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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis: Cures 2
Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The
War On Two Fronts,
Cryptocaryoniasis,
Parasitic Disease, Quarantine,
Quarantine of Marine Fishes,
Related FAQs: Crypt
Cures 1, Best Crypt FAQs,
Crypt FAQs 1, Crypt FAQs 2,
Crypt FAQs 3, Crypt FAQs 4,
Crypt FAQs 5, Crypt FAQs 6,
Crypt FAQs 7, Crypt FAQs 8,
Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10,
Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12,
Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14,
Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt
FAQs 16,
Crypt FAQs 17,
Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19,
Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21,
Crypt FAQs 22,
Crypt FAQs 23,
Crypt FAQs 24, & FAQs on Crypt:
Identification, Prevention,
"Causes", Phony Cures That Don't
Work, Hyposalinity & Ich, &
Marine Parasitic Disease,
Parasitic Marine Tanks,
Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine
Velvet Disease,
Biological Cleaners, Treating
Parasitic Disease, Using
Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease,
Best Quarantine FAQs, Quarantine 1,
Quarantine 2,
Quarantine 3, Quarantine 4, Quarantine
5, Quarantine 6, Quarantine
7, Quarantine 8, Quarantine
9, Quarantine 10, Quarantine
11, Quarantine 12,
Quarantining Invertebrates, | .JPG)
All invertebrates out of the pool!
Steven Pro's excellent ich articles that start here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
& Terry Bartelme's
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm |
Hyposalinity, ORP and
Raffles B/F... Crypt philosophically – 11/03/09
I continue to really enjoy your site's articles and FAQs. I have some
questions that I couldn't find answered in your FAQs or other sources.
<Okay>
As background, here's my setup: 220g FOWLR, T5 lighting, 35g refugium
(reverse light cycle, growing Chaeto), 40g sump, 64g Rubbermaid overflow
sump, Aqua-C EV240 skimmer with Mag 18 pump, 300lbs LR, RO/DI,
auto-water top-off (aerated and heated to tank temp), ORP controller,
Ozotech 300mg ozonizer and DI dryer. The display is completely covered
by a glass top and wood canopy. The refugium, sumps, skimmer, etc. are
in the basement under the display tank and are uncovered (with
dehumidifier running). Circulation in the display is about 6000gph,
including the overflow returns and four Koralia 4's.
As you may recall, I wrote to you before about my ich problem. I tried
hyposalinity in the display, which worked for a short while, but the ich
eventually returned a few months later, so I've removed all of the fish
for treatment and the display is running fallow. I had an old 120g tank
that I was able to set up with wet/dry filtration for treatment. I gave
each fish a 5 minute freshwater bath with Methylene Blue before putting
them into the treatment tank. The treatment tank is running at 1.008spg
(tested with refractometer). The treatment tank and the display are both
running at 82F. After 6 weeks, my plan is to give each fish another 5
minute freshwater bath with Methylene Blue before putting them back into
the display. Is this sufficient treatment to rid the fish of ich while
the display runs fallow?
<Mmmm, maybe. Cryptocaryon that is "very entrenched" can be below
susceptibility of dips/baths and hyposalinity (embedded in the fishes'
skins)>
Or should I be treating with copper for those fish that will tolerate
it?
<I'd use a Quinine cpd.: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm>
It's been 4 weeks and no signs of anything resembling ich in the
treatment tank, except... Just recently, I noticed a small white dot or
miniature lump on the top edge of each side fin of my white faced tang
(otherwise, the fins and body are clear, at least for now). Given the
long term hyposalinity, is it possible that this is Lymphocystis and not
ich?
<Sure>
Or is it possible that the ich is actually returning even in the
hyposalinity environment?
<Possibly>
If it is Lymphocystis, would it be best to just leave the tang alone for
now and then return him to the display with the others?
<I'd move all... maybe add a/some biological cleaner/s>
I worry that moving him to a separate QT might cause more stress (though
his behavior seems fine and he competes well for food).
When returning the fish to the display (given that the treatment tank is
running at 1.008 and the display is running at 1.025), should I
acclimate the fish to the display water before the freshwater bath, or
is that not necessary, since they're getting a big shock either way?
<I'd acclimate them... a thousandth or two per day>
Given the above treatment plan for the display tank and the fish (as
modified by any recommendations you make), how likely is it that the ich
will return?
<In all actuality/honesty, yes. Many, if not most hobbyist systems have
resident Crypt populations... esp. ones that have evidence of previous
outbreaks. Please don't let this "get you down"... Life is, after all,
"a series of compromises"... There really are few instances of extreme
"all okay" circumstances. Shoot for a balance and be vigilant, satisfied
with your efforts>
More specifically, would you recommend that I get rid of my dwarf zebra
lion and instead get some cleaner shrimp when I am ready to return my
fish to the display?
<I'd risk other Cleaners... Gobiosoma/Elacatinus spp. perhaps>
I love my lion, but I really don't want to go through any more battles
with ich.
When I had previously tried hyposalinity in the display, it seems that
all of my pods perished. Is it possible that other critters in the rocks
and sand would have died with hyposalinity as well?
<Yes>
Do I need to add new live rock in the display and/or fuge?
<Just a bit... a few pounds>
(As a side note, I added various snails to the display after the
hyposalinity was over. Looks like the Nassarius snails have had babies
-- and the fallow tank is giving them time to grow.)
<Ah, good>
Also, my ozonizer works great -- it pumps up the ORP to the high 300's
(and occasionally just over 400) -- but when the ozonizer is offline,
the ORP quickly drops to the low 200's. Would the rapidly falling ORP
indicate that there is a problem that I should be trying to find, or
could it just be due to the fact that my display is fully covered and
doesn't get much oxygen exchange?
<Just high metabolite addition, metabolic activity...>
Because the ORP drops so fast, the ozonizer doesn't shut off for long
before the controller senses the need to fire it up again. As a result,
the skimmer doesn't get much of a chance to remove as much waste.
<There is that much less to remove with the addition of O3>
Would you recommend any adjustments in my setup?
<Mmm, maybe removing the glass top, using a screen or louver cover
instead>
Lastly, I currently have three B/Fs -- a raffles, a double saddled and a
Spotband. My favorite is the raffles. Do they do well in pairs or
groups?
<Pairs>
If so, do they need to be added at the same time, or could I add more
even though I already have one?
<Another can be added here>
Sean Patrick Whelan
<Bob Fenner>
Ich Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Hi folks,
<Elsie.> Well, it's been two weeks since I tried to do a 100% water
change on the QT tank and I guess it didn't work because I think I see
spots on the blue tang and the sailfin tang. So frustrating! <Tis
frustrating.> Should I try the copper again for two weeks, or should
I try hyposalinity? Quick Cure? <Do a Google search re
Chloroquine phosphate on WWM and the web. Just safer, less toxic, this
is the stuff to use here. It can be hard to find, the "in the know" LFS
now carry it, otherwise do call a vet or check the web. One source:
http://www.spectrumchemical.com/retail/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Chemicals&product%5Fid=6647185.
Most chemical supplies will have this too. Dose at 10mg/L.> Thanks in
advance Elise <Welcome, Scott V.> Re: Ich
Treatment/Quarantine Cleaning 11/17/08 Scott, Thanks so
much for your reply. <Welcome.> I have never heard of the stuff
before. <Many...most have not.> I've been glued to my computer
digesting all the FAQ's on the subject. A couple of things I'm
wondering if you could clear up for me: Why Chloroquine Phosphate as
opposed to quinine sulfate? <They are completely different
compounds.> The quinine sulfate seems readily available from that
phispharm place. The link to spectrum you provided asked me to submit a
form, wanted to know the name of my organization, etc. <A pain, just
one source.> I will try calling some local vets. <Some will know,
others will not. Keep chemical supply houses in mind too. A quick
explanation of what you are doing may be necessary.> Will the stuff
have any effect on biological filtration? <Supposedly not, I do have
my doubts, though have not quantified them.> I read that person's
post about dosing 20ppm then waiting a week, doing 50% percent change,
dosing 10ppm, repeating three more weeks. I am still combating
ammonia, doing daily water changes. I guess I'd have to redose with each
water change? <Yes, prorated of course.> Could get pricey, no?
<Comparative to other treatment and depending on the source it could,
but it works!> Thanks for your assistance, Scott, I'm very anxious to
try this chemical, as I do feel that my tangs suffer in the copper.
<They do.> Elise <Scott V.> Chloroquine Phosphate
Source 10/28/08 Hi Crew, <Matt.> Thanks for all you do
for the hobby! I have noticed recently on the 'dailies' that Bob is very
excited about the prospects of Chloroquine phosphate as a treatment for
Ich and the like. I was interested in finding out where this medication
may be available for future reference, so I did a bit of googling (not
sure that's a word lol) and found that it is the active ingredient in a
medication named Avlocor (in the UK at least). Avlocor is an
anti-malarial drug in 250mg tablet form and is obtainable without a
prescription at the following link -
http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/avloclor-250mg-chloroquine-phosphate-tablets_1_3474.html
-for a very reasonable price. Would this be a form of Chloroquine
Phosphate that would be able to be utilised in the aquarium, and if so
how much would an effective dose be? <It should work out fine. 10
mg/l would be the dose. I don't know what it cost you, but this can be
had through many chemical supply companies, with many "in the know" LFS
keeping some on hand.> Thanks for your hard work and commitment,
Matt. <Welcome and thank you, Scott V.> <BTW, thank you very much
for sharing your finds. Scott V.> Re: Chloroquine
phosphate Source 10/29/08 Hi Scott, <Hey there Matt.>
Thanks for the response. The cost of these tablets is £1.89 (~$3.10) for
a pack of 20, 250mg tablets. <Geez, pharmaceuticals cost sooo much
here in the U.S.> If my math is correct this works out at 3.7 pence
(~6 cents) per 100 mg. I don't know if this is expensive or cheap as I
am having a hard time finding a chemical supplier who stocks it. <Tis
cheap, for my area!> Maybe it's easier in the US (I'm in the UK).
<Is prescription as a drug from my knowledge.> At 10mg/l recommended
dosage, I presume the easiest way to dose it would be to dissolve a
250mg tablet in 25l of saltwater and use this for start-up water in a
hospital tank and subsequent water changes. What do you think? <This
could work, yes.> I also asked about its use, in case there were any
other ingredients in this 'designed for human's' tablet that would
mal-affect fish and/or inverts. Do you think there are? <Doubtful,
more like fillers and binders.> How effective would you consider this
as a treatment for Ich, in relation to copper or hypo? <Very
effective in my experience, can be used along with hypo. Do realize this
drug is photo sensitive, it will degrade with strong lighting.>
Thanks for your time, Matt. <Welcome, Scott V.>
Ich Treatment, SW, Tangs, Toby... 10/7/08
Crew, I recently purchased a 125 gallon tank from someone who was
getting out of the hobby complete with fish live rock and a few
inverts. <I see your pic... very nice> I currently also run a
180 gallon reef tank which has completely separate nets and
equipment. The 125 had been up and running for about 3 weeks when 2
fish started showing signs of ich. Here is the stock list of the
tank as it came. 150 lbs of live rock DSB- new when I set the
tank back up, with slight seeding from the old Skunk Cleaner
Shrimp Coral Banded Shrimp Misc Large Hermits and Huge Turbo
Snails Misc Soft Corals (xenia, zoos) 2" Picasso Trigger
<Mmm, will likely eat the Hermits, Snails, perhaps more in time>
2" Maroon Clown 2" Saddle Puffer 3" Hippo Tang 3" Yellow
Tang 2.5" Powder Brown Tang After reading over the WWM
archives, I have decided on the following plan of attack. (Please
correct me on medications:-) 1. Setup quarantine tank with
salinity, temp and ph that matches the display. 2. Catch all fish
except for puffer and move to the quarantine tank (55 gallons).
4. Move puffer into 5 gallon tank heavily bubbled and dose with
formalin for 30 minutes, <Mmm, may well be too long... Likely ten
minutes will do all the good that can... I would definitely be in
constant attendance, ready to move this fish...> transfer to
separate 10 gallon for 6 week stay. <Hard to keep such small
volumes stable....> 3. Dose OrganiCure to the 55 gallon tank, no
carbon just filter floss filtration for 6 weeks, with frequent water
changes and copper testing. <Mmmm, I'd rather go the
quinine/Chloroquine treatment route with this mix of fish
species...> 4. Return all inhabitants to the main display tank (-
the yellow tang, maroon clown and hippo tang that I may sell off to
make the quarantine period go smoother). My 180 has been a great
success from all of the information that I have read and used off of
your site. I included a picture to show it off. Thanks for your
help, Tim <I do think I will finally stop putting off my
minor "expose" re the use of Chloroquine phosphate... 10 mg/l...
Please do read re this, and quickly order, start using... Much
better... safer, less toxic than copper, formalin. Bob Fenner> |  |
A bit of a problem.... Marine Ich 8/17/08 Hey crew, I have been a
fan of your site for a while now. Diving into the saltwater scene when I
was 13. Since then I have had my hills to climb but learned more than
anyone can imagine in this hobby. <Great> Now 18, I'm running a
healthy 60 gallon reef and loving every bit of it. Anyhow, recently I
added a beautiful toadstool to my tank. It was from a mixed tank in my
LFS display. A week after adding this coral I noticed my Royal Gramma
has come down with ICH. Since the toadstool was my latest addition in
over 4 months I assume it had the parasitic hitchhiker on the rock he
came with. <Possible, and why QTing everything wet is important.>
As you know it is near impossible to remove a basslet out of a reef
without massive deconstruction. The Gramma is still eating but looking
rough and I am worried the parasite will spread. <Probably already
has.> Any suggestions as to what I should do? <You basically have
2 choices, remove all fish from the tank, treat in a hospital tank, and
allow the tank to run fallow for 6 to 8 weeks, or maintain the water
quality very high in the main tank, feed well, and hope the fish are
strong enough to resist the parasites. Be aware that any new additions
will probably be infected too and may not be strong enough to survive.>
I appreciate your time, Aaron <Welcome> <Chris>
Marine ich treatment, Chloroquine Phosphate 7/22/08
To the Crew at WWM: <Gene> For many years you've helped fellow
hobbyists through their troubles including myself. This time I do not
have a question but I would like to share my experience with the fight
I've been having for YEARS against ich. <Please do> Before I begin
I would like to remind everyone that proper quarantine is essential. It
is NOT an option. A QT system can be set up in an out of the way place
(mine's in the laundry room). My QT system is a 50 gal. AGA with a 15w
UV, large Aquaclear power filter, CPR BakPak skimmer, heater and a
variety of plants and PVC sections. This is what's worked for me,
especially since I usually have a couple of fish in QT so I needed the
extra room. My usual protocol would be to let the new fish settle in for
about a week <A very good practice> and then begin hyposalinity
therapy as a prophylactic measure for 3 weeks then slowly bring the SG
back up. Many people, myself included, can't wait to get their new fish
into their main system and don't have the patience to wait the month or
so. Try to think of how healthy the fish will be and the long term
enjoyment that will come from having that healthy fish in your system.
In the meanwhile you'll be able to observe your new fish while in QT.
<Good spiel> As stated earlier I have been battling ich for YEARS
with what I believe now to be a very resistant strain. I don't like to
use chemicals so I've tried hyposalinity many times only for the
parasite to reappear. I always QT my fish with an average QT period of 4
- 6 weeks. Awhile back, I read an article in FAMA about a product
called Chloroquine phosphate ( CP ). The author, Bob Goemans, also has a
book out that I obtained which explained the new chemical treatment. My
system is a 210 gal. AGA FOWLR with a sump capacity of 75 gal. and a 55
gal. refugium.. After I turned off my UV, Ozonizer, Skimmer and refugium
I began the treatment. At first I didn't lower the salinity so the
effectiveness was in question. A week later I began hyposalinity (SG
1.009) with a CP treatment. One week later the fish were looking
amazingly well. However, when I finished my first treatment and began
increasing the salinity, the ich returned. It was then I began believing
the parasite needs to go through its life cycle in order for many
treatments to be successful. I took a deep breath, regrouped and went a
different route. The following is what I did next. On 5/19 I
began treatment with CP. The first dose was a double dose of 20/ppm. and
I did not use hyposalinity. My SG was 1.018 which was been slowly raised
to 1.022.. On 5/26 I did a 50% water change and added the second dose.
This time at 10/ppm. On 6/3 I did another 50% water change and added the
third dose, again at 10/ppm. On 6/10 I performed the final 50% water
change and add the final dose at 10/ppm. I turned on my skimmer on 6/28
and turned on the UV and reconnected my refugium on 7/5. On July 8th.
all fish were doing well with no signs of parasites. I even introduced a
Cortez angelfish and 6 chalk basses on July 1st that were appropriately
quarantined for 6 weeks and they too are looking good. It's now July
22nd and the fish in my tank have never looked better!! At this point
I have to believe the CP was definitely effective in eliminating
Cryptocaryon that is a thorn in the side of many hobbyists. It appears
the correct protocol is as described above; do not use hyposalinity with
the CP treatment, use a double dose of 20ppm with first dose, 10ppm for
the next three doses with all doses precluded with a 50% water change.
(Of course not to be used in the presence of photosynthetic organisms).
The Crew has helped many hobbyists over the years that I hope my
experience will also help other hobbyists out there an alternative
procedure in the battle against ich. It is not safe with photosynthetic
organisms but it appears to not have any negative effect on shrimp nor
crabs. Gene <Thank you for sharing your information and passion
Gene. Much appreciated. Bob Fenner>
Kordon Ich Attack
3/25/08 Hi team, <Hello John.> Just thought I would give
you my experience with the Kordon Ich Attack herbal remedy as there is
very little on your web site. <Little tidbits here and there, not
much.> This is no criticism as all that I know about marine fish
keeping I have learned from your site plus a couple of books so many
thanks for all the invaluable information contained on the web site.
<Welcome, thank you for the kind words.> I have a 100 gallon (UK)
tank with a refugium system using Chaetomorpha and miracle mud. I also
use a protein skimmer (Deltec MCE600). There is loads of live rock and a
fairly small bio load comprising of 3 Blue Chromis, 2 Ocellaris Clowns,
1 Black Cap Basslet, 1 Flame Angel fish, 1 Kole Tang, 1 Long Nose
Hawkfish, 1 Algae Blenny (salarias fasciatus), 2 Purple Firefish and 1
cleaner wrasse (who eats like a pig, and who I have had for over a year.
I did feel guilty about buying one after reading your web site but he is
a real character and services the other fish and is very healthy).
<Great, sounds like a very nice setup.> I had my first ever outbreak
of marine itch after purchasing a butterfly fish which unfortunately
died within a couple of weeks and who I think was the carrier (only my
second death!). <Too bad, sorry to hear this.> I then noticed the
dreaded white spots on the Kole Tang, the Black Cap Basslet and one of
the Clowns. All other fish appeared unaffected. I could not set up a
quarantine tank and keep an eye on water quality due to work commitments
and being away from home several nights a week. Plus it would almost be
impossible to catch the offending fish with all the live rock I have in
the tank. I know this is not the way to go but I didn't have much
choice. <Ideally we would all have and use quarantine tanks, it does
not always work that way.> I spoke to my LFS who recommended a UV
sterilizer which they said would help but wouldn't cure which concurs
with the information on your web site. <Yes.> I then did some
more research and came across the Kordon's herbal remedy. I sent away
for around 3 weeks worth of remedy and started treatment in conjunction
with the sterilizer. Initially the spots disappeared only to return
after a few days, obviously following the typical cycle of these
critters. However it only seemed to affect the Kole Tang and the Black
cap basslet the second time around, all other fish remained
unaffected and their behavior was as normal, I don't know why.
<These fish may have been weaker than the others from the first round,
or the Ich never really subsided.> All fish were still eating well
during this period. The spots also seemed to be less and less as the
treatment continued. All fish have now been spot free for around 12 days
so I can only assume that the combination of UV sterilizer and the
herbal remedy has done the trick. <That is good to hear.> It
may be that I haven't had an epidemic of marine Ich and the above has
nipped it in the bud and I may have been lucky but this stuff does seem
to work. It's worth a try but I think you do need to continue treatment
for quite a while. All my corals have been unaffected by the last 3
weeks treatment. I did stop skimming during this time. Thought this may
be useful information to other enthusiasts in the same position. Kind
regards John Dickinson <This is a product that one hears many
differing opinions on from time to time and made by a great company.
Thank you for sharing your success story with everybody! Scott V.>
Crypt the dragon 10/6/05 Bob, <Yes?> I have sent
many e-mails over the last couple of weeks concerning my battle with
Crypt. With your help, Crypt the dragon met his demise and a biological
disaster in the hospital tank has been avoided. The HT finally
cycled after multiple water changes using an established 29 gal tank
even while consistently replacing the Coppersafe removed by the water
changes. It surprised me that I was able to get the HT tank to cycle
while treating with Coppersafe. <Happens... not always> The only
thing I can attribute this to is the use of water from my established
tank to do the water changes. <Yes, the best source> Even with
this, I expected to battle the ammonia and nitrite throughout the entire
quarantine process due to the copper treatment. Believe me I'm not
complaining. I was doing water changes in my sleep. The copper
treatments end today in the HT and I will begin the process of water
changes to remove the remaining copper. The fish will be back in the
main tank in about 10 days. Again, I cannot tell you enough how I
appreciate your help and WWM. Mark <Congratulations on your
success. Bob Fenner> To Mark and Kathy/ ich in a 55 qt - Kim's
Very Hard-won Advice Hi crew, I just read the inquiries from
Mark and Kathy about their struggles with ich. Boy did this sound
familiar! I wanted to write in hopes that they would read this. I wanted
to tell them not to get frustrated, this next month will be HELL!
<Yikes! Is this George B. Jr.? Watch out for terrorists! They're
terrifying!> After I lost half of my fish the first week and a half
with the Quick Cure and doing 10 to 20 % water changes I changed to
CopperSafe... <Yay!> ...and changed 50% of the water [also had a
55 gallon qt] everyday for a month. I also had to pull one of the fish
into another tank temporarily to treat for a secondary bacterial
infection. Well I am done, I will hopefully be putting my fish back in
the main tank this weekend. My Raccoon's skin has healed beautifully and
I am happy to have saved the 3 fish I have left, they are doing good. It
was worth the early morning water changes and the 200 gallons of salt I
went through every week to save them!! So I guess I wanted to tell them
to hang in there, don't give up and read this website!!! I would have
lost ALL my fish had it not been for the wonderful help and info on this
site!! Have a great day! Kim <Thank you for your input. Bob
Fenner> Fish with Ich in a Hospital Tank.....Hypo, Formalin, or
Copper? (6-13-05) Hi all, I have been speed reading through much
of this site since last evening, trying to make a decision on how to
treat my pygmy angel and clown fish for ich. <Hi there,
Leslie here representing all this morning. Sorry to hear about your
fish.> I noticed 2-4 spots on each fish last night that were not
visible to me as early as that same morning. I am aware that all
treatments have their own pros and cons, but am mainly concerned with
the angel, knowing she would not tolerate full doses of copper, and
many opinions on this site lean towards hypo not being a good cure. I
have a stack of reference books, and a bugged out brain from info
overload. Please advise this new aquarist on the best way to proceed.
<Sure, I am a fan of freshwater dips followed by hyposalinity. I have
had very good luck with these methods. The fish can go directly from the
FW dip into the hyposalinity. The FW dip water must be dechlorinated,
and adjusted to the pH and temp of the water the fish are currently in.
Recommended treatment for FW dips are usually 7 to 15 min and Scott
Michael recommends up to 30 min. Keep in mind here you must remain with
the fish for the duration of the dip and any signs of distress…..
gasping or jumping at the surface, they should be returned to the main
or quarantine tank and slowly acclimated over several hours to the
hyposalinity. Some increased gilling is normal. Occasionally a fish
will lay over on it’s side. Should this happen try gently stimulating
it, most often they will respond to gentle stimulation, by returning to
a normal orientation in the water and the dip can be continued. If they
do not come around the dip needs to be terminated and they need to be
returned to their tank. Formalin is harsh as well as toxic to the
environment and a known carcinogen. I never use it as a first line
treatment. The other thing that is nice about hyposalinity is that it
can be used in conjunction with meds should you need to.> I have a
-10 gallon hospital tank (fish are in) <Perfect> -running whisper
filter with poly instead of carbon (good choice??) <Yes, fine, but
will need to be removed if you decide to go with meds vs. hyposalinity.>
-attached skimmer for water turnover, might this help keep parameters
in check or am I dreaming? <Nope……it should help. If you opt for
the FW dip and hyposalinity then a few pieces of live rock will do
wonders for the water quality. Anything that increases turnover and
oxygenation is beneficial. The skimmer will of course help with removal
of organic waste which should in turn help the water quality.>
Should I add Selcon or Garlic Extreme etc. to the food/water to
increase immunity? <I would be careful with any additives that
could diminish water quality. I would opt for Beta Glucan. There is
quite a bit of evidence out now about it’s the immune stimulating
effects. It can be obtained from any health food store. Here is some
information on Beta Glucan….
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/beta_glucan_biological_defense_modulator.html
. They recommend administration by gut loading live brine shrimp. You
could also dissolve some of it in RO or DI water, soak some flakes or
Nori, and then feed that. Another method, if you have access to a needle
and syringe, would be to again dissolve it in some water and inject it
into Mysis. A bit tedious and requires a steady hand and good eyesight
but does work well especially for my captive bred seahorses who prefer
Mysis to live brine believe it or not☺.> I should also mention all
LFS stores in my area are closed on Monday so I most likely will be
ordering meds on line and next day shipping them. <If you opt for
the FW dip followed by hyposalinity you can start immediately and do not
have to wait for meds to be shipped.> Thanks a bunch in advance. I
do not want to lose any fish here.....forever grateful for all you do!
<Your most welcome! Best of luck with your fish, Leslie> Re:
Fish in Hospital Tank with Ich.....Hypo, formalin or copper? Continued
(6-13-05) Hi Leslie, thank-you so much for your reply. <Your
very welcome Kelly.> I am feeling less panicked already!! <Glad
I could help dispel some of the panic. I can certainly relate and I have
never found it to be very helpful ;).> Well there are now 3 fish in
QT, probably soon to be 5 as other my other tank is also contaminated.
<Oh bummer, I am so sorry to hear that.> As this point I am thinking
of using one tank to house most of my rock and all inverts while using
the smaller 16 gallon to treat all 5 fish with hypo and dips. <That
sounds like a plan. The bigger tank would be a better option since there
are 3 additional fish. Be sure to do the dips in a separate container
and do not add any of the dip water back into the tank that will be
housing the fish. Since you are not adding meds daily water changes
would be a good idea. In addition to keeping up the water quality it
will help to dilute the parasite load.> Thanks for the excellent
advice on administering garlic to shrimp. I don’t think
you have to go to the trouble of gut loading the shrimp with the garlic.
I would vote for making life simpler and just soaking their food in the
Garlic Extreme. I really do think the Beta Glucan is a better immune
stimulant and would advise you go with that instead of the garlic.>
I did go ahead and order some Garlic Extreme and Selcon to supplement
feedings. Also I ordered Methylene Blue and Formalin 3. I was thinking
of using the Methylene with FW dips and the Formalin to sanitize
equipment since I have more than one tank. <The Meth
Blue is not necessary and perhaps overkill. It is typically used for
nitrite and ammonia toxicity. The FW dip and hyposalinity should be just
fine. More is not necessarily better when it comes to meds and
treatments. As for the formalin, as I mentioned in my previous response
it is toxic, a carcinogen, and disposal of it would not be considered
environmentally friendly. It would be better not to use it at all if you
can avoid it. You can sterilize you equipment easily by soaking or even
running it with a diluted mixture of bleach and water for a few days.
Rinse it well when done and then soak or run the equipment in freshwater
with some dechlorinator for a few days. Rinse again and set it outside
to dry in the sun for another couple of days.> Again, thank you for
any thoughts or advice on my plan. Hoping hypo works!! ~Kelly
<You're most welcome! It should work well if done correctly. Be sure to
use a refractometer when measuring the specific gravity for your
hyposaline solution. Any other method is not reliable enough for this
extreme drop in specific gravity. It is very important to have an
accurate measurement. If the specific gravity is to low the fish will
not tolerate it for the duration of the treatment and if it’s to high
the treatment will not be effective. You want to be sure your water is
1.008 to 1.010 and the treatment is usually continued for at least 4
weeks. Best of luck with your fishes, Leslie.> Have 2 fish in
hospital tank.....hypo/formalin/copper? Hi all, I have been
speed reading through much of this site since last evening, trying to
make a decision on how to treat my pygmy angel and clownfish for ich. I
noticed 2-4 spots on each fish last night that were not visible to me
as early as that same morning. I am aware that all treatments
have their own pros and cons, but am mainly concerned with the angel,
knowing she would not tolerate full doses of copper, and many opinions
on this site lean towards hypo not being a good cure.
<Are you sure this is ich/crypt? Have you tried the biological cleaner
route?> I have a stack of reference books, and a bugged out brain
from info overload. Please advise this new aquarist on the best way
to proceed. -10 gallon hospital tank (fish are in) -running
whisper filter with poly instead of carbon (good choice??) <Yes...
unless you're adding chemical treatments> -attached skimmer for
water turnover, might this help keep parameters in check or am I
dreaming? <Will, but will remove...> -should I add Selcon or
Garlic Extreme etc. to the food/water to increase immunity? <You
can> I should also mention all LFS stores in my area are closed on
Monday so I most likely will be ordering meds on line and next day
shipping them. Thanks a bunch in advance, I do not want to lose any
fish here..... forever grateful for all you do! <I'd return the
fishes to the main tank, read over the use of cleaners for now. Bob
Fenner>
Taking The War To Ich! Hi Bob, <Scott F. in
today!> This is Gulnar (the wife) reading ich FAQs on your website
and trying to come up with a plan for tomorrow. Yes, we sure had some
magic dynamic going for 14 years. Sorry we pushed it over the edge, and
ironically on the eve of getting a 120 gal. Needless to say, we returned
the LN Butterfly the next morning (over a week ago) but the damage was
done. I noticed the spots on the Sailfin Tang this morning, and
most of the fish did not eat today, so assume all the fish have ich.
This is our first encounter with ich, and I would love to give it my
best shot to save our fish which we've had for years and are obviously
very attached to. (committed to QT from now on) <A battle that you
can definitely win with some quick and decisive action! Glad that you
are committed to quarantine for the future! You won't regret embracing
this process!> Michael has started raising the temperature of the
tank today. I will do a water change and start reducing the sg gently
tomorrow. I am getting ready to set up 1 (maybe 2, to spread the
load) 10 gal. hospital tank/s with main tank water to get fish out (no
small task, as we have 100-150 lbs of live rock - there is no other bio
filter media for the last 7 years or so). <You could put sponge
filter in the display tank for several days in the hope of "colonizing"
the sponge with beneficial bacteria for filtration in your treatment
tank. However, there is a very good possibility that some medications
can wipe out significant populations of the bacteria. Frequent water
changes are a very safe bet in the "hospital" tank; just make sure that
medications are replenished to maintain a proper therapeutic dose.> I
am not very savvy about all this, as I have pretty much sat on the side
lines until recently. <Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on
things, however!> But I do not want to give up on the fish, so any
help is most appreciated. <That's why we're here!> I see that the
advise is to get all the fish out of the tank and let it go fallow for
over a month. <I am a huge proponent of this technique. It has a very
high success rate at eradicating ich from the display tank> Am I
right in assuming copper cannot be administered to the main tank because
it would kill the live rock/bio-filter/beneficial bacteria?. <It will
definitely kill many inverts, some microfauna, and may actually be
"absorbed" by the rock and sand, becoming bound up and effectively
reducing the therapeutic benefits of the medication. It is always
recommended to treat in a dedicated "hospital" tank with a bare bottom
and inert decor, such as PVC sections, etc.> IF THAT IS SO, some
specific questions: 1. Is 10 gal hospital/QT tank big enough for 6
fish for 1 month? <Really depends on the size and types of the
fishes. Frankly, a Sailfin Tang would not do well in such a small tank.
I'd either spread out the population over several tanks or other
containers (plastic trash cans and the like), or try to find a (used)
tank of a larger size, like 40-50 gallons. Even in a treatment tank, a
larger tank affords greater environmental stability.> 2. Since not
established, would 2 gal ( or more?) water change everyday keep ammonia,
nitrite, nitrate at acceptable levels? (Apologize for ignorance,
will commit to self-education after crisis) <Please, no apologies!
You're doing great! Yes, water changes done regularly will be a definite
aid in keeping the water quality up. Just be sure to regularly test for
copper concentration (if you elect to use Copper Sulphate as a
treatment) to make sure that you are maintaining a proper therapeutic
dose.> 3. Please advise if copper is the way to go in the QT tank? If
so, which brand/type and a source for overnight delivery, if LFS does
not carry. <Copper is good stuff if you follow the manufacturer's
directions carefully and test regularly. I like Mardel CopperSafe or
Cupramine by Sea Chem. Both of which can be ordered from places like
Drs. Foster & Smith, etc. However, there are some fishes (particularly
Centropyge angels, Puffers and many Tangs) which do not do well with
copper over the long term. I have never encountered difficulties with
copper, but that doesn't mean that it's foolproof, of course! If you are
concerned about Copper, perhaps a Formalin-based product would be a
better choice for you.> (Hope directions are idiot-proof). <They
are pretty good! Just remember to get a copper test kit if you go the
Copper sulphate route> 4. Is FasTest for copper a good one? Is this
for chelated or "free" or both? <I believe that this test is only for
"free" copper. Do check the Aquarium Systems (manufacturer) web site.>
Your preference? <I like the SeaChem Copper test kit, but Fastest are
excellent, and I use them, too> 5. Are "Dip test Strips" any good to
keep an eye on the QT? 5-in-1 Quick Dip strips? Ammonia Alert? <As
long as you don't need a real high degree of accuracy, I suppose that
these tests would work. I'd rather have the Fastest or SeaTest kits,
though> 6. Additionally, would fresh water dips also help? How often?
<They can be of some help; however, freshwater dips alone are not a
cure, IMO. They can help supplement other treatment techniques.
Remember, they do cause some stress for the fish, which could be
potentially problematic to a sick fish. If you are not confident with FW
dips, I'd consider the potential "down side" before attempting. All in
all, I find them to be useful if done correctly.> Sorry for the long
message. <No need to apologize!> Thanks for your help. Look
forward to your response. Please reply to both of us. Thanks again.
Gulnar <Hang in there, guys! You can do it! Regards, Scott F.>
Taking The War To Ich- The Battle Is Joined! Hi Scott, <Hello
again!> Thanks for your response. I'm so very grateful for your
point-by-point response to my long email. Thanks for all your efforts
and all this good information. <Glad to be of service...that's what
WWM is all about!> I have been at your website FAQs every minute I
get and into the night, essentially taking a crash course, and am in
info-overload, and experiencing some confusion, (To stay with Kick-Ich
or go QT). <it is a bit overwhelming...Sometimes it is okay to just
stop and take a deep breath before proceeding...> As I have not yet
taken decisive action, in the 3 days that have gone by, we started first
dose of Kick-Ich Thurs. AM (says it's reef safe), though I know you
don't agree. <I guess my biggest concern about so-called "reef-safe
medications" is that I am curious how something can target just the
Cryptocaryon parasite without doing any collateral damage to
physiologically analogous creatures in the tank. That's what worries me
about the stuff...I just don't believe in using any "medications" in the
display. Nonetheless, I respect and understand your decision to take
action...I cannot fault you at all!> We needed to do something, as it
was day 3, thought to give the fish some relief, and the QT is not set
up yet, as we have to prepare to tear the LR down to remove the fish to
the QT, filter still to arrive, etc. <Yep...Ya gotta lay the
groundwork...> Now we're Preparing to set up a QT this Saturday, but
we have no bio-filter. There are 6 fish to be treated, (all eating at
the moment). The 5-6" Sailfin Tang, which is covered the worst; the
4" Regal Angel, seems covered not as bad but eyes are cloudy; 4"
Square-Backed Anthias, Flame Angel and Blue Devil damsel don't look as
bad; and can't tell if the Sailfin (I think) Algae Blenny has ich spots
or not. <Best to assume that all fishes in a "hot" tank are ill. You
may not need to treat them, but they should be observed carefully in
isolation nonetheless.> All have to be accommodated in 55 gal QT, as
I will already be stretched keeping up with one QT. I am very anxious
about my ability to pull this off without a biofilter. The only filter
we have in the ich-ridden 55 gal display tank is the LR, which is no
good for treatment tank. <Correct. Your best allies will be (IMO)
water changes and a good sponge filter.> QT/Hospital tank elements-
your thought?: - 55 gal tank (following your advice, and coming to my
senses) - Bio-Wheel 330 with mechanical filtration, (I don't see a
sponge filter in Drs F&S catalog) <Well, the BioWheel will colonize
some bacteria as it matures. Dr. Foster and Smith do have sponge
filters...Do check their website, too.> - Visi-Therm Submersible 300W
heater - will set to maintain at 82 F day and night. Is that OK?
<Elevated temperatures are helpful to speed up the life cycle of the
causative protozoa, but do make sure that the tank is well
aerated/filtered, as the warmer water holds less dissolved oxygen.> -
PVC fittings - various sizes <Good. Inert "decor" is a great idea and
won't interfere with medication.> - 35-40 gals of water from display
tank (nitrates may be 20-40, typically are)- 15-20 gals new water, temp
and sg matched to display tank <Sounds great!> - tubing to siphon
bottom of QT for daily water change <I'm glad that you are doing
that. Frequent water changes will help as the biofilter matures in the
QT.> - Ammonia stick-on alert Am I forgetting anything?
<Nope...Sounds good> Medication at the ready - your thought?:
-Formalin, (Aquarium Products) - 16 oz. (I don't think copper is an
option, having a flame angel and SFin tang. Do you agree? <Although I
am a big fan of copper, and have used it for tangs and dwarf angels, I
would not recommend it because of the potential "collateral damage" it
can cause for these fishes. I agree with your decision to use a
formalin-based product.> -Kent Detox (Is this OK to use in case of an
ammonia spike?) <I have not used this product, but I'm wondering how
it will interact with your medication. Formalin will have a negative
effect on the biofilter. Personally, I'd arm myself with a "bacteria in
a bottle" product (like Cycle, etc.) and dose it regularly in the hopes
of keeping up with the tank's needs.> -Methylene Blue (getting it,
but probably won't use, considering down-side risk you mention)
<Actually, not too much down side, IMO. However, it is of no real effect
with Cryptocaryon...> -Coppersafe or Cupramine - get later as back up
<Hopefully, you won't need a "second round" of meds, but both are
excellent products if used as directed and copper concentration is
regularly measured.> Am I forgetting anything? <Nope. You seem to
have it wired!> Test kits FasTest Multi kit +refills - Ammonia,
Nitrite, Nitrate, pH FasTest Copper - get, if needed Am I
forgetting anything? <Again- sounds good!> Questions - Sorry for
the number of Qs: 1. We saved 20 gal from the water change yesterday
(Thurs. morning), and is currently being brought up to 80 F, no filter
yet. Will that still be good for this weekend to start the 55 gal
treatment tank? The display tank is also a 55 gal. (FOWLR). <I think
it will be fine for this purpose.> 2. Will it be OK to do another
water change within 2 days (Sat) to get another 15 -20 gals to start the
treatment tank? <I'd wait a little longer- like 3-4 days, and keep up
that interval during treatment, or as warranted.> 3. I'm afraid of
the FW dip, and you mentioned the stress may be too much for the 2 that
are the most sick. Also, I'm ignorant about PH and how to raise or lower
it in the QT and FW dip, and may not have time to learn that. Any ready
answer will help greatly. <The dip process is really not that scary,
but if you are not comfortable with the process, I don't really see a
downside to skipping it. Better to use this technique prior to
quarantining newly-received fishes.> 4. What is the down side of NOT
doing the FW/M.Blue dip? <Really not much, IMO. In theory, it can
help remove or kill some of the Cryptocaryon protozoa that are on the
fishes' bodies. However, its effectiveness as a primary theory is
questionable. I've seen some research which indicates that the necessary
duration to effect significant eradication of the protozoa would cause
the fish to expire in the process...Not a good trade off, if you ask
me!> 5. When should I start using Formalin immediately, as have read
reluctance to use meds, but SF Tang is fully covered in fine white
spots, and the regal angel's eyes are cloudy (repeating myself, sorry)
<I'd start right away, as the sooner you start, the sooner you can
discontinue the dosing. Follow manufacturer's directions to the letter
regarding dosage and duration.> 6. Is Formalin as effective as
copper? <It is, if used properly> Downside of Formalin? <It can
disrupt filtration, and like all medications, can be deadly if dosed
improperly.> How can I verify that I am maintaining the Formalin
levels prescribed? i.e. no test kit <Follow manufacturer's directions
without deviation!> 7. You mention that you have not encountered any
difficulties with copper. Are you referring to its use with Flame Angel
or Sailfin Tang? <With both. The real problem with tangs and copper
is that the copper is thought to be harmful to the digestive fauna that
these fishes harbor in their intestinal tract. If these fauna are
killed, the fish may not be able to properly digest it's food, leading
to further problems. Granted, this is usually caused by long-term
exposure to copper (several weeks...Usually longer than you need to
effect a cure, BTW), but it warrants consideration. As far as Centropyge
Angels- they are categorically sensitive to copper, with a few
exceptions. I have used copper many times on both fishes without
incident, but that does not mean that I recommend it to everyone. The
risk is there.> 8. How long/days has Formalin to be used? Haven't got
it yet, so don't know the directions. Do you know of its success rate?
<Depends on the manufacturer's recommendations and concentration. As far
as success- it can be very successful, if used as directed.> 9.
Assume I should add Formalin (1 ml to 18 gals) to new water on alternate
days as prescribed, to maintain dosage. <Good idea. Do know exactly
how much water is in the tank, so you can accurately gauge requirements>
10. Will I need to do a 5%, 10% (6 gal) or 20% (12 gal) water change
every day? <I'd go for every three or four days, as outlined above.>
11. With daily water changes, will there be need for make-up water, as
bound to be evaporation. So have to medicate make-up water with Formalin
as well? <I would. You need to maintain a proper therapeutic dose>
12. With the QT daily tests, will I need a high degree of accuracy?
Meaning, will tests strips be accurate enough? <I think that the
inexpensive strips will do the job.> 13. Are Ammonia, Nitrite,
Nitrate Tests to be done once or twice a day? <Once a day is plenty.
eventually, every other day will do.> 14. Any other daily tests to be
done for the QT? <Well, I'd mainly be concerned about the parameters
outlined above> Speaking of tests, I have not done any tests this
week, since noticing the ich. Nitrates typically are 20-40. Will this
have adverse effect on the success of the treatment? <Not to my
knowledge.> 15. Just curious, if we had a sponge in display sump
ready for QT, once you start adding copper or Formalin, would the
bio-filter die totally? If so, is there a benefit in having a "dirty"
ready sponge with this type of medication? <There would be some
potential "die off" of beneficial bacteria with formalin, but an
established sponge gives you a "jump start". Do consider replenishing
with a product like Cycle, as outlined above.> 16. Lastly, yesterday
was day 3 after we noticed the ich, but the spots have not disappeared
or diminished. I read that after 8-24 hours of the feeding stage, then
they drop to bottom, but that is not my experience. Your thoughts?
<Hard to be sure, but I suspect that they will soon.> Anxiously
waiting for your quick response. Thanks very much for your time and
attention. Gratefully, Gulnar <A pleasure, Gulnar. Take it slow
and steady- be confident, and you'll win this war! Regards, Scott F.>
Don't Dip for Ich Hi, My 30 gallon reef tank is having an
outbreak of ick. I'm pretty sure that my yellow tang brought it home.
I've read some info on how to get rid of ick. I know how to do the
freshwater dip. I have a 10 gallon tank set up as a quarantine tank. I'm
worried that if I move all of my fish to the 10 gallon tank that it
won't be big enough. I have 2 scooter blennies, 2 Percula clowns, 1
algae blenny, 1 yellow tang, 1 engineer goby, all of which are pretty
small. Do you think that it's big enough to hold so many fish? I've read
that you have to keep the tank empty for about 4 weeks to get rid of the
ick that's in the tank? Is that true? Is there anything I can do to
speed this process up? Any help would be really appreciated.
>>>Hello Heather, It's too late to quarantine. The time to
quarantine is BEFORE you introduce the parasite into your system. Now,
you have C. irritans running amuck in your system, and your job is
unfortunately much harder. Forget about freshwater dips. C. irritans is
an obligate protozoan with a life cycle (theront, Protomont, tomont and
Trophont stages) that prevents you from treating it by a simple dip of
any kind. At this point, you MUST remove all fish from you system and
let it stand for at least 4 to 5 weeks in this state. No fish. Your fish
must be treated with either hyposalinity (1.009) for 3 weeks in a
hospital tank, or a commercial medication can be used such as
"Cupramine", again in a hospital tank. Yes, the 10 gallon is too small
for this purpose. I would invest in at least one more for treating your
fish. Please read the following article, all five
parts in their entirety.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm This
will give you a good handle on this pathogen, and hopefully you will
avoid this problem in the future by quarantining your fish before
introducing them into your display. If you have any further questions
after reading the article, please feel free to drop me another line.
By the way, a 30 gallon tank is MUCH too small to keep a yellow tang (or
any tang) for very long. These fish grow fast, get rather large, and are
VERY active. 75 gallons is the minimum tank size for a yellow tang -
long term. Jim<<< Spots That Won't Go Away! Hi, <How goes
it, Michael here> My level of copper in my tank is .50 ppm. Is that
enough to treat marine ich? <Too high, I'm afraid. I would lower it
with water changes or carbon to .25 ppm> The test kit I have only
goes up to >or = to 1 ppm. Please respond quickly and thanks for the
info!! <No problem, good luck. Make sure to monitor your water quality
while dosing. M. Maddox> My level has been that high for weeks and
the 2 spots on the tang and the 4 on the blue damsel are not going away.
Why is that? Maybe the spots on the damsel are scales? They kind of
stick up Thanks thanks <Scott F. following up. Mike was
right on the mark. Maintain proper copper levels for the manufacturer's
recommended duration. As far as the spots are concerned, you might be
dealing with something that copper is not effective at treating. Rather
than continuous exposure to copper, I'd probably discontinue using it
for a while. Observe the fish carefully for a few days
"post-copper"...See if they are improving, declining, or maintaining
their current status. Could very well be some sort of scale distortion
or other non-infectious condition on the fish. Be alert...Regards, Scott
F.> Formalin with Sensitive Fishes Hello WetWeb crew
person who takes this question : ) <Hello! Ryan with your
question today> I’ve made it a habit to peruse this most
awesome website almost everyday as new challenges arise in my marine
animal keeping odyssey. <Phenomenal thing to say!> Thank you all for
your much needed knowledge, time and caring for our piscine critters and
their sometimes bewildered owners. <Sometimes? Just joshing> I
am seeking advise on treating a pretty sensitive flasher wrasse (not
sure if P. carpenteri or p. filamentosus) for a rather persistent case
of crypt.. He is in a 15 gallon bare bottomed, PVC pipe quarantine tank
along with 5 Stonogobiops gobies. PH has remained at 8.0. I
tried a fresh-water dip on the wrasse with adjusted ph to 8.0 and temp
around 78f, and the wrasse went stiff and flared, lost color and dropped
to the bottom and lay there within 5 seconds. He didn’t move when I
scooped him out and put him back in the quarantine where he spent twenty
four hours breathing heavy and lying in a corner before he recovered.
<Doesn't sound too promising> In fact, I believe I was more out
stressed by how he reacted. Am not inclined to do that again. <And
likely not necessary, if the proper medications are added to the
quarantine setup.> Decided to treat with Kordon Formalin-3
because it seemed this was the better choice for a sensitive fish. <Yes,
I was about to suggest it> The biological filter crashed after first
treatment. <Predictably> Have been dosing according to directions on
bottle for 7 days at the 10ppm. Temp. is at 80f. Because of the
filter crash I have been doing 30-50% water changes a day while
siphoning bottom, and dosing new change water only. <In QT, 30% daily
water changes are almost mandatory! In a perfect world, you shouldn't
rely on the bacterial filter in this scenario> Also am adding Seachem
Prime to help protect the fishes from the unfortunately present
ammonia and high nitrites. <OK> Throughout this, so far, 7day ordeal,
the wrasse and gobies having been eating (feeding sparingly) with a
ravenous appetite. On 7th day (AAAAAAARGH!, my back is killing
me), about 3 new Ich spots appeared on the wrasse’s dorsal fin. <It's
time for copper> My questions come from total lack of
experience in treating marine fish....would you recommend I stay with
the Formalin-3 at double the recent dose to 20ppm (which is what I've
begun to do as I wait for a response)? and observe if it was simply that
the dose was simply not strong enough? Or do you recommend using the
heavier duty formalin (staying with the same type of chemical) for ponds
from a company like Aquarium Products instead (I have to order off the
internet)? Or go on to Coppersafe which I worry will maybe pound the
wrasse and gobies more than the formalin. Is switching medications way
too detrimental to the fishes health? <Run carbon, and in two days with
water changes, start copper treatment. Buy a copper test, you'll need
it to get the treatment levels correct.> I am trying to be as
conscientious a caretaker as possible and absolutely appreciate the time
taken by you to consider and answer my questions. <Yes, and
overcoming ICH is the nastiest business in the hobby! Be patient,
you're on your way to curing this ailment! Feel free to write back if
the copper doesn't do the trick. Cheers, Ryan> Thank you so much, once
again, Esmeralda Treating Sick Fish In The Display Tank Is
A Better Way? Hey guys, <Scott F here today> Bob and Tony
have some great books and you have a great website and I agree 100% that
a QT tank is essential to having a successful reef tank, but the advice
you give about needing a QT tank for a fish-only-tank (FOT) is
ridiculous. <Really? Ask the next aquarist that you meet from The
Shedd Aquarium, Waikiki Aquarium, The National Aquarium, etc. if they
feel that it's "ridiculous" to quarantine fishes in their fish only
systems...I think that they will tell you otherwise. Quarantine is a
standard procedure at all public aquariums, and should be part of every
hobbyist's set of procedures. In my humble opinion, it's just something
that you do, like changing water, etc. All part of the "price" of this
hobby.> If you have a FOT and it suffers an ick outbreak YOU TREAT
THE WHOLE SYSTEM! Why, because all the fish have ick and the tank has
ick. I read on your website a guy with a 90 gallon tank with 6 fish and
you told him to pull all the fish which were probably big in QT tanks
and let the entire 90-gallon system go fallow. <That was probably me.
I still believe in that technique. Is it hard- yes! Is it disruptive?
Sure! But it works. The "easy" way is NOT always the best way!> This
advice borders on criminally insane! <Frankly, your point of view
on this matter borders on criminally ignorant.> I can see this poor
guy who probably works a 40+ hour week, has a wife and kids and now
spending precious time and money running around setting up multiple QT
tanks all over his house (he would probably need at least 2-20 gallon
tanks) and siphoning them daily, etc.. for the next month for no logical
reason. <Gee...I'm no different than anyone else: I work a 40 plus
hour week, have a "significant other", two dogs, a mortgage payment,
assist on WWM, and I still treat my sick fishes in this manner. Being
"busy" is no excuse for not giving our animals the best possible care,
as I am sure you are aware. The fish didn't choose us...We chose them.
This is where I am coming from. Of course, I believe in quarantine of
all new arrivals prior to placing them in my tanks, which I suppose is
also a waste of time by your standards. I mean, it might entail buying
an extra heater, extra tank, and another couple of minutes a day. Yep-
just throw your new fish right in the tank, it's quicker, right? And
don't bother feeding them, because there must be enough natural food in
the tank to sustain them, and if you feed, you might have to change
water once in a while...C'mon. Think about it for a bit.> By using
your advice, he stands a much higher chance of losing the fish! All
he needed to do was treat his FOT with Copper and after 30 days start
doing heavier water changes to remove the Copper. <Hmm... what if you
are treating fishes such as Centropyge angels, some tangs, and other
species sensitive to copper? Do you just net them out and leave everyone
else in the display while you "nuke" it with copper or Formalin? Oh,
wait, that takes too much time, right? Another major concern I have with
this "treat in the display" philosophy is that it encourages hobbyists
to look to so-called "reef safe remedies" and other approaches of
questionable value.> You argue that the copper ruins the gravel, dead
rock, live rock (for a FOT) and decorations by absorbing the Copper.
<Yes, it can...But by the same token, it is much more difficult to
maintain a proper therapeutic copper level in a tank filled with rock
and sand. And, as you know, it is very important to maintain a proper
level of copper to assure an effective treatment.> I agree, ahhhhh,
SO WHAT! Just don't ever use any of it in a reef tank anytime in the
near future or better yet ever. <And no one EVER switches over to
reef tanks, right? Why develop these habits when you won't be able to
use them in a reef or invert system...?> My mother says keep it
simple stupid and in this case you are making this "hobby" very
difficult for a lot of people with advice like this. < I agree with
keeping things simple. And, you are certainly entitled to your opinion
on this, but I respectfully disagree. Steps such as "fallowing" a tank
and quarantine ARE easier. And, quite frankly- no one ever said that the
husbandry of animals captured from the most stable environment on earth
and subjected to a variety of hardships from the reef to your store is
easy. The hobby requires effort, observation, and research. When we
render advice on WWM, it is from our experience; what works for us. You
often see us state things like "..This is what I would do" or "...In my
opinion.." All advice should be taken with a grain of salt. What we are
trying to do at WWM is provide hobbyists with objective (well, usually!)
advice that helps them to develop conscientious husbandry techniques.
That's our mission, and I will continue to render the best advice that I
can based on my experience- what I know will work for the largest number
of people. To give our readers anything less would be an insult, and a
profound disservice to the hobby and animals that we all love. Sorry,
I really do love your website, but this was just horrible advice. I
feel bad for this poor guy. Nathan <Nathan, I don't like to get into
sparring matches with our readers, and I apologize in advance if I am
being disrespectful! However, you need to be a bit more open-minded
here. I'm sure that you are a talented and compassionate hobbyist, and
it's a good thing that you state your views here. I simply think that
you are not looking at the big picture here, and need to look at things
from a different perspective. I wish you continued success in your hobby
endeavors. Regards, Scott F.> Ich Woes (8/4/04) Six
months ago I upgraded my Marine tank to 85 gal. I had 2 clowns and a
Majestic Angel. Everyone was doing great until I purchased a powder blue
tang. <Ich city. Did you not quarantine for 4 weeks first?> Within weeks
the entire tank was infected with ich. I tried fresh water dips to no
avail. Although the fish appeared a little better after the dip, by the
next day they were covered with parasites again. (Why dip when the tank
is infested with ich?) <Which is why I favor removal to QT to treat
there.> I even tried freshwater dip on my angel and put him in my old
(26Gal) tank knowing that tank was parasite free but the dip DID NOT
kill the parasites and guess what... the 26 gal tank now is infested
with the disease. This tanks only other resident, my little cowfish,
died a week later) My question, how do I rid my tanks of this problem?
<6-8 weeks of no fish. All of the answers you seek are in the ich
articles and FAQs. Take the time to read them and you will be
well-rewarded. You may also want to read Steven Pro's excellent ich
articles that start here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm> There are no
fish left. I raised the temp to 84 and lowered the salinity to l.012.
Will I destroy my biological filter leaving it this way? <No, but
inverts may be at risk.> How long should I wait before reintroducing
fish to my tank? <Minimum six weeks, eight even better. For 4 of those
weeks, your first new fish can be in quarantine.> Any advice is greatly
appreciated! <BTW, powder blues and majestics are both rather difficult
to keep and grow too big for your tank. Consider more appropriate fish.>
Thanks, Carol <Hope this helps, Steve Allen>
Staying The
Course...(Ich Treatment) Hello Crew! <Hi there! Scott F. with
you today!> If you don't mind, I would like to update and ask a
question. I have positively ID'd my tang as having Cryptocaryon. That
was a few weeks ago. I tried hyposalinity at 1.009 for approx. 2weeks,
but found it to be ineffective. Rather than continuing (FOWLR) I
decided to bite the bullet and separated my fish into a QT tank. I have
been treating with Copper Sulfate at .25ppm. After 1-2 days, all signs
of ich disappeared. It has been 11 days since I started the copper
treatment. I had been running the FOWLR tank at low salinity during
this time (11 days at approx 85-86F) and slowly raising salinity back to
normal (no fish in it). I would like to ask your suggestion for
returning my fish to the main tank-when is it safe-(I have read life
cycle of Cryptocaryon is 10 days, but others say possible 30 days-is
this possible) and whether it is safe to discontinue copper treatment in
2-3 days (as directions on package state). Thank you very very much for
all your help. Jeff <Well, Jeff, you don't need to keep the
copper concentration in the treatment tank any longer than the
manufacturer recommends (usually around 14-21 days). I'd keep all of the
fishes out of the main tank for a full month, or longer, as dormant
Cryptocaryon parasites can strike when the fishes return...No sense
rushing things here...Just follow through on the treatment, and keep the
newly-cured fishes in the copper-free hospital tank for a couple of more
weeks, and you'll be fine! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
Another Ich Battle... I have a 54 gallon saltwater corner tank
that I lost 3 fish to Ich in about 6 weeks ago. I dosed my tank with
copper before I lost them ......but I waited too long to treat ( I am a
novice). <All part of the learning curve...Don't be too hard on
yourself> My question to you is...........the tank sat empty of fish
for about 5 weeks and I tested the copper level it is below efficacy
level at about .1 .....I just bought a Lemonpeel angel 2 days ago and it
looks like one fin is getting white spots on it. He's still eating
aggressively but occasionally scratches on a rock. So tonight I dose my
54 gallon with about 50 drops of copper and turned my skimmer off. I
don't have a copper test kit. <You must check for copper whenever you
use it, or you will not be able to maintain a therapeutic dose, or you
may even overdose> I will get one tomorrow........but I know you have
to catch Ich really quick and I don't want to overdose or underdose my
fish before I can get a kit. <Exactly!> With a little copper in
the tank, and the copper I put in tonight should I wait till I test
tomorrow........to put more in, also is it safe to keep my skimmer off
for 3 weeks to keep copper level up. <I would not add any more copper
until you can test for it. Also, you really don't want to treat in the
display tank. With all of the substrate, etc., it becomes very difficult
to maintain a proper level in the tank. s far as the skimmer is
concerned, I'd keep it on...But, as I said before- I would not treat in
the display!> I don't want nitrate levels too high and have to do a
water change before the copper kills the ich. I have live rock by the
way and it is a marine tank only. I know the rock is pretty much
sacrificed by the copper. <Yep> I just want to do right by this
fish and don't want to get discouraged. Thanks and I appreciate any help
I can get. <Well, I'd back-pedal a bit and do all that I can to
eliminate copper from the display tank (Poly Filter or CupriSorb excel
at removing copper). Then, Id let this tank sit without fishes (or
copper) for another 6 weeks, performing regular water changes and other
maintenance as usual. The fish should be treated in a separate tank or
Rubbermaid container with copper or formalin, per the manufacturer's
recommendations. Read all about this "two front" approach to ich
treatment on the WWM site. You can beat it! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
Alternative Therapies For Ich (1/27/04) Greetings WWM Crew!
<To You as Well. Steve Allen here.> I seem to have gotten into an
Ich mess despite my best attempts at quarantine. Here is my current
situation - I have a 150 fish only system housing 5 fish - a damsel, a
striped puffer and a longhorn cowfish from another tank in my house, a
yellow tang and a juvenile queen angel, both recent purchases. The tang
entered near the end of cycling, the angel shortly there after, followed
last week by the three others. Nitrites and Ammonia are zero, Nitrate
just barely registers. I've never seen Ich in my old tank, and I
guess I wrongly assumed that I was okay... and of course failed to
quarantine the last 3 fish. <Live and learn.> Yesterday I noticed a
couple white spots on the fins of the puffer and cowfish, and they sure
look like Ich. <You are almost certainly right.> I'm now in the
situation of having 5 large-ish fish to house and treat. with only a 15
gallon hospital / QT tank (my secondary QT is also my water mixing trash
can). I definitely can't house 5 separately, and I think the stability
of the big tank is best for the fish. <Big Rubbermaid tubs with
biofiltration, circulation & heat work well.> I travel quite a bit
for work, and don't have anyone I trust to do daily water changes, etc -
my girlfriend has learned to feed correctly, but that's about it.
<Understood.> I know you're against treating in the main tank, but
I guess I'm looking for some alternatives. I like the idea of
hyposalinity, but I've found a lot of conflicting information on the
subject. <Many opinions out there.> I've already started to lower the
salinity <Do you have inverts?--could be dangerous to them>, and I'm now
running the UV sterilizer 24 hours a day. <May kill the free-swimming
organisms if flow rate correct. The theory then is that if few are able
to get to your fish, most eventually die for lack of a host.> I'm also
tempted to try copper. <Resist this with all your strength. This will
be nothing but trouble and disaster. Will kill your biofilter and
inverts. May kill your cowfish and thus wipe out your tank. Will ruin
your sand and rock, causing them to leach toxic copper forever. Should
only be used in QT.> What exactly are the detrimental effects of doing
these in my main system? <As above.> Am I just wasting time, or is there
viable "if-you-have-to-do-it" alternative? <The QT/fallow method is the
only proven way.> I'd love to run fallow for weeks, but I just don't
think my fish would make it. <I understand your predicament. I can tell
you that I had a few spots of ich on two fish in my tank last July. I
was very careful about water quality and ran UV for several weeks. I
have not seen a spot of ich on any fish since. A word of warning: ich
will "disappear" after a few days and then may come back a hundred fold
a couple of weeks later when the next, bigger generation is ready to
leave the substrate and infest fish. It may then be too late to save
your fish. That's the risk you take if you do not immediately treat
aggressively. You have to weigh the factors and decide what's best for
your situation. There was a good article by Scott Michael in Aquarium
USA 2004. You should be able to find this at Petco or PetSmart. Advanced
Aquarist Online is running a good series of articles right now too.
Unfortunately, this month's is only number 3 of 5. Check here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/toc.htm> Many
Thanks, Dave <Hope this helps.> A Noble Experiment (Ich
Treatment) About how big," in microns preferably", is the free
swimming stage or tomont stage of these protozoa? <Anywhere from
60-370 microns in size> Can they be filtered out effectively? <In
the free-swimming stages, it is theoretically possible, but probably
rather difficult, because the density of the protozoans in the water
column is rather sparse. Usually easier to siphon out the tomonts after
12-18 hours, when they create a cyst and attach to substrates. Using
daily 100% water changes, siphoning from the bottom in a bare tank may
allow a successful cure without using medications, as you are probably
aware> I have a 20 gallon QT tank with a piece of PVC pipe and two
smooth round rocks about eight inches in diameter without any bottom
substrate I.E. gravel that I am experimenting with. <Good> I'm
trying to eliminate these critters by using a 1/12 hp Little Giant pump
linked to a filter canister. I am also implementing a 30 watt double
helix UV sterilizer with a flow rate of about 1 1/2 gallons per minute.
<Interesting...> Hyposalinity has been established at a reading of
1.008 and I am also using light manipulation. I have set the temp to 82
degrees," I realize only the one type of protozoa will be affected". I
plan on getting a protein skimmer before I start. The tank has been
established for about 2 months now with a whisper 30-60 bio-filter that
was established by live rock. I was basically wondering what size
filter I should try and use in the canister or if I'm just wasting my
time and use it for extra filtration? <Not a waste of time, but you'd
want to go with a micron sleeve of some sort> I plan to go to the LFS
and buy one of the most infested damsels and try to cure then return it
if it gets better or he might just become the local in my QT tank? Just
a thought. If this doesn't work I will just let the tank go fallow for
a month or so, I've got nothing but time. <Interesting and noble
idea...ell worth the experiment> That's my new saying after I failed
so miserably on my first attempt at saltwater. Just wanted to let you
guy's know, if it wasn't for your site I would have already given up on
keeping saltwater fish.. Thanks again. <I like your expression...Do
take your time and carefully record your results. I wish you luck on
your experiment. Regards, Scott F.> Ick on my
shark - How to treat First, thank you for taking the time to
help us hobbyist. The wealth of information you guys share is amazing.
My situation: I have a 110 gal FOWLR (and fine grain sand) DAS
tank/filter/skimmer housing a 4" dogface puffer, 5" antennata lionfish,
and a 7" banded cat shark (I know this tank is too small to keep the
shark for long, <Do monitor nitrogenous waste content as well
(ammonia...) as the Dutch Aquarium Systems filters are puny, inconstant>
plans for the near future include a custom 12' 350-400 gallon tank built
into my living room wall). My last addition to the tank was a 4"
Porkfish. My problem: Everything went fine for about 2 months
then all of the sudden Ick broke out (the day before I left town for a
week I noticed it). When I returned the Porkfish was very sick and died
a couple days later. My puffer is also ill now. He has taken to swimming
directly in front of a powerhead - I guess it is kind of like being
rubbed without being scratched by the rock - really a neat behavior but
I would rather have never witnessed it. My shark is showing a handful of
Ick spots. The lion is fine. I have lowered the SG to just under 1.018
which has helped but not cured the problem. <It won't> It seems
like they are not getting worse but they are not getting better. I
assume a lot of the parasites are dying due to the SG but the stronger
ones are living to attach to a host. <A good way to put
this> Instead of a massive infection killing my puffer I am afraid
of the cumulative impact they are having on his gills. If I don't get
this treated I am going to have a puffer with emphysema. All parameters
(pH, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia....) are good. Whether I move the fish to
a treatment "tank" or treat in the main tank - what medication can I
use? I am afraid CopperSafe will kill my shark. I have Paragon II but I
do not know enough about it to use it just yet. What can I do? Should I
go lower on the SG, around 1.015? Thanks <You might have success
with a combination of elevated temperature (to the mid 80's F.) and the
administration of Quinine Hydrochloride solution... sold still... and
used as an anti-protozoal with some fishes.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-27,GGLD:en&q=quinine+hydrochloride+fish+disease&spell=1
This is a treatment I have used with success with juvenile sharks...
many years ago... as a consultant to public aquariums. Bob Fenner>
A rainbow of colors to treat ich... blue, green or copper Hello
Bob! Thank you for your very informative articles. I'm new to marine
tanks. I have two saltwater tanks; one 55 gallon and a 10 gallon
quarantine tank (I'm at work but will send the other stats later). The
fish in the small tank just came down with ich. Should I remove live
rock and hermit crabs before performing a copper treatment on the fish?
<... you will have to> If so, I don't want to chance contaminating
the big tank by transferring the hermit crabs and live rock to that
tank, but am not sure how to store them while quarantine tank is being
treated. <You... need another tank> Also, I went to the fish store
and they gave me a copper treatment kit, copper test kit, and "ich
Attack" from Kordon (it’s positioned as being “100% organic and safe for
reef and live rock aquariums”). Do you know if the latter works very
well? <I do not. But, the owner of the company, Bob Rofen is not a
fakir... I am very curious to know how the product singles out the one
type of protozoan though.> I also have some hermit crabs in the
larger tank and am now worried that they might spread ich to the
clownfish. Should I treat the hermit crabs for a fresh water dip or take
all of the hermit crabs back to the store because they are suspects for
carrying ich? <Do not freshwater dip the Hermits... or any
invertebrate marine animal...> I just finished reading "Fighting the
war on two fronts" and wanted to pick up some Methylene blue to treat
all of the hermit crabs in the big tank (and then maybe put some of them
back or take them back to the store). <Mmm, better by far to take the
tact of isolating possible vectors... in the absence of fish hosts, the
Cryptocaryon will die out or lose much of its virulence> At lunch
(and also before reading your article is when I bought the Ich attack. I
also have Rid Ich at home and noticed that it contains formaldehyde and
chloride salt of malachite green (but strangely enough the water turns
BLUE). <Yes... this is the Malachite> Also, I’ve read that poor
water quality, stressed fish or a sudden change in water temperature
could trigger an ich outbreak. <Yes... though marine white spot is
far more often "imported" with new livestock than triggered in place>
Do you have an opinion about which one may have been the biggest
culprit? I’d like to narrow my focus to see what I need to look for in
the future to prevent something like this from happening again. <No
way to tell given the information you have provided. Bob Fenner>
Re: a rainbow of colors to treat ich... blue, green or copper
Hello Dr. Bob, <Just Bob> Thanks for being so kind and sharing
your wealth of knowledge to help people that you don’t even know. I saw
your name on another site as a reference and thought it was cool because
you just personally responded to a message that I sent you just
yesterday. <Mmm, wouldn't you?> So, here is what’s gone on since
my last message: Quarantine tank: 10 gallons Emperor filter fit
for a 50 gallon tank Underwater heater Live rock and gravel
Temp 79 degrees (raising it from 75.9) Salinity is about 1.021 (I
think but will have to get back to you because I forgot to write it
down) Two damsels with ich (discovered yesterday morning). We
treated the fish to a freshwater bath last night, but it didn’t last for
very long. The small fish immediately fell to the bottom of the
container and rolled onto its side when we put him into the freshwater
dip. We took him out right away because he was so stressed. The larger
fish we left in for almost a minute before he started thrashing around
and hitting his head. <Happens... you did pH adjust the water... it
was about the same temp.?> Initially, we prepared a Methylene Blue
dip, but decided against it when we read conflicting information between
the manufacturer’s directions and your treatment instructions. Your
instructions said to turn the water dark blue and leave the fish in for
about two minutes, but the container recommended a larger dosage and
said in bold letters that the fish was to remain in the Methylene dip
for no more than ten seconds. <Mmm, either one... Methylene Blue is
VERY safe... in fact it's administered intravenously into "blue babies"
in some cases, places... where folks don't go for blood mixing> I
also was hesitant because I didn’t want to risk squishing the black fish
because I wasn’t able to really see them in the dark blue water and
that’s why we pulled the plug on the Methylene dip. Should we try to dip
the fish again? If the answer is yes, should we follow your instructions
for the Methylene dip or the manufacturer’s? <Either way... > We
did NOT treat the Quarantine tank with copper, but instead used Rid-Ich
because I treated them with a dose before I left for work in the morning
and the bottle recommended against using multiple treatments at the same
time. I also removed all of the hermit crabs and took them back to the
store. <Mmm, you need to do a bit of re-studying... the rock and
substrate in the treatment/quarantine tank? No good... the copper kills
the life there, and the material absorbs the copper.> A bigger
problem surfaced this morning when we noticed that one of the clown fish
had two white spots on its body. He is located in the main tank, 55
gallons, 78 degrees with two clowns, five hermit crabs, two damsels and
some live rock. A friend of ours recommended that we purchase a UV
sterilizer so, I hopped online and bought two Turbo Twist 3X UV
Sterilizers from Drs. Foster and Smith. I read that you CANNOT treat the
fish with copper and a UV sterilizer at the same time because the UV
sterilizer rips some of the copper molecules apart and makes the copper
dosage deadly; it also read that you aren’t supposed to use it with
other treatments. With regards to “other treatments” I’m assuming that
they are referring to the Rid-Ich medicine. Do you know if the UV
sterilizer can be used with Rid-Ich? <Can be> So, we’re not sure
what to do now. Are we supposed to pull out all of the fish from the
large tank and surely condemn them to death by moving them into a
smaller quarantine tank with the damsels that are covered by ich? <If
this is the only treatment system available... yes... you might throw in
some chemically inert decor... like PVC parts, pipe... for habitat...
need to remove the LR, sand...> If so, would you recommend that we
strip out the rock and gravel from the quarantine tank and turn it into
a copper treatment tank or simply continue with the Rid-Ich? Or should
we move forward with a third tank and make it a bare bottomed copper
treatment tank? Also, what would happen if we left the four fish in the
larger tank (including the clown fish with one or two white spots on
it), hooked up the UV sterilizer to it and did NOT treat it with any
medications? <... this "going back and forth" with questions won't
work... too much lag time... Again, if you're interested in saving your
livestock, please read on WWM, elsewhere, talk with others... and make
up your own mind re a treatment protocol... Now, as this parasite can
proceed quickly...> Thanks in advance for all of your help. It just
gets difficult because there are so many differing opinions when you
start investigating diseases and treatments online or asking friends &
pet store employees for their opinions. Regards, Tiffany
<Tiffany... don't become confused... ask point blank why the people who
are telling you believe (the science, fact) what they are telling
you...> FYI: I returned the 100% organic product because another fish
store person said that, “it didn’t work”. I guess he tried it before and
didn’t have success with the product. No offence to your friend.
<None taken... I have known Dr. Rofen in the trade for more than thirty
years... Kordon/Novalek/Oasis... the ARCS... are venerable companies...
but even the best have some clunkers now and then. Bob Fenner>
Help me Save my Coral Beauty Hi guys... <Ceri> Well I just
bought a Coral Beauty Angel, he looked OK in the LFS but the next day
after bringing him home he developed white patches on the fins and I am
starting to see small white specs on him. <Man, this is the year for
parasitic troubles!> Not many just a few. So, I read, read, and read
some more on your site. This is what I have done. Good news, I put him
directly in a QT tank. I have raised temperature to 80 and lower
salinity for hyposalinity conditions. I have also ordered some Methylene
Blue and CopperSafe. <Good moves> So, here are the questions. How
many times do I perform the fresh water dip with Methylene Blue? Only
once? <Once (on the way into QT) is best> Once a day? Leave him
there for 3-5 minutes? <About right...> How do I know if this
stresses the fish? <Observation... that the fish isn't laying over
"too much", breathing "too hard"...> Also, won't putting him back
into the affected water re-start the ich? <Bingo, yes... the reason
the dip/bath is best performed en route...> Should I start the copper
treatment as soon as he is returned to tank? <ASAP> If he looks
better I understand I need to stop the copper treatment through water
changes. <Actually, no... you need to keep a physiological dose of
free/cupric ion present for the two week treatment period... you may
well not see the "ich itself"...> I then want to bring water to the
same conditions as my main tank. I am worried that lowering the
temperature will bring Ich back, is that possible? <Not if it is not
present...> Please advise, I want to save this guy. So far, he still
looks good, but not eating as well today. Poor thing has no algae to eat
in the QT, hope this is OK. I have never done a fresh water dip before,
I am probably more stressed than the fish! Thanks...Ceri.
<Likely... these baths are not of themselves that much strain on the
fish... the netting is far worse... Bob Fenner><<Wish I would have
emphasized that once the Cryptocaryon was off the hosts, it would not
"magically" reappear like freshwater (Ichthyophthiriasis) ich. RMF>>
Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty Thanks Bob, really appreciate
your help. Since catching this guy will be stressful...and I would have
to put him back into the same QT, should I skip the dip and go for the
copper only? <Yes, I would. Thanks for the clarification> (yes
lessoned learned, will dip all new first FIRST) Copper hasn't arrived
yet, I will start as soon as it does. Do I keep the water at
hyposalinity during the copper, or can I bring it back to normal?
Thanks...Ceri <Can leave low if the fishes being treated are not
"too" stressed already... a balance my friend. Bob Fenner>
Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty, ich Great, thanks Bob. I will
slowly bring water conditions back up to normal. I don't want to fight
monitoring copper and hyposalinity tank at the same time. My QT has live
rock and substrate it in (thanks to LFS who suckered me into it). I will
remove before starting copper treatment as I understand it makes an
accurate reading difficult <Actually will quickly absorb the copper>
(from the FAQs on your site !!) and will ease in removal of these nasty
bugs !! Thanks for the support. Ceri. <You're welcome my friend.
Steady on. Bob Fenner> Coral Beauty/Copper - Follow-up Hi
guys...well I am sad to say my Coral Beauty has taken a turn for the
worse. I started copper and now he looks TERRIBLE. Appears as if there
are no white specs on him, but there is a large white fuzzy patch, that
is growing, right next to his, well, butt. Nitrite and Ammonia levels
have spiked through the roof. I did a 20% water change Fri, 50% water
change yesterday, and 50% water change today and levels are still high.
I have decided to stop the copper and just focus on getting the water to
normal. I added PolyFilter... <Good> ... and added a new filter
cartridge in the Emperor 280. Question is, what happened to this poor
fish? Does copper kill the bacterial function of the filter? <Yes,
especially at the .25 level I see below> I am desperate and just
don't know what is wrong with him, or how to help. Please advise. The
directions on the bottle are not clear, and the copper test kit always
read over .25 of copper in the tank, even after water changes.
<Copper is an effective method of killing diseases if used properly and
with care. For angels, the copper level shouldn't exceed .15, .25 is
dangerous. Are you using an ionic copper or chelated, or which
brand/type are you using?> Was the treatment done in quarantine in a
rock/substrate free tank? Also, since I was reading your site last
night, I have a question for my main 65 gal tank. I have 75 lbs live
rock, Fluval 404 with carbon and bio-material, Emperor 400 bio-wheel,
and a Prism skimmer. Should remove the bio-filter material from the
Fluval 404? Is this adding nitrates? <I don't believe you have enough
live rock to remove the bio material. Yes the rings can increase nitrate
slightly.> Also the Fluval is adding tons of tiny bubbles in the
tank, I was thinking of replacing it with a Eheim Wet/Dry canister
filter. Is this a good choice? <There are better ways for less $.
Even though the Prizm is rated for a tank your size, it is not that
efficient to handle it. I use one myself on my 29 mini reef. Just great
for that.> If it is, I should not use the bio- material for that as
well since I have live rock - right? < If it were me, I would
seriously think about adding a hang-on refugium with a live sand base
and add some Caulerpa. This will help control the nitrates and nuisance
algae. You will need to buy a small PC fixture to place over the
refugium. CPR is coming out with their hang-on that includes a built-in
skimmer. This would add to the skimming efficiency of your system.>
Question 3 - sorry - full of uncertainty today. I will do a freshwater
dip with Meth. Blue for each new fish from now on BUT - the directions
say to leave the fish only in the dip 10 seconds. I have read that the
fish should be there 3 to 5 MINUTES. Which one is correct? And to be
safe, it is good to dip when moving from the QT to the main tank just as
an extra precaution? What is the correct concentration of blue to use?
<I'd follow info on the bottle. Here is a link on disease
prevention that has info on FW dipping.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm. James (Salty Dog)>
Coral Beauty/Copper Follow-up, Doesn't Look Good.. Thanks for
quick reply. Sorry to say, Coral Beauty basically dead. On it's side
breathing very hard, I added water, and some of the bio-material from my
main tank to QT tank, but afraid it is too late. Yes the QT is
rock and substrate free (well there is a teeny bit on the bottom since I
removed existing substrate before treatment.) I used 7ml of CopperSafe
for 10 gal tank, per directions. I feel terrible, I just killed this
innocent fish. I really want to be sure this does not happen again.
Directions said to leave in the copper filter, was that a good idea?
<Ceri, usually when a fish gets that bad, copper will just finish it
off. It' very important to treat right at the onset of the disease. If
the directions say to leave the carbon in place, then that's what I'd
do. Sorry. James (Salty Dog)> Treating Ick On A Touchy
Fish Hi Bob and Crew, <Scott F. checking in tonight> I am
writing to you because I have a Mandarin dragonette that seems to have
fallen victim to a case of Ick that has already claimed the life of a
Kole tang in my 72 Gallon Reef tank. I fear that the Ick is preventing
"Manny" from foraging for food and he is starting to really feel the
effects of this parasitic disease. I am not sure if I should treat him
as I would another fish of take exception to the fact that he is
extremely delicate and only feeds on a diet of copepods and
amphipods. What steps would you take in order to rid him of the Ick
parasite? Any help or advice you could give me would be greatly
appreciated in this matter. I am thinking of treating him with
Methyl-Blue in a small quarantine tank. Is this the best course of
action or would this do more harm than good? <Well, Methylene Blue is
really better as an anti-bacterial, and would probably have little
effect on a parasitic disease such as ick. However, if you're leery (and
rightfully so!) about subjecting an otherwise touchy fish to aggressive
medications, then you might want to utilize hyposalinity in the
treatment tank. I am not a big fan of this technique, but I have
utilized it with delicate fishes with some degree of success. Do read up
on this technique on the WWM site> I got him as a rescue out of a
barren 10 gallon tank from a friend at my LFS. I would do anything I can
to save him, as he is a really beautiful fish. Any help is appreciated -
thanks. Jason <Well, Jason- I think that you can save him, but it
will take pretty quick action on your part...Get that hospital tank up
and running, and start treatment ASAP...Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
A New Trick Against An Old Parasite? (Another Possible Ich Cure)
Hi, I was reading through the FAQ's on ich and came across a reply to
someone's question by Anthony that stated the following.... "No
guarantee in a tank with sand or rock (more freq copper and tests are
need daily to keep levels therapeutic because sand and rock keep
absorbing it further...Eeek! In a bare bottomed aquarium, common Ich can
be cured simply by siphoning the tomites/larvae off of the bottom for
eight consecutive days. Ich cure that simple" <It is!> If all I
have to do is put my fish in bare bottom aquarium (which they are in
already) and siphon the bottom for 8 consecutive days why should I mess
with copper? If I'm reading this right, I guess the theory here is that
eventually all parasites become "breeder" cysts and fall to the bottom
of the aquarium so if you keep siphoning them out the will eventually be
gone?? <Yep> Sounds to good to be true. Any thoughts on this?
<No- it isn't too good to be true, actually... It's not too well known
to most hobbyists, however. I've discussed this technique/principle with
Anthony before, and there is very legitimate science behind this
technique...It will work...Now, it's hard to guarantee 100%
effectiveness with any disease, but the thought behind this (as you
more-or-less correctly surmised) is that you will get the cysts in their
"dormant" stage if you siphon daily...Sort of analogous to the "fallow
tank" technique, but instead of depriving the parasites their hosts,
you're physically removing them from the fishes' immediate environment
(i.e.; the treatment tank) as they drop off of the fishes...But you need
to be very thorough, and absolutely diligent...Copper is commonly used
to treat Cryptocaryon, because the parasite simply cannot survive
exposure to it...Of course, there is the issue of "collateral damage"
caused by copper...It must be administered in an exacting manner.
However, for most hobbyists, the copper technique is a more predictable
technique. Remember, however, that even using this technique- you need
to let the display tank run fallow for at least a month, to address the
parasite population there.> Thanks, Angelo <Well, Angelo, sounds
like we may need to discuss this technique a bit further in a future
article...Right, Anthony? Good luck with your efforts! Regards, Scott F>
Porcupine puffer with ich (08/28/03) <Hi! Ananda here tonight...>
I have been reading your puffer FAQs.. but yet to find any help for my
problem. I have an 80 gallon tank w/a porcupine puffer fish, a lionfish,
a trigger fish and a yellow tang (the latter have been moved to a
non-infected tank). my puffer has had ich for about two weeks
now...other than the obvious visible symptoms, and heavy breathing and
sometimes twitch- like movements he is eating and functioning fine.
<So you have just the puffer in the 80 gallon tank? I would put him in
his own hospital tank and let the display go fallow for at least a
month.> After calling my local fish store as advised I turned up the
heat to around 82 degrees, kept the lights off and have done a few water
changes. The levels test fine. My boyfriend has gone several dips
that while clearing the fish up a bit...still has not gotten rid of the
problem. We were advised not to do anymore for fear of stressing them
out even more. <Dips alone will not get rid of ich if you're putting
the fish back into an infested system.> We treated the tank with
Marisol (I believe that was the name) for a week daily, and it seemed to
have no helpful effect. The lionfish has gotten worse w/one clouded eye
now, and the puffer's white patches are getting more dense in some areas
(make sense)??? <Cloudy eyes are usually a symptom of poor water
quality. You might want to check your test kits.> We are trying to
stabilize a hospital tank to put them in...but it probably won't be
ready for a month. <Good grief, don't bother trying to cycle a
hospital tank right now. Get the infected fish in there ASAP. Then
you'll do daily water changes to keep the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates
under control and bring the specific gravity down to 1.010. And keep the
tank temp up.> I really don't want my fish to die...please please
please email me back with any suggestions...I will appreciate it
indefinitely!!! Thanks again, Bonnie <Do check out the
ich articles and FAQs on the WetWebMedia site, starting here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm. --Ananda> White
Spot treatment in marine aquarium, using Methylene blue ... Uh, no...
6/12/06 Dear team, I find myself in an emergency situation. My
1.5 yr old marine tank cracked! <Yikes!> I pulled water, corals
and my two fish (a full grown Volitans and juvenile Emperor) out into
plastic storage tubs, with heaters and air stones. I BOLTED out to the
nearest LFS and brought home a new 4ft Aqua One tank, sand etc. I set it
up overnight, <Fixing whatever the source of initial breakage I
hope/trust> filled it the following day, but lost my Volitans to
stress before she could ever go into it. 48hrs later, with the sand
still not settled, my Emperor (Empy for short) was decidedly not happy,
so rather than lose him without a chance, into the new tank he and the
corals went. Alone, with "everything different" and a tank not yet
cycled up, he was frantic to find Nibs (the Volitans). I closely
monitored the water, bought more living rock, and found a baby Volitans
(4inch body length). Empy calmed a little and teamed up with "Dude"
(baby Volitans) immediately, BUT, he has White spot. Before reading
about Methylene blue on your site, I used Sulfate tablets as told by the
LFS. <Neither one effective against Cryptocaryon...> It slowed
the cycling up and didn't help Empy, indeed, it probably set him back,
and required me to do more frequent water changes to get rid of Ammonia,
Nitrite and Nitrate that were not there before the tablets went in!
<Would very likely have occurred irrespective...> I now wish to ask;
Can Methylene blue be used in a tank containing corals? <Not
advised... not efficacious> I am afraid that if I pull Empy out into
a dip, he will stress to death, but I just have to try to help him!
He is just going through his colour change, and overall, is looking a
little better today than in the past week (I think the UV sterilizer is
helping). It has been a month of Hell, but I think we will make it as
long as I stay away from the tablets I was told to use! Will the
Methylene blue kill my corals? Please help...your site already has, I
just need more! I have seven aquariums, 2x6ft tropicals. the 4ft marine,
and some "little ones", and I can normally "hold my own", but this time
I really got "caught short". Thank you, in anticipation, and thank
you for having a web site which is SO brilliant! Janie. <Ten big
breaths and read:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files
above. The affected fishes all must be removed, treated elsewhere... not
with Sulfa drugs or Methylene Blue... Bob Fenner> Epsom Salt +
Hyposalinity + Kordon's Ich Attack -- OK? 3/2/06
Hi Bob & Crew, <Cam> Thanks for such prompt response on my
earlier query on Epsom salt in Main Display Tank, to treat my red bar
Anthias' pop eye. Your response endorsed it. Appreciated! Well,
thing get rough here. Is it Murphy's Law (bad things happen
together...??)?. <Events do seem clustered... perceptually> My
emperor angel has developed Ich, I suspect. It is certainly not air
bubbles but white dirt/dots on head and fins. I think some get onto one
eye (looks dusty). Its breathing is OK still. Still happy and eats like
pig. I did a 7 min fresh water bath on it today, hoping to relieve it
from the parasites attached. I see some dropped off but some still
remained. I have been doing speed reading on your site & hoped to
adopt the following procedure to treat the tank and emperor to tilt the
balance of health/disease in our favor. <Good way of putting this>
I intend to effect hyposalinity (1.018) + Higher temp (mid 80s) +
Kordon's Ich attack (hope it works as it claims --) for the tank, which
is the main display tank. Side note: I have treated emperor angel
with copper in the past. It developed HLLE after the treatment and I
really hope I don't have to do it to this emperor angel which is still
HLLE free. Besides, I have an infection in main display tank. I have to
control it in main display tank. <Yes> Before I take the
plunge, I would appreciate further clarification from your vast
experience:- 1. If I have to put Epsom salt to treat my red bar in
a hyposalinity tank. Is it alright? <Should be, yes> 2. What's
your view on Ich Attack. <The Novalek product?:
http://www.novalek.com/korgd20.htm Only out of blind respect for
owner/mgr. Bob Rofen do I give this some chance of actually working... I
don't believe he would be part of selling "a pig in a poke".> You
mentioned that its is worth trying in your previous response to one
hobbyist who asked similar question. Does the response still hold today?
<Mmm, I would not use this product myself... nor endorse its use in your
circumstances> 3. I have 2 cleaner shrimps in my main display
tank. do you think 1,018 SG salinity is OK with them? <No... will
likely cause their demise> 4. How long a period for a hyposalinity
treatment is deemed optimal? 2 weeks or 4 weeks? Trying to seek a
balance that most parasites are controlled/weakened and fish/shrimps do
not have to suffer for long. <... am not, NOT a fan of
hyposalinity for actual, advanced (discernible) parasite treatments...
As you will find by reading WWM, print works by myself> Thanks in
advance for your help. I am really grateful that you set up such useful
site. I also own your books. Great work! Best regards. <I
do wish you well... to cut to the proverbial chase, I would remove all
fishes, treat with a chelated copper solution... Bob Fenner> |
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