the tank the he gets a little stressed and gets a few more for a few days. Then after that goes back to only a few. I just got back from vacation and now he has it very bad. but no change in the way the fish acts. I know I need to take them all to sick tank but what do I do to keep from getting it again. Water quality is fine, temp changes very little maybe 1 degree a day. I've taken them to sick tanks 2 other times once for 4 weeks and the other for 6 weeks. I guess what gets me confused is that a few fish will get ich and the others are untouched and fine. I just don't know what I'm doing wrong.
fish in tank
Powder brown
purple
Kole
hippo tangs
royal Gramma
4 green Chromis
flame angel
tiger goby
<<Blake:  The best treatment for ich is to slowly lower the SG in your QT to 1.009 (as measured with a refractometer), leave it there for 6 weeks, and then slowly raise it to your main tank SG.  Unfortunately, for you, ich needs a host fish to survive the 6 week period.  Thus, if you leave any fish in your main tank, you will never break the ich cycle. If you don't have any live rock or inverts in your main tank (because the SG 1.009 is too low for them), you could do the treatment in the main tank.  If you do, you could pull them out of the main tank, and maintain them in a separate tank while you treat the main tank.  I usually don't like to move the SG more than .002 per day up or down (as measured with a refractometer).  After the 6 weeks, no ich will have survived in your tank.  You then slowly raise the QT from SG 1.009 to where your main tank is.   While the whole process takes several weeks, you will beat ich for good.  In the future, never introduce a fish without going through the 6 week QT. It's the way I do it and I have never had ich in the main tank (though I have had it seen it many times at the start of the QT process). Best of luck, Roy>>

ICH treatment, QT duration question   9/4/06
Hi crew,
Happy Labor Day!
<Thanks, to you as well>
I'm writing to ask an ICH treatment/QT duration question and a Blenny question.  I purchased a Royal Gramma on August 13. He was doing well in my bare QT tank until August 24 when I noticed he would not eat that day and there were white spots on his fins. Despite the fact that I dipped him in Meth Blue before the QT tank he apparently came down with ICH. Determined to not lose this fish (as I've had a bad streak lately) I immediately started treating him with SeaTest Copper and followed the manufacturers directions which was to treat for 10 - 14 days, testing daily to ensure proper copper levels. The white spots were gone after 1 day on the fish and he started eating the very next day and has been eating daily since. His 14  day treatment period ends on Sept 6. My question is, how many additional days/weeks should I keep the fish in the QT tank to be certain the disease does not come back before I move him to my display tank?
<4 to 6 weeks from the end of the treatment.>
I am patient and want to be as sure as I can be that he's "cured" before I move him to the show tank. He's been in the QT a total of 23 days now but was treated for ICH starting on August 24.
Also, I wanted to buy a Lawnmower Blenny. I typically QT my new arrivals a solid 30 days before moving to my main tank but since this particular fish would be happier in my main tank which has lots of green algae he would eat, what would be a good length of time to QT this fish before moving him to the main tank.
<I prefer 6 weeks for most fish but a minimum of 4 should be fine.> I would be feeding him some sheet algae (Ocean Nutrition Algae) on a clip until the QT period ends.
Thanks for your help!
Your most welcome, Leslie>