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PO4 too low too long. No rdg.
2/9/15 using sugar to reduce phosphate and nitrate
4/27/13 Phosphates... really/and algae control; RO maint. 02/13/13 Re: FOWLR Fish stocking 6/19/12 Phosban Reactor and Carbon Reactor (Runtime) –
02/23/12 Question About Phosphate, Nitrate, And
Control Via Caulerpa 9/23/10 Extreme Phosphate & DSB
Question/Phosphate Control 8/8/10 Rinsing Frozen Food (Managing Phosphate) --
04/06/10 Re: Rinsing Frozen Food (Managing
Phosphate) -- 04/06/10 PO4 "trapped" in LR & LS --
02/12/10 Re: PO4 "trapped" in LR & LS
-- 2/12/10 Dosing Vodka for Nitrate/Phosphate Control
-- 11/07/09 Remove phosphate with high aeration?
05/22/09 Aquafuge vs. Rowaphos 12/7/08 Hey Guys, <Gals too, hello there Steve.> I have been reading your site for information about Refugiums. I am going to add one on my 55 gallon reef. <Good move that you will not regret.> Currently I am using an Aqua C Remora Pro and 90 lbs of live rock with a lot of water movement for my filtration. I also have an Aquaclear 70 HOT filter running with some Rowaphos and filter floss to keep the phosphates down. After reading your site I am left with two questions. 1. If I add an Aquafuge refugium would you recommend removing the Aquaclear filter? <I would, it is of little use with your LR, skimmer and refugium. It just becomes a maintenance burden at this point.> I would no longer need to purchase that expensive Rowaphos. At the same time I need to get the phosphates a bit lower than they are now so I want to make sure that I am actually making headway. I don't want to buy an expensive toy if it isn't going to be any better than the Rowaphos. <These media can actually strip the water of too much phosphate. Do test your levels, but if water changes and the refugium do not keep them in check then it is time to look at the source/problem rather than treating the symptom.> 2. Would any of the 3 Aquafuge models be large enough to produce enough food for a Mandarin Goby? <Not with a 55 gallon display.> I know that refugiums can produce enough food for theses fish but even the largest Aquafuge model is pretty small. <This is one of those cases where many claim it works, with having the fish doing "fine" for 6 months...the same fish in another 6 months will be dead and gone.> Steve <Scott V.> Phosphate control -- 10/10/08 Hi Bob, <David> I am moving towards a refugium and or deep sand bed for the grow out system in the clown house. I have a few questions though. I have 2 items that I need to address in regards to filtration for the grow out system. I am wanting to get these issues resolved before I add a whole bunch more fish to this system which is going to happen in the near term as I have 5 different clowns that are now spawning (well 4 as the ocellaris are on vacation) . I am still having an algae problem that needs to be addressed also. <Mmm, okay> The first is nitrates. I believe that in our conversation while you were here that you had mentioned that a deep sand bed may be a good addition for the removal of nitrates versus a commercial denitrator. <Yes... much more stable, safe... and good for much more than simply natural denitration> I have a 29g, 55g, or possibly a 90g tank that I could use for a deep sand bed. If I remember correctly you had mentioned running all system flow through the deep sand bed and then back to the main sump where the skimmer, heater, uv sterilizer, etc. . was housed. I'll try to bullet the questions to make it easier to answer. If I use the 55g tank then we are talking about a few hundred pounds of sand to make a 9-10" DSB (I thought you had said 9"-10")? <Yes> Do I need you use varying sizes of sands at different depths? <Mmm, no... better IMO to just use one grade... of very/quite fine oolithic sand> Would pumping a certain amount of water from the sump through the DSB and back to the sump work as well if I didn't want to change the drain and supply plumbing right away? <Mmm, I would NOT do this pumping back and forth... I would ONLY rely on gravity in going/coming one way or t'other> The second issue I think may be a cause of the excess algae along with the nitrates is Phosphates. I do approx. 25-30% water changes in the grow out system twice a month and the phosphates are still vary high (2-3ppm). Is there a good way to deal with phosphates naturally without a bunch of chemicals? <Yes... the purposeful culture of organisms (likely macro algae) that will readily absorb these (and much more again)... Gracilaria, Chaetomorpha are two present fave genera here> Would adding macro algae's to the deep sand bed we worth the effort. Ex Chaeto, Caulerpa or others and making this more of a refugium/DSB? <I would NOT use the genus Caulerpa... the other algae, some nominal lighting... perhaps dividing the area into two sections, lighting one side then the other alternating... such that some light is on all the time... would be my choice> Obviously as this system grows it will consume more time and the more simplified I can make the maintenance the better. It does get old continuously scraping the glass... Am I heading in the right direction? <IMO/E yes... the use of aluminum, iron-based contactors, resin-type filtrants is expensive, hard to regulate, and really unnecessary. Go the biological route here David> Other than those two issues, I think that adding Ozone and the new larger skimmer is helping. Just want to keep moving forward. <I understand> I have the picture to send to you for you autograph. Should I send it to your house in San Diego? I have the address if that is the best place to send it. <Yes, here in SD: 8586 Menkar Rd., San Diego, CA 92126> Thanks, Dave Durr <Be chatting, Bob Fenner> Mud bed vs. DSB vs. bare bottom 8/31/08 Refugium Confusion... Dear crew, <Scott F. your Crew member tonight!> I am in the process of changing things around for my 210 g FOWLR (putting a larger skimmer in a sump, replacing my 2 Remora hang-ons). My specific question is regarding my refugium. It's been in use for 3 years with a mud bed. In that time I've had a constant battle with hair algae in my main tank, can't get coralline to take over and I swear my tank always has a slight green tint. However, my fish have never been healthier. In the past I've always had problems with lateral line disease on certain fish. I have a blue hippo tang that I've had for the last 3 years who is beautiful without a mark on him. <Interesting...Seems a lot like what I've heard in the ads for Eco System Miracle Mud!> I have a suspicion that the mud has been a contributing factor to the phosphates and hydrogen sulfide. <A possibility, although phosphates often come from food and source water, and can be reduced, or even eliminated via use of water pre-treatment (RO/DI) and good protein skimming. On the other hand, hydrogen sulfide could be coming from a disturbance in the deep mud bed> What are most aquarists doing now for their refugiums? Using mud, sand or nothing at all? <Wow...hard to say. So many different ways to go. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If your goal is to grow macroalgae, such as Chaetomorpha, you may be able to get away without any substrate at all. On the other hand, many hobbyists are taking advantage of their refugiums to run a supplemental deep sand bed. I've even seen hobbyists use their refugia for seagrasses-an interesting and attractive concept.> Today I'm emptying my refugium to put in my new sump and refugium set-up. I don't know whether to keep the mud or not. I have Chaetomorpha, Caulerpa, and 2 mangroves growing as well as some live rock and assorted other inhabitants. Thanks for your input. Jeff <I'd try some of the other controls for phosphate mentioned above first, before tearing out your mud bed. I would, however, properly dispose of the Caulerpa, as it has some real drawbacks. You'll find that the Chaetomorpha is a far better nutrient export vehicle than Caulerpa, and has none of the drawbacks (ie; potential to release gametes, possible toxicity to corals, and super aggressive growth). If harvested regularly, you can achieve tremendous nutrient export with Chaetomorpha. In the end, configure your refugium to do what you want it to do (ie; provide nutrient export, create a safe haven for larval fishes, supplemental food production, etc.) and you will be happier overall with your results. Hope this helps! Regards, Scott F.> Kalk, Skimmer and Phosphate Precipitation Questions -- 08/27/08 Hi Gang, <<Hello X>> First many thanks for the incredible resource you guys provide for us! <<On behalf of the Crew'¦you're quite welcome>> I have an 850 gallon tank, 240 gallon sump and a 150 gallon refugium. <<Very nice'¦ And I with my 375g tank, 75g sump, and 55g refugium am quite envious. Though I must confess obtaining a larger system would entail having to give up a spouse. Okay, sorry'¦back with the program>> I have been reef keeping for over 10 years and the more I learn the less I realize I know. <<I do understand'¦ I've been in the hobby for more than three decades, with the last two being devoted entirely to reef keeping. And for me, I don't think I 'really' started to learn until I started trying to help others>> I battle with phosphates in the aquarium from the fish load and feedings (Salifert tests between 0.1 and 0.5). <<I see'¦ I'm a BIG believer in feeding your fishes, and even 'the tank' for that matter'¦but water quality must be maintained/not suffer. If ancillary filtration is sufficient then perhaps your fish load is just too much? As for the Phosphate readings, how does your tank respond re? Phosphate is 'required' by all living organisms; and though these readings are higher than generally recommended for a reef system'¦how is the tank taking them? Does it suffer nuisance algae outbreaks? '¦loss of coral growth? '¦loss of color? If not, then perhaps you needn't worry re the Phosphate level. I'm not saying that a reading of 0.5ppm shouldn't be deleterious; but to allow for possible inaccuracies in the test kit or even your testing methods, let the condition of the tank rule your actions>> I have been toying with the idea of raising my pH to get phosphates to precipitate to some degree to help "bridge" the phosphate gap between water changes. <<Okay'¦ There are some other avenues to explore as well like macroalgae in the refugium and chemical Phosphate remover such as one of the iron-based products or Poly-Filter pads'¦though the chemical removal option would be quite expensive in a system as large as yours>> The idea I have been thinking is this: I will drip in Kalk water with a vacuum pump (Tom brand) that is controlled by my Neptune controller at a set point of 8.5 to "hold" the pH high enough to precipitate the phosphates. <<Okay'¦and once reached, this should immediately precipitate Phosphate. Though do be aware that suddenly reducing the Phosphate level of the 'system' to zero may also harm your corals. In fact, I such reductions of phosphate may do 'instant and permanent harm.' This may be held up by the anecdotal accounts of coral bleaching and/or necrotic events by those using/overusing the very efficient iron-based Phosphate removers'¦which sometimes continue even after removal of the media from the system>> Is this safe to hold pH that high on a "permanent" basis? <<I have heard of it being done for several weeks at a time to combat certain stubborn nuisance algae strains (e.g. - Bryopsis), but as a 'permanent' solution it may not be desirable, nor do I think it is necessary. Merely adding the Kalkwasser to help maintain a lower pH and/or facilitate Calcium replenishment will precipitate Phosphate from exposure to the extremely high pH of the solution in the area of introduction>> Is 8.5 high enough? <<Should be>> Is it best to send the Kalk down the drain that feeds my skimmer directly for reasons of saponification? <<You could'¦though saponification will still occur if you don't, in the area of introduction. But I would not/choose not to do this for reasons of reducing the Calcium deposits on the moving/friction heated parts of the skimmer pump(s). It's up to you, but I let Kalkwasser enter my system at my refugium where is then gravity feeds (a bit more 'diluted') to the pump chamber of my sump>> This one (of (3) 1.5 drains) drain only goes from the overflow box to the skimmer (A-300 H&S) then into the sump, or is dripping it anywhere in the sump just as good? <<Anywhere in the system will suffice'¦ As stated, I prefer to introduce the mixture to my 'pump less' refugium>> Is this a decent/good method for helping keep the phosphates under control long term? <<I think that depends on who you ask. Some may tout this as a big advantage/argument for dosing Kalkwasser'¦but I have come to believe it is of limited utility re Phosphate control. The biggest problem is this method does not 'remove' Phosphate from the system and the 'stored' Phosphate can be reintroduced in a soluble form by changes in water chemistry and maybe even by some bacterial/biological activities. Better by far to remove excess Phosphate when possible. The 'safest' method is likely export via harvesting macroalgae from the refugium, though this is also probably the slowest means requiring a large amount of material to be removed to have an impact if levels are very high. If levels are such as to be dangerous/deleterious to the system then 'judicious' use of a chemical media, along with careful monitoring/testing may be best>> I have searched and have not found a whole lot of info that details this idea. If I use the Kalk to keep pH up will it become too much calcium for the tank (I will obviously test to see long term results)? <<That depends on the Calcium demands of your system'¦but will be evidenced by your testing>> I have ran a "trial" run doing what I stated above and it seems that I need to drip in about 3-5 gallons of Kalk a day to keep the pH this high. Is that too much daily? <<That remains to be seen as well. It really only becomes 'too much' when it elevates pH to dangerous levels, elevates Calcium to exceedingly high levels presenting a danger of spontaneous precipitation of bio-mineral and alkaline content, strips Magnesium from the system (you will need to monitor/supplement as necessary), or exceeds the evaporation rate of the system causing dilution and lowering of Salinity>> I have a MTC ProCal reactor that for the most part keeps up with calcium/Alk demands although the more stonies I add the more it requires from the reactor to the point that I now need to start dosing some extra calcium (thus the need for the Kalk). <<Ah'¦okay>> So I am hoping to kill 2 birds with one stone here. Please if you have any links that can provide any additional info would be great. Thanks! <<If you haven't already, do have a look here and among the associated links in blue at the top of the page: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/po4faqs.htm . Regards, EricR>> Vodka Dosing -- 08/19/08 Hi -- <<Hello>> I've searched your site and a few others and read some interesting articles about the concept of vodka or ethanol dosing to reduce/eliminate Nitrate and Phosphate in reef tanks. <<Indeed>> Most of it was fairly dated however and I was curious as to whether the idea still has currency. <<Possibly, with caveats'¦ Firstly, this methodology is not without danger...the right combination of circumstances can be catastrophic (I speak from experience). Secondly, this method only treats the symptom and is not a cure-all for what ails your system re buildup of nitrogenous/organic compounds. Are you aware of how this method works? The premise is the addition of a concentrated form of carbon (Vodka/ethanol) provides a food source that promotes the artificially high production of certain strains of bacteria for a limited period (until the carbon/food source is depleted). Some of these strains of bacteria have the ability to 'double their populations every 20-minutes.' As this mostly aerobic bacteria population grows, along with the carbon source, excess nutrients are also oxidized. As implied by the name, this process is driven by oxygen consumed by the bacteria to drive their metabolisms'¦and therein lays the greatest danger in my opinion. Coupled with the wrong conditions (already low oxygen levels from overstocking, inadequate water movement, etc.) or unfortunate circumstance (loss of power/sump pump circulation) the artificially high bacteria population can rapidly consume all the available oxygen creating a severe anoxic condition>> I'm home in the middle of a vacation for a day or two and just tested my nitrates which are disturbingly high as I had to shut down my skimmer while I've been gone. <<Hmm'¦don't know what 'disturbingly high' is>> I was thinking that it might be a way to bring them down quickly and give me time to deal with it when I return home in a week or so. <<As stated, this method only treats the symptom'¦and then only briefly. One or two 'doses' before leaving the tank for a week or so will have little overall impact. I think your system would be much better served here by a canister filter filled with cut-up Poly-Filter>> So my questions are: 1) does it work? <<It can, yes'¦ I have found it especially good for removal of Cyanobacteria'¦after determining and attending to the initial cause/source of the outbreak>> 2) Should I do it in this circumstance? <<I would not'¦for reasons already mentioned>> 3) Can you suggest a dosage; <<Would rather not as I wish to discourage your use of this methodology>> and 4) are there any risks since I won't be around to monitor anything but the short term effects? <<I strongly urge you to find/use a different method to bring down your Nitrates in this situation. And the obvious'¦keeping the skimmer running and having someone check on/feed your system and empty the skimmer while you are gone. A week is too long to leave your reef system unattended, in my opinion>> Thank you for taking the time to share your most valuable experience and expertise. Eric <<A pleasure to assist. Eric Russell>> Ps disturbingly high is around 60-70 ppm <<Ah'¦yes indeed. I would confirm the validity of this test (new/different test kit) and if accurate, determine the reason/fix what is causing such a high reading'¦skimmer on or not. Regards, EricR>> Bringing Down The Phosphate'¦Understanding Elevated-pH Phosphate Removal Mechanisms -- 03/13/08 Hello, Crew. <<Greetings, Todd>> While trying to run down the source of my elevated phosphate in my 225 gal fish and invertebrate system, I would like to bring it down fairly quickly (a band-aid only, I know). <<Indeed>> I have read about the method of raising the pH overnight to precipitate the phosphate in the Wet Web Media pages, but I'm too big of a weenie to do this. <<I see'¦ But Todd, you don't want to raise the pH for the entire display to the level required to 'precipitate' Phosphate, as that would certainly be deadly to the system. Instead, you would 'slowly' elevate and maintain the pH at 8.4 to maximize the 'binding' of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces in your tank. This can be done with Kalkwasser additions, which will also 'precipitate' Phosphate from the water column in the area of locally high pH where the Kalkwasser/ Limewater enter the system. The 'binding' of Phosphate to the Aragonite surfaces is arguably problematic as there is some speculation that if the Calcite crystals stop growing there is potential for releasing Phosphate. The 'precipitation' of Phosphate in the water column may be less problematic since the Phosphate might become coated with organics and be removed by the skimmer. The short-term advantages here for Phosphate removal seem obvious'¦the long-term effects could be debated, in my opinion. 'Complete removal' of Phosphate from the system is likely the best answer'¦as in the use of macroalgae in a refugium (periodically 'pruned' and discarded), the use of reactor with an iron-based binding agent, etc.>> Can't such a rapid pH change hurt my fish or inverts? <<Rapid changes to 'anything' in your system can be deleterious, yes>> I also ran across a Korallin product (P04 minus) which apparently complexes the phosphate to something that is easily skimmed (I have a pretty aggressive skimmer running), thereby "exporting" the phosphate through the skimmer. Any experience with this method? <<Not personally, but I do have a friend here in town who owns an LFS/Service business who swears by this stuff. But then, he swears by 'everything' he sells [grin]>> I worry about what desirable ions it might bind and remove via my skimmer. <<Indeed'¦and maybe not so much removal by the skimmer as just outright precipitation from the water column. The literature seems to indicate the product may cloud the water'¦and to keep an eye on KH to prevent a dangerous drop'¦ Warning flags? Sure'¦ But then this product is likely no more dangerous to your system than Kalkwasser. Give it a try if you wish. But just like anything else, use good sense/judgment'¦and proceed with caution>> Thanks in advance for your help and thanks for the great web page! Todd in Montana <<Happy to share. EricR in SC>> PO4 Trouble... soln.s 2/5/08 Hello Crew! <Patrick> I've recently switched over from a 125 gallon reef setup to a 200 gallon setup successfully with no losses under your guidance. The old setup had a huge PO4 problem due to the flake food I used to feed the fish. This had caused the rocks to acquire a green tint to them. During the switch, I transferred the rock to a huge bin which I kept all the premixed saltwater in for the new tank. There was no lights over this setup, only a few powerheads and a heater. <... for?> Once the new tank was up and running, I noticed the rocks had gained their white, tan coloration back. I figured the 5 day dark period had gotten rid of the algae growth. <Mmm> I had failed to acknowledge the PO4 that remained in the new water itself. <Yes> The new tank has been setup for about 4 weeks now, and I am having trouble with a brown and green algae film coating the glass, causing me to have to clean it every other day compared. From talking to other reefers, most people are reporting only having to do this every week or so. The green coloration is starting to come back on the rock work and really beginning to take a toll on the tank aesthetically. I've tried testing the water for phosphates, but the API test kit I have leaves results inconclusive due to the fact that it is VERY hard to read. The coral have shown minimal growth results, and I'm thinking it may be due to the high phosphates. <And do know that phosphate in a few chemical formats... may not register... as being readily "bound up", being used here...> All food entering the tank (frozen mysis, silversides, and DT's oyster eggs) is thoroughly defrosted and rinsed with RO/DI water before entering the tank. <Good> DT's phyto is also fed about once a week. I'm currently running GFO <For the unfamiliar with this acronym: granular ferric oxide (GFO) or alumina oxide (AO) are typically employed in fluidized media reactors...> and no carbon. I have a refugium full of Chaeto and all water changes and top off is done with RO/DI water. Water parameters are currently: Ammonia and Nitrite 0 Nitrate < 5 pH 8.2 - 8.4 Ca 420 Alk 11 dKH Mg 1150 Phosphate ? Will running the GFO and changing it out every 4 days or so make a dent in the algae development? Should I employ more herbivores to combat the development of the algae? What would be a good way of ridding this algae from the rocks besides light deprivation (there are already corals in the tank) <... Competition, anaerobic binding, export through macro-algal culture...> Thanks again for the help. Your website and advise has always proven helpful. BTW if you get a chance can you tell Mr. Fenner that I had just picked up his book and it has made a huge difference in my husbandry... Thanks again. Patrick in Cali <Mmm, please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm and the linked files at top... am wanting to hypnotize/sensitize you here... to the magic and mystery of sump/refugiums... Bob Fenner> Phosphate -- 08/08/07 Good morning, As always, thank you for your wonderful website and for sharing your amazing knowledge with us! I just have a quick question. <Thanks, I will try to help> I have been battling hair algae, and came to the conclusion that phosphate in my tap water is fueling the beast. As a result, I have been using bottled RO water until I have been able to get a Kold-Steril unit up and running. As a result of switching to RO, the algae has been slowly dying off. (I'm assuming it is, as it is turning to a light brown color instead of deep green, and it feels like I can pick it off with much more ease.) In getting the Kold-Steril up and running, I have been able to reduce phosphates from 1.0 mg/L down to 0.5 mg/L. My question is this: Is 0.5 mg/L low enough to keep the algae from roaring back once I switch from bottled RO to the Kold-Steril filtered water? (I am avoiding using a home RO system because of the obscene waste water, and buying bottled RO water is quite expensive, and very labor intensive!) <the problem with RO water and the Kold-Steril kit is TDS. They both have TDS post filtration and need to go thru a Mixed bed DI resin. If you add a DI unit onto your output hose of your Kold-steril unit you should have 0 TDS and no phosphates until the DI resin exhausts. Fortunately these are rechargeable.> I am in the middle of working with the maker of Kold-Steril to see if I can get the phosphate lower, but I don't know if that will happen. Any advice you have is greatly appreciated. (Some have told me to add DI to the Kold-Steril, but others have said it won't help. Not sure who is correct.) <The DI will help. I use 2 chambers in a row in my Filtration unit to get better results. Try adding some phosphate removing resins to the tank filtration also. Use the iron oxide forms red in color)> Thank you for your help, Regards, <thank you, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth> Kim Re: Phosphate 8/9/07 Thank you for your help Rick! It is much appreciated. <No Problem> I have one question in response to your email below. I know every situation is different and it all depends upon each person's tap water, but about how many gallons of water will it take to exhaust DI resin? <Every system will have different hardness that affects the life of the resin. I average about 500g per cartridge with my water. You will have to wait and see. Also, please buy a TDS meter. They are under $20 USD.> I'm starting to wonder if I will spend more money in DI resin than I will in wasted water of an RO unit. Do you have a preferred brand/company to buy from? I've seen some two stage DI systems that have refillable (as opposed to recharging) resin. Sounds like you take the exhausted out, and put in the new resin. Is this acceptable? <do a Google search for DI resin refills, this will let you shop comparatively. Yes, just dump out the old and replace with the new and your good to go! I use the old resins and old carbon in my flower beds as fertilizer> Does this resin have a much shorter life, or is it all the same - just different approaches? <Purchase "Mixed Bed Resins" and yes they are all pretty much the same. The TDS meter will tell you when you have exhausted them. The color changing feature of the resin is not reliable for nutrient control. Once the TDS reading reaches 2ppm I change mine out.> Thanks again. Kind Regards, Kim <Hope I have helped, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth> Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka Mr. Firemouth 8/10/07 Thank you so much Rich. This has been a very big help to me. I have researched DI, and have one last question. Could you please compare/contrast for me the following? 1. A basic two stage DI with re-fillable mixed bed resin, such as http://www.thefilterguys.biz/di_systems.htm 2. A three stage DI with refillable cation and anion resins such as Kent Marine Deion 200-R http://www.kentmarine.com/waterfilters/deionizers/deion-200r.htm (I would not attempt to re-charge here......just replace) Obviously there is a big price difference between the two, but if the Kent system will produce better quality water, or all else equal - have longer lasting resins, then it may be worth the upfront cost. I just don't know. Any thoughts you have are GREATLY appreciated. Thank you for your patience, Regards, Kim <I am unsure about listing companies by name in the FAQ's, so BobF please moderate if necessary. I purchased my 7 stage RO/DI unit from the filter guys and they are a great bunch of guys. I reviewed the prices of each unit. The 3 stage unit would back up a KOLD-Steril unit well, but may be overkill. I own the Tsunami unit from Filterguys. A dependable product and will serve the same purpose. For resin replacement do a search for DI RESIN BULK, it will save some money annually. HTH, Rich aka Mr. Firemouth> Re: Phosphate - for Rich aka Mr. Firemouth 8/25/07 Hi Rich, I'm attaching our correspondence below since it has been a while. Since we have written, I decided to purchase a TDS meter before moving forward with buying a DI system. My tap water runs about 190 ppm TDS. Water coming out of the Kold Steril unit is not much different. (I don't know if that is normal or not.) Since my TDS is high, I'm second guessing my thought of adding DI to the Kold Steril, and just going right to RO/DI instead. (Kold Steril has been nothing but trouble since day one for me.) It seems to me that with the high TDS, I will blow through DI resin very quickly. Is that a correct assumption? If so, it seems to me that the cost of wasted water of a RO/DI system will be comparable, if not cheaper than the cost of replacing DI resin so frequently. Thoughts here? RO/DI is my best option - isn't it? (Even though it kills me that the $325 Kold Steril unit was one HUGE waste of money.) Regards, Kim <Kim, sorry you have not experienced the outcome you were looking for. The Kold-Steril unit IMO is great for Freshwater fish rooms, but because of the issues TDS have in Saltwater reef tanks, I agree you have purchased the wrong unit. Please revisit my recommendations for "The Filter Guys" and with any RO/DI system if you tap water PSI is below 60 then buy the recommended booster pump. The boosted pressure will make the unit more efficient and produce more water a day which means less waste water. I also prefer Warner Marines phoSar for phosphate removal.> <Thanks Rich aka Mr. Firemouth> Enhancing Nutrient Export Processes - 03/05/06 Hello, <Hi there! Scott F. here today!> I currently have a 90 gallon salt water tank. We have live sand and about 70lbs of live rock in our tank. We have an Eel, Trigger Fish, Grouper, Lionfish, and an Angel. <Quite a crowd for a modest sized tank. I hope larger quarters are in the near future for this bunch?> We are having a serious problem of phosphates. <Ahh...that can be solved.> We are getting a reading of 4-6 depending on the week. We been doing a 20 gallon water change every week, we cut back on food and made sure it was all being eaten. We feed them flake and frozen silversides. We have a skimmer along with bio balls. I am trying to find out the cause of my phosphate problem. I been told many different things and I don't know where to start. I was told live rock can cause phosphates then someone told me that since it is cured it can not. Somebody then told me it was my sand, but I have 4 inches of live sand. I am getting frustrated because I can not figure out what my cause of phosphates is. Can you please help me? I would appreciate it. Thanks Karrie <Well, Karrie- you are embracing some aspects of nutrient control/export, which will serve you well in reducing the phosphate, but you need to continue with some other steps. First, in my opinion, your aquarium is quite overcrowded. Even though you are maintaining a commendable water change schedule, the fact is that these fish are producing copious amounts of metabolic wastes that can severely compromise water quality. One of the first things you should do is to substantially reduce the bioload in this tank. Feeding of just about any kind of food will add some phosphates to the water. When you feed foods like Silversides, they are pretty "messy", and can release lots of processing and other "juices" into the water, which are very rich in phosphate. Pre-rinsing frozen foods before feeding, and avoiding simply dumping the foods in the tank can go a long way towards reducing phosphates. Live rock can have materials in it that become (or more correctly, accumulate) phosphate sources over time. However, live rock in and of itself is not your likely source. Do be careful to siphon visible detritus from the rock and other parts of the substrate. Finally, keep at it with the skimming and utilize chemical filtration media (activated carbon/PolyFilter) as a supplement to you other efforts. Reducing the population, continued water changes, aggressive protein skimming, and good feeding habits will all contribute to the defeat of this problem. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.> Phosphate removal - 03/11/2006 Hi Crew, I have a 180g FOWLR, the tank has been in existence for 5 years but I recently added 150 lbs of LR in Sept 2005. I have a large emperor angel, majestic angel, <I would stick with just one large pomacanthid in this size system... even it will outgrow a 180> Foxface, Heniochus angel, <Butterfly> a damsel, and three medium size clowns. About 20-30 snails, 4 skunk cleaner shrimp, 20-30 hermits and one neon goby. I have various anemone mushrooms all doing great and dividing. Lighting 320 w actinic white and 60 w actinic 12 hrs daily. Two skimmers one EuroReef RS 135 and AquaC EV180. Nitrates 25 ppm. <Mmm, would be better to get/keep this lower> I have 2 wet dry filters and between the main pumps and the powerheads in the tank I move ~ 2200 gal/ hour. ( For those wondering why 2 skimmers, these were the largest skimmers that I could fit under this tank, and the addition of the Euroreef to the existing Aqua C DID make a huge difference... Nitrates now stay at 25 PPM even with once monthly 25% water change ) <Please read on WWM re nitrate avoidance...> I also run a 57w UV. When I initially added the rock I noted that the tank went thru a period of time where it was growing some Cyanobacteria. <Very common> Now that the coralline algae has gone a long way to establish itself the amount of Cyano is minimal. I initially used PhosBan and brought my phosphates down to barely detectable. Over the past month my third batch of PhosBan has exhausted and my phosphates are again on the rise. Should I continue using the PhosBan ? <One approach... where might you read re others?> It would be no problem for me to do so, but is it really necessary, or better ? The system is really humming at this point. Thanks Jimmy <Keep reading Jimmy. Bob Fenner> Phosguard and SPS coral - 5/18/2006 Hey everyone, <Hello Marc> Just a question about some information I received from a local LFS. The guy told me that the continued use of Phosguard (by SeaChem) will slow the rate of growth of my SPS corals. Have you heard this before or had any experience with it and have you found any other 'chemical' absorption media or the like that can be an issue with corals??? <Marc, the SeaChem Phosguard is aluminum based and extended use can release potentially toxic aluminum into your tank. There are phosphate removing products that are not aluminum based and safe to use. One such product is ROWA phos.> Thanks <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)> Marc Kalk skimmer injection / Phosphate removal? 1/18/07 Crew- <Craig.> Just doing some reading in the Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook by Dr. Robert J. Goldstein < http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-2180612-6836823?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Dr.%20Robert%20J.%20Goldstein> : http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquarium-Handbook-Complete-Owners/dp/0812095987. Excellent book. The author suggests running the Kalk drip line directly into the skimmer injector, as this process precipitates phosphate in the skimmer effluent. <This is talked about in circles every now and then, and usually results in someone reminding the others that there is no direct removal of phosphates. Phosphates themselves aren't surfactants. They are the eventual result of dissolved organic compounds that eventually form the in-organic phosphates that algae and other forms of life utilize.> The author claims this method is several hundred times more effective than other methods. <Have not read this one... Maybe Bob would like to add a double-bracket to this one... but I think the normal dosing of Kalk is still very beneficial to skimmate production.> <<Agreed on this last. RMF. I don't think the mixing here can/will result in the stated "hundred times" improvement in PO4 precipitation... but would experiment re>> This book has largely been mostly dead-on in its material and independently verified by a triangulation of numerous other sources. Can we verify this tactic? <We? ...or you? I think that would be a great experiment for you. I am currently involved in the development stages of a very exciting project with biotelemetry supplementation with Rick Oellers that takes most of my critical thinking time. I recommend it!> Additionally, can anyone describe the precipitated phosphate? Running the drip line into my skimmer does produce considerably more skimmate, but the effluent appears white and I am wondering if I am just skimming particulate calcium carbonate suspended in the solution. Need/want pictures of what I am talking about? <No need, I know exactly what you are referring to. Am not sure about actual composition of skimmate with this characteristic, but if you do some searching on "saponification" you will better understand how Kalk and skimmers work together. HTH -Graham T.> cj Phosphate Levels Hi - I was wondering if you could briefly explain phosphate levels and how to control them. <You would be better of reading our coverage on www.WetWebMedia.com. This is a rather large question that cannot be answer briefly in an email. The simple answer is to control their input into the tank, i.e.. use purified water and not overfeed.> I have been constantly having problem with diatoms (brown growth mainly on the glass). I explained this to my LFS and they said I should test phosphate. <More likely high silicates (new tank?) or heavy handed use of iodine.> As it turns out it is .08 which indicates as Coral Growth Retarded (too high). What can I do the control this other than water changes (I change about 8 gallons every 7 days in a 72 gallon tank with 25 soft and 10 SPS corals which all very small-propagated tank raised corals). <General nutrient control measures; careful feeding, use of purified water, good/high quality/clean salt mix, aggressive nutrient export, etc.> My tank has a Kent Nautilus protein skimmer and Kent Biorocker. It also has a 260 watt power compact which I am in the process of replacing with a 380 watt VHO hood. I am not sure if stronger lighting may make my Phosphate situation worse. <It may given you even more algae troubles.> Please let me know. Also, one other quick question. Today for the first time I noticed a strong odor coming from my tank when I went to do a water change. It smelled like rotten eggs when I removed the glass lids. It wasn't over whelming but noticeable. <I have occasionally noticed a smell coming from growth on the glass covers. Do see if that is your origin of the smell. Otherwise, you may have some real problems appearing soon.> Again all my levels are good except phosphates. Thanks Ron <You are welcome. -Steven Pro> Phosphate question and skimming Anthony & Crew- Anthony helped me last time with drilling overflows in my new tank. I just ordered by 215 with six 1" overflows This tank is going to rock! Thanks again Mr. Calfo. <excellent, bubba><<One inchers? Nah! RMF>> I am now writing about my 20 gallon tank that has a bad outbreak of green hair algae. <almost always nutrient driven. I would be surprised if you said you skimmer has been giving you even 3 full cups of skimmate weekly, let alone daily skimmate> I know it had to do with a old DI cartage that I have replaced. <weak argument... true that source water can impart measurable nutrients that feed algae... but it never compares to the nutrients imported from daily/weekly feeding... poor skimming... weak water change schedule, etc> Also with nutrients in the water. I just replaced my PC lights and started using a phosphate sponge. <hmmm... OK. Treating the symptom though and not the problem, rather> No refugium or skimmer. <Ahem...> I know I should have both but I had to knock down a wall and use a garage for my new tank, I really have no room for a sump or refugium with this tank. <Tunze has a tiny top mount skimmer that firs discreetly on any aquarium ($120)... Aqua-C has the slimmest HOT skimmer on the market (that works well!).. The Remora ($160)... no refugium, sump or demolition crew needed. Just a skimmer> It has to go when the new tank is up and running so I don't want to sink the money into that right now. <my advice would be to not buy any livestock until you get a skimmer. Let the next $150 you spend be in plastic, not life forms> My question is about something I read on one of the message boards. I read that if you take all of the phosphates from the water with the new DI and sponge there is still phosphates in the hair algae itself. <most all algae... some more than others. True> That when I pull out the hair it will release phosphates into the water which will feed the hair left behind, Is that true? <sort of... why not starve it into submission by skimming... or... let a natural herbivore (urchins are killer for this) turn it into fecal pellets that a skimmer can export. Algae will be gone in two weeks with a good skimmer (adjusted properly)> I am going to add some macro algae in to the main tank and see if that will help. Am I on the right path? Thank you again for your time! Josh **Will you ever come to Hawaii (Maui) sometime this year??** <the crew is talking about it very seriously... I'm guessing in the second half of the year if so. Looking forward to it! Anthony> Phosphate in Fish Only Hi folks, <Right back at you, Don here> Moved to a new town.... City tap is all good, yet high O-phosphate..1.08mg/l. For a fish only marine ...110g is RO going to be a necessity and if so , why? Other friends in the area are running without it. I anticipate getting one for my reef but that is a year down the road....NEED FISH NOW! But little cash for RO/DI unit... Any thoughts would be helpful. As I said all other parameters on tap come up clean! <Phosphate will act as nutrient for algae. Many kinds of 'sponges' available to remove it, or if algae does not become a problem, just live with it> Marine Philodendrons? Hi, Have you ever heard of a method where a plant with outside roots (Philodendron) is used to extract nitrates and phosphates from water? The plant is placed above the aquarium and its roots are dipped in aquarium water... this is quite popular with Discus owners. I wonder if this would work with saltwater, too. I.e. will the Philodendron not get damaged if its roots are dipped in salt water? Thanks, Luke <Good idea... but one would have to use salt-loving plants (called Halophytes in science), not plants that can utilize only fresh. Bob Fenner> Marine Philodendrons? > Hi, > Have you ever heard of a method where a plant with outside roots (Philodendron) is used to extract nitrates and phosphates from water? The plant is placed above the aquarium and its roots are dipped in aquarium water... this is quite popular with Discus owners. I wonder if this would work with saltwater, too. I.e. will the Philodendron not get damaged if its roots are dipped in salt water? > Thanks, > Luke > <Good idea... but one would have to use salt-loving plants (called Halophytes in science), not plants that can utilize only fresh. Bob Fenner> Are they widely available fro purchase? <Have not seen such plants offered for sale per se, but have seen experiments (e.g. with Spartina foliosa) for this function> Is there a particular species that has roots like Philodendron that could be submersed into saltwater tank? <Take a read at a large library near you (please see here re such searches: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/litsrchart.htm or try your internet search engines with terms like "halophyte", "salt-loving plants". Bob Fenner> Thank you, Luke Phosphate solutions 7/31/03 Hi Anthony, I need your opinion. <my pleasure> My problem is my phosphates level: 2mg/l. <wow!> I know right approach is identifying where my phosphates are being imported from (source water, foods, etc) and screen it there first (better prefiltered FW, change of food, etc) and using specialized chemical filtrants to remove phosphates treat the symptom (phosphate) and not the problem <yes... correct my friend> but I've checked my RO water is phos free. <do check the foods you are using... soak them in water and test for phosphate before and after to see which one if any is especially contributory. Do the same for other aspects of the system until you identify the source (live sand sample, live rock sample, etc)> What can you tell me about ROWAphos? <it has a very good reputation but is again treating only the symptom and not the problem> Hi I'd like to know if 2 litres of Rowaphos are enough to reduce to 0.1 my PO4 level in my tank and how long they can last in your opinion. <I have little personal experience with this product alas... do seek a consensus form the big message boards like reefcentral.com here> I think to put them in my internal box filter which have 3500 (real it will be 2500) litres flow rate. <I suspect this will be very helpful indeed> I'll put some Caulerpa too for helping to reduce phosphates. <do consider a safer and more stable macroalgae like Chaetomorpha, Ochtodes or Gracilaria for this purpose> What do you think about and what do you suggest? Thanks Lorenzo <kind regards, Anthony> Media sans phosphates please Hello!! Sorry to bother you guys with this newbie question. I will make this real easy and short. My first question is: 1) Can you name a few carbon media that will not leach phosphate? << I think most carbon media is the same, but I use Black Diamond made by Marineland >> 2) Can you name a few phosphate remover media that will not leach phosphate? << All phosphate removers can leach phosphate, after they absorb it. However, they absorb far more than they will leach. Basically when it turns from a white color to a tan color, it is probably "used up" and should be replaced. Hope that helps. >> Thanks!!! << Adam Blundell >> Super High Phosphates I have a 55gal fish only tank with 30lbs of live sand and 60lbs of live rock. Recently our power was out for over four days. Since it came back on my Phosphates are very high at over 10ppm. I was wondering what's the best way to get them back down to a safe level? Does Phosphate removing media work? <Hello Kristen. Yes the phosphate removers do work but you need to check them again after two weeks to make sure the phosphate remover isn't exhausted.> Should I get some Macro Algae? (I can pick up some Caulerpa pretty easily) and how much do I need? <Yes, Caulerpa will use the phosphates, a couple clumps will do, it will soon spread and also help prevent nuisance algae growth.> Should I do a couple of big water changes? Or just more frequent small ones? <You should always do a 10% change weekly for the overall health of your tank.> Lastly, will the high Phosphates hurt my fish? (Domino Damsel, Maroon Clown, Princess Damsel, Black Damsel, Red Scat, 3 Black Mollies, and a Marigold Sailfin Molly) I've been told very high Phosphates will stress the fish and make them more susceptible to disease. Is this true? <No need to worry. James (Salty Dog).> Thanks again for all your help, Kristen High Phosphates First I would like to say hello to everyone at WetWebMedia <Welcome> My name is Mike, I have a 150gal fish only tank which has been up and running for about 2 years. My livestock seems to do very well, except for off and on bouts of parasites which seemed to be enhanced by my Powder Blues vulnerability to contract marine ick. After about a year of going mental trying to pacify this pretty fish with copper treatments, I reluctantly decided to sell him back to my local fish store where I purchased him. I'm telling you this just to let you know that there is some copper left in my water at this time. I haven't seen any signs of ick for months, hopefully that will not be a issue for a while for I'm not planning to add any more fish to the tank until I get rid of the copper in my system, and load my tank with live rock. However this brings us to jest of my problem (so) which I'm seeking your advice for. ( Which would be my phosphate/ slime problem.) <Mmm, okay... am sure you're aware of chemical filtrants to absorb the copper...> The problem I'm having is driving me nuts since I am very strict with my maintenance program (cleaning skimmer, water changes, etc.), one thing that I read in your book that sticks in my head is that aquariums are nothing more than a glorified septic tank, and I feel that my fish deserve the best that modern technology and my finances will allow. I don't think this is a feeding problem because the algae will start to go away to the point where my rocks are almost clear, then I do a water change and bingo within a week it starts to come back. Sounds like a water problem right? <Not necessarily... where else?...> Well let me give the list of specs, and you can hopefully give me a very very simple solution that might solve my $3500.00 eye-sore in the middle of my house, Which I refuse to give up on until it is loaded with pretty live rock and good coralline algae. SPECS Tank 150gal Sump 50gal Skimmer Aqua C adequate size Mag Drive 1800gal hr Power Heads 4- 802 in corners at bottom Lights 200 Watt Power Compact / 2- 60 watt on 12 hr a day Natural Light Tank sits in middle of room one side exposed to lots of sunlight Salt Mix - Instant ocean Water - R/O D/I Water Changes - 35 gal every 7-10 days Food 1/3 plastic spoon brine shrimp 1-1/2 rounded plastic spoon frozen Formula 1or 2 (1 time day) Vitamins - Boyd's on food LIVESTOCK 1 - Emperor Angle 7" 1 - Sailfin Tang 4-1/2" 1 - Fox Face 6" 1 - Convict Tang 3-1/2" 1 - Heniochus Butterfly 4" 1 - Flame Hawk 2" 1 - Skunk Clown 2" 1 - Anemone Clown 2" 1 - Half Orange Blenny 2-1/2" 4 - Green Chromis 2" pH 8.0 - 8.2 Phosphates tested with Red Sea test kit around 1.0ppm Tested R/O-D/I water reads .0ppm Nitrates 20.ppm Copper .10ppm Trying Seachem Phos Guard 2 days Well I hope I didn't forget anything which I'm sure I did, just want to say thanks.( Bob Fenner is a great inspiration to me) Thanks Mike <Mike, does sound/read like you're doing most everything "right"... limiting phosphate may serve you well here... I would try at least three avenues... in this order... Try the Kalk(wasser) trick... adding enough to elevate your pH to about 8.6... this will precipitate all soluble phosphate... immediately... and of course, just let time go by and your pH will fall back... Secondly, do make room for some macroalgae in that sump, and set a small light source over it... to be on when your tank lights are off... Thirdly, do consider utilizing some of the fancy schmancy iron-based phosphate chemical filtrant... or just plain PolyFilter... in your water flow path. Bob Fenner> |
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