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More FAQs about Pump/Plumbing Noise, Prevention, Abatement
and Aquarium Systems... or Save My Sanity, PLEASE! 2
Related Articles: Plumbing Marine Systems,
Plumbing
Return Manifolds, Refugiums,
Related FAQs: Plumbing Noise 1,
Marine Plumbing 1, Marine
Plumbing 2, Marine Plumbing 3, Marine
Plumbing 4, Marine Plumbing 5, Marine
Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7, Plumbing
8, Plumbing 9, Plumbing
10, Plumbing 11, Plumbing
12, Plumbing 13, Plumbing
14,
Plumbing 15,
Plumbing 16,
Plumbing 17,
Plumbing 18,
Holes & Drilling,
Durso Standpipes, Overflow Boxes,
Bubble Trouble,
Make Up
Water Systems, Pumps, Plumbing,
Circulation, Sumps,
Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2, Gear
Selection for Circulation, Pump
Problems, Fish-Only
Marine Set-ups, Fish-Only
Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish and
Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems, Coldwater
Systems, Small Systems, Large
Systems, Water Changes, Surge
Devices,
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Noise Level and "Micro" Bubbles
4/29/08
Thanks for your guidance in the past in setup.
<You’re welcome.>
I have two questions about my still lifeless tank. I have a used Dutch AS 75 G
flat back hex tank which I restained and varnished, drilled for two 1.5
bulkheads in the top corners. 90 pounds of very cured Live Fiji rock. I have
installed it with two overflow PVC 1.5 pipes running from L’s at the bulkhead.
Each L has a 1/4 inch John Guest Air valve to allow air suction into the 90s and
prevent "burping".
<Is the airline run down into the drain line?>
The pipes run down to a 30 gallon 30X18X12 sump/refugium, which is turning out
to be too tall. One pipe goes directly to the 12 inch ASM G2 skimmer chamber
(right side of sump); one passes the 9 inch refugium (left side of sump) with a
teed 3/4 inch ball valve dropping a few gph into the fuge, and then continues to
the skimmer chamber. Middle chamber is a 6 inch pump chamber housing an OR6500
pump. Bubble trap baffles between the skimmer and the pump chamber, although I
made these too narrow and may be promoting too rapid flow.
<This can be a problem with not enough dwell time through the baffles to allow
the bubbles to escape. Foam between two of the baffles can make a huge
difference.>
Exhaust enters the sump below the waterline from the 2 1.5 drain lines but is
dropping a lot of bubbles.
<They will, this needs to be managed.>
Some appear to be making it past the trap and back into the tank. I did not
build a bubble chamber for the skimmer section, and I have not employed socks,
because the sump is so tall I would have a hard time accessing/changing them,
and would turn them into nitrate sources.
<This too can be a big help for you. You will need either a filter sock (even if
it is a pain to change) or to fabricate something your drains can dump into
forcing the water and air to come back up before transiting the rest of the
sump. I used to have my overflow dump into a 1 liter bottle with the top cut off
for this purpose!>
OR6500 pumps 1.25 line out through 6 inches of flex, threaded connection, union,
ball valve, 2 45s, 3 foot rise, tees at the top of the tank into two 1s and
drops water into the tank about an inch below the surface. Both sides are
blasting microbubbles.
<Frustrating.>
In order to reduce bubbles I have tried vaselining pressure-side joints to check
for any venturi above the sump waterline and found none. I have damped flow down
from the refugium and seen minimal impact. I suspect the problem is with the
volume speed through the baffles.
<It is sounding that way.>
So much for background:
1) Short of reengineering my sump, which may be inevitable, what other
suggestions can you offer to reduce bubbles ?2) I have not seen much foam or
skimmate in my ASM. I only have a few hermits and snails aside from the LR so
there is not much to skim. Is it true that fresh salt water takes some time to
"ripen" and reduce surface tension and that the skimmer and bubbles will improve
over time?
<Yes, more of the components in the tank being new with manufacturing residues
floating about.>
3) I don't have overflow boxes, just two 90s acting as drains which are
currently level with the waterline. They are loud. Is there any trick to
minimize their noise level?
<First, be sure the open end of the elbow is pointing down into the water. This
will keep the inside of the line from being exposed to the atmosphere and your
ears. Next you may need to experiment a bit with the air inlets on the elbows.
John Guest fittings are nice, but you will need to be able to run the airline
down into the elbow a bit. How far down for your case it the experimental part,
you will need to play with this distance until the overflow is quiet. Generally
4” down in from the top of the elbow will get you fairly close for this amount
of flow. Your drains are sized well for this pump, you can get these quiet.>
Thanks, as always, John.
<Welcome John. You have a bit of playing to do, but this flow can be managed
through a sump this size. It is just all about directing it, making the bubbles
work around obstacles to get into the return pump. Keep with it, good luck,
Scott V.>
Re: Noise Level and "Micro"
Bubbles 5/6/08
Thanks for your guidance in the past in setup.
<You're welcome.>
I have two questions about my still lifeless tank. I have a used Dutch
AS 75 G flat back hex tank which I restained and varnished, drilled for
two 1.5 bulkheads in the top corners. 90 pounds of very cured Live Fiji
rock. I have installed it with two overflow PVC 1.5 pipes running from
L's at the bulkhead. Each L has a 1/4 inch John Guest Air valve to allow
air suction into the 90s and prevent "burping".
<Is the airline run down into the drain line?>
{no, just a gate valve on the ell. I will extend the line down into the
pipe 4 inches}
<<This will make a big difference.>>
The pipes run down to a 30 gallon 30X18X12 sump/refugium, which is
turning out to be too tall. One pipe goes directly to the 12 inch ASM G2
skimmer chamber (right side of sump); one passes the 9 inch refugium
(left side of sump) with a teed 3/4 inch ball valve dropping a few gph
into the fuge, and then continues to the skimmer chamber. Middle chamber
is a 6 inch pump chamber housing an OR6500 pump. Bubble trap baffles
between the skimmer and the pump chamber, although I made these too
narrow and may be promoting too rapid flow.
<This can be a problem with not enough dwell time through the baffles to
allow the bubbles to escape. Foam between two of the baffles can make a
difference.>
{Wouldn't foam slow flow further? }
<<No, it will just serve the purpose to trap bubbles. Use the coarser
filter type foams.>>
Exhaust enters the sump below the waterline from the 2 1.5 drain lines
but is dropping a lot of bubbles.
<They will, this needs to be managed.>
{OK..........}
Some appear to be making it past the trap and back into the tank. I did
not build a bubble chamber for the skimmer section, and I have not
employed socks, because the sump is so tall I would have a hard time
accessing/changing them, and would turn them into nitrate sources.
<This too can be a big help for you. You will need either a filter sock
(even if it is a pain to change) or to fabricate something your drains
can dump into forcing the water and air to come back up before
transiting the rest of the sump. I used to have my overflow dump into a
1 liter bottle with the top cut off for this purpose!>
{My space is cramped with a gate valve modded G2 but I will see if I can
squeeze something in. }
<<Even a small cup that forces the air back up before the water is
allowed to flow through the sump can have an impact.>>
OR6500 pumps 1.25 line out through 6 inches of flex, threaded
connection, union, ball valve, 2 45s, 3 foot rise, tees at the top of
the tank into two 1s and drops water into the tank about an inch below
the surface. Both sides are blasting microbubbles.
<Frustrating.>
{Yup}
In order to reduce bubbles I have tried vaselining pressure-side joints
to check for any venturi above the sump waterline and found none. I have
damped flow down from the refugium and seen minimal impact. I suspect
the problem is with the volume speed through the baffles.
<It is sounding that way.>
{Yup.}
So much for background:
1) Short of reengineering my sump, which may be inevitable, what other
suggestions can you offer to reduce bubbles ?2) I have not seen much
foam or skimmate in my ASM. I only have a few hermits and snails aside
from the LR so there is not much to skim. Is it true that fresh salt
water takes some time to "ripen" and reduce surface tension and that the
skimmer and bubbles will improve over time?
<Yes, more of the components in the tank being new with manufacturing
residues floating about.>
{Actually only the Sedra is new. Everything else including the g2 body
is used.}
<<Even that can impact skimmer performance, or you just don’t have much
to skim as you mentioned. You’re water tests will tell you which.>>
3) I don't have overflow boxes, just two 90s acting as drains which are
currently level with the waterline. They are loud. Is there any trick to
minimize their noise level?
<First, be sure the open end of the elbow is pointing down into the
water. This will keep the inside of the line from being exposed to the
atmosphere and your ears. >
{Are you saying facing the tank bottom? Thant would place my overflows 8
inches below the waterline? Or are you simply saying 45 degrees from
vertical like 10:30 and 1:30? }
<<However far you need to rotate them so the open end is underwater.
Without boxes you may have to construct a little standpipe to get the
desired water level. Be creative!>>
<Next you may need to experiment a bit with the air inlets on the
elbows. John Guest fittings are nice, but you will need to be able to
run the airline down into the elbow a bit. How far down for your case it
the experimental part, you will need to play with this distance until
the overflow is quiet. Generally 4" down in from the top of the elbow
will get you fairly close for this amount of flow. Your drains are sized
well for this pump, you can get these quiet.> Thanks, as always, John.
<Welcome John. You have a bit of playing to do, but this flow can be
managed through a sump this size. It is just all about directing it,
making the bubbles work around obstacles to get into the return pump.
Keep with it, good luck, Scott V.>
Thanks for your help.
{Thanks. I will try these suggestions.}
<<Welcome, good luck, Scott V.>>
|
Overflow... Not reef ready
4/29/08
I have a reef ready 90 with the built in overflow in the back. (older style?) I
have a mag 9.5 return pump. The return goes from the sump to the bottom of the
standpipe, maybe 24" then up into the overflow box another 24".
<OK>
The problem is I am getting a lot of noise from the overflow, I hear most of it
from the top of the tank. The tank is equipped with the stock standpipes. After
Googling I found that the overflow is rated for 600gph,
<And in reality only flow 300 without issues.>
and the mag 9 is 800gph @ 48" head, so why would I still be getting the air
noise? Is there an adjustment I can make to make it more quiet?
<The fact of the matter is the 1” drain provided in these overflows cannot
handle nearly what the Mag 9.5 can pump back up to the tank. At the very least
this will be evident with the noise you are experiencing, at the worst you will
end up with water on the floor. By forcing the drain to handle more than it can
you will be forcing it to siphon somewhat, creating the gurgling and flushing
noises you are hearing. You will need to put a ball valve on the output of the
Mag and restrict the flow until the noise subsides.>
Thanks in advance
<Welcome, good luck, Scott V.>
|
Please Help! At My Wits End
Trying to Solve This Problem... (Another Overwhelmed “Mega” Overflow?) –
03/03/08
I have a 150 gallon glass aquarium with Megaflow Overflow system, Euro-Reef
skimmer with Sedra pump, and 2 Mag-Drive pumps (950 gph).
<<…! Is this for each!? I’m guessing this “Megaflow” system (can you hear the
sarcasm in my voice [grin]), consists of a single 1” drain, yes? Realistically,
this would limit you to about 300gph en toto for the return pump(s)…after
headloss>>
The system is 5 years old. The pumps are all originals but well cleaned and
cared for. I can honestly say the system has been virtually silent since I
purchased a Euro-Reef Isopad soon after system was set up 5 years ago.
<<Ah, yes…isolating pump vibration can make a remarkable difference>>
About a week ago a major change occurred. I came home to very loud rushing water
noise (like toilet flushing constantly).
<<Mmm, a siphon surge…generally means you are pushing more water to the tank
than the overflows/drains can safely handle>>
The pumps and skimmer appeared to be working well with no apparent air leaks.
The drain pipe/return pipe appears tight in bulkhead and in correct position. No
matter what I do to try to quiet the system nothing works. When I turned the
system off I heard an extreme high whining noise (like something was stuck in
line).
<<Hmmm…or maybe sucking/pushing are through a very small leak (pinhole)>>
I continued to turn the system on and off until I could no longer hear the
whine.
<<…?>>
The system is not hard plumbed and usually I can "burp" the air out easily by
moving the flexible down lines a couple of times.
<<Mmm, better to aspirate these if this is a continual problem. This involves
inserting a length of small-diameter tubing down the overflow pipe to allow air
to escape when the system is “running.” Determining the best length/diameter for
the tubing usually requires a bit of trial-and-error>>
This has no effect on the noise now.
<<Agreed…not a panacea>>
The noise (rushing water and air) seems to originate along the lines draining
into sump or up in the aquarium, not in the sump.
<<Indeed…a result of too much flow>>
Adjusting the water level using the air intake elbow has not been successful.
The drain pipe and return pipes seem to be firmly in place in the bulkheads. I
know of nothing that could have been sucked into the system. I did have a
problem with overgrowth of sponges over my live rock etc when I was feeding my
puffer mussels daily. The sponges were evident and growing out of the overflow.
I fear that somehow they are constricting my lines internally? Is this possible,
how do I eradicate?
<<This is possible…and would explain the change in the systems’
performance…Replacing the drain pipe/tubing is an option, but I think you have
other issues here as well. This problem is almost certainly an issue with “too
much water volume” being pushed down the drain line. Frankly, with the return
pumps you list, I’m amazed you haven’t had a serious flood before now. Those
Mag-Drive pumps must be working against some serious head pressures. Even so, it
sounds like your drain has been operating in a dangerous “siphon” mode where the
slightest obstruction; in this case possible buildup of organic matter, can
cause serious problems. I think you were lucky this time in that the drain was
able to “surge” and keep up with the flow, albeit in a very noisy/annoying
manner, and didn’t just back water up all over your floor>>
I am at a loss as to what do next.
<<If you don’t have gate-valves plumbed on the return side of the pumps
(recommended), try turning off one of the return pumps to reduce the return flow
and see what happens. As stated, with the 1” drain line you should shoot for a
flow-/drain-rate of no more than 300gph. And obviously, come up with alternative
methods for producing necessary “water movement” within the display>>
Thank you for your assistance.
Leslie
<<Give the flow reduction a try, Leslie…and write back to discuss further if you
wish. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Follow Up Note On My
Email To You on 3/3/08 (Sys. Plumbing/Bristleworms/Puffer) – 03-15-08
I wanted to thank Eric Russell for his assistance on 3/3/08.
<<Eric here…you are quite welcome, Leslie>>
I was so frustrated that I was ready to give my fish away (or worse) and
close down the system!
<<I do recall>>
He gave me the support and guidance to get through a really miserable
few days until my aquarium was fully functioning again and my 4 charges
were alive and well. (This includes my original 5+ year old dogface
puffer, 5 year old Foxface, 4 year old Picasso trigger and 3.5 year old
hippo tang.)
<<Is rewarding to know>>
Thank you, thank you Eric, as I thought my puffer was a goner , not
eating for 4 days.
<<Most welcome again, my friend>>
You guys and gals probably do know what a wonderful service you provide
and you are so appreciated in 911 situations.
<<It truly is our wish for you/the hobby to succeed…thank you for the
kind words>>
I had written because my 150 gallon all glass aquarium with MegaFlows
had started gurgling and siphoning. The system is 5+ years old and
usually quiet. The noise was a very sudden change and no matter what I
tried nothing worked. With Eric's advice I tried to aspirate the air.
Did not work, if anything noise, gurgling just became worse.
<<It can take quite a bit of fiddling to find the right combination of
tubing diameter and insertion length…but still…is no panacea>>
Eric confirmed my fear that it was possible that my drains ( 2 drains,
each 1"diameter ) could be plugged from organic matter. (Ii fed my
puffer daily mussels to keep his beak in check).
<<Indeed…many cryptic organisms find this environment agreeable to
them>>
Eric suggested I might need new lines.
<<Is often the simplest approach to this issue>>
I also suspected my Euro-Reef skimmer might be at fault for the extra
air being pulled into the system. It still produced good skimmate
amounts but was getting more and more difficult to start pump. At times
required pump to be disconnected from skimmer and tilted around before
it would start.
<<Ah, yes…I very recently had to replace all three Sedra pumps on my own
ER skimmer (made the switch/upgrade to the ER-modded Eheim pumps)>>
Anyway, due to undergoing treatment for a medical condition, I am quite
weak right now, and had to hire my local LFS to come to my home. They
determined there was nothing wrong with skimmer function (wrong) and
thought the flow was just fine, did not agree noise was anything but
normal.
<<Disappointing to know>>
I insisted they break system down and evaluate.
<<Excellent>>
This took them over 2 hours (at $85.00 an hour,
<<Yikes! Maybe I am in the wrong biz… [grin}>>
I know MD's that are less expensive, but who's going to argue at this
point.
<<Actually, from what I’ve read I think that fee is about “median’ and
not unreasonable. Regardless…you should still expect them to know what
they are doing/provide quality service>>
The Mag 9.5 pumps were fine, but the drain lines were at least 50%
clogged with fibrous tissues (sponges?)
<<Quite likely>>
but worse, thousands of bristle worms.
<<Not the monsters many folks think them to be. Can be/are quite
beneficial detritivores…although extremely high population densities can
be an indicator of excess organic material (overfeeding)>>
Unfortunately, when the drain lines were reinstalled and the system
started up hundreds of baby and not so baby bristle worms were blown
into my aquarium. This was so upsetting as I keep a meticulous aquarium
(at least the parts I can see).
<<Relax my friend, no reason to be upset at this point. Back off a bit
on the feedings and the worm population should adjust accordingly>>
I do every other day 8-gallon water changes and visually the aquarium
looks pristine.
<<Ah, but as you are learning…much going on/present that isn’t always
“visible” to the naked eye>>
My puffer requires this and I think this is why he has lived so long.
But I am side tracking, sorry...
<<No worries…all pertinent/worth sharing>>
Anyway, when the LFS left my home I was left with a sump full of bristle
worms. Most were about an eighth of an inch long but there were many big
ones, 1-2 inches in size.
<<Mmm…have seen much bigger, and are of little concern as stated. Think
about it, these worms have been in your system for years…you didn’t have
any problems re, or even think about them when you didn’t “see” them>>
Also 2 big piles of worms (I mean about 2 inches high) were deposited in
the aquarium. My trigger was going crazy but even he wasn't hungry
enough to clear them. As it was about 8 pm and dark by now I quickly did
a 20 gallon water change and collapsed into bed. Next Am I moved live
rock from 1/4th of aquarium and of course there were piles of the worms
under it. I still need to continue my quest and break down the other
3/4ths of aquarium and vacuum up what I can).
<<You can do this if you wish…but is not necessary in my opinion>>
Any thoughts on how to rid the strangers?
<<You really don’t want to be “rid” of them….they serve a very useful
purpose. But as implied earlier, reducing excess foodstuffs in the tank
will limit the population>>
I don't want them growing inches long.
<<Too late [grin]…but no reason to panic>>
I will not overfeed aquarium but at this point I want them out!
<<These organisms are a necessary and useful component of a “balanced”
system>>
I agitated the sump water in the skimmer and it picked up several
hundred more from there. Then I got really discouraged and just
completely emptied the entire sump and cleaned it all out of any water
and worms. The doorbell rang with my new Sedra 5000 pump for skimmer, it
was perfect timing.
<<Indeed…a well functioning skimmer will also help with the excess
organic load, obviously>>
Even the fiber block that is in sump after the floss/ carbon/ was filled
with baby bristle worms. The foam on the Euro-Reef skimmer full too. Now
skimmer with new pump is up and going, lines are clean, about 100
gallons of water have been changed in the last 3 days. Gurgling has
stopped, no siphoning anymore either.
<<Yay!>>
Now I have one question. How do I prevent this from occurring again in
3-4 years?
<<Hmm…it’s not likely it can be “prevented”…but reducing dissolved
organics in the water that feed the sponges will slow down their
growth/expansion. Also…reducing flow rates a bit (i.e. – not
maximizing/overwhelming the drain’s capacity) will allow a bit of
“wiggle room” for such growths>>
I don't want to feed my puffer any more mussels after seeing this
residue,
<<Oh…don’t stop altogether…just be more judicious re>>
also I think the sponges really picked up growth when I started putting
Selcon on food about 9 months ago.
<<Mmm, yes…while quite beneficial, it has been my experience that use of
this and other such food boosters requires careful use as they can be
abused. I do recommend you keep using the Selcon…but keep its use to no
more than once or twice a week as a food soak>>
What do I do to keep his beak from growing so fast?
<<As stated…don’t “completely stop” feeding shellfish to the puffer, but
rather cut back a bit maybe (as well as other foods/potential
over-feedings)…and do also add some chemical filtration
(carbon/Poly-Filter) to your system>>
He only occasionally takes bites out of the coralline live rock. I was
trying to think of a way I could attach his favorite big hard algae
wafer to a mussel shell. That way he would still bite hard against the
shell and keep beak in check.
<<Keep feeding what the fishes need/require…and “step-up” the
filtration/husbandry to cope re>>
The LFS said that puffers don't live long when they are at the size of
mine but I just don't believe that.
<<…?! And they based that statement on…? Seems a ridiculous thing to
say, to me>>
He has done wonderfully and never has had a disease.
<<Testament to your good care and a proper diet, no doubt>>
What is the oldest age you know for a captive dogface?
<<Have heard this can be more than a decade>>
Well, that is the end of my tale. I write to say thank you but also so
others can learn from my bad experience and hopefully save some agony.
<<Many thanks for sharing>>
Thank you Eric and all of the team.
<<We are all pleased to assist>>
Oh, I did also have valves added as recommended by Eric.
<<Excellent move!>>
Sincerely,
Leslie
<<Be chatting… Eric Russell>> |
|
Overflow Noise
2/13/08
I have a 1254 with 2 overflows and a drilled tank. It is drilled on the 2
back outside corners and has 2 8" overflows made from glass. Each houses a Durso
1.5" overflow. These use a flex hose to return to sump and drop from top of BS-2
Sump through sock filters. I have had a flushing issue with the left hand
overflow since filling. I have tried rerouting, replumbing with 1" pvc.
<Is the bulkhead draining the overflow 1” and the Durso oversized to 1.5” for
noise issues? If the bulkhead itself is 1.5” I would start by replumbing with
the larger pipe.>
No changes. One thing that I have noticed is that the right hand overflow starts
spilling over a second or 2 before the left, meaning that
there is not as much flow from that side. Maybe tank is not quite level.
<It is easy enough to check for level, and you should. Remedy this problem if it
is not.>
Question is would slightly lower flow in one overflow cause this flushing
effect?
<It sound like you have a few problems here. First, since the right hand
overflow is lower, it is having to flow more water than it should before the
left overflow kicks in. Running an overflow past capacity is not only a recipe
for disaster, but noisy while it lasts. The other problem sounds like siphoning.
Do you have an aspirating tube in your Durso? This will let air in to break the
siphon that will occur, causing flushing followed by the water coming over the
top of the drains until the siphon starts back up, draining it back down and
flushing again. The third thing I would check is your flow rate. With two 1”
bulkheads I would limit the flow to 600 gph safely. Any more will be noisy and
end up with water on the floor.>
Mike Callaghan
<I hope this helps, Scott V.>
Re: Overflow Noise
2/14/08
Thanks. The 1/8th inch airline fixed flushing problem. Only problem
now is uneven flow between 2 overflows. Maybe adjust the height of the
overflow slightly on the low one. Thanks again
Mike Callaghan
<Welcome, do check to make sure the tank is level first. Good luck,
Scott V.> |
AWFUL bulkhead gurgling.
Overflow Gurgling 2/11/08
Greetings gang!
<Wuf.>
I am having an awful issue with gurgling. After a fun-filled weekend of trying
to get my 65 gallon tank drilled (read sarcasm in this), I FINALLY got it done.
<It is what counts!>
I have 2-1" bulkheads installed, with a Mag 7 in sump. The return line is "T'ed"
off into 2 loc-line outputs. The new setup looks a TON better than the previous
clunky clear overflow box I was using, BUT I am having one last issue with it
(go figure).
<Growing pains.>
My drain lines gurgle. And gurgle. And gurgle. No stopping it. And it's driving
me NUTS. To be honest, I can't even leave it running for the fear of angering my
neighbor. Yes, it's THAT loud.
<Is it gurgling or flushing?>
I know the air getting sucked into the vortex going into the tube is causing it,
but I cannot get it to stop to save my life. I've shoved a piece of airline
tubing in it to try and 'break up' the vortex, but obviously it didn't work
(otherwise, I wouldn't be writing this!).
Any suggestions would be great. I would like to be able to sleep without having
to use ear muffs. :-(
-wuf
<Two things can cause gurgling/flushing noises. First is if the intake of the
drain is exposed to the atmosphere. This will cause the noise of the water
traveling through the line itself to be heard. This is why you see the PVC
elbows pointing down on most overflows. The other is a siphon or partial siphon
in the drain line. This will cause all sorts of noises, some sporadically. You
will need to drill the PVC drain intake at the point that it starts going down
to your sump for the airline tubing (I would actually get a bit larger tubing
for this). Be sure to drill it to fit fairly snug. From this point you will want
to slide the tubing up and down until you find a point at which it will
eliminate this siphon effect. Good Luck, Scott V.>
Re: New Tank…Pump
Size/Plumbing Options – 01/03/08
Eric,
<<Jason>>
Thank you for your detailed response.
<<Quite welcome>>
It was very helpful.
<<Ah…good to know>>
In reference to item 4 below, I did mean to write that I was considering lining
the tank stand with some sort of sound proofing.
<<Oh!…very good then>>
In car electronics, you can line the sheet metal behind the interior with
matting called Dynamat that helps reduce vibrations and blocks the sound from
going external.
<<Mmm, yes…have seen this used in aftermarket speaker installations>>
Was just wondering if something like this has been done in a fish tank and if so
what kind of material would be used.
Thanks, Jason.
<<I’ve never seen it done, though I have heard discussions re. An acoustical
tile or even foam-board insulation might do the trick…though you may find it’s
more effective to simply locate any offending pieces of gear and isolate/dampen
vibration at the source (as in placing a piece of “mousepad” under a vibrating
pump). But do feel free to give “sound-proofing the stand” a go, and let me/us
know how it works out. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Aqua C Remora, op./noise
issue 12/15/2007
Hey guys, love the site. I have a 26 gallon bow front FOWLR. I bought an
Aqua C Remora with the MaxiJet 1200 3 weeks ago because of the info I found on
your site. While it seems to be working well, about a half cup of gunk every few
days. My issue is with the noise, in the instructions it says the noise and
bubbles will decrease over time but has not. Being that the tank is in my
bedroom the noise can get quite annoying. Is there anyway to decrease the noise?
<Mmm, possibly... by adjusting the flow, mix... or possibly switching out the
pump (if this is the source of most the noise) for an Eheim hobby pump (MUCH
quieter)...>
Or would it be ok to put the unit on a timer, maybe 12 hours on 12 hours off.
Would it still be effective?
<Yes, might be the best idea here>
And would it cut down the life of the pump?
<Not appreciably>
Thanks for your help. -Joe
<Lastly, though it is not likely, this unit might be defective. If in doubt, do
call on Jason or Steve at Aqua-C... they are both very customer service
oriented... and fine young gentlemen as well. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
90 gallon noise maker... quieting
11/21/07
Hey Bob and friends! I've got a real quick two second question. I've
searched the forum and couldn't find a clear and simple answer. I'm moving and
have to put my 90 gallon salt FOWLR in the bedroom. I need a QUIET -powerful-low
budget-low maintenance filter. I have a 18'' snowflake, orange toad, and a
dogface. Needless to say, the water quality is less than optimal. But nobody
seems to mind. I feed the puffer daily and the other guys twice a month. I
currently have an old school hang on-overflow- wet dry, a decent skimmer, and
two power heads with about 60 lbs. LR. Not adding any more fish, just more rock.
Can you recommend a SUPER QUIET filter for my set up? My fiancée is already
upset about it being in the bedroom....please help! Thx, Adam B.
<Mmm, well, the most quiet units will be "contained" (i.e. sealed,
low-pressurized)... My fave, the larger canisters... of SIZE from Eheim (I use
these on my FW set-ups... and have for decades)... Whisper quiet and very
dependable... BUT you will have to be careful re feeding fishes of these types,
in this volume, AND clean the mechanical (filter pads) parts often... a pain at
first, but not hard once it's routine... And the Eheim's consume VERY little
electricity for what they do. Alternatively, you might consider building an
insulated box of sorts to reduce the ambient noise for what you have... Bob
Fenner>
Limiting Pump Noise…Large External or
Tunze Stream? – 09/26/07
Hello Crew!
<<Howdy Don!>>
I am in the middle of setting up a new saltwater 210 AGA.
<<Sweet>>
I went out and bought a Via Aqua 8000 to use as the sump and buy another one for
a closed-loop.
<<Mmm, have you heard these pumps run? I find this brand of pump to be very
noisy>>
It's an o.k. pump but a little noisy.
<<Indeed>>
I might be expecting too much and pretty much have read all your articles on
power heads and pumps.
<<Okay>>
Do I go and buy either a Dolphin 7500/6500 for a closed-loop (or tell me what
pump is awesome at being very quiet)
<<The Japanese-motored Iwaki’s, some of the Pan-World pumps, and those from
Gorman-Rupp Industries are a few examples that will offer a good balance of
quality and power vs. noise…but none are truly “silent”>>
or scrap the closed-loop and stick about 4 Tunze in the tank. I would love to
run a closed-loop but much rather have a real quiet tank running.
<<Then go with the Tunze Stream Pumps, mate. If you can live with the look
there’s absolutely no comparison re efficiency and flow volume, with virtually
no “noise”>>
Thank you for your time.
Don V.
<<Happy to assist. Eric Russell>>
New Custom 120g...Wanting A
“Quiet” 2400gph Turnover Rate! – 08/17/07
Wet web media crew,
<<Hello Matt>>
I have been reading nonstop for a couple days (there is a staggering amount of
data on your website)
<<Indeed>>
and am trying to get the best configuration. I know I want the 48” wide tank;
most likely 24” x 24” for the other two dimensions.
<<A standard 120-gallon tank then>>
The Lee Mar guys are the ones making the tank. The standard 48x24x24 has one 2”
drilled drain then two 1 ½” return holes in the back center overflow.
<<Better than most...>>
I do not think this is adequate so I must have them customize the tank. (Any
suggestions here would be great, I want to get it right the first time instead
of regretting a choice and be stuck with it.)
<<Mmm, well...I need to know what your “goals” are with this system to be able
to afford much help>>
I want to make sure that I have a big enough drain that it will be quiet and
able to easily handle 2400gph, then add a second one as a backup and to
supplement draining.
<<Ah, okay...then I would have “three more” of the 2” drains installed. This
will give you about 4800gph “maximum” capacity. This is a bout half what some
folks/most drain calculators will tell you...but is a more practical
number/expectation in my opinion. Even though four 2” drains will make your goal
of 2400gph quieter/easier to plumb, processing this much flow through a sump
just below the display will be anything but “quiet”>>
I think both drains could be in same overflow box.
<<If you are considering a maximum of only two drains your goal of 2400gph of
quiet flow “may” still be attainable, but will require much tweaking/tuning to
achieve. Perhaps you should consider a closed-loop to boost the water flow
within the display and utilize a much smaller “return” pump>>
If I have read correctly a 2” bulkhead would be the appropriate size (making the
drill holes ~3”).
<<Not in my opinion...as stated earlier, I would plan on about 1200gph per 2”
drain>>
Would there be any advantage to drilling the holes in the back glass (still in
the overflow) instead, or in addition to, the bottom glass?
<<This is my preference...if only to limit the amount of water lost should a
bulkhead fail>>
Are my dimensions correct for drain sizes?
<<Do consider my statements re>>
With drains this size, would a stand pipe, such as the infamous Durso standpipe
still be required to decrease noise.
<<Likely, yes...and would need to be constructed of pipe of the same diameter as
the drains to prevent loss of flow capacity>>
Not sure about the whole closed-loop system.
<<Is the “better” option here I think...or some Tunze Stream pumps>>
Given a big enough sump, any problem with that much flow through a sump?
<<I think you will be surprised at how much noise 2400gph of water volume
dumping in to a sump can make. Even if the sump is large (100+ gallons), it will
be a challenge to quiet the noise and control the turbulence/bubbles>>
Is there any disadvantage to having 3-4 extra holes (in each of the corners of
the tank) in the bottom to have available for return flow and cap any not in
use?
<<Of course (NOW is the time to drill these)...and I would not “cap” these but
rather utilize them without increasing the flow rate to help reduce
noise/plumbing issues. The more drains available...means fewer gph per
drain...means fewer hassles all around>>
I would like to use as few powerheads as possible for adequate flow and still be
able to keep SPS.
<<Can be done, though I find the Tunze Stream pumps to be very quiet, very
efficient, very flexible in their application, and quite worth the “intrusion”>>
I appreciate your time and will be purchasing the tank in the next month. If you
have any suggestions or ideas for this tank, please feel free to add any
suggestions.
<<I suggest you chat with/seek other’s opinions re pumping this much water
through your sump...research other options and base a decision on your own good
judgment>>
Thank you,
Matt
<<Happy to assist. EricR>>
Re: New Custom 120g...Wanting A
Quiet 2400gph Turnover Rate! – 08/22/07
Eric or other expert,
<<Just Eric here…>>
I have revised my plan to incorporate the response from Eric into my
tank. Attached is a schematic of the tank-in-progress.
<<I see it>>
Would it be better to 'T' the two corner holes for the intake of the
closed-loop then 'T' the two middle of the tank returns for the return
then just use one bigger pump?
<<With the configuration shown (if I understand/interpret it correctly)
I think you will have better control/efficiency utilizing a separate
pump for each as you show. Though I suggest you swap the ball-valves for
“gate-valves” (more control/finesse), and move them to the “output” side
of the pumps (you don’t want to “starve” the input side of the pump)…and
I would even consider up-sizing the pumps to a Mag-9.5 to allow for
future loss of flow as the bio-film builds up in the inside of the
plumbing>>
The current plan is to use a 30-40 gallon sump with a Mag 18 return,
theoretically giving around 1200 gph through the sump.
<<If utilizing the two 2” drains in the diagram to feed the
sump…excellent>>
The refugium will be a separate 20 gallon tank that utilizes a powerhead
to get water into the refugium and is gravity fed back into the sump.
<<This will work fine…though you could add a tee off one of the drains
to feed the refugium as an alternative (regulated with a valve)>>
Do you see any obvious, or not so obvious, problems to this design?
<<Not thus far>>
What is your opinion of the devices that rotate flow between returns
(i.e. Ocean Motion)?
<<I haven’t used these myself but have a friend in the trade who uses
them extensively with his customer installations. The devices seem to be
well made and he “swears by them.” I think they are worth your further
investigation if you are interested in regulating flow thus>>
Thank you for your continued assistance.
Matt Jenkins
<<Always happy to help. Eric Russell>> |
|
 |
Plumbing/Water Noise
Hassles...Big Drains With Lower-Than-Maximum Flow Rates Are Key – 08/08/07
Hello Eric,
<<Hello Faisal>>
Hope you are fine.
<<Yes my friend, thank you...and I must share with you...temperature is expected
to reach 104F here today with heat indexes exceeding 110F! Not the 122F you’re
experiencing, but still...ugh! [grin]>>
I have a question about the size of the Durso standpipe.
<<Okay>>
If you still remember that I have an upstream refugium (100" x 20" x 20" / 164G)
with 7" DSB & Chaetomorpha.
<<I do recall, yes>>
The main tank (100" x 32" x 28" / 370G) will have 2 overflow boxes. I was
planning to have two 2" Durso standpipes & two 1.5" returns but I have been told
that these sizes/flow rates would be hard to keep quiet.
<<If you “max-out” the flow capacity of the 2” drains then I would agree. But if
you utilize a pump that gives you about 1200gph-1500gph after head loss you
might find this configuration to work/be quite “manageable”>>
On the other hand, I have been advised to use two 1.5" Durso standpipes & two 1"
returns but then, through readings, I understood that these won't be enough.
<Depends on what you are “after” I suppose. This configuration could also work,
though you would probably want to limit this flow to 1000gph-1200gph en toto for
the two drains>>
I know that the turnover between sump & display is not as important as the
in-tank turnover. I am planning to have a closed-loop circulation & I already
have 2 Tunze Stream (3170g/h each) & 2 Tunze Turbelle Electronic (1270g/h each)
on a Tunze Multi-Controller. Also, you have advised me to have around 600 g/h
through the upstream refugium down to the tank. So with all these inputs what
Durso standpipe size should I use. Note that the tank will be SPS dominated tank
(I hope) and an in-wall design (regarding noise from the Durso standpipes).
<<Either configuration you have described will work... Considering you are
providing sufficient water flow by other means, “I” would likely go with the
1.5” standpipes/bulkheads to allow using smaller overflow boxes and keep the
flow from the sump to the tank to around 1200gph (after head loss) to ease
noise/plumbing hassles>>
As always, your insights will be appreciated.
Thank you & regards,
Faisal Abbas
<<Always a pleasure to assist...stay cool! Eric Russell>>
Noisy Eheim Pro 2028 7/8/07
Hi
I have purchased a 2nd hand [had been used for 6 months] Eheim 2028.
<A very good product in my estimation:
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=EH2028K>
It works perfectly but seems as if air may be present as it ‘rattles’ when the
taps are fully open. If I partially close the taps the noise stops. Is this
normal?
<No>
If not how can I dispel any remaining air?
<Mmm, a few ways, but the most assured is likely to turn the power off,
disconnect the discharge line, and have it lowered into a bucket, allow the
water to drain/siphon through the unit... perhaps while giving the filter itself
a few gentle shakes side-to-side to dislodge any air caught in the pump... If
you can get a friend to help, watch the lines/water, try turning the pump motor
on/off a couple times during this process...>
Thanks
Alan
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Hang-On Overflow Noise (Water Volume vs. Pipe Diameter) – 05/14/07
I just upgraded my 29 gal reef to a CPR100 overflow and draining into a 10
gal sump. I decided to hard pipe the overflow in with 3/4pvc and two
elbows. No matter how I position the straight down tube into the sump sock I
get the constant sucking and releasing sound in the box.
<<You are likely trying to push too much water through the overflow. The 1”
bulkhead that comes with the overflow will only handle about 300gph (yeah, I
know they are rated for more flow...just not practical), by reducing the output
diameter to ¾” as you have done with the PVC pipe you have reduced the flow
capacity even more to about 150gph or so...which is more than enough, by the
way, for this tank/sump combination in my opinion>>
Will the Durso pipe solve this problem of noise?
<<I have seen what looks like a modified/compact version of the “Stockman”
standpipe for hang-on overflow boxes (see here: http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/74.asp),
but whether or not it will help is probably a matter of trial and error. It may
help smooth flow a bit but if you are getting a surge effect as you describe you
will probably have to back off on the pump output from the sump (easily
accomplished with a gate-valve plumbed in-line after the pump)>>
Even if I put the sump pipe under water it still makes and ton of noise and I am
really trying to understand this problem. I want the tank to run with the least
amount of noise as possible and the splashing in the sump will be easy to fix if
I can get the overflow to stop sucking and making gurgling noises. Any other
suggestions?
Thanks.
Will
<<Definitely sounds like a case of too much water volume coupled with a too
small throughput diameter to me. Regards, EricR>>
Re: Hang-On Overflow Noise (Water Volume vs. Pipe Diameter) – 05/15/07
Question regarding the 3/4 PVC.
<<Ok>>
I am trying to get some clarification on what sizes I have used.
<<...?>>
The 1'' bulkhead accepts a schedule-40 3/4'' connection piece and then goes to
1" elbow.
<<Mmm, no...the 1” bulkhead will utilize 1” pipe/fittings...a 1” ell will
require 1” pipe. If you have used ¾” pipe then you either have ¾” fittings and
bulkhead, or you have use 1” to ¾” reducer fittings>>
I noticed that the 1" PVC pipe is the same size as ¾” fittings.
<<The outside diameter of 1” PVC pipe is very close to the outside diameter of a
¾” PVC fitting, yes...but in no way are the two compatible without the proper
reducer fittings>>
Why is this.
<<The ¾” fitting must be large enough to fit around the outside diameter of the
¾” pipe...and a 1” fitting for 1” PVC pipe is noticeably larger by comparison>>
Basically I am saying that 1" pipe fits in 1'" bulkheads but the 1" is really ¾”
in order to fit in that space.
<<No...>>
This is confusing to me and makes me wonder what size I hard piped mine in
with. Please advise.
<<If you used “all” 1” PVC fittings and pipe then figure your flow based on a 1”
diameter drain...if you used ¾” pipe or fittings (even just one) in combination
with the 1” PVC pipe and fittings, then figure your flow based on a ¾” diameter
drain>>
Also my Mag 5 with head pumps about 300 gal/hr and I was wondering if the
gate-valve would be alright to use to restrict flow from the pump?
<<Absolutely...the way these magnetic pumps are designed/work makes them very
compatible for use with a gate-valve for tempering flow>>
Thanks for your help.
Will
<<Happy to share. Eric Russell>>
Excessive Noise From My Tank Plumbing – 02/28/07
Hello,
<<Howdy Todd>>
I’ve been reading a lot on the plumbing noise on your website. I have a
225-gallon 72x24x30 tall with two overflow boxes 1 on each side of the tank,
each overflow has 1-1'' drain and 1-3/4'' return.
<<Ok>>
I’m using Durso pipes 1 1/4". I have a Mag 9.5 and a Mag 1800.
<<For return pumps?...this is more flow than two 1” overflows can
handle...>>
The 1800 is pumped from one side of the tank to the other, that’s why it’s
bigger to make up for the travel; the 9.5 return is pretty much straight up.
<<Even so, a 1” overflow will take about 600 gph of “gravity” flow under
ideal conditions (most folks find it easier to limit this to about half the
max “posted” rate). Either you have these pumps greatly restricted (head
pressure), or the overflows are larger than you think/stated, I suspect>>
Wondering is there is anything I can do about that ever so common that I’ve
been reading about loud water-flow noise through the pipes and into the
sump?
<<Did you plumb gate-valves (recommended) on the output side of the pumps?
If so, try closing these a bit until the noise abates and see what kind of
flow you have>>
I’ve tried the aspirating thing, putting an air tube through the top of the
Durso cap down the pipe any where from the top to the bottom of the overflow
and that really didn’t help at all.
<<Mmm, yes...is only a piece to the puzzle...and never a panacea on its
own>>
Does the air line need to go farther down into the drain pipes?
<<Hard to say as each installation is unique. I can only stress this does
take some experimentation, with both the tubing length AND tubing
diameter...perhaps a larger diameter tubing will make more difference>>
I’ve tried 1" and 1 1/2" PVC pipe from the bulkhead at the bottom of the
Durso pipe to the sump and both are loud. Most of the drain pipe is
vertical and horizontal, would it make a big difference if it all was a
little bit sloped?
<<As in replacing 90-degree ells with 45-degree ells?...possibly>>
I replaced the PVC with rubber hose and that did help quite a bit but still
a little noisy and the hose wants to kink, is there some good non-kinkable
hose out there anywhere?
<<Look for some flexible PVC, commonly referred to as spa-flex and found at
pool/spa retailers as well as Lowe’s and Home Depot>>
And the fact I don’t feel safe from leaks like I do with PVC.
<<The spa-flex “is” PVC and uses the same fittings/gluing technique>>
I think it’s quieter with the hose because it’s all smooth on the inside and
the bubbles and water aren’t hitting the edges of the PVC fittings.
<<Turbulence is a factor, yes>>
I’ve read a lot on you guys saying to increase the bulkhead size to like 1
1/2" or 2".
<<Is preferable, yes>>
I’d hate to re-drill cuz the tank is brand new, but if it would help? I
will do it?!!!
<<Increasing the size of the throughputs would ease the plumbing
noise/issues with the drains (considering you keep the same return pumps),
but you will likely still have issues with noise in the sump from trying to
process all that flow>>
Would I use all the same size pipe to match the size of the bulkheads?
<<Preferably, yes>>
What kind of hole-saw do I need to buy for the 1/2" acrylic?
<<Any woodworking hole-saw will do, though the “bi-metal” hole-saws work
best in my experience. Drilling acrylic is not rocket science, but if you
decide to attempt this...practice on a piece of scrap to get the hang of how
fast/slow to run the drill as well as practicing backing out the “running”
drill to let things cool every few minutes. The last thing you want to
happen is having the hole-saw “stick” in the hole because you got things too
hot and then stopped the drill in the hole>>
The noise is definitely from the drain pipes and sump entry.
<<You can try placing 45- or 90-degree ells on the ends of the drain pipes
and submerge these below the water line...but I really think your problem is
just too much volume/flow for the drain size>>
By the top of the overflow where the Durso pipe tops are it’s super silent
and working perfect.
<<Ah...no suction/surge noise then...hmm>>
I want to get rid of the water and air mixing crashing sound but I don’t
want to get rid of my Dursos!!
<<Indeed...though you may have to build larger standpipes to fit the new
fittings if you up-size the bulkheads>>
What do you think I should do???
<<Honestly, I would use smaller return pumps with plumbed gate-valves to
control flow and look to alternative methods for increasing water flow
within the tank>>
I was going to have a custom tank built of this size with 2-2" drains, but I
got a pretty good deal on this one.
<<Understood>>
I have learned so much from your website already!! Thanks so much, you guys
are great, you have made things so much easier for me!!! But I’m stuck on a
noisy one!!!
<<Happy you have found the site of use in the past...and no doubt this issue
too will come to pass>>
Thank you so much, Todd
<<A pleasure to share. Eric Russell>>
Re: Excessive Noise From My Tank Plumbing – 03/01/07
Hello again,
<<Cheers Todd>>
Thanks so much for your time Eric.
<<Quite welcome>>
Just a few more questions for you.
<<Ok>>
If I set up separate flow for a large amount of water movement inside my
tanks with like closed-loop systems (I have a 225-gallon FOWLR and a
120-gallon reef, both will eventually be pretty heavily stocked), how many
times should I be turning these tanks over through their sumps (skimmer,
charcoal, heater and refugium)?
<<Some two to three times the tank volume per hour should be fine>>
You don’t prefer a filter pad or sock in either type of tank do you?
<<Not myself, no...though some folks do use them with good result. Main
thing to keep in mind re these items is to keep spares and replace/clean
them once (at least) or twice (better!) each week>>
My last tank was a 55 gallon, I set it up with a valve on the drain line and
matched the flow of the return line, the 1" drain had no riser pipe, I just
set the drain and return water flows to equal and the water level stayed at
about the teeth.
<<Dangerous to put a valve/restriction on the drain line in my opinion. An
errant snail or just the build-up of mulm/bio-film can cause a flood>>
I had a separate safety drain with standpipe set at the top of tank so it
wouldn’t overflow, cuz the water would after awhile go up (start the sucking
noise) or go down ( the water crashing noise).
<<Indeed>>
Then Id’ take 5 minutes and set it again and it would last another 3 or 4
weeks. So it wasn’t as nice as the Durso but it wasn’t that big of a
pain. So is there enough gas/air exchange down in the sump with an open top
and skimmer, or maybe also an air stone?
<<No need for the air stone (let’s not create any “micro-bubble” issues),
the skimmer will oxygenate the water just fine>>
Or the main display with an open top, with water flow making surface
movement?
<<This helps greatly with gas exchange>>
Or do you need that air sucked through and/or the 1" water fall over the
teeth like with the Durso, for gas/air exchange?
<<Not necessary, no>>
I like the Durso, it’s just so loud with the air turbulence, with this set
up no air was being pulled through the drain (it was a super silent set
up). I also only had like 5 small fish though also. Do you know if that
Tenecor silencer that sits on a stand pipe works just like the Durso,
pulling lots of air down the drain?
<<I’m not familiar with the Tenecor silencer...you might do best asking
about this on the message boards (RC, reefs.org)>>
Thanks again, Todd
<<Regards, EricR>>
R2: Re: Excessive Noise From My Tank Plumbing - 03/02/07
Hello again Eric,
<<Hey there Todd!>>
On my 225g I tried the flex pvc and it quieted the drain quite a bit.
<<Ah yes...the thicker and more resilient walls of the flex-PVC can make quite a
difference...and being able to make “gentle” turns doesn’t hurt either>>
Thanks!
<<I’m happy you’re pleased>>
I tested my flow rate and my 1800 and 9.5 Mags and they are only pumping 600
gallons an hour.
<<I figured something was up...no-way two 1” returns were going to handle more
than 2000 gph>>
The return lines are not anything special, just 3/4 pvc with 2 90-degrees to
each overflow and 1 90-degree coming out of each overflow.
<<Hmm...is likely the ¾” return line causing the bulk of the head-loss with
these pumps>>
But that’s 2 to 3 times turnover rate, and like you said that should do it.
<<Yes...and just to clarify for those reading this...this particular “turnover
rate” is in regards to how much water is passing through the sump for filtration
purposes and not to be confused with overall water flow within the display
tank>>
I’m going to try those Tunze wavemakers for my water movement inside the tank,
they look like they work pretty well.
<<Indeed they do. I use the Tunze Stream pumps for flow in my 375g reef...you
won’t be disappointed>>
For my FOWLR 225G do you think all I need is 2 of the constant running
powerheads like the 6060 or 6080, 1 on each side of the tank, or would you go
with one of the controller sets that turn them on and off?
<<Either a pair of 6080s or a pair of 6100s w/controller would be fine (though
the “electronic” units give you much more flexibility). I use a couple 6080s
AND a pair of 6100s in my system>>
What about on my 120G reef?
<<A pair of 6060s or a pair of the electronic 6000s would be a nice
addition...in my opinion>>
Or what do you think about that Tunze box wavemaker?
<<Big, obtrusive, expensive, and very limited as to its placement in the
system...but those that use it do rave about it>>
It seems like it would work pretty good too.
<<Your call mate>>
Thanks again for your time and info Eric!
<<Happy to share Todd>>
Both my tanks are in wall tanks, I just bought my first home a few months ago,
so I’ve been waiting to do these tanks forever!
<<Ah, very nice...mine too is an in-wall system...love that look...>>
My 225G FOWLR is going to be set in a black rock wall, like on a fireplace.
<<Very nice! I used a fossilized reef rock (lots of gastropod and bi-valve
shells) to face the wall around my tank>>
And my reef tank is going to have a black acrylic frame going around the tank.
<<Mmm, yes...gives a very “finished” look to a tank when dressed this way>>
Can’t wait till I get them done!!!
<<I’ll bet...but don’t rush it>>
I’ll send you some photos when I get them finished.
<<Please do!>>
Thanks again for the info, Todd
<<Quite welcome, EricR>>
R3: Excessive Noise from My Tank Plumbing - 03/02/07
Hello again Eric,
<<Howdy Todd>>
Just curious but what do you use for your 375G reef filtration, what do you
have for the turnover rate through those components?
<<Mmm, okay... I have a 75g sump that is fed water directly from the tank to
the skimmer chamber; housing a Euro-Reef CS12-3, by two 1" overflows with a
third 1" overflow feeding a 55g downstream vegetable refugium that empties
to the pump chamber of the sump. Two DIY hang-on chemical reactors in the
sump hold Poly-Filter and iron-based phosphate media. A Mag-12 return pump
provides circulation through the sump, passing first through a chiller
located in the crawlspace under the house, and thus providing about 800 gph
of quite manageable turnover to the sump. Ancillary flow in the tank is
provided via the Tunze Stream pumps as previously stated>>
Thanks again for the info Eric; I'll leave you alone for awhile now.
<<No worries mate...is why I am here>>
Take it easy, Todd
<<And to you in kind, Eric Russell>>
R4: Excessive Noise from My Tank Plumbing - 03/04/07
Hello again Eric,
<<Hiya Todd>>
I guess I have one more question for you now that I have read your last email.
<<Ok>>
I see that you're getting 800 GPH from your Mag 12.
<<About...yes>>
I have a Mag 18 and 9.5 and am only getting like only 600 GPH!! Hmmmm!!
<<Indeed...and tis why I noted earlier, there must be some unusual head-loss due
to your plumbing configuration>>
I'm not doing something right here?
<<Something seems to be amiss for sure>>
I'm still testing with a Tupperware sump before a have my acrylic one built. So
right now the sumps right in the center below the tank, each pump is using 3/4
pvc, one union after pump outlet, up 2 feet, a 90-degree, over 2 1/2 feet, a
90-degree, up 5-inches to bulkhead, then up 30 inches to top of overflow,
90-degree out of overflow, centered-tee split into 2 6-inch sections of
centered-tube with 3-inch flared nozzles on each end. Each pump is plumbed
separately to each one of the 2 overflows with the exact same plumbing right
now.
<<Mmm, well Todd, with the ells, tees, and run lengths, I figure your
restrictions equal "at least" 11-feet of head-height on each pump...which
"should" still give you about 1100gph en toto (approximately 300gph from the
Mag-Drive 9.5 and approximately 825gph from the Mag-Drive 18). But there's more
at play here...I think the reason you aren't realizing even this much flow is
due to the 3/4" piping. It has been my experience with this brand of pump that
one can get better flow volume by "upsizing" the pipe on the output side of the
pump (I use 1" flex-PVC for my return line). If you can, increase the size of
the throughput at the tank as well...but even if you don't, just increasing the
pipe diameter from the output of the pump will help. Also, try reducing the
number of 90-degree ells in your plumbing. Either use two 45-degree fittings to
replace a 90-degree fitting...use "long-sweep" 90-degree ells (usually found in
the electrical section of Lowe's/HD...and are expensive), or use flex-PVC in
place of the hard pipe>>
And I do have one of those 3-inch long strainer fittings on each of the pumps
intake so nothing gets pulled in, they're those small ones, not like some of the
bigger ones that I've seen in some of the photos of Mag-Drives.
<<Shouldn't be an issue here...but neither are they necessary for a sump
installation, in my opinion>>
So it's not like I'm plumbing 20-feet with lots of 90's.
<<Oh, but it is my friend...all things considered>>
I'm going to try the flex pvc on the returns to see if that helps.
<<Am sure it will...especially if you get/put an adapter bushing on the pump and
use 1" flex>>
The pumps are fairly new so they should be operating fine.
<<Yes...just working them too hard>>
How do you have yours plumbed? Are you using bigger then 3/4" line? Flex pvc
or tube?
<<1” Flex>>
Any kind of centered tubing entering the tank with nozzles?
<<"Tee" fittings? …no>>
Or anything on your intake of the pump?
<<No intake screens either...>>
I'm stumped and just don’t get it!
<<Read over my replies...should start to make sense. And give me a shout if you
still have questions>>
Just thought I'd get your input before I took the next trip to the hardware
store!
<<And now you have it>>
It took me about 10 trips to get the drains the way I wanted!
<<Ha! I do understand...I made many a trip as well when I did my own tank
installation>>
I'll see if I can do the return in 5! HaHa! Right now just one of my two
overflows by itself with 1- 1" bulkhead and its 1 1/4" Dursopipe will handle the
Mag 18 and 9.5 (600GPH).
<<If a bit noisily, yes (isn't that how this exchange began? [grin])>>
I surly thought I'd be getting much more return then that, as I think I should
be!!
<<Agreed>>
My wife keeps making fun of me for checking my email so much after I ask you a
question.
<<Hee-hee!>>
It's like I'm a little kid waiting for Christmas morning when I'm waiting for
fish info! HaHa!
<<Well then...I'm glad I can provide a bright spot to your day!>>
She keeps on making fun of me saying "Oh I suppose you got to go see If the fish
guy emailed you yet?" You’re now the fish guy!
<<Could be worse [grin]>>
I you have any pics of your 375G or other tanks you have, I'd like to check them
out if you wanted to send some pics, your 375G sounds like a really cool setup!!
<<Thank you...but don't have anything recent to share…though yours is not the
first request re…perhaps I should take/post some pictures for sharing with those
interested to see such. I did have some installation pics from a few years back
posted on the local marine club website, but that server seems to be down>>
Thanks again for all your time and info; your thoughts are greatly
appreciated! Todd
<<It is my pleasure to share. Eric Russell>>
How to Quiet a Noisy Sump? 02/17/07
<Hi Susie, Mich with you tonight.>
I am wondering if there is any way to quiet a noisy sump?
<Yes, many. Would be easier if the source of the noise was
determined. Sometimes a piece of rigid insulation under the sump does the
trick. Sometimes just shifting, bracing or padding the pump will
help. Sometimes it's a water noise issue that can be modified. Figure out
the source of the noise pollution, and do a search on WWM, or some of the
other aquarium related sites. There are many ingenious solutions out
there. Hard to say which one might work for you.>
Thanks for your help. Susie
<You're welcome. -Mich>
Inline-Pump noise. Submersible Pump sufficient/practical? 2/4/07
Greetings, hope your day is going well.
<Thank you, Debi. (Ed?) Same to you.>
I could use some guidance and recommendations, but first a little information
about my set up. I have a 180 gallon fish only salt tank.
<Put the water inside the tank, NO! *IN*side the tank! ;) >
My cycle pump is a Little Giant #4 MDQXSC.
The pump performs well, but the noise is unbearable.
<Familiar complaint with the brand. Some quieter pumps include Blue-line,
Iwaki... for starters..>
I can't put all the blame on the pump, a lot has to do with the location of my
tank and cabinet.
The tank sits as a central display piece also acting as a room divider.
Also, one side of the cabinet has no doors or panels. A couch backs up to hide
equipment from view but does allow most all of the noise to escape. I tried
rubber under the pump and adding panels to help sound proof the cabinet but the
rubber did nothing, and the panels sealed off too much air circulation.
<Have you ever heard of Dynamat (Not dynomat, different product)? It can be
found in most higher-end mobile audio retailer/installer locations.>
Ok, so I'm back to square one. Not running a reef system may allow a
submersible pump to be a good option.
<Not sure I understand...>
I understand a submersible will contribute a little more heat than the Little
Giant.
<Not really a big issue here. The inline pump may let a lot of the heat it
generates off into the air, but a portion does bleed into he water, too.>
It is my understanding the pump by itself should not generate enough to be
concerned about, <Right...> so my common sense tells me it's the combination
with other equipment that may prohibit the use of a submersible. I began testing
heat output of my current equipment by shutting off the heater and monitoring
temperature.
In each 24 hours the tank has dropped one full degree.
<Careful here.>
Oddly, my area is not having a typical winter, but I would still want to factor
heat output to ascertain if I could anticipate a rising heat problem during
summer. You guys have been great and well respected by everyone in this
hobby. Any thoughts?
<Without more specific system info to rely on, I can't say whether it should be
ruled out, but there are viable alternatives that allow you to keep your
existing configuration. Research here or on the WWW re quiet inline pumps and
also availability of Dynamat. This product is amazing in how much sound it can
cancel.
-GrahamT>
Thanks
Ed Viloria (Debi? Hmm...> <<RMF would definitely look into a more quiet
make/model pump here>>
I Need a New (Quiet) Filter - 12/18/06
Hello again :-)
<<Hi Donna>>
I have 3 tanks, one of which is a 35g using a Penguin 350 BioWheel Filter. This
tank is in my bedroom, and my hubby cannot seem to get past the noise of the
filter & trickling water sounds.
<<Not a "pet-fish" person eh?>>
I am also not getting enough water circulation around my entire tank.
<<That's not good...>>
So…I am in the market for a new filter.
<<Okey-Dokey>>
I have looked at several, but am not sure which one to choose. Here is what I’m
looking at:
1. Diatom Model D-1 Filter (up to 55g)
2. A-175 Fluval 4 “Plus” Underwater Filter (up to 57g)
3. Magnum 350 Pro (up to 100g and includes BioWheel)
4. H.O.T. Magnum Pro System 250 (up to 50g, hang on tank, BioWheel)
5. Rena Filstar XP2 (up to 75g)
My first priority is noise level.
<<Understood>>
The filter must be super quiet (including water flow sounds), or basically
silent.
<<Then you'll likely want to skip any "BioWheel" attachments>>
As it would be quite costly for me to buy them all and try them, I’m hoping that
I can get some sound (haha) advice from this great group!
Thanks so much.
Donna
<<Well Donna, for bedroom duty I think you'll find the H.O.T. Magnum 250 (sans
BioWheel) will serve nicely. These units run quietly, and since you won't be
paying for/using the BioWheel, you might even consider getting/using two on this
tank for the additional filtration and flow. You could fill one with
bio-media...and fill the other with chemical media. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Standpipe Mods...Keeping the Peace - 09/17/06
Hi Crew,
<<Hello Tom>>
I have a 135G acrylic reef tank, 25" tall, with a built in center
overflow. In the bottom of the overflow there is a 1.5" bulkhead
(drains to sump via Durso standpipe) and a 1" bulkhead (return from
sump). I'd like to change the 1" bulkhead to be a 2nd drain
directly into a new fuge section, while the 1.5" remains draining
into the skimmer section.
<<Sounds like the "new 'fuge section" is part of the main sump,
yes? While you can do so, it is not "necessary" to feed raw tank
water to the refugium...there will be plenty of excess nutrients
that will escape the skimmer section of the sump>>
Both sections would combine to the return section with an upgraded
1000GPH return pump...the new sump w/bubble traps should be able to
handle the higher throughput.
<<Mmm, yes...but will the returns? I'm gonna guess you'll get about
600gph through the 1.5" bulkhead and about 300gph through the 1"
bulkhead before things start to get complicated/noisy. So you are
correct...with head loss (and the addition of a gate-valve on the
output side of the pump) a 1000gph pump will be about right>>
The old pump is 500GPH. In the new setup I think I want about 1/3
of the flow to drain to the fuge section, 2/3 to the skimmer
section.
<<Is about what you will get>>
The new return pipe would run up and over the rear of the tank.
<<Okay>>
All this is pretty straightforward, but I want the drain(s) to
remain quiet.
<<Indeed>>
A 2nd Durso won't fit in the overflow.
<<Mmm...>>
And the current Durso won't remain functional with another drain in
the bottom of the overflow. How would you go about it?
<<Well Tom, I certainly understand about wanting to keep things
"quiet", and using plain unmodified standpipes rarely gives this
result so you will need to use some kind of "silenced" rig. Ken
Stockman developed a design he calls the Aqua-Silencer (formerly the
"Stockman Standpipe") which is purported to be just as or more quiet
than the Durso Standpipe, but takes up less space in the overflow
chamber (originally developed for use with the smallish
siphon-overflow boxes). Premium Aquatics sells a model to fit 1"
bulkheads, and you could easily DIY one for the 1.5" bulkhead (or
for both bulkheads for that matter!) yourself based on information
available on Ken's site
http://home.nc.rr.com/stockmanreef/interest.htm). This
standpipe design also looks to be aspirated, which may give you a
few more "gallons-per-hour" if needed/wanted. So, see if this
standpipe design solves your problem...if not, give me another
holler if you like and we'll brainstorm the possibilities. That's
how I would go about it...>>
Thanks,
Tom
<<Regards, EricR>>
Overflow Noise/Glass Scratches - 08/15/06
Hi,
<<Hello!>>
I have a 54G RR Corner tank with a 1" drain and a 3/4" return.
<<Sadly undersized throughputs...even on this volume of water>>
I bought the whole reef set up used, but I can't imagine how the previous owner
tolerated the noise!
<<Mmm, indeed...you can't really put much water through a 1" drain before it
becomes problematic>>
I installed a 1.25" Durso standpipe (1" did not work, now I follow directions,
doh!). I have a 1/8" drilled hole in the top of the T of the Durso. It was
fascinating to watch the relationship between the air hole size, the drain line
position relative to the sump water level, and the gurgling and flushing effect.
<<Ah yes, you are finding out just how "fiddly" it can be. I would like to
suggest you try enlarging the hole just enough to push some airline tubing
through and down in to the standpipe. This will help with aspirating/releasing
air from the drain line and often eases the gurgling sounds. It will take some
experimentation to determine the best length/diameter tubing to insert>>
As I slowly increased the air hole from a pinhole up to 1/8", I observed the
step by step decrease in flushing effect amplitude.
<<Yes...allowing that air I mentioned to escape more readily>>
It started at about a 3-inch oscillation, at 1/8, it was gone
completely. Adjusting the drain pipe position also impacted the flushing effect
and required small changes in the air hole.
<<Pretty much all comes down to eliminating the obstructions (air bubbles) to
the water flow>>
OK, on to my questions: I have extensive bubbling/gurgling noise in the sump
from the drain.
<<From air that is "carried" down the line by the water>>
I have read on WWM two things to try: A "T" or "Y" fitting on the drain line,
and aspirating the drain line from the top with air line tubing.
<<Yes indeedy...though I prefer a 45- or 90-degree ell fitting on the end of the
drain line>>
I am confused about the specifics of both of these. For the T or Y fitting, how
is it positioned?
<<Is of little consequence...just position to direct flow in the direction you
desire>>
I am guessing that it goes at the bottom of the drain line, with one leg
submerged and one leg above the sump water level?
<<Mmm, okay...I think I'm with you now. The purpose of the fitting on the end
of the drain line is to "slow" the rush of water a bit. So...experiment with
the position to determine which gives you best results. Either way you position
it, I find that having the end of the drain line completely submerged usually
works best. And do be aware, it is usually not practical to expect a 1" drain
to flow more than about 300/350 gph without much hassle and noise, as you seem
to be experiencing>>
For the aspiration tubing, is the tube supposed to have its own hole separate
from the existing air line in the Durso T cap?
<<Refer to my earlier comments re>>
Or does it simply go down the same hole?
<<Yup!>>
It also seems to me that the bubble/gurgle would be reduced if I had the water
break on some live rock rubble or other irregular surface.
<<Can give it a try>>
I think I have seen reference to using filter pad material.
<<A detritus trap>>
Next question: Even though I only have about a 2-inch drop from the overflow
wall to the top of the water behind it, it still makes an annoying, trickle
noise that induces the need to visit the bathroom at night (tank is in the
bedroom).
<<Hee!>>
I am thinking of installing some kind of stepladder down to the surface. Or
perhaps a piece of filter pad would also suffice. How have you seen this done?
<<Raise the height of the standpipe to raise the surface of the water in the
overflow...it only needs to "fall" a fraction of an inch or so>>
Last, the tank is used, and has a good number of extremely fine scratches that
are visible depending on angle and lighting. I have read that you generally shy
away from glass polishing/buffing, but that usually seemed to be because the
emailer was asking about significant/deep scratches. What do you think about
using a commercial buffer on an orbital drill pad, and follow with a thorough
cleaning?
<<I think you'll do one of two things...nothing at all...or make it
worse. Scratches in glass "can" be repaired/removed, but unless you really know
what you're doing/have done this before, I recommend you refer to a professional
for advice/consultation. You may find it is easier/cheaper to replace the
tank...or learn to ignore/accept the scratches>>
Jack
<<Regards, EricR>>
Live Rock/skimmer noise - 8/1/6
Hi There,
<<Hello.>>
I was just wondering if you could give a newbie some advice. I have recently set
up a new tank; it’s a 160 litre tank with about 9 kilo of live rock in it so far
(I have to buy it a bit at a time, as it’s very expensive!). I have a Fluval 205
external filter and a red sea prism protein skimmer, and it is lit by a pair of
Arcadia T5 bulbs, the twin tube Marine Blue Actinic variety.
<<Ok.>>
As yet I haven't stocked it with any fish, as I have a few concerns with the
water quality.
<<Best to go slowly and learn.>>
At the moment I am still cycling my tank, and performing a few water changes,
and it currently stands at PO4 - 0.25 ppm, NH3 - 1.3 ppm, NO2 - 3.3 ppm and
NO3 - 70ppm. Now, having successfully kept tropical fresh fish in the past, I
know that these are high.
<<Yes.>>
Does the living rock have any effect on the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite levels?
<<Of course, that is one reason it is so coveted. It contains a lot of
nitrifying bacteria, <And denitrifying and habitat/space for same. RMF>and a
wonderful place for more to grow.>>
My tank is in my room so I have a problem with he amount of noise the skimmer is
making, is there any inherent problem with switching off the skimmer at night,
or will I have to just put up with it, I was planning on keeping soft coral and
anemones, as well as other inverts.
<<Earplugs are your best bet.>>
There is no way I can move the tank.
If you could help, and give your input, I would appreciate it,
Many thanks,
Chris
<<Glad to help. Lisa.>>
Water Noise vs. Flow Rates - 06/30/06
Hi!
I am looking for a solution to eliminate noise from the overflow.
<<A very common venture>>
I tried everything and I started to believe a silent overflow is a myth.
<<Hee! Indeed! At least at the "higher" flow rates>>
Now there is a way and it would be to dramatically reduce the flow rate.
<<This is what I always advocate. There are other things you can do to
help...such as aspirating the return lines, submerging/adding ells to the
termination ends, etc. ...but reducing flow probably makes the single largest
difference. Few hobbyists (if any) need to push 1500gph or more through their
sump. Much easier to deal with a sub- 1000gph flow rate here...employing other
methods for increased flow in the display as/if necessary>>
I have reached the point where it's either that or get rid of the sump and
install an external skimmer.
<<Mmm, let's work on quieting that overflow...>>
Right now the skimmer is in the 1st chamber of the sump. There is already good
circulation in the display (15X per hour) from 2 Tunze Stream 6100 with a
multicontroller.
<<Excellent! Reducing flow through the overflow/sump should not be an issue
then>>
I do a 5% weekly water change. Most of the sump (25 gal) is in fact a fuge for
plankton/pod production and macro-algae.
<<All the more reason to keep it>>
Display is 90 gal reef with 150lbs Fiji LR and sugar fine 5"
DSB. In these circumstances do you see any long term problems involved in
having a flow rate from the return pump of only 6X per day instead of 6X per
hour?
<<Mmm...if I understand you, this would equate to just over 20gph (540gph
divided by 24hrs). This is slower than I like, but I think a flow rate of
200gph-300gph would be fine...and easily dealt with/made quiet>>
If I may ask at the same time a bioload question.
<<Sure>>
I am thinking of some change and would like to know if this is too many fish.
<<Okay>>
Is this a heavy bioload with my set-up, would I be on the edge? :
-2 Ocellaris
-5 to 7 Chromis viridis
-1 clown goby (Gobiodon histrio)
-1 mandarin
-1 Tailspot blenny (genus Ecsenius)
-1 yellow tang (Z. flavescens)
<<This would indeed fill you up. I would like to suggest you forego the
mandarin. This tank isn't really large enough (refugium or not) in my opinion
to be able to provide the necessary nutritional needs for this fish for the long
term. I would also suggest you keep the number of Chromis to 5, until you see
what (if any) behavioral/environmental issues develop>>
Lastly, would an Ecsenius blenny (like the Tailspot) be helpful to control
Caulerpa growth in the display?
<<I doubt it...the Combtooth blennies are more "filamentous" algae feeders. The
tang will probably be more useful for this purpose, though there's no guarantee
of that either>>
And what about a tuxedo blue urchin (Mespilia globulus) for that same purpose?
<<A neat critter...and likely a worthwhile addition...but it too will probably
go for your hair, and most assuredly your coralline, algae first. You best bet
re removal of the Caulerpa is manual extraction. If you can manual reduce it
enough, the tang might be able to keep it in check for you. I guess you'll know
better than to add this to your display next time, eh! <grin> >>
Many many thanks!
Dominique
<<Quite welcome. Regards, EricR>>
Re: Water Noise vs. Flow Rates 7/1/06
Thanks Eric!
<<You're very welcome Dominique>>
The Caulerpa I didn't add to the display and not even to the fuge as I am using
Chaetomorpha and red Gracilaria instead.
<<Ah yes, much better choices in my opinion. I utilize Chaetomorpha in my
refugium myself>>
It just appeared there uninvited and in two species.
<<Hate it when that happens...>>
Regarding the mandarin I have to say I kept one for 7 months and it was still
fat, but it jumped out of the tank.
<<Hmm, I've never known/heard these fish to be jumpers. Would make me think
environmental conditions/tank mates were not suitable for it...possibly. Please
don't misunderstand my tone here <grin>, but the vast majority of these fish
"slowly" starve to death within twelve months. There's always exceptions, and
of course those few dedicated hobbyists (maybe you're one of these!) that strive
to provide suitable care/environments for these fish...but for the majority of
folks, Synchiropus species are best left in the ocean. If you're
determined/dedicated to keeping this fish, please research all you can re their
care/husbandry on our site and the net in general>>
This made me place a net in an anodized aluminum frame over the top of the tank
so it won't ever happen again. So to summarize your answer: bioload should be
ok (I won't get more than 5 Chromis) and even thought it's not ideal I should
not have problems with the 20gph flow rate.
<<Indeed...a couple hundred gallons per hour at least. If noise is still an
issue, do write back and I’ll gladly address this with you further>>
Thanks again!
Dominique
<<Cheers my friend, EricR>>
Water Noise vs. Flow Rates III - 07/02/06
Mmmm... I am already down to 35 gal per hour now and it is still too noisy.
<<Hmm, strange...wish I had a visual of your drain plumbing...a drawing/picture
would be of help...and just how noisy is "too noisy?">>
I just brought it down to that recently. The thing is until a week ago (that is
for 12 months, the tank has a bit over one year now), I had part of the flow
going through a siphon (simply three 1/2" flexible tubings taking water from the
display's surface and siphoning down to the sump, i.e. as for a water change but
to the sump instead of the bucket...).
<<Understood...a siphon overflow without the box>>
This was efficient but messy and annoying for many reasons. One reason being
that it clogged frequently...
<<...?>>
A week ago I decided to remove them and have all the flow go
through the real overflow (1.5" pvc and 2" at the intake) and just reduce flow
until I hear almost nothing.
<<It should be easy for this diameter piping to handle several hundred gallons
per hour and remain relatively quiet...starting to suspect other factors are at
play here>>
So far I didn't notice any change in skimmate production of my skimmer (Tunze).
<<Great skimmers>>
The tank is a Perfecto with tempered glass for the bottom, so it was not drilled
in the bottom but in the back panel about 8" from the surface.
<<Ah, okay, this is my preferred method for drilling/plumbing overflows
actually...less chance for catastrophic failure as opposed to punching holes in
the bottom...but I'm thinking now that aspirating that drain line may be of
help. This involves inserting a piece of tubing (determining length and
diameter will require some experimentation...but you can start with simple
airline tubing) in to the drain line to allow trapped air to escape, thus
reducing turbulence and noise. Adding a 45 or 90 degree ell to the termination
end of the drain may also help with noise...along with submerging the end of the
drain line beneath the surface of the water in the sump. It's difficult for me
to say definitively what will work...these issues often require much
fiddling/experimentation. I don't doubt your word at all, but I do wonder how
such a small flow rate as you indicate can be so noisy...unless there is
something very odd/unique about this plumbing>>
So you have the whole picture now.
<<Mmm yes, well...as much as my feeble brain power can amass <grin> >>
I am not too optimistic about that issue.
<<Honestly Dominique, this shouldn't be an issue from what I can see (read). Is
there anything else you can tell me about your plumbing? Some element you've
overlooked?>>
I think I will have to reduce flow to 20gph or get rid of sump.
<<Keep the sump...>>
What I don't understand is why it's an issue to have such a low flow rate if I
have good circulation in the display.
<<Has more to do with your refugium and skimmer efficiency than the
display. Chaetomorpha and Gracilaria macro algae seem to perform/prosper better
with brisk flow rates...some authors even advocate setups/flow rates to keep the
alga constantly "tumbling" in the refugium. Though I must admit I have found
that tumbling Chaetomorpha is not necessary from a functional/algae health
standpoint, though growth/nutrient uptake may not be as efficient when the algae
clump is "static">>
From what I read it will even benefit plankton in the fuge and give more time to
the skimmer to work on an amount of water.
<<All true...but is my feeling there is a certain threshold below which
benefit/efficiency is diminished>>
I'm a beginner so I am sure I am missing many things here and I trust you more
than I trust myself on that... :)
<<Well Dominique, let me suggest this...give the reduced flow rate (20 gph) a
try if you wish...keeping an eye out for any deleterious effect on your
display/refugium...it "is" possible all will be fine. If it becomes evident you
need to increase the flow through your sump, then give my suggestions for
quieting the overflow a try. And in the meantime if you want to send me a
picture(s)/diagram(s) of your plumbing system for a better appraisal, I'm happy
to do that>>
Ok, Thanks again!
Dominique
<<A pleasure to assist. Regards, EricR>>
Water Noise vs. Flow Rates IV - 07/03/04
Thanks Eric!
<<Always welcome Dominique>>
I will eventually send you a picture.
<<Great!>>
I think I'll wait a few weeks and give you a report on how things are going with
my new flow rate together with a picture.
<<Sounds fine>>
I feel better about it since you told me it is possible it works and not
necessarily a dead end.
<<Hee hee! Time will tell...>>
I also want to send you a picture and links regarding my tank cover.
<<Please do>>
I am very pleased with the result and I think some aquarists may be interested.
<<Indeed>>
Not a new concept for sure, but it's what I found that looks best and is least
invasive. You really don’t see it much. For me it's all the advantages of an
open top -even visually- without the inconvenience (carpet surfing...).
<<I am interested to see...evaluate its ability for light penetration>>
I am also working on a plan for continuous plankton culture integrated to an
automated water change system. Maybe you can tell me if you think it's silly.
<<Not "silly" at all...though I would need more info to give an educated
response. My immediate concern would be how the plankton will be
"introduced"...new raw seawater can be quite harsh/hard on delicate (and
sometimes not so delicate) marine life>>
I will be happy to experiment with this but if you think it's not worth it then
maybe I won't go there.
<<Let's see what you have in mind...>>
My sump is drilled and a 1" pvc is going to go from the sump to the apartment's
drain. In the closet I placed a 210L plastic container with new aerated
saltwater with a MagDrive on a timer (Neptune Jr.). I think you follow me: new
saltwater comes and excess water goes in the drain...
<<With ya so far matey>>
Now the new saltwater would go first in a 8L container next to the fuge. That
8L would contain a phytoplankton continuous culture. They would be under T5
bulbs like the rest of the sump. No fertilizer used and I understand it will be
a lower production than intensive batch culture. No contamination, water comes
from the new saltwater reserve (sterilized first). New saltwater would come to
this 8L each 4 hours for a total of about 2.5L per day (that is around 30% water
replacement).
<<But not "daily" right? This would be a weekly/bi-weekly process?>>
That 8L container would cascade partly directly into the fuge and for another
part in a second smaller container (4L) that would contain a rotifer culture
(Brachionus plicatilis). That 4L container would itself overflow into the
fuge. So the 4L also gets a 30% per day water replacement rate. Is it
crazy? Do I need a shrink? ;)
<<Mmm, maybe <grin>. A few things to mention...1- changing 30% of your system
water on a "daily" basis is too much, too often. This would be a continuous
chemical/physical/biological shock to the system...2- flooding your cultures
with new, raw seawater will likely cause them to crash...3- Adding and draining
the water from the same location (sump) will result in much of the "new" water
wasting down the drain. I don't want to squash your creative urges, but do take
these points under consideration and perhaps come up with an alternate plan.>>
Dominique
<<Be chatting my friend, Eric Russell>>
Blueline Pump Noise 6/16/06
Hi Crew:
<Gregory>
It’s been a while since I needed to bother you guys, but…?!
I have a new Blueline pump and it is making a lot of noise. It is hard to tell
whether it is from the pump or the PVC leading to the pump. It might be
cavitation, but how to tell??
<Drain the water from this plumbing, turn the pump on and listen...>
I have a 2” drain that is eventually cut down to a 1 ½” ball valve and then the
1” input for the pump.
<... there should not be such a restriction/ball-valve in front of the pump...
this, like most centrifugal pumps made for aquarium applications is for
"pushing" not pulling... in other words, you may well have a cavitation issue>
One interesting thing (at least to me) is that when I pour my water change or
top off water near the input to the pump, the bubbles make the pump almost
silent.
<Dangerous to mix water and air together here...>
I don’t know if that means anything but thought I would mention it.
I thought these pumps were pretty quiet, so thought I would ask. Have you guys
heard anything…have any suggestions for me?? Thanks, Greg
<Mmm, you've tried opening the ball valve completely? I'd remove any intake
screens from this side of the pumps, and see if this quiets this pump down...
you may have air trapped around the impeller/volute that could account for this
noise as well... this can be a bit hard to remove, but may be able to be flushed
by pressurizing the line (like with a garden hose) while the pump is temporarily
turned off. Bob Fenner>
Re: Blueline Pump Noise 6/17/06
Hi Bob:
<Greg>
Thanks a lot for the advice. One thing I was not clear on...when you say that
"<... there should not be such a restriction/ball-valve in front of the
pump... this, like most centrifugal pumps made for aquarium applications is for
"pushing" not pulling... in other words, you may well have a cavitation
issue>", are you saying that the valve should not be there at all or that it
should always be fully open?
<Ideally not at all. Even if open, there is some induced drag... Some folks do
use such "true union" valves as a means of "breaking" a connection for removing
the pump, or more distal gear (w/o water spilling everywhere), but better to not
have any such restriction/s ahead of centrifugal pumps... only after>
In my case the valve is always completely
open. It is between the bulkhead and my quick disconnect.
<Ahhh! I see...>
I only close it if I need to shut off the water to prevent the sump from
draining when I want to disengage the quick disconnect for cleaning or
maintenance on the pump.
<Yes>
Let me know if this is still a bad idea.
<Not a perfect one, but should be fine. I would try increasing the pressure on
the discharge side to see if this quiets down this pump/application... and even
opening/closing this discharge restriction to see if this will "vent" the
aforementioned "air bubble" that may be "hanging up" around your impeller...
unbalancing same, causing the noise...>
And, if so, how would you
plumb this to allow for easy maintenance on the pump?
<Mmm, would need to see all... but there are some brands of true union ball
valves that are almost "completely smooth" in their bores when fully open that
are about perfect for this one issue>
Thanks again for all your help. You guys are a great resource and much
appreciated!!! Greg.
PS: I was sad to read that you may not proceed with the further NMA
volumes...my copy of the first one is falling apart from [over]use!!
<Mmm, this opera's not over... Bob Fenner>
Re: Blueline Pump Noise 6/18/06
Hi Bob (again):
<Greg>
Mostly I wanted to thank you for your replies. I still find it hard to believe
that you do this.
<Heeeee!>
I think you must be a marine bodhisattva (and or a really good soul)!!
<Now I can't get those Steely Dan riffs out of my mind! "Won't you take me by
the fin..."?>
Anyway, I have tried some of the things you suggested, with the exception of
replumbing the lagoon. The good news is that my pump is very quiet...when I
apply considerable pressure to the discharge side of the pump.
<Ah, yes>
Unfortunately, as you will no doubt guess, this considerably restricts the
flow (but at least I like my pump again!!) I am almost resigned to removing all
of the plumbing on the intake side.
<This will be best>
However, I had one more idea. Do you think it would do any good to have a
considerable run (feet) of 1" PVC before the pump intake in hopes of damping
the turbulence before it reaches the pump?? [1" is the diameter of the pump
intake.] I am bowing to you in the West now as the sun rises on our coast!!!
<laugh> Thanks Bob!! Greg.
<Mmm, let's see... in general, there is not much benefit from "up sizing"
plumbing before or after the volute more than the diameter of their fittings...
and sometimes some downside... I would likely change all this to one inch ID if
you were going the route of removing the plumbing any who. Bob Fenner>
Noisy Plumbing...A Very Common Issue - 05/04/06
Hello Crew.
<<Hiya Joe!>>
I have been a long time reader and the information you provide to us novices via
this site and Bob and Anthony's books is truly invaluable.
<<Thank you, tis comforting to know folks find it of use/value>>
After pouring through the FAQs on plumbing and plumbing related noises, I think
I have identified the problem and have a couple possible solutions but wanted a
second opinion before I started ripping out plumbing and drilling my sump.
<<Alrighty>>
First some background information. After running a 29 gallon reef setup for 3
years now with no loss of life (except a flying neon Dottyback who wasn't found
in time after a third and final escape attempt) I took the plunge and started
putting together a 150 gallon 48X24x31 tank with the assistance of the "experts"
at my local LFS.
<<Mmm, do I sense some discontent? <G> >>
I took the recommendation of the LFS who assured me they had used this exact
setup on a couple of occasions and that it was extremely quiet.
<<And I'm guessing now it wasn't?>>
So of course, I bit, despite better judgment and paid them to set it up with the
following recommended plumbing configuration:
2 black acrylic corner overflow boxes approx 8X4X4 each with 2" bulkhead exiting
tank approx 1-inch from top then exiting to a tee reduced down to 1 1/2" ID
PVC. Top of each tee is capped with small hole for aspiration.
<<Not all that different to my configuration...but you're missing the piece of
tubing/small diameter pipe that needs to extend through the hole in the cap down
in to the moving/falling water>>
Left drain pipe drops 30" into a right-hand elbow which then runs the length of
the tank into a tee where it connects to the right side drain pipe. From there,
the combined flow then elbows under the tank into the a 40X20X20 4 chambered
acrylic sump. The section that the drain pipe enters the sump is completely
enclosed with the exception of the hole for the 1 1/2" PVC pipe and small
opening created by first chamber divider about 2" from bottom and one 2" wide at
top. The drain pipe stops about 1/2" from top of water line.
<<I would add a 45-degree elbow and submerge the output end>>
The four chamber dimensions are 6.5" drain section, 15" for refugium, 5" section
with sponge in bottom for baffling and bubble diffusion, 13.5" section for
return pumps, skimmer, etc. Skimmer is located under the tank in a cabinet and
noise from the sump is minimal with front doors closed. The back of the stand
is completely open. Return pumps are 2 Mag 12 submersible pumps. The first is
plumbed via 3/4" flexible tubing to a PVC tee that feeds two return lines that
overhang each side of the tank next to the corner overflow boxes and are
terminated with flexible ball joint tubing for directional control of flow. The
second pump drives a return via 3/4" flexible tubing to a Squid device that
alternates flow to each two more return lines. These returns overhang the back
of the tank just inside the other 2 return lines. There appears to be a good
turbulent flow in the tank and the adjustable nozzles on each of the 4 return
lines should allow me to adjust the flow once I start aquascaping.
<<Indeed>>
Anti-siphon holes are drilled into each of the four heads of the return lines.
<<I wouldn't trust these...is best to adjust inlets/outlets such that the sump
will handle all transient water flow in the event of a power failure>>
Sorry for no diagram but hope I was able to describe it well enough to give you
a decent mental picture of the setup.
<<I think so, yes>>
Problem: the system is louder than my dishwasher and washing machine combined.
<<I'm not surprised...just guessing at head pressure here, but I'll bet you're
pushing 1500+ gph through that sump>>
We had to turn it off the first night because you couldn't sleep upstairs with
the noise downstairs.
<<Yikes! And I thought (in my instance) just not being able to hear the
television/carry on a normal conversation was problematic>>
The caps with aspiration holes on top of the tees coming out of the 2" bulkheads
were installed the day after initial setup and helped dampen some of the noise,
but a massive gurgling sound and waterfall effect with a back and forth swishing
kicker can still be heard coming out of the left drain pipe.
<<Indeed, not really "aspirating at all...needs the tubing, experimentation with
diameter/length>>
Additionally, you can see the left drain pipe shake at the bottom which I'm
guessing is not a good thing.
<<Violent water movement...>>
Analysis: having the left drain pipe plumbed into the same return to the sump as
the right drain pipe is turning two 1 1/2" drain lines into one and restricting
my net system turnover rate and my drain lines are not keeping up with the
return lines.
<<Yup>>
Possible Solution: eliminate the 48" run back to the first chamber of the sump
and plumbing the left hand drain pipe directly to the equipment chamber. This
would be the most direct path back to the sump from the left side of the tank,
but I would lose the benefit of the rest of the sump and possibly introduce
micro bubbles into the system.
<<Agreed...nut I think the best solution would be to plumb the drain as a
closed-loop...thus reducing the volume of water processed through the sump...and
no micro-bubbles>>
Was hoping that if I could deal with the possible micro bubble problem by
plumbing below the water line that the tank would still turn over enough through
the sump with the feed from the right side drain pipe.
<<Not a worry...even as little as 500 gph through your sump would be fine...and
a whole lot easier to deal with>>
Another alternative I was contemplating was to get rid of the tee into the right
hand drain pipe, keep the 48" run but drill a second whole into the first 6.5"
chamber and retain the benefit of the current sump design.
<<Maybe...if properly aspirating/submerging the drain lines takes care of the
noise issue>>
My concern here is that there is still a 30" drop from the bulkhead to the elbow
which may leave me with the waterfall and swishing sounds and also there is
quite a distance for the water to travel back to the sump.
<<Where elbows must be utilized, some back pressure/restriction can be eased by
using two 45-degree |
