Time For Action! (Attacking Ich)
HI, Lynn here again.
<Hi Lynn- Scott F. here today>
I have a 125 gallon marine tank with a large variety of specimens. I have been reading this web site and many others for months now. I'm quite new to this hobby (about 1 year). So far, I have had ample luck with my tank. Unfortunately,  1 loss to me is 1 to many.
<Agreed!>
I wrote recently about my ill Foxface Lo I had purchased in an attempt to save  ( he passed away this evening), but he did give it a good fight. Well, here I am again with another possible problem. Unfortunately, it's possibly ich. Treating Ich is hard enough in even a qt tank. My tank houses 1 Stars and Stripes Dog Face Puffer ,1 Majestic Foxface ,1 Lionfish,1 Silver Scat, 1 Snowflake Eel, 1 Engineer Goby, 3 damsels, Turbo snails, hermit crabs, about 50 lbs of live rock (rough guess), a few live plants, Serpent Starfish( 1 adult and uncounted amounts of baby stars which came in  new live rock) which I started to keep in qt tank but had to place in main tank after a few hrs of quarantine due to medicating Foxface Lo ( in fear the spectrogram would kill off the baby starfish). As of now I only have a 10 gal quarantine tank.
<Hey- it's better than no quarantine tank. Keep in mind, however, that a quarantine tank is not a permanent feature, and should be broken down when you're done using it.>
My new tank won't be ready for delivery for at least one month- 125 gal.. I had my puffer in qt tank about a month ago when he stopped eating. He had a case of "cloudy eye". I keep close watch on my water quality levels. I check no less than 2 times per week all have been good- ammonia has never topped over 0.25, nitrates at .0  nitrites .0. Bi-weekly water changes ( 25 %), top-offs every week salinity 1.020- 1.023, ph 8.2 temp 80-82 F. Because of the venomous nature of some of my fish, I feel a dip would be out of the question. I have noticed the slimy bubbles (like grains of salt ) bringing me to conclusion of ich, as your FAQ has stated ( in text and photos) on at least my Foxface and my Puffer.
<Do consider treating these fishes with Formalin, as opposed to copper...Puffers don't do well with copper at all, in many cases>
The rest of the fish are a lot harder to tell but I fear chances of the rest having it are highly probable. It's impossible to fit all these fish into a 10 gal tank, or even the non fish into it + live rock which  are harboring baby stars an other livestock.
<Rubbermaid containers or large trash cans make great emergency treatment facilities...>
I feel I should treat as soon as possible, before it affects there health.
<Sounds like it already has!>
I have read all the articles you have posted throughout your website and other sites. How can this be done without absolute  casualties? Or unnecessary stress to my tank?
<Do read up on the "two front" ich treatment technique that I have exposed on WWM, as well as the many other parasitic disease treatment FAQs and articles on WWM. Lots of good information here!>
P.S.-The symptoms of ich have been present for at least 1 month. It has taken me this long to identify it (through articles and photos) So I know the new rocks and plants were not the cause, they were introduced this past weekend.
<Well, they could lead to potential future problems. I'm a very conservative type, who quarantines EVERYTHING that goes into my tanks...Really a practice worth subscribing to. Keep a good attitude, take prompt action, and hang in there. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Counter-Attacking Parasites
I am a new to the saltwater world.
<Welcome! Scott F. with you today!>
I have a 70 gallon tank which was cycled with 80lbs of live sand, 15 lbs of live rock and 8 damsels.
<In the future, you may want to consider methods for cycling the tank without damsels...better for everyone-especially the damsels!>
About 2 weeks after confirming the nitrite/nitrate levels were holding at 0, I traded in the damsels for a few new fish. I got a clown, a hippo tang, and a golden-headed goby. All are doing well, but one. I'm sure you can guess it's the tang.
<That was my guess...Another suggestion: Always, always, always quarantine new fishes before placing them in the display tank...Most disease problems can be eradicated before they reach the display tank through this process>
He hasn't eaten for four days (the whole time I've had him).  Physically he looks ok, but his behavior is strange, he stays hidden all the time and rubs on rocks like he's scratching.
<Hmm...could be something parasitic>
I've tried normal marine flake food and Nori (dried sheets of seaweed). The tank is kept 1t 78-79F and salinity of 1.0225.  I use two 300 GPM powerheads and a over the back bio-wheel Penguin 400. Please advise as to how I should treat the tang. From what I've read it sounds like it could be "ich", but I've read many differing opinions on best method for treatment, please confirm what you feel the problem to be and advise accordingly.
<Well, it's hard to be 100% certain without actually seeing the fish, but I will hazard a guess that it may be ich, or possibly another parasitic malady. Do check on the WWM site for more about this illness and how to identify it. Always be sure to confirm what you're dealing with before embarking on any treatment course. Assuming it is ich, you'd be well advised to remove all of the fish from the display tank (even the ones that aren't showing symptoms) and observe them carefully in a separate treatment tank. If necessary, you can utilize a few possible treatment courses, such as freshwater dips, 100% daily water changes and siphonings in the bare treatment tank, or use of chemical preparations, such as copper sulphate or formalin-based products. Meanwhile, the display tank should remain "fallow", without fishes, for about a month. This will result in a seriously decimated parasite population for lack of hosts. Conduct regular tank maintenance during this period (water changes, etc.), and when it's time to repatriate your fishes, they'll face a lot less in the way of challenges to their future health. You can read all about the many options available to you on the WWM site>
Your quick response is much appreciated. Thanks a ton !!
<My pleasure! Regards, Scott F>

Ich vs. Strong Fish - 08/20/03
Dear piscatorial crew:
<Hi BC, I'm more of a stomatopodial myself>
I have a Centropyge loricula which has contracted Ich. Will move him to my NEW 5G QT and treat with CopperSafe.
<I'd recommend a 10g QT instead, more volume is better.>
My other livestock include the following in my 46G FO system:
1. Chrysiptera hemicyanea, cyanea
2. Canthigaster solandri
3. Rhinecanthus aculeatus
4. Cirrhittichthys aprinus
5. Sphaeramia nematoptera
All are doing well with no signs of the ciliate.  Question is: Can strong/healthy fish overcome Ich naturally? My logic is that if the fish/livestock are hale, then these tomites will not be able to attach themselves to a host and eventually perish. And I ask this question because I will eventually replace the pygmy angel and hope that in 2 weeks time, the ich would have been eradicated. Please note that I've added Malachite Green/Formalin to the main tank too.  
Please advice and thanks in advance.  Best,  BC
<Well first off BC, you've got several aggressive fishes in there, and I'm afraid when your Rhinecanthus aculeatus gets bigger, he'll have everyone else as a snack. I'd advise splitting out some of the fish to different systems. Also, I would never recommend treating a tank with medications, you may well have contaminated it permanently. That said, healthy fish can fight off infections. Some believe that if ich is in a tank, it's always there.
Here's some stuff to read up on:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bestcryptfaqs.htm
Good luck with your tank, PF>

Ich in Reef  - 2/12/03
I am losing fish due to ich in my reef tank.  I cannot catch the fish to remove them.
<They can be caught easily by several methods mentioned in the wetwebmedia.com archives. My favorite is a morning catch. Have a fast pump and a clean garbage can(s) ready... simply drain the tank to mere inches, scoop the fish gently and then refill the tank in minutes. Your sump pump will easily do this. The coral can stay out of water for much longer than the ten minutes or so it takes to drain and refill the aquarium. These fish need a bare bottomed QT to break the larval cycle of the parasite and the display needs to run fallow>
I was told about a product "Kick Ich" that is reef safe.  Do you have any ideas/suggestions.
<Yep... don't waste your money on it. You have my assurance that it will not work at this point. QT these and all new fish, coral, rocks, algae etc in the future>
Thanks, Howard
<kindly, Anthony>

Plowing Through Parasites...
Dear WWM Crew,
<Scott F here tonight>
Just a couple of questions for you this morning in regards to filter feeders.  And as always thank you for providing an outstanding service.
<Thanks for the kind words! We really love this stuff, too!>
The aquarium is a 55 Gal. Low Light FOWLR system.  40w Triton bulb is the only light that this system receives.  3" DSB and about 45 to 50 Lbs of LR and filtered chemically by occasional reef carbon run in a Tidepool I (No Mech.) and a CPR SR2 modified with a wooden air stone.
<That's actually a nice skimmer, IMO- if it cranks out a few cups of dark, yucky stuff weekly- it's a star in my book!>
The problem is that there is obviously a parasite problem in this tank that I'm having a difficult time shaking.  I have a policy that livestock should not be added from other sources that allows me to be sure that everything is quarantined, but these customers have gone ahead and added things on their own.  I'm guessing this is where my problem came from.  I've been trying RxP coupled with a lower salinity,(1.018) but so far I'm still losing fish in the system.
<I'd pull the fishes into a separate tank for treatment with copper sulphate, and let the main system run "fallow" for a month or so, until the parasite population "crashes" for lack of hosts...not the most fun way- but the best way, IMO>
My main question is would filter-feeding inverts such as sponges, scallops, feather dusters, etc. be of any help in the future to help control any outbreaks that may occur?
<Interesting thought. I suppose that an argument (however weak it may be) could be made that some of the free-swimming parasites can be "filtered out" like phytoplankton would be...I would not exactly call it a reliable technique, but it may be theoretically possible...>
Also, this being a low light system I thought that this might be a good way to add some beauty and interest to the tank as well since the tank will not support most corals.
<It sure would...There are lots of animals that can thrive under these conditions..>
There are some fish that seem to have no symptoms at all, but others are in terrible shape.  I will also try some biological cleaners as well such as cleaner shrimp and neon gobies.  Are spiny oysters suitable for a low light tank?
<I'd pass on these animals, myself...>
Thank you in advance for your help, have a great day. Myk.
<My pleasure! Take care! Regards, Scott F>

New fish in quarantine and now the end of the world.
Dear Crew:
All hell break loose when I come back home today, I see all my fish have white spot all over. (except Firefish and clowns), the rest, clown trigger, tangs and angels all have it. this is the situation:
Now I have 3 fishes that are in QT (33 gal)(the raccoon 5-6inch, scooter blenny and a coral beauty. They have no spot. And I am out of room for the hospital... what should I do?? as I said before, pls tell me. and I am ready to bomb the display and start it up again, I just need to know how.
<Take a deep breath Eric!  Go to WetWebMedia.com and search on Quarantine/copper treatment/ick/parasites for your plan. Do NOT tear your tank down or do anything rash!>
Pls give me some comments for a working plan.
<Just follow Quarantine with copper as per WWM. You may want to separate your Firefish, gobies, FW dip them as per WetWebMedia.com QT them in a separate container (Rubbermaid containers are inexpensive) and feed them medicated food (Seachem makes a Metronidazole soak or Tetra Medicated Anti-parasite food. I would also try to get the other fish eating this food or their regular food soaked as well. Follow the QT directions precisely and keep your main tank fallow of fish for at least one month.
The medicated food will help with any outbreaks upon re-introduction to the main. Go slow on the re-intro and reduce stress as much as possible.>
Here is the fish I have and the resources.
Main display: (120 gallon with 30 gallon sump overflow with 25W UV and Turboflotor 1000 PS)
Infected species:
Shoal tang (5 inch)
Rusty angel (near 3 inch)
Regal tang X2 (1,5 inch)
Clown trigger (3 inch)
<Copper for all of these. Test twice daily for copper levels and change water with main tank water (to be treated with copper).>
Non symptom showing species:
Firefish 2.25 inch
Clown 1.25 inch
Tomato clown 1.5 inch
<I would treat the clowns and dip the Firefish, both into separate QT's feed medicated food, clowns in copper, Firefish, Blenny and Wrasse in NEW water.>
QT: (33 gal protein skimmer and AquaClear 500 with heater and powerhead plus light, place to hide, no sure if it is copper free)
Raccoon bf (6 inches) not eating
Coral beauty (3 inch) eating
Scooter blenny (2 inch eating
Cleaner wrasse (2 inch) eating brine shrimp
ALL HAVE NO APPARENT WHITE SPOT
<Apparently....but not true, these are potential hosts>
This is what I have. And my plan is:
1: put all live rocks and invertebrates to my LFS.  
<No, leave in main as is, fallow of fish for at least a month.>
2: keep the 33 gal QT in optimum condition. and try to make Raccoon eat. Will put no copper in it, change carbon and absorb CU. Question is, can I use the main display water to do a water change? I am afraid the White spot will be transfer... (I do this to lower my NO3 level.) or should I make up new water?? ( I want to be cost effective.
<Use copper and main tank water is fine when copper is used. Run filter anyway, it will mechanically filter water and may not be too killed off by copper. NO copper or treatments of any kind in Main!!!!>
3: will set up another Hospital Tank (30 gal) with minimal equipment: use main display heater, and a Aquaclear 500. ( do I need one?? Maybe an air pump would do??) and lighting to treat Cu all fish in main display.
<I would leave the main alone, heated, skimmed, etc. and get two QT's, one with copper and one W/O for smooth fish (Firefish, blenny, etc). You need a heater for each and powerhead/filter.>
Add Copper for 14 days, and keep the fish in there until the main display is up and running again...
<Yep, but run with copper for two weeks only. Then w/o for two weeks to observe and be sure.>
4: drain all water from main display, wash with freshwater to get rid of parasite, what do I need to clean the gravel??
<No, no, no, no, no!  Just run fallow of hosts (fish) for over 30 days, hopefully more.>
5: fill the tank with fresh saltwater and run. (will that get rid of all the parasites????)
<No. Read QT pages at WetWebMedia.com.>
6: keep the fishes in both qt and HT until the main display is ready... (all cycled...)
<YES, but tank will be cycled, just needs to be free of fish.>
I need instruction on how to bomb the tank and gravel bed. And advise on how to keep these fishes alive in this two tanks.... pls help me... I am really exhausted. And I don't want to give up... pls help me. Your desperate loyal fan, Eric
<No worries, Eric, just get fish into QT's, test for wastes and copper in the QT with copper, and relax for a month or so. No bombing, nuking, sterilizing, etc. Please DO read the disease pages at WWM so you understand what is happening to you and your tank.  Best of luck!  Craig>

Ich on tomato clown
Hello,
     I have a 40 gallon tank, which has cycled, with a penguin bio-wheel, undergravel filter, and a power head.  Livestock I have include: A palette tang, coral beauty angel, and a black tomato clown, with orange fins.  A couple of days ago, I noticed what looked like excess mucus on my clown, so I stumbled onto your website, and figured I better watch it.  I checked the spg, and it was a high, so I lowered it to 1.020-1.021 <Don't know how much you changed the SG, but this needs to be done slowly, no more than 0.01 every couple days. These types of quick changes are what stress fish and allow ich to attack>.  This morning first thing, I turned on the light and noticed a bunch of new white flecks on my clown, they look like grains of salt.  The other fish seem to be spot free. <good>  
So I checked your website again, and was reading about ich.  When I checked on my clown an hour later, almost all of the spots were gone, except for maybe three or four, <keep observing and you might get a QT ready just in case> and there are faded white spots where they were.  Then I noticed the back wall of the tank.  Its is littered with little white specs, just like on the fish earlier<Are these moving? Maybe a common critter that appears in a tank normally>.  If I had to guess, I'd say there are maybe 30-50 spots on the glass.  Do you think this is ich?  Can I treat it in time?  <I would not treat anything in the main tank, move the infected individual to qt/hospital tank and treat there, Don> Any info would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance-Kevin

Re: ICH question
I've been reading over the FAQ's for a while now, and have yet to come across my question, so I'm going to go ahead and ask.  I have a fairly new tank, just a bit under 3 months now.  Its a 125g with very light stock.  4 blue damsels, a red spotted hawk, a Huma Huma trigger(2 1/2") and a sail fin tang(3 1/2").  My water conditions are fine, but I seem to have a new addition to my system....ICH!!  I've dealt with the pest before with fair success.  Basically I had a trigger and a Naso tang with it, and after a waiting game, they kicked it on their own.  It took about 4 months, but they did it.
At any rate, I've noticed that you really hit on the biological (natural) methods of getting rid of it, being cleaner shrimp and wrasses'.  Here's my quandary though.  I would love to use either, but I'm afraid with the presence of the trigger, this may be all but impossible.  I've seen the photo's of moray's tolerating a cleaning by a Lysmata shrimp, however, is that the norm, or and exception??  I would prefer to just clear my tank of the infestation all at once. I'm in no real hurry to add any new fish, but I could use a definitive plan of action.  IE, start with hypo salinity?, or dips?, or temperature changes?, or is it safe for me to add a couple cleaners with the trigger??  
This is my second trip into the salt side of the hobby, after a 3 year hiatus of breeding cichlids again (which for the fourth time I have swore off forever....haha), and I'm hoping I will have as much success as I did the first time.  I have come to find your site as an awesome tool, and now pass it on to my fellow hobbyist as the definitive site for information on marine fish keeping (hope you don't mind).  I would like thank all of you for your dedication to the hobby, and your willingness to share your knowledge
Cheers,
Jason Barnett
<Hey Jason, I would not go with the cleaner wrasse, chances are it will die when it runs out of fish to clean.  The cleaner shrimp may help, but there is a chance that it will become a snack for the trigger.  Your best bet is to remove the fish to a QT tank and treat with dips.  Allowing the main system to run without fish for about 4 weeks should allow the parasites to run their course and die off.  For more information on treatment check out the link below.  Best Regards, Gage
http://wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm >

QT, ich
Dear Don:
So it is normal for people to add buffer periodically for keeping the alk and pH constant?? <Yes, for some>
And how do I know the flow rate for the system and determine if another powerhead is needed?<If you aerate a small amount of tank water for a time and the pH raises dramatically, then more aeration will help with the low pH, is this a fish only tank (old age, can't remember) if so 10x plus would be good>
And, for the qt, I keep the light off??? No light?? Now I am running 12 hrs light with sunset. And the fish appears to be good!! <Your call, observation is the best determination. Hard to give hard and fast rules. a=b=c sometimes doesn't work here>
And as I said, the raccoon is still not eating, he is really interested though... as I feed the tank, he comes up and look at my finger, and will respond to the food, he just will not eat... should I try a fresh clam break open?? <a good thing to try, others have had success (as per the faq recommended in last message> Or any recommendation?? I am sure it is not shy or afraid ( I put the net in and he is not even afraid,,,) :) .
I will try clam then garlic, good strategy??<Ok, Keep up variety, some can be stubborn>
And will garlic help prevent ick in my tank??<Some report success here> I read your faq, and I would like to know your views on that. <more a preventative than treatment> I suspect that my regal in the main tang have it, not severe. Because I tried fallow in main display for 1 month for 3 times. And I did all the things I could, but the ick just won't go away. <What about temperature swing? No more than 2 or 3 degrees>Will garlic help?? Or should I just let the story
unfold and decide later?? <If you decide the latter, observe closely>As far as I know my fishes has been treated 2
times with CopperSafe, and I do not want to shorten/risk their life through another copper treatment. My LFS told me that if the water is stable and your fishes are eating and active, I can just let them heal themselves with cleaner shrimps (I have 3) <Will help of shrimp and fish cooperate> but my concern is that my regal tang is so small (2 inches). Will the shrimp help them? They are really eating well and active.... <good signs, watch closely>
Pls help
<I'm trying! Don>
Your loyal fan
Eric

Kicking Ich!
Hello,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you>
I have read your FAQs on ich in reef tanks, and also read Terry Siegel's article in the 2002 Marine Fish and Reef Annual, however I still have a question.  
<Ask away>
Background:  I have a 90g reef tank with a 20g refugium and a 10g sump.   About 115lb live rock, 1/2" aragonite in the display tank and 4" in the refugium (which has grape Caulerpa and a sea cucumber to keep the substrate surface stirred), ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are zero, Ph is 8 - 8.5, KH is 9.5 -10, calcium is 300 -350, phosphate is .1 -.2 (a little higher than I'd like), SG is 1.023 - 1.024.
<Get that phosphate level down if you can...More frequent (2 times a week) small water changes, use of chemical media, such as Poly Filter and Activated carbon help, too>
I use 1g Kalkwasser twice weekly to top off evaporation, weekly Kent SuperBuffer dKH and about weekly add a bit of iodine and strontium.  My fish are 1 Gramma, 1 clown, 1 hippo tang, 1 flame dwarf angel, 2 Banggai cardinals, 2 scissor gobies, 1 scooter blenny, and 2 neon gobies.
<Nice mix of interesting fishes>
Food is mostly frozen, some flakes and  fresh Caulerpa that some of them enjoy.  Invertebrates are 12 corals and polyps, 1 anemone, 2 brittle stars, 2 cleaner shrimp and a feather duster.  Fish and corals without exception are thriving!
Cool!>
The problem:  I took the Gramma out of my quarantine tank too early and it infected the rest of the tank with ich. (The lights are dim in the QT tank and I simply didn't notice the ich till it was under bright lights, but I also plead quilt to being too hasty).
Hey- we all make mistakes...and we certainly learn from them!>
My treatment plan: I added the cleaner shrimps and the neon gobies.  I increased the light by a few hours and raised the temp to almost 80 (in both cases not too much to endanger the corals).  I have been adding 2 drops of Kent's Garlic Extreme to each feeding.  The fish are acting fully normal and healthy, active and eating well.  Ich spots have disappeared on all fish but the small scaled hippo tang (but have diminished greatly on him too), but I understand that may be a result of the breeding cycle of Cryptocaryon as much as the treatment.
<Absolutely...glad you recognize that- lots of people see the spots drop off after a few days and think that they've "cured" their fishes...nope! It's just another stage in the life cycle of the parasite. They'll be back-and in greater numbers!>
My question:  Will this ongoing treatment plan truly eliminate the disease or simply keep the symptoms invisible?   Will I be exposing any new fish to ich?
<I'd have to say that you will probably not eliminate the disease with this plan. There is anecdotal evidence that garlic can repel the ich parasites by interfering with their receptor mechanisms, but I think that it is not a true "cure", as it does not attack the parasites themselves. My advice (and it's not fun, nor popular!) is to remove all of the fishes to a separate tank for treatment with copper sulphate. Meanwhile, the main tank should sit "fallow", without fish, for a month, which will essentially let the parasite population crash for lack of a host. After a month, it would be safe to return the fishes to their tank.>
I'd rather not break down the full system and CopperSafe the fish, but I will if that is the only way to eliminate the parasites.
<No! Please don't "nuke" the tank with copper...go fallow, my friend!>
Thank you, and I love your site. Jeffrey M. Zegas
<Glad that you like it, Jeffrey! Feel free to contact us again any time! Regards, Scott F>

Naso ich passes after dip
Hello WWM crew, I hope you guys can help me figure out what I did wrong. I've had a Naso Tang for about 6 months now and he started getting sick with ick a few weeks ago after the cleaner shrimp died doing a water change. This week I added an additional heater to help stabilize the temperature in the tank and added another pump to have more circulation in the tank and said to myself I will give him till Monday to see if he get's better. Well today he looked worse with a lot of ICK on him and not swimming much but he still came out to eat therefore I prepared the quarantine tank and setup to give him a freshwater dip. I put him in the freshwater dip for 5 minutes pulled him out and put him in the quarantine tank, he moved his fins twice then died. I don't get it. What did I do wrong? I matched the water temp for the FW dip and in the quarantine but yet he still died. Did I leave him in too long?  I'm very saddened by the fact that I killed my favorite fish.
Hopefully you can help me understand what went wrong.
Sincerely JR.
<JR, So sorry to hear of your loss. The only thing I can see is that possibly you waited a little long, giving the ich time to attack. But with that said, Ich can cause things to deteriorate very quickly and is deadly. As far as the dip goes, you did not mention anything about pH. Was that adjusted? If so, then it may have simply been under too much stress Don>>

Re: Emergency: Did a stupid thing: introduced ich!
For a week there has been no evidence of ich...I thought my cleaner shrimp took care of it.  Now, suddenly today I noticed a full blown outbreak in most of my fish.  Is the food containing Metronidazole still a good idea? Can you find a place that will send me some?
To start, I have gotten  another cleaner shrimp and two neon gobies, which I understand also eat ich.  I've also raised the temp to around 79/80, no higher to keep from endangering my coral.  Yes, you are right, I will NEVER
make this mistake again.
<Yeow Jeff! It wouldn't hurt to order the food to have it on hand. I would sure try it IF all of the fish will eat it. If any fish doesn't eat the medicated food, then it's QT time for all fish w/copper as per WetWebMedia.com disease/copper/Quarantine procedures. With ich in your tank you will need to feed the food for longer and perhaps to clear up small outbreaks as you will still have it in your system as they look for hosts. All hosts will be treated and have medication in their systems, so they will pass as well. You want to treat ASAP regardless of which treatment you choose. Call (360)357-9654 and have them send you the Tetra Medicated Anti-parasite food overnight. Ask for Bill. I have also fed this food in QT with copper in more severe cases. Keep an eye out to be sure the new gobies eat it too. They get ick too! Let us know if you need any more help!  Craig>

Ongoing ich treatment lack of understanding
Thanks Bob, I feel privileged to be exchanging e-mails with you. Went through some of the FAQ last night.
<Keep reading... and quickly>
Not a lot of rock ~80# in a 75gal, but it would all need to be removed then sift the sand to find the very timid yellow Coris wrasse. No chance for in
tank treatment? Plus how would the wrasse do in Q tank no sand etc.
<Not a good idea to treat the main tank... for reasons stated many times in WWM, and wrasse better to be treated w/o sand>
Appears you're not a fan of Greenex, what about Formalite from AQ?
<Formalin in both... See WWM re copper compounds.>
Qtank is 60 litres, 80° at 1.024 and doing 1/6 water change every 2 days.
Guess bring temp up, SG down and 25% every 2? Current occupants 5" purple tang, neon goby, ocellaris clown.
<Protocol covered... in WWM>
fyi, could only find one clown last night and placed in Q. This morning appears lost equilibrium.
<Very poor signs. Bob Fenner>
Thanks again
Mark

Re: Ich for breakfast (none for lunch)
Dear WWM Crew:
My Zebrasoma flavescens and Pseudochromis bicolor has signs of crypto in the mornings which completely disappear toward the later part of the day. It started happening 4 days ago. Have had them for approx. a month now. Apart from that, they are hale as ever. I understand that ich is ubiquitous and targets fish that are stressed, under fed, malnutritioned etc. but cannot comprehend why my fish are vulnerable in the mornings. And will this eventually kill them?  
<Actually... it's my opinion that marine ich is not omnipresent (that one can have a pathogen free system)... You have an interesting situation of stasis of sorts... a balance of "some" infestation... It can be tilted to the detriment of your fish livestock or away... I would at least try adding a cleaner (shrimp, goby), trying adjuncts to the fishes nutrition... improving the environment overall at this point, rather than removing the fishes to a treatment tank, letting the tank go fallow in an attempt to eradicate or at least weaken the parasite. Oh, and the reason the ich is evidenced in the AM but not later has much to do with how stressful night time is, how inactive and at the bottom the fishes are (and hence re-populated by the ich). Bob Fenner>
Please advice and thanks in advance.
Mimi

Re: At wits end with Ich -II
Jason
<Good morning, Joe.>
I now know that patience is a virtue and have been kicking myself more than you possibly could. <Ahh, then be patient with yourself and stop kicking.> I threw dollars at the tank in the form of equipment in an effort to short circuit my impatience but it just doesn't work. <No, it doesn't - does it?> Now that I have reformed help lead me to the path of salvation.  I currently have 2 triggers, 2 angels, 2 tangs, 1 wrasse, 1 hawk and a Moorish Idol that need quarantining while I let my tank run fallow.  I currently only have a 10 gal QT.  How large a QT will I need and how should I equip it?  another 20 gallons be enough? <I would consider several 20 gallon tanks to deal with this lot.> Once the ich is clear in 6 weeks, and I strictly enforce the 4 week curfew, will my chances be far greater not to contract this problem again? <Yes.> By the way, this is a FO tank with no live rock.  Is this also a mistake (not using live rock)? <For long term success, I would say yes.> Have I overstocked for a 110 gallon? <I think so, yes...>
Thanks again.
Joe
<Cheers, J -- >

Ich Again!
I've had my tank setup for 18 months and this latest bout with Ich has me just about ready to give up.
<Never give up! We're here for you!>
My tank is setup with all of the best equipment as recommended by users of this site, it is all oversized and properly maintained.  Water parameters are excellent (I even switched to RO/DI), temp is controlled via a chiller and dual heaters ......oh yeah, I also have a 25watt UV for which I change bulbs every 6 months.  I got impatient and pulled a fish too quickly from QT and ended up with Ich in the display (110 gal FO).
<It happens...We're all human. I KNOW that you'll never do that again, right?>
Over time after treating each fish it got to the point that I disregarded conventional wisdom and treated the display with copper.
<Not what I would do- but  hey, you used your best judgment...Can't be faulted for that>
It looked fine after treatment (3 weeks at appx 1.015-1.02) for about 2 weeks and voila, Ich on at least 3 fish.  With 9 fairly large fish, I don't see QT as a viable option therefore I can't allow the tank to go fallow for 4 weeks.
<Honestly, even though it's the biggest pain in the butt, I believe that letting the tank run fallow is the best, and most reliable way of breaking the life cycle of the causative parasite, and essentially eradicating this illness from your system. As an alternative to another tank, have you considered the large plastic Rubbermaid storage containers? They are relatively cheap, can hold fairly large amounts of water, and can do the job in a pinch. Throw in a filter and heater of correct size, some PVC sections for cover; maybe a cheap fluorescent light fixture, and voila-instant triage center! Not pretty- but it does the trick! Do consider this>
I have been thinking about hyposalinity.  Will this rid not only the fish but the tank of Ich?
<Hyposalinity can work, but frankly- I think that it's more trouble than simply letting the tank go fallow. In my opinion (notice I said "my"?), there are quite a few potential things that can go wrong with hyposalinity if you don't keep a very close eye on things. If not done carefully, there can be "collateral damage" to desirable animals. I think that environmental manipulation is a good alternative if you are dead-set on not removing all of the fishes, but it is not the most effective course.>
What is my best course of action?
<I like the fallow tank technique, as indicated above-if for no other reason than the fact that it denies the parasites access to a host, and absolutely reduces their population to a level that healthy fishes should be able to withstand It does work if done correctly>
I read all of the faq's, etc and I get conflicting answers.
<Yep- there are tons of opinions out there- no one is the 'perfect" answer. You just have to weigh all of the factors and choose the course of action that you feel will work the best. Just because the fallow tank procedure works for me does not mean that it will be the cure for your system. It is, however, very, very effective the majority of the time, and has been proven over and over by thousands of hobbyists and professional aquarists...>
Your response could save me from going over the edge and switching to fresh water. Thanks
<Again- don't give up! you're learning a lot from this awful experience! You'll be successful if you adopt a course of treatment and stay with it! You can do it! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Re: Ich again? (No... still)
Hi WWM crew, all my fish are scratching themselves against the sand and I don't seem to know why.  I have a Naso tang, blue powder tang, clown tang, Achilles tang, flame angel, and a Cuban hogfish and they all seem to be scratching against the sand now and then.
What is this a sign of?
<Cryptocaryoniasis>
I've recently rid my tank from ich 4 days ago with copper treatment and all the spots on the fish are gone.
<Mmm, no... they're just cycling into more feeding/Trophont phases. Your system still has the parasite. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the FAQs beyond>
There is absolutely no ich spots. Another question, do clown tangs and Achilles strive peacefully together?
<Almost never. Please see here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/tangs,.htm and the genus Acanthurus FAQs, Compatibility, Disease... linked above>
  Because ever since I bought the Achilles tang two days ago, the clown tang is constantly chasing after it.  Is it because the clown tang has a thing with the color black? Thank you for your time and knowledge.
<These fish species are incompatible... You have a few important tasks ahead of you. First, study what saltwater ich is... its life cycle... get and use a treatment tank... it's going to have to be large due to the types of fishes you have... and study how to treat these fishes there. You need to do all this NOW. Bob Fenner>
                                    -PHT-

Ich Behind The Clouds?
Hi WWM crew, thank you once again for all your past assistance.
<Our pleasure! Scott F with you today!>
I am now facing a battle with ich.  It first started with a few white spots on my Naso tang, then it spread to my clown tang and the flame angel.
But the thing is, the ich only appears in the morning and disappears again in the evening, then it reappears again the next morning.  Why is that? Is that normal?
<This is certainly a fairly common thing. It happens usually as a result of the parasite's life cycle....The parasites enter a free-swimming stage, and need to find a host. When the fish are sleeping, or not moving (i.e.; at night), they are simply easier for the parasites to "find". Weird, but quite true!>
This has been happening for about 5 days now.  I have a 180 gallon fish only tank with 100 pounds of live rock for decoration and 100 pound of live sand.  To
treat the ich, I have used a product called Cuprex II, a copper treatment, on the main tank.  The level of copper that I have in my tank reads at .25 - .3 ppm.
My question is, is what I'm doing suitable for my fish?  Is there any danger to this point of using copper to treat ich while having live rock and live sand?  I understand that live rock will absorb the copper and there is a possibility that my biological filtration will be destroyed.
<Well, I have always been against dosing the main tank, for most of the reasons that you've stated! I am strongly in favor of letting the main tank go fallow, without hosts for the parasites, and treating the fishes in a separate tank>
But still, I feel that this is the best way to get rid of ich.
<Well- knowing the potential problems, I guess you should just do your best to maintain a therapeutic level of copper in the tank. When the course of treatment is done, you could use a copper-removing filtration medium, such as Poly Filter or CupriSorb to remove the residual copper.>
Also, I have another question.  How come my water gets cloudy in the morning and clears up as the day progresses?
<Hard to say. This could be anything from a bacterial bloom to  the results of nocturnal activity of tank inhabitants...I'd make use of activated carbon and/or PolyFilter regularly, and change them frequently. Also, a schedule of small (like 5% of tank volume) twice-weekly water changes can help.
My water has not cleared up since I put in a few dead live rock about 2 weeks ago.  I've just done a 25%
water change hoping that it will clear up soon.
<Well, you could use some form of mechanical filter media, like polyester pads, and change 'em often. This, in conjunction with the other ideas just mentioned, should do the trick!>
Thank again for your help.  I am conscious that my questions are rather unorganized, but nevertheless, please aid me with my "on going struggle" for stable aquarium.
Thank you for your time and patience.-PHT-
<And thank you for stopping by! That's why we're here! Regards, Scott F>

- At wits end with Ich (Self-inflicted pain) -
<Greetings, JasonC here...>
I've had my tank setup for 18 months and this latest bout with Ich has me just about ready to give up.  My tank is setup with all of the best equipment as recommended by users of this site, it is all oversized and properly maintained.  Water parameters are excellent (I even switched to RO/DI), temp is controlled via a chiller and dual heaters ......oh yeah, I also have a 25watt UV for which I change bulbs every 6 months.  I got impatient and pulled a fish too quickly from QT and ended up with Ich in the display (110 gal FO)  Over time after treating each fish it got to the point that I disregarded conventional wisdom and treated the display with copper.  It looked fine after treatment (3 weeks at appx 1.015-1.02) for about 2 weeks and voila, Ich on at least 3 fish. <Before we get any farther, I'm sure you realize what the problem is here... quarantine is essential, and pulling the fish early was a mistake that you are now paying for. Likewise, the problem with treating the display with copper is not only do you end up nuking the biological filter, but typically the gravel and live rock absorb a portion of the copper, reducing it's effective dose. For a copper treatment to be effective, you need to dose daily for two weeks - fourteen days in a bare tank. Did you do this with your display?> With 9 fairly large fish, I don't see QT as a viable option therefore I can't allow the tank to go fallow for 4 weeks. <I disagree... not following this procedure at this point will leave you with somewhat less than nine fish at some point... please reconsider.> I have been thinking about hyposalinity.  Will this rid not only the fish but the tank of Ich? <In my experience, no it won't - at least not as the only means of treatment. Hyposalinity works best as part of a system of treatment, which also includes quarantine and freshwater dips.> What is my best course of action? <Letting the tank go fallow without fish for a month to six weeks.> I read all of the faq's, etc and I get conflicting answers. <That shouldn't be...> Your response could save me from going over the edge and switching to fresh water. <My friend, it's just as easy to have these problems with freshwater fish - recklessness and impatience will do you in regardless of the salinity of the water. Please re-read this email, and the statements you made - you will see all the answers are already there.>
thanks
<Cheers, J -- >

Re: re-ick
Hey Bob, Jodie here again.  I am sorry that I've lost you, let me fill you in...
<Ahh, thank goodness>
I have a 6 month old, 55gal tank setup with a orange tree sponge, two flower pots,
<Not easily kept>
hammer coral, fox coral, brownish mushrooms, finger leather, two small yellow polyps, hermits and snails.  I had a sohal tang,
<In a 55?!>
a flame angel, and a maroon clown, whom all died right before Christmas of ick or a white fungus caught too late. I have a snowflake eel who survived and just placed a red scooter blenny in on Saturday.  I have treated the tank with hex-a-mit.
Everything seems to be fine and do not plan on adding fish  until February.  When I do add the fish, I need a "hospital" tank before placing into the 55gal, correct?
<Yes, aka quarantine tank>
  I have just found your site recently and I cannot find the "hospital"/quarantine info. Is it in Set-up or Maintenance in the Marine Aquarium Articles?
<Oh! Yes. Please see here:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm and the linked files (articles and FAQs) linked at top (in blue)>
Thank you for your patience and I hope this will help you to help me. Jodie
<Am glad to share. Bob Fenner>

- Ich Questions and Pump Selection -
Dear crew!! <Howdy, JasonC here...>
As I am fighting with ich these days ,  (some of my beloved fishes died…sad story) anyhow.. <Sorry to hear of your loss.>
I was shopping the other day in a fish store and I was looking for a quieter pump, I have a 120 gallon reef with 35-40 gallon sump, driven by a MAK4 pump rated at 1180gph (plenty of power!!!). I use it for circulation and for my UV sterilizer (through a ball valve to control the flow). The pump have good electricity consumption, and run quite well. But it is a little bit too noisy for my living room. I was thinking if the velocity T4 would be a better choice for me since I heard the noise level is very very low. And they produce the same amount of gph, what do u recommend?? <I've never used this pump myself but have heard other people say it's not very dependable. You might want to pose this question on our forum where you can get a broad range of opinions: http://wetwebfotos.com/talk >
And also, noise level is the reason why I want to switch. Second, I have heard something about the velocity pumps run very very hot, one of the people in a BBS wrote he could not touch the pump surface for more than 2 second!! Is that right?? <I don't know.> Or my question is that, will it produce more heat in the water than my MAK4?? <If it runs as hot as they say, it might.> Because I do not have a chiller, and I am not planning to invest in one. What should I do??? <Ask around.>
Last question. As I am fighting with the evil ich, I left the main display fallow for 20 days now and reduce the flow rate of my UV to better kill free flow protozoan, and I am planning to introduce the fishes back into the main display after 30 days. Is that right?? <Well, your fish are in quarantine tanks receiving treatments as well, yes? If so, then they should be about as disease free as they can be when you re-add them. You could also give them a pH-adjusted, freshwater dip before adding them to the main system. That's about as thorough as you can be.> If it is, should I introduce a fish that is prone to ich attack in first and watch for signs??? <You could try that, sure.> Like a regal tang? <I guess.> And if that is right, how long do I have to observe the fish in the main display before I can introduce the rest of the pack?? <Well... that's really hard to say definitively. I would add them over a period of weeks - one at a time to allow your biological filter to readjust and in turn for the fish to get used to the main system again.>
Eric
<Cheers, J -- >

Re: Urgent!!!!! ich again
Hi Craig,
How are you? You're probably sick and tired of me bugging you with numerous questions.
<Hi Jun, I'm fine!  Nope, you can write anytime!>
My second purple tang has ich (sounds familiar?). I know tangs are ich magnet but can't help myself. I just love them. The purple tang was QT'd for 3 weeks before I introduce him in my main tank. 5 days later, he's got ich. I finally got him out last Tuesday night and into my hospital tank (20 gal). I added 2 ml of Cupramine (did not do FW dip because he is already covered with ich and I am afraid that he wont survive the dip) and 2 days later I added another 2 ml of Cupramine. I used a Salifert copper test and I got 0  copper reading. I called SeaChem and they told me that 4 ml of Cupramine will give a reading of .5 ppm (recommended therapeutic level). I ordered a SeaChem copper test from marine depot and got the test  today. Run the test right away (this time using SeaChem copper test) and the copper level/reading is still 0 ppm in my QT.
My question is should I dose my QT with 2 ml of Cupramine again. The tang's condition has significantly improved from Tuesday (1/14/03). He still has a few white spots left, maybe 4 or 5, on it's body and dorsal fin. He started eating again yesterday and appears to be in no distress. The product says that I have to keep the copper level at .5 ppm for 14 days for it to be effective. I'm afraid that the parasite is just dormant right now and that they may develop immunity to copper and infest my tang again in a few days. Please help. No carbon in my canister, using cycle and Amquel for ammonia spike (hospital tank not fully cycled).
Thanks again... Jun
<Administer the copper as shown needed by the test kit and maintain it at the level on the Cupramine label. The ick won't develop an immunity to copper.  I usually test once in the AM and once in the PM for proper copper level. Make sure you don't have anything that will react with the copper like LR or sand. Everything should be inert (plastic, glass, etc) Keep him in the copper for the two weeks, two weeks more W/O, and hold your tank fallow for as long as you can stand it. I would also start feeding him medicated food before you put him back in the main, so he will be eating it steadily at the time of stress and possible reinfestation.  Follow the label and feed it for two weeks. The remaining ick in your main will not have a viable host (that isn't medicated) so they will die. I did this and had a few spots after two months of QT! The medicated food did them in (all my fish love the stuff for some reason) and I haven't had so much as a minor spot in over a year. (knocking on wood as I type). I'm a big fan of copper and Metronidazole (Flagyl) for ick.  This should do the trick.  I just keep the food handy in case of minor outbreak. Good luck!  Craig>

Re: Urgent!!!!! ich again
No carbon in my canister, using cycle and Amquel for ammonia spike (hospital tank not fully cycled).
Thanks again...Jun
<One more thing Jun, read the Amquel label and make sure it doesn't sequester copper as well as ammonia and nitrates.
It may affect your copper levels. If so, use main tank water for changes making sure you keep copper at the recommended level.
Best of luck!  Craig>

Heavy (copper) metal
Craig,
The Amquel level mentioned heavy metal not copper. Is copper consider a heavy metal? I hope this question is not too dumb.
Jun
<Not a dumb question at all!  If it can sequester heavy metals, it can sequester some or all of your copper. Try to stick to water changes to keep the wastes under control. You might run a filter on your main for a few weeks before your next introduction so you have a good bio-filter for your QT. Good luck!  Craig>

Quick response appreciated
I have set up 8 weeks ago a marine/reef system with 90g display, 20g refugium and 10g sump, with 115lb live rock, 4" aragonite and Caulerpa macroalgae in the refugium, 1/2" aragonite in the display tank, big skimmer, everything going great.  Temp 77, Ph 8.2, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate zero, KH 10, calcium 350+, phosphate a bit higher than I'd like at .2.  Have 7 corals and polyps of different varieties, 265w compact fluorescent lights.  Other livestock:  two brittle stars, one cleaner shrimp, one scooter blenny, an electric flame scallop, 2 scissor gobies, 1 hippo tang, 1 percula clown, 1 flame angel and 2 Banggai cardinals.   I have a quarantine tank, and bought a royal Gramma and had him in the quarantine tank.  He looked fine, so tonight I put him in the main tank.
Well, to my horror, once I saw him under the Brite lights of the display tank, I noticed what seemed to be ich white spots!  Trouble is, I cannot catch him.  What should I do now?  Dismantle the entire tank till I catch him and take him out?  Wince he has been in there a few hours, has he already infected the entire tank?  Are the invertebrates in any danger?
Jeffrey M. Zegas
<Hi Jeffery, Sorry to hear of your situation. QT should be for at *least* two weeks to reveal these things before intro to main. I *know* you won't make this error again....  You have two choices, tear the tank down to catch all your fish and QT them in copper for two weeks with two weeks to follow w/o copper while holding the main tank fallow of *fish* (inverts, shrimp, etc. okay) for at least one month, longer is better. OR, find Tetra's medicated Antiparasitic food (a discontinued but still available product) and get all of your fish eating this food for the two week period on the label. This product contains Metronidazole.  Seachem also makes a Metronidazole additive that you could use with your existing food. I would do this ASAP to get ahead of this before it becomes a full blown infestation. All the chasing and attempted netting is a lot of stress which will induce an outbreak. If you can't find the food (established fish and pet stores are the best place to start, also e-bay) write me back and I'll send you to a store that has it and will overnight mail it to you. Don't waste any time with "reef safe" main tank treatments, they don't work and aren't safe. Be judicious with the medicated food and feed only what is eaten right away. You don't want medicated food fouling your system if you choose this treatment. Best of luck!  Craig>

Help!  Powder Blue Ich
Hello WWM Crew!,
<Hello Maurice>
I unfortunately need your advice again.  My power blue is eating quite well, however he now has an outbreak of what looks like Ich.  White spots and they look like they are causing some small welts on his body.  I feel really bad for him, I'm sure he must be miserable.
<I imagine>
Situation:  I've fed him and the other fish food with the garlic elixir, but I'm not sure if that caused my protein skimmer from working effectively.
<Can do so>
I read in some of your faq's that garlic oil will prevent the protein skimmer from working properly.  I'm thinking maybe the elixir is the same.
<Yes>
I'm wondering if the water quality went down because of this and caused him to break out with Ich.
<... might have contributed>
Action:
I did a water change Friday and gave him a freshwater dip. (water quality is ok, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate)
But the spots came back and he seemed to be ok no noticeable change of color or erratic behavior.
Sunday many more spots are visible.
Sunday night began turning up the temp from 76 to 78.  Over the next couple of days I will adjust it to 82
Today (Monday) I noticed he is a much lighter not the deep blue he normally is.  And he's scratching more.
<The cycle is ramping up... to a hyperinfestation>
Today (Monday) I took the measures that were mentioned in your faq's about lowering the specific gravity starting this morning lowering it to 1.019.  Tomorrow I will lower to 1.016.  I imagine changing too drastically would be bad?
<Yes... though the temp. and spg. should have been changed when you first noticed symptoms>
Today (Monday) fed him in the morning seems to have no loss of appetite.  Breathing looks ok Planning to continue 1.016 spg and temp at 82 for one month.
Planning to get cleaner gobies for ongoing measures
<Sounds good>
Questions:
Should I give him another freshwater dip?  Or would that be too much stress on him considering I just gave him one on Friday.
<I would not dip this fish at this point>
And figuring he will just get more parasites once I put him back into the main tank. ( I don't have a QT), I hate to see him suffer.  
<This is inconsistent. If you did not want this fish to suffer you would have gotten a quarantine tank and used it>
Because the tank is fish only, would you recommend I use copper safe to treat the whole tank?  Or try the lowing spg before taking chemical measures?
<You can read my, others opinions on this issue on WetWebMedia.com>
After lowering the spg to 1.016 how long after should the Ich clear up? 1day?
<Too late for such a rapid "cure"... your system now has a multi-stage infestation... The system won't cure with fish hosts present even with the lowered spg>
If they are still attached then would you recommend using copper safe to treat the whole tank?
<Please see WWM... I would not treat the main/display system>
I tried to look on your website for info on setting up a QT where specifically should I be looking?
<Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm and read through the linked articles and FAQs (at top, in blue), and the areas of the site on Parasitic disease... their treatment>
Thank you in advanced for your help.  I really appreciate your advice as always.
Maurice
<Time to study and act my friend. Get that quarantine/treatment tank going, remove your fishes to it, treat them there. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help!  Powder Blue Ich
Thank you Bob for the good advice as usual.
I went out and purchased a QT and set it up today! (better late then never huh, another lesson learned)
<Yes>
10gal tank
bio wheel filter
heater
Water used from main tank
Plan on daily water changes 10%
<Better to check on water quality, do larger changes as needed>
Today I gave the fish a dip prior to putting it into the QT, also bought some stuff called "NOX-ICH" from LFS (active ingredient sodium chloride, malachite green 1%) (inert ingredient 99.9%), but after reading some things on your FAQs I'm wondering if this is safe to use on my power blue so I didn't put it in yet.
<I wouldn't. Instead... oh, I see below>
I'm also a little confused on the directions which says to use 3 consecutive days.  Does that mean I put in the noted amount then after 3 days put in a carbon filter to remove the medication.  Or do I put in the noted amount everyday for 3 consecutive days then stop and monitor him for 2-4 weeks.
<Don't use it at all>
OR, is it better to use Copper Safe by Mardel for 1 month.  I also read on the FAQs that copper could be dangerous for the fish also?
<All useful medications for fishes have potential and real toxicity levels, exposures. I would/do use copper compounds for Cryptocaryon.>
What is your recommendation for medicating him?  Copper Safe, NOX-ICH, or is there something else you recommend for my power blue?  I'm holding off putting any medication in the QT until I get your advice.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bestcryptfaqs.htm and quickly... and all the other related Crypt FAQs files beyond. Bob Fenner>
Thank you again for your help.
Maurice

Re: Help!  Powder Blue Ich
Hi Bob,
Sorry to bother you again, two more question I promise.
Fish in tank:
3-1/2"   Orange spotted rabbit
3"         Naso tang
2"        Fiji puffer
4"         banana wrasse
           2 small damsels
3-1/2"  power blue (currently in 10 gal hospital tank)
<... the rest of the fish have to be removed from the main tank... the system itself is infested... It's obvious to me you have not read where I've sent you... very disappointing>
I now notice two spots on the rabbit fish and 1 spot on the fin of the Naso (which I'm sure you knew would happen).  As you mentioned not to copper treat the main system even though it is fish only.
I saw a used 40 gal tall (unfortunately not long) tank at my local fish store.  If I attach a brand new Eheim canister filter, and fill it with a bag of sand from my main tank do you think that would be good enough to house all of my fish and treat for ich for 1 month, while my main system goes fallow?  Or is 40Tall too small?
<Please go to WWM and study>
Since my main tank is fish only would you recommend lowering the salinity below 1.016 to maybe 1.000 or below and raising the temperature above 82,
maybe 85 or higher to expedite the process.
<Ditto>
Thank you again for you wisdom.  No more questions from here I promise.  I just want to make sure I'm heading down a good path.
Maurice
<... my friend, the answers to these questions and myriad more things you need to know to save your fishes (that you're not aware of to ask currently) are posted where I've sent you repeatedly. Commit yourself to enough understanding for the health of your livestock.
Bob Fenner>

Treatment for Ich
Mr. Fenner: <Actually, it's JasonC today...>
I know you're probably asked this question dozens of times during a day, but I'm a beginner and need the help. I have a 75 gallon SW tank running a Emperor carbon-based filter. I have  40 lbs of live rock and 25 snails, 20 hermits, 6 peppermint shrimp, 2 emerald crabs. Recently, I added a Coral Beauty and a True Percula clown and a long tentacle anemone (they were bonded). I also have a few mushroom corals and button polyps. Parameters: Ammonia 0.0-0.1, Ph 8.0, Nitrite 0.0, Nitrate 0-5, salinity 1.022. <Your pH is a little low... should be in the 8.2-8.4 range.>
I noticed yesterday the coral beauty had white spots. I removed it to my quarantine tank (after 30 min.s of frustration) and treated it with Kick-Ich and the blue drops (the name escapes me at this time). Beforehand, I gave him freshwater dip for about 3-4 min.s. How long should I continue to treat him with the drops? <Follow the directions on the bottle of blue drops. Without knowing what they are, I can't give you an answer better than that.> I also added 7 oz of Kick-ICH to the main tank, but did not shut down my carbon based system. <Well... this solution is based on pepper of some type and will likely go away on it's own. I would avoid treating the main tank with anything, Kick-ICH included.>
In my main tank I have the clown, who when I left for work this morning has no signs of ich, but has only been swimming in the corner of the tank near my powerhead and heater. He had a bump near his left eye, but it appears to be better. Almost looked like he bumped it off a rock or something. I'm worried he is having problems because he hasn't moved from the corner all but to swim along the back of the tank. He hasn't even looked for the anemone. I moved the anemone to a better location, more in the light and toward the clown. The clown does eat. Should I remove the clown to the quarantine tank? <Well, you should be quarantining these fish before you put them in the main tank. Likewise, it does take a while - up to a month - for fish to feel comfortable in their new surrounds, so I would give it time. Is there anyone else in the tank that might be hassling this fish?>
I also want to note, when cycling my tank my damsels came down with ich. I treated for two and a half weeks w. kick-ich and raised my water temp. I added two new damsels before adding my clown and coral beauty and they presented no symptoms of disease. <Ahh perhaps the damsels are bugging the clown. I would bail on the damsels just because they get meaner and meaner with time/age.>
Any advice you could throw my way would be helpful. <Take it slow and do some reading. Here's a good place to start: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm >
Thanks!
Mike, Toledo,
Ohio
<Cheers, J -- >

Possible Ick
I just want to thank you a head of time for your help..... I have a 55 gallon saltwater tank, I have two clowns, three snails, and I had a Bi-color Angel (which just died yesterday) and a fish like the attachment below. Well I found out that the Bi-color Angel was a hard fish to keep alive and I failed to keep him alive...... Now the fish below is losing his color and it looks like he has maybe 7 or eight little white spots on his skin? He is brushing against my live rock more than usual and he is not as aggressive as he usually is.... Im afraid that he may have ick? I just did a water change 3 days ago (I tested the water and my levels are perfect and I checked the salt level and its fine) and the next day the Bi-color angel died.... I'm not sure what kind of ick medicine I need so it will not hurt my live rock.... or maybe I do not need Ick medicine at all?  If you could help me I would really appreciate it....
Thanks again and you all are the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<You need to remove all fishes to another system, lower spg, raise temp... per the protocol/understanding you will develop by reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm and onto the FAQs on Cryptocaryoniasis/Marine Ich. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich?!
Greeting WWM crewmembers!
<And greetings to you. JasonC here...>
You are truly providing a wonderful service to conscientious aquarists around the world. Thanks! Your website is my home page whenever I start IE, and I read all the daily FAQs in addition to reading about specific subjects frequently. I am looking forward to buying your new book in a couple of months. <Glad to hear it.>
I have a dilemma that I would be grateful for your opinion on WARNING--long story coming): <Ok, I have my seatbelt on...>
Here’s my current set-up, started around Thanksgiving 2002:
80 G FOWLR with >60# LR (mixed Pacific) in tank  pumping up to:
10g DSB refugium upstream with 5# LR & small skimmer with Aquazone 100 ozonizer,  draining down into:
18g DSB refugium with algae, assorted copepods & mysids & snails plus 20# beautiful Kupang LR, draining back to main tank.
Additional filtration:
Aqua C Remora Pro
Emperor 400
2X Fluval 404
Current Parameters: T=77, pH=8.2, Ca=340, dKH=10, Redox=295; Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate all non-detectable.
Stock: 5” Cuban Hogfish, 2” Ocellaris Clown, 3” Yellow-Headed Jawfish, 2” Royal Gramma, 3” Purple Firefish, 2 brittle stars, assorted snails & hermit crabs.
The Problem: I rashly introduced a Yellow-Tailed Blue Damsel after about 10 days in QT because I suddenly had problems keeping the pH there above 7.6! All seemed well and he got along fine with the others.
Yesterday morning (after a few days in the tank), I noticed 2 small white spots on his tailfin (1 upper, 1 lower, about 2 mm from edge). At first I thought they might be bubbles (have been having lots of problems with microbubbles--resolved with flow adjustments). After several hours I decided it must be ich.
Last night, I acted promptly and perhaps rashly by capturing him and putting him into my 10G QT. This required removal of all the LR (impossible to put back the way it was--new arrangement now). I also added a tank-raised Neon Goby (after FWB with Methylene blue--sorry, no QT--wanted its cleaner services right away) and a Cleaner Shrimp to pick up any new spots on other fish.
I gave the Damsel an 8-minute FWB with MB before putting him in the QT. A couple of hours later I could no longer see the spots. Should I go ahead & treat him with copper. <No, as long as you have it isolated in quarantine, keep it under observation. You may have nailed it with the freshwater bath, but do give it some more time. Perhaps spend the next couple of days trying to figure out why the pH was dropping so low.>
In the process of removing the LR, my Gramma wound up out of the tank for a few minutes (the second time he's jumped while I was messing with the tank--a few weeks ago, I narrowly missed stepping on him. <Doh!>
Imagine my horror and dismay when, after getting everything set back up & running, I noted a white spot on the Gramma's tailfin. I went and did something else for a while to console myself and steel myself for the daunting task of removing the Gramma. When I came back--no spot. He seems fine today. No spots on him or anyone else. <Stress can do this sometimes, and given a healthy fish, they are able to fight it off. As a general rule, ich is almost impossible to get rid of completely without harsh chemicals so in most systems where it is never seen, the fish are living with it... kind of similar to how one might be able to avoid the flu all winter long while those around you suffer - or vice versa.>
Should I do anything further with the main tank other than waiting several weeks before adding another fish? <Not other than waiting, no. Just keep an eye on things.>
I had intended to complete the mix with a Yellow Tang and a Flame Angel over the next couple of months. I need something to eat all the d****d Caulerpa that came with the Kupang LR in the main tank. It loses bits & pieces all over the tank.
Sorry for rambling on so... <No worries.>
Thank you again for all your help! Steve.
PS: I've heard rumors about a new Pocket Invertebrate Guide, a volume 2 to Reef Fishes, and a volume 3 to The Reef Aquarium. Have you heard any projected release dates. I am very interested in these (in addition to your forthcoming book). <One thing at a time, as they say. Cheers, J --

New Tank- Same Ich!
Hello yet again, in about two to three weeks I'll be moving up from a 50 to a 125gln tank. I am experiencing an ick outbreak in my tank at the moment so I know my water is infected to some extent, given that, what is your suggestion to transfer the fish and live rock.
<I'd definitely keep the fish in a separate "hospital tank" for treatment during this period of time. I would transfer the live rock and/or sand to the new tank, and let it sit without fishes for at least 30 days...Basically like leaving the "current" tank fallow while the fish are treated (my usual recommendation when fighting ich). The parasite population will still crash for lack of hosts. If you don't want to move the sand, I won't fault you..!>
I have about 60lbs of rock, buttercup coral, bubble coral, purple mushroom with 3 green Chromis, yellow tail Coris wrasse, a pair of yellow band maroon clowns and a blue line angel on the way. I just acquired a 20gln quarantine tank also.
<You will never regret that purchase!>
I'm thinking I should start my tank with my existing live rock in it and let it cycle, in the mean time my new angel will be quarantined and once his 30days are up he can be put in the large tank. Then, add two or three to the Q-tank for 30days and then the remainder if all goes well with the first group. Do you have any suggestions and at what point do I add the corals?
<That makes sense. Perhaps a bit longer than 30 days, given the ich situation. I'd add the corals after the ammonia and nitrite have returned to undetectable levels, then maybe wait one more week, to make sure everything is A-OK, then add the fishes (provided that they are ich-free).>
On a side note I am building my own cabinet for the new tank, is there any  need/reason to add a light above the wet/dry system? I still have the cheap florescent light that came with my 50.
<I like the idea of lighting the sump if you are growing macroalgae or using animals which require light, such as xenia, for nutrient export>
I thought you would like to know that I gave your web address to my LFS owner and he had nothing but praises for all of you. He is a retired chemist from Chevron petroleum and he and his wife now run the store and is very knowledgeable. He stated that he's already given your site to others as well, thought you'd like to know, many thanks ahead of time. Steve Suniga
<It's great that you have a dependable, knowledgeable local fish store. We're all on the same team-we all win when we learn together! Best of luck to you! regards, Scott F>

The Emperor's New... Parasite?
Hi, this email is short in the interest of your valued time...and not for the purpose of being short in a rude sense.
<No offense taken!>
There are many white dots all over the emperor angel. I think it's ich? I don't know for sure?
<Hard to say without seeing it, but grain-of-salt-sized dots are a good indicator of ich>
What is the best/most effective chemical or product I can put into the tank without killing the beneficial bacteria
<Ich is highly contagious, as you probably know. IMO, the most effective treatment for ich is a commercial cooper sulphate preparation, such as Cupramine or Copper Safe, used according to the manufacturer's instructions. To be quite frank, I think you should remove all of the fish from the tank, let it sit "fallow", without fishes for at least one month, and treat the fishes in a separate "hospital" tank. DO NOT treat your main system...too problematic, in terms of maintaining therapeutic levels of copper, etc.>
55gal
4" porcupine puffer
4" lunare wrasse
4" niger trigger
4" emperor angel
<A larger tank is in the future, right? Those guys get pretty big!>
live sand
35% filled w/ live rock
protein skimmer
82 degree avg temp
1.023 avg salt
8.25 avg ph
ammonia, phosphate, nitrite, nitrate
Thanks a million, Eddie
<No problem, Eddie! With quick, decisive action, you can definitely beat the ich infestation. Hang in there! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Get The Ich Outta Here!
It all started last week. We had just moved our new hippo tang that had been quarantined for several weeks into the main tank. A few days later I noticed that his eyes were cloudy and his color was faded. It had marks on its body. We treated it as though he had ich, moved him to our QT tank and treated him with CopperSafe. He was dead three days later. A couple of days later, our yellow tang had white spots on his fins and was itching on the rocks. Moved him to the copper treated tank. His fins are all frayed. We still have fish in our main tank and I am starting to wonder if our royal Gramma doesn't have it, too.
<I'd go out on a limb and hazard a guess that all of the other fishes in the tank either have it, or will contract it soon. Once a parasitic illness such as ich is in your tank...it's IN the tank, and will be until eradicated!>
We also have two other domino damsels and a percula clown in the main tank along with some Scarlet Hermit Crabs, Turbo Snails, Dwarf Red tip hermit crabs, a sand sifting sea star and a serpent sea star. The damsels nor the percula seem to be affected. The set-up is a 75 gallon with 90 lbs live rock, sump, and in-sump protein skimmer. I have been feeding the fish garlic extract with their food to try to keep the ich away.
<I'm glad you said "To try to keep the ich away". I think you're correct in that viewpoint. Garlic may have some benefits as an ich preventative/diet supplement, but it is somewhat unproven as a "cure".>
My question is, would it be best to put all of the fish in the QT tank with tang and let the main tank go fallow? How long would the main tank need to stay without fish if we kept all the other critters in there and kept water parameters the same?
<Yes! I think that is an excellent idea. I'd let the tank run fallow for at least a month. Do perform all normal routine maintenance (i.e.; water changes, filter media cleaning/replacement, etc) on the tank during the fallow period.>
What to do with a real bruiser of a bully domino damsel (I suspect Gramma and little damsel will have a hard time hiding from him in our 29 gallon QT tank). Is there anything else we can do to speed up the treatment of the ich (yellow tang is my favorite and I don't want to loose him)? Any help would be appreciated. This tank has only had occupants for a few months now.
<I'd consider putting the damsel in one of those "net breeder" containment systems designed for livebearing fishes, that hang in, or are clipped to the tank. Unfortunately, there is really no way, or advantage to, speeding up the treatment process. The treatment must be for an entire life cycle of the causative parasite Just follow the directions of the manufacturer of the medication that you are using. Just hang in there, follow the prescribed course of treatment, and you'll beat this illness. You did a great job on diagnosing and taking action thus far-stay with it, and you'll do okay! Good luck! Scott F>

Ich in the evening
Hello everybody, could you answer my question?
<I'll certainly try. If I can't I'll pass it on to the rest of the crew>
I have a 50gln salt tank with a cleaner wrasse a juv. asfur angel, small falcula butterfly, yellow tail Coris wrasse with approximately 60lbs of live rock, two heaters, power head aiming from left to right towards the bottom rear with a penguin 330 filter. I keep the temp between 78-80 degrees, all parameters are well but here is my question, every evening my asfur and butterfly come down with ick and in the morning they are clear. I just got done giving both a fresh water bath, checking ph, temp and dechlorinating and now they are twice as bad.  Why the outbreak every night and why the infestation after the bath?
<I would get these guys into the quarantine tank ASAP and try to diagnose what is causing the ich. Have you read our disease files at WWM? There is tons of information on file. "Disappearing and reappearing ich is standard and I'm afraid if not treated promptly will become "all ich...all the time." That would be really bad>
Per your suggestion I've acquired a Q-tank and as soon as I complete the cabinet I'll be setting up my new 125, yahoo! Thank you in advance for your time and effort, it doesn't go unnoticed.
<Your recognition is appreciated. The answer to your question can be found in the disease archives at WWM. Check it out! David Dowless>

Ich Strikes Again!
We have got a 210 gal tank we have had a 6 1/2 inch Queen Angel since 12-30-02 along with a Naso Tang purchased the same day.  No fish in the tank and no QT, they have both done good from the get go.
<Well, you know that quarantine is a good idea..>
The angel immediately started eating and the Naso after a day or so started eating also.  We introduced 50 lbs of LR, 2 Percula clowns, a cardinal and a red banded shrimp from another 65 gal tank that has been doing great for about a year, no problems what so ever) on 1-6-03.  Everybody gets along, the shrimp was a little shy, or so we thought, then yesterday we found him dead...not the problem though...yesterday 1-9-03 we noticed when we did the evening feeding the angel was not eating and he just wasn't as active as he has been he is not laying around by no means but he was a very active fish and now just slowly moves around the whole tank, sometimes stopping for a period of time not on bottom though , doing a little twitching, his top and bottom fins are what we notice the most, and its not bad but noticeable and not right) we also noticed a small white raised dot under his right eye we do not think it was there when we got her, we have had an outbreak of ich before and are a little "white dot shy" you could say). Now we are worried this may be happening again.  We have good water quality all the test kits seem to check out great, the temp is approx 76.4 and salinity is good.  We have had a case of ich in the large tank that killed a beautiful trigger and almost got the Harlequin tusk but we treated the entire tank with copper, the harlequin lived and so did the eel.  For at least a month the harlequin and the eel were it (the eel ate all the others).
<Yikes!>
The local guy here took the eel and harlequin back and we immediately put the angel and Naso in the tank (acclimating of course)....Now, is this the on set of ich and what in the world do we do to stop this from happening again.  We have never for the last 4 years had a problem with ich!!!  Any input is appreciated, your website is great but I have not seen anything that exactly fits our situation.  Thanks again, Lisa
<Well, Lisa- it sounds like you might have some sort of parasite, quite possibly ich. The best way to treat this would be to move the affected specimens to a separate tank for treatment with copper sulphate again. Let your main tank go "fallow", without fishes for at least a month. This should break the life cycle of the parasite. I really implore you to embrace some sort of quarantine procedure for all new fishes, no matter how healthy they appear. Some diseases do not manifest with symptoms until much later  (sometimes a few weeks or more), and quarantine gives you a chance to discover and address these diseases before they get out of hand in your main system. Read up on the parasitic disease FAQs on the wetwebmedia.com site for more information. You can lick this disease with quick, decisive intervention. Good luck! regards, Scott F>

Re: ick??
Hello, again.
thanks for the info, although I do not have a "hospital tank" set up, the eel seems to be doing fine, there are no ick spots on him.  we received him two days before the last fish died. we did about a 30% water change and treated the tank with hex-a-mit for a week.  I am wondering if we should continue to treat the tank and for how much longer.  I would also like to know what the set up would be for the "hospital".
<This set-up is the same sort of tank, gear as for quarantine. Please see WetWebMedia.com re>
  I am also wondering if these KENT MARINE solutions are actually necessary and good for the aquarium, fish, and corals??? >>>coral-Vite, iodine, strontium&molybdenum, liquid calcium, and Zoë.  
<Why would you use them, buy them in the first place? I don't encourage you/anyone to use anything they don't have need, test kits for. You can insert each name in our Google Search tool on WWM homepage and read/study re their application, utility.>
I have not placed these in the tank since all the fish died; but some of the solutions are for the corals too; so I was wondering if these are really necessary, they seem like they would be.
thanks for your time.
<Study. Bob Fenner>

Ich, UV, set-up
Guys!
How are you?? I am really grateful that people like you guys are here to help us newbie!!  
<Glad to be here>
Well, I am still fighting ich with a losing battle. I have been fighting this outbreak for 2 weeks now…
I bought a Aquanetics UV sterilizer 25W last week. And I am not sure what I am doing is right.
The way I hook it up is like this, the water going into the UV by using a tee junction with a switch (to control flow rate 200-300 gph ) from the sump pump (so water is gone through all filtration steps.) and after these water pass through the uv , it goes into the protein skimmer (I have a Turboflotor 1000 AquaMedic , it uses 2 pumps, and I hook the water outlet from the UV to the skimmer water inlet) PLS LOOK AT PICTURE.
  Is this hook up ok?? Because I save a Rio 600 pump, and the skimmer works fine. If not, what should I correct??
<All the water should circulate through the UV (that is the discharge from the sump back to your tank), rather than part loop back through your UV>
For ich, I tried the natural approach (cleaner shrimp, vitamins… water change) but no success,… the UV hope to reduce free parasite, fish in main display are fine, Moorish idol killed in Hospital tank, really sad…
<Yikes... not an easy fish to keep period... and UV really only helps in early/not-so-virulent cases of ich... won't cure the problem here. Please see: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/UVFAQs.htm>
I have no room for hospital tank to let my tank go fallow for 31 days, is it ok for me to just treat the fish for 14 days in HT??
<Not really the better route to go, but may be your only choice here... just fishes in your system? Do you have enough "spare" pre-made water around to do water changes? Test kits for ammonia, nitrite?>
   I guess my question is, can the 33 gallon HT (
AquaClear 500 filter, 301 powerhead with filter, protein skimmer and heater and proper lighting.) house the following fishes for 31 days with more than 50% success?? All fish are in good health
2 X 1.25 inch regal tang
1X 3.5 inch rusty angel
1X fire goby
1X 3.5 inch crown trigger
2X clown
1X 5 inch shoal tang
1X 5.5 inch powder blue tang
pls advise.
Also, I bought the new UV because I believe that UV is better than a diatom filter for reducing parasitic ich, mainly due to 1, less moving parts , 2, more scientific 3, continuous operation is this view correct???
<Not IMO/E... a UV would be better hands down for aiding in preventing such problems... the Diatom better for aiding in eradication>
Lastly, my display is a 125 gallon tank, is 25W adequate?? And the instruction said that a flow rate of 250 GPH are able to kill protozoa , is that mean ich??
<Yes... but this will only kill free-living (in the water) stages... not the ones on the fish, developing on the substrate...>
Pls answer me ASAP!!! Thanks!!
<The types and amounts of fishes you have listed are problematic... please go to WetWebMedia.com and put each of their common name in the Google Search tool at the bottom of the homepage and read/study... For the amount of money you have invested in livestock and gear, there is no reason you have not found room for a quarantine system, that now could/would be utilized as a treatment tank. I would get and use one post-haste... Your system has an entrenched Cryptocaryon infestation that the UV will not solve... Treating the main tank will only lead to more troubles than you currently have. Please read here:
  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm and the linked (at top, in blue) FAQs files beyond... formulate a plan, get the treatment tank going, move and treat your fishes there. Bob Fenner>
NEWBIE
Eric