Urgent question! Angelfish repro.    11/30/07
Good morning!
<Hello,>
What a great and informative site, thanks for that!
<You're welcome!>
I do have a question however that I have not been able to find an answer to, some come close, but not quite what I am lookin for so maybe you can help me?
My angelfish suddenly started to spawn, I was not prepared at all, never thought 2 randomly picked angels would fall in love, turn out to be a boy and girl to begin with. Anyway, of the first eggs I have 7 left, which will be 3 weeks old tomorrow, as of hatching. Yesterday morning the largest one, and strongest, so I thought laid dead on the bottom, very, very disappointing and discouraging. I have no idea what killed him, especially because he was just fine the night before, and the weaker smaller ones are still alive.
<Hmm... this does sometimes happen with egg-laying fish. The main problem is usually water quality. Bacteria and fungi can work their way through eggs and small fish. Because the small fish stay close to the substrate, the bottom of the tank is a potential source of infection. Most breeders like to use bare-bottomed tanks so they can siphon out detritus from the bottom of the tank every day. Sand or gravel collect detritus and consequently bacteria and fungi.>
My problem now is that some of the others are laying sideways on the bottom, sometimes they swim around and seem just fine and then they go and lie on the bottom, sideways but making an effort to swim. They are voracious eaters, so that gives me some hope, also that this has been going on for a couple of days and they still eat and everything. What could it be?
<My guess would be water quality. In any case, since the adults will spawn every few weeks, you can change your procedure for rearing the fry until you find a system that works.>
I am little by little weaning them of the distilled water they have been living in, now I use half/half distilled and drinking water, I will eventually change to 100% treated tapwater.
<Why distilled water? Contrary to myth, Angelfish do not need very soft water. They do not live in the same blackwater environments as Discus. Something around 5-10 degrees dH and pH 7.0 is just about perfect. This is especially true for farmed Angelfish, which are a hybrid not a true species and will live and breed perfectly well in tap water.>
I do regular water changes, that is everyday, I feed them 3 times a day freshly hatched brine shrimps that are never older than 24 hours, most of the time much less and I clean up the "mess" after every meal, which is when I replace the water I have taken out with new water.
<I'd recommend varying the diet. Brine shrimp nauplii are a good "first food" but their nutritional value is not great. Once the fry are swimming about, you should quickly wean them onto baby fish flake or liquid fry food. Angelfish will normally accept these at once. After a couple of weeks, they should be taking finely ground flake and Daphnia.>
The tank has a sponge filter and bubbles and they seem to be just fine, not gasping for air or anything, just swimming sideways or lying on the bottom in that way. Yesterday I added some Epsom salt to the water, at a ratio of 1 TBSP/10gallons, just in case it is swimming bladder disease, which it does look like, right?
<Not really, no. I wouldn't be adding Epsom salt to a breeding tank. What baby fish require is CONSTANT water chemistry. Doesn't really matter what it is... if the eggs have hatched, the water is probably fine. But you do need to avoid changes in chemical composition.>
But would they have not already died? I mean, they seem otherwise healthy??? I do not dare add the recommended dose of 1 TBSP/5 gallons because they are still babies, or should I???
<No.>
What is in there now does not seem to do the trick. As some more background info, when the eggs where laid at first I left them in a breeding net in the parents' tank and moved them to another container the next day, but in the net, hanging in that container and in water from the parents' tank, mixed with some distilled water and methylene blue that I filtered out as they hatched. Many hatched but most died eventually, lying on the bottom of the net, bloated.
<You should ALWAYS keep the eggs in constant water chemistry. Changing the water chemistry -- even to the "better" -- can cause problems. Much better to change the water chemistry in the breeding tank before spawning.>
The thing is that while I constantly changed the water back then, I was not able to clean the net material and I wonder if those bloated fry that died were attacked by bacteria?
<Very likely.>
I read that somewhere. And could it be that these 7 ones that survived have a bacterial infection???
<Yes.>
You can't tell by their (outer) appearance, they look quite normal, some are a little crooked, but that wasn't a problem before... The strange thing is that they were not always like this, it started just a couple of days ago... The second "batch" was placed in a glass container, in distilled water with Methylene blue, so I corrected many mistakes from the first time...
<As you say, you do need to keep trying new methods. Angelfish breeding is not especially difficult, but I would recommend leaving the parents to rear them if you can. Often, the adults eat the first few batches, but if you let them 5 or 6 times they should "get the hang of it". Cichlid parents clean the eggs much better than we can, and usually you end up with more baby fish.>
I have a second "batch" of babies, 12 days younger, they are doing quite well and are much livelier than the first ones and they seem te be doing great, no dead ones this morning, I think mom and dead are preparing for yet another spawn. The second "batch" was placed in a glass container, in distilled water with Methylene blue, so I corrected many mistakes from the first time and I can notice the difference...
<Exactly so.>
I do hope you can help me because it is so frustrating, I know it is up to me to do something, that I am doing something wrong, but what??? By the way, this sideway swimming started when they were still swimming in 100% distilled water, so it could not have been the change in the mix of water. The water temperature is quite stable, about 80/82 degrees, that is not much of a problem since I live in Miami.
<You seem to have a fair idea what's going on already. For what it's worth, I concur with your hypothesis. Try again, this time keeping the tank as clean as possible (no substrate and treat with anti-Fungus/Finrot medication) and DO NOT change the water chemistry once the eggs have been laid.>
I look forward to your advice and thank you in advance!
Best regards,
Linda
<Hope this helps, Neale.>

Re: Urgent question! 11/30/07
Hi Neale,
<Linda,>
many thanks for your quick reply, I am now planning the following, what do you think? (Sorry to bother you so much...)
<It's fine...>
The babies are in bare bottom tanks, the parents spawned in the community tank and I took them out after mom and dad were done, and moved them to bare bottom tanks of which I syphon out any dirt on the bottom once or twice a day before they hatch and feed and afterwards after each time I feed them, so the bottoms are pretty clean, I think.
<Good. Use a pipette or similar to remove any silt as and when you see it. The cleaner the tank, the more babies will survive.>
With regard to the water quality, I take your advice seriously, and now I would like to take them out of the Epsom salt water. What do you advise: can I just make a 100% water change to treated tap water?
<No. What's done is done. With baby fish, rapid changes in water chemistry can be lethal. Go slow. Maybe 10% per day water changes in this case.>
That way I get rid of the Epsom salt right away and I get them weaned off the mixture they are in. Or should I do this gradually (considering what you say about constant water chemistry)?
<Yep.>
Also, you mentioned a fungus/fin rot treatment, I have something with Malachite green (Quick Cure), can I use that and do I use the indicated dose, or less? Won't this kill the sponge pump?
<Use half-dose for now, but even full dose will do no harm to filter bacteria *if used as directed* on the bottle!>
After treatment do I change the water little by little to clear out the medicine, as in the community tank?
<If you want. In practise most medications get metabolised by bacteria within a few days anyway, so it's debatable whether much is left behind. A water change would do no harm though.>
If not, what do you recommend? This is your advice for the first batch, the once swimming on their sides? They seem to do a little better now, it comes and goes, but they are always hungry so that gives me hope... All of this is about the first spawn, the second ones are doing good so far, getting weaned off to treated tap water little by little and I will feed them according to your suggestions.
<Breeding egg-layers is always a bit funny like this. Basically you want to do two things: avoid germs, and avoid water chemistry changes. Provided you do this, you should be fine. As for the sick baby fish now, I think it best to see how things go.>
They are now in a separate tank but with only bubbles, no sponge pump or anything, can I balance the water chemistry by making frequent water changes with treated tap water?
<Yes, but don't change more than 25% in one day. Big changes will do more harm than good, given we're playing around with water chemistry here.>
This is all overwhelming but I am desperately trying to keep all the fry alive!
<Don't get too stressed. Remember, fish produce lots of eggs because most never make it in the wild. Think about the thousands of eggs produced by Oscars, but in the wild only a couple will reach maturity. So don't invest too much emotion in every single baby fish! Rather, step back, and use each batch of fry as a learning experience. Make notes of what you did each time. You can then compare results, and find what works best *for you*.>
My plan for the next spawn, which I am afraid will be tomorrow is to take out the leaf the parents LOVE to spawn on and put it separately in water out of the parents tank, which is treated, but then how do I make the change to regular treated tap water? Or can I just take out the leaf and put it in a bare bottom tank with treated tap water and Methylene blue and take that from there?
<Hmm... in this instance, take water from the spawning tank and put that into egg-hatching tank. Move plastic plant to the egg-hatching tank, which will now contain water from the spawning tank. Top-up spawning tank with dechlorinated tap water.>
It is in any case to maintain water chemistry that way.
<Yes.>
That is the nice thing about distilled water, it is chemically stable and easy to change, the second batch is being weaned off it gradually and is doing much better than the first at their age!
<Ah, but distilled water isn't stable. It's very UNSTABLE. Because it lacks carbonate hardness, pH fluctuates wildly. In addition, almost no fish cannot thrive in it. You need to mix distilled water with some hard water. I recommend a 50-50 mix for angelfish, so you have 5-10 dH and around pH 6.5-7. I've bred Angelfish in the hard, alkaline water of Southern England (around 20 dh and pH 8) so water chemistry is far from critical with the popular Angel varieties sold in shops.>
Right now it is impossible for me to get mom and dad a separate tank and have them raise the kids themselves, I totally agree with you that would be the best. (besides my husband would have a fit if they would start eating their eggs...)
<Every angelfish I have ever seen eats its eggs for the first few batches.>
When it comes to food, I will go out this afternoon and see what other baby food I can find, the first ones are in any case big enough for finely crushed (baby) flakes, I will experiment with that as you suggested.
<Just regular flakes, ground up using teaspoons or a pestle/mortar will do the trick. Hard-boiled egg yolk, in tiny amounts, is also surprisingly good.>
I would really appreciate your helping me to make a plan of action for the first babies, if you can agree with what I am planning or how should I do this? I am sorry to bother you, I read a lot on the internet and try to learn as I go, but sometimes I am so in doubt...
<Do read Bob Fenner's intro to Angelfish, here -- http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwangelfishes.htm . It's ironic, Angels are so popular but are actually quite tricky to breed at home. Patience and practise are the keys.>
Many thanks and regards,
Linda
<I hope this helps, Neale.>

A question... Finding culture info. FW Angels  -11/27/2007
Sir,
I m Fatima, PG student in Aquaculture at CIFE Mumbai. I would like to know about the works done on Angelfish Pterophyllum spp. (e.g.. effect of temperature on the reproduction of angelfish). this will help me to continue my research on angelfish . please help me for the same with your valuable knowledge
Thanking You
Fatima S. Hameed
M.F.Sc Aquaculture
CIFE
Mumbai
<Mmm, much of the more recent pet-fish literature is picked up by citation services... Am very sure you're familiar with computer search bibliographies, and am as sure that all pertinent culture info. for Pterophyllum is available... Bob Fenner>

Angelfish repro.   4/27/07
Hi. This is Glenda. How are you?
<Fine, how are you?>
It's been a long time since I last wrote to you on the 25th July 2006. I guess that's because everything has been going ok with my fish so far. Now, I just watched my angelfish (black & silver female) laid eggs about an hour ago and the male (orange & white) fertilized them. Actually they are still at it. I never knew they crossbred.
<They aren't crossbreeding. They're the same species so it's about as surprising as people of different skin colour breeding, i.e., not surprising at all.>
Quite interesting but my problem is they laid them on the tube of my Aquaclear filter. What do I do from here?
<At best, take the tube out and replace with another from the store. Rear the eggs yourself in another tank. Angels are terrible parents, and routinely eat the eggs, so almost all angelfish breeding is done manually. Actually, wild-caught angels are very good. But mass-produced angels are very poor.>
I believe the other fish (2 gouramis, 2 Plecos, 2 guppies, 1 black ghost, 2 upside-down catfish, 1 yoyo loach, 2 rainbow sharks, 1 albino shark) in the tank will eat the eggs or the young ones when they hatch.
<Yes they will. The catfish or loaches during he night.>
Thanks for your advice.
<Good luck, Neale>