To keep or not to keep? This is my question... goldfish sys. hlth.    4/3/07
Okay, here I go.  Please bear with the story, it gets a bit long but therein lies the problem.  9 1/2 months ago my daughter won a "free goldfish" at a  community event.
<Your first mistake. These fish are rarely healthy because of the poor conditions they're kept in prior to being awarded. Repeat after me: a fish is an animal, not a prize.>
I buy a goldfish bowl (death chamber) and small decor and begin to watch the poor fish die.
<Quelle surprise!>
Quickly get online because I know nothing about fish and discover that goldfish cannot live in a goldfish bowl.  Ironic, huh?
<No, not ironic. Unfortunately all too common. No-one should ever buy or otherwise obtain an animal without first finding out its needs.>
Get out my wire whisk and begin a futile effort of oxygenating water overnight.  (free fish = no sleep).
<While I applaud the effort, simply half-filling the bowl instead of filling it to maximize surface area of the water (and therefore oxygen diffusion) would work fine. Goldfish, like many other carp, can breathe air to some degree, and will tolerate poorer water conditions than many other fish, at least in the short term.>
Next day head straight to pet store (chain) with daughter to buy 10gal tank they have on sale.
<Why a 10 gallon tank? Goldfish can live for 20+ years and within four or five years will get to a length of at least 20 cm (about 8 inches) and potentially quite a bit more than that. They are big fish, and at the least you should be thinking of something around the 20-30 gallon mark.>
I know secretly that her fish is not going to survive so I encourage her to look at options just in case "Goldie" doesn't make it.
<Hang on a minute... after seeing one fish dying and realising you know nothing about keeping fish, you're already encouraging your child to buy more fish? Sounds questionable to me.>
Then it happened.  We saw an Oranda for the first time and nothing will ever be the same.
<Arghhh! Please, these are animals. Figure things out first, then buy the fish. Not the other way around.>
Pet expert recommends 20gal tank for one Oranda.  We call Daddy in to make this decision with us and he agrees (usually a tightwad) to spend a small fortune preparing for a new fancy goldfish.  Take tank home.
<The small fortune is known in the trade as "responsibility" and if you're keeping fish these things are non-negotiable. If they're too much for your budget, don't keep fish, and maybe try something less expensive, like a pot plant. But really, you should budget around $100 for an aquarium and all the bits and pieces. Once set up, that will last for years.>
(Goldie was belly up when we got home)  After the 7-10 days recommended to "cycle" (I thought this literally meant cycle all the water through the filter-ugh) we bring home our first beloved goldfish.
<Cycling the aquarium depends on the presence of ammonia to feed the bacteria that become the biological filtration. Some people add inorganic ammonia (from a drug store or hardware store) others use small, hardy fish (such as danios). There are also products that can do this for you, such as BioSpira. What cycling doesn't mean is just running the tank empty for a while. That does nothing at all. Question: have you read an aquarium book yet?>
An exquisite calico Oranda we named "Cheddar Jack" (orange on one side/ white on the other).
<Random comment: fish don't care about names. If they have them at all, they don't share them with us. What they want is a knowledgeable, responsible fishkeeper who reads books and makes an effort to keep things healthy for them. In return, they entertain and educate us.>
We were all hooked and loved watching him.  Several days later ammonia skyrockets and poor CJ has small white fuzz on wen.
<Again, quelle surprise. Uncycled aquarium, no biological filtration, and I'm guessing a big fish producing masses of pollution. Probably overfed, too.>
Called pet store, recommend treatment, bought treatment, fuzz turned into hole which then seemed to turn into hole in the head.  (sob sob) water changes, medications recommended by pet store and weeks (3) of hoping ended in tragedy.
<Unlikely to be actual hole-in-the-head, but just generic fungus or fin rot, perhaps also some type of slime disease.>
Pet store recommends emptying tank and beginning again with all new rock, decor etc.  (fungus they think)
<I don't know where to start here. The problem is ammonia, produced by the fish. Simply performing regular (50%) water changes each day will dilute that and within a few weeks the filter should be at least semi-mature. Randomly adding medications is pointless. Would you take chemotherapy for a twisted ankle? You need to ID the disease, understand what's causing it, and then treat accordingly.>
We set our algae eater free in the pond (I'm sure he was a treat for the crappie) and empty our tank and wait for the sadness to go away and begin again.
<Please stop now. You clearly seem unable to extend any kind of compassion or care to living animals. Putting a tropical fish into an outdoor pond is at best condemning it to a slow, painful death from (effectively) hypothermia. Finding it amusing that another fish would eat it is even sadder, but also runs the risk of introducing diseases from the tropical fish industry into natural waters. Even in a pond, diseases can escape, via birds and insects.>
At this point I had learned what cycle really meant and was determined to do fishless cycle.
<Finally!>
Pressure from daughter and reassurance from pet store causes me to give in 3 weeks into new cycle.  Bring home lovely red Oranda who, so cute, swam sideways.  Named her Sider.  This is important because after 2 weeks swimming sideways became swimming upside down, then bobbing etc.  Despite all efforts and many peas later, Sider succumbed to what I believe was dropsy and is no longer with us.
<Three fish bought, three fish died. Spotting a pattern here yet?>
More tears, but again pet store reassures me this kind of loss is rare and maybe I should try another kind of fish.
<This kind of loss *is* rare to people who try to keep fish properly, but very common with people who don't.>
Sadly, but determined to provide good home to some kind of fish we bring home a beautiful black moor (really prefer Oranda).
<Not sure yours is a good home yet... seems more like Death Row for goldfish.>
To our surprise it is delightful to have a fish actually swim actively (and upright) and interact with us.  Now we are into fishkeeping forever.  We love him.  Joy!!!!     Despair!!!!    Red spot on head.  Crap, not another one.  After just a few short weeks in our home (houseofdoom) Bugsy was gone.
<Please, for the sake of all that is holy and in the name of whatever gods you worship, stop this insanity. Clearly you are not doing the right things and after 4 attempts have failed to do the right things. If you were a child in a class and I was a schoolteacher, how do you think I'd grade you?>
Now I finally get mad.  Hundreds of dollars and just as many tears from my daughter (nine) and myself and we still have no fish.  I have done everything fish expert at pet store tells me to do.  (Funny, I think he was guessing as much as I was)  Scheduled meeting with manager and fish expert  and fish expert discovers that someone sold us the wrong algae eater (we replaced the first one with same kind when we started over) and the algae eater was eating our goldfish.
<Fish don't die because of the wrong algae eater. So this advice is total garbage. Besides, algae eaters (by which you mean Loricariid catfish I assume) are TROPICAL FISH whereas goldfish are COLDWATER FISH and under no circumstances should be kept together.>
Expert recommends Plecostomus (sp) and again assures me this will fix it all.  New fish.  Red/White Oranda with cute red lip.  Welcome home "Hotlips".
<How, why do you think a catfish will fix your clear inability to keep fish by following simple instructions? Will the catfish take you to a bookstore and point out some good fishkeeping books? If not, I wouldn't put too much faith in the catfish...>
Uhoh, didn't see that at pet store, tail fin seems fused.  This won't  be a problem and will not affect her longevity (can a goldfish live for more than two months?).  Okay,  we will keep her (sucker).  She doesn't swim much.  Water quality is great (using test strips).  Could it be her fins?  Dunno, but maybe second goldfish will perk her up says expert. Can I keep two Orandas in 20gal?
<Yes, goldfish are schooling fish, but in a 20 gallon tank you're pushing your luck. Regardless, the filter is too immature, and needs at least 8 weeks to settle down before I'd even think about adding more fish.>
Sure, you can (expert).
<Ka-ching, another sale. He's an expert because he's selling fish to someone who comes back every week to buy another one.>
We bring home Chico, another gorgeous calico........5 days later Hotlips' tail has red streaks and actually appears to be disintegrating.
<Please, please stop....>
Aquaclease (Plecostomus) is on her and before I can get her QT he has nibbled on her side and tail.
<Why is there this catfish in this tank. For a start, plecs get to around 30 cm in length, and need daily feedings of green foods such as lettuce and zucchini, plus catfish pellets. If you aren't providing these, they starve and in desperation might well try to suck on another fish. Starving people eat grass, but that doesn't make grass a normal part of the human diet.>
Take Aquaclease and Hotlips to pet store.  They take Aquaclease back (recommend waiting a while on algae eater ( you should see tank now, ich) and agree to medicate Hotlips until she is healed and ready to come back home.  Check with pet store 4-5 times over next week and they say, yes, your Oranda's tail is better, but her side still needs time.  (Did AC make a bigger hole than I remember?)  Are you sure you're talking about my Oranda?  Yes.   Hotlips is ready to be picked up.  Joy and elation.  Let's load up and bring her home i say to precious daughter.  Arrive at pet store, go to QT tank and I said, okay, now where's my fish?  This is your fish.  No, this is not my fish.  
Pet experts lost my fish.  Don't think it ever made it to QT.  Must have died in her baggie in the stockroom.  Sad, Mad,  daughter is devastated and never wants  to see another fish.  
<Glad your daughter has some sense.>
We still have Chico. Pet store has offered to refund all money (lots of it) spent on tank and numerous fish and medications and supplies.  Thing is we really want to have a goldfish and keep it for a long time and watch it grow and play and take really good care of it.  I am not happy being a fish murderess.  My daughter, trooper that she is, also now agrees that we can't give up on Chico.  
To keep or not to keep?  This is my question.
<Short answer, for the sake of the fish, probably not. You don't seem to have read any books or learned anything from your experiences. I suggest pet rocks.>
What kind of algae eater?
<None. Use an algae scraper.>
What kind of water tests?
<Nitrite and pH at the minimum, and ammonia as well for the first couple of months. Some test strips have all the different tests on them. These are ideal. You want 0 nitrite, 0 ammonia, less than 50 mg/l nitrate, pH 7.0, and moderate hardness for goldfish. Test weekly to begin with.>
Salt only?
<No salt. Are you keeping marine fish? If not, then no salt.>
What kind of dechlorinator? (expert said salt was enough)
<Garbage. Salt does nothing to the chlorine or chloramine. Use a good dechlorinator.>
How often water change?  (expert says 1 in 3-4 weeks)  I've seen more frequent recommendations online.
<For goldfish, 50% weekly. No less.>
Air stone?
<if you want.>
Second Oranda to keep Chico active?
<Not yet. See if you can keep this fish alive and healthy for a couple of months. Then maybe get a bigger tank and then a tankmate.>
Give fish back and stare at empty wall?
<To be honest...>
Please help us.  I realize in the time it  took to write stupid e-mail I might have found an answer but surfing the web is not my strong suit and I was unable to register as a user at your site.  
<What amazes me most is that your e-mail address implies you work in the public school system, and yet you don't seem to know how to find information from books or the Internet. Odd, no? Anyway, you don't have to register for this site, so all I can surmise is you couldn't be bothered to spend a little time browsing the pages but instead preferred to send a long message and have someone else do the work for you. I've sat here for over 20 minutes doing just that. If you can't be bothered to research animal care and welfare, I personally don't think you should be keeping animals at all. But if you insist on keeping the fish, PLEASE go buy an aquarium book, and then read it, cover to cover. Try and learn from it, and use that education to make life better for the animals that depend on you.>
Thank you,
<Indeed.>
Goldfish Mortuary
(Carolyn)
<Cheers, Neale>

Re: To keep or not to keep? This is my question   4/4/07
Despite the slaying I received I am very excited to get your response. Finally, someone is as appalled as I am at the events that have transpired in the tank.  Of course I agree that pet ownership is a considerable responsibility and should not be entered into without the means to do it properly.
<Good.>
And while you may question my intelligence and my inability to seek information, please understand that I reach out to you after exasperating searches for specific info (such as that you answered at end of e-mail).
<OK.>
I suppose I was unable to find info on correct type of algae eater because apparently I shouldn't have one with goldfish.
<Correct. No algae eaters with goldfish. No ifs or buts about it.>
Conditioning salt is what was recommended for my tank and the label does say freshwater, (I checked when I bought it) and again putting faith in someone's advice I took it.
<Aquarium tonic salt is simply overpriced cooking salt. In modern fishkeeping it is sold purely as a con. Of course the retailers stock it -- it's easy money. Back in the "old days" people avoided water changes because they though old water was better than adding new water. Old water has high levels of nitrate, but nitrate is toxic. However, salt reduces the toxicity of nitrate. At a low dosage, the problems caused by the salt (stressing freshwater fish by messing up their osmotic balance) was offset by the benefits of reduced nitrate poisoning. It was the lesser of two evils, if you like. In modern fishkeeping the accent is on water changes, so salt is not only redundant put potentially harmful. So I say again (and this is from the guy who wrote the book on Brackish Water Fishes for TFH): unless you are keeping brackish or marine fishes, you don't need salt.>
I was doing water changes of 25% every 7-10 days but the pet store said I was stressing them too much.
<I have no idea why they said that. But please appreciate pet stores, especially the chain stores/mega-mart types, tend to have people with minimal (or no) real fishkeeping knowledge. Mom and Pop places are often (but not always) better, but still, you can get bad advice even in those types of store. Far, far better to get a modern aquarium book that has been written by a respected expert and has been proofed and edited by a pet publishing house.>
Water quality as I said always tests within normal limits according to strips. Should I be using drop test kits? (The tank has been running now for 6 months).
<Use whichever. I happen to like the dip strips because they're cheap and convenient, but there's some mileage to the argument they aren't so accurate. But with goldfish it doesn't matter too much: ballpark values should be fine.>
I know the first fish died due to water quality.  The second fish I believe had swim bladder issues from the time we bought it. Could it be that the last two fish (ridiculous I know) were victims of the Pleco? Confusion and conflicting information have me completely discombobulated.
<I have no idea exactly why your fish died, but I can tell you 99% of unexpected fish deaths are caused by water quality issues. So the law of big numbers simply says that if you run an aquarium properly, almost all the fish you buy will live to a ripe old age. Goldfish can live for decades.>
Right now a fish is waiting in our tank. He is relying on me to do my best.
<Indeed he is. Fish live in their toilet, and you pull the chain.>
(By the way, about not needing to agitate the water in the goldfish bowl, I got that from one of the postings on this website)
<Each to their own. Agitating the surface of the water works by increase the surface area, which means more oxygen can diffuse in and more CO2 can diffuse out. How you do it doesn't matter, but you do need to be consistent. I can't imagine whisking the water in my aquarium all day. Instead, I adjust the filter so the water coming out the spout "ruffles" the surface of the water. Airstones also help for the same reasons.>
Thank you for your 20 minutes.
<No problem.>
I was under the impression that you did this willingly and furthermore if I did not care about these fish I would have flushed them, returned the tank and would have never spent my time last night reaching out for help.
<Willingly, yes, but for the love of the fish and for the love of the hobby. This is truly a great hobby, and the basics (truly) are not difficult to master. I warmly encourage you to go buy an aquarium book before you do anything else though. Having reliable facts laid out fair and square will make your life much easier, not to mention much more pleasant for your goldfish. Cheers, Neale>

Another's input re: To keep or not to keep? This is my question... goldfish sys. hlth. 4/3/07 - 04/04/2007
I have spent countless hours on this site trying to learn as much as I can as I attempt to set up my first marine tank.  As you have stated yourselves there is no 'one way', and maintaining a successful aquarium has so many methods and potential pitfalls.  That said, I found Neale's response to Carolyn and her goldfish dilemma to be ugly.
<I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention.>
So often are the Q+A's here filled with great info due to a passionate world of professionals and hobbyists.  But here was someone writing in with a story that at least I know I could sympathize with.
<Fair enough.>
A parent who simply wanted her daughter to have goldfish and how that can so quickly unfold like a map of the world.
<Have no problems with this at all. Similar to how I started with fish.>
So what did you do?  Instead of encouraging her and giving her support, you criticized her in the most patronizing way like she was not welcome in your little club.
<No, I didn't. My issue wasn't that mistakes were made, but that mistakes weren't learned from. To lose one fish is one of those things. To lose two in a row is perhaps unfortunate. To lose a third, then a fourth, and then to release another fish into the wild -- these things become less and less excusable.>
Of course she knew little about fish!  That's why she spent countless hours and $ at the LFS trying to learn more, not to mention that she even knows about this site and took the time to write to you.
<That isn't how it seemed to me. The writer said "she couldn't register" which is meaningless given this site doesn't have registrations. So my assumption was that the author of the message hadn't spent any time on the site at all, and just wanted someone else to do the work instead. Nowhere in the message was it written that she had read a book or bought a fishkeeping magazine, either. And no pet store I know of is going to spend "hours" talking to someone about goldfish.>
Condemning her for naming her fish came across as cold and petty.  What daughter doesn't want to name her new little fish?  Isn't the joy of a child or our own inner child part of why we love this.
<I didn't condemn anyone. I talk to my fish and call them silly names as well. Buy my point was that fish don't want love and they don't want names, they want to be looked after properly. Giving a fish a nice name doesn't matter either way. Not looking after a fish will result in its death.>
I am all for proper grammar and applaud that you require this so when Neale wrote 'realising you know nothing  about keeping fish' I was even more dismayed ("realising" is misspelled)
<Neale is British. In England, "realising" is spelled thus. Cheers, Neale>
Todd