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Emperor Angel, fdg. 3/5/20
Help....Marine Angels? 5/10/10
HLLE, Pomacanthus, reading 10/22/08 Hi Folks, <Matt> I will try to make this short and sweet. You guys are terrific. <Danke> I have a 225 gallon FOWLER. The tank is about 5 years old and the tank has no traces of Nitrate (5ppm or lower) and all other levels are good. I have raised a Queen Angel, Imperator, and Navarchus since they were babies. They get along well and are healthy. I had to move the tank and since it has stressed out my Imperator. He seems to have started to develop "hole in head". <Not uncommon> It is not bad yet and he is active and feeding well. Not sure how this happened. <?> I am wondering if I should start to look at new filtration. The tank has excellent water flow, an excellent skimmer, bio balls in the sump (I know you guys don't like this) and a U/V. Is it time after 5 years to get rid of the bio balls? <I would> Could I use my current sump to maybe do a eco system mud filter? <A possibility> I would really appreciate some feedback. Thanks a ton, Matt <Sure... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/HLLESWCure.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner> Emperor Angel With HLLE - 06/01/2006 Hey guys! What are the common causes of Head and Lateral Line Disease for Marine Angels? <Primarily dietary deficiency.... Start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm and note that though freshwater HLLE is often caused by Hexamita, in marine fishes, it's almost always nutritional.> I have a 4" Emperor with it and I am just racking my brains trying to find the cause. Good thing is that he is healthy as a horse and has quite the appetite. <Ah, good.> I have read that if I can find the cause and fix it that I can reverse its effect on the fish. Is this true? <To an extent, yes.> I have been feeding my Angel "Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand" frozen food for angel and butterfly. He also gets Formula two, and on occasion brine shrimp plus and mysis shrimp. I feed very generous amounts of red and green algae. I have just today switched his Angel food with Hikari Mega Marine Angel frozen food. It seemed to have more sponge in it. <Try Ocean Nutrition's foods, too.> I also just today began soaking all the food in Zoe. <I would switch this to Selco/Selcon and/or Vita-Chem.> It is not the water conditions. I have awesome water quality. Never any algae blooms, the tank is very mature. The ph though is a little on the low side, 8.1... <.... not awesome.> it has always been this way no matter what I do or what I try (my husbands tank has the very same issue). <Please try to get to the bottom of this issue, raise to 8.3.> I have had my fish for a very long time and the Angel is the only one showing ill health. That's why I suspected it may be a dietary issue? <Almost definitely.> Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but my stocking list is 1- 6" Naso, a Sailfin Tang, 6 blue-green Chromis, an algae blenny, a flame angel, a pair of Sebae clowns and a black and silver cardinal. They are in a 6' long 150 gallon tank. They seem pretty tolerant of one another. <I see no real problems with this mix; good choices.> Any help would be appreciated. <If you don't already, consider having live rock in the aquarium, or if your rock is more than a few years old, consider switching some/much of it out for new. This new rock would first need to be cured, of course, before adding to the established tank.> Thanks, The Melendez Family P.S. How do I check for a reply? I am not sure what this would be posted under or how to get there from the home page. (Yes...I have to be spoon-fed lol). <Will be posted.... under HLLE FAQs of all places! Also on the dailies for a day, also replied to your email address. We try to cover our bases (grin)> Thanks again. <Glad to be of service. Wishing you well, -Sabrina> HLLE? Dear Scott F. <Back with you!> In furthering our
imperator diagnosis: Just to let you know about my water quality let me
tell you what I have and what I am doing. My 210 (home of the fish) has
2 Tidepool II running through a thirty five watt UV, an ocean clear
cartridge filter, I have a Berlin Turbo in one sump and I use a D-1
Diatom once a week till it clogs up. I am doing a 10 to 15% water
change weekly with RO water. The Tidepools have a blue pad,2 bags of
Chemi pure and bio stars in the three trays X 2. Judging by
what I am currently doing is there anything else I can do to improve
water quality? I would love your assessment and recommendations.
<Well, it sounds like your husbandry techniques are good. Assuming
that your water quality is up to par, that leaves only a few other
possibilities for HLLE, such as diet or the more exotic stuff, like
stray electrical voltage (you can use a grounding probe to help remove
stray voltage, BTW). I'd consider just about everything in your
assessment. I suppose that, if we're dealing with HLLE, it may be
diet...Even then, it may not be! That's one of the frustrating
things about this malady! I'd do some research, and continue to
maintain good water conditions and provide quality food, and observe
the fish's progress from there. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
thanks again Kirt Emperor with HLLD >Good afternoon folks at WWM, >>Greetings. >After exhausting all resources I am finally breaking down to ask you a question. First, let me start by giving you a brief description of my problem. I have an emperor angel that has developed a serious condition of HLLD. It is to the point that his entire face is almost completely pitted as well as his lateral line. I have followed all suggestions found in all your related articles but nothing seems to be working. >>It would be helpful to have an outline of what suggestions have been tried, to what extent, as well as timeline. In any event... >My tank is a 90 gal. FO, up and running for about 3 years, with some ornamental corals, one small piece of LR and about 2-3" of LS. Filtration is through a wet dry filter and protein skimmer of unknown type (a gift from a friend) which does produce cups of dark green product on a regular basis. I took your advice and bought a large Rubbermaid trash can and powerhead to mix my own water. Using Instant Ocean salt and Seachem's Prime for chlorine and chloramine removal and tapwater, I am able to do 10- 15 gal water changes each week (the LFS said no other chemicals were needed due to our water quality). When tested, all water qualities appear within normal limits. >>We prefer to know actual readings, test kit brand is helpful as well. As I'm sure you can understand, there are many varying definitions of "within normal limits" or "acceptable parameters". >Livestock includes: 1-emperor angel 4" beginning to change colors 1-hippo tang 5" 1-powder brown tang 4" 1-sailfin tang 4" in the recovering stages of HLLD >>This system is already overstocked, especially with consideration to adult sizes of these first four residents. >1-yellow tang 4" 2- small damsels (blue with yellow tails) 1-sebae clown with anemone 1-CB shrimp 2-sandsifter stars 2-useless brittle stars >>Believe me, they're not useless. >1-small queen conch multiple Astrea snails In the morning they are fed one cube each of Angel Formula and Formula Two by Ocean Nutrition soaked in Kent's Marine C, and in the evening one sheet of Nori and some silversides both soaked in Boyd's Vita-Chem. >>ALL these fish are fed only two cubes of frozen food? In my opinion they are underfed. Also, I MUCH prefer Selcon, and it can be ordered online. >On the recommendation of my LFS, I have installed a grounding probe. The only thing that I have not done is to add American Marine Selcon and this is due to not being able to find it locally. The LFS also suggested that if what I am doing does not work, that I could inject the vitamins directly into the base of the tail with a small syringe. Ever heard of that? >>Oh my goodness, an extreme measure, I think it would be more stressful than helpful. >The Sailfin tang also had a bout of HLLD but seems to be in the recovering stages. All fish have a healthy appetite and otherwise appear in great condition, everyone seems to be happy and getting along. What am I missing (besides a larger tank, which is hopefully in the future if my wife lets me)? I would really like to see my angel clear up and complete his color change. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated. Steve >>Personally, I would try using Selcon instead of the other vitamins, and I would definitely feed more. Also, if you can't get a larger tank VERY soon then I strongly suggest thinning the herd. Marina Emperor Angel sick? Hello, I just bought a 4-5 inch juvenile coloured Emperor angel a couple days ago and he's just beginning to feed on brine shrimp and Mysid and if there is any other nutritional food that i should be feeding him please tell me.<I would feed your angelfish a mixture of foodstuff...such as Nori-which can be purchased at a grocery store. I feed my angelfish Lifeline (green for herbivores) and I also soak all foodstuff in vitamins.>My problem is that I've noticed an oval shaped brownish faded sore about 1 cm in diameter and from a certain angle it kind of pokes out a little, but not that much. I have heard of white blotches that these guys get when there changing, but I'm not sure if its the same thing. Is this nutritional or a skin disease?<It could be a environmental disease...A picture would help greatly. BTW.. test your water and give me your results.. pH.. nitrates, nitrites, ammonia. SG--Good luck, IanB> Please help me I love these guys sooo much. thanks HLLE on Imperator Angel Bob, Long time no chat (as much as I enjoy reading your words of wisdom, long periods of silence are testaments to your good advise). <Perhaps> I have an Imperator with some light erosion on his face and lateral line. He's currently going through his color change, so I've tried to be especially good with his diet. <This and sterling water quality, and perhaps iodide/iodine supplementation are the best routes for avoiding and treating this malady> I randomly cycle the following: Ocean Nutrition Formula 2 flakes, frozen Spirulina Cubes, frozen Angel Formula cubes, frozen brine shrimp soaked overnight in Zoe Marine and Zoecon, Mysis shrimp and New Life Spectrum Marine Fish Formula pellets. I also usually keep a strip of red, green or purple dried seaweed in the tank for everyone. Also, I occasionally pick up a broken/dying piece of sponge from the pet store and throw it in there for the angel to pick on. <Very good> The tank's primary occupant is a Bonnethead shark, so there is some live rock (with encrusting sponge), although it's minimal (I sent you some photos in the past). I allow algae to grow on the back glass so there's always something to graze on. The water parameters are good (no ammonia, nitrites, nitrates or phosphates) with a pH of around 8 -- although I do keep the water a bit on the cool side (72 degrees). To combat the condition (started a few days ago), I've replaced the seaweed strips with broccoli (either raw or microwaved for about 15 seconds). I also tested for stray voltage using a volt meter. I was told by my local pet store to set the meter to 120V and check the wall current (checked out a little above 120), then place the negative probe in the wall socket and the positive probe in the water to check for any current. There was none. Am I doing this correctly? <Sounds like it> I also bought a grounding probe (figured it couldn't hurt with the shark in there), but when I plugged it into my power strip, I actually DID get a measurable current in the water, so I removed it (shark was NOT fond of the grounding probe experiment!!). <No... as you are likely aware... the Ampullae of Lorenzini...> I assume my problem was that I needed to plug the grounding probe into a verified grounded wall outlet rather than into a power strip - any suggestions?? <Mmm, the connection should have been fine... as long as both grounded... I would leave off with such a device> Also, since I have a fairly large algae scrubber (an Ecowheel), the store recommended the addition of Kent Marine Iodine and Coral-Vite. <Yes> Does algae consume Iodine? <Some do to a very large degree, yes> Can/should I soak foods in these solutions or is it best to administer these into the tank water? <Actually both. Daily for the foods, weekly for the system. Do utilize a test kit, see if you can get a "next day" concentration> I've started dosing the tank at about 1/2 the recommended dosage from the manufacturer. What do you think? Any other suggestion? <Not at this time> Also, I do regularly use carbon. About 5 lbs. in a 500 gallon tank, which I change out every month. I mention this as this might also be a potential cause for removing trace elements, although I know this is heavily debated. <Likely of small concern here. The "shark" effect, psychologically and water quality wise are more important for instance> By the way, the fish don't seem to really like the broccoli, although they might start giving it more consideration if I continue to withhold the algae strips. <I would return to the algae, you can eat the broccoli> Thanks again! Your suggestions are greatly appreciated. <As is your sharing. Bob Fenner> Head And Lateral Line Syndrome/Erosion Hi, I have a XL emperor angel. I had him for over a year now. He is in a 240 gallon tank with some Tangs. Doing great. My water parameters are fine. My question is that I started to notice two small holes on my emp.s face. Below his nostrils. There are two, one on each side. What could this be?? I notice that my Sohal tang has two holes on one side of his face too. Anyhow thanks. Lee <It sounds like the beginning of Head And Lateral Line Syndrome/Erosion. You can read about it here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm -Steven Pro> Adult Emperor Angel with hole(s) in the head - getting worse Hello, I have a 6 " adult Emperor who has been in a QT for 10 weeks. First he came down with ich, then gill flukes (fresh water dips took care of those problems). For the past 6 weeks he has been suffering from HLLE. He has deep holes just around his head and especially around the mouth (nothing along the lateral line, though) and he is getting worse. QT is a 40 gallon with a Remora skimmer, Penguin 300 filtration, 20% water changes weekly, no meds, his diet comprises of mostly Formula II soaked in Zoe, Mysid shrimp w/Zoe once or twice a week, Nori once daily, occasional shaved prawns. I tried Hexamit and it helped him a little bit for a while, but he is worse now. What is wrong? <It sounds like simple HLLE. I would add sponge matter to this diet and perhaps switch your food additives to Boyd's Vita-Chem and American Marine Selcon.> Thank you. <Good luck! -Steven Pro> (Too small) juvenile emperor angel Good morning, I have a quick question, I hope. I bought a juvenile emperor (about 2 inches in length) for my 220g FOWLR tank. All water parameters are good as my other fish are doing very well. The angel appeared fine at first, although it did take about a week to start eating (brine shrimp). The last couple of days it has become completely lifeless, sitting on the gravel and not swimming and picking around at the live rock, also has stopped eating. I removed it last night as I noticed its fins becoming very ragged and its tail almost disappearing over night. I've watched carefully and do not see any fish picking on it so I'm assuming it must be some type of parasite. <Or collateral "stress" reaction... resultant from capture, holding, shipping... through the chain of custody of the trade to you.> I gave it a fresh water bath for 8 minutes last night and put it into a quarantine tank. I was going to put it through a copper treatment for a couple of weeks to see if this helps, do you think this is the right thing to do? Any suggestions? If I do put copper in this quarantine/sick tank how long should it stay in there. Thanks <Mmm, please take a read through an old article on this species archived on our site here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/imperator.htm I encourage folks to acquire this fish at 10-14 cm... Yours was/is likely "too small" to start. I would not copper its water, but would isolate it as you have, place a bit of live rock for comfort, water conditioning, food availability, hope to coddle it back to health. Bob Fenner> Joe Imperator angel Bob, I have noticed that FFExpress often has their juv. imperator angels on sale. I would assume that the low prices create a large volume for the items that are on sale. This may mean that people are purchasing these fish that you say are difficult to keep healthy. <It's possible> I have read your Q&A and seen someone asking about HLLE on their imperator. My juv. imperator angel has also started to develop HLLE (I think?). <Very common... environmental, nutritional difficulty with this species> The fish has enlarged holes around its face and patches where color has been lost. A couple of days past and I started noticing that the patches had progressed toward the tail. <The same... maybe take a look at the species profile, nutritional disease, HLLE materials stored at the URL: www.wetwebmedia.com... I would spiff up water quality... add vitamins and iodine to its food... strongly encourage the implementation of an algae/mud filter... the last REALLY works on HLLE> The fish store assured me that I had created the disease by allowing electrical currents into my tank. The problem could be rendered for ~$20. I went home and read what your book had to say about the disease. Luckily, my judgment was correct as you also believe the electrical current theory to be anecdotal. I had just added a 30 gallon sump to my 75 gallon tank, so I feel that water quality was not a big player in the disease progression. <I concur, and thank you> After checking my notes, I realized that I had only been feeding the fish the Formula I frozen food from Ocean Nutrition. Normally, I use Formula I and Angel Formula. I started giving the fish only Angel Formula and within 2 days the spots had disappeared. It may be a coincident, but I thought it was interesting since you book states that the cause may be water quality and/or diet. The angel has also been swimming around the tank much more since the diet change. <Ah, a good intuitive statement and useful anecdotal account... You have just saved several (from the Middle English meaning "many") Pomacanthus imperator angels...> I thought that your comments on the subject may be valuable since the FFExpress frequently advertises the juvenile imperator angel. Jeff >> <And I thank you, again, Bob Fenner> Emperor Angel Bob, I recently ordered an Emperor Angel from FFExpress. He is about 3 1/2-4" and looked great when I got him. I placed him in a quarantine tank for 10 days and everything looked good except he didn't seem to be too excited about eating. <Typical... a very trying journey> I hoped that this would get better once I placed him in my main tank. After placing him in the main tank he has pretty much just hung around the bottom of the tank among the live rock. He still doesn't seem to excited at all about eating. I have tried frozen brine, plankton, flakes, seaweed selects, Spirulina, and angel formula. I have seen him eat some frozen brine and angel formula but ignores just about everything else. When he does eat, he doesn't come out to eat. He very lazily eats what just happens to fall right in front of him and even then he is very slow and lazy about it. I'm not sure if there is anything wrong with him because his colors look great, he breathes normally, and doesn't show any outward signs of anything being wrong. Another thing that concerns me about him is that he only sticks to the rocks. <This is what juveniles of the species do in the wild... where they get their food (sponges, tunicates, algae...), and protection from predators...> He doesn't come up front in the open ever and never goes up top to eat. I have noticed him hanging out with my Foxface, which also isn't a big swimmer, and it almost seems like he is trying to hide his face. As I look at him I see him try to find a niche in between rocks and put his face in there. Sometimes, he even almost lays down in the sand behind a rock which seems like he is either trying to go under it or just hide. Does this sound like normal behavior? <Not unusual> Nobody picks on him or anything. The only other fish in the tank are a green dragon wrasse, Foxface, and two orange diamond gobies in a 125 gallon tank with around 70 pounds of live rock, two emperor filters, and a sea clone skimmer. All my water parameters are fine except that my nitrate is at 10 ppm and nitrite is at 5 ppm. <What? is that a typo? Five ppm of NO2? This is way too much... I would upgrade the skimmer and cut back all feeding till this is under 1.0ppm... and likely increase the time your lights are on to help...> I think my nitrate level is a little high only because I keep trying different foods trying to find something that he likes. I would appreciate any suggestions you may have on what I can try feeding him and any thoughts on his apparent shyness and strange behavior of trying to hide. Thanks, Gianluca <Patience my friend. Get a better skimmer, try some live food, don't worry unless the specimen is getting thin. Bob Fenner> Problem with an Imperator. Help Hello, <Hi there> My Imperator has been progressively getting worse. (I attached pictures) <I see> For the first three weeks he was doing great. Then he started to show a few white blotches. They came and went every day. He continues to eat very well. Lettuce only. I am feeding vitamin-enriched lettuce. <Stop using the lettuce... terrestrial greens period... not much nutrition, too much likelihood of having/supplying nutrients to your system> Over the next three weeks the blotches became worse. Copper and two types of bacterial antibiotics (At two different times) are not doing the trick. <Likely not parasitic or infectious but water quality/environmentally derived> I have a protein skimmer going with carbon and a 25W UV filter. The blotches are too big for parasites and they are not fuzzy. It is almost like he is loosing color in those areas. Definitely a skin problem. Any recommendations? <Look to the myriad of ways you can improve water quality. Do you have live rock? I would add it, or add more... Place live macro-algae in the system... Check over the filtration components, and compare notes with the many FAQs on marine filtration placed on WetWebMedia.com... do you measure various aspects of water quality? Switch to human-intended prepared algae (e.g. Kombu, Nori...) and soak these in your vitamin mix instead... Read through the environmental and nutritional marine disease sections on WWM. Bob Fenner John Re: copper Thanks, I'm in the process of curing 45 lbs of live rock, but it won't be ready for at least a week. <I would place a few pieces... Now. A good deal of the live parts are edible to the Angel (sponges, sea squirts), and the chemicals produced/released will stimulate its appetite. Bob Fenner>
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