Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 6/17/10
Bob, Simon,
<Jimmy>
Thanks so much for your responses.
<No problem>
As of today the Emp Angel is still not eating. I don't know how long it can go like this before winding down?
<By the look of the fish, a couple of weeks at least>
I went back and looked at pictures of this fish when I first adopted it, and I must say, it looked a bit more vibrant 5-6 years ago. I agree, captivity has taken its toll on this animal. Curiously, however, there is a Naso Tang as well as a Majestic Angel in the same system that are as vibrant and as healthy as the day they were adopted.
<Mmm, the Navarchus grows a lot smaller than the Emperor -- not only in length, but overall body mass, so does not have the same space considerations. If you are talking about N. lituratus, this also needs more space than this, but Emperor Angels are sensitive fish, despite their sometimes pugnacious and seemingly bulletproof behaviour. They require more care than N. Lituratus and suffer more easily from stress & it's related maladies such as HLLE>.
To look at the Emperor Angel and to track its behaviour, one would hardly think that there was anything wrong. The fish still swims to the top of the tank when I stand in front of the aquarium and has a very natural and flowing demeanor to its motion. In no way do I sense a panic or skittish behaviour. As an avid reef keeper and physician of 25 years, other than the lack of feeding and the HLLE, it is difficult to tell that there is anything wrong here.
<I would 'change' something here, either by removing this fish to another system, or a/ some of the others (the Naso & Navarchus are the prime candidates) at least temporarily to see if you can get the animal to feed in a less crowded setting>
I have been able to recover fish from illness in the past. The Naso and Majestic are prime examples. Years ago when the tank was first established, I had an outbreak of crypt and then HLLE after copper treatment. All fish were QT'd, the display was left sans fish for 8 weeks and the fish were slowly reintroduced. HLLE went away and all have been " visibly disease free" since. Presently, the fact that the other inhabitants of the system are so robust and without even a hint of HLLE is a bit of a mystery.
<Mmm, this can build up unseen for a while, only presenting signs later on. Your other fish could be on their way to visible symptoms also here>
So, my advice to myself at this point is to exercise patience and good fish husbandry.
<Oh yes>
WWM and experience has taught me this. Daily partial water changes, varied diet and TLC is about all I can offer.
<I think one/ other needs to be moved here. Preferably the Imperator'¦ to an uncrowded 8 foot+ system sans large aggressive fishes. Have you tried NLS pellet food? Thera A, supplemented w/ Nori soaked in vitamins + Beta Glucan, some red macroalgae also http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/feature.htm >
The rest is out of my hands. I am thankful that this captive slice of the sea has provided so much enjoyment for me as well as my family.
<Maybe it's time to pay this fish back in kind'¦ with a larger or at least less crowded home>
Thanks Guys, I will let you know how things turn out
<Good luck Jimmy>
Jimmy
<Simon>
Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 6/17/10
Emp Angel still in no eat mode...shows interest in food, approaches to take a nip and then pulls back. How long can a marine fish "otherwise healthy" live without eating ?
<Depends on the individual fish and species... to 'stay alive' a good few weeks here. To stay alive AND be able to recover.. a couple of weeks tops for large Pomacanthus. As posted, I would change 'something' here>
Thanks
Jimmy
<Simon>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 6/22/10
Hey Guys,
<Hi Jimmy>
Just a bit of an update re : Emperor Angel still not eating (been 8 days ) . HLLE is a bit worse.
<Mmm, need to act then>
Rest of the inhabitants in display are thriving and eating no problem. The display has had "reef-like" water parameters for the past week.
<Would be doing 2- 3 water changes per week here>
I am making arrangements to move the fish to a larger tank,
<Marvelous!>
but there is some hesitation on the others accepting the fish given the fact that the fish is not eating.
<It is great that you recognise that action of some kind is required. What other fish are in this larger system and how large is it?>
In the meantime I have set up a 55 g tank as a quarantine of sorts.
<Ok..>
Unfortunately, despite trying to jump start the nitrogen cycle with rock and media from the main display, as of day 3 the QT is running very high ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates.
<Of no use at present then. Have you tried the bottled bacteria products?>
I had a wet dry filter running back onto itself ( pumping from sump to media ) that I would occasionally do water changes from the main display with waste laden water siphoned from the substrate of the main display to the wet dry to provide necessary waste to keep the wet dry cycled. I also used 55 gallons of water from the display (mostly from substrate siphoning) to start the QT. The fact that ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all very high at 60 hours indicates that the QT already has high populations of Nitrosomonas, and Nitrobacter present and hopefully will cycle soon.
I will then transfer the Emperor to this system, while I am in the process of finding a new home.
<This could go either way.. sometimes moving the fish to a different system halts the progress of HLLE, but this is a much smaller system, with all the drawbacks of such, and you are populating it with stock from your existing system. Moving the Emperor here might not relieve any stress on the fish, potentially it will just add new/ different stressors, and the last thing he needs now is exposure to ammonia. Once this QT is cycled, you could consider temporarily moving one/ more of the others here instead, and trying to get the Emperor to feed where it is now in the main system until you can move it to a larger home. If there is more live rock available in the 180 as well, then this will be of more benefit to the Emperor if he decides to graze. Do you have any more live rock w/ good growth that can be placed here as well? Maybe some from a sump area>
At this point I am not optimistic, but hoping that in isolation with optimal water conditions I can nurse this fish back to health.
<Let's hope so!>
We will see how it goes. Any other suggestions from the experts would be welcome!
Thanks
Jimmy
<Simon>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 6/23/10
Thanks Simon,
<No problem Jimmy>
All excellent points, all of which, I am taking into consideration. Though I want to save the Emperor, I also have a concern for the other animals in the system. The last thing I need is to risk widespread disease in a closed system that is brought on by a weak fish.
<Mmm, no. HLLE is not 'catching', is environmental, and the fish looks otherwise healthy>
Alas, I really do need to move here since I have started to notice some very mild aggression toward the Emperor by others in the tank.
<What you perceive is only a small part of what is happening betwixt the fishes>
They sense there will soon be a change in the pecking order.......overall a very natural behavior. It is my sense that the QT will be ready for fish soon ( 3-4 days ) and then I will go from there. The QT is really not a "new" system, I just probably overwhelmed the wet dry filter by using water obtained by siphoning debris from substrate from the display. SO the irony here is that I am dealing with two cycles.......the wait for the QT to cycle and the cycle of life in the display.
One final question, I have two brittle stars in the main display that have gotten quite large. They are not of the green variety, rather the flesh is pink with gray bristles. They do a great job scavenging. The fish seem to stop and stare a bit before moving through an area that is occupied by them but otherwise seem undaunted. Are these a threat to the fish in the tank?
<No, these are beneficial scavengers http://www.wetwebmedia.com/brittlestars.htm>
Should I look for a new home for them also?
<These are fine here>
Pretty obvious here that as I inventory my tank, it looks like I have been a victim of my own success. As I look over pictures from six years ago ALL of the inhabitants have grown tremendously!
<Indeed, but you have stocked with some large growers>
Thanks
<No problem>
Jimmy
<Simon>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 6/28/10
Simon,
<Jimmy>
Need some expert advice. I could not find anyone to adopt the Emperor Angel. I had to take just about every rock out of the main display to eventually guide it into a Plexiglas container, with a bit of thrashing afterward. Is this the method you would use?
<I use a large plastic colander for large fishes, especially Angels, guided in with a net>
The fact that the fish is not eating was a major deterrent to it being adopted.
<Yes>
It is now housed in a 75G ( 48x20x18 ) quarantine tank.
<Mmm, as I previously stated, I would have preferred to leave this fish in the display and temporarily remove the others until it started to feed>
24 hours after the move, the fish settled down. It now swims about. Once again, shows interest in food, approaches as if to take a nibble and then jerks back. To the best of my knowledge it has not eaten for at least 14, maybe a couple of days longer.
<Mmm, is the fish thinning at all?>
It is unlikely that this fish is going to survive, long term.
<I do think there is hope still here>
Though not eating, as long as the fish shows even some interest in food....Is it therefore fair to say there is still a chance?
<Yes - a good one>
What is the longest you have ever seen a fish like this go on a hunger strike and survive?
<I have never had a fish go on a feeding strike for this length of time.>
I am still trying to find a new home for this animal...other than that is there anything else that you would advise me to do?
<Keep persevering with different foods.. keep the water quality up.. I would have left this fish where there was live rock present, but...>
Thanks
<No problem>
Jimmy
<Simon>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 6/29/10
Simon,
<Jimmy>
Unfortunately, I do not have multiple tanks set up to house the others in the display. Difficult decision to push a 75 gallon system with a 10" Naso, 7" Foxface 6 " Majestic and 4" Heniochus...would run the risk of overwhelming the filter.
<One of the drawbacks to putting too many large fish into too small systems>
I understand that would have been best for the Emperor, though. I even considered up sizing to a 96x24x24 display, but as Angels can also outgrow such a system, also.
<This, uncrowded, the barest minimum I would say for this fish or the Naso>
The fish is thinning out but it was very fat to begin with and could easily eat 2 ocean nutrition cubes for breakfast. The new system does have some live rock in it, though, not as extensive.
<I would persevere here.. as long as the fish is not thinning around the head & eyes there is hope yet>
I will continue to offer foods and keep water quality up. I am pleasantly surprised at how well a fan blowing across the top of the tank cools the water by evaporation. My garage is 85 degrees but tank temp is 78.
Is the colander that you use semi circular or cylindrical in shape?
<Is a circular one.. You need to find one that has smooth edges to the holes & rim.. perhaps stainless steel is an option as well. Use a net to guide the fish in, a little tricky sometimes, but negates the possibility of damage to the gill spines>
Thanks
<No problem, Simon>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 7/2/10
Hey Simon,
<Hey Jimmy>
Thanks for all of your help.
<No problem!>
I have done much thinking over the past few weeks and I have decided to upgrade my tank.
<Well, that's just marvelous news! Me, I LOVE big tanks ;)>
I will be moving from a 24x24x72 (180g) display to a 24x24x96 (240g )size.
<Nice!>
As I read on WWM, I completely realize that any size tank can be out grown by its inhabitants, so I will definitely keep my stocking density low, lower in fact than it is now in the 180.
<Well done.. your fishes will thank you for it>
I am not going to rush into this transition which means that I may have to find a new home for a couple of my fish. (10" Naso Tang is way too big for a 24x24x72 display, and probably likewise for the 96x24x24.
<Agreed>
I have been involved in the hobby so long that I will not really need to invest in much more than the tank, which will still be a chunk of change.
<Costly indeed.. my latest glass box set me back nearly £3,500>
So, my question to you here, is there another tank size that I should consider ( FOWLR )?
<For the fishes that you have now? The bigger the better. For the Navarchus, Heniochus & a couple of smaller others? The new size you state will be fine>
I understand that the difference between an 8 ft tank and a 6 foot tank is a pretty big jump in fishkeeping terms.
<To the fishes it will make a bigger difference, and an 8ft tank IS impressive to view>
Would a 300g size of the same length but a bit taller be an equal incremental jump (as the jump from my 180 to the 240).
<No, as surface area is more important than depth. Given the choice though I would go an extra few inches in height here myself anyway, but if you could expand the width some 3-6 inches or more as well this will make a much bigger difference and give a much nicer look/ feel to the system.>
I know I have said this many times before, but I really want for this to be my last tank purchase.
<Then I really would have a think and see if you can widen the tank some.. gives a sensational impression of depth and opens up far more aquascaping possibilities.>
Thanks Jimmy
<No problem Jimmy. Simon>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE -- 7/12/10
Hey Simon,
<Mmm, he's marked "out till 8/2. Has asked that others resp. in his place. Howdy!>
Just wish to update you on the Emperor Angel. Unfortunately, I could not find anyone interested in taking the fish since it was not eating. And to update you I moved it into a 75 G tank in my garage. In retrospect, you were right, that the thing to do was either to move this fish to a larger system or to move some of the other fish in the tank to another system.
<Yes. Have been reading you twos corr. while placing it.>
Unfortunately, this was not possible for me. After the move the fish perked up for a day or two and 4 weeks into its hunger strike it actually did eat two krill. Unfortunately, that was a week ago, and the hunger strike continues. Aside from this feeding, this fish has not eaten in 5 + weeks. It is thinning out and losing tissue ( MHLLE ) between the eyes as well as between the spines of the dorsal fins. It still orients to me when I walk into the room and seems less interested in even approaching food. Things do not look very good for this animal and I really hate to see it like this. Even though it still swims around the tank, I sense that the end is near. I am not sure what else I can do at this point to ease any suffering, but lesson learned here.
<Mmm, have you tried an open bivalve yet? Perhaps with a bit of appetite enhancer (e.g. SeaChem's Vitality) soaked on it for a few minutes?>
It seems pretty clear to me now that this fish may have stopped eating secondary to insufficient space. I looked over my log and notes that this fish was purchased as a 5" adult in 2004. 18 mo.s ago, at 9.5 inches the first signs of a lack of space manifested as HLLE. And 5 weeks ago silently just stopped eating. My understanding of the life cycles of these fish in the ocean is that at some point they "migrate" to deeper parts of the reef.
<Mmm, I've encountered full-size adults of this species in a few tens of feet depths all over its range>
So it all comes down to available real estate. For humans this lack of space would be kind of like sleeping in a bed that is too small...can survive but never with truly restful sleep.
<A useful model>
Which leads me to believe that these fish need to be kept in tanks that are much larger than what most people have available in their homes.
<Yes... I suggest a minimum of 300 uncrowded gallons for large Pomacanthids>
Unbelievable, considering the popularity of this beautiful animal. I am not sure how old this is by my best guess anywhere from 8-10 years ( 3-4 years when I got it and I have had it for six )
Thanks
Jimmy
<Welcome... Do have a read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/emperorfdgfaqs.htm
and the linked files above, if you haven't already. Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 7/13/10
Bob,
Nice to hear from you again! I do not know if you remember, but I am the one years ago that really thought hyposalinity worked for crypt when I brought the imperator in to begin with!
<I seem to recall...>
I went back and read our posts, and I must say , very nice correspondence.
Amazingly, tonight I put this fish back in the 180g FOWLR. Even in it's weakened state, it assumed dominance, again, and ate ...after a 5 week hunger strike.
<Ahh, great!>
We will see how things go from here, but I have a suspicion that this animal may be slowing down due to it's age.
What a beautifully graceful animal! I feel badly as these creatures really do belong in the wild.
<Mmm, I do want to make a def. statement here: It is my sense that the sacrifice/use of "some" part of the living world is merited "IF" said use serves to inform, inspire humans re our world>
Though I love the hobby, I am, over the past couple of years beginning to feel against keeping such animals in captivity.
<Some...>
Over the past 20 years I have kept just about every marine fish that I have had a desire to keep. Perhaps it is time for me to go full circle and keep damsels or others that are better suited to the captive marine environment.
<I keep fancy goldfish, and sparse few tropicals>
Thanks
Jimmy
<Thank you Jimmy. BobF>

Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 7/20/10
Bob,
Just an update on my adult Emperor Angel. To recap, this fish was purchased as an adult in 2004 ( 5-6" ) and has adapted wonderfully to its 180 g fowler. The tank has been a closed system for 6 years and also has an adult Majestic Angel, Fiji Foxface, Naso Tang, and Heniochus Butterfly. All of the fish were about 1/2 their present sizes when introduced and clearly too large / too many for this system. I have had a busy work schedule so I did get a bit behind on my water changes, but seemed to always get in a 40g change once every 4-6 weeks or more frequently.
On 6/08/2010, I noticed that the Emp Angel had stopped eating and began showing signs of progressing HLLE. I did a 80g water change and then 20 g water changes every day to every other day, to no avail. The others in the tank were doing great. The others showed some aggression to this fish, but the fish actually stayed very calm in its demeanor and shrugged off the aggression without panic and was always out swimming, not hiding. By 6/18/2010 I moved the angel to a 55 g quarantine tank which was way too small, so I set up a 75 g tank and moved it there...better but still too small and not eating. I kept water quality up and persevered. No signs of external disease just no eating. Interest in food yes but no eating. Amazingly on July 5, the fish ate for the first time in a month ( two krill )
By July 13, I could not stand to see this fellow suffer much longer...it was thinning out but still swimming peacefully about the tank. HLLE worse, of course. I had been offering daily food morsels fit for a king ( fresh mussels, krill, shrimp, angel formula etc ) to no avail. Then as a gut instinct I moved the fish back to its home of 6 years, my 180g FOWLER. I corralled the fish into a plastic bag to minimize stress and moved it to matching water conditions in the 180g. Though other inhabitants challenged it for dominance, it regained dominance within 24 hours AND started eating..can't explain this.
Now, one week later, the fish is eating but exhibiting a strange behavior. With some coarse foods, like pellets, but to some degree with all foods it aggressive in its approach to the food item, grabs it and then rears back extending its jaws and moving side to side as if it has taken too big of a bite and the food is stuck in its throat. It does not regurgitate the food once taken, but it does not look comfortable swallowing certain food items like pellets. It seems to do much better with thawed, chopped ocean nutrition cubes. Any thoughts
Thanks
Jimmy
<Mmm, none... this does seem odd. Perhaps some sort of stenosis has occurred through... this fish not eating for such an extended period? BobF>
Re: Emperor Angel and HLLE 7/20/10
Thanks Bob,
My thoughts exactly. Though eating and improving, this fish clearly has difficulty, and probably pain, when swallowing foods. If this is a result of some kind of internal trauma things should get better. If it is an enlarging tumor the fish will perish, only time will tell. Never in my 40 years in the hobby, however, have I seen such a fish go on a 1 month+ hunger strike and make such a comeback. The sheer mass of this particular fish and previous states of good health are probably major contributors to its survival in this instance.
Though I completely agree with Simon's recommendation earlier in this thread that these fish need a larger tank, IMO the problem with the Emp. Angel is probably unrelated to tank size.
<Mmm, to some extent...>
( Unless, of course, the stress of the smaller tank caused a tumor to begin with ) And, for a fish like this to go on a hunger strike and then make a comeback, water and tank conditions must be pretty decent.
<Or, as you speculate above, there is "something" else going on with this fish; perhaps internally>
My only remedies in this case included a period of quarantine in pristine water conditions,( though in a smaller tank) followed by re-introduction to the previous environment ( the fish's home of the last 6 years ) after bringing that home from "FOWLR" water condition to REEF parameters. As much as is written about the sensitivity of these Pomacanthids to their environments, once they settle down, they are quite hardy.
<Agreed>
I will keep you posted
Thanks
Jimmy
<Thank you, Bob Fenner>