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A Fork In The Circulation Road/Closed
Looped Systems/Wavemakers 2/2/10
Closed loop... alternative to powerheads, heat production 11/8/06 Greetings from Canada... A couple of quick questions.... 1-a closed loop of 6' long x1' wide powered by an 1800g/hr Mag drive pump. How many outlets (minimum/maximum) can it handle to deliver adequate flow through 1/2" CPVC? It's a 125 gallon tank...72"x18"x24".. <Mmm... six to eight is about maximum/ideal here> The loop will be hung from the cross members in the centre of the tank as it's impossible for me to run it along the perimeter or build a sump. 2-The pump is going to be hung inside of the tank. Will it cause heat issues? <Will contribute to 1/2mVsquared here to an extent, yes> I currently run 8 powerheads <! Time to look into fewer, more powerful? Perhaps a "Tunze" Christmas this year?> so will there be much heat difference as I will obviously be removing the powerheads have appr 120 liverock 5" oolite aragonite sandbed and a remora pro skimmer. Thanks for your time and response...Pete <Only real time, experience can/will tell here... Mag pumps run hot... I suspect hotter than your collective powerhead assemblage currently. Bob Fenner> Plumbing, marine, closed loop Hi Guys....wonderful site. Many thanks >>Thanks back!<< A quick question if I may? I have a 75g display, 30 g sump/refugium. Plumbing is a 1" bulkhead (I.D.) drilled at the back in the tank with a flexible hose going into the sump with a Mag Drive 9.5 forcing the water back up over the rim of the tank into a single elbow/effluent. A lot of flow/velocity...too much laminar I'm afraid. But So far....the balancing act is perfect. Water level in sump matches the pumps output pretty nicely as there is no need to use the ball valve to divert flow. (this seems to defy the 600 gph flow rate I read about with a 1" bulkhead) I have been reading Anthony's suggestion about making a return manifold to more evenly disperse the water throughout the tank. Probably will give that a go this weekend. >>Great. Such a manifold works out very nicely.<< Also, I have 2 small Rio's in the tank for additional flow,(240 gph each) along with a Euroreef CS-6 skimmer in the sump stirring things up even further. Will this be adequate flowage for my setup? I do not have any livestock in the tank yet...just 130 lbs of Fiji rock. After scouring your site...I've seen that 20x tank volume is pretty much the norm these days. I do want a few fish...but mainly corals and inverts. >>You don't really need 20x moving through the sump. More flow in the main tank is nice though. >>The Rio's make me a little nervous though, they have a rep for burning/shorting out<< I was wondering if adding a closed loop system would help? Or, is this overkill/un-necessary? >>If you want more flow, sure! Sadly, the amount of flow in a tank is partly a function of the corals you keep and personal preference. I know on my tank, I never seem to have enough flow regardless of all the extra closed loops I add!<< I do not want to drill additional holes for plumbing, so I was thinking about looping pvc from the top of the display tank, gravity feeding into another Mag-drive of some sort, (size recommendation would be helpful) then shoot right back up into the display (no even going into the sump...just independent) maybe splitting the effluent into 2 feeds? ("T") this way...could I eliminate the Rio's inside the tank? >>Sounds good to me. I like removing any kind of power head from the tank, and I run my closed loops over the top instead of drilling - I think it give greater flexibility for the future. You can also look into a device called a SCWD that is basically a 'T' that alternates the current between both sides of the 'T' by a series of gears powered by the water flow. There are, or course, more expensive options like the oceans motions 'Squirt' - I just got one to replace two SCWD's and I love it so far! As for pump size, that depends on how much flow you want. Mag 9.5's seem to be a good all around size. << Thanks so much for the insight... >>Hope it helps!<< Mike Gaydos >>Rich<< Re: Plumbing, marine, closed loop Hi Rich,
Thanks again for taking the time to respond to me. All this information
is surely a lot to digest for a newbie like myself, but I keep reading
and learning. Anyway, I guess my main misunderstanding about flow rates
comes into play when the term "turnover" is used. I thought
20x tank volume meant all water must go thru the sump. So then what you
are telling me is not all of that 20x must go thru the sump but rather
just get "moved around" by a combination of sump, skimmer,
powerheads in display, and closed loops?? >>That is exactly what
I am telling you! Its important that there is 'enough' flow
around the corals, not that all the water must pass through
the sump>> Could you please tell me what the desirable amount of
water MUST move thru the sump/skimmer to be effective at filtration and
the rest just for water movement? >>I can give you a sideways
answer - as much as possible.
In my case, 600 gph
moving thru overflow/ return, 350 gph thru skimmer, and possibly
another 600 gph moving thru a closed loop over the top of the tank be
adequate? Sure seems like a lot to me.... >>The skimmer
doesn't count as flow or turnover unless it is a HOB skimmer. The
animals in the tank could take more flow, but you don't have to add
more unless they need it. Does it move around the tank briskly? Are
there no dead spots? Then you are fine! >>
One other question please about closed
loops. How do you prime the pump if it is fed by the line hung over the
top of the tank? >>The easy way is to fill the line of the loop
with water before you hang it over the top of the tank. You can also
plumb in an ball valve above the tank so you can open it and fill the
line with water. That makes sense, really>> I'm sure the
supply must at least originate roughly in the middle of the tank with
some sort of filter/screen over it as not to suck in anything
undesirable? >>Screen yes. You can put the intake where ever you
like in the tank (I hide mine behind the rockwork) or if your overflow
will take the extra flow, you can stick it in the overflow.>>
Once it is primed...it should continue on until power is disrupted or
would it continue to siphon? >>Yep! (ok...that was 2 questions)
>>3!>> Oh....one more....please......where does one drill
the anti-siphon hole in the manifold as described by
Anthony? Cant have it above the water or it will spray while
running....so in the "loop" somewhere pointed downward or is
it even necessary at all? >>Some people don't use them, but
they are a good idea. If the power goes out, the manifold will continue
to siphon your tank. The anti siphon hole does go slightly above the
water line, drilled in such a way as to point slightly downwards so its
'spray' doesn't hurt anything.>> Thanks so
much....really! Sincerely Mike Gaydos (rookie) >>My
pleasure!>> Water flow options: manifolds 3/16/05 Dear Anthony <Cheers, mate> I read with interest your article on flow in a reef tank. I, like most aquarists with an advanced set-up have more than my fair share of Maxi jet powerheads in the tank. I have however got a very large Eheim 1080 with a return overflow box servicing most of the flow within the tank so flow is quite turbulent (on the return side of the tank). I do however have dead spots which I have removed (not very successfully) with the use of an array of powerheads. <Indeed... that's a challenging way to go about it> Do you know of a method of attaching LocLine modular hose to one of these buggers? If not then a pump that I can purchase here in the UK that I can sit in the sump and array with LocLine manifold and pipes? Would benefit from your suggestions here. <I do believe the closed loop manifold with a single pump or two is best for the long term. Do read the thread of links stickied at the top of the All Things Salty forum at reefcentral.com. A couple dozen fab threads with pics> PS Good article on flow by the way (anemone owners take heed). Regards Jim <Thanks kindly my friend :) Anthony> Closed Loop water circulation 3/16/05 I've been not able to see answer to a basic question about closed loop schedule. <do see the extensive list of links I have to this subject over in the "All Things Salty" forum at reefcentral.com. There is a sticky thread at the top of that forum... many posts with pics :)> My setup is a 180g reef + 75g sump. I setup a closed loop with two 1" intakes in the two overflow boxes to feed a Dolphin Ampmaster 3000. The return is made in 9 different locations in the tank. The tank has been running for 3 months and my soft corals and fish are doing fine so far. <ahh, good to hear> I run the closed loop continuously - no stop. Do you think it is a good idea or do I have to produce some kind of intermittence? thanks, Didier <random turbulence is very fine and arguably better. Leave it exactly as you have it. Wave timers are not needed. A waste of money IMO, although current switching devices (versus wave timers that shut off pumps intermittently) are novel. Anthony> Water Return Manifold 7/19/05 Dear WWM Crew, I just read over Anthony's article on water return manifolds and had a few questions regarding it. First, I gathered that it is usually used for larger systems but was wondering if it can also be used with smaller aquariums (ex. my 30g reef) <Yes> I'm sure it could be adapted to my aquarium but for a 30 gallon reef that will be holding some medium current LPS corals how many tee outlets should I use? <Four, six...> And finally should I add any special nozzles to the tees for better flow? <Could... I like the "Loc" types for ease of directing... there are threaded (male) bases available... to fit PVC female...> That's all I need to know for now. Oh, and before I forget, please give my regards to Anthony for a very well written and informing article. Thanks, Andrew <Will do. Bob Fenner> Internal Horizontal Overflow? 9/24/04 I have been reading the FAQ's on the internal horizontal overflow design by Anthony <its not much of an original idea, per se... but popularized with my "book of Coral Propagation" FWIW... I've used it for many years as have others. Its tidy and quiet... can be easily hidden too (encrusting inverts on an extended floor to the box> and would like to try this idea out on my new acrylic tank (approx. 140 gal). My tank measures 48" wide X 24" high X 28" deep. I have not had the overflow built or drilled yet as I want to make absolutely sure that they are located in the right place before I have them built/drilled. I was initially going to just build the standard internal overflow, but this new idea of the horizontal overflow has me intrigued. <yes... and besides sparing that dreadful and noisy floor-drilled tower... a horizontal box stretches thin surface overflow water for improved skimmer performance> I was planning on keeping some hardy soft corals and some reef safe fish, nothing extravagant yet. I was planning on doing all live rock filtration with a AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer, <excellent> small 15 gal refugium with macro algae (I don't have a lot of room in my stand), and a 6" deep sand bed (both in the refugium and main display). <all good> For lighting, I was going to either go all VHO's or metal halides with PC's. <pick your corals (a specific list by species) before you pick your lights... only then will you know what to opt for based on their actual needs> By the way, for a hood design how far should the lights be from the top of the acrylic tank and should I cover the two holes in the top acrylic plate/brace that give access for feeding, etc. <fluorescents should be no more than 3" off the surface... but halides need to be minimum 6-9"... higher if higher wattage MH lamps> My question is actually about the overflow and the manifold. I believe I read that about 2" from the top and sides for the holes (equally spaced) for the drain, and same for the return on the opposite end of the tank. Now, I have a Pan World 50PX-X (comparable to the Iwaki 30 RLXT) and want to maximize flow. What would you suggest based upon my setup would be the best design of the horizontal overflow as far as spacing, hole size and number of holes for the drain and return, <as long as you can comfortably and practically make it... the longer bos spreads surface over flow water thinner/better> and what would be the best design for the manifold. <little to worry about here... work around any structures needed... but essentially form a closed loop circuit fed by one supply tee for improved distribution of flow> Also, if the holes are about 2" from the top of the tank, is this going to adequately "skim" the surface of the water to provide maximum efficiency for the skimmer? <depends... if the nutrient load is high... this will work fine. But for hardcore reefs with good nutrient export, you will notice the benefit of the horizontal overflow more so here> Just though I'd ask plenty of questions before I have my tank drilled past the point of no return. Also, are the bulkheads just open on the inside of tank since there isn't a "pre-filter box" or do I need to in close the holes with some sort of "box"? <just strainers on the interior bulkheads> I love your site and am glad you guys are here to help educate us. Mahalo, Chris <thanks kindly... best of luck/Life to you. Anthony> Closed loop manifold 9/24/04 Hi Anthony. Can I build manifold as main return, or do I need to run it separately? Thank you <either way is fine my friend... some folks power it by their return pump... others use a submersible pump inside the tank to power it regardless of a sump pump or not :) kindly, Anthony> Powerheads v. Closed Loop This is in reference to 180 gallon
reef tank with sump in the basement. Possibilities for moving water
include: 1.) Two pumps in the basement returning water to the tank and
running in series (or parallel?) 2.) One pump in the basement returning
water from the sump to the tank, and 4 powerheads in the tank (maybe
with a wavemaker) 3.) One pump in the basement returning water from the
sump to the tank, and a closed loop (circulation only) with the pump
sitting upstairs underneath the tank. I don't see the advantage to
option #1, i.e., having two pumps downstairs pulling water from the
sump and running in series. By "in series" (or parallel?), I
understand this to mean that if one pump goes out the other one would
still carry the job (pulling water through the sump and the skimmer),
albeit at reduced capacity. But why do it in series? <I prefer
separate runs.> If you're that concerned about the pump failing,
it would probably be more efficient and cheaper in the long run just to
have a spare pump. <I am an aquarium maintenance professional that
works out of his home, so I see things from that perspective. While for
you and your own tank, you maybe perfectly happy with a spare pump
sitting unused in the house. I don't want any more stuff than I
already have to have around and I doubt any of my customers would want
one either. I try to consider every possible catastrophe and design
systems so that no matter what goes wrong they will continue to
function and not flood. It is a liability issue for me. Also, if a pump
were to fail, with two pumps, I can get to replacing the broken one
when I have time. If there is only one main pump, I would have to drop
every to fix it immediately.> Option #3 seems better than #2.
<Much better!> I perceive the advantages to using a closed loop
as follow: Aesthetics (no unsightly equipment in tank). And less heat
in the tank. In favor of using powerhead, I saw the following idea to
conceal equipment in the tank: do not make the rear center overflow
flush with the back of the tank, rather set it forward 6" or so
and hide the equipment behind the overflow. This also has the benefit
of flow coming into the overflow from all four sides. Your thoughts on
the above issue would be most appreciated. Aryeh L. Benjamin <While
closed loop circulation is very popular, I routinely hear of
individuals with a mobile invertebrate (anemones and snails are the
most common) being turned into chowder enough that I won't use one.
I prefer to get my 10-20 times turnover through overflows and return
pumps. -Steven Pro> |
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