Hyposalinity, ORP and Raffles B/F... Crypt philosophically  – 11/03/09
I continue to really enjoy your site's articles and FAQs. I have some questions that I couldn't find answered in your FAQs or other sources.
<Okay>
As background, here's my setup: 220g FOWLR, T5 lighting, 35g refugium (reverse light cycle, growing Chaeto), 40g sump, 64g Rubbermaid overflow sump, Aqua-C EV240 skimmer with Mag 18 pump, 300lbs LR, RO/DI, auto-water top-off (aerated and heated to tank temp), ORP controller, Ozotech 300mg ozonizer and DI dryer. The display is completely covered by a glass top and wood canopy. The refugium, sumps, skimmer, etc. are in the basement under the display tank and are uncovered (with dehumidifier running). Circulation in the display is about 6000gph, including the overflow returns and four Koralia 4's.
As you may recall, I wrote to you before about my ich problem. I tried hyposalinity in the display, which worked for a short while, but the ich eventually returned a few months later, so I've removed all of the fish for treatment and the display is running fallow. I had an old 120g tank that I was able to set up with wet/dry filtration for treatment. I gave each fish a 5 minute freshwater bath with Methylene Blue before putting them into the treatment tank. The treatment tank is running at 1.008spg (tested with refractometer). The treatment tank and the display are both running at 82F. After 6 weeks, my plan is to give each fish another 5 minute freshwater bath with Methylene Blue before putting them back into the display. Is this sufficient treatment to rid the fish of ich while the display runs fallow?
<Mmmm, maybe. Cryptocaryon that is "very entrenched" can be below susceptibility of dips/baths and hyposalinity (embedded in the fishes' skins)>
Or should I be treating with copper for those fish that will tolerate it?
<I'd use a Quinine cpd.: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
It's been 4 weeks and no signs of anything resembling ich in the treatment tank, except... Just recently, I noticed a small white dot or miniature lump on the top edge of each side fin of my white faced tang (otherwise, the fins and body are clear, at least for now). Given the long term hyposalinity, is it possible that this is Lymphocystis and not ich?
<Sure>
Or is it possible that the ich is actually returning even in the hyposalinity environment?
<Possibly>
If it is Lymphocystis, would it be best to just leave the tang alone for now and then return him to the display with the others?
<I'd move all... maybe add a/some biological cleaner/s>
I worry that moving him to a separate QT might cause more stress (though his behavior seems fine and he competes well for food).
When returning the fish to the display (given that the treatment tank is running at 1.008 and the display is running at 1.025), should I acclimate the fish to the display water before the freshwater bath, or is that not necessary, since they're getting a big shock either way?
<I'd acclimate them... a thousandth or two per day>
Given the above treatment plan for the display tank and the fish (as modified by any recommendations you make), how likely is it that the ich will return?
<In all actuality/honesty, yes. Many, if not most hobbyist systems have resident Crypt populations... esp. ones that have evidence of previous outbreaks. Please don't let this "get you down"... Life is, after all, "a series of compromises"... There really are few instances of extreme "all okay" circumstances. Shoot for a balance and be vigilant, satisfied with your efforts>
More specifically, would you recommend that I get rid of my dwarf zebra lion and instead get some cleaner shrimp when I am ready to return my fish to the display?
<I'd risk other Cleaners... Gobiosoma/Elacatinus spp. perhaps>
I love my lion, but I really don't want to go through any more battles with ich.
When I had previously tried hyposalinity in the display, it seems that all of my pods perished. Is it possible that other critters in the rocks and sand would have died with hyposalinity as well?
<Yes>
Do I need to add new live rock in the display and/or fuge?
<Just a bit... a few pounds>
(As a side note, I added various snails to the display after the hyposalinity was over. Looks like the Nassarius snails have had babies -- and the fallow tank is giving them time to grow.)
<Ah, good>
Also, my ozonizer works great -- it pumps up the ORP to the high 300's (and occasionally just over 400) -- but when the ozonizer is offline, the ORP quickly drops to the low 200's. Would the rapidly falling ORP indicate that there is a problem that I should be trying to find, or could it just be due to the fact that my display is fully covered and doesn't get much oxygen exchange?
<Just high metabolite addition, metabolic activity...>
Because the ORP drops so fast, the ozonizer doesn't shut off for long before the controller senses the need to fire it up again. As a result, the skimmer doesn't get much of a chance to remove as much waste.
<There is that much less to remove with the addition of O3>
Would you recommend any adjustments in my setup?
<Mmm, maybe removing the glass top, using a screen or louver cover instead>
Lastly, I currently have three B/Fs -- a raffles, a double saddled and a Spotband. My favorite is the raffles. Do they do well in pairs or groups?
<Pairs>
If so, do they need to be added at the same time, or could I add more even though I already have one?
<Another can be added here>
Sean Patrick Whelan
<Bob Fenner>

Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Hi folks,
<Elsie.>
Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I think I see spots on the blue tang and the sailfin tang. So frustrating!
<Tis frustrating.>
Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or should I try hyposalinity?
Quick Cure?
<Do a Google search re Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source:
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185. Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.>
Thanks in advance
Elise
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08
Scott,
Thanks so much for your reply.
<Welcome.>
I have never heard of the stuff before.
<Many...most have not.>
I've been glued to my computer digesting all the FAQ's on the subject.
A couple of things I'm wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as opposed to quinine sulfate?
<They are completely different compounds.>
The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc.
<A pain, just one source.>
I will try calling some local vets.
<Some will know, others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too.
A quick explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.>
Will the stuff have any effect on biological filtration?
<Supposedly not, I do have my doubts, though have not quantified them.>
I read that person's post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change, dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks.
I am still combating ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each water change?
<Yes, prorated of course.>
Could get pricey, no?
<Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could, but it works!>
Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper.
<They do.>
Elise
<Scott V.>

Chloroquine Phosphate Source 10/28/08
Hi Crew,
<Matt.>
Thanks for all you do for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is very excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where this medication may be available for future reference, so I did a bit of googling (not sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the active ingredient in a medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least). Avlocor is an anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable without a prescription at the following link -
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so how much would an effective dose be?
<It should work out fine. 10 mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS keeping some on hand.>
Thanks for your hard work and commitment,
Matt.
<Welcome and thank you, Scott V.>
<BTW, thank you very much for sharing your finds. Scott V.>

Re: Chloroquine phosphate Source 10/29/08
Hi Scott,
<Hey there Matt.>
Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for a pack of 20, 250mg tablets.
<Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much here in the U.S.>
If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence (~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it.
<Tis cheap, for my area!>
Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK).
<Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.>
At 10mg/l recommended dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a 250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think?
<This could work, yes.>
I also asked about its use, in case there were any other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are?
<Doubtful, more like fillers and binders.>
How effective would you consider this as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo?
<Very effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.>
Thanks for your time,
Matt.
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Ich Treatment, SW, Tangs, Toby...   10/7/08 Crew, I recently purchased a 125 gallon tank from someone who was getting out of the hobby complete with fish live rock and a few inverts. <I see your pic... very nice> I currently also run a 180 gallon reef tank which has completely separate nets and equipment. The 125 had been up and running for about 3 weeks when 2 fish started showing signs of ich. Here is the stock list of the tank as it came. 150 lbs of live rock DSB- new when I set the tank back up, with slight seeding from the old Skunk Cleaner Shrimp Coral Banded Shrimp Misc Large Hermits and Huge Turbo Snails Misc Soft Corals (xenia, zoos) 2" Picasso Trigger <Mmm, will likely eat the Hermits, Snails, perhaps more in time> 2" Maroon Clown 2" Saddle Puffer 3" Hippo Tang 3" Yellow Tang 2.5" Powder Brown Tang After reading over the WWM archives, I have decided on the following plan of attack. (Please correct me on medications:-) 1. Setup quarantine tank with salinity, temp and ph that matches the display. 2. Catch all fish except for puffer and move to the quarantine tank (55 gallons). 4. Move puffer into 5 gallon tank heavily bubbled and dose with formalin for 30 minutes, <Mmm, may well be too long... Likely ten minutes will do all the good that can... I would definitely be in constant attendance, ready to move this fish...> transfer to separate 10 gallon for 6 week stay. <Hard to keep such small volumes stable....> 3. Dose OrganiCure to the 55 gallon tank, no carbon just filter floss filtration for 6 weeks, with frequent water changes and copper testing. <Mmmm, I'd rather go the quinine/Chloroquine treatment route with this mix of fish species...> 4. Return all inhabitants to the main display tank (- the yellow tang, maroon clown and hippo tang that I may sell off to make the quarantine period go smoother). My 180 has been a great success from all of the information that I have read and used off of your site. I included a picture to show it off. Thanks for your help, Tim <I do think I will finally stop putting off my minor "expose" re the use of Chloroquine phosphate... 10 mg/l... Please do read re this, and quickly order, start using... Much better... safer, less toxic than copper, formalin. Bob Fenner>

A bit of a problem.... Marine Ich 8/17/08
Hey crew, I have been a fan of your site for a while now. Diving into the saltwater scene when I was 13. Since then I have had my hills to climb but learned more than anyone can imagine in this hobby.
<Great>
Now 18, I'm running a healthy 60 gallon reef and loving every bit of it. Anyhow, recently I added a beautiful toadstool to my tank. It was from a mixed tank in my LFS display. A week after adding this coral I noticed my Royal Gramma has come down with ICH. Since the toadstool was my latest addition in over 4 months I assume it had the parasitic hitchhiker on the rock he came with.
<Possible, and why QTing everything wet is important.>
As you know it is near impossible to remove a basslet out of a reef without massive deconstruction. The Gramma is still eating but looking rough and I am worried the parasite will spread.
<Probably already has.>
Any suggestions as to what I should do?
<You basically have 2 choices, remove all fish from the tank, treat in a hospital tank, and allow the tank to run fallow for 6 to 8 weeks, or maintain the water quality very high in the main tank, feed well, and hope the fish are strong enough to resist the parasites. Be aware that any new additions will probably be infected too and may not be strong enough to survive.>
I appreciate your time,
Aaron
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate   7/22/08
To the Crew at WWM:
<Gene>
For many years you've helped fellow hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight I've been having for YEARS against ich.
<Please do>
Before I begin I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place (mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me, especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for about a week
<A very good practice>
and then begin hyposalinity therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or so.
Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system. In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT.
<Good spiel>
As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4 - 6 weeks.
Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55 gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG 1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a different route.
The following is what I did next.
On 5/19 I began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose. This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28 and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5.
On July 8th. all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July 22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!!
At this point I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change. (Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms).
The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor crabs.
Gene
<Thank you for sharing your information and passion Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>

Kordon Ich Attack 3/25/08
Hi team,
<Hello John.>
Just thought I would give you my experience with the Kordon Ich Attack herbal remedy as there is very little on your web site.
<Little tidbits here and there, not much.>
This is no criticism as all that I know about marine fish keeping I have learned from your site plus a couple of books so many thanks for all the invaluable information contained on the web site.
<Welcome, thank you for the kind words.>
I have a 100 gallon (UK) tank with a refugium system using Chaetomorpha and miracle mud. I also use a protein skimmer (Deltec MCE600). There is loads of live rock and a fairly small bio load comprising of 3 Blue Chromis, 2 Ocellaris Clowns, 1 Black Cap Basslet, 1 Flame Angel fish, 1 Kole Tang, 1 Long Nose Hawkfish, 1 Algae Blenny (salarias fasciatus), 2 Purple Firefish and 1 cleaner wrasse (who eats like a pig, and who I have had for over a year. I did feel guilty about buying one after reading your web site but he is a real character and services the other fish and is very healthy).
<Great, sounds like a very nice setup.>
I had my first ever outbreak of marine itch after purchasing a butterfly fish which unfortunately died within a couple of weeks and who I think was the carrier (only my second death!).
<Too bad, sorry to hear this.>
I then noticed the dreaded white spots on the Kole Tang, the Black Cap Basslet and one of the Clowns. All other fish appeared unaffected. I could not set up a quarantine tank and keep an eye on water quality due to work commitments and being away from home several nights a week. Plus it would almost be impossible to catch the offending fish with all the live rock I have in the tank. I know this is not the way to go but I didn't have much choice.
<Ideally we would all have and use quarantine tanks, it does not always work that way.>
I spoke to my LFS who recommended a UV sterilizer which they said would help but wouldn't cure which concurs with the information on your web site.
<Yes.>
I then did some more research and came across the Kordon's herbal remedy. I sent away for around 3 weeks worth of remedy and started treatment in conjunction with the sterilizer. Initially the spots disappeared only to return after a few days, obviously following
the typical cycle of these critters. However it only seemed to affect the Kole Tang and the Black cap basslet the second time around, all
other fish remained unaffected and their behavior was as normal, I don't know why.
<These fish may have been weaker than the others from the first round, or the Ich never really subsided.>
All fish were still eating well during this period. The spots also seemed to be less and less as the treatment continued. All fish have now been spot free for around 12 days so I can only assume that the combination of UV sterilizer and the herbal remedy has done the
trick.
<That is good to hear.>
It may be that I haven't had an epidemic of marine Ich and the above has nipped it in the bud and I may have been lucky but this stuff does seem to work. It's worth a try but I think you do need to continue treatment for quite a while. All my corals have been unaffected by the last 3 weeks treatment. I did stop skimming during this time. Thought this may be useful information to other enthusiasts in the same position.
Kind regards
John Dickinson
<This is a product that one hears many differing opinions on from time to time and made by a great company. Thank you for sharing your success story with everybody! Scott V.>

Crypt the dragon  10/6/05
Bob,
<Yes?>
I have sent many e-mails over the last couple of weeks concerning my battle with Crypt.  With your help, Crypt the dragon met his demise and a biological disaster in the hospital tank has been avoided.
The HT finally cycled after multiple water changes using an established 29 gal tank even while consistently replacing the Coppersafe removed by the water changes.
It surprised me that I was able to get the HT tank to cycle while treating with Coppersafe.
<Happens... not always>
The only thing I can attribute this to is the use of water from my established tank to do the water changes.
<Yes, the best source>
Even with this, I expected to battle the ammonia and nitrite throughout the entire quarantine process due to the copper treatment. Believe me I'm not complaining.  I was doing water changes in my sleep. The copper treatments end today in the HT and I will begin the process of water changes to remove the remaining copper.  The fish will be back in the main tank in about 10 days.
Again, I cannot tell you enough how I appreciate your help and WWM.
Mark
<Congratulations on your success. Bob Fenner>

To Mark and Kathy/ ich in a 55 qt - Kim's Very Hard-won Advice
Hi crew,
I just read the inquiries from Mark and Kathy about their struggles with ich. Boy did this sound familiar! I wanted to write in hopes that they would read this. I wanted to tell them not to get frustrated, this next month will be HELL!
<Yikes! Is this George B. Jr.? Watch out for terrorists! They're terrifying!>
After I lost half of my fish the first week and a half with the Quick Cure and doing 10 to 20 % water changes I changed to CopperSafe...
<Yay!>
...and changed 50% of the water [also had a 55 gallon qt] everyday for a month. I also had to pull one of the fish into another tank temporarily to treat for a secondary bacterial infection. Well I am done, I will hopefully be putting my fish back in the main tank this weekend. My Raccoon's skin has healed beautifully and I am happy to have saved the 3 fish I have left, they are doing good. It was worth the early morning water changes and the 200 gallons of salt I went through every week to save them!! So I guess I wanted to tell them to hang in there, don't give up and read this website!!! I would have lost ALL my fish had it not been for the wonderful help and info on this site!!
Have a great day!
Kim
<Thank you for your input. Bob Fenner> 

Fish with Ich in a Hospital Tank.....Hypo, Formalin, or Copper? (6-13-05)
Hi all, I have been speed reading through much of this site since last evening, trying to make a decision on how to treat my pygmy angel and clown fish for ich.  
<Hi there, Leslie here representing all this morning. Sorry to hear about your fish.>
I noticed 2-4 spots on each fish last night that were not visible  to me as early as that same morning.  I am aware that all treatments have their own pros and cons, but am mainly concerned with the angel, knowing she  would not tolerate full doses of copper, and many opinions on this site lean towards hypo not being a good cure. I have a stack of reference books, and a bugged out brain from info overload.  Please advise this new aquarist on the best way to proceed.
<Sure, I am a fan of freshwater dips followed by hyposalinity. I have had very good luck with these methods. The fish can go directly from the FW dip into the hyposalinity. The FW dip water must be dechlorinated, and adjusted to the pH and temp of the water the fish are currently in. Recommended treatment for FW dips are usually 7 to 15 min and Scott Michael recommends up to 30 min. Keep in mind here you must remain with the fish for the duration of the dip and any signs of distress….. gasping or jumping at the surface, they should be returned to the main or quarantine tank and slowly acclimated over several hours to the hyposalinity.  Some increased gilling is normal. Occasionally a fish will lay over on it’s side. Should this happen try gently stimulating it, most often they will respond to gentle stimulation, by returning to a normal orientation in the water and the dip can be continued. If they do not come around the dip needs to be terminated and they need to be returned to their tank. Formalin is harsh as well as toxic to the environment and a known carcinogen. I never use it as a first line treatment. The other thing that is nice about hyposalinity is that it can be used in conjunction with meds should you need to.>
I have a
-10 gallon hospital tank (fish are in) <Perfect>
-running whisper filter with poly instead of carbon (good choice??)
<Yes, fine, but will need to be removed if you decide to go with meds vs. hyposalinity.>
-attached skimmer for water turnover, might this help keep parameters in  check or am I dreaming?
<Nope……it should help. If you opt for the FW dip and hyposalinity then a few pieces of live rock will do wonders for the water quality. Anything that increases turnover and oxygenation is beneficial. The skimmer will of course help with removal of organic waste which should in turn help the water quality.>
Should I add Selcon or Garlic Extreme etc. to the food/water to increase  immunity?
<I would be careful with any additives that could diminish water quality. I would opt for Beta Glucan. There is quite a bit of evidence out now about it’s the immune stimulating effects.  It can be obtained from any health food store. Here is some information on Beta Glucan….
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/beta_glucan_biological_defense_modulator.html . They recommend administration by gut loading live brine shrimp. You could also dissolve some of it in RO or DI water, soak some flakes or Nori, and then feed that. Another method, if you have access to a needle and syringe, would be to again dissolve it in some water and inject it into Mysis. A bit tedious and requires a steady hand and good eyesight but does work well especially for my captive bred seahorses who prefer Mysis to live brine believe it or not☺.>
I should also mention all LFS stores in my area are closed on Monday so I most likely will be ordering meds on line and next day shipping them.
<If you opt for the FW dip followed by hyposalinity you can start immediately and do not have to wait for meds to be shipped.>
Thanks a bunch in advance. I do not want to lose any fish here.....forever grateful for all you do!
<Your most welcome! Best of luck with your fish, Leslie>

Re: Fish in Hospital Tank with Ich.....Hypo, formalin or copper? Continued (6-13-05)
Hi Leslie, thank-you so much for your reply.
<Your very welcome Kelly.>
I am feeling less panicked already!!
<Glad I could help dispel some of the panic. I can certainly relate and I have never found it to be very helpful ;).>
Well there are now 3 fish in QT, probably soon to be 5 as other my other tank is also contaminated.
<Oh bummer, I am so sorry to hear that.>
As this point I am thinking of using one tank to house most of my rock and all inverts while using the smaller 16 gallon to treat all 5 fish with hypo and dips.
<That sounds like a plan. The bigger tank would be a better option since there are 3 additional fish. Be sure to do the dips in a separate container and do not add any of the dip water back into the tank that will be housing the fish. Since you are not adding meds daily water changes would be a good idea. In addition to keeping up the water quality it will help to dilute the parasite load.>
Thanks for the excellent advice on administering garlic to shrimp.  
I don’t think you have to go to the trouble of gut loading the shrimp with the garlic. I would vote for making life simpler and just soaking their food in the Garlic Extreme. I really do think the Beta Glucan is a better immune stimulant and would advise you go with that instead of the garlic.>
I did go ahead and order some Garlic Extreme and Selcon to supplement feedings.  Also I ordered Methylene Blue and Formalin 3.  I was thinking of using the Methylene with FW dips and the Formalin to sanitize equipment since I have more than one tank.  
<The Meth Blue is not necessary and perhaps overkill. It is typically used for nitrite and ammonia toxicity. The FW dip and hyposalinity should be just fine. More is not necessarily better when it comes to meds and treatments. As for the formalin, as I mentioned in my previous response it is toxic, a carcinogen, and disposal of it would not be considered environmentally friendly. It would be better not to use it at all if you can avoid it.  You can sterilize you equipment easily by soaking or even running it with a diluted mixture of bleach and water for a few days. Rinse it well when done and then soak or run the equipment in freshwater with some dechlorinator for a few days. Rinse again and set it outside to dry in the sun for another couple of days.>
Again, thank you for any thoughts or advice on my plan.  Hoping hypo works!! ~Kelly
<You're most welcome! It should work well if done correctly. Be sure to use a refractometer when measuring the specific gravity for your hyposaline solution. Any other method is not reliable enough for this extreme drop in specific gravity. It is very important to have an accurate measurement. If the specific gravity is to low the fish will not tolerate it for the duration of the treatment and if it’s to high the treatment will not be effective. You want to be sure your water is 1.008 to 1.010 and the treatment is usually continued for at least 4 weeks. Best of luck with your fishes, Leslie.>

Have 2 fish in hospital tank.....hypo/formalin/copper?
Hi all, I have been speed reading through much of this site since last evening, trying to make a decision on how to treat my pygmy angel and clownfish for ich.  I noticed 2-4 spots on each fish last night that were not visible  to me as early as that same morning.  I am aware that all treatments have  their own pros and cons, but am mainly concerned with the angel, knowing she  would not tolerate full doses of copper, and many opinions on this site lean towards hypo not being a good cure.  
<Are you sure this is ich/crypt? Have you tried the biological cleaner route?>
I have a stack of reference books, and a bugged out brain from info overload.  Please advise this new aquarist on the best way to  proceed.
-10 gallon hospital tank (fish are in)
-running whisper filter with poly instead of carbon (good choice??)
<Yes... unless you're adding chemical treatments>
-attached skimmer for water turnover, might this help keep parameters in check or am I dreaming?
<Will, but will remove...>
-should I add Selcon or Garlic Extreme etc. to the food/water to increase immunity?
<You can>
I should also mention all LFS stores in my area are closed on Monday so I most likely will be ordering meds on line and next day shipping them.
Thanks a bunch in advance, I do not want to lose any fish here..... forever grateful for all you do!
<I'd return the fishes to the main tank, read over the use of cleaners for now. Bob Fenner>

Taking The War To Ich!
Hi Bob,
<Scott F. in today!>
This is Gulnar (the wife) reading ich FAQs on your website and trying to come up with a plan for tomorrow. Yes, we sure had some magic dynamic going for 14 years. Sorry we pushed it over the edge, and ironically on the eve of getting a 120 gal. Needless to say, we returned the LN Butterfly the next morning (over a week ago) but the damage was done.  I noticed the spots on the Sailfin Tang this morning, and most of the fish did not eat today, so assume all the fish have ich. This is our first encounter with ich, and I would love to give it my best shot to save our fish which we've had for years and are obviously very attached to. (committed to QT from now on)
<A battle that you can definitely win with some quick and decisive action! Glad that you are committed to quarantine for the future! You won't regret embracing this process!>
Michael has started raising the temperature of the tank today. I will do a water change and start reducing the sg gently tomorrow.
I am getting ready to set up 1 (maybe 2, to spread the load) 10 gal. hospital tank/s with main tank water to get fish out (no small task, as we have 100-150 lbs of live rock - there is no other bio filter media for the last 7 years or so).
<You could put sponge filter in the display tank for several days in the hope of "colonizing" the sponge with beneficial bacteria for filtration in your treatment tank. However, there is a very good possibility that some medications can wipe out significant populations of the bacteria. Frequent water changes are a very safe bet in the "hospital" tank; just make sure that medications are replenished to maintain a proper therapeutic dose.>
I am not very savvy about all this, as I have pretty much sat on the side lines until recently.
<Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on things, however!>
But I do not want to give up on the fish, so any help is most appreciated.
<That's why we're here!>
I see that the advise is to get all the fish out of the tank and let it go fallow for over a month.
<I am a huge proponent of this technique. It has a very high success rate at eradicating ich from the display tank>
Am I right in assuming copper cannot be administered to the main tank because it would kill the live rock/bio-filter/beneficial bacteria?.
<It will definitely kill many inverts, some microfauna, and may actually be "absorbed" by the rock and sand, becoming bound up and effectively reducing the therapeutic benefits of the medication. It is always recommended to treat in a dedicated "hospital" tank with a bare bottom and inert decor, such as PVC sections, etc.>
IF THAT IS SO, some specific questions:
1. Is 10 gal hospital/QT tank big enough for 6 fish for 1 month?
<Really depends on the size and types of the fishes. Frankly, a Sailfin Tang would not do well in such a small tank. I'd either spread out the population over several tanks or other containers (plastic trash cans and the like), or try to find a (used) tank of a larger size, like 40-50 gallons. Even in a treatment tank, a larger tank affords greater environmental stability.>
2. Since not established, would 2 gal ( or more?) water change everyday keep ammonia, nitrite, nitrate at acceptable levels?  (Apologize for ignorance, will commit to self-education after crisis)
<Please, no apologies! You're doing great! Yes, water changes done regularly will be a definite aid in keeping the water quality up. Just be sure to regularly test for copper concentration (if you elect to use Copper Sulphate as a treatment) to make sure that you are maintaining a proper therapeutic dose.>
3. Please advise if copper is the way to go in the QT tank? If so, which brand/type and a source for overnight delivery, if LFS does not carry.
<Copper is good stuff if you follow the manufacturer's directions carefully and test regularly. I like Mardel CopperSafe or Cupramine by Sea Chem. Both of which can be ordered from places like Drs. Foster & Smith, etc. However, there are some fishes (particularly Centropyge angels, Puffers and many Tangs) which do not do well with copper over the long term. I have never encountered difficulties with copper, but that doesn't mean that it's foolproof, of course! If you are concerned about Copper, perhaps a Formalin-based product would be a better choice for you.>
(Hope directions are idiot-proof).
<They are pretty good! Just remember to get a copper test kit if you go the Copper sulphate route>
4. Is FasTest for copper a good one? Is this for chelated or "free" or both?
<I believe that this test is only for "free" copper. Do check the Aquarium Systems (manufacturer) web site.>
Your preference?
<I like the SeaChem Copper test kit, but Fastest are excellent, and I use them, too>
5. Are "Dip test Strips" any good to keep an eye on the QT? 5-in-1 Quick Dip strips? Ammonia Alert?
<As long as you don't need a real high degree of accuracy, I suppose that these tests would work. I'd rather have the Fastest or SeaTest kits, though>
6. Additionally, would fresh water dips also help? How often?
<They can be of some help; however, freshwater dips alone are not a cure, IMO. They can help supplement other treatment techniques. Remember, they do cause some stress for the fish, which could be potentially problematic to a sick fish. If you are not confident with FW dips, I'd consider the potential "down side" before attempting. All in all, I find them to be useful if done correctly.>
Sorry for the long message.
<No need to apologize!>
Thanks for your help. Look forward to your response. Please reply to both of us. Thanks again. Gulnar
<Hang in there, guys! You can do it! Regards, Scott F.>

Taking The War To Ich- The Battle Is Joined! 
Hi Scott,
<Hello again!>
Thanks for your response. I'm so very grateful for your point-by-point response to my long email. Thanks for all your efforts and all this good information.
<Glad to be of service...that's what WWM is all about!>
I have been at your website FAQs every minute I get and into the night, essentially taking a crash course, and am in info-overload, and experiencing some confusion, (To stay with Kick-Ich or go QT).
<it is a bit overwhelming...Sometimes it is okay to just stop and take a deep breath before proceeding...>
As I have not yet taken decisive action, in the 3 days that have gone by, we started first dose of Kick-Ich Thurs. AM (says it's reef safe), though I know you don't agree.
<I guess my biggest concern about so-called "reef-safe medications" is that I am curious how something can target just the Cryptocaryon parasite without doing any collateral damage to physiologically analogous creatures in the tank. That's what worries me about the stuff...I just don't believe in using any "medications" in the display. Nonetheless, I respect and understand your decision to take action...I cannot fault you at all!>
We needed to do something, as it was day 3, thought to give the fish some relief, and the QT is not set up yet, as we have to prepare to tear the LR down to remove the fish to the QT, filter still to arrive, etc. 
<Yep...Ya gotta lay the groundwork...> 
Now we're Preparing to set up a QT this Saturday, but we have no bio-filter. There are 6 fish to be treated, (all eating at the moment). The 5-6" Sailfin Tang, which is covered the worst;
the 4" Regal Angel, seems covered not as bad but eyes are cloudy;
4" Square-Backed Anthias, Flame Angel and Blue Devil damsel don't look as bad; and can't tell if the Sailfin (I think) Algae Blenny has ich spots or not. 
<Best to assume that all fishes in a "hot" tank are ill. You may not need to treat them, but they should be observed carefully in isolation nonetheless.>
All have to be accommodated in 55 gal QT, as I will already be stretched keeping up with one QT. I am very anxious about my ability to pull this off without a biofilter. The only filter we have in the ich-ridden 55 gal display tank is the LR, which is no good for treatment tank. 
<Correct. Your best allies will be (IMO) water changes and a good sponge filter.>
QT/Hospital tank elements- your thought?:
- 55 gal tank (following your advice, and coming to my senses) 
- Bio-Wheel 330 with mechanical filtration, (I don't see a sponge filter in Drs F&S catalog)
<Well, the BioWheel will colonize some bacteria as it matures. Dr. Foster and Smith do have sponge filters...Do check their website, too.>
- Visi-Therm Submersible 300W heater - will set to maintain at 82 F day and night. Is that OK?
<Elevated temperatures are helpful to speed up the life cycle of the causative protozoa, but do make sure that the tank is well aerated/filtered, as the warmer water holds less dissolved oxygen.>
- PVC fittings - various sizes
<Good. Inert "decor" is a great idea and won't interfere with medication.>
- 35-40 gals of water from display tank (nitrates may be 20-40, typically are)- 15-20 gals new water, temp and sg matched to display tank
<Sounds great!>
- tubing to siphon bottom of QT for daily water change
<I'm glad that you are doing that. Frequent water changes will help as the biofilter matures in the QT.>
- Ammonia stick-on alert Am I forgetting anything?
<Nope...Sounds good>
Medication at the ready - your thought?:
-Formalin, (Aquarium Products) - 16 oz. (I don't think copper is an option, having a flame angel and SFin tang. Do you agree?
<Although I am a big fan of copper, and have used it for tangs and dwarf angels, I would not recommend it because of the potential "collateral damage" it can cause for these fishes. I agree with your decision to use a formalin-based product.>
-Kent Detox (Is this OK to use in case of an ammonia spike?)
<I have not used this product, but I'm wondering how it will interact with your medication. Formalin will have a negative effect on the biofilter. Personally, I'd arm myself with a "bacteria in a bottle" product (like Cycle, etc.) and dose it regularly in the hopes of keeping up with the tank's needs.>
-Methylene Blue (getting it, but probably won't use, considering down-side risk you mention)
<Actually, not too much down side, IMO. However, it is of no real effect with Cryptocaryon...>
-Coppersafe or Cupramine - get later as back up
<Hopefully, you won't need a "second round" of meds, but both are excellent products if used as directed and copper concentration is regularly measured.>
Am I forgetting anything?
<Nope. You seem to have it wired!>
Test kits
FasTest Multi kit +refills - Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH
FasTest Copper - get, if needed 
Am I forgetting anything?
<Again- sounds good!>
Questions - Sorry for the number of Qs:
1. We saved 20 gal from the water change yesterday (Thurs. morning), and is currently being brought up to 80 F, no filter yet. Will that still be good for this weekend to start the 55 gal treatment tank? The display tank is also a 55 gal. (FOWLR).
<I think it will be fine for this purpose.>
2. Will it be OK to do another water change within 2 days (Sat) to get another 15 -20 gals to start the treatment tank?
<I'd wait a little longer- like 3-4 days, and keep up that interval during treatment, or as warranted.>
3. I'm afraid of the FW dip, and you mentioned the stress may be too much for the 2 that are the most sick. Also, I'm ignorant about PH and how to raise or lower it in the QT and FW dip, and may not have time to learn that. Any ready answer will help greatly.
<The dip process is really not that scary, but if you are not comfortable with the process, I don't really see a downside to skipping it. Better to use this technique prior to quarantining newly-received fishes.>
4. What is the down side of NOT doing the FW/M.Blue dip?
<Really not much, IMO. In theory, it can help remove or kill some of the Cryptocaryon protozoa that are on the fishes' bodies. However, its effectiveness as a primary theory is questionable. I've seen some research which indicates that the necessary duration to effect significant eradication of the protozoa would cause the fish to expire in the process...Not a good trade off, if you ask me!>
5. When should I start using Formalin immediately, as have read reluctance to use meds, but SF Tang is fully covered in fine white spots, and the regal angel's eyes are cloudy (repeating myself, sorry)
<I'd start right away, as the sooner you start, the sooner you can discontinue the dosing. Follow manufacturer's directions to the letter regarding dosage and duration.>
6. Is Formalin as effective as copper?
<It is, if used properly>
Downside of Formalin?
<It can disrupt filtration, and like all medications, can be deadly if dosed improperly.>
How can I verify that I am maintaining the Formalin levels prescribed? i.e. no test kit
<Follow manufacturer's directions without deviation!>
7. You mention that you have not encountered any difficulties with copper. Are you referring to its use with Flame Angel or Sailfin Tang?
<With both. The real problem with tangs and copper is that the copper is thought to be harmful to the digestive fauna that these fishes harbor in their intestinal tract. If these fauna are killed, the fish may not be able to properly digest it's food, leading to further problems. Granted, this is usually caused by long-term exposure to copper (several weeks...Usually longer than you need to effect a cure, BTW), but it warrants consideration. As far as Centropyge Angels- they are categorically sensitive to copper, with a few exceptions. I have used copper many times on both fishes without incident, but that does not mean that I recommend it to everyone. The risk is there.>
8. How long/days has Formalin to be used? Haven't got it yet, so don't know the directions. Do you know of its success rate?
<Depends on the manufacturer's recommendations and concentration. As far as success- it can be very successful, if used as directed.>
9. Assume I should add Formalin (1 ml to 18 gals) to new water on alternate days as prescribed, to maintain dosage. 
<Good idea. Do know exactly how much water is in the tank, so you can accurately gauge requirements>
10. Will I need to do a 5%, 10% (6 gal) or 20% (12 gal) water change every day?
<I'd go for every three or four days, as outlined above.>
11. With daily water changes, will there be need for make-up water, as bound to be evaporation. So have to medicate make-up water with Formalin as well?
<I would. You need to maintain a proper therapeutic dose>
12. With the QT daily tests, will I need a high degree of accuracy? Meaning, will tests strips be accurate enough?
<I think that the inexpensive strips will do the job.>
13. Are Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate Tests to be done once or twice a day?
<Once a day is plenty. eventually, every other day will do.>
14. Any other daily tests to be done for the QT?
<Well, I'd mainly be concerned about the parameters outlined above>
Speaking of tests, I have not done any tests this week, since noticing the ich. Nitrates typically are 20-40. Will this have adverse effect on the success of the treatment?
<Not to my knowledge.>
15. Just curious, if we had a sponge in display sump ready for QT, once you start adding copper or Formalin, would the bio-filter die totally? If so, is there a benefit in having a "dirty" ready sponge with this type of medication?
<There would be some potential "die off" of beneficial bacteria with formalin, but an established sponge gives you a "jump start". Do consider replenishing with a product like Cycle, as outlined above.>
16. Lastly, yesterday was day 3 after we noticed the ich, but the spots have not disappeared or diminished. I read that after 8-24 hours of the feeding stage, then they drop to bottom, but that is not my experience. Your thoughts?
<Hard to be sure, but I suspect that they will soon.>
Anxiously waiting for your quick response. Thanks very much for your time and attention.
Gratefully, Gulnar
<A pleasure, Gulnar. Take it slow and steady- be confident, and you'll win this war! Regards, Scott F.>

Don't Dip for Ich
   Hi, My 30 gallon reef tank is having an outbreak of ick. I'm pretty sure that my yellow tang brought it home. I've read some info on how to get rid of ick. I know how to do the freshwater dip. I have a 10 gallon tank set up as a quarantine tank. I'm worried that if I move all of my fish to the 10 gallon tank that it won't be big enough. I have 2 scooter blennies, 2 Percula clowns, 1 algae blenny, 1 yellow tang, 1 engineer goby, all of which are pretty small. Do you think that it's big enough to hold so many fish? I've read that you have to keep the tank empty for about 4 weeks to get rid of the ick that's in the tank? Is that true? Is there anything I can do to speed this process up? Any help would be really appreciated.
>>>Hello Heather,
It's too late to quarantine. The time to quarantine is BEFORE you introduce the parasite into your system. Now, you have C. irritans running amuck in your system, and your job is unfortunately much harder. Forget about freshwater dips. C. irritans is an obligate protozoan with a life cycle (theront, Protomont, tomont and Trophont stages) that prevents you from treating it by a simple dip of any kind. At this point, you MUST remove all fish from you system and let it stand for at least 4 to 5 weeks in this state. No fish. Your fish must be treated with either hyposalinity (1.009) for 3 weeks in a hospital tank, or a commercial medication can be used such as "Cupramine", again in a hospital tank. Yes, the 10 gallon is too small for this purpose. I would invest in at least one more for treating your fish.  
  Please read the following article, all five parts in their entirety.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm
This will give you a good handle on this pathogen, and hopefully you will avoid this problem in the future by quarantining your fish before introducing them into your display. If you have any further questions after reading the article, please feel free to drop me another line.
By the way, a 30 gallon tank is MUCH too small to keep a yellow tang (or any tang) for very long. These fish grow fast, get rather large, and are VERY active. 75 gallons is the minimum tank size for a yellow tang - long term.
Jim<<< Spots That Won't Go Away!
Hi, <How goes it, Michael here>
My level of copper in my tank is .50 ppm. Is that enough to treat marine ich?
<Too high, I'm afraid.  I would lower it with water changes or carbon to .25 ppm>
The test kit I have only goes up to >or = to 1 ppm. Please respond quickly and thanks for the info!! <No problem, good luck.  Make sure to monitor your water quality while dosing.  M. Maddox>
My level has been that high for weeks and the 2 spots on the tang and the 4 on the blue damsel are not going away. Why is that? Maybe the spots on the damsel are scales? They kind of stick up
Thanks
thanks
<Scott F. following up. Mike was right on the mark. Maintain proper copper levels for the manufacturer's recommended duration. As far as the spots are concerned, you might be dealing with something that copper is not effective at treating. Rather than continuous exposure to copper, I'd probably discontinue using it for a while. Observe the fish carefully for a few days "post-copper"...See if they are improving, declining, or maintaining their current status. Could very well be some sort of scale distortion or other non-infectious condition on the fish. Be alert...Regards, Scott F.>

Formalin with Sensitive Fishes
Hello WetWeb crew person who takes this question    : )
<Hello! Ryan with your question today>
     I’ve made it a habit to peruse this most awesome website almost everyday as new challenges arise in my marine animal keeping odyssey. <Phenomenal thing to say!> Thank
you all for your much needed knowledge, time and caring for our piscine critters and their sometimes bewildered owners. <Sometimes?  Just joshing>
     I am seeking advise on treating a pretty sensitive flasher wrasse (not sure if P. carpenteri or p. filamentosus) for a rather persistent case of crypt..  He is in a 15 gallon bare bottomed, PVC pipe quarantine tank along with 5 Stonogobiops gobies.  PH  has remained at 8.0.
    I tried a fresh-water dip on the wrasse with adjusted ph to 8.0  and temp around 78f, and the wrasse went stiff and flared, lost color and dropped to the bottom and lay there within 5 seconds. He didn’t move when I scooped him out and put him back in the quarantine where he spent twenty
four hours breathing heavy and lying in a corner before he recovered. <Doesn't sound too promising>  In
fact, I believe I was more out stressed by how he reacted.  Am not inclined to do that again. <And likely not necessary, if the proper medications are added to the quarantine setup.>
     Decided to treat with Kordon Formalin-3 because it seemed this was the better choice for a sensitive fish. <Yes, I was about to suggest it> The biological filter crashed after
first treatment. <Predictably> Have been dosing according to directions on bottle for 7
days at the 10ppm.  Temp. is at 80f.  Because of the filter crash I have been doing 30-50% water changes a day while siphoning bottom, and dosing new change water only. <In QT, 30% daily water changes are almost mandatory!  In a perfect world, you shouldn't rely on the bacterial filter in this scenario> Also am adding Seachem Prime to help protect the fishes
from the unfortunately present ammonia and high nitrites. <OK> Throughout this, so far, 7day ordeal, the wrasse and gobies having been eating (feeding sparingly) with a ravenous appetite.
    On 7th day (AAAAAAARGH!, my back is killing me), about 3 new Ich spots appeared on the wrasse’s dorsal fin. <It's time for copper>
     My questions come from total lack of experience in treating marine fish....would you recommend I stay with the Formalin-3 at double the recent dose to 20ppm (which is what I've begun to do as I wait for a response)? and observe if it was simply that the dose was simply not strong enough? Or do you recommend using the heavier duty formalin (staying with the same type of chemical) for ponds from a company like Aquarium Products instead (I have to order off the internet)?  Or  go on to Coppersafe which I worry will maybe pound the wrasse and gobies more than the formalin.  Is switching medications  way too detrimental to the fishes health? <Run carbon, and in two days with water changes, start copper treatment.  Buy a copper test, you'll need it to get the treatment levels correct.>
     I am trying to be as conscientious a caretaker as possible and absolutely appreciate the time taken by you to consider and answer my questions.
<Yes, and overcoming ICH is the nastiest business in the hobby!  Be patient, you're on your way to curing this ailment!  Feel free to write back if the copper doesn't do the trick.  Cheers, Ryan> Thank you so much, once again,  Esmeralda

Treating Sick Fish In The Display Tank Is A Better Way?
Hey guys,
<Scott F here today>
Bob and Tony have some great books and you have a great website and I agree 100% that a QT tank is essential to having a successful reef tank, but the advice you give about needing a QT tank for a fish-only-tank (FOT) is ridiculous.
<Really? Ask the next aquarist that you meet from The Shedd Aquarium, Waikiki Aquarium, The National Aquarium, etc. if they feel that it's "ridiculous" to quarantine fishes in their fish only systems...I think that they will tell you otherwise. Quarantine is a standard procedure at all public aquariums, and should be part of every hobbyist's set of procedures. In my humble opinion, it's just something that you do, like changing water, etc. All part of the "price" of this hobby.>
If you have a FOT and it suffers an ick outbreak YOU TREAT THE WHOLE SYSTEM! Why, because all the fish have ick and the tank has ick.  I read on your website a guy with a 90 gallon tank with 6 fish and you told him to pull all the fish which were probably big in QT tanks and let the entire 90-gallon system go fallow.
<That was probably me. I still believe in that technique. Is it hard- yes! Is it disruptive? Sure! But it works. The "easy" way is NOT always the best way!>
This advice borders on criminally insane!  
<Frankly, your point of view on this matter borders on criminally ignorant.>
I can see this poor guy who probably works a 40+ hour week, has a wife and kids and now spending precious time and money running around setting up multiple QT tanks all over his house (he would probably need at least 2-20 gallon tanks) and siphoning them daily, etc.. for the next month for no logical reason.
<Gee...I'm no different than anyone else: I work a 40 plus hour week, have a "significant other", two dogs, a mortgage payment, assist on WWM, and I still treat my sick fishes in this manner. Being "busy" is no excuse for not giving our animals the best possible care, as I am sure you are aware. The fish didn't choose us...We chose them. This is where I am coming from. Of course, I believe in quarantine of all new arrivals prior to placing them in my tanks, which I suppose is also a waste of time by your standards. I mean, it might entail buying an extra heater, extra tank, and another couple of minutes a day. Yep- just throw your new fish right in the tank, it's quicker, right? And don't bother feeding them, because there must be enough natural food in the tank to sustain them, and if you feed, you might have to change water once in a while...C'mon. Think about it for a bit.>
By using your advice, he stands a much higher chance of losing the fish!
All he needed to do was treat his FOT with Copper and after 30 days start doing heavier water changes to remove the Copper.
<Hmm... what if you are treating fishes such as Centropyge angels, some tangs, and other species sensitive to copper? Do you just net them out and leave everyone else in the display while you "nuke" it with copper or Formalin? Oh, wait, that takes too much time, right? Another major concern I have with this "treat in the display" philosophy is that it encourages hobbyists to look to so-called "reef safe remedies" and other approaches of questionable value.>
You argue that the copper ruins the gravel, dead rock, live rock (for a FOT) and decorations by absorbing the Copper.
<Yes, it can...But by the same token, it is much more difficult to maintain a proper therapeutic copper level in a tank filled with rock and sand. And, as you know, it is very important to maintain a proper level of copper to assure an effective treatment.>
I agree, ahhhhh, SO WHAT!  Just don't ever use any of it in a reef tank anytime in the near future or better yet ever.
<And no one EVER switches over to reef tanks, right? Why develop these habits when you won't be able to use them in a reef or invert system...?>
My mother says keep it simple stupid and in this case you are making this "hobby" very difficult for a lot of people with advice like this.
< I agree with keeping things simple. And, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on this, but I respectfully disagree. Steps such as "fallowing" a tank and quarantine ARE easier. And, quite frankly- no one ever said that the husbandry of animals captured from the most stable environment on earth and subjected to a variety of hardships from the reef to your store is easy. The hobby requires effort, observation, and research. When we render advice on WWM, it is from our experience; what works for us. You often see us state things like "..This is what I would do" or "...In my opinion.." All advice should be taken with  a grain of salt. What we are trying to do at WWM is provide hobbyists with objective (well, usually!) advice that helps them to develop conscientious husbandry techniques. That's our mission, and I will continue to render the best advice that I can based on my experience- what I know will work for the largest number of people. To give our readers anything less would be an insult, and a profound disservice to the hobby and animals that we all love.
Sorry, I really do love your website, but this was just horrible advice.  I feel bad for this poor guy. Nathan
<Nathan, I don't like to get into sparring matches with our readers, and I apologize in advance if I am being disrespectful! However, you need to be a bit more open-minded here. I'm sure that you are a talented and compassionate hobbyist, and it's a good thing that you state your views here. I simply think that you are not looking at the big picture here, and need to look at things from a different perspective. I wish you continued success in your hobby endeavors. Regards, Scott F.>

Ich Woes (8/4/04)
Six months ago I upgraded my Marine tank to 85 gal. I had 2 clowns  and a Majestic Angel. Everyone was doing great until I purchased a powder blue tang. <Ich city. Did you not quarantine for 4 weeks first?> Within weeks the entire tank was infected with ich. I tried fresh water dips to no avail. Although the fish appeared a little better after the dip, by the next day they were covered with parasites again. (Why dip when the tank is infested with ich?) <Which is why I favor removal to QT to treat there.>  I even tried freshwater dip on my angel and put him in my old (26Gal) tank knowing that tank was parasite free but the dip DID NOT kill the parasites and guess what... the 26 gal tank now is infested with the disease. This tanks only other resident, my little cowfish, died a week later) My question, how do I rid my tanks of this problem? <6-8 weeks of no fish. All of the answers you seek are in the ich articles and FAQs. Take the time to read them and you will be well-rewarded. You may also want to read Steven Pro's excellent ich articles that start here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm> There are no fish left. I raised the temp to 84 and lowered the salinity to l.012. Will I destroy my biological filter leaving it this way? <No, but inverts may be at risk.>  How long should I wait before reintroducing fish to my tank? <Minimum six weeks, eight even better. For 4 of those weeks, your first new fish can be in quarantine.> Any advice is greatly appreciated! <BTW, powder blues and majestics are both rather difficult to keep and grow too big for your tank. Consider more appropriate fish.> Thanks, Carol <Hope this helps, Steve Allen>

Staying The Course...(Ich Treatment)
Hello Crew!
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
If you don't mind, I would like to update and ask a question.  I have positively ID'd my tang as having Cryptocaryon.  That was a few weeks ago.  I tried hyposalinity at 1.009 for approx. 2weeks, but found it to be ineffective.  Rather than continuing (FOWLR) I decided to bite the bullet and separated my fish into a QT tank.  I have been treating with Copper Sulfate at .25ppm.  After 1-2 days, all signs of ich disappeared.  It has been 11 days since I started the copper treatment.  I had been running the FOWLR tank at low salinity during this time (11 days at approx 85-86F) and slowly raising salinity back to normal (no fish in it).  I would like to ask your suggestion for returning my fish to the main tank-when is it safe-(I have read life cycle of Cryptocaryon is 10 days, but others say possible 30 days-is this possible) and whether it is safe to discontinue copper treatment in 2-3 days (as directions on package state).  Thank you very very much for all your help.  
Jeff
<Well, Jeff, you don't need to keep the copper concentration in the treatment tank any longer than the manufacturer recommends (usually around 14-21 days). I'd keep all of the fishes out of the main tank for a full month, or longer, as dormant Cryptocaryon parasites can strike when the fishes return...No sense rushing things here...Just follow through on the treatment, and keep the newly-cured fishes in the copper-free hospital tank for a couple of more weeks, and you'll be fine! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Another Ich Battle...
I have a 54 gallon saltwater corner tank that I lost 3 fish to Ich in about 6 weeks ago. I dosed my tank with copper before I lost them ......but I waited too long to treat ( I am a novice).
<All part of the learning curve...Don't be too hard on yourself>
My question to you is...........the tank sat empty of fish for about 5 weeks and I tested the copper level it is below efficacy level at about .1 .....I just bought a Lemonpeel angel 2 days ago and it looks like one fin is getting white spots on it. He's still eating aggressively but occasionally scratches on a rock. So tonight I dose my 54 gallon with about 50 drops of copper and turned my skimmer off. I don't have a copper test kit.
<You must check for copper whenever you use it, or you will not be able to maintain a therapeutic dose, or you may even overdose>
I will get one tomorrow........but I know you have to catch Ich really quick and I don't want to overdose or underdose my fish before I can get a kit.
<Exactly!>
With a little copper in the tank, and the copper I put in tonight should I wait till I test tomorrow........to put more in, also is it safe to keep my skimmer off for 3 weeks to keep copper level up.
<I would not add any more copper until you can test for it. Also, you really don't want to treat in the display tank. With all of the substrate, etc., it becomes very difficult to maintain a proper level in the tank. s far as the skimmer is concerned, I'd keep it on...But, as I said before- I would not treat in the display!>
I don't want nitrate levels too high and have to do a water change before the copper kills the ich. I have live rock by the way and it is a marine tank only. I know the rock is pretty much sacrificed by the copper.
<Yep>
I just want to do right by this fish and don't want to get discouraged. Thanks and I appreciate any help I can get.
<Well, I'd back-pedal a bit and do all that I can to eliminate copper from the display tank (Poly Filter or CupriSorb excel at removing copper). Then, Id let this tank sit without fishes (or copper) for another 6 weeks, performing regular water changes and other maintenance as usual. The fish should be treated in a separate tank or Rubbermaid container with copper or formalin, per the manufacturer's recommendations. Read all about this "two front" approach to ich treatment on the WWM site. You can beat it! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Alternative Therapies For Ich (1/27/04)
   Greetings WWM Crew! <To You as Well. Steve Allen here.>
   I seem to have gotten into an Ich mess despite my best attempts at quarantine.  Here is my current situation - I have a 150 fish only system housing 5 fish - a damsel, a striped puffer and a longhorn cowfish from another tank in my house, a yellow tang and a juvenile queen angel, both recent purchases.  The tang entered near the end of cycling, the angel shortly there after, followed last week by the three others.  Nitrites and Ammonia are zero, Nitrate just barely registers.
   I've never seen Ich in my old tank, and I guess I wrongly assumed that I was okay... and of course failed to quarantine the last 3 fish. <Live and learn.> Yesterday I noticed a couple white spots on the fins of the puffer and cowfish, and they sure look like Ich. <You are almost certainly right.> I'm now in the situation of having 5 large-ish fish to house and treat. with only a 15 gallon hospital / QT tank (my secondary QT is also my water mixing trash can). I definitely can't house 5 separately, and I think the stability of the big tank is best for the fish. <Big Rubbermaid tubs with biofiltration, circulation & heat work well.>
   I travel quite a bit for work, and don't have anyone I trust to do daily water changes, etc - my girlfriend has learned to feed correctly, but that's about it. <Understood.>
   I know you're against treating in the main tank, but I guess I'm looking for some alternatives.  I like the idea of hyposalinity, but I've found a lot of conflicting information on the subject.  <Many opinions out there.> I've already started to lower the salinity <Do you have inverts?--could be dangerous to them>, and I'm now running the UV sterilizer 24 hours a day. <May kill the free-swimming organisms if flow rate correct. The theory then is that if few are able to get to your fish, most eventually die for lack of a host.> I'm also tempted to try copper.  <Resist this with all your strength. This will be nothing but trouble and disaster. Will kill your biofilter and inverts. May kill your cowfish and thus wipe out your tank. Will ruin your sand and rock, causing them to leach toxic copper forever. Should only be used in QT.> What exactly are the detrimental effects of doing these in my main system? <As above.> Am I just wasting time, or is there viable "if-you-have-to-do-it" alternative? <The QT/fallow method is the only proven way.> I'd love to run fallow for weeks, but I just don't think my fish would make it. <I understand your predicament. I can tell you that I had a few spots of ich on two fish in my tank last July. I was very careful about water quality and ran UV for several weeks. I have not seen a spot of ich on any fish since. A word of warning: ich will "disappear" after a few days and then may come back a hundred fold a couple of weeks later when the next, bigger generation is ready to leave the substrate and infest fish. It may then be too late to save your fish. That's the risk you take if you do not immediately treat aggressively. You have to weigh the factors and decide what's best for your situation. There was a good article by Scott Michael in Aquarium USA 2004. You should be able to find this at Petco or PetSmart. Advanced Aquarist Online is running a good series of articles right now too. Unfortunately, this month's is only number 3 of 5. Check here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/toc.htm>
Many Thanks, Dave <Hope this helps.>

A Noble Experiment (Ich Treatment)
About how big," in microns preferably", is the free swimming stage or tomont stage of these protozoa?
<Anywhere from 60-370 microns in size>
Can they be filtered out effectively?
<In the free-swimming stages, it is theoretically possible, but probably rather difficult, because the density of the protozoans in the water column is rather sparse. Usually easier to siphon out the tomonts after 12-18 hours, when they create a cyst and attach to substrates. Using daily 100% water changes, siphoning from the bottom in a bare tank may allow a successful cure without using medications, as you are probably aware>
I have a 20 gallon QT  tank with a piece of PVC pipe and two smooth round rocks about eight inches in diameter without any bottom substrate I.E. gravel  that I am experimenting with.
<Good>
I'm trying to eliminate these critters by using a 1/12 hp Little Giant pump linked to a filter canister.  I am also implementing a 30 watt double helix UV sterilizer  with a flow rate of about 1 1/2 gallons per minute.
<Interesting...>
Hyposalinity  has been established at a reading of 1.008 and I am also using light manipulation.  I have set the temp to 82 degrees," I realize only the one type of protozoa will be affected". I plan on getting a protein skimmer before I start. The tank has been established for about 2 months now with a whisper 30-60 bio-filter that was established by live rock.  I was basically wondering what size filter I should try and use in the canister or if I'm just wasting my time and use it for extra filtration?
<Not a waste of time, but you'd want to go with a micron sleeve of some sort>
I plan to go to the LFS and buy one of the most infested damsels and try to cure then return it if it gets better or he might just become the local in my QT tank? Just a thought.  If this doesn't work I will just let the tank go fallow for a month or so, I've got nothing but time.
<Interesting and noble idea...ell worth the experiment>
That's my new saying after I failed so miserably on my first attempt at saltwater. Just wanted to let you guy's know, if it wasn't for your site I would have already given up on keeping saltwater fish.. Thanks again.
<I like your expression...Do take your time and carefully record your results. I wish you luck on your experiment. Regards, Scott F.>

Ick on my shark - How to treat
First, thank you for taking the time to help us hobbyist.  The wealth of information you guys share is amazing.
My situation: I have a 110 gal FOWLR (and fine grain sand) DAS tank/filter/skimmer housing a 4" dogface puffer, 5" antennata lionfish, and a 7" banded cat shark (I know this tank is too small to keep the shark for long,
<Do monitor nitrogenous waste content as well (ammonia...) as the Dutch Aquarium Systems filters are puny, inconstant>
plans for the near future include a custom 12' 350-400 gallon tank built into my living room wall). My last addition to the tank was a 4" Porkfish.
My problem:
Everything went fine for about 2 months then all of the sudden Ick broke out (the day before I left town for a week I noticed it). When I returned the Porkfish was very sick and died a couple days later. My puffer is also ill now. He has taken to swimming directly in front of a powerhead - I guess it is kind of like being rubbed without being scratched by the rock - really a neat behavior but I would rather have never witnessed it. My shark is showing a handful of Ick spots. The lion is fine. I have lowered the SG to just under 1.018 which has helped but not cured the problem.
<It won't>
It seems like they are not getting worse but they are not getting better.  I assume a lot of the parasites are dying due to the SG but the stronger ones are living to attach to a host.  
<A good way to put this>
Instead of a massive infection killing my puffer I am afraid of the cumulative impact they are having on his gills.  If I don't get this treated I am going to have a puffer with emphysema.  All parameters (pH, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia....) are good. Whether I move the fish to a treatment "tank" or treat in the main tank - what medication can I use? I am afraid CopperSafe will kill my shark. I have Paragon II but I do not know enough about it to use it just yet. What can I do?  Should I go lower on the SG, around 1.015?
Thanks
<You might have success with a combination of elevated temperature (to the mid 80's F.) and the administration of Quinine Hydrochloride solution... sold still... and used as an anti-protozoal with some fishes. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-27,GGLD:en&q=quinine+hydrochloride+fish+disease&spell=1
This is a treatment I have used with success with juvenile sharks... many years ago... as a consultant to public aquariums. Bob Fenner>

A rainbow of colors to treat ich... blue, green or copper
Hello Bob! Thank you for your very informative articles. I'm new to marine tanks. I have two saltwater tanks; one 55 gallon and a 10 gallon quarantine tank (I'm at work but will send the other stats later). The fish in the small tank just came down with ich. Should I remove live rock and hermit crabs before performing a copper treatment on the fish?
<... you will have to>
If so, I don't want to chance contaminating the big tank by transferring the hermit crabs and live rock to that tank, but am not sure how to store them while quarantine tank is being treated.
<You... need another tank>
Also, I went to the fish store and they gave me a copper treatment kit, copper test kit, and "ich Attack" from Kordon (it’s positioned as being “100% organic and safe for reef and live rock aquariums”). Do you know if the latter works very well?
<I do not. But, the owner of the company, Bob Rofen is not a fakir... I am very curious to know how the product singles out the one type of protozoan though.>
I also have some hermit crabs in the larger tank and am now worried that they might spread ich to the clownfish. Should I treat the hermit crabs for a fresh water dip or take all of the hermit crabs back to the store because they are suspects for carrying ich? 
<Do not freshwater dip the Hermits... or any invertebrate marine animal...>
I just finished reading "Fighting the war on two fronts" and wanted to pick up some Methylene blue to treat all of the hermit crabs in the big tank (and then maybe put some of them back or take them back to the store).
<Mmm, better by far to take the tact of isolating possible vectors... in the absence of fish hosts, the Cryptocaryon will die out or lose much of its virulence>
At lunch (and also before reading your article is when I bought the Ich attack. I also have Rid Ich at home and noticed that it contains formaldehyde and chloride salt of malachite green (but strangely enough the water turns BLUE). 
<Yes... this is the Malachite>
Also, I’ve read that poor water quality, stressed fish or a sudden change in water temperature could trigger an ich outbreak.
<Yes... though marine white spot is far more often "imported" with new livestock than triggered in place>
Do you have an opinion about which one may have been the biggest culprit? I’d like to narrow my focus to see what I need to look for in the future to prevent something like this from happening again. 
<No way to tell given the information you have provided. Bob Fenner>

Re: a rainbow of colors to treat ich... blue, green or copper
Hello Dr. Bob,
<Just Bob>
Thanks for being so kind and sharing your wealth of knowledge to help people that you don’t even know. I saw your name on another site as a reference and thought it was cool because you just personally responded to a message that I sent you just yesterday.
<Mmm, wouldn't you?>
So, here is what’s gone on since my last message: Quarantine tank:
10 gallons
Emperor filter fit for a 50 gallon tank
Underwater heater
Live rock and gravel
Temp 79 degrees (raising it from 75.9)
Salinity is about 1.021 (I think but will have to get back to you because I forgot to write it down)
Two damsels with ich (discovered yesterday morning).
We treated the fish to a freshwater bath last night, but it didn’t last for very long. The small fish immediately fell to the bottom of the container and rolled onto its side when we put him into the freshwater dip. We took him out right away because he was so stressed. The larger fish we left in for almost a minute before he started thrashing around and hitting his head. 
<Happens... you did pH adjust the water... it was about the same temp.?>
Initially, we prepared a Methylene Blue dip, but decided against it when we read conflicting information between the manufacturer’s directions and your treatment instructions. Your instructions said to turn the water dark blue and leave the fish in for about two minutes, but the container recommended a larger dosage and said in bold letters that the fish was to remain in the Methylene dip for no more than ten seconds.
<Mmm, either one... Methylene Blue is VERY safe... in fact it's administered intravenously into "blue babies" in some cases, places... where folks don't go for blood mixing>
I also was hesitant because I didn’t want to risk squishing the black fish because I wasn’t able to really see them in the dark blue water and that’s why we pulled the plug on the Methylene dip. Should we try to dip the fish again? If the answer is yes, should we follow your instructions for the Methylene dip or the manufacturer’s?
<Either way... >
We did NOT treat the Quarantine tank with copper, but instead used Rid-Ich because I treated them with a dose before I left for work in the morning and the bottle recommended against using multiple treatments at the same time. I also removed all of the hermit crabs and took them back to the store.
<Mmm, you need to do a bit of re-studying... the rock and substrate in the treatment/quarantine tank? No good... the copper kills the life there, and the material absorbs the copper.>
A bigger problem surfaced this morning when we noticed that one of the clown fish had two white spots on its body. He is located in the main tank, 55 gallons, 78 degrees with two clowns, five hermit crabs, two damsels and some live rock. 
A friend of ours recommended that we purchase a UV sterilizer so, I hopped online and bought two Turbo Twist 3X UV Sterilizers from Drs. Foster and Smith. I read that you CANNOT treat the fish with copper and a UV sterilizer at the same time because the UV sterilizer rips some of the copper molecules apart and makes the copper dosage deadly; it also read that you aren’t supposed to use it with other treatments. With regards to “other treatments” I’m assuming that they are referring to the Rid-Ich medicine. Do you know if the UV sterilizer can be used with Rid-Ich? 
<Can be>
So, we’re not sure what to do now. Are we supposed to pull out all of the fish from the large tank and surely condemn them to death by moving them into a smaller quarantine tank with the damsels that are covered by ich?
<If this is the only treatment system available... yes... you might throw in some chemically inert decor... like PVC parts, pipe... for habitat... need to remove the LR, sand...>
If so, would you recommend that we strip out the rock and gravel from the quarantine tank and turn it into a copper treatment tank or simply continue with the Rid-Ich? Or should we move forward with a third tank and make it a bare bottomed copper treatment tank? Also, what would happen if we left the four fish in the larger tank (including the clown fish with one or two white spots on it), hooked up the UV sterilizer to it and did NOT treat it with any medications? 
<... this "going back and forth" with questions won't work... too much lag time... Again, if you're interested in saving your livestock, please read on WWM, elsewhere, talk with others... and make up your own mind re a treatment protocol... Now, as this parasite can proceed quickly...>
Thanks in advance for all of your help. It just gets difficult because there are so many differing opinions when you start investigating diseases and treatments online or asking friends & pet store employees for their opinions.
Regards, Tiffany
<Tiffany... don't become confused... ask point blank why the people who are telling you believe (the science, fact) what they are telling you...>
FYI: I returned the 100% organic product because another fish store person said that, “it didn’t work”. I guess he tried it before and didn’t have success with the product. No offence to your friend.
<None taken... I have known Dr. Rofen in the trade for more than thirty years... Kordon/Novalek/Oasis... the ARCS... are venerable companies... but even the best have some clunkers now and then. Bob Fenner>

Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Hi guys...
<Ceri>
Well I just bought a Coral Beauty Angel, he looked OK in the LFS but the next day after bringing him home he developed white patches on the fins and I am starting to see small white specs on him.
<Man, this is the year for parasitic troubles!>
Not many just a few. So, I read, read, and read some more on your site. This is what I have done. Good news, I put him directly in a QT tank. I have raised temperature to 80 and lower salinity for hyposalinity conditions. I have also ordered some Methylene Blue and CopperSafe.
<Good moves>
So, here are the questions. How many times do I perform the fresh water dip with Methylene Blue? Only once?
<Once (on the way into QT) is best>
Once a day? Leave him there for 3-5 minutes?
<About right...>
How do I know if this stresses the fish?
<Observation... that the fish isn't laying over "too much", breathing "too hard"...>
Also, won't putting him back into the affected water re-start the ich?
<Bingo, yes... the reason the dip/bath is best performed en route...>
Should I start the copper treatment as soon as he is returned to tank?
<ASAP>
If he looks better I understand I need to stop the copper treatment through water changes.
<Actually, no... you need to keep a physiological dose of free/cupric ion present for the two week treatment period... you may well not see the "ich itself"...>
I then want to bring water to the same conditions as my main tank. I am worried that lowering the temperature will bring Ich back, is that possible?
<Not if it is not present...>
Please advise, I want to save this guy. So far, he still looks good, but not eating as well today. Poor thing has no algae to eat in the QT, hope this is OK. I have never done a fresh water dip before, I am probably more stressed than the fish!
Thanks...Ceri.
<Likely... these baths are not of themselves that much strain on the fish... the netting is far worse... Bob Fenner><<Wish I would have emphasized that once the Cryptocaryon was off the hosts, it would not "magically" reappear like freshwater (Ichthyophthiriasis) ich. RMF>>

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Thanks Bob, really appreciate your help. Since catching this guy will be stressful...and I would have to put him back into the same QT, should I skip the dip and go for the copper only?
<Yes, I would. Thanks for the clarification>
(yes lessoned learned, will dip all new first FIRST) Copper hasn't arrived yet, I will start as soon as it does. Do I keep the water at hyposalinity during the copper, or can I bring it back to normal?
Thanks...Ceri
<Can leave low if the fishes being treated are not "too" stressed already... a balance my friend. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty, ich
Great, thanks Bob. I will slowly bring water conditions back up to normal. I don't want to fight monitoring copper and hyposalinity tank at the same time. My QT has live rock and substrate it in (thanks to LFS who suckered me into it). I will remove before starting copper treatment as I understand it makes an accurate reading difficult
<Actually will quickly absorb the copper>
(from the FAQs on your site !!) and will ease in removal of these nasty bugs !!
Thanks for the support. Ceri.
<You're welcome my friend. Steady on. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty/Copper - Follow-up
Hi guys...well I am sad to say my Coral Beauty has taken a turn for the worse. I started copper and now he looks TERRIBLE. Appears as if there are no white specs on him, but there is a large white fuzzy patch, that is growing, right next to his, well, butt. Nitrite and Ammonia levels have spiked through the roof. I did a 20% water change Fri, 50% water change yesterday, and 50% water change today and levels are still high. I have decided to stop the copper and just focus on getting the water to normal. I added PolyFilter... 
<Good> 
... and added a new filter cartridge in the Emperor 280. Question is, what happened to this poor fish? Does copper kill the bacterial function of the filter?
<Yes, especially at the .25 level I see below> 
I am desperate and just don't know what is wrong with him, or how to help. Please advise. The directions on the bottle are not clear, and the copper test kit always read over .25 of copper in the tank, even after water changes. 
<Copper is an effective method of killing diseases if used properly and with care. For angels, the copper level shouldn't exceed .15, .25 is dangerous. Are you using an ionic copper or chelated, or which brand/type are you using?>
Was the treatment done in quarantine in a rock/substrate free tank?  Also, since I was reading your site last night, I have a question for my main 65 gal tank. I have 75 lbs live rock, Fluval 404 with carbon and bio-material, Emperor 400 bio-wheel, and a Prism skimmer. Should remove the bio-filter material from the Fluval 404? Is this adding nitrates?
<I don't believe you have enough live rock to remove the bio material. Yes the rings can increase nitrate slightly.> 
Also the Fluval is adding tons of tiny bubbles in the tank, I was thinking of replacing it with a Eheim Wet/Dry canister filter. Is this a good choice? 
<There are better ways for less $. Even though the Prizm is rated for a tank your size, it is not that efficient to handle it. I use one myself on my 29 mini reef. Just great for that.> 
If it is, I should not use the bio- material for that as well since I have live rock - right?
< If it were me, I would seriously think about adding a hang-on refugium with a live sand base and add some Caulerpa. This will help control the nitrates and nuisance algae. You will need to buy a small PC fixture to place over the refugium. CPR is coming out with their hang-on that includes a built-in skimmer. This would add to the skimming efficiency of your system.>
Question 3 - sorry - full of uncertainty today. I will do a freshwater dip with Meth. Blue for each new fish from now on BUT - the directions say to leave the fish only in the dip 10 seconds. I have read that the fish should be there 3 to 5 MINUTES. Which one is correct? And to be safe, it is good to dip when moving from the QT to the main tank just as an extra precaution? What is the correct concentration of blue to use? 
<I'd follow info on the bottle.  Here is a link on disease prevention that has info on FW dipping. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm. James (Salty Dog)> 

Coral Beauty/Copper Follow-up, Doesn't Look Good..
Thanks for quick reply. Sorry to say, Coral Beauty basically dead. On it's side breathing very hard, I added water, and some of the bio-material from my main tank to QT tank, but afraid it is too late.  Yes the QT is rock and substrate free (well there is a teeny bit on the bottom since I removed existing substrate before treatment.) I used 7ml of CopperSafe for 10 gal tank, per directions. I feel terrible, I just killed this innocent fish. I really want to be sure this does not happen again. Directions said to leave in the copper filter, was that a good idea? 
<Ceri, usually when a fish gets that bad, copper will just finish it off. It' very important to treat right at the onset of the disease. If the directions say to leave the carbon in place, then that's what I'd do. Sorry. James (Salty Dog)>