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More FAQs about Plumbing Closed-Loop Return Manifold Plumbing Issues
Related Articles: Plumbing Return Manifolds,
Plumbing Marine Systems, Refugiums,
Related FAQs: Closed Loop Recirculation 1,
Closed Loop Recirculation 2,
Closed Loop Recirculation 3,
& FAQs on: Rationale,
Designs, Pumps,
Troubleshooting/Repair, &
Marine Plumbing 1, Marine Plumbing 2,
Marine Plumbing 3, Marine Plumbing
4, Marine Plumbing 5,
Marine Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7,
Plumbing 8, Plumbing 9,
Plumbing 11, Plumbing 12,
Plumbing 13, Plumbing 14,
Plumbing 15, Plumbing
16,
Plumbing 17,
Plumbing 18,
Make Up Water Systems,
Pumps, Plumbing,
Circulation,
Sumps, Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2,
Gear Selection for Circulation,
Pump Problems, Fish-Only
Marine Set-ups,
Fish-Only Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish
and Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems,
Coldwater Systems, Small Systems,
Large Systems, Water Changes, Surge
Devices, |
http://melevsreef.com/closedloop.html |
Manifold Question 10-15-2009
I have a 180 that I want to use the manifold style return with the
rectangular PVC going the inner rim of the tank with various T's for
Loc-Line nozzles and I was wondering what size plumbing would you
recommend? Right now I am going to use a Reeflo Hammerhead (It was a
good deal and have it laying around) and was going to use the 1 1/2" to
supply up the back of the tank to a 3/4" PVC rectangle.. Do you think
the 3/4" is
too small, should I do 1"?
<I would stick with the initial 1.5", and plump the manifold so that it
sits on the outside rim of the aquarium, but can be hidden inside the
canopy. The hammerhead moves a LOT of water, and I'd be hesitant to
reduce
the manifold to 1", much less .75"! However, a 1.5" manifold with ~
10-14 .75" outlets should work great. Good to hear someone still
plumbs/uses manifolds...I still don't understand why pumps like the
Koralias are so "in", when a closed-loop manifold is infinitely
superior...>
Thanks in advance,
<Anytime>
George
<Mike Maddox>
Closed Loop Plumbing 2/4/09
Hello
To all of the people
who have inspired me to become a better fish keeper and now I am in the
midst of a complete overhaul of my tank.
<Great to hear, hello!>
Onwards and upwards to the question at hand.
I'm currently trying to
plumb a closed loop using 2 pumps (what I have on hand) what would be
the best route "t" together at the sump or can I have separate inputs on
the closed loop?
<Either can be done. You will just want to make
sure the line is large enough as to not restrict the flow too much. What
size pumps are we talking about?>
I'm lost and would appreciate any
input you would have.
Robert McGee
<Do also distinguish between a
closed loop and sump returns. If these are feeding from you sump you
will want to take a look at the overflows to be sure you have enough
capacity there. Scott V.> Closed Loop information, Return
Manifold from Sump 12/31/08
Team, Happy Holidays and New
Year.
<Thank you and right back at!>
Have not written in a while
and hope everyone is well.
<Tis here.>
I have read several very
good threads but would like input if you would be so kind.
I
inherited a 75g AGA standard system with a single 600gph, off center
left MegaFlow. Nice tank, not very excited about the circulation
possibilities. I am not a novice to CLS but not a master either. Bottom
line, the tank is older, have checked with All Glass and the bottom and
back appears to be tempered (also used the cheap polarized sun glass
method :) ).
<Surprising to me, glad you checked!>
My favorite CLS
option sans many powerheads is as follows (and I so love the remarks you
all do in parens after comments :). Tear it up!
<OK!>
Intake:
Utilizing the sump only, with check valve, unions for maintenance and
ball valve some control in case of installing a larger pump.
<Well,
one issue already, the check valve. I know many will disagree with this
stand, but they are completely worthless in marine aquaria IMO. The
reason being they cannot be counted on to work, an little obstruction
will keep the valve open.>
Pump: More than likely a 1000-ish GPH like
an Eheim MS or Quiet One 4000HH.
Return: Four, 2 per side, slightly
varied depth but no more than 4" down with loc line. Each side fed by a
3/4" SCWD. My plan is to then use loc line for positioning. On the end
of each loc line feed, I will install 3/4" eductors to enhance flow
while not overpowering the overflow. I also am toying with the idea of
installing small ball valves on each individual run if I can get them to
mount properly in an accessible fashion; I have plumbed myself in
trouble several times - its no good to plan ahead when you can't reach
things easily.
<Agreed.>
Basically, I am hoping with the eductors
to augment the return flow so your opinion on the presumed flows is
appreciated.
<Sure.>
- Example, a 980gph HH pump that has an
initial rise of 4' would make the output roughly 850gph (it will be
nearly a straight shot up actually less than 4'.
- Installation of
SCWD at the same height as CLS (basically) to reduce to 700gph appx.
Each side of the SCWD having an outflow of appx 700gph, then factoring
in roughly 1% loss per each linear foot of PVC (roughly 5'),
overestimating 5% loss per right angle (max of 4) would equate to a 25%
loss of pressure (and I think that's overestimating) leaving appx.
525gph.
<A reasonable estimation.>
If I can tune the two outputs
on each side to effectively reach around 200gph, then adding a factor of
3 for the eductor, that would be a total side to side flow of 1200gph on
each SCWD switch while still only draining 400 gph in the Megaflow
(which should be about right for a Berlin or pseudo refugium so
nutrients can actually process versus passing the bacteria by like fast
food :) ).
<But more than the 1” can truly handle. I do assume you
will be using the ¾” throughput as a drain also, so you can handle the
flow. But this does leave you with no margin for error/safety in the
overflow system.>
And yes, will be tapping the returns on the loc
line branch about 1" below Megaflow teeth in case of check valve issue -
large sump can handle an additional 10g or so on top of normal capacity.
<Better to rely purely on sump capacity as you mention. Skip the check
valve, if you have sufficient room in your sump there is no need for
them at all, they only diminish flow from your pump.>
Am I succumbing
to wishful thinking or are my assumptions reasonable? I value your
thoughts.
<I will take another possibly unpopular stand re the
eductors. These merely take a flow, pinch it down to a higher velocity
and then force this high velocity flow into mixing with the surrounding
water. This does cause more water to move directly out of the fitting,
but I think it is misleading to consumers to say it triples the flow. It
does, depending on perspective. Really for the amount of flow you will
be able run through the overflow you will only want a single ¾” return
or dual ½” returns. Four ¾” outputs here will give you next to no
velocity out of each line to play with, direct your flow. If you want to
keep away from powerheads you will need to employ a true closed loop
(not from the sump), with an over the top intake much like those used by
canister filters.>
Take good care! Happy New Year!
<Welcome, good
New Year to you too! Scott V.> Re: Closed Loop
information, Return Manifold from Sump 12/31/08
Scott,
Awesome, thanks.
<Pleasure to help out.>
A couple of things.
Check valves, I hear ya, never used them, I will consider your comments.
MegaFlow throughput is supposed to be 600gph. I am not quite sure, guess
I will have to measure it with a flow meter perhaps
<Yeah, 600 gph is
the spiel, 300 is the reality.>
Actually an over the wall CLS is not
out of the question, however after reading several of the threads, even
some of the WWW staff don't like it or didn't seem to.
<They are not
choice #1. They do require priming at the get go and anytime air is
introduced into the line. Put it lower in the tank and you should only
have to prime it the first time unless you drain the tank for some
reason.>
If I were to do it, for space between cabinet and tank, it
would have to be max of 3/4".
<May need multiple intakes depending on
the flow you end up with.>
I would even considering calling Paul in
Canada at Oceans Motions and getting a 4 way Squirt and using something
like a Reeflo or similar low wattage 1200-1500gph pump.
<A nice way
to go.>
Or just 2 SCWD one on each side. Interesting, that way i
could make the return more of a spray bar / surface agitator / back of
tank circulation system. Very similar to drilled closed loops I have
seen. My only worry is in the intake - what is the best recommendation
for not having critters or gunk captured in the piping intake?
<Just
a simple PVC screen.>
The benefit of having it from the sump return
is that the water is pretty much polished before it gets to the pump. I
would imagine similar to slip screen plumbing but I would probably do
one intake on each side of the overflow in gray PVC as to minimize sight
and have less chance of clog or mishap. I am a bit worried about how to
secure the piping runs - with a tight canopy and no ledge... super
Velcro?
<I actually use the little peel and stick zip tie mounts
found at the hardware stores. The things stick like crazy to just about
anything. Just stick it and then zip tie your plumbing in place.>
Anyway, the only drawback really is external pump space and any minor
leaking - I guess I could use a couple of high powered submersibles also
and plop in the sump.
<One reason to go with submersibles, but with
proper plumbing it really is not a concern.>
Perhaps even some of
that nifty flex PVC.
<Good stuff, can be a lifesaver.>
I also had
not considered until just this moment the impact from dual 250w halides
about 9" from the PVC - wonder if that will impact heat :).
<Will be
fine.>
HNY
Bill
<Happy New Year to you too! Have fun, Scott V.>
Plumbing, Sump/Closed loop 9/18/08
Hello
<Keith>
Thank
you all for this invaluable resource.
I have just finished moving and
built the stand for my tanks. I have a 150 oceanic AGA with dual 1.5”
overflows sitting above a 180g AGA with a single 1.5” overflow. I am
planning on the top tank being my display reef tank and the 180 on the
bottom will be a refugium.
<Wow, nice!>
Since the 180 only has a
single overflow I was planning on having one of the overflows from the
display run straight into the fuge then the other lead directly into the
sump skimmer chamber. The refuge would drain to the sump and join the
skimmed water to be pumped back into the display.
<This sounds
good.>
My question is I don’t think that the 1” returns on the
display will create enough water movement but I would already have to
tee the return to get to both sides of the tank would I be able to plumb
in a closed loop manifold with this system?
<You could certainly
plumb a return manifold, a Calfo article discussing exactly this:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm.>
What pump would you suggest
for the set up I have and do you see any problems with it?
<You will
likely want an external for this, something comparable to the Iwaki
MD30rlxt. A few things to note however. I usually do not encourage
people to run too much flow through the sump merely due to the
difficultly managing the flow in the sump. With a 180 gal sump this will
not be an issue. If you do want to run all the flow you may need
(depends on what you want to keep) through the sump, you will want to
drill for a few more bulkheads, likely 2”. Your two 1.5” bulkheads get
you a safe 1500 gph, but that leaves no redundancy. Personally I would
not run more than 700 gph through the existing throughputs, this leaves
a 100% margin for safety. If you don’t wish to drill you can run a true
closed loop (water from the tank to a pump back to the tank) or throw in
a few powerheads to supplement the flow.>
Keith Fontes
<Scott V.>
New Tank
Flow Problem…Powering The Return Manifold – 04/05/08
Dear WWM
Crew,
<<Morning, Scott>>
I am setting up a new 90 gallon reef tank
and installed a Calfo Manifold, which I think will work great.
<<If
configured correctly, yes…I would agree>>
I love the clean design of
the manifold.
<<Me too…solves the issues of powerheads in the
display. Although it’s not suited to “every” application (e.g. – some
living-area installations where a big/powerful pump might be too
noisy)>>
The problem is I am using an Eheim 1262 pump as the return
and am getting pretty weak flow out of the manifold.
<<Mmm, yes…
These are wonderful pumps (and wonderfully quiet!), but after headloss I
imagine you have little more flow than that need to power no more than a
couple ½” nozzles effectively>>
Obviously, the pump is too small.
<<Agreed…and would help me greatly to know the size and number of output
nozzles on your manifold. A good general rule-of-thumb is to allow
350+gph for each ½” nozzle, or 650+gph for each ¾” nozzle>>
I'm
considering switching to a larger Mag-Drive, but I saw comment in a FAQ
about using 2 return pumps.
<<Hmm…plumbed in what manner, I wonder?>>
I could add a second Eheim to the sump, but am not sure how to approach
the plumbing into the manifold.
<<Plumbing the pumps in “series”
might be the best configuration to reduce the likelihood of working the
pumps against each other, though I think you will still lose some
efficiency. I think you would be better off simply acquiring a larger
pump suited to your needs/the requirements of the return manifold>>
This is the point where I could use some expert advice from the Crew.
<<My advice is use “one pump” of sufficient size, based on the
guidelines for flow I have provided>>
Should I just go to the larger
Mag-Drive, or add a second Eheim to the mix and plumb it into the same
return line as the other Eheim?
<<The first option>>
How many GPH
do you recommend to get adequate flow from the manifold so I can be
forever free of power heads?
<<As I indicated above, you need to
provide more info for me to make a recommendation here>>
This being a
new tank, I really want to get it right before starting to add stock.
Thanks much for your help,
Scott
<<Happy to assist, Scott…and do
write back with the specs of your project for further discussion if you
wish. EricR>>
Re: New Tank Flow Problem...Powering The Return Manifold - 04/06/08
Thanks much, Eric.
<<Welcome, Scott>>
I have 4-1/2" nozzles fitted
with Loc-line fittings with valves to adjust the flow as needed.
<<Ah, okay…then you need a pump that will provide at least 1400gph,
after headloss. I recommend getting something in the 2400gph range and
installing a gate-valve on the output side to adjust flow if needed.
Better to go bigger than you need and temper the flow than to go too
small. Besides, you will be glad to have the extra power once the
plumbing lines coat with organic matter…you can simply increase flow
with the valve to compensate>>
The output from the pump is 3/4"
feeding into 1/2" line for the manifold. I am also bleeding off some of
the main pump flow into a refugium.
<<Mmm…all the more reason for a
larger pump>>
I'm thinking to pursue a Mag-Drive 18 pump, which
produces 1,375 GPH at 4' head (according to the manufacturer).
<<Too
small…I think you will be disappointed in the performance of the
manifold with this pump>>
I think the Mag-Drive 24 might be overkill,
but I would hate to under-buy AGAIN!
<<Indeed>>
I also have to be
careful of overwhelming the overflow (single 1 1/2" drain).
<<Ah
well…this “is” your limiting factor. The single 1.5” drain means your
flow is restricted to a mere 700gph…not nearly enough to power the
return manifold. To make this work, you will need to plumb the manifold
as a “closed-loop” rather than an open-loop through the sump>>
I also
looked at the Ocean Runner 6500 (1700 GPH) based on some posts in FAQ's.
I'm not as familiar with these pumps.
<<A very good brand of pump,
in my opinion…and preferred over the Mag-Drive but for the size
limitation>>
Of the two, what would be your preference?
<<As
stated…you will need to go with the larger Mag-Drive, and plumb the
manifold as a closed-loop>>
Thanks,
Scott
<<Happy to help…if
you have more questions re the closed-loop, you know where to find me.
Eric Russell>>
Plumbing A Closed-Loop Manifold In A 90 Gallon Acrylic Show Tank –
01/28/08
Hello Crew,
<<Howdy Mark!>>
I need some
suggestions regarding the installation of a closed-loop manifold.
<<Okay>>
Have read for hours looking for a similar question but
didn't find one. I have a 90 gal acrylic show tank with a center
overflow. The tank is not set up yet and is going to be totally
enclosed in custom cabinets (like an entertainment center) with a
flipper door in front for access to the top of the tank.
<<I
see…sounds nice>>
I'm going to drill the back several inches
below the water line for a 1.5" bulkhead w/suction strainer to feed
a MAG 18. I'm using a 1.5" bulkhead instead of 1" in case I want
more flow later, but will reduce the size to 1" for the inlet of the
MAG 18.
<<Sounds fine>>
I plan on using the existing
predrilled .75” bulkhead to return water from the MAG 18 back
through the overflow into my closed-loop.
<<I think you will
likely find this will reduce the output of “this” pump somewhat>>
I want to connect the closed-loop with the return line via a short
section of flexible clear tubing since the manifold will sit higher
in the tank than the return hole in the front of the overflow.
<<Understood…but do consider using something opaque rather than
clear, so algae will be less likely to accumulate in the line>>
I
have 6, half-inch lock-line nozzles to use in the manifold,
connected to .75" PVC pipe.
<<Too many… You need to figure “at
least” 350 gph per ½” nozzle to get any kind of useful flow. Even
with no headloss, this pump comes up shy on the flow rate for this
many nozzles>>
The problem I have is with the "show" tank. There
are only two openings in the top of the tank in which to get my loop
into the tank. I will not be able to pre-build/glue the PVC manifold
outside the tank and then place it inside. It simply would not fit
through either opening. I don't like the idea of having to glue the
PVC while it's inside the tank, to risky.
<<Mmm, yes…good chance
for marring the acrylic>>
I don't want to spill/splatter/drip
solvent on the acrylic walls.
<<Indeed>>
My question is, how
have others gotten around this?
<<When I installed my in-wall
375g acrylic reef display tank I originally built and installed a
closed-loop manifold for it (later removed once I figured out a pump
large enough to “power” it was just too noisy for the location). The
way I got around the restrictiveness of the acrylic design (wide
aprons/top bracing) was to lay the manifold atop the tank with the
nozzles protruding down through holes drilled in the apron/bracing
for this purpose>>
I don't like the fact that if I put the
manifold inside and glue it, I can't get it out of the tank without
cutting it and I don't want to use unions because they would be
visible.
<<Agreed…best to keep the manifold on the outside of the
tank>>
I'm trying to keep the manifold out of sight as much as
possible.
<<Placing the manifold on top of the tank means only
the nozzles will be visible within>>
My other question is how to
support the plumbing in a tank without a plastic lip running around
it as with a glass tank. I'm not really keen on drilling holes in
the top to install zip ties. I had a thought of making some acrylic
brackets to glue inside the top, but had the same concerns about
dripping, splattering, etc. Is there a more, less permanent, way to
install a closed-loop in a tank like this?
<<Yes…with the return
manifold supported on top as explained>>
Do you simply just not
glue all of the joints?
<<No…should one come apart, think of the
mess…>>
Another question.
<<Okay>>
I think I know the
answer.
<<Oh?>>
Can I run my MAG 7 from the sump back into the
same return line as the MAG 18, or should I drill another hole in
the back of the tank to return the sump water separately.
<<Best
to keep these separate…you don’t want these pumps “fighting” each
other…maintenance of either also becomes more problematical/requires
“both” systems to be down>>
I'm cringing about drilling holes in
a new tank!
<<Understandable…it also voids your warranty>>
My
gut tells me they need to be separated so the pumps don't fight each
other.
<<bingo>>
The sump is fed from a 1.5" drain in the
overflow. I'm drilling the stock 1" drain out to 1.5" per your
suggestions and installing a stand pipe for noise reduction.
<<Ah, excellent>>
Thanks for a great resource, and thanks for all
the great ideas!
Mark
<<Do let me know if you need more
clarification re the return manifold “atop” the tank or anything
else stated. Good luck with your project, Eric Russell>>
Re: Plumbing A Closed-Loop Manifold In A 90 Gallon Acrylic Show Tank
- 01/31/08
Eric,
<<Hello Mark>>
Thanks for the ideas
and input.
<<Quite welcome>>
I was calculating my 1/2" nozzles
at 300gpm based on 1800gpm at the pump.
<<I see…but this does not
allow for headloss. I can only speculate without knowing the
specifics of your whole plumbing design, but you can probably figure
on losing at least a third of the pumps rated capacity due to
friction and gravity…all greatly related to the length and height of
the runs. At best, this limits you to four ½” nozzles with the pump
you have selected (MagDrive18)>>
Have seen the range of 300-350
per outlet for this size posted.
<<Indeed…but better to lean
towards the high-side when possible>>
I was on the low
side...should probably drop back to 4 nozzles to get more velocity
at the outlets
<<Yes…and even then, you will likely still be on
the low-side>>
...was thinking that if I had more outlets around
such a short tank (48x18x24) that sacrificing a little velocity for
more outlets would generate more turbidity with the streams being
aimed at/across each other.
<<Just doesn’t work that way I’m
afraid…the loss of flow/velocity of even “one too many nozzles” is
tremendous. But… You needn’t just take my word for it. Install as
many nozzles as you want or think you might need for a later pump
upgrade and see how the –loop performs with your current pump…you
can always “cap” nozzles as needed to obtain the necessary
velocity…and having “extras” will allow for future adjustments as
the corals grow>>
I like the idea of having the manifold around
the top...had thought of that but also thought that it may be
susceptible to salt creep and ruled it out.
<<EVERYTHING is
susceptible to salt-creep my friend [grin]. But it won’t be all that
bad, really…and beats having the entire return manifold exposed
within the tank>>
To keep that from happening I guess you could
use 1/2" bulkheads in four spots
<<Hmm, a very interesting
thought… But one problem I see with this is how to “attach” the
–loop to the bulkheads. The nozzles could be friction-fit to the
bulkheads on the inside of the tank, but the manifold atop the tank
would need something more secure. You could solvent-weld the
manifold in place but then it can’t be easily removed/moved out of
the way if/when needed. You could install unions…but this would
likely raise-up the manifold to the extent it becomes a pain to
access the tank. If you truly want a “seal” around the nozzles where
they extend through the top, look in to flex tank adapters, also
called Uniseals. These come in various sizes to fit common PVC pipe
diameters and are installed as a “push fit.” Once you install the
Uniseal and insert the pipe you have a watertight seal>>
.....but
then again drilling the tank close to the edge isn't a good practice
either.
<<No need to get up next to the edge…drill the holes
midway between the tank edge and the edge of the top perimeter brace
and you should be fine>>
So...I'll give....how'd you do it?
<<I drilled through the top perimeter brace of the tank for each
nozzle…a little more than an inch in from the tank sides>>
Pump
literature says to use 1 1/2" plumbing at the outlet of the pump.
Could reduce 1 1/2" into 1" around the top and then reduce to 1/2"
at each outlet. Would be less loss at the pump...but seems a bit
big?
<<Agreed…I would go ahead and use ¾” pipe for the manifold
with the ½” nozzles, and size pump as necessary>>
Was originally
planning on 3/4" around the top and then 1/2" at outlets.
<<Works
for me!>>
Thanks again,
Mark
<<A pleasure to share. Eric
Russell>>
R2: Plumbing A Closed-Loop Manifold In A 90 Gallon Acrylic Show Tank
- 01/31/08
Thanks Eric,
<<Welcome Mark>>
I'll look into
the Uniseal concept.
<<Good deal>>
Did you just drill holes
big enough for the outlet of a tee to pass through the top and leave
it unsealed or did you fasten the plumbing to the hole somehow?
<<Just the hole… The weight of the manifold holds it in place quite
well… And splashing/salt creep was not much of an issue at all>>
What would be cool is if you could get a 90 street ell with a
bulkhead nut. You can get these for hydraulic apps to go through
panels and such with hoses...not sure they do that for PVC....never
seen it anyway
<<Neither have I>>
...but then again I didn't
know about the Uniseal either.
<<Wonderful devices… Some of the
high-end skimmer manufacturers use these in their skimmer
construction>>
Maybe we could make them...business opportunity!
<<Would think it would be a simple matter to cement the PVC
street-ell to the nut>>
What would really be neat is making a
chamber in the top of the tank that provides a pre-fabricated
manifold into the top piece prior to assembly to the walls. It would
add a few inches of height to the tank but if you keep the overflows
below it you'd never see it.
<<An interesting
idea/concept/design>>
Would have to increase the height of the
canopy to cover it...but that’s easy.
<<Indeed>>
As far as
losses go, there shouldn't be a tremendous amount of head loss...at
least not like there is returning from a sump. With the suction side
flooded from water near the top...the delta Z in old Bernoulli's
equation isn't but a few inches from the suction side to the
manifold height...i.e. the water is falling about as far as the pump
has to return it.
This loss should be negligible. All you're left
with is a few feet of head from frictional losses maybe, 3 to 4' max
the Mag 18 should do about 1300gpm which for 4 nozzles gives you
325gpm worst case. Sound logical?
<<Mmm, yes…and about as much as
I would expect from this pump “returning from a sump.” I’ll admit I
don’t have a good grasp of Bernoulli’s equation (What I have read
seems to calculate the “power” of a pump/flow based on height,
distance of fall, initial velocity, etc.), but the pump must still
overcome gravity and mass to push the water back to the tank>>
Should I just put the nozzles in all 4 corners?
Mark
<<This is
how I would do it…it will provide the most function/flexibility
while being the least obtrusive configuration. EricR>> |
Plumbing A Closed-Loop Manifold – 01/15/08
Hi Crew,
<<Hello
Jim>>
I've been reading Anthony's page about a closed-loop return
manifold, and I am planning to build one.
<<Neat... Can be quite
useful>>
I just had a couple quick questions after reading the
article.
<<Okay>>
First: I have a Perfecto 150H "Reef Ready,"
which is woefully inadequate, as Anthony said. It had one overflow, with
a 1.25 inch drain and a 1" return.
<<Hmm…but still, better than those
“other” reef-ready with 1” drains and ¾” returns that abound>>
Warns
to run no more than 600 GPH.
<<I’m impressed…most would state about
double this…though I’m inclined to say something closer to 500gph would
be prudent>>
Well, I slightly widened the slots in the outer wall,
and slightly lowered the top of the inner wall, and drilled another air
hole in the elbow at the top of the drain, and I think I am draining
closer to 700GPH, but that's maxed.
<<Really? But at what cost
(noise/bubbles)? Do perform a test to confirm to confirm (time the
filling of a vessel of known volume)…I would be interested in your
findings>>
Since I am planning a manifold return, and am setting up a
DIY recirculating skimmer, which I would love to simply gravity feed, is
there some particular reason why it would be a bad idea to cut the top
off the return, maybe 1.5-2 inches below the opening on the main return,
and use it as a bubble-free drain for the skimmer (with a valve)?
<<You mean as in having the tank drain flow directly in to the skimmer?
Nope, I don’t think this is a bad idea at all…assuming the skimmer is
designed for such>>
Second: I am planning a complete loop around the
top of the tank, as suggested. I was planning to include 9 tees--four
across the back, one at each end, and three across the front. I was
planning to use 1/2" PVC or even CPVC to extend two of the tees down
behind the rockwork, where elbows could be used to direct some water
around inside to clear out detritus.
<<Mmm, I don’t think this will
work as desired. The resistance/backpressure from the water in the pipe
extended below the waterline will render the flow all but useless at
these two nozzles. If you wish to do this, the two “submerged” nozzles
will need to be isolated from the rest of the loop and provided with
their own pump>>
I was going to use loc-line on the remaining seven,
with flat flares on the rear two and round nozzles on the sides and
front. Is there any reason not to do the "down behind the rockwork"
thing?
<<Only for the reason stated…but can surely be done as a
“separate” closed-loop>>
Is 7 nozzles too many?
<<Seven nozzles
are fine…though the efficacy of this closed-loop will depend on the size
of the pump employed. ½” nozzles will require a pump capable of
providing at least 350pgh “per nozzle” after headloss. ¾” nozzles will
require at least 650gph per nozzle after headloss>>
Would 1/2"
loc-line be adequate, or would I need to use 3/4" (1/2" is so much
cheaper, but I don't want to invest so much time and effort and go too
cheap on the nozzles)?
<<1/2” will be fine…>>
I am using a
submersible pump rated for 1300 gallons, which I figure should be
pumping 900-1000 gallons when I am done.
<<Mmm, that means no more
than about two ½” nozzles on the loop else flow will be “feeble” at
best. To provide adequate flow volume to seven ½” nozzles, you will need
to start with a pump in the 3000gph range…maybe larger, depending on its
power/susceptibility to headloss>>
Thanks so much!
Jim
<<Happy
to assist. EricR>>
Re:
Plumbing A Closed-Loop Manifold – 01/15/08
Hi Eric,
<<Hey
Jim!>>
I also like the idea of gravity feeding the skimmer directly
off the tank; my specific question was: is there any reason it's not a
good idea to chop the top off the "return" and use it as a drain?
<<Ah! Sorry mate…didn’t “get it” the first time. And to answer your
question…no reason at all “not” to do as you describe. Of course, I’m
sure you understand this means you will have to fashion some type of
“over the top” return from the pump>>
As for number of nozzles, ½”
should have 350GPH each?
<<Afraid so…if you wish to have any kind of
force/useful flow from the nozzles>>
Because I was planning to run
this manifold using the return off my sump, but I know there is no way I
will get much over 1000GPH input, even using both bulkheads for drains,
and I don't have any additional drains right now.
<<Mmm, yes…and do
understand, a “return manifold” does NOT constitute a closed-loop when
fed from an open sump return pump (the word “closed” is quite definitive
here). This changes things greatly as you are no longer limited by the
size of the return pump, but rather by the size/capacity of the drains
leading to the sump. In your case, if you use both throughputs (1.25” &
1”), you will be limited to something in the 800gph range after
headloss…meaning two ½” nozzles on the manifold, at best>>
I guess I
could set this up as a separate closed loop, isolated from the sump
return?
<<To be a “true” closed-loop, yes…and to get the flow you
want, definitely>>
How would I plumb the intake?
<<Best done
through the side/back of the tank. It can be placed as “deep” as you
like, though you should keep access for maintenance/clearing blockages
in mind before burying it at the base of the live rock>>
The tank is
already running, and I am too scared to drill it anyway (took three
years of saving my pennies to get it).
<<Pity…is easier than many
folks think (and only requires a “partial” drain of the tank)…but I do
understand your hesitation re>>
An overflow (or several, more
likely)?
<<Theoretically, a feed to the closed-loop pump via a siphon
overflow “is” possible (plumb the pump directly to the bottom of the
external box), but finding one suitable for the typically high flow
rates involved will be a challenge for sure. Perhaps a DIY rig spanning
the length of the tank back and fed by a dozen or so 1” siphon tubes
(number depending on pump flow rate) spread along that length…but, this
would have the potential to be very unsightly from within the tank…and
probably a maintenance nightmare to keep all the tubes running>>
Thanks again.
<<Hope this proves helpful…do let me know if you want
to discuss other options. I will state that for tanks of this size and
somewhat larger, requiring several to even a couple tens of thousands of
gallons-per-hour water flow…nothing beats Tunze Stream pumps for
high-flow efficiency, power savings, simplicity of installation, and
quietness of operation…in my humble opinion. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Closed-Loop questions 1/11/08
Crew,
<Joe>
I am currently in
the process of setting up a 210 gallon AGA tank. I want to drill the
tank for two different closed loop systems. The first will be a spray
bar along the bottom of the tank that the live rock will be built up
around. (was thinking that I will run this in 3/4" PVC with a flow of
about 1500gph or so)
<I would make it 1” pvc for this flow.>
This
will keep the rock from building up wastes. The second will be a system
of Anthony Calfo's design around the top of the tank. (was thinking that
I will run the manifold in 1" PVC with 1/2" nozzles, or should I go with
3/4" nozzles?)
<Depends on the number of output desired. For 3500 gph
I would go with five ¾” or eight to nine ½” outputs.>
(If I go with
1/2" I am figuring about 10 nozzles for a flow of about 3500gph, 350 per
nozzle) That said, my questions are these; can I run both loops off of
the same pump?
<Yes, with the amount of outputs a very large pump.>
I would much rather purchase one pump than two since they are not cheap.
I was thinking about running both loops off of a Sequence Hammerhead
pump with ball valves on each loop so that I can adjust the flow Going
to each. Will this work or would I be better with two separate pumps?
<Two pumps has its advantages. If one pump fails you still have
circulation while waiting for a replacement/repair. Consider running two
Darts, or even a Dart and Snapper for this application, this will make
intake plumbing easier also.>
Where should I place my intakes? I
would like to hide them but then again I don't want to tear my reef
apart to clean them so I was thinking of just putting them about 3/4 of
the way up the back of the tank.
<I would be sure to place them in a
position for easy cleaning.>
What size should the intakes be and how
many? The hammerhead has 1 1/2" threaded connections so I was thinking
that I would have 4 intakes drilled in the back of the tank for 1 1/2"
or even 2" bulkheads and tie them all together to feed the pump.
<I
would opt for two 2” intakes here. The same for the dual pumps.>
This
way the flow at any one intake is not enough to suck up any animals. So
the back of my tank would like something like this,
_______________________________________________
[ ]
[ X X X X ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]
[ O ]
[______________________________________________]
In this simple
diagram the Xs are my intakes and the O is my return for the spray bar
(should I make the spray bar return an 1 1/2 bulkhead and then choke it
down or should I choke down before the bulkhead?)
<After the
bulkhead.>
The return for Anthony’s loop will come up over the back
of the tank.
One other questions, I have not yet purchased the
skimmer for this tank. I want a really powerful skimmer as this will be
a almost entirely SPS tank, I was thinking of a ASM G-5 or a Lifereef
VS3-36. What skimmer would you recommend for this tank?
<I really
like the ASM skimmers, I would also be considering a Euro-Reef as well.>
Thanks for all your help.
Joe
<Welcome, good luck, Scott V.>
Spraybar/Closed-Loop Questions – 01/08/07
Crew,
<<Hiya Joe>>
First I just want to say that the web site is fantastic.
<<We’re
pleased you think so>>
I have found it a great resource as I have
been setting up my various tanks. I am currently in the process of
moving up from a 90 gal reef to a 210 gal AGA Mega-Flow tank.
<<Excellent…and since you have been reading, I assume you know how many
of us consider the “Mega-flow” moniker to be a misnomer>>
The tank is
going to be a mostly SPS dominated tank so I want to have two separate
closed-loop systems in the tank.
<<Okay>>
One will be a spray bar
system that the live rock will be placed around to keep waste from
settling anywhere in the rock. My questions on this system are; where
should I place my intake (could it be placed inside the Mega-Flow to
hide it or would the Mega-Flow not be able to keep up?) and how large
should the intake be?
<<Don’t place the intake for your closed-loop
in the drain overflow box…the box is not designed to handle the
additional flow. Otherwise, you can position the intake anywhere you
like…though low-down on the back/sides will likely be easiest to
hide/disguise. As for size…match the closed-loop intake to the size of
the pump intake>>
How large should the piping for the whole spray bar
be (I was leaning toward 1")?
<<For the spraybar itself I would think
¾” pipe would be sufficient, as well as less obtrusive. The pipe
feeding/leading up to the spraybar should be “at least” as large as the
pumps output nozzle>>
How large will my pump need to be (I was think
something around 3500gph)?
<<Generally, the size of the pump for a
closed-loop is determined by the number and size of the flow nozzles…but
a spraybar will not be so easy to calculate I think. Obviously the size
and number of perforations in the pipe will ultimately determine the
“force” of the flow…and is quite easily adjusted for here as compared to
a conventional “loop.” I think you can use about any size pump you like
and “experiment” with the spraybar to achieve the best results re. But
personally, I think 1200-1500 gph for the spraybar would be
sufficient…reserving the/a larger pump for your other closed-loop>>
Should the spray bar be fed with one or two returns?
<<Either way is
fine, though a “pair” of returns to feed the pump offers some redundancy
as well as a decrease in suction/danger to your livestock>>
Lastly,
is this system compatible with a deep sand bed (I feel like it should be
as long as I lift it 5" or so off the bottom to allow for the sand and
keep the holes pointed up)?
<<Indeed…as long as you take the flow
direction in to consideration as you mention>>
The second closed-loop
system will be of Anthony Calfo's design along the top of the tank to
provide random flow.
<<Excellent>>
My questions for this system
are the same questions about intake (placement, size).
<<And my
answers are the same>>
The same question about pump size?
<<As
stated…determined by number and size of flow nozzles. You should figure
(after headloss) about 350gph per ½” nozzle and about 650 gph per ¾”
nozzle in order to achieve enough “force” to create a purposeful flow>>
How many nozzles should be on the system (the tank is 6' x 2')
<<I
would employ at least six…eight if you have the pump for it>>
What
size should the piping and nozzles be (I was thinking 1" or 1 1/2"
piping to 3/4" nozzles)?
<<Again, match the feed pipe to the output
nozzle of the pump (or slightly larger if you wish). The ¾” nozzles will
be fine if a large enough pump is used, but on all but very large
systems my preference is to use ½” nozzles…less intrusive, more forceful
flow, can add more per a given pump size>>
Do you think that this is
a good setup for a SPS tank?
<<Match your nozzles and pumps correctly
and these closed-loops should serve well>>
Please let me know if
there is some way better for me to be doing this.
Thanks so much for
the help.
Joe
<<Happy to share. EricR>>
Drilling For A Closed-Loop...Use The Correct Bit Size – 12/12/07
Hello,
<<Hiya Steve>>
I recently purchased a used 100 gallon long
tank (60” x 20” x 20”) and am in the planning stage. I would like to
bring the tank to my local glass shop to have it drilled for the closed
loop. (I really like the neat appearance of a tank with a drilled closed
loop & no power heads or PVC to look at.) I will be using a Pan World
50PX-X external pump. I calculate around 775 gph after head loss.
<<Hmm, with this flow rate you should only expect to use a couple ½”
nozzles or a single ¾” nozzle for the return, and still have any useful
force/strength to the flow. A good rule-of-thumb is to figure 350gph per
½” nozzle and 650gph per ¾” nozzle. Much less than this, and the water
won’t exit with enough “force” to have much effect>>
(My return from
the sump will be running through a Mag 9.5 and should turn around 570
gph after head loss.) I am planning to drill three holes in the back
glass for 1” bulkheads.
<<This size throughput should be fine for the
closed-loop, but do consider 1 ½” bulkheads or larger for any “gravity”
drain lines>>
One will be an intake with an overflow strainer located
dead center, about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the tank.
(Should I use two intakes instead of one?)
<<One throughput for the
pump intake is fine, but to minimize effects from
obstructions/blockages, consider using a wye-fitting and “two” bulkhead
strainers to supply the intake>>
The other two will be returns
drilled 2/3 of the way up 15” from either side. Problem: My local glass
shop only has a 2” drill bit and the manufacturer of my bulkheads
suggests a 1 ¾” hole.
<<Yes...this is the correct size for the
fitting>>
It seems to me that the 2” inch hole may work, but I would
like a second opinion on this. I have successfully used a one inch
bulkhead in a 2” hole on a 29 gallon tank, but this tank would be much
more expensive to replace if a problem occurs.
<<I don’t recommend
this, the 2” hole provides too much play/removes too much material
behind the rim/lip of the bulkhead for a strong and secure seal. Best to
use the correct size bit for the bulkhead. A correct bit can be
purchased for around $50...perhaps you can offer to buy the bit and let
the glass shop keep it for drilling the holes...>>
I have also
considered just drilling one hole for the intake and running the returns
over the back, although this is not my first choice.
<<This will
work...though I like your first option better>>
Thanks for taking the
time to guide me.
<<Hope it helps>>
Your advice is greatly
appreciated.
Steve
<<Happy to share. EricR>>
Re: Drilling For A Closed-Loop...Use The Correct Bit Size - 12/12/07
Thanks for the great help!!!
<<Hope it proves worthy>>
I took your
advice and ordered the 1 3/4 inch bit.
<<Ah, very good mate>>
I do
plan on using 1/2 inch nozzles on the two returns from the closed-loop.
<<Is best>>
Do you think that 775 gph (after head loss) will be
sufficient?
<<This will depend much on species kept, placement in the
tank, aquascaping… But coupled with the flow from your sump return it
will likely be fine>>
I don't want to add powerheads to the tank
later.
<<Understood>>
(My inhabitants will be mostly softies that
I will transfer from my 55 gallon. Here is a pic of my 55
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd214/SFontana1/55-1.jpg.)
<<Very
nice, though if I may… That Rose Anemone should be in a tank of its own…
And the Sun Coral colony will require direct feeding for long-term
health…>>
The 100 gallon tank I purchased is reef ready.
<<Yes,
well…a common misnomer>>
It came with one corner overflow, containing
a 1" drain and a 1/2" return.
<<My case in point… These throughputs
are hardly adequate on their own for reef type flow, like the term “reef
ready” would have you think. Consequently, these throughputs will limit
the size return pump to something that will provide no more than 300gph
after headloss>>
If both bulkheads were one inch, I would make them
both drains. Would it be worth it to convert the 1/2" bulkhead to a
drain??
<<Only if you want to maximize the capacity re…though any
increase will be very marginal with the addition of a ½” bulkhead
drain>>
I guess I could always drill another hole on the opposite
side of the tank close to the water line for a second drain and use a
strainer fitting.
<<Ahh…now you’re talking!>>
What would you
suggest?
<<Another 1 ½” bulkhead to supplement the drain, as you
describe>>
Thanks for taking the time to help.
Steve
<<Always
a pleasure. Eric Russell>>
Water return manifold question 10/31/07
After reading Anthony's
article "Plumbing a Water Return Manifold - goodbye powerheads!" I
decided to have a go at it. I found it to be rather loud, so I inserted
PVC into the "T's" so that the water would flow into the tank below the
water line. This solved the noise problem (along with the stand pipe I
found out about here-thanks!). But my question is: without agitation at
the surface, will there be enough o2? Even with the overflow box there
seems to be no water movement on the surface. If I take out the PVC (so
water comes into the tank above the surface) there seems to be enough
movement... but then there's the noise again. If the pump is sufficient
to turn over enough water per hour, should it matter if the surface of
the water is smooth?
<Hi Jen, you will lose some gas exchange with
the calmer surface. It really shouldn’t be a concern with adequate flow
through your overflow and skimmer. If you wish to keep it quiet and
agitate the surface you could put a 45 or 90 degree fitting on the end
of one of the pipes and angle it a little towards the surface or get
some Lockline which will allow you to easily put each output wherever
you would like. Some actually advocate for a calm surface to increase
skimmer performance (surface water being more concentrated through the
overflow to the skimmer).>
Thank you in advance for your answers and
for providing a wealth of information here! Jen
PS- yes, if a woman
can plumb this manifold thing anyone can do it
<Thank you very much.
The two best reefers I know are women. Their tanks are the envy of all
the locals here. If only my wife will plumb my next project...Scott V.>
<Jen, I wanted to edit the spelling of the plumbing product I referred
to, it is Loc-Line. Thanks, Scott V.>
Manifold Question...Flow Rate/Velocity vs. Nozzle Size – 10/04/07
Crew,
<<Hello...whoever you are>>
Thank you in advance.
<<Happy
to help>>
I am in the process of setting up a 240g. fish/reef set up.
I have acquired the Dolphin AMP 4000/3000 for my return pump. It can
pump more GPH using a 2" return line.
<<Mmm yes, 4500gph...but starts
to fall off quickly with head pressure/height (4000gph at only 2ft of
head height)>>
The tank is an acrylic with four equal sized cut outs
on top to accommodate my four MH lights. I am planning on splitting the
return line into two lines, then two off of each of those two, that will
then terminate with one return at each of the four cut-outs.
<<I
see>>
Should I reduce the four terminations to 1.5" or smaller or
leave the whole manifold piped at 2"?
<<I would at least reduce the
terminations/nozzles. Let’s figure with subsequent head-loss from the
plumbing configuration that flow will be reduced to at least 3000gph en
toto...maybe more. A ¾” nozzle requires about 700gph to produce a useful
“velocity” for what you intend, so this is what I suggest you use (4ea.
¾” nozzles at 700gph = 2800gph minimum total flow required). If you find
that your total water flow is reduced further than this then a ½” nozzle
may be required...or switch to a pump with a better pressure rating>>
Will 1.5" give more pressure to better reach the depths of the tank?
<<Not at the terminal ends/as a nozzle size...as explained>>
My
concern is that if I leave all 4 outputs at 2" the GPH will remain the
same but the water will simply be falling out of each return with not
much pressure to agitate tank water.
<<Exactly>>
What do you
think?
<<You have my thoughts re>>
Thanks!
<<Quite welcome.
EricR>> Some General
Questions On Sump/Closed-Loop Plumbing – 07/03/07
Hi.
<<Hello>>
I was wondering if you could please answer a few quick
questions regarding plumbing.
<<Sure…ask away!>>
I am setting up a
135-gallon reef with 55-gallon sump.
<<Very nice>>
Currently the
tank has 4-holes drilled in the upper back glass panel that fit 1-inch
bulkheads.
<<Okay>>
I'm planning on using all 4 as overflows out
of the tank.
<<Do figure only about 300gph per…still, 1200gph is a
LOT of flow to process through the sump (if that is your plan)>>
I
was planning on plumbing 2 of the overflows down into the sump where an
Iwaki rxt30
<<I think you mean the 30RLXT?>>
(19 gallons/minute at
0 head) will return the water back into the tank (approximately 5-feet
head).
<<Be sure to plumb a “gate-valve” on the output side of the
pump to allow tempering of the flow if necessary>>
The other 2
overflows I planned on incorporating into a closed-loop system with
another pump similar to the Iwaki with similar flow rate (I don't have
it yet).
<<Ah! Excellent…but you really only need one of these
throughputs for this purpose>>
Would the two 1-inch overflows per
pump be sufficient to minimize sucking and gurgling noise, or should I
plumb all 4 overflows down into the sump, forget about the closed-loop
and use some powerheads instead?
<<If you keep the flow rate for the
sump drains in the range I suggested you will likely be fine, although
even then sometimes a bit of tweaking (aspirating the lines,
experimenting with different configurations of the termination ends,
etc.) can be necessary due to the vagaries of system design. As for the
closed-loop, a single throughput directly plumbed will be enough to
supply the pump (the fluid dynamics are different than those associated
with “gravity” drains). You could use the last bulkhead to supply the
sump and be even further ahead of the game…or even use it to supply an
in-line refugium>>
Or even a third option: use 3 overflows for the
sump and 1 for a closed-loop with a smaller pump?
<<You can do this
with you current planned pump. Unless there is something about your
design that will restrict the water volume (e.g. – bushing “down” the
pipe size), as long as you match the bulkhead/pipe diameter to the
intake port on the intended pump you should be fine>>
What size (flow
rate) pump would work ok with a 1-inch overflow to minimized gurgling
and sucking noise?
<<As explained…unless the throughputs are
positioned very close to the surface where a very strong pump/flow rate
may create some cavitation. But again, be sure to plumb a gate-valve on
the output side of the pump>>
Also, on the return plumbing from the
sump (and closed-loop if there will be one) should I reduce the 1-inch
return pipe just before it enters the tank after the T, or should the
two pipes putting water into the tank remain 1-inch (the output on the
pump is 1-inch)?
<<Reducing the diameter as you indicate often makes
the return easier to handle/place/disguise, but will also reduce
flow/add to head pressure…as will that “T” you mentioned. All the more
reason to slightly oversize your pumps and adjust flow with the
gate-valve if needed. For the closed-loop, to will need to reduce the
terminal ends/nozzles to ½” to achieve a useable velocity…and then
likely no more than two of these (for closed-loop applications figure
about 350 – 400 gph per ½” nozzle)>>
Lastly, should the bulkheads be
slip or thread on the outside of the tank portion?
<<Is up to you>>
I want thread so they can easily be removed just in case, but am worried
about leaks.
<<I wrap my threaded fittings with several layers of
Teflon tape…or you could smear some silicone sealant on the threads just
before assembly and let it cure before use (this doesn’t “glue” the
joint but does help greatly with creating a drip-proof seal>>
Your
expert opinion would be greatly appreciated here.
<<Mmm, don’t
consider myself an expert…but prefer to think of myself as a “student”
of the hobby>>
Thank you
Jon
<<A pleasure to assist. EricR>>
Closed Loop Filtration, SW "filtration"... 5/24/07
Hi Crew!
<Ryan>
I'm going to be building a FOWLR aquarium that
has a requirement of four viewable sides. This means no overflows.
<Mmmm... not really>
I'm going to have to run the plumbing directly
out and back in through the bottom of the tank.
<See>
I've seen
this done using UV and Canister filters inline, however those two aren't
my first choice of filtration. I would like to have a refugium on it,
but I'm not sure how that can be done with a closed loop or with all of
the plumbing coming out of the bottom.
<Not with a "closed" plumbing
arrangement... but one that is "open", sure. You can/could have both
types... two separate sets of plumbing...>
If a refugium is not a
possibility, what are some other filtration mechanisms I could consider?
<Heeeeee! Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm>
Thanks!
Ryan
<Welcome! Bob Fenner> Re: Closed Loop Filtration
5/24/07
Bob/Crew,
Thank you so much for your reply! I have
three addendum
questions.
I realize I could send overflows up
through the bottom of the aquarium
to the place where I would want
the water line, near the top of the tank. However, this tank is going
to be four feet tall.
<Height doesn't matter... functionally... Are
you concerned re appearance?>
(55"L x 24"W x 48"H)
<Yikes...
hard to aquascape and maintain...>
So my questions are:
1) In
your esteemed opinion,
<Steamed more like it>
would glass be a
better cost conscious option over 1.25" acrylic for a tank this tall?
<Mmm, posted... I would go with acrylic myself...>
2) Would you use
an internal overflow for this setup to have better gaseous
exchange/oxygen saturation?
<Mmm, better than what? Likely not an
issue here unless the power goes out or there is a pump failure...>
3) What would be a good method to make a 3'10" overflow and return look
"natural"?
<A bunch of possibilities... one could attach phony
corals, pile up real or faux rock about...>
I'm thinking I could
build pvc structures like the one I have below (best I could do with
clear text) and zip tie live rock around the pvc (not drilling through
the pvc). This would give it an arch like feel and I could hide the
plumbing for the closed loop canister filtration in here as well.
<Yep>
Overflow on left, return on right.
| /
/| /
\
/ | / \
/ | / \
/ | / \
| | | |
Thanks again for your
time and sharing of knowledge!
Ryan
<A pleasure to share... I
would also like to add that if it were mine, I'd "sleeve this
overflow... to "make" the discharge water come from near the bottom...
have an outer pipe notched at the bottom, going over the internal stand
pipe... this one could be drilled to accommodate the zip-ties... Bob
Fenner> Manifold Question. Siphon-Fed Closed-Loop – 05/23/07
Hi: Joe here.
<<Hello Joe...Eric here>>
Thanks for all your
valuable information.
<<Quite welcome...is a collective effort>>
I have a 90-gal tank that I would like to add a "closed-loop" system to.
<<Okay>>
Like many people out there a drilled tank is not an option.
<<I see>>
Anthony’s remarks tell me he hates over-the-tank-lip
systems to an external pump, lots of us have no option.
<<Agreed and
agreed...even if not for the best reasons in some cases>>
Other
members of the crew say it will work.
<<Mmm, I think even Anthony
will concede they work...for a time. The inarguable truth about siphon
overflow systems is they will fail sooner or later. But, there “are”
things we as aquarists can do to mitigate this hazard. Obviously, daily
(when possible) checks of the system to note a decrease/loss of siphon
are critical. But the truly wise hobbyist will also plan for/employ
redundant systems (a concept I’ve come to appreciate much more just
lately). Providing more than one pump input siphon will also reduce the
amount of suction/pull at each intake, thus reducing the hazard to your
fishes/motile inverts>>
I plan on using a Mag 3400 with a 1" intake.
<<Danner Supreme doesn’t manufacture a 3400 model of the Mag-Drive pump,
you must mean a 3600. But that aside...pulling this much water through
siphon overflows is going to prove interesting I think...please do let
me know how things go>>
The outlet will be 1" up to the tank, then
to 3\4" manifold and 1\2" at the nozzles, 6 nozzles.
<<Expect to
need about 350gph “per nozzle” after head-loss, to get any kind of
meaningful flow>>
Is my plan ok?
<<Mmm, maybe...though I don’t
think I’ve ever seen this done this way before. How do you plan to
protect the intakes of the siphon tubes? I don’t think using a skimmer
box is practical giving the amount of flow...perhaps it is best to
simply install something like the screens used on bulkhead fittings>>
I know over-the-tank-lip is not the best, but this is my only choice,
isn’t it?
<<Can’t say...you haven’t provided enough detail about
your tank/setup. If all the tank panels are tempered then yes, this is
about the best you can do aside from going with internal mechanisms like
the Tunze Stream pumps. If the tank is not tempered then what is
preventing you drilling the back panel?>>
Some suggestion is putting
the pump in the tank, but this pump draws 380 watts, and I thought heat
could be a problem.
<<Agreed...along with the trouble of trying to
hide/service the pump in the tank>>
Thanks again for all the great
information.
<<Happy to assist...and as stated, I would be
interested to hear how this project turns out. EricR>> Return
Manifold and Pump Size? - 03/03/07
Hello to all and thanks in
advance,
<<Howdy…and you’re welcome>>
In an effort to rid me
tank of annoying power heads and lower temps I am building a closed-loop
water return manifold in my 55 gal tank (48”l x 12”w x 20”h).
<<Ok>>
The tank is un-drilled so until I move out of this limiting apartment
and upgrade I am sumpless (I refuse to use an overflow box with J or U
tube because I would like my security deposit back when I leave).
<<Hee…indeed!>>
I am building the system out of ¾ in. PVC tubing and
fittings, and going down to ½ in. at the 45 degree elbows coming out of
the T’s. There will be 10 outlets (4 on the front and back and 1 on
each side) with at least 3 or 4 of these being plugged up to allow for
changes in flow when needed later on.
<<Ah…good idea>>
The pump
is either going to be directly behind the tank for ‘0’ head or on the
floor below with 53 in. of head pressure needed.
1- I am trying to
find out what size pump would be needed for something like this. I am
thinking in the 1200 to 1500 GPH range.
<<Figure “at least” 250 gph
per ½” nozzle, plus another 20% for the eventual bio-film buildup in the
manifold piping and this means you need a pump that will provide a
minimum of 1800gph “after” head-loss (This is assuming only six of the
ten nozzles will be open at any one time…otherwise calculate as
necessary)>>
2- Do you think this will be adequate or overkill?
<<Will need to be a bit more in my opinion. But do be sure to plumb a
“gate-valve” on the output side of the pump to temper flow if needed>>
The tank houses 4 damsels and a blue spotted sharp nose puffer (I know
he is not reef safe but he is oh so cute and has yet to even looked
twice at any of the corals <<yet>>), various inverts and some corals
(whose numbers seem to be increasing…ahh the addiction)
3- Also in
purchasing the pump should I be purchasing one rated for pressure or one
for free flowing circulation?
<<I would consider a pressure-rated
pump for the closed-loop…though a “large enough” non pressure-rated pump
will work>>
I am looking at the Japanese Iwaki pumps for more than
one reason, choices are: the MD40RLXT which is a circulating pump rated
at 1,200 GPH, and either the MD55RLT for pressure rated at 1,080 GPH or
MD70RLT – 1,500 GPH. What do you think of these choices?
<<All
great pumps but… The 70RLT should work if you’re willing to cap off a
one or two more nozzles than originally planned, but I think you would
be better off getting the 100RLT for your planned configuration>>
4-
Considering heat transfer and electrical usage do you think it is worth
my time to also be looking at MAG drive pumps?
<<The Japanese
motored Iwaki pumps are fairly economical to run and also surprisingly
cool in my experience and would be my preference here>>
I won’t be having any other pumps running except the MAG – 3 drive that
is on my AquaC Remora Pro protein skimmer. I would rather not be paying
an arm and leg each month to run the tank, but I also don’t want to make
soup of my tank with super high temps, especially come summer time.
<<Understood. Don’t discount the effectiveness of evaporative
cooling…install a couple fans to blow across the surface of the tank to
help keep water temperatures down>>
Once again thank you,
Randy
<<Happy to share. EricR>> Re: Return Manifold and Pump Size?
– 03/26/07
Hello again,
<<Hello Randy>>
Thanks for the
advice given below.
<<Hope it was useful>>
I went ahead and got
myself a slightly used Iwaki MD 100RLT from a fellow reefer to power the
closed-loop (way too expensive to buy a new one).
<<A good choice
and surprisingly quiet for their size/flow-rate... in my experience>>
I am about to upgrade to an Oceanic 72 RR bow front that has the
mega-flow overflow and now some new dilemmas have arisen.
<<Oh?>>
Underneath I am going to be setting up a 10 gallon refugium that will be
fed by a T coming from the tank drain w/ a valve to slow down the rate
and then gravity flowing at a slower rate into a 10 gallon sump
w/protein skimmer, etc.
<<Ok...but rather see use of larger vessels
if possible>>
So now that you have an idea of the setup here are
some questions that I hope you can help me with.
<<I shall try>>
1. Do you think that the Iwaki MD100rlt pump is too much pump to be used
as the return line for my sump?
<<Gosh yes?! The 1” drain in your
“mega” overflow will only handle about 350gph before you start having
issues...and it will certainly NEVER handle the output from a 2000gph
pump like your Iwaki>>
I am torn between attaching my manifold to
the return from the sump, or using a second pump as a return and keeping
the manifold and Iwaki pump on a closed-loop.
<<The latter is your
only choice here...with something like a Mag-5 for your sump-return
pump>>
2. Considering that my manifold was made for a 55-gallon,
three of the four sides fit perfect in the 72-gallon bow front, except
obviously enough the bow side.
<<Yes, but is this really an issue?>>
I am contemplating getting some schedule 20 PVC and using a heat gun to
bend the PVC into the curve needed to flow with the line of the bow and
then cutting in where needed for the T's.
<<I see>>
Do you think
that schedule 20 PVC will be strong enough to handle the pressures, and
do you know if it is strong enough to be able to handle heating it up
and bending it like I want to do?
<<Yes to the first (I can see Bob
cringing)...<I am. Use flexible instead. RMF> I have used this pipe
myself (has a larger inside diameter than SCH-40 of the same diameter,
i.e. allows more water flow) with good/reliable results on straight
unrestricted runs, but I don’t know that it has enough thickness for
bending without becoming too weak/flimsy. But it is cheap enough I
think you should give it a try and determine for yourself...can always
go with SCH-40 if need be. Have you bent PVC before? You will need to
place some type of media “inside” the pipe when you go to bend it to
keep the walls from collapsing...sand often works well and will also
help to hold heat>>
3. In plumbing my refugium I am trying to figure
out if I should have raw water from the tank flow into it, or skimmed
water T'd off from the sump?
<<Raw water from the tank>>
Then
depending on that, where I want the water going as it comes out of it;
into the skimmer compartment or past it to be pumped up to the tank?
<<Directly to the pump chamber to prevent the skimmer from removing
plankton is my choice>>
I figure it should flow past the skimmer to
allow any living matter that escapes a chance to make it up to the tank
and become food.
<<Ah yes...so you do understand>>
I am also
thinking that is should be raw water flowing in because the waste from
above can become food for whatever is living in the refugium. Does my
logic make sense?
<<You’ve already figured it out...yes, makes
sense>>
Thanks in advance for your input,
Randy
<<Always
welcome, Eric Russell>> R2: Return Manifold and Pump
Size? - 03/26/07
In your statement below are you saying you
would rather see one large vessel instead of two, or two larger
individual vessels?
<<Sorry for the confusion mate..."two larger
vessels" was my intent>>
My thinking in the two vessels is that I
can have a fast turnover rate in the sump, and then a slower rate in the
refugium making it a less turbulent area for whatever is in there.
<<Am much in agreement with this logic...just wish you could utilize a
bigger tanks for your sump and refugium (say 29g?)...but if not, the 10g
will suffice>>
I am limited by the stand to either two 10-gallons or
one 20-gallon, so I came up with this plan.
<<Understood my friend>>
One 20 would be simpler, but I feel having the refugium in the sump
compromises both...I would rather have a good sump and a good refugium
then a mediocre combo.
<<You echo my sentiments exactly re
sump/refugium combinations...please proceed as you have planned>>
It
made sense in my head, but please tell me if my thinking is a off here.
<<Not at all>>
Gracias por todos,
Randy
<<Dé la bienvenida
siempre a mi amigo. EricR>>
Combine Closed-Loop Intake and
Sump Drain In Horizontal Overflow? 03/26/07
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I want to first say I think your site is great and it has helped me a
lot in planning my first reef tank.
<<Glad it has been of use>>
I do have a question though that has been somewhat answered but only in
general terms.
<<Ok>>
I am hoping if I give you some specific
details you can tell me if a closed-loop intake in my overflow will work
quietly.
<<Mmmm...I’ll see what I can do>>
I have a horizontal
overflow that is 16 inches long and 4 inches on each side and 4 inches
deep. It will be mounted in the middle of my 50-gallon
(36x15x20). This will give me 24 inches of linear overflow.
<<Agreed>>
It does have teeth cut into it; the cuts are 3/8" wide
and 1 1/4" deep. I know the teeth violate the Calfo-principle but I had
it made before I did all my reading here and would still like to use it.
<<Ha! No worries mate...am sure Anthony will forgive...>>
I was
planning on putting 4-1" bulkheads in the overflow. Two would be used
to drain to the sump, one would do, but I wanted some redundancy.
<<Redundancy is always a good idea>>
The other two would be joined
with a wye to a single 1" flex PVC and go to the closed-loop pump, a
Blueline 40 HD-X capable of 1270gph @ 0' head (1" intake and
output). Using a Mag-3 for the sump return, and the Blueline for the
closed-loop, I am figuring I will actually flow no more than 1100 to
1200 gph. If I used down turned elbows on the drains, will I able to
drain this much water from the overflow and not suck in air or have a
lot of noise?
<<I'm not sure how this configuration will "balance
out." The presence of the closed-loop intake in the skimmer box will
cause more water to be pushed/pulled in than you intend your "sump"
overflows to handle. And though the pump intake may be more
"aggressive" than the gravity drains, I think they will still "drain"
more water than you intend causing noise/bubble issues...and possibly
even "starving" the closed-loop pump which could lead to more
noise/bubble problems. I think it will be better if you don't try to
incorporate the loop intakes in to the overflow box. This configuration
would also recirculate much of the oily surface film through the loop,
rather than letting it go to the sump for the skimmer to remove. Since
the design of a true closed-loop precludes the tank draining in the
event of a power outage/pump failure, I recommend you drill/place the
throughputs for the closed-loop "outside" and below the horizontal
overflow box>>
Should I just not bother trying this and just put two
bulkheads in the overflow and drill the other two below the overflow for
the CLS?
<<Ahh, yes!...is what I would do>>
Thanks WWM crew!
<<Happy to share. EricR>> Closed-Loop Manifold Design Review
(Anthony Calfo) – 03/06/07
Dear Anthony / WWM crew,
<<EricR
here...I’m afraid Antoine has moved on to other enterprises and no
longer fields queries here...but hopefully I can be of assistance to
you...>>
I’m in the process of setting up a 45-gallon tank that is
24”X24” and 18” high. I have a center back overflow, which due to a
miscommunication now only has a 1” drain and a ¾” return as opposed to a
1.5” drain and ¾” return that I’d hoped for.
<<Mmm, indeed
unfortunate...but still a workable configuration>>
This tank is
intended for Frogspawn and Candy Cane corals only, so I’m shooting for
about 500gph flow through the 1” drain and a 15 gallon sump.
<<Is
possible...but I always recommend about 300-350 gph maximum flow through
a 1” gravity to simplify plumbing hassles (noise, et al)>>
I’ve
narrowed my pump choices to either an Iwaki 20RLXT that will flow 450gph
or a Gorman Rupp GRI 510 that will flow 550gph according to Reef
Central’s flow calculator.
<<Hmm, not the manufacturer’s stated flow
rates...I’ll assume this is the flow rate you have figured based on your
plumbing configuration then. Both are good pumps...with the GRI being
“pressure-rated” and this particular Iwaki model not. I think
considering your 1” drain, I would opt for the Iwaki...and do be sure to
plumb a gate-valve on the output side of the pump to temper flow as/if
necessary>>
The top opening of the tank is 17”X16” and I’m planning
to have either 6 or 8 outlets from a ¾” manifold running along the
perimeter of the opening.
<<On a separate pump/closed-loop I
hope? Eight outlets from a ¾” manifold will require at least 4800 gph
after head-loss (based on 600 gph per outlet to achieve meaningful
flow)...and way too much for this tank as well. With the return pumps
you have listed, you are limited to “two” ½” nozzles at most...and even
then I don’t think the flow from each nozzle will be vigorous>>
a) Do I have too may outlets?
<<Yes indeed>>
I’m not sure
how to balance flow per outlet with number of outlets. Would I be
better off with 4 outlets?
<<Not really...the 1” drain on this tank
can not handle the flow required to power a multi-nozzle return
manifold. If your goal is to keep powerheads out of this tank then your
best option...in my opinion...is to plumb a separate closed-loop, or go
with the two 1/2” nozzles as I previously suggested. Which, considering
your stocking plan, would likely be just fine>>
b) According
to Reef Central’s flow calculator, changing the 90-degree bends to
45-degree bends has an insignificant effect on flow rate!!!??? Doesn’t
make sense?
<<Mmm...their calculator also says you can flush 600 gph
down that 1” gravity drain [grin]. I guess it depends on your
definition of insignificant...but I definitely think easing the turns in
the plumbing helps>>
c) I’m planning on using an Aqua Silencer
standpipe and I can’t decide between the 1” version and the 1.5” version
with an adapter to fit my 1” bulkhead…
<<These devices generally
work better if slightly larger than the plumbing lines...I would use the
1.5” device if it will fit your overflow box>>
d) Is 550gph
too much for my tank given the size and livestock?
<<Not in my
opinion>>
Thank you for your help,
Narayan Raja
<<A pleasure
to assist. Eric Russell>> Re: Closed-Loop Manifold Design
Review (Anthony Calfo) – 03/07/07
Thanks Eric!
<<Quite
welcome Narayan>>
But I was hoping for at least 3 nozzles, min of
450gph and no powerheads in the tank.
<<I understand...but at this
flow rate you will be sorely disappointed with the output from three
nozzles>>
I have room to enlarge my drain bulkhead to a 1.25" size,
but there is no such thing that I could find in schedule-40 bulkhead
fittings unfortunately. Is there such a thing...?
<<Have a look at
USPLASTIC.COM...they do have 1.25” bulkhead fittings>>
Having a
second pump and a closed-loop is complicated since my stand will have
very little room left after the sump, pump and ballast.
<<I see>>
I forgot to mention one little detail -the 4" DSB which will reduce the
tank water volume to 31 gallons + sump and it is for the DSB primarily
that I'm concerned about having adequate flow... Sorry.
<<No worries
mate...and a valid concern re the DSB. Perhaps you won’t have a choice
about adding a powerhead or two...>>
Thank You,
Narayan Raja
<<Always welcome. EricR>> Re: Closed-Loop Problem...The
"Meager Flow" Issue - 02/13/07
Good morning Eric and all crew,
<<Hello Mark>>
Thanks for all your help and info, I have also posted
this info on the forum site.
Re: Closed Loop problem Posted: Feb
12, 2007 12:37 PM Reply
Well I have made a few
modifications with very impressive results.
<<Excellent>>
I have
changed all of the output pipe from 0.5" to 1.5" and also removed the
180 degree U-trap at the connection from the pump output to the loop on
top of the tank.
<<Very good>>
The flow rate is now very good,
in-fact, a little too good.
<<Ahh...so your intuition was
correct...and now that I see the pictures I can appreciate the amount of
restriction you had created with the 1/2" pipe>>
I need to extend a
few nozzles because they are to close to the surface and are creating a
huge amount of turbulence and bubbles. I think that this is due to
cavitation.
<<Yes...drawing in air>>
I should have the 0.5"
Loc-Line extensions in today and I can work on this tonight during
"24." Can I post a picture in this thread somehow or I suppose that I
could just direct you to my photobucket site to view the pics -
http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c170/markkrysztofiak/ .
<<Either way mate>>
If it asks for a password, use: elections .
Many thanks,
Mark Krysztofiak
<<Thank you for this
follow-up. Eric Russell>> Manifold Questions – 12/29/06
Dear Crew,
<<Hello>>
Your site is GREAT.
<<A collective
effort…thank you>>
Thank you for such an awesome resource and your
time.
<<We are happy to share>>
I have some Q's re: setting up a
manifold & related pump mechanics.
<<Let’s see if I can be of
service…>>
I have a 135 gal. FOWLR w/ 1200-gph over-flow to sump and
return to tank by 1100-gph external pump. I'd like to use a 2nd
external pump (don’t want the heat/look of a submersible) for the
manifold if possible.
<<Ok>>
I am looking at a Sequence Reeflo
"Dart" pump, rated @ 3,600 gph with only a 160 watt draw. I can’t/won't
drill the tank and don’t really want a 2nd overflow.
<<Well, that
complicates things (though I don’t recommend a siphon overflow for this
application). How do you expect to “feed” this pump?>>
1) I assume
I can't use Dart from existing sump/overflow because the Dart's rating
will overflow my tank unless I add a lot more overflow capacity?
<<Indeed…and even so, if this sump is located in a “living” space you
would likely find the noise from the extra volume to be quite
disagreeable>>
2) Looking at the pic below, can I avoid an overflow
box by just setting the Dart below the PVC siphon line in the tank.
<<I wouldn’t…these pumps are not “self-priming,” and anytime the pump
stops your “prime” is likely to be lost>>
I assume siphon would be
fine once pump is running?
<<Till a power outage…and how do you
propose to start the siphon in the first place?>>
But, would this
set-up maintain siphon in event of a power loss?
<<Is a
gamble. If all the manifold outlets are submerged you “might” be able
to maintain the siphon but there is no certainty. A gravity
drain/below-water throughput is the only way to feed this pump in my
opinion>>
3) If the pump is "self-priming", does this mean it draws
the water from the tank and creates the siphon (or does the pump only
push water that's already reached it)?
<<Do double-check with the
manufacturer, but I’m pretty sure this pump is NOT self-priming and
needs to be “flooded” to function properly>>
3) The pump has a 2"
suction & a 1.5" discharge. I need to take the discharge down to 1/2"
for the manifold. What effect will this have on the flow rate & the
pump life?
<<There will be some decrease in flow as the pump is not
“pressure rated”…not aware/sure of effect on pump life, if any. This is
a popular pump for this application…perhaps you could post this question
among the users of this pump on the reef forums
(reefs.org/reefcentral.com)>>
I assume it decreases flow rate,
increases water pressure and decreases pump life?
Is this ok? (both
for purpose of manifold & pump)?
<<Yes to the first two…and the
increase in pressure is a desirable aspect for use with the manifold>>
4) If my planned set-up does not work for reasons you will explain, can
you please suggest how I would set-up a manifold with my 1200 gph
overflow or is my only option a submersible?
<<Hook the manifold up
to the return from your external sump pump>>
If a submersible, can
you please suggest one?
<<As in “in the tank?” Perhaps one of the
larger Mag-Drive pumps (24, 36)>>
Any guess as to how much
temperature would increase w/ a submersible? (I can't afford a chiller).
<<Could be significant (4-6 degrees)>>
5) Any other help you can
provide would be SO appreciated.
<<You have two options as I see it
Paul. Either drill the tank to feed the additional pump…or simply
design/connect a manifold to be used with the existing sump return
pump>>
Thanks for your help,
Paul
<<I hope it has been
useful. Regards Eric Russell>>
Manifold Plumbing - 01/10/06
WWM Crew,
<<Howdy>>
Bob was kind enough to give me some feedback
concerning a new set up a couple of weeks ago. I'd like to see if I
could bother someone with specific questions about plumbing a closed
loop, water return manifold.
<<No bother, shoot...>>
Given the
Oceanic RR 215 gal. tank is not plumbed to get anywhere near the 20 to
30 times volume per hour I want to support SPS corals,
<<You
wouldn't want this volume of water flushing through your sump anyway.>>
I'd like to add a manifold system instead of using powerheads to
accomplish this.
<<A good approach.>>
For all practical
purposes, I'm considering the 600 GPH I'll be getting from the two 1
inch overflows as insignificant for anything other than operating the
sump.
<<About ideal for this, actually.>>
I've looked at the
data for the Sequence Reeflo Hammerhead (1 1/2" inlet/outlet) and see
that the flow is 5400 GPH @ 5' head. Since this is a closed system, am
I correct in assuming the head will only be from the plumbing or do I
still have to consider the static head (5' from the pump to the top of
the tank) as well?
<<Yep...and add a foot of head to that for about
every 10 feet of horizontal run and again for each elbow/turn.>>
At
any rate, here are a couple of scenarios I have been thinking
about. Please feel free to give me my best option or suggest another if
I've really missed the mark.
<<Okey Dokey>>
Drains: 1 1/2" PVC
all the way to the pump. My understanding is that the fastest way to
burn out a pump is to starve it on the inlet side.
<<True...not to
mention wasting efficiency/flow.>>
I will run pipe across the back
along the bottom of the tank and have four 1 1/2" openings every 24
inches starting in one corner progressing to the opposite corner.
<<Am guessing these will be protected with some type of screen/grate to
keep from sucking up life forms? Also consider how you will be able to
access these later for necessary maintenance/cleaning.>>
The pump
supply will come up the back of the tank at 36" (halfway between the 2
corners), over the edge and down to the pump underneath. In each of
these cases, the drain design will not change.
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |______| |___| |___| |______| |
|___________________________|
-----------------------72"---------------------
For the
manifold, I intend to use 3/4" PVC all the way around the top edge of
the tank (72" x 24") with 14 to 16 - 1/2" openings alternating with 90
and 45 degree elbows to get as much water movement as possible.
<<I
see you've done your homework...necking down the nozzles allows you to
keep water velocity up while allowing you to add more output
locations.>>
I figure this gives me about 350-400 GPH out of each
nozzle for 29" depth of the tank.
<<Excellent...you can always cap
off a nozzle or two if you find it necessary.>>
There has been some
question as to whether I can move 5400 GPH through this manifold using
3/4" diameter pipe.
<<Mmm yes, another reason to use a
pressure-rated high-flow pump. There will be some amount of back
pressure related to the pipe diameter, but a pressure rated pump will
handle this fine...and you need the pressure to power all those
nozzles.>>
Manifold supply:
1. Single 1 1/2" PVC
line running up the back of the tank beside the drain line to the
manifold, bushing down to 3/4".
2. 1 1/2" from pump to the base of
tank, tee to both ends of tank, horizontally, and up the back of the
tank on both ends for two connections to the manifold.
Any feedback
concerning the best plumbing option
<<I would keep it simple and go
with option #1.>>
or better choices concerning the diameter of the
pipe at any point would be appreciated.
<<I think you have all well
in hand.>>
I may be over analyzing this, because every once in a
while I think ultimately, the manifold is only 3/4". What do I gain by
not bushing down the return to 3/4" from the pump, plumb it all with
3/4" and be done with it?
<<This is viable actually, and would
likely have little effect/make a small difference. But may I
suggest... PVC pipe is relatively cheap, why not make up several
configurations and test them to determine which you like/works best.>>
Thank you again for the wonderful resource and all the help.
Sincerely,
Lance Good
<<Good luck with your project, EricR>>
Understanding Closed-Loop Plumbing - 03/08/06
Hi all,
<<Hello>>
As per Anthony's suggestion, I am in the process of
putting together a closed loop system for my 110 reef tank.
<<Great!>>
The tank is drilled for the main overflow to the sump and
for the loop, I will be using an external magnetic drive pump.
<<Okay>>
I was just starting to wonder how I am going to get water
into it? I have looked around, on the web, and the best I can gather is
that just like a canister filter would work, I will plumb with pvc up to
the tank to suck water out
<<Mmm no, not "suck"...you need to plumb
so water will "flood" the pump...as if through a bulkhead in the
back/side of the tank.>>
I guess I will need to use some sort of
screen at the intake correct?
<<A bulkhead screen, yes.>>
The
returns will be a manifold of sorts around the perimeter with flex
nozzles and valves for control. Once plumbed up, do you just plug it
in?
<<Yep>>
I remember from my freshwater days, needing to start
the siphon on canister filters.....does that need to be done here?...or
like I said, just plug her in and let her rip?
<<No siphon, like I
explained...you must flood the pump. If you read through our FAQs on
closed-loops this is/will all be explained.>>
Secondly, is there a
concern, for example like with your sump plumbing (overflow ) in the
event of a power outage? It would seem not, as like in a canister
filter, everything is all sealed up? Is this correct.
<<Yes, but a
"closed-loop" is not plumbed through the sump...please have a look here
(http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbretfaq3.htm)
and among the indices in blue. Regards, EricR>>
Understanding Closed-Loop Plumbing II - 03/09/06
Thanks, but
since drilling is no possible for me to install a bulkhead, can't I
plumb an over the tank? Just like one would with an Eheim or Fluval
canister?
<<But you are not plumbing a "canister"...how will you
prime the pump?...and if you lose siphon you will likely lose the pump
(burn-out).>>
I saw that link on Melev's reef and that seems to be
what he had done.
<<Are we still talking about a closed-loop? I'm
not familiar with the system/method you speak of but if you think it
might work, give it a try.>>
If so, how does one get the water to
start flowing into the pump.
<<Indeed, how?>>
If I remember
correctly, from my days of using Fluvals, one blows into the output end
to start a siphon on the input end.
<<Mmm, maybe...I just fill the
canister with water and fire it up.>>
I had planned on using a Blue
line or GenX pump at about 1100 gph split into two returns and possibly
reducing the returns from 3/4" to 1/2" in order to increase velocity and
turbulence. There is a main return pushing about 1200 gph straight
through a 3/4 " return. What happens in the event of a power failure
with a closed-loop this way?
<<If plumbed as a true
closed-loop...nothing.>>
BTW, the link you gave me did not work.
<<Hmm, just gave it a try, works for me. Please try a Google search
from our home page re "closed-loop". Regards, EricR>>
Inlet
for closed loop manifold - 04/05/2006
Good afternoon WWM
crew.
<Trevor>
I am currently in the planning stages of
engineering a closed loop manifold for my 180 gallon AGA. Through your
extensive FAQ, which is truly priceless, I believe I can successfully
generate the manifold component and also appropriately "size" the pump
for the desired flow rate in the display tank relative to head,
horizontal run, elbows, tees nozzles.
<Yay!>
What I have not
been able to clearly extract out of this wealth of information is the
appropriate inlet size relative to desired flow rates in the display
tank. I have come across information on drain rates through
bulkheads: ~ 300 gph, 750 gph, 1000 gph for 1", 1.5", 2" bulkheads
respectively. Do these aforementioned numbers remain the same if one is
"attempting" to aggressively pull water through the inlet with a pump or
are they based on a flow rate due to gravity's "pull" alone (my
instincts tell me that if most inputs and outputs on external pumps are
1" that a 1"inlet in the display tank should be able to handle whatever
the pump is rated ... but I have been wrong before and I am sure I will
be again)?
<Can't address the last adequately (is a
great question/statement), but you are correct in questioning the intake
sizes as stated if there is any restriction/vacuum consideration... that
is to state, these diameters are idealized for no such restriction,
including intake screening>
If I have a 2" inlet in my display
plumbed directly to the input of a pump of infinite flow rate what would
be the maximum flow rate that could be produce, for simplicity, at the
output of the pump (I am assuming at some point the 2" inlet has to
limit the pumps ability to intake water at a greater flow rate ....
<Let's stop here: about 800-1000 gph...>
or am I wrong and my flow
rate is actually infinite gph)?
<Ah, no. There are practical
limitations, induced drag, sp3 hybridization, Brownian effects,
affinities of water to contend with>
I want to maximize the flow
rate of my closed loop manifold using a 2" inlet from the display
plumbed directly to an external pump, but I do not know what I can
expect to maximally pull through the 2" intake.
<The above values
are about it in practical terms... one can (of course) pull/push more
through a two inch diameter line, but there are other considerations,
principally screening issues, that need to be addressed>
Thank you
in advance for the sharing of your knowledge and experience, again, it
is truly appreciated. Trevor
<Is this clear? You want to avoid
"sucking up livestock", cavitation, drawing in air... Bob Fenner>
Re: inlet for closed loop manifold 4/7/06
Bob,
<Trevor>
Thank you for your time in the reply to my question. And
as it seems standard in the FAQ's forum, questions beget questions.
<Along with some clarity, resolution hopefully>
Upon reflection I
may have mislead you in my statement about appropriately sizing my
external pump for my closed loop manifold in one area ... adjustment for
static head. In reading through Dr. Sanjay Joshi et alt. featured
article "An engineering view of aquarium systems design: pumps and
plumbing" they mention at the end of the article that "a closed
recirculation loop would have zero static head". I do understand how
this could be if an individual were to use a pump on the same horizontal
plane as the recirculation loop.
In designing my closed loop
manifold, with your latest input, I feel that to I am now going to need
to "pull" from three 2" inlets plumbing directly to my external pump to
get the desired flow rate from my closed loop manifold. This added
plumbing will be lowering my external pump from the display water line
by approximately four feet. In my limited, albeit improving, knowledge
of plumbing systems, I would be convinced this should be incorporated in
my equation for total dynamic head. Is this appropriate thinking, and
if yes how have I misinterpreted Dr. Sanjay Joshi et alt. statement
which would seem to contradict my aforementioned thought.
<Mmm,
don't know if I'm following you... just yet. But with the lines filled,
no apparent low-pressure at the intake to the pump volute you should be
fine here>
I feel like the carrot is dangling right in front of me
when looking through the FAQ's from 1/06 but again but I am just unable
to decipher the simplest of things .... "yep"!
Copied from FAQ on
1-6-2006:
I've looked at the data for the Sequence Reeflo Hammerhead
(1 1/2" inlet/outlet) and see that the flow is 5400 GPH @ 5'
head. Since this is a
closed system, am I correct in assuming the
head will only be from the plumbing or do I still have to consider the
static head (5' from the pump to the top of the tank) as well?
<<Yep...and add a foot of head to that for about every 10 feet of
horizontal run and again for each elbow/turn.>>
Is that "yep", he
does need to take into account the five feet when calculating total
dynamic head because it is a closed system. Or is it "yep" he does need
to take the five feet into account when calculating total dynamic head
in his closed loop manifold.
<Am guessing, but I think the responder
is referring to "induced drag" not really "head" per se>
Is pulling
from three 2" inlets drilled into the back of my tank for my closed loop
manifold an appropriate design. I am attempting to supply an external
pump that will drive 2400-3000gph out of my manifold.
<This is a
bunch of water/flow... to move through a manifold/aquarium...>
I
will also be using two of the bottom pre-drilled holes in my "reef ready
180 AGA" (ironic ... reef ready, yet I am looking at drilling?!!)
<Yes. Necessary with this flow/profile>
as returns from my 75 gal
sump/refugium and the other two as drains into my sump/refugium
(refugium turnover will be 4-6x). The return form the
sump/refugium
will be generating another 1000-1200 gph for a total display circulation
3400-4200gph when calculated with manifold. I am trying to maximize
circulation in attempts to give appropriate care to SPS corals.
<You'll do fine>
Am I making my display into Swiss cheese or will it
remain structurally sound in the above scenario?
<? You'll do fine
methinks...>
Or would you it be more appropriate to replace an inlet
with an internal pump to maintain above values?
<I would skip on the
internal pump/s at this point... Look into the Tunze line later if you
see such a need>
I would like to avoid the later, but I do not know
if it is possible.
<Is>
Thank you and all the WWM crew again in
advance for all your patience in sharing your knowledge with all who
ask.
<Mmm, I would utilize a "throttling mechanism" on the discharge
side of your ext. pump for the closed-loop here... ideally an
electronic-electrical one to save energy... that will allow you to
adjust flow/pressure... Take care to situate your through-puts/drains
sufficiently below water surface level to avoid cavitation, allow for
screening, directing (perhaps thread by slip street els...). Bob Fenner>
Return Manifold, Pumps...General System Plumbing - 03/11/2006
I
was reading up on this method to get better flow but just had a few
specific questions.
<As vague as possible, please.>
I have an 80
gallon reef tank and I hate the powerheads. I have a return from my fuge
that is probably pushing 250-300 gph. I want to build a closed loop
system to eliminate the phs.
<Do you want a true "closed loop", or
simply a return loop?>
My tank is not drilled but it has a piece of
glass at the top of the tank under the canopy that I can rest items on.
<Better things to "fix" this in place.>
My idea is to build a loop
system with 4- 6 outlets with a pump that is rated for around 1000 gph
but not have the pump submersed under the water. Is this possible and
what are the cons of this system.
<Quite possible. This is my
preferred method of returning water to the tank.>
Also what pumps
that are available would be the best choice for my idea.
<A shorter
list to say which aren't...>
Thanks for all of your help and your
knowledge is invaluable to us novice reefers.
Thanks
Dustin
<It's a lot to read I know, but I would go through our FAQ's until it
hurts. A lot of different angles to take into account, but once you
understand what not to do, the what to do makes perfect sense. Have you
read the Calfo article re this? Grabs some toothpicks, prop open those
lids, and let the coffee flow. - Josh> Re: Return Manifold,
Pumps...General System Plumbing - 03/14/2006
Thanks, I bought
some pvc and started trying to negotiate all of the turns and filter and
overflow and I think that it will end up being a pain rather than
beneficial.
<Hmm...Shouldn't be that bad.>
I think I am just
going to buy some new powerheads that actually get the job done.
<If
you hated them before, this probably won't change. But...>
Thanks
again.
<Sure Dustin. - Josh>
Overflow Questions
6/1/06
Hello Bob and the WWMC,
<James with you today.>
I
hope all is well and Hawaii was fascinating (jealous).
<Talking for
Bob, Hawaii is always fascinating, something different on every dive,
correct, Bob?> <<Mmm, yes, but back in sunny southern Cal. now>>
I am
starting to plumb my 50 gallon sump and refugium to my 150 gallon all
glass tank and looking for some expert advice.
I will make this
quick because I know you are all very busy.
Is it possible to
connect three separate hang on overflows (1) 900 gph and (2) 1400
gph to one central 3" drain pipe with vent?
<Yes, a three inch
drain will handle this, but why on earth do you need that much flow for
a 150 gallon tank? Problem is, if the pump is not sized close to the
gpm of the overflows, you will always have problems with air in the "U"
tubes. So, at least a 3200 gpm
pump would be needed...That's going
to be an awful lot of water moving in your tank unless you are trying to
establish a tsunami biotope. Ten to fifteen times the tank volume is
sufficient. You would be well over 20 times. Tell the fish to hang on
for dear life.>
The over flows planned positions are... a 1400
gph at each end of the tank with the 900 gph in the center.
Thank
you again for your time,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Mark
Re: Overflow Questions 6/1/06
Hello Crew and James,
<Hello Mark>
Thanks for the quick response. <You're welcome.>
Hopefully these answers to your questions help clear up what I am trying
to achieve.
The return pump will be a Mag Drive 36 external , with a
1" schedule 80 pipe (true 1" I.D.) return to a manifold system.
The
manifold will have 8 outlets, if my calculations are correct I have 14
feet of head loss, total loss of 4.86 psi. Taking this into account,
this leaves 852 gph of return divided by the 8 outlets, which
equals 106 gph at each nozzle.
If you think it is necessary, I can
branch off the return line and with another gate valve control the flow
back into the refugium or skimmer chamber. Sump flow is as follows,
skimmer, 3 baffles, refugium, 3 baffles, return.
<A bit more
clearer, Mark. Think you should be fine here. Do employ a gate valve
at the pump to allow you to throttle down if necessary. A return line
back to the pump shouldn't be necessary. If you want to double check
your calculations, here is a link for you. http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php
James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks Again for your time.
<You're welcome>
Mark
Re: sponge filter in QT tank (saltwater)... and manifold
pb 5/27/06
Great, thanks for the reply! Sounds like I
should cut back on total amount I'm feeding or if I go with a Copper
band B/F, I should look at trading him back in or leaving him in the 125
gal reef (if I get lucky and he doesn't eat too much of my corals).
I have another question if I may, I put in a closed loop system in my
125 gal. (hooked up to a MAG12) I plumbed a manifold around the top of
the tank with 8 outlets for lots of options on water flow direction.
Would I be better off blocking off half of them so I get stronger water
flow thus more turbulent action in the tank VS gentle flow out of all 8
outlets?
Thanks again, Mike
<Mmm, I'd get some slip plugs
(insert, sans solvent) and push these in and see... may take pliers to
extract... Bob Fenner>
Refugium plumbing question
4/18/06
Hi Crew-
<Ed>
I'm a bit confused about the best
way to plumb a refugium, sump and closed circuit return loop.
<Lots
posted re on WWM... and lots to consider... many "variations" on
themes...>
I'm planning on setting up a 90 G Oceanic Systems "Tech
Series" Tank with two return overflows and two Megaflow accessory
kits. The system will be designed to ultimately house SPS, LPS, Clams,
Mandarin dragonets and Wrasses.
<Not altogether compatible as
you're likely aware>
To ensure that all are well fed I would like to
run a RDP vegetable refugium with Chaetomorpha macroalgae and a 4" DSB
so that I can grow pods.
Reef Invertebrates, Calfo/Fenner has an
illustration for a Downstream Refugium on Page 53. If I understand
correctly the refugium should have a water flow of 5 to 10 times tank
turnover. This would be significantly lower than the 14 time turnover
I had planned for the Calfo designed Closed Loop illustrated on the
WetWeb site.
How can I marry these two seemingly contrary
requirements?
<Two separate pumps, sets of plumbing... Bob Fenner>
Many thanks,
Ed Re: Refugium, closed manifold recirc. plumbing
question, reef stkg. - 04/19/06
Dear Bob:
<Ed>
Thanks for your personal reply. Perhaps I should have been
more specific in my selection of livestock. It was my understanding
that SPS, Clams and a
limited number of well chosen LPS corals
could be housed together and that Mandarin dragonets and
Rainbow/Flasher/Fairy wrasses were compatible. Am I wrong?
<Mmm,
somewhat right and wrong... there are always induced problems with the
mix of any/all Cnidarian species. Some much more grievous than others,
and steps that can/have to be taken to alleviate these iatrogenic
difficulties. Many LPS (an entirely arbitrary designation btw for many
purposes), will consume dragonets... some can/will sting tridacnids...>
I've been reading everything I could on WetWeb and other sources
on fuges but can't seem to find a scheme for plumbing these two
separately.
<Mmm, take them "one at a time"... entirely separate
pumps, plumbing for each... You don't want to tie them together>
I don't expect you to do my work for me but if you are aware of a
schematic for such a system I would appreciate being directed to it.
Complex plumbing issues are beyond my present level of expertise.
As always I greatly appreciate your work.
Best regards,
Ed
<Please peruse here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
Take your time, record
good notes... read the files as they appear of interest, from the top,
front to the bottom, right... down and across... The indices have been
arranged by me in this order with purpose. Bob Fenner>
Re: New 90 Gallon Setup... closed loop issues 6/13/06
Hello Bob,
<Scott>
Thanks for your reply.
<Welcome>
Based on the expert advice I have been getting (including yours), I
decided to increase the size of my new system to 135 gallon. This will
afford enough space for external pumps, and hopefully provide more
options for (healthy and happy) fish stocking.
<Great>
Also, I believe this size should provide adequate space for my
Centropyge aurantius (currently in quarantine and eating habits
continuing to improve). Would you concur or should I consider finding
another home for this beauty?
<In the wild this is
one of the Centropyge species with a large "territory"... like many
cichlids, it can be crowded a bit...>
In discussing the new tank
configuration with a LFS, they suggested an enhancement which I would be
very appreciative to hear your thoughts about (I did not find it
addressed in the Circulation FAQ's in WWM and apologize if it has been
addressed before). Anyway, here goes - The current setup would use 2
overflows to feed an Ecosystem 3612 (roughly 1200 GPH per the
manufacturer) and back to the display. The balance circulation (say
another 1200 gph) would be provided by powerheads. My LFS representative
suggests doing away with the powerheads and plumbing a separate loop
taking water from the back of the tank (about half way up the tank)
behind the overflow boxes (the boxes would be equipped with Durso
standpipes so that a water column would remain in them). The lines would
be joined together to feed a parallel external pump and back to the
display via 2-3 additional bulkheads located at the lower portion of the
tank.
<Sounds like a plan>
I like the idea because it
eliminates the "issues" with powerheads such as heat generation, exposed
intakes, etc., but am wondering if we are drilling too many holes in the
back of the tank. Would you have any thoughts to share on this?
<More holes can lead to more potential problems... if it were
me/mine, I would not cut these through-puts quite so low... "just in
case"... But near/closer toward the upper surface... not too close
though, to prevent loss of water during change-outs>
Thanks again
for your help on this project.
Scott
<Glad
to share. Bob Fenner>
Closed-Loop Plumbed
Through Overflow? - 07/13/06
Friends at WWM,
<<Greetings
Scott>>
What kind of problems would you foresee running a
closed-loop and a sump out of the same overflow box?
<<Hmm...would
appreciate a bit more information to wholly understand what you are
attempting. You'll need to plumb each to its own
throughput/drain...you'll need to ensure the box can handle the volume
of water/won't starve the pumps...and then there's the noise such
flow/volume brings...>>
Thanks,
Scott
<<Regards, EricR>>
<RMF would NOT do this.> Plumbing for a refugium
& return manifold in 58 gal reef - 09/14/06
Brent
here. Hope all the crew is doing well! Basic background. 58 gal
36lx18,5wx21"h Tank. Intended use: Nice family project for my son,
daughter and me. My wife just shakes her head at our willingness to
research, learn and spend bucket loads of money. I'd like to point out
that my 8 year old daughter is probably more enthused than me, and
spends a lot of time searching the net for reef fish, inverts, and ideas
to help the project out.
<Well worth the investment all the way
around>
She has even created her own little reef book complete
with the fish, inverts and corals that she would like, noting common
name, species, a little bit about the species, care, feeding etc along
with a photo. Beats shopping or playing with boys as she says!
<Oh
yes!>
Anyway I digress. Back to the issue at hand. Reef display
with some LPS and some soft corals, mating pair of Ocellaris Perculas,
Lawnmower Blenny, Royal Gramma, Six Line Wrasse, and a Flameback Angle
added last, approximately 1 year after setup. T5 - 6x39 watt hood. I
have a couple of general questions for completing the plumbing on my 58
gallon, sump and possible closed loop manifold. Just working to fine
tune the details and wanted to get your input. 58 has the corner
MegaFlow overflow built in. Wondering which manifold kit is better the
Durso or the MegaFlow kit?
<Mmm, the former IMO/E>
Megaflow
kit has the return pipe and end fitting for the in-let and appears to be
more complete with the perforated critter block for the inlet.
<Can
get, thread in such a screen yourself...>
I have a CPR Large HOT
refugium with maxi-jet 1200 that will incorporate MM with Chaeto and the
CPR CF light unit. Lighting cycle in the CPR refugium to be on
24/7. Although I'm not married to this photo cycle.
<I would go
with an overlapping RDP myself... Chaetomorpha should not be illuminated
continuously>
I believe the CF is 19 watt? I'm planning a
30lx14wx16 high sump/refugium with 4" DSB, sugar fine aragonite, a
small amount of live rock to seed and Chaetomorpha algae with CF
lighting 20 watt +/-. Lighting to cycle in the sump/refugium off cycle
from the display. I believe the actual refugium gallonage will be around
10 gallons, not including the 4" sand bed. I also have a CPR BakPak
skimmer unit which I intend to have running full time. I am planning to
use a mag-drive pump, external, to handle the return which will simply
be plumbed back up to the MegaFlow inlet pipe nozzle. Just not sure if
I should use the mag-drive 5 or 7 here?
<Mmm... if it were me/mine,
the 5>
I am also thinking of incorporating a mag 5 or 7 drive,
internal, and creating either a manifold return closed loop with squid
on 2 outlets or trying to incorporate Anthony's water return manifold
http://wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm?
<A good plan. The seven
here>
Your thoughts and insight is well appreciated. And thank
you all for such a great site and willingness to help!
<An
enlivening pleasure to share. Bob Fenner> Re: Plumbing for a
refugium & return manifold in 58 gal reef. Not quite ready 9/15/06
Bob and crew, thanks for the quick reply! In re-thinking just
slightly. I am contemplating using Durso overflows for both the 1" and
1/2" down to a sump set up to handle both overflow in 1" in the main
sump and 1/2" to the refugium part with both overflowing baffles into a
center return area (not using the 1/2" for the return) .
<Let's take
each of these items one at a time... I strongly encourage you to do a
bit more delving... You (assuredly) do NOT want this small diameter
overflow lines... too little volume, intermittent siphoning effects...
and gurgling noise the likes of which even the Jolly Green Giant and a
massive bottle of Listerine can produce!!! Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dursopipefaqs.htm
and the linked
files above...>
I can then place a pump external if I box into the
return area to allow the pump to be exterior or place pump inside
(although heat trans may be an issue)?
<May be...
depends largely on the make, model... and size/volume-flow of pump
used...>
In incorporating both the 1" and 1/2" for overflows I can
return back with a mag-drive 9.5 or 12?
<Not necessary... this pump
can/will "out pump" more than these lines can/could deliver... My
friend... please... read...>
and was thinking of utilizing the SQWD
for alternating return current with 2 ever-tank-directable nozzles about
1" below the water surface. Does this seem best to incorporate the
overflow using the 2 drains and return over the top or separate as I
noted in my design before.
<Mmm, no... better to use one line of
good/decent diameter and all-plastic valves to regulate flow...
overflows w/o will prove to be frustrating...>
Although the
combined, rearranged sump will allow the extra flow, this will provide
for a considerably smaller refugium. Your thoughts?
<You need... to
read. Bob Fenner> Sump/Manifold Plumbing - 09/13/06
Hi
again folks.
<<Howdy Jim!>>
I am smack in the middle of setting
up my new 150XH reef (I know, it's a tall tank, but there were reasons),
with a 40G Breeder sump/refugium.
<<Cool!>>
This was a very
hurried job after my 72G bowfront sprung a major leak,
<<Yikes! Been there myself mate>>
but now that the fish and corals
are all (relatively) happily settled in their new home (instead of
Rubbermaid tubs in the middle of the living room floor), I am
considering how to redo the current temporary plumbing into something
more permanent and helpful.
<<Okay>>
The tank is a
predrilled/overflow tank from Perfecto, with one corner overflow (I had
anticipated two) which has a drain and a return fit with 1.25" bulkhead
fittings.
<<Mmm...better than the usual 1" I suppose>>
My
original plan was to run the 1.25" drain through a bushing, down to 1",
and directly into the input of my Poseidon2 Vortex Venturi skimmer
sitting in the first 9" compartment of the sump, probably without even
using a pump--just let gravity drive the skimmer. Assuming I manage to
achieve the right flow rate, which, based on the pump that came with the
skimmer, should be 700-800 GPH, does this make sense, or is it a crazy
idea?
<<You will never achieve 700-800 gph with a 1" (bushed)
gravity drain my friend...expect something closer to 400 gph. But from
what I can tell from a quick scan of the NET, this skimmer is not a
"recirculating" and thus won't work by simply feeding water to the
skimmer body. This skimmer needs to pull water from the sump through
the venturi pump to operate properly>>
I was hoping this would
assure 100% skimming of the incoming water, but I can just run the drain
into the compartment and use the Via Aqua pump that came with the
skimmer to drive it, if that makes more sense.
<<This is what you
will have to do>>
Then through triple baffles/bubble trap (the idea
for movable compression baffles was a huge help) into a 20"x18"x12"
lighted refugium compartment with live rock, DSB, and macro-algae, then
into a 7" return compartment with a MAG-12 return pump and a float valve
for automatic make-up water.
<<Sound fine>>
I was then planning
to run the output of the MAG-12 into a SCWD (by way of a union and a
ball valve), and run one side of the SCWD into the pre-drilled return,
adding an over-the-wall 3/4" adjustable return at the other end of the
tank to achieve some random/surge circulation.
<<I would use BOTH
throughputs to feed the sump...one "may not" handle the flow from the
MAG-12...at least not quietly>>
I was then also planning to add a
couple small powerhead driven circulation devices in the back, using a
design I found on Reef Central that uses PVC to keep the powerhead up
out of the tank and in the canopy where it doesn't add heat and can be
maintained (strainer and PVC up to the powerhead, then PVC back down to
the location where circulation is desired).
<Hmm...have not seen
this...>>
Now that I've done some reading about plumbing on the
site, I am questioning the entire plan.
<<...?>>
First, I am
wondering if this would be enough circulation. I figure the MAG-12
should be pushing about 900 GPH at 6' head.
<<Will be quite less
after the SCWD...but still possibly more than the single return will
handle efficiently/quietly>>
Adding a couple 200 GPH auxiliary
circulation devices would bring my total to 1300, or 6-7 turnovers per
hour. Given what I have read, that doesn't sound like a lot.
<<Maybe go with some 400 vs. 200 gph powerheads>>
Of course, I know
it's important to consider what I am keeping, which is all LPS, mostly
Euphylliids, Caulastrea, and various brains and Fungiids, none of which
particularly like very strong current, correct?
<<Not really...they
will appreciate some good flow...but not being directly blasted. It
will likely take some finesse on your part>>
Furthermore, it sounds
like the SCWD would seriously reduce the flow rate of my return, and I
don't think I want that.
<<Indeed...maybe as much as 20%>>
But
the present, single laminar return is definitely not working. I was
considering running my return into a manifold, but it sounds like the
return wouldn't begin to have enough flow to drive a decent manifold, so
I would need to install a second, closed loop system.
<<Agreed>>
I don't have any intention of taking the tank down to drill additional
holes, so would it be possible to run a closed loop manifold without
drilling?
<<I wouldn't>>
An internally positioned pump?
<<Love those Tunze Stream pumps>>
I can't imagine an overflow would
work to drive a manifold!
<<Not recommended>>
How can I achieve
decent, non-laminar flow with the present tank system? Any advice will
be appreciated!
<<Why not use a "smaller" return pump (returned over
the top) and use one throughput for the sump drain, and the other
throughput to feed a closed-loop?>>
Jim Jensen
<<Regards,
EricR>> Flow Rates/Tank Turnover/Plumbing Confusion - 08/10/06
Hi,
<<Howdy>>
I used to have a 72Gallon Bow front tank set up
but had to take it down. Now that I am setting it back up after a couple
of years I had some questions on turnover rate and setup.
<<OK>>
I did read "Water Flow, how much is enough?" by Anthony Calfo and found
it really useful. Since my tank is empty I have the option now to drill
holes, plumb the way I want and get a quieter pump. I had a GEN-X 40
that will be my backup but it was too loud. I was shooting between
10-20X turnover.
<<A lot of water to process through your sump...can
be done, but usually requires some effort to get things flowing
well/quieted down>>
But while searching various web sites and
talking to people I was advised that I only need 3-5 times turnover
through the sump and I should just add a closed-loop to make up the
rest.
<<This would be my recommendation as well. This flow rate
through your sump will be MUCH easier to manage>>
Some say over
skimming or reduce bubbles or noise etc.
<<...?>>
Some said it
is not required in the sump or fuge. Is this correct?
<<Is what
“correct”? I'm not sure what you are asking here, but if you mean 20x
tank turnover through the sump then no, this is not "required">>
It's been a couple of years so I want to make sure things have not
changed.
<<Mmm, the hobby is changing/progressing all the time...but
fluid dynamics won't have changed>>
Also I was going to put on a
Sea-Swirl for more water movement. I was not sure if one in the middle
of the tank or two on each end would be better.
<<Will depend in
part on how big (flow rate) a Sea-Swirl you opt for, but generally
speaking, one at each end of the tank would be best for good
coverage/flow throughout the tank>>
But they seem to only be on the
surface so my thought was one in the middle and have a Tunze Turbelle
Stream Pump lower in the tank (ever use these? Are they good?).
<<This configuration too could work...and yes, I am familiar/use Stream
pumps in my 375g reef tank...an excellent product in my opinion>>
Based on that I can then drill the back for my overflow in the corner or
middle. I have a lot of options and need some help thinking this
through.
<<Glad to proffer my opinions>>
a) One or two
sea-swirls?
<<Two>>
b) Placement of overflow?
<<Center...with a minimum 1.5" drain and 1" return>>
c)
Sea-Swirl(s), closed-loop, or from sump return?
<<For a high flow
rate/water movement...the Sea-Swirls (or Tunzes) or closed-loop>>
d)
Where to put the Tunze (opposite of overflow if in corner? or opposite
of return from sump if not sea-swirl)?
<<Either option is fine>>
e) Where to put the return from sump if not sea-swirl? Corner, middle,
opposite side of overflow?
<<Wherever it is needed to
provide/augment flow based on your other configurations>>
f) Does
the closed-loop get water from the overflow? Or do I drill back as
source?
<<The closed-loop pump will need its own "source">>
Or
add PVC with holes hanging in the tank. (hope that makes sense)
<<For the closed-loop intake? Mmm, best to drill a bulkhead>>
g)
Pump Velocity T4 at 1275GPH - but with 4ft head and 3 - 7 90's depending
on how many returns I have. This is not a pressure-rated pump but
according to the flow rates I would get between 1080 - 900gph depending
on the how many 90's I have. Is this enough?
<<For which
application?...it is more than you need for the sump return...likely not
enough for a closed-loop>>
Do I need more and should I have this
split to two returns?
Thanks,
Jason
<<There’s much to
consider my friend, please have a read through our plumbing FAQs, here's
a good place to start (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plumbingmarart.htm)
and be sure to follow/read among the links in blue. Regards, EricR>>
Manifold Plumbing 8/8/06
I have a 215G reef ready
aquarium that I'm just starting to setup for a FOWLR and perhaps some
hardy soft corals such as mushrooms. I didn't get the
aquarium
drilled for a closed loop due to the aquariums location, it is sitting
on a stand that was custom made to fit in with a wet bar, without easy
access to the rear of the tank should a bulkhead or plumbing fixture
ever failed. I was planning to just use powerheads, hidden as much as
possible behind rock work, to make up the additional flow that is
needed. I now have an idea to make a manifold at the aquarium top, such
as that in the article by Anthony Calfo, and using an internal
submersible pump instead of an external pump. I'm figuring that I can
hide one larger pump behind the rock work in a corner of the aquarium
that will not be easily viewed. I can make a stand to keep it off the
bottom, and build a cage for it out of black egg crate and gutter guard
to help keep invertebrates safe. Using black pvc piping, I can return
the water along the edge of the overflow making it less visible. This
way I will not have multiple powerheads to hide, and I will only have
one pump in the aquarium on which to perform periodic maintenance and
upkeep. The aquarium is situated in a basement that averages between
66-68 degrees, even during the summer, so I don't think heat buildup in
the tank should be an issue, in fact, I can probably use the additional
heat. I can also run the same pump as I will use to return water from
the sump. This way I can purchase a third pump as a backup for either
of the other two in case one fails. I have been running searches on the
Internet, and your site, trying to find an example of someone using a
similar setup, but I have not had any luck. Can you please let me know
if this sounds like a plausible idea? Thank you very much for your
input and suggestions.
<Sounds like it would work out OK. You may
consider installing a SCWD Water Director (Wavemaker) on each of your
returns. Less work with a nice wave making effect. See here. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?CatalogCustomerNum=&catalognum=&pCatId=10668&prodId=20229&catId=1137745&siteid=6
James (Salty Dog)>
Kevin Aquafuge pro and closed loop
circulation 3/2/04
Adam, No doubt about it I'm going closed loop
for circulation. The biggest concern I have right now is drilling the
back of a brand new tank for the intake to the pump. You know the
feeling you get when something is brand new and you think you'd like to
tinker w/ it but you need a push in the right direction? What I'm
looking for here is a vote of confidence.
<This is definitely a scary
thing! If you do decide to drill, I would seek the advice of the tank
builder and/or someone local who has experience. Aside from the risk of
damaging the tank during the operation, you must be conscious of not
weakening the structure of the tank and risking future failure.>
My
plan is to place a bulkhead w/ strainer about 8-10" from the bottom on
the back panel for intake.
<The lower you place the hole, the more
water you can potentially lose if it ever leaks. Consider placing the
hole higher and using plumbing to get your intake where you want it. It
can be hidden in aquascaping. Do also consider simply plumbing the
intake plumbing up and over the lip of the tank and into position (no
drilling required).
Now, reading about all the pumps out there and
their different intake sizes leads me to another question: what size
opening should I drill for 1400 gph flow? I have eliminated 3/4" so far,
also eliminated the SCWD in the line because of it's 3/4" input/outputs
(just murdered my flow rate). What I will end up w/ is a 1" manifold 4-5
outputs. Should I select pump first and then match input size? Marine
tanks are not new to me, every aspect of plumbing is.
<1" bulkheads
should be adequate for 1400gph, and will match most pumps in this flow
range. Purchase and measure your bulkheads to determine the required
hole size. There is often some size difference between brands. Even if
the pump has 3/4" outlet (Little Giant may), I would use all 1" plumbing
for max flow.>
Thanks, Sam <Best Regards. Adam>
-
Plumbing a Closed Loop -
Hi - My question (today) is about
plumbing a closed loop system. I looked through the FAQ, but didn't
really find anything to address this question.
I have a 180 gal
acrylic tank that is 60" long, 30" side and 24" tall. It has two
overflow chambers on each end, 8" square each. There is a "coast to
coast" overflow 4" square across the whole back of the tank that flows
into the overflow chambers.
I drilled holes for bulkheads for a 1"
Durso standpipe for outflow to the sump in each of the overflow chambers
and a 3/4" return that is piped through the overflow chamber and into
the tank itself. Although I drilled each overflow for a return, I'm
finding that one 3/4" return from my Iwaki 40RLT pump is sufficient. The
second overflow is turned off at the ball valve. I had wanted to use an
1 1/4" outflow, but found that I could not get elbow of the standpipe
into the chamber. The 1" seem to work fine, so that's not an issue.
Now for the question - I have a Dolphin 3600 AmpMaster pump and a
Haywood Electrical Ball Valve to create a closed loop system that will
change flow as the ball valve swivels from right to left sides. <Hmm...
just a word of caution here. Do observe carefully your pump's
interaction with the ball-valve - my feeling is that the switching
between the two outlets will cause back pressure on the pump.> Both the
pump and the ball valve have 1 1/2" input and returns. I have room in
the overflow chambers for one more 1" bulkhead that I can to tie
together and with a 1 1/2" tee underneath the tank. But I'm concerned
that I'll be pulling too much water through the overflow chambers and
unless I get the standpipes exactly the same height, I'll "starve"
either the closed loop system or water flowing into the sump. <Possibly
- if you haven't already, I'd go through a wet-run/leak test - just fill
the tank with fresh water to make sure all works according to plan.>
The other method is to pull the input for the closed loop from just
below the 4" square coast to coast. <Perhaps a better idea, although
plumbing failure will cause a good deal of water to drain out - how
about a bulkhead in the coast-to-coast?>
The return from the Dolphin
will go to 10 - 1/2" Loc Lines. I'm also not sure whether it's better
to drill two 1 1/2" bulkheads in the back of the tank for the returns
and have 1 1/2" to 1/2" tees inside the tank or to have the 1 1/2" to
1/2" tees outside the tank and drill for 10 1/2" bulkheads in the back
of the tank (I'd also do this as close to the coast to coast as possible
- just in case one leaks I want to try to minimize water loss). <More
holes will weaken the tank - I'd go with as few holes as possible.> By
having the 10 holes in the back of the tank, I'm taking up less tank
real estate by not having a lot of visible plumbing along the back of
the tank. I'm not too concerned about drilling ten holes - I've gotten
fairly good at drilling acrylic :-).
Thanks in advance for the
answer.
Steve
<Cheers, J -- > Plumbing Manifold 8/12/04
Hi Crew,
<howdy>
My name is Keith. I have a couple of questions
concerning Anthony's plumbing manifold. A little history first. My
system will be a 125g main tank, 15g sump and 30g refugium. The tank is
up and running (sort of). I got into a salt tank with too little
knowledge and have had some problems. Copper in my water and poor water
flow were the two main problems. I <the latter is a very (!) common
mistake. The minimum should be 10-20 X turnover per hour. You will
likely need 2000-300GPH turnover here>
I have corrected the copper
issue. I have to take my tank down, get rid of the substrate and (at one
time)
live rock. Currently the only overflow is a HOB with one 1" U
tube. (LFS said was plenty - yea right) I have found some one local to
drill my tank for me.
<excellent! A drilled overflow is the
best/safest>
Now for the questions.
1) Do you recommend drilling
the bottom of the tank or the back for overflows?.
<always the
back... I still cannot fathom why some folks recommend drilling the
bottom. It is harder to plumb around, requires an awkward/large
standpipe or overflow tower... and is simply an unnecessary risk. The
high vertical (back usually) walls are best, safest and most discreet>
2) Will two 1.5" overflows be large enough?.
<not sure... is this
the bulkhead size or the drilled hole size? If the former, that would
mean your drilled hole is around 2.5". Moreover... simply determine how
much flow you want (2000-3000PGH) and compare against the bulkhead mfg.s
specs (like at Rainbow Lifeguard plastic website). This is the only way
to safely rate it>
3) This is the main question(s) - if I use
Anthony's design for
a manifold does the return need to come from
the bottom or back of the tank?.
<the manifold is to be fed by the
sump return pump likely. Else an in tank pump>
Once I get the return
to the top of the tank, will the manifold be above the overflow box's or
do have to use elbows to go around both box's?.
<whatever is
practical... I cannot say as I do not know where the overflows are
placed. The manifold typically sits just at or slightly above the water
surface to be discreet>
The last and final question has to do with
balancing the flow from the nozzle's. I will be using a T4 Velocity pump
rated at 1250gph with 1" intake and output lines.
<this is very
little flow/pump for a manifold. Just imagine if you have six nozzles
fed by this pump working at head... that's less than 200GPH per nozzle
(weaker than the smaller powerheads). A dismal water flow. Beef this up,
mate>
I was planning on having ten nozzle's in the manifold, 4 in
front and back and 1 on each end.
<ten nozzles sounds excellent for
the tank to improve water flow and reduce detritus, etc>
Will I be
able to get enough flow through this manifold that the front nozzle's
have a good flow of water?.
<not enough>
Thank you for your time
and all the good information I have gotten from reading for hours on
your web site. Keith
<I wish you the very best of luck, my friend.
Anthony> - Plumbing a Return Manifold -
Hello and
thank you for all previous advice. I am in the process of creating a
return manifold like the one Mr. Calfo has posted. I am planning on
using a Blueline 200 with 1" inlet/outlet. I plan on using 8 T's in the
manifold and use adapters with swivel nozzles to finesse circulation.
Question 1: Since pump outlet is 1" should the whole manifold be
constructed with 1" pvc? <I'd plumb up to the tank in 1"... for the
manifold perimeter around the tank, I'd use 3/4".> Question 2: I would
rather support manifold above water line/above tank center brace and
extend T's and nozzles below water surface for aesthetic reasons. Any
issues with that? <Not that I can think of, provided you put a check
valve in the main return line, before the manifold.> Question 3: I
don't want to drill the tank but would rather plumb inlet from
display-over rim-down to pump. Problem? <A huge one... would create a
siphon.> If not, as I understand it, or maybe not, in case of power
failure, since this a closed loop (no sump) method there is no chance of
flooding, correct? <Didn't realize this was a closed loop, but still
must make an allowance for a leak in the plumbing/pump. Siphons are big
potential trouble.> Question 4: Scenario--> power fails resulting in
inlet plumbing over display rim drains back to display creating a air
gap but there is still water in vertical pipe above pump. Will this be
enough water to prime the pump when the power should happen to come on
again or will I burn up the pump trying possibly creating a fire and
burning the whole house down b/c I didn't want to drill the tank??? Duh
<Hmm... good question and something I would test once you have the whole
thing built. Do think that if you use the check valve inline on the
return, you should have enough water remaining in the plumbing to prime
the pump. Again, would test this to be sure.>
Thank you for guidance
and patience.
Avid reader
<Cheers, J -- >
Loop
Manifold questions 4/21/04
You really do burn the midnight oil!
<At times like now (post and pre-travel)... yes, very much so <G>>
Thanks for your dedication and suggestions! I have a couple of
follow-up's. This tank will start off as FOWLR, but since I'm
constructing it, I want to plan for eventually going reef with it. If I
dedicate a pump to the closed loop, then I wouldn't need to go with 3 2"
upper back wall bulkheads as these were intended to provide enough
drainage for high turnover through the sump to display. In other words,
would you simply put a pump behind the back wall display (below intended
water level) with one bulkhead for input and then connect to the
perimeter loop?
<Yes... this works best for most folks and is
exactly what I am doing for the next/latest personal display tank of my
own being set up>
If I only have one input to loop pump, fully
submerged bulkhead, what would be the impact on noise level, or
would
you recommend the loop suction side of bulkhead not be fully
submerged for maximum silence?
<Hmm... I'm really not sure what you
are asking, mate? If the pump draw is flooded (below the water line and
gravity overflowed)... then the noise of the closed loop with effluents
at or slightly under the water surface will be minimal - relatively
speaking>
Would you still recommend a sump?
<Yes... they are quite
convenient for so many reasons>
What sump to display turnover is
recommended?
<Slow is OK here to minimize salt creep, noise, etc:
5-10 X would be fine>
Any recommendations on a dedicated loop pump
(which in this scenario would have close to 0 head)?
<Iwaki (Japanese
made) is still my first choice... then Sequence pumps are my second
choice presently. kindly, Anthony> Closed Loop Manifold...
Good morning!
My husband and I are preparing to set up this closed
loop manifold (maybe just one pipe in back across the whole back) in our
90 gallon acrylic. We checked with LFS man who had the tank made for us.
He said that all drilled holes and bulkheads can handle the new GPH; we
just have to change what he called the spur fitting. We are considering
either the Pondmaster¹s Mag Drive 18 or 24. With one, considering the
overhead, it will actually be about 1200 GPH and the other, 1800 GPH.
So 10 x's or 20 x's the turnover... hmmmm..? Questions are:
1.
Anthony states in his article that 6 tees for return water is max for
100 gallon tank. Could I have more?
<Yes... of course, any given flow
rate, pressure will be diminished per outlet in terms of outflow with
increasing number>
2. My husband talked about using a smaller PVC
pipe to "pinch" the water to increase flow. Much like a plumbed house.
Main line coming in is bigger and then goes to smaller to increase the
pressure. Is this o.k.?
<Yes... a good idea>
3. And basically, how
do you make sure you are utilizing the max GPH and not causing back
pressure because you used too few holes? How do you make sure you don¹t
have too many holes thereby making the pressure too gentle coming out
and thereby losing effectiveness of the reason for manifold?
<Mmm,
can be done mathematically or by assay (actual practice)... my advice is
to go the latter route... Not gluing/solventing pipe, fittings on the
inside of the tank... looking at the resultant flow with the pump on,
tank filled about all the way... experimenting with changing out
diameter, number of fittings... until you have about what you want, what
you're going to get... taking all back out, apart, drying, gluing
together...>
The rest of the information provided seems easy enough.
These are my only questions....except, as you answer them I'll probably
find more! Ha.
Thanks.
From MI
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Closed Loop Manifold 4/14/05
Anthony, I'm planning to build an
aquarium out of glass 72"L x 30"Wx 24"H 1/2" glass. I have planned to
use 3 2" bulkheads (top back wall of tank) draining to a sump. I plan to
use a Sequence Hammerhead for the return pump (approx head 18ft).
Sequence suggested 2" piping off the return (in order to maximize flow
vs. pressure)...
<Yes... understood>
...which means I would have
to go from 1.5" (discharge) to 2" up to the tank at which point I wanted
to do a closed loop around perimeter of tank.
<Good>
I have been
told that the water level should not be over the 2" bulkheads. In other
words maybe half up the bulkhead to reduce noise.
<Quite correct!
For safe running/operation, do not overdrive the drains to the point
where their running level is half of their capacity or greater (too
noisy if nothing else)>
My problem and hence questions have to do
with how to configure the piping.
<The Closed loop pump in this case
should be on its own drilled loop, and not tied into the sump>
I have
to put bracing all the way around the interior top of tank, but also
take into account room to place the 2" pipe going around the perimeter
(which will reduce to 3/4" for outlets), and try to keep the bulkheads
slightly above the intended water level (otherwise the loop will run
into the bulkhead baskets or bracing or.....), and also consider how to
put a glass cover (lid/lids) over this whole set up. What suggestions,
concerns, changes, etc might you suggest to make this work?
<From
what little information is provided, I see no problems>
Also, any
suggestions on where to obtain black silicon for putting together an
aquarium?
<Google until you can't Google no more <G>. And the big
mail order companies perhaps like
MarineDepot.com,
CustomAquatic.com,
ThatFishPlace.com, etc.>
Many thanks, you guys are the best!
<Kindly, Anthony> Pump Sizing/Plumbing For A Teed Manifold -
05/21/05
Hello,
<Hello Frank>
I have a 135 gallon reef
tank, currently running a Gen-X 1190 GPH return, and I have two 1-inch
drains in the lower back of the system feeding into the sump.
<Couple thoughts/opinions here Frank. First - Be careful not to
overestimate what your drains can handle and plan accordingly. Many
claim 600 gph for a 1" drain, and under ideal circumstances it will
probably handle it (albeit noisily), but I've found that a "safe" flow
rate for this size drain is about half of what's usually
recommended. Be aware that flow will eventually start to restrict due
to growth of algae and cryptic organisms within the opening/drain
pipe. Second - You mention the drains are installed in the "lower"
back. Unless you have some type of riser pipe/overflow box installed,
your tank will drain to this point when the pump is off.>
My
question has multiple parts: 1) Is my Gen-X giving a sufficient rate of
turnover to my tank in general, and is it powerful enough to give decent
flow to a teed manifold with six or so outlets, enough that I can forget
about power heads?
<On its own, no, even before accounting for head
loss. Some suggest a minimum of 10x total tank volume for flow, I feel
more is better...20x plus. When figuring number/size of outlets for the
manifold figure 400+ gph for each 1/2" outlet and 800+ gph for each 3/4"
outlet on the manifold. Its my opinion your current pump would limit
you to two 1/2" outlets on the manifold. With a proper pump/manifold
design (much covered in the FAQs), yes, you will be able to forgo power
heads.>
2) If not, what should I upgrade to and will this require
additional holes cut in the tank for drainage?
<Assuming six 1/2"
outlets, you're looking at a pump in the 3000 gph range before head
loss. As for your drainage holes, I would plumb the two 1" drains
directly to the pump and create a "closed-loop with the manifold. You
really don't want to try to push this volume of water through your
sump. Add another 1" drain and plumb the MAG 5 for your sump return.>
3) I am running a 500 GPH Mag 5 (and plan to add a second Mag 5) inside
the tank at the moment. Between this and the return pump am I giving
respectable (I know it is not ideal) water turnover for the size of my
system?
<Could be made to work, though the manifold is a much better
idea. Be sure to adjust all flow output to interact in a random
turbulent fashion.>
Lastly, I know the answer to this could
potentially fit under multiple categories on your website, could you
please post it under Plumbing 18 FAQ so I can find it easily.
<I
don't make the actual postings on the site, but be aware you get a reply
returned directly back to you as well.>
Much Appreciated, Frank
Janes
<Regards, Eric Russell> Closed Loop
Hey
Crew!
<Ben>
I've Googled and surfed and can't seem to find a
simple definition for a "Closed Loop" circulation system and/or a
diagram of the principle. Please Help!
Thank You,
Benjamin
<Mmm, some pix here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm
and the linked files
above. This is a "closed" as in not open (to the air) recirculation
system for moving water around with a motive force (pump) located
outside an aquatic system. Bob Fenner> Re: Closed Loop Reply
to Bob
Bob:
<Ben>
Went to the link you suggested and all
I saw was a pic of a closed loop manifold.
<Please see the rest of
the response... the linked (Related FAQs) files above...>
I think my
question regards closed loop for recirculation of water in tank for flow
purposes. Pumped into tank and pumped out of tank
<Mmm, no. Not
pumped out... gravity, siphon fed>
on a separate pump ergo CLOSED
LOOP? If I am correct then how does one plumb for sump/refuge/protein
skimmer when utilizing a closed loop system for increased flow?
<Separately... not on or with a closed manifold>
Strange to tell but
I've been bopping along thinking closed loop =no fresh sea water coming
in from ocean hence water pumped into tank/overflow out of tank to
sump= closed system. But it seems I have misinformed myself and wanted
to assume nothing.
Thank You
Benjamin
<Sorry for the
confusion. Take a look at the Related FAQs files. Bob Fenner>
Re: Closed Loop continued
Bob:
<Ben again>
Ok, I think I
have a handle on what a closed loop system is now. One pump is dedicated
to taking water from the tank and returns it to the tank with no stops
(processes in-between). Purpose being internal tank FLOW (turbulence?).
Then another pump returns water to the tank from the sump, the tank
overflows into a return system and back to the sump it goes. Am I
correct?
<Yes>
If I am on the right track then I have some
concerns. I was taken by your idea of a weir (a glass plate in the back
of the tank fixed at a 45 degree angle to the back plate) mainly for its
ability to skim the surface efficiently and provide QUALITY protein rich
water for the skimmer.
My general plan is to feed the tank from the
sump with 4 2" pipes .(one of which would be reduced to 1" or 1.5" for
a return manifold and another 1" branch off of a different 2" for
refuge return) and overflow drained with 4 2" pipes. Powered by a Super
Amp Master 7500 or something close to its capacity of 6900 gph @
4' head with 2" inlet and outlet.
<This is a big pump...>
Tank
would be 180gal with a 100 gal sump and an independent 55 gal refuge
(all with 6"DSB) mounted to the side but above the main tank My
guesstimate is that total water displacement will be aprox.. 40%,
leaving aprox. 200 gal. of actual water capacity. Estimated turnover to
be somewhere in the 28 to 34 times per hour range.
With that
information as a background MY QUESTIONS ARE: 1) Since I've never seen a
configuration like this actually run what is your sense of the flow and
turbulence that will be produced in the tank. Will the critters and
rocks be flyin' around or just happy in the current?
<With "proper",
"adequate" dispersion the latter. Not much of this water is going
through the refugium I hope>
2) Will such turbulence defeat the
proclivity of protein and other waste products from residing at the top
of the water thus defeating the beautiful idea of quality water for the
skimmer?
<Not practically... such phobic molecules make their way
past, into fractionators in due time in any, all cases>
3) Would
such a turnover eliminate the need for a closed loop system?
<Likely
so... though I would rig a manifold for distribution of the return
water>
4) Would one 2" fixture (the pump) feeding 4 2" pipes greatly
reduce pressure? If so perhaps I should think of only 3 or 2?
<I
would use one... return pipe... two inch bushed down at the over or
through tank fitting to one inch tees... Do take a read through our
plumbing article, FAQs files before committing to a given plan here. Bob
Fenner>
Thank You Very Much,
Benjamin Sumpless Closed
Loop Manifold
Hi WWM Crew,
<Glenn>
I have a 75Gallon
tank that I had drilled when I converted to DSB/Live rock filtration. I
had only one drain installed and it cannot handle a more powerful pump
return than 375 Gallons. This drains to a 20Gallon sump/refugium. The
rest of the circulation is handled by 4 MaxiJet power heads suction
cupped to the wall (All these pumps combined add up to 1000GPH).
Unfortunately, the have been getting loose lately and creating snow
storm in my tank. I'm fed up and want to try a manifold. But I cannot
use the existing drain and I don't want to take the tank down to drill
another hole.
<Can, could go "over the top", edge of the
aquarium...>
The only option I can think of is an internal pump,
like a Mag 12 or 18. How do I place this pump in the tank and still
avoid my fish and sand getting sucked up.
<Careful screening>
Last year, I lost my Dragon Wrasse to an uncovered intake ,on a
powerhead. Very disturbing site to see you favorite fish half in and out
of a powerhead. (He was already sick though, I think that is why he was
sucked in.)
Thanks,
Glenn
<Do take a read through our site
re manifolds, plumbing... a few options for you here... using pump/s
outside the tank. Best. Bob Fenner> Re: Sumpless Closed Loop
Manifold, powerhead use 07/01/05
Bob,
<Yes>
Thanks for
the reply. I've decided to go with an internal powerhead. After reading
many FAQs and other forum threads, I've purchased a Tunze Stream. I went
with the 6060, which cannot use a controller, to vary output. I'm amazed
it can move more than 5 times the volume of water using less electricity
than the Maxi Jet 1200's.
<A very nice product>
I've directed
the pump to partially reflect off the front pane of my 75 aquarium. I'm
hoping this will spread the flow in multiple directions.
<Should>
Should I run this pump 24/7 or power it off at night and run just a few
maxi jets and the return pump at night?
Thanks,
Glenn
<I'd
leave all running continuously. Bob Fenner> Overflows vs.
Closed Loop 7/17/05
Good day,
<And you>
I really should
be charged for all the questions I have been asking lately. so please
feel free to let me know where I should deposit the money and how much
:-)
<We never turn down the cash!>
At the moment I wish I never
heard of "closed loops", because I am really battling with this. I'm
setting up a new 150 Gallon reef tank and have really struggled a lot to
sort out the water circulation. For my overflows I have 2 x 1.5inch
bulkhead drains (inside diameter). From the sump I have a pump that
sends about 1500gph into 2 x SCWD for the return. The overflows seem to
handle this quite easily, with no problems so far. The problem I have is
with the additional circulation. My original plan was to use an "over
the top" configuration for a closed loop, where I don't have to use
drilled holes. I'm finding the plumbing for the closed loop very
difficult to do, the tank braces and "lips" makes life a little
difficult with the "over the top" type setup, I'm finding it very hard
to find the proper parts, ball valves etc. and I also have some space
problems below my tank.. I'm very frustrated at the moment.
<Seems
so>
So now I'm thinking of drilling an additional 2 x 1.5" holes to
cater for the intake of the closed loop. At least this will eliminate
the need for "over the top intakes". The one thing I would really like
your opinion on is the following - The one place I do have a lot of
space in is the "return chamber" in my sump. The total sump size is
about 65 gallons, with the return chamber on its own taking up almost
half of that. So the one option I was considering is - instead of using
the 2 additional holes for a closed loop, rather add them to my current
overflows and add the second pump to my sump. This way I will have
3000gph going through my sump/overflows with 2 return pumps and no need
for the ball valves and other things I've been struggling with so much
on the closed loop. I can split the overflow lines so that only part of
the 3000gph goes through my refugium area and skimmer and the rest
straight into my pump return chamber, so I'm not much worried about
sending too much water through my refugium.
Do you think the option
of using more overflows with 2 strong return pumps instead of a closed
loop for 3000gph be a bad idea?
<Mmm, no>
Should I rather bite
the bullet and continue my struggles to get the closed loop going?
<Up to you of course>
Is 4 x 1.5" holes too much for a 150Gallon
tank ?
<Mmm, no>
Ps. I will connect the second pump to another 2
x SCWD, so the actual flow rate will be a bit less than 3000gph.
<Okay>
Any advice will really be appreciated.
<Perhaps a good
idea to "step away" from this project for a while...
Come on out to
HI next month and go diving with me... all will seem clearer with a bit
of a holiday away. Bob Fenner>
Many Thanks
Chris
Re:
Overflows vs. Closed Loop 7/17/05
Hi Bob,
<Chris>
Thanks
for the reply. Diving with you sounds like a great idea, but
unfortunately I'm thousands on miles away here in South Africa.
<Ahh, our mate who has lived with us a dozen years is on a walk-about
visiting in Swaziland... where he and his brother had a farm implement
biz... till it was "nationalized"...>
Have fun
Chris
<Mmm,
do keep the "break" in mind... and re travel... "you get on a plane, you
get off a plane"... Tis an exceedingly small planet my friend. Bob
Fenner> Will a closed loop for circulation really only work if
you have the 7/26/05
water coming to the pump from either a hole
in the back of the tank (below water line) or the bottom of the
tank? That is, am I wrong that a line that runs over the tank edge to
the pump would not work, or work well, since a loss of power would break
the siphon, for lack of a better word, to the intake of the pump. Am I
wrong here?
<Hi Jon, please see this link:
http://melevsreef.com/closedloop.html - Ali>
Closed Loop
W/Manifold Plumbing Design - 08/13/05
Hello crew,
<<Evening>>
I'm doing an open top 180G (6'x2'x2'). I want to do a
CL with a manifold under the DSB. I have the tank drilled for two 1.5"
bulkheads for this CL. As for pumps, I'm considering one of the Reeflo
models (Dart, Barracuda or Hammerhead). I know we can't get into exact
head loss calc.s etc. but hopefully you can help me based on your
experience. I want to be able to have SPS and any other high flow
critter I'm interested in.
<<okie dokie>>
While
considering my CL question below, keep in mind that I want to try to get
about 800-1000 gph from my sump return running through two Penductors
(which supposedly should equate to approx. 3000-4000 gph they say
although I'm a little skeptical of this number).
<<As am I. Have
seen these (on a 180), just not convinced the flow is increased by this
large a volume.>>
So starting with a 1.5" bulkhead into the tank I
could tee to a 1" loop or keep it 1.5". I think I have plenty of room
in the DSB to do a 1.5" manifold if it will be better.
<<Not much
(if any) advantage to keeping the 1 1/2" diameter here...would plumb 1"
just to save on PVC costs/ease of handling if nothing else.>>
My
main question though is how many nozzles (size and diameter) to run off
the loop. They will have some LocLine to allow direction
adjustment. Assuming approx. 4' head loss a Dart would do about 2900
gph for 160 watts, a Barracuda would do about 3900 gph at 315 watts, and
a Hammerhead would do about 5500 gph at about 370 watts.
I don't
want to have too few CL nozzles and have them act like jet streams, but
I don't want to have a forest of nozzles sticking out of my sand
either! I appreciate any advice you can give me...
<<Nozzle
size/quantity will depend on the pump you choose. You have some
figuring/deciding to do here mate. Decide how many nozzles you
want...figure 350 gph per 1/2" nozzle and 550 gph per 3/4"
nozzle...divide these figures in to the flow rates for the three
pumps...whichever figure comes closest to the number of nozzles you
want...wallah!
Thanks,
Randy
<<Regards, EricR>>
Get That Jet Stream - 08/13/05
Can you PLEASE correct my
spelling of "get stream" to "jet stream" in the last paragraph of my
previous email if you put it on your FAQ pages? LOL
If you can that
would be nice, if not, oh well, I'll just have to look like a
goofball...
-Thanks!
Randy
<<No worries my friend...took
care of it. Funny how the brain works/reads/disconnects sometimes,
eh? EricR>> Closed Loop W/Manifold Plumbing Design II - 08/14/05
Thanks for the advice to assume 350 gph per 1/2" nozzle and 550 gph per
3/4" nozzle for my CL manifold. Would you care to estimate a rough head
loss number for a system like this? Is 4ft reasonable or is there a
rough number per nozzle I can assume?
Thanks and have a great
evening,
Randy
<<Aside from the actual vertical run, I would add
a foot of head for each 90-degree elbow, a foot of head for every ten
feet of horizontal run, and for good measure throw in another foot of
head for the nozzles (combined)...yep, eats up flow rates in a
hurry. Do buy enough material to build a couple different
configurations if necessary and test these for desired performance
before making a permanent installation. EricR>> Manifold
Recirculation Loop Made of Funny Pipe? - 12/06/2005
Hello crew !
<Hi there Pedro!>
I have two questions: First one is fairly simple. I
would like to know if the Manifold Loop can be made out of Funny Pipe or
sprinkler plumbing.
<I'm not familiar with Funny Pipe, but if it's of
the same nature as sprinkler plumbing then I would be concerned about
possible algaecides.>
The second one more complicated: I have a Mag 7
as my return line pump for a 75 gallon reef tank ( not set up yet) and
about 4 ft of head and the return line is a 3/4". I will keep the
overflow the same 1". Do you think if I make the Manifold Loop to 1/2"
reducing the return line, will give me the necessary flow?
<No.
Making the loop 1/2" will restrict the amount that the pump can push
into the loop, thus restricting flow before it even hits the outlets.
Instead keep the 3/4", reduce the amount of outlets and use the outlets
themselves as the reducing point (lock-lines are great for this). That
said, the Mag 7 (@ 700 gph.) is on the short end of desired flow. To get
at least 200 gph. from your outlets, you could only have about 3.>
Or
do I need a bigger return pump.
<Would be better.>
I will keep the
overflow the same 1". IF you please can point me in the right direction
it would be very well appreciated.
<Since you're not set up yet, why
not add a second drain to help accommodate more flow? Remember to plan
for future intentions and not just the quickest way to get up and
running (hard to, I know). A larger pump will serve you better, but
don't over shoot your drain capacity.>
Thank You,
Pedro Velasquez
<Anytime. - Josh> Re: Closed Loop Manifold! - 12/13/2005
Thanks Josh, for the quick reply!
<No problem. My wife had some
things to look up, so I took the rest of the night off.>
I got the
CLM a bit more under control now thanks to you.
<Glad to help, but
I'll pass all credit to Mr. Calfo.>
I just don't have very clear
about the pumps having the MD 7 & MD 9 pumps running together.
<I
only said this because you said you wanted the filtration separate from
the CLM. In that case the MD7 gives you part of the flow, MD9 would make
up the rest.>
Wouldn't this be more complicated, and I guess they
have to be connected in parallel right?
<Much more complicated.
Remember, in my first response I said you would only need one pump. If
going with two, they would have to be separated entirely "a sump per
pump", not parallel.>
To make things easier and simple, I think I
will buy a bigger pump, like you said.
<Good choice;)>
But I
just found out that the MD pumps are not recommended for saltwater
external use, is this somewhat true?
<Not really. You just have to
look for this specific ability in the pump listed. Look at the Mag
Drives here
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?ref=3532&subref=AG&N=2004+113041
.>
Because I would like to go external to lessen the heat. How about
Sequence pumps? Gen-X, Iwaki, Blue line or any
other that's
reliable and cost saving on electricity.
<All would work as well. I
didn't mean to get on a Mag Drive kick, that's just what you already
had.>
I could then use the MD 7 for the skimmer. Is this a good
idea or is this pump to much for a skimmer?
<Again, depends on
skimmer specs. Would be a big one though.>
And to have this clear :
Is this pump or pumps that we are talking about just for the filtration
cycle or is this for the CLM? I want to have them separate with the CLM
on a timer or wave controller.
<I think you've missed one part. If
done properly, the CLM will create all the random, turbulent flow you
need. No need for the wave controller (saves money on electricity also).
If you're worried about feeding time, just adjust the output with the
ball valve. So, I mean one pump total. Return from sump is the CLM.>
The filtration cycle is the standard corner overflow of 75 g:
1" Overflow; 3/4" return but with an addition of a "T" 2 outputs
instead of just one.
The CLM is 3/4" all the way with 6
"Ts" and 1/2" outputs like you advised me to do with loc-line nozzles
and the input for the loop is 1"
<I thought you decided to leave
this at 3/4".>
I think I need to buy 2 pumps, one for the filtration
cycle and one for the CLM. Please tell me what you think. And thanks
again man..
<No sweat Pedro, the filtration question you have throws
me though. The sump is "powered" via gravity so I don't understand where
you feel the second pump is going to help. If I'm missing something in
your meaning just shoot me another message. Hope I've cleared up the
rest. - Josh> Re: Closed Loop Manifold - 12/12/2005
Already took care of the return pipe issue. I'm going to leave it 3/4"
and not mess with drilling. This is the main return from the sump to
the tank. I want to keep it separate from the Loop.
What pump would
you recommend!
<Did you not receive my e-mail last night? As stated,
I would go with the MD12 or MD18, add the extra outlets and limit output
to desired flow with a ball valve. If running the MD7 as well, just get
the MD9>
I had the Mag 7 for this return, but I think is too small.
<Correct, won't give adequate flow.>
About the CLM: I'm not sure
about the output size on the loop. The loop is 3/4" inside of the
tank. Should I have the "T's" with a reduction to 1/2" or should I
leave it 3/4"?
<Reduce to 1/2. Find a way to taper this down as well
(lock-lines or similar object).>
It's going to have 6 outputs.
4 now, 2 later.
<Why not six now?>
I have no way of knowing at
this moment how the flow is going to be, because I don't have the pump
yet. I would like advice on a pump for the CLM with 4 T's & 2 90 elbows
and 2 three ways on two corners for a 75 gallon tank. I would have about
2 1/2 feet of head.
<Try rereading Anthony's article on a closed
loop manifold. I feel that aside from its effectiveness, the beauty is
in the simplicity. - Josh> Closed Loop Manifold - 12/11/2005
Hello guys from WWM!
<Hi there Pedro! You've got Josh again.>
Do
you think it will make a lot of difference in flow if I make the return
line for a 75g which is 3/4" to 1" to the top or beginning of the loop,
then tee off for 3/4" pipe for the loop and outputs or just don't even
bother of drilling the hole bigger for a 1" bulkhead and just do the
3/4" pipe all around.
<I would just stick with the 3/4" all the way.
Going from 1" into the tank and then dropping to 3/4" isn't going to be
helpful.>
Does the CLM need to be separate from the filtration
cycle?
<Nope. Just make it the return from your sump.>
I don't
have anything setup yet, I'm in the planning mode. I don't have a pump
for this right now, but will like to have a descent flow.
<I thought
you had the Mag 7.>
Any recommendation will be appreciated. Need
advice ( size and Brand )on an external pump that can be use as a return
pump for main display and another for the Closed Loop Manifold.
<You're fine with the Mag Drives, and the good news is you only
need/want one pump to return water to the tank via your closed loop.
Running two will be a problem as no two pumps will ever match each other
precisely (you'd basically have to set up a sump per pump). Just size up
to perhaps the MD12 or MD18 and control the output with a ball valve and
more outlets.>
I have a Mag 7, which the LFS sold me, but now I
understand that's not enough.
<If you're not running it yet, why not
return it toward a bigger pump?>
What can I use that mag 7 for? Is
it too much to use on a skimmer?
<Depends on the skimmer really.
Find one that operates best with at least 700 gph and I don't see why
not. Personally, I always have some crazy scheme for spare pumps.
Cheapest route would be to try and take it back for a
credit.> Thank
you WWM.
Pedro Velasquez.
<Sure thing Padre...uh Pedro>
Manifold plumbing 10/7/03
Anthony: I just finished reading your
article on a manifold plumbing system. I think this is a great idea and
plan on using it for my new 135g I will soon be setting up. However I am
currently reworking my 55g and have some reservations. If I use a closed
loop manifold, the pump needed would have to be fairly substantial.
<hmmm... not really. Or at least, no more than the output of three
medium sized power heads to produce the same desired 10-20X tank
turnover (500-100 GPH). This is a small external water pump indeed>
The power consumption would be very high and the heat generated by a
large pump in a small in sump substantial.
<wow... you are way off
the mark here my friend. A single external water pump will definitely
run far cooler than the same muscle in submersible powerheads... and
their power consumption is easily similar or less than the cumulative
powerheads/Fluvals, etc. Look to Iwaki or Supreme for such reliable and
efficient water pumps. The latter being the more affordable>
I am not
sure if it would be worth it.
<its well worth it for all of the
reasons above plus safety and aesthetics>
I am wondering what you
think of a hybrid between this and a spray bar.
<spray bars are
antiquated and troublesome (tough to service and they diffuse the water
too much)>
3/4" plumbing coming off the internal overflow on the left
side and running across the back of the tank ending in the right corner.
Outlets with LocLine fixtures evenly spaced , 2 or 3( your input
required here), each preceded by a flow valve. Flow rate and direction
would be controllable at each outlet. The black PVC and sch.80 fixtures
I've located should be just about invisible. Do you foresee any
problems, or anything I have overlooked? Thanks as always, Ken
<no need to re-invent the wheel here my friend... do stick to the plan
;) Kind regards, Anthony> Manifold plumbing III 10/8/03
Thanks Anthony - I guess my question was not exactly clear. 55 gallon
display with standard cabinet and 25 gallon sump = no room for an
external pump.
<understood... hence the recommendation for a Supreme
(mag-drive) which is submersible>
Manifold and
plumbing = 9.5- 10'
head pressure. A Mag 12 uses 110watts. wouldn't this generate a lot of
heat for a tank this size?
<again... no more (much less actually)
than the 3-4 powerheads in the display that it would take to produce the
same flow>
I really wasn't going to use a spray bar per say but run
the plumbing just across the back with 2-3 outlets, thus cutting down on
the pump size. Your method or my mod.? Would a
Mag 9.5 be sufficient?
A little less wattage, a little less heat. Any other pumps you can
recommend.
<I honestly think you are overly concerned about the heat
issue, mate. And what little is imparted can be easily dissipated by a
cheap 9-watt muffin fan exhausting air from the surface of the aquarium
(evaporative cooling easily rips off 4 degrees F)>
Your friend in
reef and reading( get that next book out)
Ken
<Thanks kindly :)
Vol. 2 Reef Fishes is well underway... coming soon ;) Anthony>
Manifold plumbing IV 10/15/03
Understood. One last question and I
promise never to bother you again (at least about manifolds!).
<no
worries, mate>
The return from the sump is 3/4".Do you see any
problems if I reduce it to 1/2" where it returns at the top of the tank.
<not at all... there are advantages to both routes. You will get
slightly better operation at head along with velocity at the expense
(slight again) of some flow>
The corner overflow on the AGA 55 is
fairly small. It also has a Stockman standpipe. I simply cannot fit a
tee to 3/4" pipe.
<understood>
How many outlets for a tank of this
size? Forever grateful, Ken
<6-10 would be nice... best regards,
Anthony> Questions about plumbing a "hard" water return line
9/20/04
I have read Mr. Calfo's article entitled "Plumbing a
Water Return Manifold" and have built one.
<neato>
Should I glue the pieces together, with the obvious exemptions being the
tee's that need to swivel?
<Correct... glue the closed
loop and its downward angled tees... but leave the nipples/stems and
elbows/tees stuck into the outlet tees unglued>
It is made out of
3/4'' pvc and was worried about pvc glue leeching chemicals into the
tank once it is in use.
<no worries... is fine once
cured>
Also, I had a question about whether or not to make it one
piece, a sort of "closed loop."
<Hmmm... you simply must
if your tees are open and not regulated with valves on each one. The
closed loop circle is critical for a manifold to build/maintain more
equal pressure>
Currently, it is in two pieces, to allow for the
SCWD wavemaker to be able to blast each side independently, but I am
wondering if I should make the manifold all one piece to make the flow
more "balanced" overall.
<exactly correct>
Also,
about how many outlets should there be?
<depends on the
needs of the inhabitants in the tank. I'd guess a tank this size will
need/want about 4-6 here too or more>
I know the article recommends
4 to 6, but currently, mine has 11 outlets fitted with 1/2'' Loc-Line
adapters, to better direct the flow of each outflow. The return pump is
a Pond Master 12b that should be running at about 1000 gph after
calculating head loss.
<wow... this is staggeringly low flow. You
will simply be disappointed how little flow 1000GPH is through 11
outlets... a literal trickle of less than 100 gph per outlet>
The
total water volume is about 75 gallons, if that helps.
<if this is a reef... I'd love to see at least 1500 gph of circulation
in this loop. With 4-6 outlets... they would have reasonably good
strength>
I would like to create a suitable habitat for some easier
to keep, colorful corals and other invertebrates (zoanthids, starburst
polyps, a clam or two, perhaps a BTA, etc.) if at all possible. Any
suggestions for some "guinea-pig" species of the above mentioned things
to see how well they do?
<all fine... but please resist mixing any
anemones (motile) in an unnatural mix with corals (sessile). Its a
problem for most in the long term. We answer enough sad queries from
problems in such mixes>
I hope these questions make sense to you,
let me know if anything needs clarification, I can also send pictures if
you would like.
Thank you very much for your time. Jeremy Weaver
<best regards, Anthony>
Plumbing 9/30/04
Dear The
Gang at WWM,
<howdy>
Let me first start off by saying thanks for
the amazing service that you and the WWM provide. It’s a wonderful and
invaluable resource of information.
<thanks kindly! Please do tell a
friend... hmmm, and recruit another volunteer to help us in the process
<G>>
I often find myself up till 2 or 3 in the morning trying to
learn as much as I can about having a Reef Aquarium.
I was reading
your article by Anthony Calfo entitled Plumbing A Water Return Manifold
– “goodbye powerheads!”. I had a similar idea and was wondering if it
would be more beneficial to make the manifold going around the back of
the aquarium?
<whatever is most convenient for your physical
placement/layout of the aquarium>
By just adding a second 90 at the
top and have it run along the back of the aquarium, you can have two
sets of return jets in the back corner of the tank, at three different
levels in your aquarium. And the bottom of the manifold would just be
straight pipe with 30 - 1/8” holes in it to aerate the substrate and
behind the live rock.
<the later being interesting but not necessary
when you have adequate random turbulent water flow overall... and most
importantly, have not made the mistake of building your reefscape
against (leaning) any wall like so many folks do against the back of the
tank (bad long term)>
And would it be possible to incorporate a
30-gallon refugium in the system?
<certainly>
If so can you
direct me in the right direction to where I can find out the best way of
doing that?
<we have an extensive refugium chapter in our latest
book "Reef Invertebrates" by Calfo and Fenner... and have some great
archived FAQs on refugia>
Thank you so much for your assistance. Joe
Othman
<best regards! Anthony>
Closed loop manifold
Hey Gurus!
<Stephan>
I was wondering if you tell me where, in the
back of the tank, where should I put a bulkhead intake for a closed loop
powering a manifold? Top, bottom, middle?
<Near the top usually...
for a few reasons... to ensure more complete circulation, help with
removing surface "scum", and sometimes very importantly, should the
plumbing fail, to disallow the tank to drain completely>
I am also
worried about the intake sucking precious animals like snails and such.
The bulkhead is 1 1/2". Can I split it to two 1" instead?
<You can...
but this may not allow sufficient intake volume/flow... remember, the
surface area of a circle formula? Pi R squared? How much larger is one 1
1/2" fitting than two 1"? Better to have two fittings joined or leading
separately back though...>
Can anything be rigged like some kind of
strainer box covering the hole(s)?
<Yes... these can be purchased or
made... like lengths of capped pipe with cut perpendicular openings...>
Thanks yet again
Stephan
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Return
spray bar
Hi,
<Hello>
I've been reading the FAQs and
searching setup info via google.
However, I can't seem to find a
good answer to my problem.
I'm building a new tank - mainly planning
to keep 2 or 3 fish, live rock, some soft corals, anemone and a clown
fish. The tank size is a room divider (visible both sides) with
dimensions of 60 x 18 x 30 high.
<Quite high/tall for the stated
length... and likely height from the floor... if not too late, I
encourage you to consider lowering this to 24 inches... much easier to
get your arms into as well...>
I've got a Dolphin 2100 plumbed from
the sump to the tank using a 1" which is teed to two 3/4" hoses. The
pump is just under 6 ft below the top of the aquarium. So, the problem
is that the returns from the 3/4" hoses don't generate enough current
around the tank with 3/4 inch 45 degree pvc outlets at the top of the
tank (on opposite ends).
<Good descriptions>
Therefore, I
connected the 3/4" into a couple of spray bars. One of the spray bars
is near the surface. The other is actually plumbed from the opposite
end towards the center to three vertical spray bars that spray from the
bottom of the tank (I figured this was better since I plan to stock the
tank sparingly and want the flow to be at the bottom and push water up
towards the overflow.)
Illustration:
3/4" PVC
I
I
I
I
I l l 1/2" PVC
------------
l-----------l
1/2" PVC starts from elbow
The question I
have is ... how do I know if I have too many holes or not enough?
<Mmm, only from a practical application... i.e. trial and hopefully
no/little error>
I've drilled a bunch of omni-directional holes in
the 1/2" PVC.
(The 3/4" holes point towards the center of the
tank.) I don't know if I drilled too many or not enough.
<Better to
start with just a few, drill a few more later...>
I am trying to
maximize the water flow into the tank while delivering the flow closer
to where it's needed. In calculating the area of the holes, it looks
like I've drilled holes equivalent to 48% of the 1" hose cross sectional
area (coming from the pump). I'm hoping that this will help create good
velocity out of the 3/32" holes.
Thanks for the help!
<You raise
a few very good questions... common issues with plumbing, pumping of
captive aquatic systems... most aquarium pumps are designed/engineered
to produce "moderate" volumes at relatively "low" (compared with
swimming pool pumps let's say) head/pressure... Going through turns,
reductions (would be better to tee off, leave as much plumbing as the
discharge diameter on your volute (1")), holes... There are, as you will
likely agree, always "trade-offs" in life... and in this
microcosm/problem... I would plan on possibly adding internal pump/s,
powerheads (some are MUCH better than others... some input exists on WWM
re) to bolster your circulation if you find/feel it deficient here. Bob
Fenner> Re: return spray bar
Hi Bob,
<Ken>
Well,
after doing some experimenting, I followed your suggestion and removed
the fancy stuff and just terminated the returns at the top of the
aquarium with 45 degree elbows on opposite sides of the tank. I get a
significantly higher amount of volume/flow through this instead of all
of the fancy piping. I think I learned the value of concentrating
on flow instead of velocity.
Thanks!
Ken
<Life is a series
of compromises... the trade off in flow versus pressure appears to be a
mini-lesson. Bob Fenner>
- Plumbing a Closed Loop -
Hi good guys. I am now plumbing a closed loop. The pump I am using is a
Dolphin Amp Master 2100 and has a 1 1/2" inlet. I planning on drilling
the back of the tank for the inlet near the top, and in the
center. My dilemma is because of the sucking power of this pump can
any animals get sucked on the screen on the wet side? <Certainly.> I
thought maybe would make some sort of Tee with 1 1/2" to two 1". I will
add two screen on those and hope it wont be as much sucking power. I
also would like to know if I can protect the area around those screens
better so no animals gets caught? <There is an almost-flat intake screen
made for 1.5" bulkheads which is designed to distribute the suction
across a larger surface area and helps prevent animals from getting
injured. I would go to great lengths to seek one of these out.> Perhaps
I can build some kind of box with holes around the intakes? <Or surround
with live rock.> Help!
Thanks for all the great advise
Sincerely
Stephan
<Cheers, J -- > Tank move, lighting
choices and closed loops 2/3/05
First off, I'm amazed at the info
I've learned from streaming through all these pages. Thank you ahead of
time again.
<Glad you have benefited!>
I am moving to Florida and
must break my 180g down. Possibly several months before I will be able
to restart. Unfortunately will not be able to save LR but can reseed
it.
<If you can't save the live rock, please sell it or give it
away. Once it dries, I would not suggest trying to re-use it. It will be
full of organic matter from all of the bacteria and tiny critters that
died upon drying.>
Current FOWLR, next set-up to be reef (some SPS,
Mostly LPS, 1 xenia, 1 clam). Tank is 72x24x24. After the sandbed, the
water column will be 20". Currently, I am looking at the Coralife
Aqualight Pro HQI 3x150W DE HQI, 4x96 Actinic. Obviously, I will replace
MH lamps w/Aqualine bulbs. Will this offer enough light if specimens
placed at appropriate heights? Any good or bad remarks\reviews for this
product? Or should I purchase another manufacturer? <My experience with
Coralife lighting products is mixed. If you are going to replace the
lamps with Aqualine lamps anyway, why not look at AquaMedic fixtures?
They have a better reputation for quality and the lamps you want will be
included in the (admittedly much higher) price. Aquamedic produces
fixtures with PC's or T-5's.>
I plan on adding large refugium and
closed-loop water flow to hit around 20x turnover, but having some
problems with schematics currently, any thoughts? I want to plan ahead.
<Sounds good, but I am not sure what to suggest without a little more to
go on. From the cuff... Be sure that the inlets to your closed loop
diffuse the suction effectively (no sucking up fishies!) and use as few
T's and elbows as possible.>
Any thoughts on placing my skimmer AquaC
EV240 outside my sump (changing water levels in sump tend to really play
havoc-awesome skimmer though)?
<You could place it outside of the
sump, or simply elevate it so that the outlet will always be higher than
the water level in the sump.>
You have always been so helpful. I
print out a ream of FAQ and just read and read, then reverse paper and
print on other side-another 2 inch stack of FAQ. Wife thinks I'm crazy.
Thanks <Glad to help! All of our spouses think we're crazy! Best
Regards. AdamC.>
Perimeter, Closed Loop Manifold for Water 2/7/05
Forgive me
if you have answered this question, but I couldn't find it in a
Google search. I would like to add a return manifold to my existing
system for additional circulation. The 1" drain from my internal
overflow will not support any more flow...
<This is common among
under-sized/drilled, so-called "reef-ready" tanks. No worries
though... run a safe and modest flow through this overflow for your
sump, but drive your manifold with a submersible pump in the display
such as a Mag drive... or an external pump tapped into the display
tank wall. This will allow you to drive the manifold with good
strong flow>
...so I would like to add a external pump that pulls
water directly from the display tank, and not use sump water.
<BINGO!>
However I cannot drill my tank, and I would rather not
have an external overflow.
<The heat is a small issue in most
tanks for submersible Mag drives... do consider since you can't
drill>
And for aesthetic and heat generation reasons, I would
rather not have the pump inside the display tank.
<hmmm... OK>
Would the design illustrated in the attached .jpg work?
<Not
safely>
If a pump specifies that is not self-priming, how would I
initially get the water through the intake PVC to the pump?
<By
no safe/reliable means I know of... you will burn out this pump
eventually>
Would it stay primed, if the water level in the tank
never dropped below the PVC intake?
<Most of the time I suspect>
Are there other issues I am not thinking of?
<Yes... principally
air bubbles that accumulate in the display that can interrupt this
prime>
I have also thought of running the intake PVC down into my
internal overflow housing so it is not visible when viewing the
aquarium.
<Impossible... the air/turbulence>
What kind of
issues would this cause, if any?
<As per above>
Thanks for any
help you can give.
<Without a submersible pump or drilling the
tank, you are beat like the proverbial red-headed step-child. Best
of luck, Anthony> | 
|
Closed Loop Configuration
Hey there-
<Good evening- Scott F.
here tonight!>
My little giant pump on my 125 is rated at about 1300
gallons per hour. I currently have just two outlets with ball and socket
flex tubing. Would you recommend that I just place a couple powerheads
in the tank or possibly use a mag drive pump plumbed from the 3/4" hole
in the overflow box (normally used for return from sump) for a closed
loop and plumb the main return from the sump behind and over the tank
instead of up through the overflow box. The closed loop return lines
would also run behind and then into the tank. The only problem is that
I don't know if the all glass overflows can handle much more flow
through them unless the slits at the top of boxes were widened. The
other option would be to plumb an intake in front of the overflow box
and then down through the box as Richard Durso has described. I hope
all of this isn't to confusing. Thanks for your help.
Josh
<Well,
Josh-you do have a variety of options for the closed loop. The most
common configurations that I have seen simply have intakes in bulkhead
fittings installed into the side of the tank, never having anything to
do with the overflow box(es). Richard Durso's idea is good, too- he has
a nice idea and makes one heck of a good standpipe, too! I guess my
recommendation would be to do whichever configuration you are most
comfortable with. And, do check with the people at All Glass regarding
the flow rates that their overflows can handle...Sorry I couldn't be
more specific-like I said, so many ways to accomplish the same thing!
Good luck Scott F.> Overflow- undersized as usual
Quick
question I keep forgetting to ask. I have 2 1.5" bulkheads drilled into
the back corners of my 75gallon tank. I am wanting to surface skim by
putting 90 degree elbow attached to the bulkhead in the tank. (also help
in the event of power failure/siphon) But... I can not get rid of the
water swirling/sucking into the elbow. Looks like a tornado sucking
into the 90 elbow and in sounds terrible. Any suggestion on what I can
try? Thanks Bryan
<this is a common problem bud... the overflows are
simply too small in size or number. A common problem. What is happening
is that your "oversized pump" (really not too big... just too much for
the lack of holes/size) is pumping faster than they can gravity overflow
and a siphon is being created (the sucking noise). Put a gate valve on
the outflow of the pump and slowly restrict its volume returned topside
until the noise stops. How ironic... you'll have to restrict the pump
and then add power heads in the main tank to compensate for the lack of
water flow (adding heat, electricity, eyesore, etc). Bummer dude... but
a common problem from bad advice and poor overflow design by the
manufacturers of tanks. Best regards, Anthony> Closed Loop
7/22/03
Okay, now that I understand the principles involved, I
think I want to make a closed loop work. I figure I'll need to run a
siphon over the edge (can hide it in the rocks) to supply the pump as
the two 3/4" bulkheads will not handle the extra flow necessary which I
figure is about 2,000GPH (shooting for 3,200GPH total).
<I do
not/will not recommend an over the tank siphon for any
reason/application. They are archaic and prone to fail in time. In this
case... at the expense of burning out your pump of it should lose prime.
Closed loops as stated before are tapped into the tank. Literally tapped
- two drilled holes... shut-offs coming off that... then quick
disconnects... then the pump in between. All for convenient pump
cleaning or replacement without draining the tank later. Do visit the
message boards for perspective from many others that have tried this. A
common strategy with SPS keepers>
If I want the siphon to handle the
total flow, what size do I need? 1.5"? 2"? What kind of strainer should
I have on the business end?
<the pump has an inlet and outlet
size/tolerance. Simply follow the pump/mfg specs. And I prefer a coarse
foam block on the intake if it will be serviced regularly...
better/safer would be a sturdy filter cage like we use on pond pumps for
leaf litter>
One thing I have going for me is that I can run a
manifold above the perimeter of the tank just about any way I want to. I
know there are unlimited options in tweaking this sort of thing but
where should I start? three 1" outlets? Four or five 3/4" outlets?
<depends on the pump again... my friend. You are putting the cart before
the horse. That said... 6 outlets on a four foot tank are in the ball
park with 3/4 or 1" pipe>
Should I bother with Sea-Swirls?
<they
are fantastic... just pricey>
My tank is 69X24X24 so I estimate the
net volume (minus two corner overflows) at 164 gallons. Thanks for your
patience and also your books which I found after I have made a couple of
mistakes but in time to help me correct them. George
<slow down and
enjoy the journey, bud :) its a beautiful hobby. I would strongly
suggest you take some road trips to regional aquarium societies and
stores to spy their aquariums and plumbing to put this all in
perspective. E-mail can only do so much. Best regards, Anthony>
- Plumbing a Closed Loop -
Hi again. I have (another) question
for you all. This is a quick one, I promise. I'm finally ready to
install a closed loop on my 55 gallon tank (thanks for the advice on
this a few months back!). My question is: I have a quiet one 4000 pump
which has a 1" outlet that will be feeding the closed loop, coming from
a small tank below main tank. Should I keep it 1" PVC for the loop or
should I reduce it down to 3/4" PVC and if so, does it matter where I
put the reducer pipe? <I'd go ahead and reduce it down - near the pump.>
The pump should be pumping about 750-800gph after factoring in the 3'
head going into the tank. <Perhaps a little less with the reduction in
the output. Should still be plenty for a 55.> I will be putting about
(any advice - more or less T's?) 6 movable T's spaced through out the
perimeter of the tank - except for the back left wall. This is where
the overflow box and hang on skimmer is so no pipe can go
there... What's your take on this? <Sounds fine to me.> I've actually
bought the 3/4" pipe etc. but now I'm not sure if I should be reducing
it or not? <Would be best to maintain the same diameter as output on the
pump throughout, but 1" pipe will dominate the top of your tank if you
are building a manifold.> Hoping to get the most flow possible so I can
get rid of powerheads... <Mmm... can understand the aesthetics
motivations.>
Thanks once again. You all are great and your advice
is well appreciated.
Jan
<Cheers, J -- > - Closed Loop
Plumbing -
Hello WWMCrew!
I am having a 180 AGA Reef Ready
tank custom drilled for a closed loop. I had initially though that four
2inch holes placed at different levels on the back glass along with two
1inch holes placed about six inches up from the bottom of the tank (also
on back glass) would allow for good flow throughout the tank. The
arrangement would be as follows - two of the 2inch connected to the
intake and one of the 1inch connected to the output of a little giant
4mdqx-sc and then the other three connected in a similar fashion on
their own little giant 4mdqx-sc pump. <Hmm... a little scary. I wouldn't
feed anything from drains below the water line. If a pump or plumbing
fails, your tank will drain until it can't... and that would be a huge
mess. I would feed your closed loop from one of the stock overflows.>
Additionally, I am considering plumbing the return holes in such a
fashion that I can split the return several ways and "snake the return
lines to different positions in the reef stack. I thought about cycling
the pumps off every four hours to try to generate a more "random" flow -
but I'm concerned that this will not be good for the life of the pump.
<Your thinking is correct, you will destroy the pumps.> I'm also
concerned about the size and number of holes I am contemplating putting
into the back glass. All that said would I be better off to reduce the
number of holes by half and add two of the Tunze Turbelle pumps
positioned so that they point at each other? <That's what I would
suggest.>
Attached is the initial placement jpeg...
Thanks so
much!
Lisa
<Cheers, J -- > - Re: Closed Loop Plumbing -
Truly confused now! I have read that using the overflows are bad
practice for closed loops because of limited real estate for holes in
the bottom - especially on the AGA tanks --- and depending on how they
are plumbed, they can exceed the capacity of the of the overflow.
<That's what valves are for.> I have seen where people drill holes in
the side of the over flows - but that puts you in the same situation of
the tank draining if a pump fails... <Actually not... the overflow
contains a limited amount of water. If there were a power failure, all
that would drain would be the water in the overflow box, and not the
contents of the tank.> Not sure how to proceed at this point. <What
happened to the two Tunze Stream pumps?>
At any rate I have
re-thought my original design and am going to limit the holes to four;
two midway up the back glass for pump input and two about 6 inches up
the back glass for return and try using SCWD's internally on the returns
to vary the flow throughout the reef. I have read that they can be used
internally or externally - but I don't have any experience with these
devices so any input on SCWD's used in an internal application would be
great... <Will work fine internally, although you may find that you need
to clamp the hoses on the SCWD is the water pressure is too high.> BTW -
hole sizes are also changed (gone down) from the original to 1 1/2 inch
for the pump input and 3/4 inch for the pump return! This design
modification will also allow me to not power cycle the pumps off every 4
hours! <Ahh good.>
Thanks in advance! --- Lisa
<Cheers, J -- >
Many Manifold Questions...
Dear Crew,
<Scott F. your Crew
member today>
Reading through your plumbing articles and FAQs has
inspired me to redo my reef plumbing. I especially love the closed loop
manifold and am thinking I need to mosey on down to the local hardware
store to start picking up some PVC.
<Great idea, fun to plan and
build, and really useful!>
I have a couple of questions before I
mosey, though.
<Sure..>
I have an in-sump Mag 9.5 whose return
line is upgraded to a 1" flex hose. The return line travels five feet
to the top of the tank and will connect to a 3/4" pvc closed loop
manifold.
Question one: Wouldn't 8-45 degree angles in each corner
rather than four 90 degree angles help to prevent the water return
pressure from reducing in the manifold?
<Good question, and I suppose
the answer really depends on the outlets' distance from the pump. On the
other hand, you want a fairly sizeable number of outlets for maximum
water dispersion/circulation, so it may be better to go with the greater
number of outlets at lower pressure...You may have to experiment a bit
before the manifold is installed...>
Question two: I plan on having
six outlet Tee's, one in each corner between the 45 degree angles, one
in the center of each long side. The tank is 36"LX18"X18". What I
haven't been able to determine searching through the plumbing/manifold
FAQs is what size should the flexi ball socket tubing for the outlets
be, 3/4" or 1/2". I'd like to get the best flow possible coming out of
the outlets-not too weak, not too restricted.
<Agreed...If it were
me, I'd go for the 3/4">
Thanks again for all the help you folks have
given me and fellow aquarists. Chris
<Always a pleasure! Good luck
and have fun! Regards, Scott F>
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