Re: More a story than a question (DSBs and Ick) ( For Bob F. )  7/12/07
Thanks Mr. Fenner :
There's good Karma in re-reading TCMA and receiving an e-response from his truly, in the same week. I'd like to clear up a few points from my previous thread ( below ), some of which are embarrassing given my experience and knowledge of this confounding hobby :
- The ichus-cryptus was most likely _not_ in the system - it ran ich-free for more than three years. I inspect my Regal Tang daily ( the ich-Canary in the reef mine ) - with the oh-so-original name of "Dory" - after my nightmarish first run-in with ich back in 2004. I can say with confidence that the ich just wasn't there.
<Okay... then whence forth?>
- The new Yellow Tang came from a chain Pet Store, whose name shall remain unspoken but rhymes with "Let Go."
<Oh, Pet, with a harsh kappa sound ahead...>
The tang I bought had no visible signs of ich when bought, but other fish in the same system - all tanks are plumbed together, with no copper or UV - had obvious ich-ness. The nice but recently post-pubescent LetGo worker answered my many questions about quarantine, salinity, temp and prophylactic-medication questions with , "oh, I don't know, but those are cool questions. What's ich - hold on, dude, my cell phone is ringing."
<Heeeeee!>
The tang was on sale, it looked abnormally healthy relative to peers in said system, so buy it I did.
- I quarantined it for 15 days, 6 hours. I ran it through hypo-salinity ( .017 ) and temps of ~86F. You know the results - I think a salinity of .009 would have been better, and yes, I know 21 days should be a minimum, 30 a better amount of time. Why did I cut it short? To quote Mr. W's Attorney General - "I don't recall."
<A passable answer/response in our times it seems...>
It's been two weeks since I removed said DSB. The fish are spot-free and as healthy as I've ever seen them. The Yellow Tang nibbles on everything green and hairy it sees. I inspect all fish three times a day, and if need be I'll catch them all and re-re-re-quarantine and medicate them.
I think I simply got lucky with the DSB removal. I would never recommend this method to anyone, especially those who have never dealt with ich and its frustrating back-from-the-dead life cycle. I do intend to put back some kind of substrate in the future, but only after I am absolutely confident of the ich being really, really gone, say in two or three month's time.
<I do know of real instances, writers who endorse siphoning bottoms... does/can work>
When can I expect to purchase yours and Mr. Calfo's next installment in the "Natural Marine Aquarium Series" ?
<I wish... maybe next year... if JasonC resurrects our drafts, does the lay-outs...>
Regards,
SLC
The "Ichenator" ( "That's not a Trophont Tumor !!!" )
<Say, would you like to run for governor? BobF>

- Treating Ich -
Howdy Fishy Friends,
<Greetings, JasonC here...>
This is in regards to my 75 gallon reef.  I will give you a little background on the system.  It has been up and running since October 2002. <Ok.>
About 3-4 weeks ago we switched two four strip damsels and one yellowtail damsel out for three TR Common Clown's, A Firefish, and A Royal Gamma.  Other inhabitants include, 3 Mushroom corals, 1 Anemone, 1 fan worm, 1 Arrow Crab, 1 Choc. Chip Starfish, about 20 assorted snails, about five blue-legged hermit crabs.  Water change about every other week, approx. 12 gallons.  Eheim filter, and a large protein skimmer about a cup a week at the most and a wave maker.  The fish are feed Formula one and two with flake brine shrimp. pH-8.2 to 8.4, Nitrite, Nitrate, and Ammonia all zero.  
About a week ago we added an Algae Blenny.  Last night I noticed about 10 white spots on the Royal Gamma,  I immediately setup our 29 gallon hosp. tank with lots of aeration and performed a 10 min freshwater dip on the Royal Gamma.  I then checked the other fish, Two of the clowns appeared to have one or two white spots, so they too were removed to the hosp. tank after a freshwater dip  I began treatment with quick cure.  I believe the algae blenny is the main cause of this outbreak because the LFS I bought him from has had problems in the past with ick.  I normally don't buy from them but my trustworthy dealer could not get the algae blenny for a month, due to excessive algae growth I really wanted to get him. <This is hardly your dealer's fault. It's a very safe assumption that all fish coming in to stores have parasites... and by not putting the fish through quarantine before adding them to your main system, you pretty much guarantee parasitic problems throughout the display. More reading for you on this here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm >
Before last night everything was great fish where all happy and appeared to be eating well.  I then decided to move the algae blenny to the hosp. tank.  Due to the coloring of the blenny it is very difficult to see if ick is present.  I also added a lg. piece of LR with lots of algae and also added some crushed coral from the main tank for additional food for him.  Is this going to be enough food to sustain him or can I use algae sheets? <Well, if you are treating with Quick Cure in this hospital tank, the rock will absorb the chemicals necessary for a strong dose, which means you won't be treating anything and killing the rock at the same time. Much better to try and supplement the blenny's food a different way and run the hospital tank either bare, or with some 'furniture' made from PVC fittings which won't absorb the copper and formalin.>
Currently we have no filtration on the hosp. tank, I have a bio wheel but carbon is present with the cartridges and wheels.  So should I use this? <Take out the wheel then - the carbon will absorb the active ingredients in the Quick Cure. Pretty much, once you are in the situation of having to treat these types of chemicals in a hospital tank, you will not be able to establish a biological filter and you will instead have to resort to large, frequent water changes in that tank - perhaps 25% a day or 50% every other day.> Also I have an extra protein skimmer should this be used on the hosp. tank? <No - rely on the water changes to keep the bioload and dissolved wastes to a minimum.> I have read that protein skimmers and carbon take out the medication, is this true? <Yes, but more so with the carbon.>
This morning I looked at all fish in the hosp. tank and none appear to have white spots.  So I don't know if it is gone, dormant, or if I were seeing things last night? <Parasites live in cycles - the spots that you see are typically not the actual parasite but an indication of irritation, and nine times out of ten the parasite has dropped off to reproduce. When it comes back, it will present itself in 100 to 1000 fold the original numbers.> Should I still treat them with the medicine and freshwater dips? <Absolutely.> If so how often should I do freshwater dips? <Unless the problem is severe, I would hold off on the dips and rely instead on the Quick Cure, although is this is really Ich, you'd be better off with a true copper medication - Quick Cure also has formalin in it which is pretty nasty stuff.> I thought if there are no more signs of ick in a week, I thought about putting them back in the tank, or should I wait the full two weeks. <For a copper treatment to be effective, it must continue for 14 days... after that point you can probably be safe with a final freshwater dip and re-addition to the main tank.> I have a copper testing kit, so that won't be a problem. <It's not even really important unless you want to make sure you are treating with the appropriate amount.>
I also went out and purchased a Lysmata Shrimp thanks to your website), however my dealer had no Gobiosoma. <If you do get one of these, please do quarantine it before putting it in the main display.> I added the shrimp to the main tank to help prevent any ick on the one clown and Firefish. <Sounds good.>
I also read on your site to leave the main tank with no fish inhabitants for a month, to prevent any additional break outs. <Longer is actually better if you can manage it - six weeks is ideal.> I have another 10 gallon tank plus the 29 gallon tank I can use to put the fish in for a month.  My ick problem does not seem to be so severe to do this, what is your opinion? <Well, if there are still fish in the main tank, then keep them under close observation while the other fishes are being treated... if the fish in the main tank become infected, use this as an indicator for what you might do next.>
Thanks a lot,
Happy Swimming Annette
PS: Sorry guys I forgot some stuff, I increased the temp to 80-82 degrees in the hosp. tank and lowered the Salt level to 1.020 to 1.018, also I just moved the other clown to the hosp. tank, looks like he may have some too. <Good plan on the temperature and salinity change. Sounds like you might want to consider running that main tank fallow for a while.
Cheers, J -- > 

Ich, Ich, And More Ich!
Hey Crew...What a great web site. Always very informative! Please help.
<Will do my best-you've got Scott F. today!>
I have just upgraded from a 30 gal high to a 46 gal bow front. The 46 has been set up now right at 6 weeks. From the 30 I brought a yellow tang and Picasso Trigger and Tomatoe Clown which have been part of the family  for about 5 years. They eat all the time and are very happy when I come home from work. Since they moved to there new home the Trigger has seemed to hide a lot and seems to have the blahs. I understand this may just be normal adjustment or behavior.
<Yep- they can be big babies! In time, he'll overcome his apparent shyness!>
Now here is the real problem. I purchased a small Purple Tang last week that developed ich within 2 days. Now it has spread to my Yellow Tang and Picasso. I was told to raise the temp and salinity which I did last night.
<Raising the salinity? Yikes! You mean, lowering the salinity (i.e.' "hyposalinity")-right? Just making sure. Raising the salinity could be quite problematic>
Is this all YOU can do and hope for the best? I have been doing salt water tanks since 1989 and have only had this problem one time before. I have had a lot of experience but not with ich. Please HELP! Thanks  Randy S Auburn, AL
<Well, Randy, I think that the best course of action when fighting ich is, unfortunately, the least enjoyable method: Remove all the fishes into a separate tank for treatment with a commercial copper sulphate product, per manufacturer's instructions, and let the main system run fallow, without fishes, for at least a month. This will help disrupt the life cycle of the parasites that remain in the system by depriving them of their hosts, the fishes. You can do it, and it will work for you! Also, be sure to quarantine all new arrivals a minimum of 3 weeks before adding them to the main tank. Finally, I hope that larger quarters are in the future for everyone? That's a fairly substantial bioload of potentially large fish in a relatively small tank. For long-term health, a much larger tank is the best way to go... Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>                 

Staying The Course (Finishing Disease Treatment)
Hi crew,
<Scott F. your Crew Member today!>
I have a 220g FOWLR system where the fish got ich.  Moved the 6 of them to a 33g medicine tank, they have been in there for 3 weeks with copper.
<Good procedure>
I know you suggest 6 weeks for main tank to go fallow, but the fish seem quite healthy - I guess the issue is the ich parasites are in the main tank though.  Am I playing with fire if I put them in now??
<I'd have to say yes...You've done a great job in curing your fishes, and you went through all of the trouble to get them out of the display tank for treatment- please don't stop now...Give it the full month- to-month-and-a-half of fallow time...>
When I do put them back, should I introduce one fish per day to reduce stress??
<I'd reintroduce them all at once, myself, but you are more comfortable, you can certainly do it gradually>
Do I need to give them a fresh water bath??
<Generally, there is no need to freshwater dip the fishes prior to reintroduction...As you are aware, the purpose of a freshwater dip is to help assist in removing parasites from the fishes' skin (parasites can't handle the osmotic shock of a FW dip like the fishes can), so if you are still concerned about parasites, you may want to leave them in the treatment tank for a while longer...>
Thanks. Joe
<My pleasure, Joe...Keep up the good work! You're almost home free. Just be patient! Regards, Scott F>

The Perfect Cure For Ich?
Hi,
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
I've been reading through your website for several weeks now and want to thank you for all the great info you've made available!  The guys at my LFS have been telling me that there is no way to 100% remove ich from a display tank aside from tearing it down, cleaning it and starting over.
<Yep- that's about right!>
They say that even if the tank is allowed to go fallow for several weeks there will still be some small amount of the parasite remaining.  They suggest that the quality of the water and the overall strong health of the fish will keep ich from becoming a real problem.
<I agree! As a big proponent of the "fallow tank" treatment, I always temper this advice with the caveat that no treatment is 100% successful at eradicating this scourge from your tank. The object of the fallow tank is to encourage the parasite population to crash for lack of hosts. There are always a few parasites that will linger in the substrate, or elsewhere in the system, in a "dormant" mode- waiting for the right situation to arise before striking again. The thought process here is that the parasite population will be reduced to a level that otherwise healthy fish should be able to fight off>
For instance, if you introduce a new fish it may show some signs of ich after a bit but if it is vibrant and healthy in the first place it will beat the ich much like a generally healthy person
will beat a cold.  We humans are surrounded by germs, diseases and parasites everyday with out getting sick.  It is only when we let ourselves get tired, stressed out and rundown (i.e.. live in an unhealthy environment) that these diseases have a chance to act on our system.  Is there any truth to this?
<I agree, for the most part. One of the reasons that I harp on utilizing quarantine before introducing new fishes to the display tank is because I feel that many disease symptoms don't manifest themselves for several days, or even weeks. It is really important to keep the environment stable, and your fishes well fed, for the very reasons that you mention. However, there are times when fishes cannot simply "shrug off" the infection, and medical intervention becomes necessary. The bottom line is, quarantine your new fishes religiously, keep environmental parameters consistent, and feed a variety of quality foods regularly. Couple that with careful observation, and you can't do much better than that>
Thanks for your time! Bryan
<Any time, Bryan! Sounds like your dealer has some good quality advice to give you...And a knowledgeable dealer is a great ally in your hobby. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Ich Cures?
Which one of those would you recommend against Ich?
Kent Marine seems to be pepper based and claims to eradicate all 3 stages, but need to use Kent Poly-Ox with it (not sure what it is, but I've heard it's dangerous). Ruby-Ick reads that it will only go after the free swimming stage of Amyloodinium, so I'm not sure if it will cure the one already present on fish. Both of them seem to be safe with bio filtration and invertebrates and seem much safer than copper. What is your opinion on this?
<Well, since you asked...In my opinion, it's best not to treat in the display tank at all. I am an old-fashioned fish nerd that agrees with the tried-and-true methods in this case. How can a "cure" simply target the specific parasite without damaging benevolent creatures of similar biological composition? Too risky, if you ask me. I'd remove the fishes (all of 'em) to a separate treatment tank, use a commercial copper sulphate or formalin preparation in the treatment tank (copper WILL kill inverts!), and let the display run "fallow", without fishes, for at least a month, conducting regular water changes and maintenance in the tank during this time. After a month or so without fish, the vast majority of the parasites will "crash" for lack of suitable hosts. This is not a fun procedure, it's not easy- and it's not even a 100% guaranteed cure (none are!), but it has a high success rate, because it attacks the disease by breaking  the parasite's life cycle. And it won't put any undesirable substances in the display...A good trade-off, if you ask me! Good Luck! Regards, Scott F>
Will copper kill crabs, snails and cleaner shrimp?
<<Of a certainty, yes. Bob F>>
Thank you.

Ich? on Yellow Boxfish
<Hello! Ananda here tonight>
We have had our boxfish in our tank for about a month.  He has been very healthy with no signs of disease until today when we noticed about 30 or more white dots all over his body.  We suspect ich, but the dots do not seem to be clustered around his fins....yet?  He is still eating, breathing and swimming as usual.  
<Those are good signs.>
We know not to treat him with copper since he is a scaleless fish, and we know he secretes a toxin, which could kill everything in our tank, when he becomes stressed.  
<Yup.>
Our concern is will he release this toxin if we try to remove him from the tank to do freshwater dips?  Should we do freshwater dips?  
<Yes, it's possible that your cowfish might release toxins if the freshwater dip stresses it sufficiently. You can minimize the stress of a freshwater dip by ensuring that the dip temperature and pH exactly match that of the display tank, and by aerating the dip tank. However, some people prefer to save freshwater dips as a last resort for these fish.>
Is there any other way to treat this fish?  We have already started to raise the temperature to 80 degrees and are starting to lower the salinity as well.  
<You've already started on the primary treatment: lower salinity and higher temperatures. These would be best carried out in a bare-bottomed hospital tank, along with daily water changes, siphoning from the bottom of the tank to get the greatest number of ich cysts. I've read that people with cowfish are more likely to use UV sterilizers -- which are good only against the free-swimming stage of the parasite, mind you -- to help combat ich. Another favorite of the crew on the Cowfish, Puffers, & More discussion group seems to be StopParasite. I have no experience with that particular product, so I suggest you check the Cowfish etc. discussion group for peoples' opinions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CowfishPuffers_andMore/ >
Is it possible that this is something other than ich?  His tankmates are a Foxface, a damsel, a Kole tang and a couple of snails.  Thanks for any advice you can give.
<More on Boxfishes here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/boxfshfaqs.htm ... --Ananda>

Ick Problems
Hello, Let me apologize in advance for the length of this e-mail.
<And I apologize for the long answer!>
I have a serious problem of ick. I have a 125 gallon fish only tank w/ live rock. I have 3 yellow tangs, 1 mandarin goby, 1 snowflake eel, 1 banded moray, (I know the eels are predators, only temp pets) two coral banded shrimp, a cleaner shrimp, 2 serpent stars, 4 brittle stars, a two band anemone fish clown fish, a white anemone w/ purple tips, two banded cat shark eggs (again only temp pets, I know they will get big) <that they will>, and some blue leg hermit crabs.
<First, run thorough water tests (pH, ammonia, nitrite, check water temp, salinity, everything you can think of and make sure nothing is out of whack. If you do not remove the causative factor of the stress your fish are under, you'll be hard pressed to fix them up. Try to think of anything that could be stressing them out, maybe bullying, who knows>
My 3 tangs and clown fish have ick, pretty bad too. I am new to saltwater and hope to fix this problem correctly. I asked my local fish store and they just suggested a chemical to put in the water,
<Eh, they've likely suggested one of the various "reef safe" ich meds on the market which, at least in my experience, rarely work, and even so on only the lightest infestations. If they have recommended copper, malachite green, Formalin, etc, please don't use them as you will lose all the invertebrate life in your live rock.>
I truly believe that there is a better way to do this <me too!> that's why I'm writing.
I did some research on your site and found tons of help. Now for the fun part of me asking some questions. This is what I have in mind to do: I was going to buy a 40 something gallon garbage can, I have a strong power head now, I was going to take some water out of my tank put it in the garbage can, use the power head for circulation and air, put all the fish in there (except the eels, they are being traded in this weekend) do I need to put the shark eggs, live rock, shrimp, star fish, and anemone in there to or just the fish?
<If you plan on doing the garbage can thing, make sure you have a heater in it, as well as some type of bio-filter (preferably also a protein skimmer). A big power head will keep the water moving but make sure that the fish are not going to be blown around. Provide cover for them with NON-LIVING rocks, such as tufa rock. Just the fish go in here, don't worry about the eggs.>
After the fish get in the garbage can I was going to raise the tank temp to 82 and lower the salt to .10, is that the right thing to do? For how long?
<No, simply let the tank go without fish for at least a month and it should be safe to add the fish back. It may not be necessary to remove all the fish to the barrel, remove the blatantly sick ones and any that you suspect may come down with it next. You can always remove one that gets sick later to the barrel.>
How long will the fish need to stay in the garbage can, what kind of med, or treatment do I give them once in the can?
<Keep them in there until the disease has been gone completely for a few weeks, preferably a month. Guidelines for treatment can be found here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marparasitcurefaqs.htm>
I am like I said new to this and would like to take the time to do it right. Will they be o.k. in a garbage can, what about a heater won't that melt through the plastic?
<Buy one that you can get a heater guard for (plastic heater "cage"), Tronic heaters come to mind.>
Will this ick get off the fish, will it leave the tank?
<Unfortunately ick can spring up just about any time if there is stress on the fish>
I need some serious step by step help, I would greatly appreciate it guys.
<Check out all the links on http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marparasitcurefaqs.htm, you'll find a wealth of info!>
Again sorry for the length, hope you will help me out of this pickle.
<Good luck, and make sure you test your quarantine barrel frequently so they are not inadvertently killed by rising ammonia/nitrite levels or a falling pH . -Kevin>

Can you help with ich?
Hope this the right address for Q&A!!!
Hello,
<Hi Vicki>
I have recently discovered what appears to be ich in my 75 g tank (on a Sohal, porcupine, and Klunzinger Wrasse). I tried removing them to a 10 g. quarantine tank treated with Coppersafe (I followed instructions EXACTLY!). My fish were fine for about a day...then WHAM, they all started breathing rapidly, sitting at the bottom of the tank, and looking generally awful. My wrasse was on his last fin, when I decided to get them back into the main tank. All have regained their vigor, but also retained their ich.
<A 10 gallon QT is a little tight for these guys, depending on their size....>
What am I doing wrong?! I already tried Sea Cure Copper for ich on a dwarf angel--same results:(. Again, I was meticulous following those directions! My water tests fine for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. I am afraid of copper now, and am feeding anti-parasite food/doing freshwater dips to keep the ich at bay. Have also added a UV sterilizer for future problems. I think I'm getting ich-obsessed. Please help me--I don't want to lose another fish! Vicki
<Alright Vicki, you need the copper and more importantly, you need the test kit for the copper you have. PLEASE go to WetWebMedia.com to the copper FAQs http://www.wetwebmedia.com/coppertestfaqs.htm ands read the faq's about the types of tests and the copper they test for.
Maintain the free cupric ion at 0.25 for two weeks and test daily.
DON'T overdose!!!!! I bet you have too much copper. There are a ton of links and FAQs on copper at WetWebMedia. The tests can be had from most of the WetWeb commercial sponsors. Craig>

Copper/Disease Treatment
I have another question. I recently removed all my fish from my main tank into (potential) treatment tanks. I did this because my blue tang had white spots and was scratching. My flame angel and coral beauty also had white spots. I had been attempting to treat with Kent Marine's exp (I know, I've read your opinions on this, but I was desperate until I got the tanks set-up and had time to remove them and live rock). The fish did well for several days, but then the flame wasn't eating. By the time I got them transferred the flame angel was in bad shape, and died shortly after. The other fish have now cleared up and don't have spots. They are in bare bottomed tanks, but I have not yet added copper as they seem to have improved. I assumed I was dealing with ick, but I'm now not quite sure. I was going to leave the fish in their current holding tanks for 4 weeks to allow the main tank to go fallow, but they definitely do not seem to like them, especially the yellow "Coris" wrasse who is constantly searching the bottom at night for a place to bury himself. Any suggestions as to my next course of action? Sorry for the length, and thank you ahead of time. Rich.
<Yep, would treat w/copper as per WetWebMedia.com quarantine/copper info. Give the Wrasse some plastic pipe, some plastic plants and the like to hide in and feel comfortable. They don't have to be totally bare, just inert. I wouldn't trust that whatever it is is necessarily under control, although the freshwater might temporarily help and then have a population explosion. Could be velvet or ick. Treat both w/copper. Follow the WetWebMedia copper info. Craig> 

Ich, copper, and frustration
Dear Mr. Fenner,
I am an avid reader of your books and FAQS, and yet have never had the need to ask you a direct question, as most of the time I get a response from your previous answers.
<Am glad you find such records useful.>
Nevertheless right now I am having a problem with my 90 gallon fish only tank. For about 2 years I had it stocked only with a Naso Tang, a small jeweled eel, a leopard snake eel and a big eye Popeye (squirrel). I have a modified Seaclone and just two weeks ago bought a Sanders 50 ozonizer. Everything was going great until I decided to add a lovable but ich-magnet spotted puffer. I don't have a QT tank, but at least I dipped him before putting into my tank. Sure enough after a couple of days, ich started to appear on the puffer, and then the Naso showed some scratchy symptoms. I added Coppersafe as per the instructions, and removed all carbon, stopped skimming and ozonizng. Also, I have FW dipped all the fish 4 times in 6 days. All the fish seem to be doing better, except for the Naso who it seems to me doesn't handle the dips too well (always gets discolored and lethargic after them).
Today I noticed that the Naso had an apparently inflamed eye (copper poisoning?)
<Possibly... and/or (more likely) irritation from being netted for dipping>
and don't know if I should re-install the carbon and turn on the ozone and skimmer. 
<Leave the copper treatment for a good two weeks... the ich is in a collective resting stage... will come back if you truncate the period. Also, you don't mention lowering spg, elevating temperature as part of your treatment protocol... and I do hope/trust you are using test kits for free cupric ion... it's strange your eels aren't exhibiting odd behavior if you have therapeutic copper levels>
I do not see much ich on the fish, but I am afraid that the dips and copper might do the Naso in. I have been using copper for 5 days, but cannot test it as my copper test is for copper sulfate and does not seem to register the Coppersafe chelated type.
<Ahhh, there are chelated-copper type test kits>
Since I live in Costa Rica, there really isn't too many places from where to buy supplies and so I would have to order them on-line and the proper kit would not get in time.
<There are a couple of shops in San Jose you might check>
What do you suggest? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards, Harold Chamberlain
<Other than the above... of course quarantine of incoming livestock... Bob Fenner> 

Ich issue
After reading all your excellent posts I have begun to question my long-time friend/saltwater store owner. He is strongly suggesting a "wait a few days and see" approach as I would prefer some kind of immediate action.
I have 65 gal. and 30 gal. fish only tanks. The 30 has been going strong for several years. The 65 is only 1 1/2 months old. This past weekend we decided to purchase some fish to go in the new (65) before we migrate the 30 gal. guys over to the new. My wife and daughter picked out a Koran angel, powder blue and Sailfin to start with the 6 cycle damsels. They had been in for 2 days when I noticed some dusty spots and light marks on the angel. Today I came home to find the powder covered with white specks. The Sailfin has no signs of issues (yet) and the Angel does not have the same small spots as the powder blue. All are eating well and my local fish friend recommended raising the temp to 86 along with leaving 1 light on 24/7 and wait a couple of days and see how it looks.
My water conditions are ideal and I have a wet/dry, 25 watt UV, chiller and protein skimmer. Should I go ahead and drop the SG to 1.017 at this point or wait the 2 days out with the temp increase? You have probably answered this one several times but I am desperate to keep my daughters fish alive. I am somewhat hesitant about the freshwater dipping and medication without trying any basic measures.
Please advise. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
<The most basic and effective thing that you can do is invest in a quarantine tank. Remove the fishes to a separate system and treat them for two weeks with a copper-based ich treatment, using test kits for free copper levels and ammonia. Lower the specific gravity in your main system (to about 1.017), keeping the temperature around 84F and let the whole system go fallow (w/o fishes) for at least a month (two is better).
For more info on treating your fish please check out the links below.
http://wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm
http://wetwebmedia.com/marparasitcurefaqs.htm
With proper treatment your fish should prevail, Good luck, Gage>
65 gal.
Koran angel
Sailfin tang
Powder blue tang
6 damsels
A=0
Nitri=0
Nitra=15
SG= 1.024
PH 8.4
original temp= 80
Thanks, Jonathan Moore

Temperature in Relation to Cryptocaryon Treatment
Does raising the temperature during copper treatment for subject disease hasten treatment
<Increased temperature does in fact speed up the lifecycle of the parasite and is generally effective in quickening the cure.>
and if so, to what temperature for a fish only tank would you recommend excluding quarantine?
<Based on your last statement, "excluding quarantine", I take it you have decided to copper your main display tank vs. isolating the diseased fish into a proper hospital tank. That is an absolutely horrible idea, but regardless, I would aim for 82*F.>
Thank you, Stephen Pace
<Good luck! -Steven Pro>

ICH Treatment-Temperature
<Hi Stephen, >
Does raising the temperature during Copper Treatment for subject disease hasten treatment and if so, to what temperature for a fish only tank would you recommend excluding quarantine? Thank You, Stephen Pace
<Raising the temp to 83F will hasten the life cycle of the parasite, not shorten the length of treatment. This is usually done in a QT accelerating the free swimming stage where it can be treated with copper. This is during treatment only and the temp should be slowly lowered back to a normal range over several days afterward. I recommend treatment in a QT. Please visit WWM for more on disease, ick, temperature and salinity manipulation in the treatment/QT tank. Hope this helps, Craig>

Fallow tank question
Hi, all...
<Scott F. with you this evening>
I had a bad outbreak of ich due to a variety of reasons several months back, and lost all fish in a reef tank. <yuck>
I corrected what I think were the problems, but left the tank fallow only for 2 weeks before repopulating with a couple of fish (I'm *trying* to learn patience in this life :)).
<It IS a virtue, they say!>
Too soon, so I had another outbreak that killed the fish again. Or so I thought.
It's now been 4 weeks fallow, and I'm waiting another week before introducing any new fish (which are currently quarantined). The tank seems healthy (the corals are growing and thriving, but they seem lonely :)). However, I noticed that the last bout did *not* kill all the fish - I have a tiny goby that I bought in combination with a pistol shrimp during the repopulation a month back. For the first time in weeks, he poked his head out while I was looking, and he seems fine. There is *no* way to get him out of the tank without completely ripping the tank apart, which is not something I'm willing to do at this point. Is this a setback to the "fallow" program? 
<Well, honestly-yes- sigh>
He's obviously resistant to ich - would he still be a "carrier"? 
<Certainly a possibility>
What are my options?
< A really tough call here-prudence would dictate that you remove the goby, too-but...You may just want to wait a few more weeks to see if the ich manifests itself on this fish. Maybe try some biological cleaners, such as shrimps; reintroduce your fish and hope forth best. It's a risk either way-you just have to make the call that serves "the greater good">
( After close to 5 weeks, I'm looking forward to getting fish back into the tank. Arthur
<You've done a great job being patient-keep up the good work>

Ich Treatment
Dear Bob,
<Anthony Calfo in your service while Bob tours Australia. Last I heard... he was spotted on one of OZ's beautiful nude beaches. Rest assured though... Bob is too discreet to sun soak in the nude. Instead he opted for a lovely, Teal colored, thong bikini. He almost got in trouble for it too... the Department of Agriculture thought he was smuggling plums but then realized their mistake with some embarrassment.>
I have a 5 month old 105 gallon fish only system that has developed Ich, the purple tang being the main recipient. I have used Kent RPX for two weeks followed by 5 doses of Quick Cure and the infestation is still alive. 
<It sounds like you treated the main display and if that was the case, the medications were rendered seriously ineffective by the calcareous media in the tank (any gravel, sand, rocks, shells, coral, etc... they soak up the meds). The directions for such medication do or should say to medicate in an isolation tank>
I am now attempting to lower the salinity to 1.015 in an attempt to affect a cure. What is the best approach in a fish only system?
<low salinity helps but almost certainly will not cure alone. I would advise removing the fish to a bare bottomed QT tank and retreat with the quick cure. Freshwater dips and possibly low QT salinity will help as well. Do research the archives on these topics. A lot of good questions, answers and articles (Quarantine, Ich treatments, etc)>
Thanks, Joe
<good luck, my friend>

Siphoning Cryptocaryon/parasites technique question
Hi Bob,
I like this method a lot!
<... In a bare bottomed aquarium, common Ich can be cured simply by siphoning the tomites/larvae off of the bottom for eight consecutive days.
Ich cure that simple>
My question is: Can this method be used in the main tank? 
<Not to effect an actual cure... The stated approach is merely a "percentage game" of removing some resting stages... it won't get them all>
If I were to siphon the larvae using the draw of my HOT Magnum filter, are they so small that they would just go right through and back into the tank? If stuffed
with cotton, would that catch 'em?
<Yes to going through these filter media... You might use a Diatom (tm) filter and earth...>
I already took out the carbon so that the copper and follow up antibiotics would go to work. Also, my crushed coral substrate is so old that it was to be replaced soon anyway, 1/3 at a time, as you recommend.
Finally, do copper bonding agents like Cop-a-way really work in your opinion, rendering them unabsorbable by non-fish livestock (if I ever decide to go that route)?
<Yes, do work>
Thanks for your patience and wisdom, Jonathan, Los Angeles
<And you for yours. Bob Fenner>

Powder blue tang issues
Hello,
<Hi there>
I had a powder blue in a QT for almost five weeks with no problems at all. Three days ago my QT UV sterilizer broke. Yesterday my powder blue woke up with a mild case of ich. 
<Yikes, typical>
There are 6 cleaner gobies in the QT, and they are doing their job. I gradually dropped the salinity to 1.018 and raised the temp to 80F. I am aware of the benefits of the fresh water dips, and used them many times. 
<Mmm, did you this time?>
The problem with this powder blue is that he is extremely shy and neurotic.
<Also not unusual>
I am not sure what might stress him more - fresh water dips or the sight of a net (or a plastic container, or a hand to get him to the dip). Considering his fear factor, should I still try the dips, or wait and see how he will turn out tomorrow? Thank you.
<I would have dipped/bathed the fish on its way into the quarantine system... Now...? I might wait another day or two... try adding vitamins to the food, water... Bob Fenner>

Ick (Aaargh!!!!)
Hello-
<Cheers, Anthony Calfo in your service>
I've got some kind of parasitic infestation in my 125 Gal. fish and live rock tank (no corals). I see white salt spots on bodies and fins and some fish are scratching (Majestic Angel, Cuban Hog, Harlequin Tusk). 
<large like grains of salt would indicate common Ich (crypt.) whereas fine like talc would suggest marine velvet (Oodinium)>
There is no respiratory distress or loss of appetite. The only fish that don't have spots are three that have been in this tank for 4 yrs- a Foxface, a red flame hawk, and a long nose hawk- 
<yes... common for fish that have suffered this parasite before...some immunity>
plus a recently added algae blenny.
<not yet at least>
First, I removed the live rock to a trash can with aerator, dropped SG to 1.017, raised temp to 82 degrees. 
<to be done gradually over days for fear of mitigating the condition>
Then, I lowered the SG in the 125 gal to 1.014 from 1.022 all at once, 
<not recommended although I have done it before and will do it again <G>>
and I am gradually -over several days time -raising the temp from 76 deg to 82.
<OK>
I dropped SG on Monday. It's now Friday. All of the fish seem to be tolerating low SG. All are eating and moving around the tank except for a yellow banded maroon clown. The clown has been hanging out in a cave under a rock but did come out to feed last night.
<no worries... let her pout, they are hardy>
The low SG appears to be working (spots are disappearing). I'm most concerned about the angels- the flame has cloudy eyes that are a bit popped,
<do add 1 tablespoon of Epsom salt per 5 gallons (split dose over a day or do in installments and dissolve in seawater first)... this is aimed to relieve the exophthalmia (Popeye)>
and head shaking behavior, and the Majestic looks great but also has head shaking. Also last week the majestic excreted a long stringy mess. Didn't look good.
<you have indicated three different things... a possible bacterial infection (Popeye), spots and head shaking (Ich) and now stringy white feces (internal parasites perhaps>
Stephen Spotte lists head shaking as one of the clinical signs of Amyloodinium disease. 
<it is a VERY general symptom of gill irritation which could be from Ich, Oodinium, gill flukes, nitrogen poisoning and so many other things>
Spotte says that Amyloodinium is persistent and fishes can never recover totally, and there will be another out break at a later time. 
<only true in the sense that we are al carrying potentially pathogenic organisms at all times that can be expressed with stress. Your chances of getting or keeping a sterile fish or even Oodinium free are as unrealistic as your own digestive tract being sterile or so-called "disease free". Have no fears. Good husbandry will carry fish many years! (Nancy aquarium in France, case in point: numerous fishes over twenty and even 30 years old!!! (incl Perc clowns) with basic sponge filtration. If you keep and use a quarantine tank ( I suspect you didn't for these new fish which is why you have an outbreak in part) you'll find that you can easily temper the impact of such pathogens. Not cure forever... but easily temper. It is standard and necessary protocol for responsible aquarium keeping>
His advice is to destroy everything, sterilize the tank and start over. I'm not going to do that. 
<keep in mind that you are citing a reference that is likely over 15 years old (copyright). Perhaps more. Spotte is a great scientist... but times and knowledge have evolved!>
I've read that Cryptocaryon disease is not a as deadly. 
<agreed>
Does Cryptocaryon also infect the gills and cause head shaking?
<yes>
Spotte lists respiratory distress as a clinical sign of Crypto but not head shaking.
<again... cannot be taken so literally... simply gill distress>
I have never used copper even though I have a bottle of Cupramine- I keep reading the directions and reading Spotte, Moe, Tullock, and Fenner (of course). If I use the copper I will use it in the exhibit aquarium, pull it out with PolyFilters after treatment, discard the dead coral rock decor, and return the live rock to the main tank. 
< I would advise you to simply use a proper QT tank and let the tank simply run fallow for the QT duration (4 weeks)>
I will not use a separate treatment tank. (The exhibit aquarium is in my restaurant and I want to keep the fish in it.) 
<then it will be done at the increased risk of their mortality. I do not fault you for it... they are your charges/responsibility. But know that you are taking the long way around the barn! Medicating a tank with calcareous substrate that will absorb copper like a sponge means that you will be dosing and testing for copper levels at least twice a day each for about 21 days. Not at all practical>
OR I may pull the angels out of the exhibit tank, place them in quarantine, and possibly treat only the angels with copper.
<yes, my friend... this would be better>
But I would prefer to continue with the low SG and after 6 days raise the SG to .017 and hold it there for another week, and then raise it to .021, hold the live rock in the trashcan for 6 weeks and then put it back in the exhibit tank.
<all good ideas... I concur>
Am I shooting myself in the foot by not using the copper? 
<for Crypt I will agree with copper use. Not much else for copper>
The fellow I buy my fish from says that if I wait too long to use the copper, then the disease will establish itself in the aquarium and I will always have problems. 
<not true>
What do you think about that head shaking? You're probably doing some head shaking yourself right about now.
<heehee... I though the web cam was turned off <G>. You are a good sport!>
Thanks for your help and thanks for putting together a great website. Sally
<I wish you the very best of luck! Kindly, Anthony Calfo>

Conscientious Marine Aquarist (ich treatments)
Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Hello>
I live in Indonesia and always have the love of diving and keeping aquarium.
My previous attempts have been only complete failure without proper understanding of water quality. I really hate to see any one of my stock die.
<Me too>
Thank you for your lovely book of Conscientious Marine Aquarist which I really learned a lot and enjoy reading it.
My newly assembled tank finally started to show some promise.
<Ah, good>
Recently, both of my newly introduced Clownfishes are suffering white spot diseases. I quickly removed it and place in a quarantine tank with copper sulphate dosage. It was cured (white spot disappeared) after 4 days and I decided to put it back to the main system.
<Mmm, needs to be treated, kept isolated for two weeks>
Only 2 days after the clown fishes was put back to the main system, white spots started to reappear (not on the other 2 damsel fish).
I have anemone in my system, what should I do to clean the main system?
<Let the system "go fallow" (without fish hosts) for a good month. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm and the treatment FAQs files linked (in blue above)>
There are also other Damsel fishes, should I remove them as well?
<Yes, all fishes>
How long should I continue to keep the fish in a quarantine tank if after all white spot disappear?
<At least a month>
Do you publish any other aquarium book?
<Yes my friend. Please peruse the WetWebMedia.com site for these, and make it known if anything is unclear. Bob Fenner>
Best regards! Liao I Ching

Moray Eel/Ich
We have a moray eel in my tank, and one of our tank inhabitants came down with ich (treating with copper in our quarantine tank). Anyhow, we noticed our moray occasionally scratching the side of his head on the sand and we think he has ich in his gills as well. 
<possible>
I know they are fairly hardy and don't get infected often, 
<correct>
but what is the best treatment for the eel ? I know of the following treatments, but don't know which is best for a scratching moray:
-Formalin in q-tank - long term exposure
-Formalin/fw dips
<above two are possible with observation (and a covered lid on FW dip bucket...hehe)>
-Copper/Cupramine (I thought eels are sensitive to copper, not sure)
<very correct>
-Hyposalinity and raising temp.
<stimulating but may not effect a cure alone>
Is there a recommended treatment for moray eels, and anything that should definitely be avoided ? Thanks
<yes... Never copper or organic dyes (blue, green, etc)>
Jim
<best regards, Anthony>

Ich and Now Oodinium
Hi Steven/Bob,
I have a fish only with live rock,75G have been having problems with my first ich outbreak since I was a teenager. The trigger and Sailfin tang started with just plain ole ich. I started treating with kick ich, because I didn't want to harm the live rock. My Miniatus is very resistant, is still fairly healthy. The trigger has some ich and maybe slight Oodinium, still fairly healthy. Now the Tang has full blown Oodinium, I removed most of my live rock to another tank and started treating with Mardel CopperSafe chelated. The tang is in dire straights as of right now, but still eats and is totally coated in Oodinium, rapid breathing. I did freshwater dip him today to hopefully keep his gills somewhat clear so he doesn't suffocate, does this help with that?
<Yes, but will not effect a cure with the animal being replaced in the infested system.>
Or are the cysts protected in the gills too?
<Yes, please read through the marine parasitic disease sections posted on WetWebMedia.com>
Anyways I just wanted to say to readers out there forget the new treatments if you want to save your fish.
<Agreed... most are shameful shams... replete with misleading advertising/promotion>
Use copper if you have a fish only or fish only with live rock, remove the live rock to another tank. Or if you have a large enough quarantine tank, which I do not, especially for my 7 inch Miniatus, go that route. You may not be able to return the live rock back into the tank, if you do what I'm doing, but at least if you really have had your fish for years like I have and you love them you will give them a fighting chance before they pass their tolerance threshold. And coral skeletons replicas ain't so bad anyways for aquascaping for a fish only. I attribute my Sailfin Tang's Oodinium outbreak to my late decision of deciding to use copper. Because I was busy fiddling with less effective treatments, kick ich, rally, my Sailfin may die in a few days. Hopefully he will make it though. And why does everybody say copper harms biological filtration when the manufacturer directions for CopperSafe chelated explicitly says it does not effect biological filtration? 
<Generally not>
Are they lying or what? Will I ever be able to add live rock to this tank again? 
<Yes, assuredly. The residual and re-released copper can be safely removed via chemical filtrants>
It has no substrate by the way, just some Tufa left in there. Filtration is lifeguard fluidized, Fluval 204, AquaClear 500 and Berlin skimmer, plus 50lbs of live rock which is no longer in there. There is the Aquariums Systems copper remover product, which claims to remove chelated and free copper very efficiently with no leaching which I plan to use after treatment and PolyFilters, activated carbon and water changes. Will it be safe to add some live rock again after a few months?
<Yes>
PS Running my Berlin skimmer will not reduce the copper, right?
<Skimming does remove copper compounds>
Just checking. Other than the tougher groupers, triggers, damsels and some of the fish that are now being tank raised, I'm beginning to feel that not many other fish types should be available in this hobby anymore. I read through these posts about these fish suffering and dying over and over again. Personally I feel most of the fish that are offered out there are not good aquarium subjects and I feel bad that I heard almost 50% of fish shipped die from the shipping stress alone.
<This stated value is too high. Likely less than 10% is close>
I personally feel that in the future, I may work toward having certain species of saltwater fish in the trade banned from import with large fines involved. Moorish Idols, Regal angels, other angels, tons of misc. butterflies, mandarin fish, wild caught seahorses, orange spotted filefish, the list goes on and on. These sensitive species shouldn't be caught or sold anymore, except for maybe scientific reasons. Freshwater is a different story though, most species tend to be extremely resilient for the average educated hobbyist, but I'm sure a lot of species of them shouldn't be in the trade either. Thanks for listening and thanks for any info, Dennis
<Thank you for your valuable input. Sorry for the delay in response. Been out of the country for a while. Bob Fenner>

Re: ich III
Thank you very much for your response on both my emails both of them were very helpful. 
<very welcome>
I'm having a tough time finding someone who sells formalin. 
<several popular products have this in it... it is also available from some local pharmacies. If it is too much trouble that way, any of a number of mail order places stock it and can have it to you within 48 hours. But strategically from a mail order company near you>
A couple of friends of mine said they have had great results using copper power have you ever heard of this stuff and could that be used in my QT tank instead of formalin. 
<again... copper is very effective only on tolerant large scaled fishes (some tangs, clowns, damsels and the like) but extremely toxic to small scaled and sensitive species like Sweetlips and even Powder Blues. The Powder Blue has an awful reputation in captivity for many reasons, not the least of which is their tendency to suffer parasites easily>
I also noticed that the spots on my powder blue tang this morning are disappearing 
<very common... Ich has an extremely short life cycle (within 24 hours)... the spots commonly wax and wane>
and I have not moved him to the QT tank yet what do you make of that. 
<QT is always best>
All fish are eating very well including the 2 with ick do you think the ick on the fish is just from stress. 
<we have no way of knowing for certain>
Do you think I should wait to see if the fishes immune system can get rid of the ick on its own or move them to the QT tank right away. 
<too many fish die from such hesitation... if you are asking me for my best advice, it is a daily water change in a small QT tank with medication. With stable temperatures, good food, etc (proper QT) the fish has an extremely good chance of being cured within 2 weeks. Without it you stand to watch the pathogen possibly flare and take every other living fish out with him, or anything in between. Best regards, Anthony>
Thanks for your help.

Re: ich IV
I was reading that the temperature of the water should be under 80 degrees is this correct? Should I also remove all carbon from the filter that I'm using.
<temperature is subjective... cooler has more oxygen but favors conditions for parasites during treatment. Warmer is better is you have very good aeration/oxygenation. And yes, do remove chemical filtration like carbon during medication treatments. Regards, Anthony>

Re: ich V
I was able to buy formalin-3.  Is this good for curing the ick. 
<if it is pure formalin, yes. If not you may have to watch more closely or lighten the dose dependant on what/if the combination drug is>
I set up my quarantine tank the pH, temperature and specific gravity are identical to my main tank. Do I need to drip the fish or just move him right into the QT tank.
<a brief acclimation of 15 minutes is recommended. Anthony>

Re: ich VI
Do you think it is necessary to do fresh water dips everyday or would the QT tank be enough. 
<daily freshwater dips are extremely effective and recommended for most fish. 5-8 consecutive rids most large external parasites like common Ich>
I would think the fresh water dips would put a lot of added stress on an already sick fish. 
<nope... if done properly, it is less stressful than chemotherapy like a 21 day copper treatment. Bona fide academics have run tests to this effect. FW dips are stressful, but not as stressful as parasites chewing up their gills...hehe>
I'm currently using a 10 gallon QT tank and using formalin 3 as the medication each teaspoon treats 10 gallons of water with 10mg/l of formaldehyde its says I can double the dose but I have only used I dose can you give me an opinion on this thanks always.
<as I mentioned before, I have no direct experience with this product. the double dose is likely fine with large scaled fishes, but I would resist with weak or known sensitive fishes like scaleless species. Anthony>

Naso Relapse...
Anthony,
I have a feeling I'm going to wear out my welcome, 
<no worries, my friend>
but unfortunately I am in need of some advice yet again. I used the search option on your web page but could find very little info about my new problem. If you remember we have been going back and forth about my blonde Naso, which became ill over the weekend. Well since the transport into a QT, and subsequent treatment with Greenex which started on Monday, his ich cleared up, his appetite increased and the gilling ceased. In fact he was looking very good, up until last night. The ich has come back, which isn't a big problem I was expecting that. 
<indeed>
The new problem is that the poor guy now has cloudy eyes. To be exact it looks like there is a kind of film which has coated the eye. Also he refused food, both last night and this morning. 
<secondary infection or response to the aggressive Greenex treatment>
I searched on WetWebMedia.com for any articles relating to this. Really all I found were articles relating to exophthalmia, which he definitely doesn't have. There is zero swelling around the eyes.
<agreed>
I set up the quarantine tank using water from the main display. So my thinking is that whatever was in the main display, to cause his sickness in the first place, is still there making him sick. 
<the water was appropriate... the fish is immuno-compromised and brought it in on his, er... person>
I was hoping that treatment would help this. Could this be a side infection, initiated by the ich weakening his immune system? 
<either or both>
Is this yet another type of protozoan infection? Is there anything I can do, outside of a quick water change, to aide him? Should I do anything?
<I still rank freshwater dips above all including Greenex>
I realize this is a lot of questions. But since I'm not out of the woods yet, I was hoping you could help point the way.
<no trouble... a common problem. Naso may still be quite fine in a week. Easy on that Greenex please. It is cure or kill.>
Thank you, Michael Mariani
<best regards, Anthony>

Maroon Clown fish with Ich?
Bob,
<<JasonC here filling in for Bob while he packs for his upcoming dive trip.>>
I have a 55 gallon tank with 1 yellow tang, 1 maroon clown fish, 1 velvet and 1 blue damsel. I also have several green/brown button polyps, Christmas tree worms, feather dusters, some hard coral (?) that came with the LR (about 25 pounds of it) etc. My question is :
Recently I noticed some little white spots on my clown fish and did a fresh water dip (4 times).
 <<in what period?>>
He/she has been eating fine, does not scratch at all, and all spots seem to be along its white stripe and on top of the head. My water parameters are : Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 10ppm (?) pH 8.2 and Alkalinity 3 to 3.5. I have been adding Alkalinity Plus/Hardness every other day.
 <<for any particular reason?>> 
Does this sound like Ich, or I shouldn't worry about it? 
<<could be Ick, may also be stress - you should be at least concerned>> If it is indeed ich, why isn't the clown fish scratching? 
<<hasn't reached that stage or epidemic proportion. Most times the spots are like a scab - a sign that the parasite has BEEN there, but may not still be there.>> 
In addition, my LPS suggested Organicure, however I am concerned that it will hurt my coral states that it has COPPER 1.25% and FORMALDEHYDE