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More FAQs about Plumbing Closed-Loop Return Manifold Rationale/Use
Related Articles: Plumbing Return Manifolds,
Plumbing Marine Systems, Refugiums,
Related FAQs: Closed Loop Recirculation 1,
Closed Loop Recirculation 2,
Closed Loop Recirculation 3,
& FAQs on: Designs,
Plumbing, Pumps,
Troubleshooting/Repair, &
Marine Plumbing 1, Marine Plumbing 2,
Marine Plumbing 3, Marine Plumbing
4, Marine Plumbing 5,
Marine Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7,
Plumbing 8, Plumbing 9,
Plumbing 11, Plumbing 12,
Plumbing 13, Plumbing 14,
Plumbing 15, Plumbing
16,
Plumbing 17,
Plumbing 18,
Make Up Water Systems,
Pumps, Plumbing,
Circulation,
Sumps, Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2,
Gear Selection for Circulation,
Pump Problems, Fish-Only
Marine Set-ups,
Fish-Only Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish
and Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems,
Coldwater Systems, Small Systems,
Large Systems, Water Changes, Surge
Devices, | 
Is this clear? |
Re: Marine Set-Up/Return Circulation Concept ... reefgeek cont.
4/8/06
Aloha WWM Crew!!!!!, <Hello John, James here today.>
"Reef Geek in training" here. Great site by the way...lots of great
ideas and pics!!!...thanks a lot. <You're welcome.> I have always
referred to your site for great info. I have scoured your site
looking for some answers to my circulation concept detailed below,
unfortunately without success. I have kept a FO tank for quite a
few years and now am making the "jump" into a reef. I'm taking my
time and doing a lot of research (maybe too much)....<Can never be
too much.> I learned that lesson from keeping my marine tank. I was
hoping you might be able to give me your opinion on a return system
I've planned and diagramed out. I have a 75 gallon tank 48 x 18 x
20. I know circulation needs to be a lot stronger than I'm
accustomed to, along with a lot of other things. I am trying to
ensure there are to be no "Dead Spots" with regards to circulation,
especially behind the reef itself where it meets the glass. <A good
idea.> I have an "in wall" set up for my tank giving the "window
effect" so the traditional rear reef wall reef won't work for
me. My aquascape is going to have 2 slopes on either side of the
tank....meeting in the middle. I'm just more concerned if this will
work and be worth my time, effort and $$. I know the trend is to do
a separate closed loop system but I'm really trying to stay away
from that concept. I'm extremely limited on cabinet space and due
to the "in wall" set up and plumbing it would be a nightmare if not
impossible. My thinking is I'd really hate to see the return flow
from my main return pump connected to my sump just "go to
waste"........so to speak......by simply pumping it back into the
display tank arbitrarily. Why not take that flow and by directing
to certain areas within the tank thereby putting it to good use.
<Indeed!> Anyways, here's my plan. As of right now my plans are to
use 2 Maxijet MP900 "Tunzean Like" mod.s located on either side of
the tank pointed at each other directing flow side to side, cycling
on a Chauvet timer. I know...bad idea with the timer cuz it will
shorten the life of the pumps, but I really like the "waving effect"
it the timer will produce with the corals so its worth prematurely
replacing the pumps at a cost of 30 bucks. <MaxiJets are one of the
few that work well with wave making timers. Should last quite some
time.> From my return standpipe I would construct either out of pvc
and/or loc-line a return system with "down tubes" placed behind each
reef wall as well as nozzles directing return flow from front to
back....directly opposite to the flow of the MaxiJets for a lot of
turbulence. Here's my diagram. |
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Re: Marine Set-Up/Return Circulation Concept 4/9/06
James, <John>
Thanks for the reply!!....from what you've said...I
think I'm gonna move forward with this. I do have one more "curve ball"
to throw your way. I have been doing some research on the SCWD. I'm
sure you are familiar with this device...just in case........
www.2iqventures.com
I'm tempted to install one of these at the top
of my return stand pipe and route loc-line and/or PVC in 2 separate
directions (equi-distant in length from the SCWD) still incorporating
the "down tubes". The SCWD would now allow me to direct nozzles both
front to back and back to front in an oscillating flow pattern....I like
that!!!! Do you see any issues with this? <No, give it a try, is a nice
unit.>
Also, correct me if I'm wrong here....isn't one of the goals
of a proper operating return system to have the flow rate of the
overflow match the flow rate back into the tank as closely as
possible? <Ideally, the overflow should be capable of handling a little
more flow than the pump can produce, eliminates fiddling with gate
valves.> If this is correct, then my flow rate at the top of the stand
pipe being approx 1150 gph even with the SCWD and all the T and L
fittings in line should still be pretty strong...thinking around 1000
gph. I'm not really sure of the flow rate of my overflow (1 inch PVC
stand pipe). I think its approx 850 - 900 gph. If this is true I will
need to tweak my gate valve to have them match.......make sense? <Yes.>
Lastly, if this is a viable concept.....then why even bother with a
closed loop system and it's extra costs?.. i.e.: extra pump and it's
associated monthly electrical bill. <Closed loop offers a little more
versatility and a cleaner look in the tank. Some aquarists look for
aesthetics, not wanting all this stuff in the view. Myself, I prefer
the wave making effect, believe the corals react better to this
concept. My galaxy coral loves it, very nice to watch the tentacles
shift back and forth.>
Thanks for the calculator...going there now
to do some math.
Again, thanks for all the help. <You're
welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
John |
Closed loop... alternative to powerheads, heat production 11/8/06
Greetings from Canada...
A couple of quick questions....
1-a
closed loop of 6' long x1' wide powered by an 1800g/hr mag drive pump.
How many outlets (minimum/maximum) can it handle to deliver adequate
flow through 1/2" CPVC? It's a 125 gallon tank...72"x18"x24"..
<Mmm... six to eight is about maximum/ideal here>
The loop will be
hung from the cross members in the centre of the tank as it's impossible
for me to run it along the perimeter or build a sump.
2-The pump is
going to be hung inside of the tank. Will it cause heat issues?
<Will contribute to 1/2mVsquared here to an extent, yes>
I currently
run 8 powerheads
<! Time to look into fewer, more powerful? Perhaps
a "Tunze" Christmas this year?>
so will there be much heat
difference as I will obviously be removing the powerheads have appr 120
liverock 5" oolite aragonite sandbed and a remora pro skimmer.
Thanks for your time and response...Pete
<Only real time, experience
can/will tell here... Mag pumps run hot... I suspect hotter than your
collective powerhead assemblage currently. Bob Fenner>
Plumbing, marine, closed loop
Hi Guys....wonderful site. Many
thanks
>>Thanks back!<<
A quick question if I may? I have a 75g
display, 30 g sump/refugium. Plumbing is a 1" bulkhead (I.D.) drilled at
the back in the tank with a flexible hose going into the sump with a mag
Drive 9.5 forcing the water back up over the rim of the tank into a
single elbow/effluent. A lot of flow/velocity...too much laminar I'm
afraid. But So far....the balancing act is perfect. Water level in sump
matches the pumps output pretty nicely as there is no need to use the
ball valve to divert flow. (this seems to defy the 600 gph flow rate I
read about with a 1" bulkhead) I have been reading Anthony's suggestion
about making a return manifold to more evenly disperse the water
throughout the tank. Probably will give that a go this weekend.
>>Great. Such a manifold works out very nicely.<<
Also, I have 2
small Rio's in the tank for additional flow,(240 gph each) along with a
Euroreef CS-6 skimmer in the sump stirring things up even further. Will
this be adequate flowage for my setup? I do not have any livestock in
the tank yet...just 130 lbs of Fiji rock.
After scouring your
site...I've seen that 20x tank volume is pretty much the norm these
days. I do want a few fish...but mainly corals and inverts.
>>You
don't really need 20x moving through the sump. More flow in the main
tank is nice though.
>>The Rio's make me a little nervous though,
they have a rep for burning/shorting out<<
I was wondering if adding
a closed loop system would help? Or, is this overkill/un-necessary?
>>If you want more flow, sure! Sadly, the amount of flow in a tank is
partly a function of the corals you keep and personal preference. I know
on my tank, I never seem to have enough flow regardless of all the extra
closed loops I add!<<
I do not want to drill additional holes for
plumbing, so I was thinking about looping pvc from the top of the
display tank, gravity feeding into another mag-drive of some sort, (size
recommendation would be helpful) then shoot right back up into the
display (no even going into the sump...just independent) maybe splitting
the effluent into 2 feeds? ("T") this way...could I eliminate the
Rio's inside the tank?
>>Sounds good to me. I like removing any kind
of power head from the tank, and I run my closed loops over the top
instead of drilling - I think it give greater flexibility for the
future. You can also look into a device called a SCWD that is basically
a 'T' that alternates the current between both sides of the 'T' by a
series of gears powered by the water flow. There are, or course, more
expensive options like the oceans motions 'Squirt' - I just got one to
replace two SCWD's and I love it so far! As for pump size, that depends
on how much flow you want. Mag 9.5's seem to be a good all around size.
<<
Thanks so much for the insight...
>>Hope it helps!<<
Mike
Gaydos
>>Rich<<
Re: Plumbing, marine, closed loop
Hi Rich, Thanks again for taking the time to respond to me. All this
information is surely a lot to digest for a newbie like myself, but I
keep reading and learning. Anyway, I guess my main misunderstanding
about flow rates comes into play when the term "turnover" is used. I
thought 20x tank volume meant all water must go thru the sump. So then
what you are telling me is not all of that 20x must go thru the sump but
rather just get "moved around" by a combination of sump, skimmer,
powerheads in display, and closed loops??
>>That is exactly what I
am telling you! Its important that there is 'enough' flow around the
corals, not that all the water must pass through the sump>>
Could
you please tell me what the desirable amount of water MUST move thru the
sump/skimmer to be effective at filtration and the rest just for water
movement?
>>I can give you a sideways answer - as much as possible.
In my case, 600 gph moving thru overflow/ return, 350 gph thru
skimmer, and possibly another 600 gph moving thru a closed loop over the
top of the tank be adequate? Sure seems like a lot to me....
>>The
skimmer doesn't count as flow or turnover unless it is a HOB skimmer.
The animals in the tank could take more flow, but you don't have to add
more unless they need it. Does it move around the tank briskly? Are
there no dead spots? Then you are fine! >>
One other question
please about closed loops. How do you prime the pump if it is fed by the
line hung over the top of the tank?
>>The easy way is to fill the
line of the loop with water before you hang it over the top of the tank.
You can also plumb in an ball valve above the tank so you can open it
and fill the line with water. That makes sense, really>>
I'm sure
the supply
must at least originate roughly in the middle of the tank
with some sort of filter/screen over it as not to suck in anything
undesirable?
>>Screen yes. You can put the intake where ever you
like in the tank (I hide mine behind the rockwork) or if your overflow
will take the extra flow, you can stick it in the overflow.>>
Once
it is
primed...it should continue on until power is disrupted or
would it continue to siphon?
>>Yep!
(ok...that was 2 questions)
>>3!>>
Oh....one more....please......where does one drill the
anti-siphon hole in the manifold as described by Anthony? Cant have it
above the water or it will spray while running....so in the "loop"
somewhere pointed downward or is it even necessary at all?
>>Some
people don't use them, but they are a good idea. If the power goes out,
the manifold will continue to siphon your tank. The anti siphon hole
does go slightly above the water line, drilled in such a way as to point
slightly downwards so its 'spray' doesn't hurt anything.>>
Thanks so
much....really!
Sincerely
Mike Gaydos (rookie)
>>My
pleasure!>> Re: closed loop
Can I take squeeze in another
closed loop question? I'm pretty clear on flow rate now...thanks to you.
Could a person who only has the lone 1" overflow bulkhead installed
(with limited 600 gph capacity) plumb in a closed loop hung over the top
of the tank.....gravity fed into a pump, but them have the effluent
merge into the manifold to increase volume that way? The manifold will
be 3/4 with at least 6 elbows/returns. Should have plenty on room in
there for the extra flow provided by the closed loop?!?
This make
sense?
>>Makes sense but is generally considered a bad idea because
it makes the pumps 'compete', or push against each other>>
One last
thing.....Will the Kansas City Chiefs be able to make the playoffs with
the rather rocky 1-3 start this season?
>>Sadly, no>>
And if you
could supply me with
the winning Powerball lottery numbers that
would be cool too...
Thanks a bunch.
>>7 3 8 9 5 33>>
Mike
>>My pleasure>>
>>Rich>> Water flow options: manifolds 3/16/05
Dear Anthony
<Cheers, mate>
I read with interest your article on
flow in a reef tank. I, like most aquarists with an advanced set-up have
more than my fair share of Maxi jet powerheads in the tank. I have
however got a very large Eheim 1080 with a return overflow box servicing
most of the flow within the tank so flow is quite turbulent (on the
return side of the tank). I do however have dead spots which I have
removed (not very successfully) with the use of an array of powerheads.
<Indeed... that's a challenging way to go about it>
Do you know of a
method of attaching LocLine modular hose to one of these buggers? If not
then a pump that I can purchase here in the UK that I can sit in the
sump and array with LocLine manifold and pipes? Would benefit from your
suggestions here.
<I do believe the closed loop manifold with a
single pump or two is best for the long term. Do read the thread of
links stickied at the top of the All Things Salty forum at
reefcentral.com. A couple dozen fab threads with pics>
PS Good
article on flow by the way (anemone owners take heed).
Regards Jim
<Thanks kindly my friend :) Anthony> Closed Loop water
circulation 3/16/05
I've been not able to see answer to a basic
question about closed loop schedule.
<do see the extensive list of
links I have to this subject over in the "All Things Salty" forum at
reefcentral.com. There is a sticky thread at the top of that forum...
many posts with pics :)>
My setup is a 180g reef + 75g sump. I setup
a closed loop with two 1" intakes in the two overflow boxes to feed a
Dolphin Ampmaster 3000.
The return is made in 9 different locations
in the tank. The tank has been running for 3 months and my soft corals
and fish are doing fine so far.
<ahh, good to hear>
I run the
closed loop continuously - no stop. Do you think it is a good idea or do
I have to produce some kind of intermittence? thanks, Didier
<random
turbulence is very fine and arguably better. Leave it exactly as you
have it. Wave timers are not needed. A waste of money IMO, although
current switching devices (versus wave timers that shut off pumps
intermittently) are novel. Anthony> Water Return
Manifold 7/19/05
Dear WWM Crew,
I just read over
Anthony's article on water return manifolds and had a few questions
regarding it. First, I gathered that it is usually used for larger
systems but was wondering if it can also be used with smaller aquariums
(ex. my 30g reef)
<Yes>
I'm sure it could be adapted to my
aquarium but for a 30 gallon reef that will be holding some medium
current LPS corals how many tee outlets should I use?
<Four, six...>
And finally should I add any special nozzles to the
tees for better flow?
<Could... I like the "Loc" types for ease of
directing... there are threaded (male) bases available... to fit PVC
female...>
That's all I need to know for now. Oh, and before I
forget, please give my regards to Anthony for a very well written and
informing article.
Thanks, Andrew
<Will do. Bob Fenner>
Internal Horizontal Overflow? 9/24/04
I have been reading the
FAQ's on the internal horizontal overflow design by Anthony
<its not
much of an original idea, per se... but popularized with my "book of
Coral Propagation" FWIW... I've used it for many years as have others.
Its tidy and quiet... can be easily hidden too (encrusting inverts on an
extended floor to the box>
and would like to try this idea out on my
new acrylic tank (approx. 140 gal). My tank measures 48" wide X 24"
high X 28" deep. I have not had the overflow built or drilled yet as I
want to make absolutely sure that they are located in the right place
before I have them built/drilled. I was initially going to just build
the standard internal overflow, but this new idea of the horizontal
overflow has me intrigued.
<yes... and besides sparing
that dreadful and noisy floor-drilled tower... a horizontal box
stretches thin surface overflow water for improved skimmer performance>
I was planning on keeping some hardy soft corals and some reef safe
fish, nothing extravagant yet. I was planning on doing all live rock
filtration with a AquaC EV-180 protein skimmer,
<excellent>
small 15 gal refugium with macro algae (I don't have a lot of room in my
stand), and a 6" deep sand bed (both in the refugium and main display).
<all good>
For lighting, I was going to either go all VHO's or metal
halides with PC's.
<pick your corals (a specific list by
species) before you pick your lights... only then will you know what to
opt for based on their actual needs>
By the way, for a hood design
how far should the lights be from
the top of the acrylic tank and
should I cover the two holes in the top acrylic plate/brace that give
access for feeding, etc.
<fluorescents should be no more
than 3" off the surface... but halides need to be minimum 6-9"... higher
if higher wattage MH lamps>
My question is actually about the
overflow and the manifold. I believe I read that about 2" from the top
and sides for the holes (equally spaced) for the drain, and same for the
return on the opposite end of the tank. Now, I have a Pan World 50PX-X
(comparable to the Iwaki 30 RLXT) and want to maximize flow. What would
you suggest based upon my setup would be the best design of the
horizontal overflow as far as spacing, hole size and number of holes for
the drain and return, <as long as you can comfortably and practically
make it... the longer bos spreads surface over flow water
thinner/better>
and what would be the best design for the manifold.
<little to worry about here... work around any structures needed... but
essentially form a closed loop circuit fed by one supply tee for
improved distribution of flow>
Also, if the holes are about 2" from
the top of the tank, is this going to adequately "skim" the surface of
the water to provide maximum efficiency for the skimmer?
<depends... if the nutrient load is high... this will work fine. But for
hardcore reefs with good nutrient export, you will notice the benefit of
the horizontal overflow more so here>
Just though I'd ask plenty of
questions before I have my tank
drilled past the point of no return.
Also, are the bulkheads just open on the inside of tank since there
isn't a "pre-filter box" or do I need to in close the holes with some
sort of "box"?
<just strainers on the interior
bulkheads>
I love your site and am glad you guys are here to help
educate us.
Mahalo, Chris
<thanks kindly... best of luck/Life to
you. Anthony>
Closed loop manifold 9/24/04
Hi
Anthony. Can I build manifold as main return, or do I need to run it
separately? Thank you
<either way is fine my friend... some folks
power it by their return pump... others use a submersible pump inside
the tank to power it regardless of a sump pump or not :) kindly,
Anthony> Powerheads v. Closed Loop
This is in reference to
180 gallon reef tank with sump in the basement. Possibilities for moving
water include:
1.) Two pumps in the basement returning water to the
tank and running in series (or parallel?)
2.) One pump in the
basement returning water from the sump to the tank, and 4 powerheads in
the tank (maybe with a wavemaker)
3.) One pump in the basement
returning water from the sump to the tank, and a closed loop
(circulation only) with the pump sitting upstairs underneath the tank.
I don't see the advantage to option #1, i.e., having two pumps
downstairs pulling water from the sump and running in series. By "in
series" (or parallel?), I understand this to mean that if one pump goes
out the other one would still carry the job (pulling water through the
sump and the skimmer), albeit at reduced capacity. But why do it in
series?
<I prefer separate runs.>
If you're that concerned about
the pump failing, it would probably be more efficient and cheaper in the
long run just to have a spare pump.
<I am an aquarium maintenance
professional that works out of his home, so I see things from that
perspective. While for you and your own tank, you maybe perfectly happy
with a spare pump sitting unused in the house. I don't want any more
stuff than I already have to have around and I doubt any of my customers
would want one either. I try to consider every possible catastrophe and
design systems so that no matter what goes wrong they will continue to
function and not flood. It is a liability issue for me. Also, if a pump
were to fail, with two pumps, I can get to replacing the broken one when
I have time. If there is only one main pump, I would have to drop every
to fix it immediately.>
Option #3 seems better than #2.
<Much
better!>
I perceive the advantages to using a closed loop as follow:
Aesthetics (no unsightly equipment in tank). And less heat in the tank.
In favor of using powerhead, I saw the following idea to conceal
equipment in the tank: do not make the rear center overflow flush with
the back of the tank, rather set it forward 6" or so and hide the
equipment behind the overflow. This also has the benefit of flow coming
into the overflow from all four sides. Your thoughts on the above issue
would be most appreciated. Aryeh L. Benjamin
<While closed loop
circulation is very popular, I routinely hear of individuals with a
mobile invertebrate (anemones and snails are the most common) being
turned into chowder enough that I won't use one. I prefer to get my
10-20 times turnover through overflows and return pumps. -Steven Pro>
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