Formalin with Sensitive Fishes
Hello WetWeb crew person who takes this question    : )
<Hello! Ryan with your question today>
     I’ve made it a habit to peruse this most awesome website almost everyday as new challenges arise in my marine animal keeping odyssey. <Phenomenal thing to say!> Thank
you all for your much needed knowledge, time and caring for our piscine critters and their sometimes bewildered owners. <Sometimes?  Just joshing>
     I am seeking advise on treating a pretty sensitive flasher wrasse (not sure if P. carpenteri or p. filamentosus) for a rather persistent case of crypt..  He is in a 15 gallon bare bottomed, PVC pipe quarantine tank along with 5 Stonogobiops gobies.  PH  has remained at 8.0.
    I tried a fresh-water dip on the wrasse with adjusted ph to 8.0  and temp around 78f, and the wrasse went stiff and flared, lost color and dropped to the bottom and lay there within 5 seconds. He didn’t move when I scooped him out and put him back in the quarantine where he spent twenty
four hours breathing heavy and lying in a corner before he recovered. <Doesn't sound too promising>  In
fact, I believe I was more out stressed by how he reacted.  Am not inclined to do that again. <And likely not necessary, if the proper medications are added to the quarantine setup.>
     Decided to treat with Kordon Formalin-3 because it seemed this was the better choice for a sensitive fish. <Yes, I was about to suggest it> The biological filter crashed after
first treatment. <Predictably> Have been dosing according to directions on bottle for 7
days at the 10ppm.  Temp. is at 80f.  Because of the filter crash I have been doing 30-50% water changes a day while siphoning bottom, and dosing new change water only. <In QT, 30% daily water changes are almost mandatory!  In a perfect world, you shouldn't rely on the bacterial filter in this scenario> Also am adding Seachem Prime to help protect the fishes
from the unfortunately present ammonia and high nitrites. <OK> Throughout this, so far, 7day ordeal, the wrasse and gobies having been eating (feeding sparingly) with a ravenous appetite.
    On 7th day (AAAAAAARGH!, my back is killing me), about 3 new Ich spots appeared on the wrasse’s dorsal fin. <It's time for copper>
     My questions come from total lack of experience in treating marine fish....would you recommend I stay with the Formalin-3 at double the recent dose to 20ppm (which is what I've begun to do as I wait for a response)? and observe if it was simply that the dose was simply not strong enough? Or do you recommend using the heavier duty formalin (staying with the same type of chemical) for ponds from a company like Aquarium Products instead (I have to order off the internet)?  Or  go on to Coppersafe which I worry will maybe pound the wrasse and gobies more than the formalin.  Is switching medications  way too detrimental to the fishes health? <Run carbon, and in two days with water changes, start copper treatment.  Buy a copper test, you'll need it to get the treatment levels correct.>
     I am trying to be as conscientious a caretaker as possible and absolutely appreciate the time taken by you to consider and answer my questions.
<Yes, and overcoming ICH is the nastiest business in the hobby!  Be patient, you're on your way to curing this ailment!  Feel free to write back if the copper doesn't do the trick.  Cheers, Ryan> Thank you so much, once again,  Esmeralda

Treating Sick Fish In The Display Tank Is A Better Way?
Hey guys,
<Scott F here today>
Bob and Tony have some great books and you have a great website and I agree 100% that a QT tank is essential to having a successful reef tank, but the advice you give about needing a QT tank for a fish-only-tank (FOT) is ridiculous.
<Really? Ask the next aquarist that you meet from The Shedd Aquarium, Waikiki Aquarium, The National Aquarium, etc. if they feel that it's "ridiculous" to quarantine fishes in their fish only systems...I think that they will tell you otherwise. Quarantine is a standard procedure at all public aquariums, and should be part of every hobbyist's set of procedures. In my humble opinion, it's just something that you do, like changing water, etc. All part of the "price" of this hobby.>
If you have a FOT and it suffers an ick outbreak YOU TREAT THE WHOLE SYSTEM! Why, because all the fish have ick and the tank has ick.  I read on your website a guy with a 90 gallon tank with 6 fish and you told him to pull all the fish which were probably big in QT tanks and let the entire 90-gallon system go fallow.
<That was probably me. I still believe in that technique. Is it hard- yes! Is it disruptive? Sure! But it works. The "easy" way is NOT always the best way!>
This advice borders on criminally insane!  
<Frankly, your point of view on this matter borders on criminally ignorant.>
I can see this poor guy who probably works a 40+ hour week, has a wife and kids and now spending precious time and money running around setting up multiple QT tanks all over his house (he would probably need at least 2-20 gallon tanks) and siphoning them daily, etc.. for the next month for no logical reason.
<Gee...I'm no different than anyone else: I work a 40 plus hour week, have a "significant other", two dogs, a mortgage payment, assist on WWM, and I still treat my sick fishes in this manner. Being "busy" is no excuse for not giving our animals the best possible care, as I am sure you are aware. The fish didn't choose us...We chose them. This is where I am coming from. Of course, I believe in quarantine of all new arrivals prior to placing them in my tanks, which I suppose is also a waste of time by your standards. I mean, it might entail buying an extra heater, extra tank, and another couple of minutes a day. Yep- just throw your new fish right in the tank, it's quicker, right? And don't bother feeding them, because there must be enough natural food in the tank to sustain them, and if you feed, you might have to change water once in a while...C'mon. Think about it for a bit.>
By using your advice, he stands a much higher chance of losing the fish!
All he needed to do was treat his FOT with Copper and after 30 days start doing heavier water changes to remove the Copper.
<Hmm... what if you are treating fishes such as Centropyge angels, some tangs, and other species sensitive to copper? Do you just net them out and leave everyone else in the display while you "nuke" it with copper or Formalin? Oh, wait, that takes too much time, right? Another major concern I have with this "treat in the display" philosophy is that it encourages hobbyists to look to so-called "reef safe remedies" and other approaches of questionable value.>
You argue that the copper ruins the gravel, dead rock, live rock (for a FOT) and decorations by absorbing the Copper.
<Yes, it can...But by the same token, it is much more difficult to maintain a proper therapeutic copper level in a tank filled with rock and sand. And, as you know, it is very important to maintain a proper level of copper to assure an effective treatment.>
I agree, ahhhhh, SO WHAT!  Just don't ever use any of it in a reef tank anytime in the near future or better yet ever.
<And no one EVER switches over to reef tanks, right? Why develop these habits when you won't be able to use them in a reef or invert system...?>
My mother says keep it simple stupid and in this case you are making this "hobby" very difficult for a lot of people with advice like this.
< I agree with keeping things simple. And, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on this, but I respectfully disagree. Steps such as "fallowing" a tank and quarantine ARE easier. And, quite frankly- no one ever said that the husbandry of animals captured from the most stable environment on earth and subjected to a variety of hardships from the reef to your store is easy. The hobby requires effort, observation, and research. When we render advice on WWM, it is from our experience; what works for us. You often see us state things like "..This is what I would do" or "...In my opinion.." All advice should be taken with  a grain of salt. What we are trying to do at WWM is provide hobbyists with objective (well, usually!) advice that helps them to develop conscientious husbandry techniques. That's our mission, and I will continue to render the best advice that I can based on my experience- what I know will work for the largest number of people. To give our readers anything less would be an insult, and a profound disservice to the hobby and animals that we all love.
Sorry, I really do love your website, but this was just horrible advice.  I feel bad for this poor guy. Nathan
<Nathan, I don't like to get into sparring matches with our readers, and I apologize in advance if I am being disrespectful! However, you need to be a bit more open-minded here. I'm sure that you are a talented and compassionate hobbyist, and it's a good thing that you state your views here. I simply think that you are not looking at the big picture here, and need to look at things from a different perspective. I wish you continued success in your hobby endeavors. Regards, Scott F.>

Ich Woes (8/4/04)
Six months ago I upgraded my Marine tank to 85 gal. I had 2 clowns  and a Majestic Angel. Everyone was doing great until I purchased a powder blue tang. <Ich city. Did you not quarantine for 4 weeks first?> Within weeks the entire tank was infected with ich. I tried fresh water dips to no avail. Although the fish appeared a little better after the dip, by the next day they were covered with parasites again. (Why dip when the tank is infested with ich?) <Which is why I favor removal to QT to treat there.>  I even tried freshwater dip on my angel and put him in my old (26Gal) tank knowing that tank was parasite free but the dip DID NOT kill the parasites and guess what... the 26 gal tank now is infested with the disease. This tanks only other resident, my little cowfish, died a week later) My question, how do I rid my tanks of this problem? <6-8 weeks of no fish. All of the answers you seek are in the ich articles and FAQs. Take the time to read them and you will be well-rewarded. You may also want to read Steven Pro's excellent ich articles that start here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm> There are no fish left. I raised the temp to 84 and lowered the salinity to l.012. Will I destroy my biological filter leaving it this way? <No, but inverts may be at risk.>  How long should I wait before reintroducing fish to my tank? <Minimum six weeks, eight even better. For 4 of those weeks, your first new fish can be in quarantine.> Any advice is greatly appreciated! <BTW, powder blues and majestics are both rather difficult to keep and grow too big for your tank. Consider more appropriate fish.> Thanks, Carol <Hope this helps, Steve Allen>

Staying The Course...(Ich Treatment)
Hello Crew!
<Hi there! Scott F. with you today!>
If you don't mind, I would like to update and ask a question.  I have positively ID'd my tang as having Cryptocaryon.  That was a few weeks ago.  I tried hyposalinity at 1.009 for approx. 2weeks, but found it to be ineffective.  Rather than continuing (FOWLR) I decided to bite the bullet and separated my fish into a QT tank.  I have been treating with Copper Sulfate at .25ppm.  After 1-2 days, all signs of ich disappeared.  It has been 11 days since I started the copper treatment.  I had been running the FOWLR tank at low salinity during this time (11 days at approx 85-86F) and slowly raising salinity back to normal (no fish in it).  I would like to ask your suggestion for returning my fish to the main tank-when is it safe-(I have read life cycle of Cryptocaryon is 10 days, but others say possible 30 days-is this possible) and whether it is safe to discontinue copper treatment in 2-3 days (as directions on package state).  Thank you very very much for all your help.  
Jeff
<Well, Jeff, you don't need to keep the copper concentration in the treatment tank any longer than the manufacturer recommends (usually around 14-21 days). I'd keep all of the fishes out of the main tank for a full month, or longer, as dormant Cryptocaryon parasites can strike when the fishes return...No sense rushing things here...Just follow through on the treatment, and keep the newly-cured fishes in the copper-free hospital tank for a couple of more weeks, and you'll be fine! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Another Ich Battle...
I have a 54 gallon saltwater corner tank that I lost 3 fish to Ich in about 6 weeks ago. I dosed my tank with copper before I lost them ......but I waited too long to treat ( I am a novice).
<All part of the learning curve...Don't be too hard on yourself>
My question to you is...........the tank sat empty of fish for about 5 weeks and I tested the copper level it is below efficacy level at about .1 .....I just bought a Lemonpeel angel 2 days ago and it looks like one fin is getting white spots on it. He's still eating aggressively but occasionally scratches on a rock. So tonight I dose my 54 gallon with about 50 drops of copper and turned my skimmer off. I don't have a copper test kit.
<You must check for copper whenever you use it, or you will not be able to maintain a therapeutic dose, or you may even overdose>
I will get one tomorrow........but I know you have to catch Ich really quick and I don't want to overdose or underdose my fish before I can get a kit.
<Exactly!>
With a little copper in the tank, and the copper I put in tonight should I wait till I test tomorrow........to put more in, also is it safe to keep my skimmer off for 3 weeks to keep copper level up.
<I would not add any more copper until you can test for it. Also, you really don't want to treat in the display tank. With all of the substrate, etc., it becomes very difficult to maintain a proper level in the tank. s far as the skimmer is concerned, I'd keep it on...But, as I said before- I would not treat in the display!>
I don't want nitrate levels too high and have to do a water change before the copper kills the ich. I have live rock by the way and it is a marine tank only. I know the rock is pretty much sacrificed by the copper.
<Yep>
I just want to do right by this fish and don't want to get discouraged. Thanks and I appreciate any help I can get.
<Well, I'd back-pedal a bit and do all that I can to eliminate copper from the display tank (Poly Filter or CupriSorb excel at removing copper). Then, Id let this tank sit without fishes (or copper) for another 6 weeks, performing regular water changes and other maintenance as usual. The fish should be treated in a separate tank or Rubbermaid container with copper or formalin, per the manufacturer's recommendations. Read all about this "two front" approach to ich treatment on the WWM site. You can beat it! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Alternative Therapies For Ich (1/27/04)
   Greetings WWM Crew! <To You as Well. Steve Allen here.>
   I seem to have gotten into an Ich mess despite my best attempts at quarantine.  Here is my current situation - I have a 150 fish only system housing 5 fish - a damsel, a striped puffer and a longhorn cowfish from another tank in my house, a yellow tang and a juvenile queen angel, both recent purchases.  The tang entered near the end of cycling, the angel shortly there after, followed last week by the three others.  Nitrites and Ammonia are zero, Nitrate just barely registers.
   I've never seen Ich in my old tank, and I guess I wrongly assumed that I was okay... and of course failed to quarantine the last 3 fish. <Live and learn.> Yesterday I noticed a couple white spots on the fins of the puffer and cowfish, and they sure look like Ich. <You are almost certainly right.> I'm now in the situation of having 5 large-ish fish to house and treat. with only a 15 gallon hospital / QT tank (my secondary QT is also my water mixing trash can). I definitely can't house 5 separately, and I think the stability of the big tank is best for the fish. <Big Rubbermaid tubs with biofiltration, circulation & heat work well.>
   I travel quite a bit for work, and don't have anyone I trust to do daily water changes, etc - my girlfriend has learned to feed correctly, but that's about it. <Understood.>
   I know you're against treating in the main tank, but I guess I'm looking for some alternatives.  I like the idea of hyposalinity, but I've found a lot of conflicting information on the subject.  <Many opinions out there.> I've already started to lower the salinity <Do you have inverts?--could be dangerous to them>, and I'm now running the UV sterilizer 24 hours a day. <May kill the free-swimming organisms if flow rate correct. The theory then is that if few are able to get to your fish, most eventually die for lack of a host.> I'm also tempted to try copper.  <Resist this with all your strength. This will be nothing but trouble and disaster. Will kill your biofilter and inverts. May kill your cowfish and thus wipe out your tank. Will ruin your sand and rock, causing them to leach toxic copper forever. Should only be used in QT.> What exactly are the detrimental effects of doing these in my main system? <As above.> Am I just wasting time, or is there viable "if-you-have-to-do-it" alternative? <The QT/fallow method is the only proven way.> I'd love to run fallow for weeks, but I just don't think my fish would make it. <I understand your predicament. I can tell you that I had a few spots of ich on two fish in my tank last July. I was very careful about water quality and ran UV for several weeks. I have not seen a spot of ich on any fish since. A word of warning: ich will "disappear" after a few days and then may come back a hundred fold a couple of weeks later when the next, bigger generation is ready to leave the substrate and infest fish. It may then be too late to save your fish. That's the risk you take if you do not immediately treat aggressively. You have to weigh the factors and decide what's best for your situation. There was a good article by Scott Michael in Aquarium USA 2004. You should be able to find this at Petco or PetSmart. Advanced Aquarist Online is running a good series of articles right now too. Unfortunately, this month's is only number 3 of 5. Check here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/toc.htm>
Many Thanks, Dave <Hope this helps.>

A Noble Experiment (Ich Treatment)
About how big," in microns preferably", is the free swimming stage or tomont stage of these protozoa?
<Anywhere from 60-370 microns in size>
Can they be filtered out effectively?
<In the free-swimming stages, it is theoretically possible, but probably rather difficult, because the density of the protozoans in the water column is rather sparse. Usually easier to siphon out the tomonts after 12-18 hours, when they create a cyst and attach to substrates. Using daily 100% water changes, siphoning from the bottom in a bare tank may allow a successful cure without using medications, as you are probably aware>
I have a 20 gallon QT  tank with a piece of PVC pipe and two smooth round rocks about eight inches in diameter without any bottom substrate I.E. gravel  that I am
experimenting with.
<Good>
I'm trying to eliminate these critters by using a 1/12 hp Little
Giant pump linked to a filter canister.  I am also implementing a 30 watt double helix UV sterilizer  with a flow rate of about 1 1/2 gallons per minute.
<Interesting...>
Hyposalinity  has been established at a reading of 1.008 and I am also using light manipulation.  I have set the temp to 82 degrees," I realize only the one type of protozoa will be affected". I plan on getting a protein skimmer before I start. The tank has been established for about 2 months now with a whisper
30-60 bio-filter that was established by live rock.  I was basically wondering what size filter I should try and use in the canister or if I'm just wasting my time and use it for extra filtration?
<Not a waste of time, but you'd want to go with a micron sleeve of some sort>
I plan to go to the LFS and buy one of the most infested damsels and try to cure then return it if it gets better or he might just become the local in my QT tank? Just a thought.  If this
doesn't work I will just let the tank go fallow for a month or so, I've got nothing but time.
<Interesting and noble idea...ell worth the experiment>
That's my new saying after I failed so miserably on my first
attempt at saltwater. Just wanted to let you guy's know, if it wasn't for your site I would have already given up on keeping saltwater fish.. Thanks again.
<I like your expression...Do take your time and carefully record your results. I wish you luck on your experiment. Regards, Scott F.>

Ick on my shark - How to treat
First, thank you for taking the time to help us hobbyist.  The wealth of information you guys share is amazing.
My situation: I have a 110 gal FOWLR (and fine grain sand) DAS tank/filter/skimmer housing a 4" dogface puffer, 5" antennata lionfish, and a 7" banded cat shark (I know this tank is too small to keep the shark for long,
<Do monitor nitrogenous waste content as well (ammonia...) as the Dutch Aquarium Systems filters are puny, inconstant>
plans for the near future include a custom 12' 350-400 gallon tank built into my living room wall). My last addition to the tank was a 4" Porkfish.
My problem:
Everything went fine for about 2 months then all of the sudden Ick broke out (the day before I left town for a week I noticed it). When I returned the Porkfish was very sick and died a couple days later. My puffer is also ill now. He has taken to swimming directly in front of a powerhead - I guess it is kind of like being rubbed without being scratched by the rock - really a neat behavior but I would rather have never witnessed it. My shark is showing a handful of Ick spots. The lion is fine. I have lowered the SG to just under 1.018 which has helped but not cured the problem.
<It won't>
It seems like they are not getting worse but they are not getting better.  I assume a lot of the parasites are dying due to the SG but the stronger ones are living to attach to a host.  
<A good way to put this>
Instead of a massive infection killing my puffer I am afraid of the cumulative impact they are having on his gills.  If I don't get this treated I am going to have a puffer with emphysema.  All parameters (pH, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia....) are good. Whether I move the fish to a treatment "tank" or treat in the main tank - what medication can I use? I am afraid CopperSafe will kill my shark. I have Paragon II but I do not know enough about it to use it just yet. What can I do?  Should I go lower on the SG, around 1.015?
Thanks
<You might have success with a combination of elevated temperature (to the mid 80's F.) and the administration of Quinine Hydrochloride solution... sold still... and used as an anti-protozoal with some fishes. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-27,GGLD:en&q=quinine+hydrochloride+fish+disease&spell=1
This is a treatment I have used with success with juvenile sharks... many years ago... as a consultant to public aquariums. Bob Fenner>

A rainbow of colors to treat ich... blue, green or copper
Hello Bob! Thank you for your very informative articles. I'm new to marine tanks. I have two saltwater tanks; one 55 gallon and a 10 gallon quarantine tank (I'm at work but will send the other stats later). The fish in the small tank just came down with ich. Should I remove live rock and hermit crabs before performing a copper treatment on the fish?
<... you will have to>
If so, I don't want to chance contaminating the big tank by transferring the hermit crabs and live rock to that tank, but am not sure how to store them while quarantine tank is being treated.
<You... need another tank>
Also, I went to the fish store and they gave me a copper treatment kit, copper test kit, and "ich Attack" from Kordon (it’s positioned as being “100% organic and safe for reef and live rock aquariums”). Do you know if the latter works very well?
<I do not. But, the owner of the company, Bob Rofen is not a fakir... I am very curious to know how the product singles out the one type of protozoan though.>
I also have some hermit crabs in the larger tank and am now worried that they might spread ich to the clownfish. Should I treat the hermit crabs for a fresh water dip or take all of the hermit crabs back to the store because they are suspects for carrying ich? 
<Do not freshwater dip the Hermits... or any invertebrate marine animal...>
I just finished reading "Fighting the war on two fronts" and wanted to pick up some Methylene blue to treat all of the hermit crabs in the big tank (and then maybe put some of them back or take them back to the store).
<Mmm, better by far to take the tact of isolating possible vectors... in the absence of fish hosts, the Cryptocaryon will die out or lose much of its virulence>
At lunch (and also before reading your article is when I bought the Ich attack. I also have Rid Ich at home and noticed that it contains formaldehyde and chloride salt of malachite green (but strangely enough the water turns BLUE). 
<Yes... this is the Malachite>
Also, I’ve read that poor water quality, stressed fish or a sudden change in water temperature could trigger an ich outbreak.
<Yes... though marine white spot is far more often "imported" with new livestock than triggered in place>
Do you have an opinion about which one may have been the biggest culprit? I’d like to narrow my focus to see what I need to look for in the future to prevent something like this from happening again. 
<No way to tell given the information you have provided. Bob Fenner>

Re: a rainbow of colors to treat ich... blue, green or copper
Hello Dr. Bob,
<Just Bob>
Thanks for being so kind and sharing your wealth of knowledge to help people that you don’t even know. I saw your name on another site as a reference and thought it was cool because you just personally responded to a message that I sent you just yesterday.
<Mmm, wouldn't you?>
So, here is what’s gone on since my last message: Quarantine tank:
10 gallons
Emperor filter fit for a 50 gallon tank
Underwater heater
Live rock and gravel
Temp 79 degrees (raising it from 75.9)
Salinity is about 1.021 (I think but will have to get back to you because I forgot to write it down)
Two damsels with ich (discovered yesterday morning).
We treated the fish to a freshwater bath last night, but it didn’t last for very long. The small fish immediately fell to the bottom of the container and rolled onto its side when we put him into the freshwater dip. We took him out right away because he was so stressed. The larger fish we left in for almost a minute before he started thrashing around and hitting his head. 
<Happens... you did pH adjust the water... it was about the same temp.?>
Initially, we prepared a Methylene Blue dip, but decided against it when we read conflicting information between the manufacturer’s directions and your treatment instructions. Your instructions said to turn the water dark blue and leave the fish in for about two minutes, but the container recommended a larger dosage and said in bold letters that the fish was to remain in the Methylene dip for no more than ten seconds.
<Mmm, either one... Methylene Blue is VERY safe... in fact it's administered intravenously into "blue babies" in some cases, places... where folks don't go for blood mixing>
I also was hesitant because I didn’t want to risk squishing the black fish because I wasn’t able to really see them in the dark blue water and that’s why we pulled the plug on the Methylene dip. Should we try to dip the fish again? If the answer is yes, should we follow your instructions for the Methylene dip or the manufacturer’s?
<Either way... >
We did NOT treat the Quarantine tank with copper, but instead used Rid-Ich because I treated them with a dose before I left for work in the morning and the bottle recommended against using multiple treatments at the same time. I also removed all of the hermit crabs and took them back to the store.
<Mmm, you need to do a bit of re-studying... the rock and substrate in the treatment/quarantine tank? No good... the copper kills the life there, and the material absorbs the copper.>
A bigger problem surfaced this morning when we noticed that one of the clown fish had two white spots on its body. He is located in the main tank, 55 gallons, 78 degrees with two clowns, five hermit crabs, two damsels and some live rock. 
A friend of ours recommended that we purchase a UV sterilizer so, I hopped online and bought two Turbo Twist 3X UV Sterilizers from Drs. Foster and Smith. I read that you CANNOT treat the fish with copper and a UV sterilizer at the same time because the UV sterilizer rips some of the copper molecules apart and makes the copper dosage deadly; it also read that you aren’t supposed to use it with other treatments. With regards to “other treatments” I’m assuming that they are referring to the Rid-Ich medicine. Do you know if the UV sterilizer can be used with Rid-Ich? 
<Can be>
So, we’re not sure what to do now. Are we supposed to pull out all of the fish from the large tank and surely condemn them to death by moving them into a smaller quarantine tank with the damsels that are covered by ich?
<If this is the only treatment system available... yes... you might throw in some chemically inert decor... like PVC parts, pipe... for habitat... need to remove the LR, sand...>
If so, would you recommend that we strip out the rock and gravel from the quarantine tank and turn it into a copper treatment tank or simply continue with the Rid-Ich? Or should we move forward with a third tank and make it a bare bottomed copper treatment tank? Also, what would happen if we left the four fish in the larger tank (including the clown fish with one or two white spots on it), hooked up the UV sterilizer to it and did NOT treat it with any medications? 
<... this "going back and forth" with questions won't work... too much lag time... Again, if you're interested in saving your livestock, please read on WWM, elsewhere, talk with others... and make up your own mind re a treatment protocol... Now, as this parasite can proceed quickly...>
Thanks in advance for all of your help. It just gets difficult because there are so many differing opinions when you start investigating diseases and treatments online or asking friends & pet store employees for their opinions.
Regards, Tiffany
<Tiffany... don't become confused... ask point blank why the people who are telling you believe (the science, fact) what they are telling you...>
FYI: I returned the 100% organic product because another fish store person said that, “it didn’t work”. I guess he tried it before and didn’t have success with the product. No offence to your friend.
<None taken... I have known Dr. Rofen in the trade for more than thirty years... Kordon/Novalek/Oasis... the ARCS... are venerable companies... but even the best have some clunkers now and then. Bob Fenner>

Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Hi guys...
<Ceri>
Well I just bought a Coral Beauty Angel, he looked OK in the LFS but the next day after bringing him home he developed white patches on the fins and I am starting to see small white specs on him.
<Man, this is the year for parasitic troubles!>
Not many just a few. So, I read, read, and read some more on your site. This is what I have done. Good news, I put him directly in a QT tank. I have raised temperature to 80 and lower salinity for hyposalinity conditions. I have also ordered some Methylene Blue and CopperSafe.
<Good moves>
So, here are the questions. How many times do I perform the fresh water dip with Methylene Blue? Only once?
<Once (on the way into QT) is best>
Once a day? Leave him there for 3-5 minutes?
<About right...>
How do I know if this stresses the fish?
<Observation... that the fish isn't laying over "too much", breathing "too hard"...>
Also, won't putting him back into the affected water re-start the ich?
<Bingo, yes... the reason the dip/bath is best performed en route...>
Should I start the copper treatment as soon as he is returned to tank?
<ASAP>
If he looks better I understand I need to stop the copper treatment through water changes.
<Actually, no... you need to keep a physiological dose of free/cupric ion present for the two week treatment period... you may well not see the "ich itself"...>
I then want to bring water to the same conditions as my main tank. I am worried that lowering the temperature will bring Ich back, is that possible?
<Not if it is not present...>
Please advise, I want to save this guy. So far, he still looks good, but not eating as well today. Poor thing has no algae to eat in the QT, hope this is OK. I have never done a fresh water dip before, I am probably more stressed than the fish!
Thanks...Ceri.
<Likely... these baths are not of themselves that much strain on the fish... the netting is far worse... Bob Fenner><<Wish I would have emphasized that once the Cryptocaryon was off the hosts, it would not "magically" reappear like freshwater (Ichthyophthiriasis) ich. RMF>>

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty
Thanks Bob, really appreciate your help. Since catching this guy will be stressful...and I would have to put him back into the same QT, should I skip the dip and go for the copper only?
<Yes, I would. Thanks for the clarification>
(yes lessoned learned, will dip all new first FIRST) Copper hasn't arrived yet, I will start as soon as it does. Do I keep the water at hyposalinity during the copper, or can I bring it back to normal?
Thanks...Ceri
<Can leave low if the fishes being treated are not "too" stressed already... a balance my friend. Bob Fenner> 

Re: Help me Save my Coral Beauty, ich
Great, thanks Bob. I will slowly bring water conditions back up to normal. I don't want to fight monitoring copper and hyposalinity tank at the same time. My QT has live rock and substrate it in (thanks to LFS who suckered me into it). I will remove before starting copper treatment as I understand it makes an accurate reading difficult
<Actually will quickly absorb the copper>
(from the FAQs on your site !!) and will ease in removal of these nasty bugs !!
Thanks for the support. Ceri.
<You're welcome my friend. Steady on. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty/Copper - Follow-up
Hi guys...well I am sad to say my Coral Beauty has taken a turn for the worse. I started copper and now he looks TERRIBLE. Appears as if there are no white specs on him, but there is a large white fuzzy patch, that is growing, right next to his, well, butt. Nitrite and Ammonia levels have spiked through the roof. I did a 20% water change Fri, 50% water change yesterday, and 50% water change today and levels are still high. I have decided to stop the copper and just focus on getting the water to normal. I added PolyFilter... 
<Good> 
... and added a new filter cartridge in the Emperor 280. Question is, what happened to this poor fish? Does copper kill the bacterial function of the filter?
<Yes, especially at the .25 level I see below> 
I am desperate and just don't know what is wrong with him, or how to help. Please advise. The directions on the bottle are not clear, and the copper test kit always read over .25 of copper in the tank, even after water changes. 
<Copper is an effective method of killing diseases if used properly and with care. For angels, the copper level shouldn't exceed .15, .25 is dangerous. Are you using an ionic copper or chelated, or which brand/type are you using?>
Was the treatment done in quarantine in a rock/substrate free tank?  Also, since I was reading your site last night, I have a question for my main 65 gal tank. I have 75 lbs live rock, Fluval 404 with carbon and bio-material, Emperor 400 bio-wheel, and a Prism skimmer. Should remove the bio-filter material from the Fluval 404? Is this adding nitrates?
<I don't believe you have enough live rock to remove the bio material. Yes the rings can increase nitrate slightly.> 
Also the Fluval is adding tons of tiny bubbles in the tank, I was thinking of replacing it with a Eheim Wet/Dry canister filter. Is this a good choice? 
<There are better ways for less $. Even though the Prizm is rated for a tank your size, it is not that efficient to handle it. I use one myself on my 29 mini reef. Just great for that.> 
If it is, I should not use the bio- material for that as well since I have live rock - right?
< If it were me, I would seriously think about adding a hang-on refugium with a live sand base and add some Caulerpa. This will help control the nitrates and nuisance algae. You will need to buy a small PC fixture to place over the refugium. CPR is coming out with their hang-on that includes a built-in skimmer. This would add to the skimming efficiency of your system.>
Question 3 - sorry - full of uncertainty today. I will do a freshwater dip with Meth. Blue for each new fish from now on BUT - the directions say to leave the fish only in the dip 10 seconds. I have read that the fish should be there 3 to 5 MINUTES. Which one is correct? And to be safe, it is good to dip when moving from the QT to the main tank just as an extra precaution? What is the correct concentration of blue to use? 
<I'd follow info on the bottle.  Here is a link on disease prevention that has info on FW dipping. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm. James (Salty Dog)> 

Coral Beauty/Copper Follow-up, Doesn't Look Good..
Thanks for quick reply. Sorry to say, Coral Beauty basically dead. On it's side breathing very hard, I added water, and some of the bio-material from my main tank to QT tank, but afraid it is too late.  Yes the QT is rock and substrate free (well there is a teeny bit on the bottom since I removed existing substrate before treatment.) I used 7ml of CopperSafe for 10 gal tank, per directions. I feel terrible, I just killed this innocent fish. I really want to be sure this does not happen again. Directions said to leave in the copper filter, was that a good idea? 
<Ceri, usually when a fish gets that bad, copper will just finish it off. It' very important to treat right at the onset of the disease. If the directions say to leave the carbon in place, then that's what I'd do. Sorry. James (Salty Dog)>