Gelatin-based foods - 2/12/03
Greetings Krewe!!!
<whassup G-money?>
I continue to have algae problems in my 20 Gallon mini-reef. My water parameters are good - 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrates, 0 Nitrites, 8.2 Ph. I'm changing about 3 gallons per week with pre-mixed and aerated water.
<all good>
The only abnormal parameter is low Calcium. Will/can increasing Calcium in tank help with algae?
<the calcium does not per se (other than long term support of desirable calcifying algae that can out-compete nuisance forms)... however, some calcium like Kalkwasser can precipitate phosphates and raise pH which both immediately inhibit some nuisance algae>
What's the best method for this size tank?
<likely bigger water changes actually>
I have been doing my best to reduce nutrient import. I feed twice weekly with a mix of Formula 1, Formula 2, and Mysis.
<The Formula foods are good... but messy>
Export is via Remora Pro skimmer and macro algae in hang-on refugium.
<awesome>
Today's FAQ's have a reply from Anthony in reply to draining frozen
food: "Gelatin based foods cannot be treated this way... of course, gelatin based foods are also catch-22 and arguably not the best fare either. Best regards, Anthony"
I am doing my best to drain my food, but I'm still having trouble. Are the Formula brand foods gelatin-based?
<yep>
Am I suffering from gelatin-based food syndrome??
<likely not for the fine skimmer you have can temper it... there is some other nutrient issue at hand IMO. Does the skimmer work well (several cups of skimmate weekly in this case?)>
One more quick question - I'm having trouble finding a good method to block large pieces of algae and bubbles from flowing back into the tank while still allowing copepods and other small organisms to return to the main tank. Thoughts, ideas?
<not sure... is this an upstream or downstream refugium? Assumedly upstream? At any rate, neither the bubbles or algae should exist... we need to stop them at the source. I fear that your algae is Caulerpa or some other easily fragmented form (even the fine Gracilaria). Do consider a more stable macro in this case like Chaetomorpha>
Thanks! -Jeremy
<best regards, Anthony>

Feeding Planktivores
Thanks for your reply. I decided to go with the Centropyge ferrugata and the Cirrhilabrus scottorum. In fact they are in their new home. Of course the wrasse is in the back hiding. Since I do not have an upstream refugium at this time, what would be your suggestions on feeding my wrasse and Sunburst?
<thawed frozen mysids, Gammarus and Pacifica plankton can be the staple. Supplement with any dry food possibly/taken. Also offer Sweetwater Plankton (incredible jar food for Anthiines).>
Doug
<best regards, Anthony>

Sweetwater (brand) zooplankton
Hi there,
I recently purchased a small bottle of this product from a reputable e-tailer just to try it out. When I received the bottle , it showed no instructions as to how much, how little, when, where...... you get the idea! 
<its fish food, dude <G>... what kind of instructions are you looking for? Every tank's fishes sizes and stocking level is different and so every feeding portion will be different. Generally feed only enough food in small frequent portions so that your fish can consume most at or near the surface. Avoid allowing much to settle to the bottom (an indication of feeding too much or too fast)>
Are any of you guys familiar with this product? 
<yep... all of us and several of us absolutely rant and rave about how much we love it. A great product in my opinion>
If so, please enlighten me as to the proper use, or non-use of said product. The only instructions that are on the bottle are refrigerate after opening, well duh!!!!
<it is a fresh food product... very important to keep refrigerated and use within just a couple of months>
Any insight will be greatly appreciated. thanks again, ce
<best regards, Anthony>

Re: Popeye and Bullies
Hi Anthony,
Any word from Bob yet regarding medicated foods for pop-eye ?
<Mmm, here I am. There really aren't any specific antibiotics for exopthalmic conditions... As you've likely discussed, most events are environmental (poor water quality of many kinds, physical trauma) mediated... and "cures" of the nature of improved water quality, nutrition, care... and time going by. There are recorded cases of microbial co-involvement and even parasitic causes of "Pop-eye"... and some writers have promoted the use of gram-negative antibiotics (Chloramphenicol, Oxytetracycline... and others) introduced through food intake, injection (not just placed in the water or administered through baths)... See authors/works by Nelson Herwig, Edward Noga for about the sum total of what has been tried here. Bob Fenner>
Thanks again,
Chuck Spyropulos

Feeding with frozen food
I currently put a cube of Formula 1 in a plastic container in the refrigerator to thaw out before feeding it to my fish. 
<a good idea>
I usually takes about a week to go through 1 cube due to the fact that I only have a couple of fish. Is this ok? 
<it is a bit of a long time... and it really sounds like underfeeding no matter how small your fishes are>
Will the food go bad in the refrigerator if left in there to long? 
<I suspect that you are OK, but I'd honestly suggest using a little more food or just by the flat packs in stead of the cubes so that you can break and thaw smaller pieces daily. It just sounds like a bad idea to keep it thawed that long>
If this is not good what is the best way to feed my fish and corals with frozen food?
Shaun Nelson
<best regards, Anthony>

Holidays and Feeding and things!
Hi Anthony and Crew,
<Steven in this morning.>
Hope you are well, I have been reading the WWM pages practically daily since our last chat(s) but have not needed to ask you anything else until now. I am going away for two weeks on Holiday (Italy, I cannot wait!).
<It is lovely! I have been there twice and want to take my wife for a third trip.>
As a quick recap I have two 5 foot tanks, one FOWLR containing 1 Lipstick tang (7"), 1 yellow tang (3 1/2"), 1 pyjama tang (3"), 1 green wrasse (7"), and 2 clowns 2" each. The other tank is a reef with Various Mushrooms, Pulsing Xenia, Leather Coral, Colt Coral, a blue Carpet Anemone (the rehousing into a species tank as you suggested is planned for after my return from holiday) a cleaner shrimp, scallop (not my choice, an unexpected present, I have since found this is not good but I have to try now!) and 5 small fish (2 clowns, 1 red hawk, 1 Firefish and 1 Gramma). Also 3 Sally Lightfoots plus red legs and turbo snails. I plan to do my routine 10% water changes the day before I leave. I have made arrangements with a friend to mind the tanks for me and have shown them how to feed the Carpet Anemone and everyone else as best I can, but how often is the least the Anemone, the fish, and the other inhabitants of both tanks can be fed.
<I would feel comfortable with a schedule of every other day. Please leave for tank watcher premeasured portions and literally hide the rest of the food. The film cans for 35 mm rolls work well as do the pill boxes with each day of the week marked (my favorite).>
I normally feed the FOWLR tank twice a day (dried in the morning, frozen at night, and bits of fish for the wrasse plus algae strips for the tangs). The invert tank is as you know more involved with the different foods needed (i.e. small bits of fish for the Carpet, Sally's, Cleaner Shrimp, and Red Hawk, dried and frozen for the Firefish and clowns and Marine Snow for the Corals and Scallop etc.). This sounds a lot when I read it but all params are o.k. except for Phosphate and Nitrate which is in my source water until I get my RO unit as discussed with you already.
<It also could be coming from your feeding as it sounds like a lot to me, too.>
All planned for when I get back! I want to avoid the risk of over feeding and polluting the tank by cutting down on this while someone else is doing the feeding. Can you suggest a reasonable minimum that will keep everything alive and sort of happy until I return?
<See notes above.>
Your help is much appreciated - many thanks. Jenny
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Food Preservatives
Dear Bob (Or whoever),
Do the preservatives and other nonnutritive additives in fish foods pose a problem? For example, OSI uses sodium silico aluminate as an anti-caking agent; I wouldn't dump either silica or aluminum in my reef tank. Would this be a difficulty after build up over time? Thanks! Pam S.
P.S. Is "nonnutritive" a word? It should be.
<Yes, is a term in use, usually hyphenated ("non-nutritive"). And not much to worry about here... I used to have the same concern... years back... as some foods are "stabilized" with copper compounds, other worrisome materials. But these are of low concentration, transient effect. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater vs. Saltwater Mysis Shrimp
Hello Mr. Fenner,
<Steven Pro here today.>
I have read on your website that you and your counterparts say that Mysis shrimp are the best food for saltwater fish and other saltwater creatures.
<Not "the best", but a very good food.>
My question is which Mysis are better in your opinion, saltwater grown Mysis or freshwater from Canada?
<Saltwater Mysis for saltwater fish and freshwater Mysis for freshwater fish.><<Ehh, doesn't matter IMO. RMF>>
I have been trying to find Mysis in my area for a reasonable price since my LFS's have stopped carrying the 16 oz. flat packs and have gone to the cubed 3.5 oz packs for the same price as the 16 oz. Rip off?
<Depends, many people prefer the convenience of the cubes packs. That is all I sell my customers, so I can tell them one cube per day or something like that.>
I have found two places in FAMA that will supply me with the Mysis shrimp but one is freshwater from Canada and the other is saltwater from California. They both say that theirs is the best and I am asking for your input. The freshwater will be cheaper overall for the same amount as the saltwater supplier. They both have to be shipped overnight and the minimum amount that I need to buy is 10 lbs. of the salt or 19 lbs. of the freshwater. What do you think?
<See notes above.>
Thanks for your input, Jeff Reed
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Mysids
Hi and thanks for the reply! Would it be a bad thing to feed my salties the freshwater Mysis? 
<not at all... just don't feed it to exclusion. Lacks marine nutrients>
Different nutritional values or is it because it's composed of fresh water? 
<the former>
Thanks, Jeff Reed
<kindly, Anthony>

Brittle Star, freshwater/marine algae, euryhaline sea minkees
Hi, Bob and experts,
<<And hello to you...>>
I just brought two brittle stars and I would like to know whether is it safe to keep in a DSB ? One is a Banded Serpent Star (Ophiolepsis superba) and one is normal brittle star (Ophiocoma sp). Both are about 3-4 inch big. <<As long as they aren't green brittle stars
[these can be predatory] you should be all set. These seastars really don't do much below the surface of the sandbed.>>
2. Just curious to know whether a fresh water algae (seaweed) is able to grow in salt water ? <<No, I don't think so... different osmotic balance required in cell walls, etc.>>
3. One last thing, I planning to keep brine shrimp. Wonder I will stay alive in saltwater? <<You mean like Sea Monkeys? No, they need true brine.>> and if yes, can I add those stuff into my reef tank after it hatched? <<You could add it like food, but I wouldn't add these as inhabitants. The resulting die-off could spell disaster.>>
Thanks
Regards
Danny
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Assurance (Ma'at, balance, dynamic homeostasis, lazy non-feeding behavior...)
Good Day Gentleman,
Quick question to re-assure my methodology, if I have NO fish in my coral tank, a 3 1/2 inch sand bed (assume live since it has been in tank with high quality live rock for about year and seeded once),
and 1 1/2 pounds per gallon of live rock, a little Caulerpa here and there of various types (saw blade, racemosa, Halimeda, and Mexican sp.) plus various leather corals, cnidarians, zoanthids, chili coral, a few
gorgonians would the tank produce enough food for itself (the corals that need additional feeding) over time?
<No, you will still need to add some food.>
Of course initially, feeding some blended Spirulina pellets (even not blended would break down over time to various particle sizes?) and trimming various Caulerpas as well as other good maintenance and husbandry practices until the amphipods and copepods and any other various diatoms and plankton were to develop. Sound like a recipe for success or disaster?
<Not a disaster, but you will need some additional input to the system.>
Peace, Paul
<You too. -Steven Pro>

Feeding
<<Hello, JasonC here.>>
Bob, my clownfish seems to have a big belly especially after he eats. <<So do I... ;-) >> What can I look for to see if this is an internal problem? <<Nothing comes to mind short of an x-ray.>> He is an aggressive eater and goes nuts when I get close to the tank for feeding time. My Yellow Tang is about 4" long and he grazes all day off of LR and eats the food I give him. It seems that I can see his ribs. All of the stuff that he consumes in a day he should be fat. <<Fat fish aren't really what you are after... and in the tangs, a little rib showing is somewhat normal. Tangs typical expend a lot of energy scooting around all day.>> I mix the food up for him a little bit. <<A good plan.>>
When I feed I will add some green veggie stuff( I forgot what it is called) one day then the next day add Omega One and then the next day add Mysis Shrimp. I alternate the food to give some balance, I try to spoil them. <<Well the balance part is good, spoiling is not. Quite likely you are already feeding more that they would ever see in a day in the wild.>> Is it normal for him to look this way? Am I not feeding him enough? What can I do? I don't want to overfeed and cause ammonia problems. <<Or other problems. No worries. Perhaps don't feed so much - once a day is usually plenty for the fish you list, and obviously the Tang is finding other things to eat.>>
Thanks
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Feeding the reef
Hiya, is it ok to feed minced scallops to my reef & fish. I've read something about them but forgot where, saying it wasn't a wise idea, so I just ask to make sure.
<as a filter feeder and low down on the totem pole, scallops are more likely to contain contaminants like heavy metals. If bought from a pet food mfg, I'd feel comfortable... but from the grocery store... perhaps raw cocktail shrimp would be better :)>
the corals just LOOOOVE the recipe from your book :-)...it made a huge improvement on my Trachyphyllia.
<excellent to hear... Bob is a wise fellow indeed. With kind regards, Anthony Calfo WWM crew>
thank you. Stefi/UK

Diet
Recently, I started feeding my marine fish Mysis shrimp together with Spirulina soaked in Zoe. Soon thereafter, having switched from Formula One & Two to this, the Purple Tang developed Lateral Line or Hole In the Head Disease.
<Probably not the cause, but not helping matters either.>
Though the Mysis has lots of protein, might this be the cause of this affliction and should I cease using it in deference to a greater mixture of frozen food along with lettuce occasionally?
<Lettuce is terrible. Keep feeding what you are, plus add the Formula II back and get some Nori and vitamins to soak your food in addition to the Selcon.>
THANKS, Stephen Pace
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Fish Food Questions
>Dear Bob,
>It was good to see you and your guests last week. Please let me know when you want a behind the scenes tour. I'm happy to serve.
<Great. Thanks Fernando>
>I was hoping to get some of your advice on an idea I had. Recently I've been playing around with a recipe for a gel food, geared toward surgeon and angelfishes (heavy on the algae side). I've tried it with fishes here at the aquarium and it seems to be well liked, not only surgeons and angels but other families (damsels, some B'flys, Serranids).
<Okay... you may not know, the original formula foods (later by Ocean Nutrition) were at one time formulated/tested underneath the old pier at SIO...>
>Anyway, I have basically two questions: First, is it a worthwhile endeavor to try and get into marketing fish food? (I could start with samples to local stores).
<Yes... IMO/E... still a viable possibility... many folks have come out with foods in the last few years... and have made money doing so... I do think it can be done>
>Second: One of the ingredients is "Cyclop-eeze" copepods. Is it possible to include a brand named product (Cyclop-eeze) within my brand of gel food? I guess I would have to find out from Argent but thought would ask you.
<Do ask Argent Lab.s re... some variation could likely be worked out/in if they have reservations>
>Any thoughts you could offer would be greatly appreciated. I've been thinking of call Chris Turk as well but thought I would get your insights first.
<Will you make these extruded types? Drops? Have you looked into packaging as yet? Let's chat this through and make some visits together with samples and see what others say, think. Bob Fenner>
>Best Regards,
>Fernando
Fernando Nosratpour
Senior Aquarist
Birch Aquarium at Scripps

Re: Fish Food Questions
Thank you Bob! I haven't thought to far ahead as how to package. I'm still working on getting the balance right (gelatin vs. food). Will keep you posted!
<Do look into other binders like alginates rather than gelatins... We can talk this over... but the bulk/ier local product as an emulsifier is much more palatable to the whole system. Experiment here, and with some other formulas for resale (like Sanjay's).>
Thanks again.
I value your opinion greatly!
Sincerely,
Fernando
Sr. Cabana Boy
Birch Aquarium
<Hah! Now I can't get the Copa Copa Cabana song out of my head! Bobaloo!>

Feed fresh shrimp from Safeway?
Dear Bob,
Can we feed Fresh Shrimp from the Safeway seafood counter to our inverts? It seems the frozen shrimp at the LFS is extremely expensive and not nearly as fresh. Sincerely. Rachel
<Yes... most all of us "old salts" either use such shrimp (sans cocktail sauce of course) whole for large organisms, chop it up, or make into blends for feeding our captive marines. 

Frozen Food & Skimming
Dear WWM Crew,
Hope everyone had a good holiday. I have a question about some frozen foods I had ordered. I decided to stock up on some frozen foods from an online retailer and everything had arrived defrosted. Probably not a
good idea to order in 95 degree heat. The Formula One, Two, Spirulina and Angel Formulas were still cool, but they were almost like soup. The clams and squid were pretty much thawed as well. The dry ice was completely evaporated also. I have re-froze everything and it looks fine but I called two pet shops and they both told me to dump it. So, valuing your advice more I'm asking: Can this food be salvaged or should I dump it?
<Dump it my friend.>
One more question if you would. I started using a Polyfilter about a month ago, and ever since my skimmers produce very little skimmate now. Would I be better off not using the Polyfilter and let the skimmers go to work?
<This maybe unrelated. Do try cleaning your skimmer and its pump thoroughly, including a run in a hot water and vinegar bath to remove deposits. This usually vastly improves performance on skimmers that have been running for over six months.>
The Polyfilter is not necessary so I'm wondering if it would be better to let the skimmers take the crud out before it has a chance to break down. Thanks in advance, Mike
<Have a nice evening. -Steven Pro>

Re: High ammonia levels.
Dear Bob,
Was talking to my stockist about using "Nori", and they asked me if I was sure that it didn't contain oil. Bought it from a super-market in a sealed pack, made by a company called Sanchi, and it simply reads: ingredients: Nori (Porphyra tenera). Green light?
<Yes... nothing else added here>
You suggested I used this stuff whilst I was waiting for my ammonia level to go down, now at about 0.6 (much better!). And is this the same type of low pollutant stuff as purple seaweed (Porphyra umbilicalis), which I was already using?
<Bingo>
Also, the patches of brown/red algae have really started coming up on pretty much everything, which the blenny loves (bicolor, & my other fish is a little lipstick tang), and while I recognize this as a sign of "life establishment",
<Yes, well put>
& bearing in mind that you advised me not to clean anything till the ammonia was 0, can you give me any tips about controlling it? 
<Yes sir. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/algaeasfriend.htm>
Should it turn green? My system is now nearly 11 wks old.
Your advice as always will be much appreciated. Hamish, UK.
<You're on a/the right track. Bob Fenner>

Livesand and Frozen Foods
Hello again,
<Hello>
Two questions that I've been wondering about for a while:
First, is it okay to occasionally stir up the top layer of live sand? Some gets stirred up when I clean algae off the glass, and other times I give a small area a stir on the surface to kick up debris. If it's okay, is the resulting temporary white cloud harmful to my fish?
<Do not go too deep. I will occasionally lightly dust the top 1/4" to get rid of diatoms.>
Secondly, my puffers love frozen shell-on shrimp. Is it a problem to actually feed it to them frozen -- as in, not thawed? In addition to the shell I thought that it being frozen would also help to wear down their teeth, but if it is a bad practice then I will thaw from now on.
<Interesting, I would think you would be ok, but perhaps just thaw the food anyway. It will give you sometime to let the food soak in vitamins/supplements. I like Boyd's Vita-Chem and American Marine Selcon.>
Thanks so much, Karen
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Bob's Recipe
Bob, I have been using your fish food recipe for years. It has been incredible for me. I have a couple of questions because of something that has popped up in a local discussion.
<Okay>
Fatty acids - Omega 3 being more important than protein in fish food..
<Not more important, but a group of essential nutrients. Both are important, necessary for fish health, growth, reproduction.>
This led me to wonder about your recipe. Is the gelatin there to bind the oil, as well as keep the puree in some larger chunks for the fish ?
<Both actually. Bob Fenner>
Deb Hadford

Foods & Feeding
Hi All,
Thanks for the last advice. I have a question on feeding. 120gal reef tank with 120 pound of good live rock. PH 8.2, Ammonia and Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5 ppm, temp. 24 centigrade, salinity 1.025. Tank established now for one month. Cycle complete (all the major water chemistry moves out of the way anyway). I have a Kole Tang, pair of clowns, Coris wrasse, pair of coral banded shrimp, Sarcophyton (1), Lobophytum (1) and a piece of mushroom coral. The Kole and clowns only take brine shrimp, which I have read on your site, has little/no nutritional value.
<Correct>
The Kole also spend it's day grazing on plenty of Caulerpa algae. I have not seen the shrimp eat anything but they do pick at the rock (maybe copepods?).
<Perhaps, but many other things too.>
I have recently offered mussel and chopped prawns which all corals seem to like, particularly the mushroom but the fish do not touch. I have also tried not feeding for a day or so, but still no luck. I am careful about how I prepare/chop the foods washing the board and knife down with saltwater before using. I also mix the chopped foods into a solution of the tank water to break it up into bite-size first.
<Sounds good>
Any suggestion as to how to wean these fish onto something more nutritional?
<Pick up some frozen Mysis shrimp or plankton and when feeding the brine shrimp, mix some of the new stuff in. Basically, try to trick them into sampling it.>
Is brine shrimp really as bad as I read?
<Yes. Live baby brine are pretty good, but the adults have no real nutritional value.>
Thanks again, Jordon
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

DIY Selcon?
Sorry if my previous e-mail finds its way to you and this is a repost.
<Haven't seen it>
I found this recipe for DIY Selcon on a message board. Is this comparable to the brand name? If not, is it safe as an additive to frozen/dry foods?
<Mmm, yes to the latter. Not exactly the same components, formulation.>
125ml pure cod liver - menhaden oil (or a mixture of omega 3 fatty acids such as DHA/EPA) add 12 ml lecithin 2 grams Spirulina powder (20 microns) and 100 ml RO water.
Blend all this until its like a pudding consistency.
Thanks in advance.
Ted
<Bob Fenner>

Feeding Puffers
Hi there. <<Hello, JasonC here...>>
We have a porcupine puffer and a Humu Humu trigger and we were wondering if we are feeding them enough. <<if I were a trigger or a puffer, the word "enough" would not be part of my vocabulary.>>
Unfortunately being in the Netherlands there are limited feeding options. So far we have been feeding them clams...(not the shell) And we feed them 3 times a week, let's say 4 clams for Spikey, and 2 for Magnum if he is lucky....... <<and I'd be a lucky trigger to be eating clams all the time, but depending on the size of the clam, you might be able to feed a half-clam or less per day and still meet the nutritional needs of the fish.>>
This has been the advice since we bought them but recently we found out that this guy is a scam.....
<<uh oh... well, no harm done by the clams - this is much better food by a factor of 100 [or more] than brine shrimp, which is what many people in the US are told they should feed. So really, you're not doing so badly.>> Can you help..  We once in a while feed them frozen sardines and shrimp (of course, defrosted ;-)
<<ok - you might want to try chopping/blending/mixing those three things in a blender or food-processor into a chunky, lumpy goo, and then freeze into a sheet, ice cubes, or something similar. This would also be an excellent opportunity to add some vitamins to the mix. You could then thaw a half cube or so and use that to feed a more precise portion. Check out the reading at:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/feeding.htm >> The reason why we don't feed so much is that we always have high nitrate... <<yes, good plan, although you may/might want to change the water a little more often if the nitrates are always on the rise.>> let me know?
Thanks in advance Wendy
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Friends Don't Let Friends Feed Brine Shrimp
Thanks again for the advice, I have a follow up question or two:
I bought some Spirulina enriched Frozen Brine shrimp and some frozen Krill. Would these work for feeding the Frogspawn & Open Brain?
<The brine shrimp is of the right size, but nutritionally lacking. The krill is good, but too large. Please tear into smaller pieces.>
Next question is how to feed it to them. What is the best method? I thought about thawing and mixing with tank water and then blowing lightly at them with a turkey baster?
<Sounds good.>
Also, I have a purple-Tip Sebae anemone, should I do the same with
it?
<Yes>
Same food and same method?
<Yes>
Last question is how often of each. I am thinking about twice a week. 
<2-3 times per week>
Thanks!
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Copper sulfate in food
Today I tried to feed Kent Platinum reef pellet food to my fish. My pepp. and cleaner shrimp ate it instead. They loved it! I then read ingredients, and copper sulfate is listed, along with other vitamins, etc... Could this harm my inverts and my copper sensitive porcupine puffer? Thanks for your help, Laura
<I doubt that it is enough to harm the fish, although all best are off on the inverts. Nonetheless, with so many great food choices out there... consider and alternative since you have copper sensitive livestock just to play it safe. Kind regards, Anthony Calfo>

Feeding follow-up
Thanks Anthony, Even though you are a buzz kill, I knew you'd say that :)
<hehe... I've also been called the Marine Nazi (like the Soup Nazi on Seinfeld) for my passionate attitude toward aquariology>
I WISH I could set up another tank. I have another stupid question about another fish you told me not to get. My Paddlefin wrasse is doing pretty well with the Emperor. It still gets chased, but not as much and my live rock is masterfully placed with places that each fish can hide in and others can't access. The wrasse has also excavated quite a network of tunnels under the live rock. Anyway, my question: On feeding the wrasse: I know that it needs mucho protein which I try to give it, but not every day. I feed everyone plankton and/or mysids 3 or 4 times a week. Every day I feed either green or brown or red algae. Every day I feed flakes. And on days I don't feed plankton/mysids, I feed Angel Formula or Formula Two. 
<do focus on crustacean matter for more than half of the diet... protein in the chitinous shells>
The thing is, yesterday as an example, the wrasse ate some scraps of Angel Formula (whatever fell out of the angels mouth) and he ate a bunch of green algae. Do these greens have any value for a wrasse
or do they just not digest it properly. 
<yes, indeed and quite natural as the shrimp and crabs the wrasse eat in the wild have bellies full of algae. Good for part of the diet>
Should I be getting some protein in there every day? Ideas?
Thanks pal. Rick
<just focus on the shrimp/crabs for the main part of the diet and mix it up nicely just like you've been doing for the rest. Best regards, Anthony>

Feeding
Hello, just heard from the LFS that I should feed my fish only once every three days. They say because the live rock provides a lot of the food already. Is this true?
<it depends on the fish, quality of the rock, health and maturity of the tank and more. If you tank is less than one year old it is not accurate to apply to your setup. Best regards, Anthony>

Feeding....
Good morning,
<Good morning to you.>
I have decided that feeding time here at the zoo is getting out of hand (between hens and geese and horses and cats and dogs and canaries and plants and people and now fish). I got a little nervous last night about the feeding thing in the tank so I thought I'd ask for some advice. You've heard from me before. I have the anemone and flame scallop and clown and yellow tail and a lot of clean up crew animals..(75 gal tank...newly cycled but cycled, live rock, good lights, protein skimmer, charcoal filters in sump) I have been feeding the flame and anemone and any coral like stuff on the rocks DT's Phytoplankton. I squirt it around the animals every other day per instructions on the bottle. About every 3 days or so (sometimes 4 days) I feed the anemone about 1/3 inch of a shrimp. I cut a piece off a frozen raw shrimp, put it in a cup with some warm water and a few drops of marine vitamins, chop it very finely and pour off most of the water vitamin stuff after it soaks and then put it in a turkey baster and skirt it toward the anemone...He loves it and the rest of the fans go wild...shrimp, crabs, fish and all else grab what he doesn't get. On the shrimp night I also put a little flake food in for the fish BEFORE the shrimp....my theory is that the clown and other stuff won't stuff themselves with the shrimp stuff if they get a normal meal first. I think that this might be a mistake, they might just eat eat eat and consider that night is Thanksgiving.....there is really quite a frenzy for the shrimp.
<Not a mistake really, but perhaps they just are not completely filled by the flake food. A good idea and attempt though either way.>
Every night I put in a pinch of flake food....I am monitoring the calcium, adding iodine, some Kent's vitamins, all per instructions on the bottles. I have been checking my nitrates and all is well and it seems that all the food is used up....100 blue legged hermits and 50 snails and 1starfish and 4 shrimp and those pesky crabs that I have yet to catch seem to do the trick. I hope....but the advise about feeding the anemone is varied......never.....small frequent feedings....once a week....HE IS GETTING BIG and looks great.
<Several times per week is good. Look for the two articles written on the captive care of anemones on the WWM site. They were both written by fellow hobbyists who have had some long term success with anemones.>
The scallop does not move around and is attached to some rock, near the overflow (smart little guy I think) but not in the most light (an outcropping of rock shades him a bit).
<These scallops are non-photosynthetic and do not need light to thrive, only regular feedings with appropriate foods.>
We tried to move him once but he went right back so we have left him there. Would he like a little of the shrimp stuff and if a bigger piece gets near him is that alright?
<He would enjoy some meatier fare, although probably something smaller like baby brine shrimp (there is a world of difference between baby and adult brine shrimp as far as nutritional value, the later being nearly useless).>
What about a little clam juice for him and how much?
<You could experiment, but use cautiously so as not to promote algae through increased dissolved organics.>
What about a little clam juice for the anemone?
<Probably not too useful. Can absorb nutrients out of the water column from the fish feedings.>
Should I alternate a bit..? For all I know with all these animals in the tank all is well but I get so nervous about overfeeding (its the horse keeping in me) yet it seems that in order to get all the critters what they need individually you sometimes have an over lap. And I've just started stocking the tank! To me it sometimes looks like a lot of food.. Any advise for me?...
<As long as everything is getting consumed, none sitting on the bottom, not too much getting sucked up into the filters, and no nuisance algae popping up, you are probably doing ok.>
And finally, we are starting to get that pretty pink/purple coralline growing on the glass. Like it in the back but not in the front...it's tough to get off! Can we use a razor to scrape the glass? I tried a credit card but that didn't work very well....what kind of metal will hurt the anemone if introduced to the tank? That is what I was worried about with the razor...you know the kind that you scrape windows with....
<I do not like razors because they can scratch the glass. Kent makes a plastic scraper thing that I like. I have also heard people using acrylic snow scrapers, never used.>
Once again, thank you so much for your help and have a great day...Helene
<You too Helene. -Steven Pro>

Beginner Feeding Question
I've had my tank going for about one month now...my question is regarding feeding...in the article on www.wetwebmedia.com it says to feed the fish 2 or 3 times a day and to feed them what they can
eat in five minutes....I've also been told to feed them once a day what they can eat in 2 minutes...as well as many times in between. How do I decide which advice to follow?
<Really it depends on the fish. Groupers and Lionfish should be fed several times per week. If you have fish that would naturally forage all day for food, several small feedings each day would be more appropriate. If the food hits the bottom or gets sucked up into the filters, you gave them too much.> 
Thanks for your time, James
<You are quite welcome. -Steven Pro>

Fish feeding stimulants
I found your e-mail address on an article about fish nutrition on the internet. I was wondering if you could answer a question for me- do you know of any proven feeding stimulants for fish on the market today (to be applied to fish foods)?
<Mmm, offhand (am in Australia the last few weeks) some of the water soluble vitamins (the B's especially) and some fatty acids... Is there an application you have in mind? Bob F, back in the States in a few days>Thank you in advance,

Re: Seahorses, Aquatic Nutrition, UVs, WWF Chatforum
Hi Bob,
<Hello. Sorry for the delay in response. Have been away>
Thank you for the responses to the questions in my last e-mail. Now in response to your question.......
>How would you improve it?>
I would like to see more species specific information for instance recommended temp ranges, size, minimum tank size, ease or difficulty of care, diet, availability in the hobby, reef safe, and any other tid bits tips or hints relevant to keeping the fish. I am a director on seahorse.org responsible for moderating the basic, tankmate and general forums. I refer to your site frequently for information needed to assist with my responses to posts.
<Good ideas>
Please do not take this the wrong way, but the information presented on seahorses seems dated to me as is much of the information currently available. Thank goodness for the Horse Forum column in FAMA.
<Yes, dated and better source>
I am so looking forward to your contribution. There are also a couple of books currently in varying stages of the publication process. One by Pete Giwojna.
<Ah, a credible, lucid source>
The advent of captive bred seahorses has made keeping them healthy, happy and thriving in captivity a reality. They are so much easier to keep now.
<Immensely so>
They were my first marine aquarium experience over 3 years ago and I would have never considered the possibility prior to Ocean Riders. Despite my problems in my other tanks I have done very well with the horses. I have actually found them to be easier than other marine fish or many of the FW fish I have kept. Please forgive me if you are aware of any of this information. There are 18 species currently being bred by 3 commercial aquaculturists, Ocean Rider which I have noticed mention of on your site a few times, Tracy & David Warland of South Australian Seahorse Marine Services, and Ocean Oddities. 7 of the species are available to the hobbyist, at this time, from either Ocean Rider or FFE for between 39 and 150 dollars. The available species include, kuda, erectus, reidi, abdominalis, whitei, barbouri, and procerus. The additional 10 species are soon to be released, in the next year or so. FFE has also said they are expecting some CB pipefish any time now. The seahorses all readily accept frozen foods and are actually quite hearty and disease resistant. Most of us feed Mysis relicta, a completely freshwater species of Mysidae, manufactured and prepared by Piscine Energetics @ www.mysis.com. Are you familiar with the product? Many of the seahorse.org members are new to marine aquaria. They have been quite successful with seahorses and their appropriate tankmates. So, I would like to see more current information on seahorses that pertains to the CBs available now.
<Thank you for this important information re Hippocampus husbandry>
Karen Etling one of my esteemed seahorse.org curators is writing an article for your site I understand. I think that is great!! Chris Burns and Pete Giwojna both have written several articles maybe they would be willing to share them on your site for the seahorse enthusiasts.
<We greatly welcome these inputs, links or other access to their ideas, discoveries>
I recently posted in the chat area. I think that an edit and delete post option, available only to the moderator or author of the post once it has been posted, would be helpful.
<Will send this note on to Zo for comment>
I find the format of the FAQ's and question/answer areas a bit hard to read for me personally. For me, the information would be more easily read if the answers to the questions were separated out from the text of the letter some how......maybe another color, font. or indented?
<An excellent idea... we simply have not had time to do much editing of this content.>
I do like very much that the questions are ALL answered as they are asked, and as a result nothing is missed, a function of the format I am sure.
<More so of commitment on all our behalf>
There was one place I noticed where the questions and the answers were in more of an alternating paragraph style. I found that easier to read than when the answers were inserted into the text of the letters.
<I see>
I really like the lighthearted way in which information is presented and questions are answered, It is very nonjudgmental and non-threatening. I am sure you guys are all much busier due to that. I know it's a lot easier for me to ask when my questions are answered so promptly in the previously mentioned manner. I am actually quite embarrassed about my errors, but was never made to feel bad about it by you and your staff all seem to respond in a similar nonjudgmental and non-threatening manor! Very important qualities IMO for learning to take place.
<For all of us>
That's all I can think of at the moment. If something else comes to mine I will send it your way, if you like.
<Please>
I have a few more questions if that is OK?
<Certainly>
Re: Leaving my tank fallow:
Should I be changing the water and stirring and/or vacuuming the sand, during the 3 months it is fallow?
If so how much would you recommend and how often?
<I do encourage vacuuming during these times... on your "regular schedule", perhaps weekly to monthly per: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water.htm>
Do you have any suggestions for removing the residual greenish yellow tint, of the water, from the Greenex and Acriflavine? Prior to adding any new life I did several 100% water changes. I have used carbon and PolyFilters.
<These are exactly my M.O.s>
Re: a Jawfish, Opistognathus rosenblatti in particular I currently have a 0 grain size substrate in the tank along with some small shells and coral rubble.
What would be the appropriate sand grain sizes to mix?
<About one quarter the larger material, mixed into the upper range of the whole blend... will become more mixed with time>
I am considering a tank for abdominalis, whitei and breviceps which are currently being bred and maintained by Tracy & David Warland of South Australian Seahorse Marine Services 
<Met these fine folks at last years Aquarama in Singapore>
in the same system at 71.6 degrees.
Would 71.6 be to low to maintain one?
<Is fine. The Baja species is found at this and quite cooler temperatures... the others reach comfortably into this realm>
In reference to Jawfish recommended as seahorse tankmates on seahorse.org, you said "Most of the commonly available species, agreed"
I wasn't quite sure from your answer if you would consider Opistognathus rosenblatti one of the commonly available species and thus appropriate for a seahorse tank? or better to choose another species?
<O. aurifrons would be better. The larger species will likely prove to be too aggressive feeders to be kept with Hippocampines>
I know they are usually pricey, but I see them offered much more frequently online these days and occasionally in the LFS.

Everything Came out Alright...
Jason,
<<Howdy>>
For the record we are definitely looking at a severe case of constipation. I feed my clowns as if they are groupers. I was using newly hatch brine to simulate plankton blooms but recently started using flake that had been soaked in Zoe and dumped into the sump so the main pump would chop it up and inject it into the tank. I also introduced freeze dried krill as a third course as the clowns seem to eat it regardless. So! Formula One frozen in the morning, Formula Two flake in the afternoon, and freeze dried krill in the evening. Bare with me! <<I'm right there... this has really been quite fascinating from the start, and certainly one for the notebook for future reference.>> I did not feed this tank all day yesterday and took a mental note of the fecal matter on the bottom. This morning I notice that half digested krill was laying on the bottom of the tank and the chrysopterus look very much relieved and normal. <<really...>> I once read a aquaculture journal that suggested fish oil as a laxative for sea bass. I soaked small pieces of Formula Two frozen in concentrated fish oil and fed the chrysopterus this morning. She immediately took a crap, for lack or a better word. <<I think "scat" is the term they use in wildlife biology ;-) >> Although white the feces was a little closer to normal. <<things appear to be moving then, this is good.>> It appears that for some reason this fish is sensitive to quantity, type, and consistency. I'm going to toss out the flake and krill and stick to frozen. <<wise choice>>
Life never ceases to amaze! I'll let you know how it goes.
<<Thanks for all the information. I'm simply fascinated by this whole episode. I do think though, that perhaps the word blockage would be more apropos than constipation, but in either case, you clown is better and that's what we like to hear. I was hoping to hear perhaps about the Epsom salts, but this is fine too. Thanks again for writing back. Cheers, J -- >>

Tetra Anti-Parasite Flakes
Bob,
I have a saltwater tank and recently was told to try to use Tetra Anti-Parasite flakes to treat an ick problem with a Orange Shoulder Tang. Do you know if this product will affect any corals or inverts I have in my tank. Thanks for any help you can provide on this product.
William
<It will very likely not affect either the ich infestation or your non-fish livestock. Please read through WetWebMedia.com re parasitic problems, their treatment. Bob Fenner>

Reef Vital DNA
Do you guys know what is in the Marc Weiss product Reef Vital DNA.
<yes...fairly well>
Unless my nose has deceived me I fear I have paid $20 for a bottle of prune juice. I don't have a hidden agenda, I just want to buy the best food per dollar ratio. 
<we are agreed. I personally will not put anything with unlabeled ingredients into my tank>
I have heard good things about Liquid Life BioPlankton, and have just started dosing it. Is this the best food for filter feeders on the market, or am I believing the hype again? Thanks, David.
<depends on your filter feeders... phytoplankton substitutes are all the rage now but very few popular invertebrates can actually ingest it (many complications about preparation and dosing). If you have a lot of gorgonians or Neptheid soft corals...fine. Do experiment as per mfg dose. But be more judicious if you have more of the popular zooplankton feeders. Again, all dependant on the specific invertebrates that you keep. Kindly, Anthony>

Carolina Supply
I saw that you recommended Carolina Supply to someone else for purchasing amphipods, copepods, etc. Any firsthand experience with their products? 
<Yes... mostly waaay back as a High School science teacher>
I also noticed that they sell brine shrimp eggs minus the shells, which they claim can be added directly to a marine aquarium with good results. Do you think this is a good idea.
<Mmm, an "okay" one. I'd rather the cysts be hatched out, fed nutritious media, then IN TURN be fed to a main system>
Last question, I never see to much info on raising baby brine shrimp to adults for feeding. Is it because of poor nutritional value, marine H2O not salty enough or what?
<Mmm, principally economics... It's not profitable (really) for shops to sell such to the public. But can have considerable nutritional value, bring delight to animals eating them, their keepers>
Do you think they could be raised in a refugium alongside amphipods and copepods??
<Mmm, not practically... do require higher density water>
Thank you for all of your wonderful help to all
the unwise amateurs like myself. Nathan
<But getting "wiser" all the time! Bob Fenner>

Suggestion? Feeding, nutrition for Yellow Tang (and other herbivorous fishes)
Hello Bob,
<Steven Pro this morning.>
First time writer; love the advice on FAQ's. Recently, I moved my 2 year old yellow tang from a 55 gal to a 180 gal tank. In the past, he
loved lettuce and spinach that I added to the tank. In the 55, I simply floated it, and he would come to the top to eat. Now, he avoids the top of the tank, and will not eat lettuce or spinach that I clip to the side or top rim of the tank. He looks great and eats well, but at times has a bit of a pinched stomach, and I would like to supplement the diet. Floating it is not an option as the tank is drilled and the lettuce will go over the falls. Any thoughts of helping him overcome this 'fear' at the change of presentation?
<The easiest thing to do is to attach your clip to a small piece of liverock with a rubber band or plastic cable ties. This way the food sinks to the bottom and is a little more natural feeding pattern. Also, I would eventually change his food, once he resumes eating normally, away from terrestrial plants to marine based algae such as Nori. -Steven Pro>

Curious about feeding
Dear Mr. Fenner:
<You got Steven Pro today.>
I have a 125 gallon tank with a medium sized vol lionfish. I added a brown-banded bamboo sharked freshly hatched from an egg. I know that I shouldn't try to feed him for about 2-2.5 weeks but I am wondering whether live food or frozen food would be the best starter selection?
<I would slowly acclimate ghost shrimp to full strength seawater and allow the shark to eat whenever he wishes.>
The lionfish only eats live food, especially ghost shrimp. Is there any way to wean him off of live food and help him adapt to frozen?
<Yes, but is going to be harder than normal because I think you should provide a constantly available food source for the shark initially. After the shark is eating well, keep the ghost shrimp separate. Then scoop them up in a net and put the net in the tank and allow the shrimp to scurry out of the net. Soon the Lionfish will associate the net with food and will approach the net as soon as it goes in the tank. Eventually, feeding directly out of the net. When that occurs, try putting something else in their like defrosted, frozen krill. Soon, he will eat anything that is in the net.>
These are the only 2 fish I plan to keep in the tank and how do you feel about their compatibility?
<There should be enough room for just the two of them.>
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks so much for your time and patience in this matter.
Sincerely, Matthew
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Vegetable matter foods? Tang algae feeding Trick
Hi Bob,
<Anthony Calfo in your service>
I hope that you and yours are healthy, and that life is as it should be.
Personally I try to refrain from asking you questions as much as possible,
but there is one area I would certainly appreciate your opinion on: Green foods.
I am concerned that my many tangs and angels are not receiving their needed share of greenstuffs for long term success. I have had most of my fishes for over a year now and am happy to report that they are all doing exceptionally well (even an indo-pacific Regal angel I'm happy to report), but currently my greenstuffs diet consists mainly of dried green algae, supplemented by Formulas 1,2 and angel formula. Personally I am not too happy with the formula foods and would like to try something that is fresh, specifically I hope to find green foods readily available at local supermarkets, for costs
sake. Here's what I have heard to try, and I would really value your opinion on these and any other foods you can suggest:
1) Nori
<perhaps the best choice of popular foods>
2) Zucchini
<reasonably good if frozen or blanched to break down cellulose for digestion by fishes>
3) Romaine lettuce
<better for behavioral enrichment than nutrition...same prep as above>
Thank you for your time and kindness!
<do keep in mind that terrestrial plants (spinach, zucchini, romaine, etc) are power grown by farmers who fertilize with what?... Nitrogen and phosphorous...Aieeeee! Feed enough of it and you are importing serious nutrients into the system dynamic. I like Nori best. Even better is a disgusting jar of seawater full of river rocks or like worn stones sitting in a south or east facing sunny window allowed to grow thick marine algae. Take a stone out periodically to let the tangs graze this natural algae and rotate it when it is rasped clean with another ready coated stone. An old fashioned trick, but cheap and very natural! Pass it along! Anthony>
Manuel Alvarez

Re: Vegetable matter foods?
*** <Anthony Calfo in your service>
Thank you Anthony for helping me out with my inquiry about green foods.
*** <do keep in mind that terrestrial plants
*** (spinach, zucchini, romaine, etc) are power
*** grown by farmers who fertilize with what?...
*** Nitrogen and phosphorous...Aieeeee!
Thanks for the info, I hadn't thought about that one!!
*** Even better is a disgusting jar of seawater
*** full of river rocks or like worn stones sitting
*** in a south or east facing sunny window allowed
*** to grow thick marine algae.
So in your opinion, is the above more nutritious than Nori?
<probably not enough to be worth the aggravation, but if you like to tinker..>
My tanks are well established and I always encourage micro algae to grow, which does get grazed on, but of course the more the merrier with the large number of herbivores I have. 
<exactly, and agreed>
Question: Can I purchase and encourage macro algae (Caulerpa Sp.) to grow in the same manner as above, or is oxygenating required for that?
<yes to former, but tedious...no to latter, you are correct>
While I have your attention, I have a really fundamental question to ask which surprisingly no one I have spoken with has been able to answer: As aquarists we are taught from day one that Chlorine and Chloramines are bad for our fish and lethal to our bacteria, yet the ocean contains more
Chlorine than salt!!
<Chlorine in solution can be evaporated (off-gassed), but Chlorides cannot... not the same, my friend... especially in the case of the molecule Chloramine in water treatment (cannot be off-gassed and is not present (?) in seawater>
I have thought about this situation for a while, and can only conclude that nitrifying bacteria of the same type doesn't exist in the ocean?
<you have magic peyote/mushrooms growing in your backyard...don't you? <smile>>
I am really perplexed about this, would you happen to know?
Best regards, Manuel
<I have no idea about what I know most days (I have peyote too). Anthony>

Re: Vegetable matter foods?
Hi again Anthony,
<whaaaaasup>
*** <Chlorine in solution can be evaporated
*** (off-gassed), but Chlorides cannot... not the
*** same, my friend... especially in the case of the
*** molecule Chloramine in water treatment
*** (cannot be off-gassed and is not present (?)
*** in seawater>
I understand what you're saying above, and in the old days when Chlorine was used instead of Chloramines it must have been in much higher concentrations than what is present in the ocean? But then again that must have been an awful lot, since the ocean contains 19,000 ppm!
<yes... for many municipalities, you could smell the chlorine in the tap water from feet away...still so for many parts of the country>
*** <you have magic peyote/mushrooms growing
*** in your backyard...don't you? <smile>>
I think it's probably due to all that darn sea water I swallow starting suctions! :)
Thanks again and take care, Manuel
<ahhhh, yes... there's good protein in amphipods...hehe. Anthony>

Crustacean nutritional value,  Foods
Is Mysis shrimp any better in nutritional value ?
<Yes, they are considerably better than Brine Shrimp.>
I'm having a bastard of a time trying to get him to take Ocean Nutrition flake. I think I might try and get him Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef frozen pellets which I hear are good. Some have recommended Mysis shrimp, and that's why I ask. Even chopped up fresh shrimp isn't enticing the cow. . . -Ed
<You might want to try mixing the Brine Shrimp and the Mysis at first and slowly cut back the amount of Brine. Frozen clams and bloodworms are also favorites of mine, as well as, all of the frozen Formula foods from Ocean Nutrition. -Steven Pro>

Automatic Feeder
Hello Robert.
<Hello Greg>
I have been reading your website for a while and have found it to be very helpful in the setup of my tanks (220 Mostly Fish some LR)
I am looking into purchasing an automatic feeder mainly for the weekends when I'm out of town (I generally feed my fish frozen when I am around) and was wondering which type you would recommend, if any have known problems that should be avoided? I currently have 2 Eheim filters attached to the tank (2260 and a 2229) and have been very happy with them, I saw they also offer a feeder wondered if that would be my best choice.
<I use the Eheim products here as well>
Thanks in advance
Greg
BTW I am attempting to design a very large tank (in the few thousand gallon range) for my new home and I may be dropping you a line with some questions on that too :)
<Please do so. Bob Fenner>
Thanks
Greg

Re: Automatic Feeders
know any good vendors for eel feeders? I got one but it is primarily for dead food which my eel doesn't seem to be accepting. he wants his grass shrimp.
<Have seen some home-made devices that were very inventive... but no commercial made ones>
I need something with doors on the tube that swing both directions or something like that
<Design and build it is my advice. Bob Fenner>

The Real Bob Sneaks In... for Gelatin
Bob, I read on your Foods/feeding/nutrition FAQs that you recommend "alginates" as a substitute for gelatin on food preparation.
You also mention that the alginates are not necessarily too easy to find, that you need to order them from chemical companies.
<Yes>
I was wondering if you ever heard of this... Though I don't remember the name, I remember buying it at the natural foods store, a gelatin substitute, made out of a seaweed.
<Yes... "these are them">
I remember it being some colorless flakes that you would mix with fruit juice or whatever it was you wanted to have gelatinized. I thought it was worth mentioning, unless you already know about it and I am just trying to re-invent the wheel.
David
<Thank you much... the company "Kelco" here in town (Used to belong to Merck) makes a few tons of these glucoproteins a day for beer foam (yum), emulsifiers for ice creams, cosmetics... many more products. Bob Fenner>