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More FAQs about Pump/Plumbing Noise, Prevention, Abatement and
Aquarium Systems... or Save My Sanity, PLEASE! 3
Related Articles:
Plumbing Marine Systems
by Bob Fenner,
Myth of the One Inch Beast
(Why Relying on One Inch Overflows... or Overflow! Is foolhardy)
by Scott Vallembois,
Plumbing Return Manifolds,
Refugiums, Related FAQs:
Pump/Plumbing Noise 1,
Pump/Plumbing Noise 2, Pump/Plumbing
Noise 3, Pump/Plumbing Noise 4,
Pump/Plumbing Noise 5, &
Marine Plumbing 1, Marine Plumbing 2,
Marine Plumbing 4, Marine Plumbing 5,
Marine Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7,
Plumbing 8, Plumbing 9,
Plumbing 10, Plumbing 11,
Plumbing 12, Plumbing 13,
Plumbing 14,
Plumbing 15, Plumbing
16,
Plumbing 17, Plumbing 18,
Holes & Drilling,
Durso Standpipes, Overflow Boxes,
Bubble Trouble, Make Up Water
Systems,
Pumps, Plumbing,
Circulation,
Sumps, Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2,
Gear Selection for Circulation,
Pump Problems, Fish-Only
Marine Set-ups,
Fish-Only Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish
and Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems,
Coldwater Systems, Small Systems,
Large Systems, Water Changes, Surge
Devices, | 
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Loud Overflow (Another Overwhelmed “Mega” Drain) – 07/17/08
I
have recently set up a 90 gallon reef tank with a central inside the
tank standard Mega overflow kit.
<<As yes, the grossly overstated
1-inch overflow kit>>
It drains through a one-inch bulkhead into a
30gallon sump below the stand. I have been doing a lot of research
concerning Stockman, Durso, and Hofer gurgle overflow pipe constructs
that supposedly will quiet down the gurgling noise.
<<Will help…as
long as you aren’t simply overcoming the drain with too much flow.
Regardless of what may be stated in your kit, trying to run more than
300gph through a 1-inch gravity drain is trouble>>
I am still
confused which one will work best for an inside the tank overflow which
is 24 inches tall.
<<Differing means to the same end. All will
probably elicit a change…finding which one fits and performs best for
your situation/setup will take some experimentation>>
I am worried
about handling the outflow.
<<…?>>
I have a Gen-X pcx-40 pump
<<Yikes! Unless you have a ton of headloss or this pump is throttled
way-back, it is way too much pump for a single 1-inch drain (see my
earlier comment re)! You have a dangerous potential for flooding, and as
you have discovered, noisy siphon effect going>>
which I plumbed into
our crawlspace for noise control, and the standard design of the Hofer
gurgle pipe only handles 5-600 gph.
<<In reality this is plenty…the
concern is over how much flow your 1-inch drain can safely handle
(300gph)>>
I was trying to determine should I increase the size of
Hofer gurgle to 1.5 inch and 2 inch pipe, does it need to be taller than
the design on their website which is only 5 inches tall and then extend
the air tubing above the water line, or is there a better option for
noise control that can handle the overflow?
<<I would follow the
recommendations of the designers…and visit/query the reef forums for
others input re their design modifications, if any. But the real issue
you need to address is flow rate. As stated, you just have too much
water being pumped to the tank for the 1-inch overflow to handle. I
would suggest you downsize the return pump (best option), or at the
least install a gate valve on the output side of the pump to reduce flow
to that which the drain can safely handle…even with an aftermarket
“gurgle pipe”>><RMF would have another drain line drilled, fitted.>
Thanks,
Mark
<<Good luck with your plumbing project. EricR>>
Tank plumbing
Siphoning Overflow 7/1/08
I was setting up the
plumbing for a 20 gallon tank I'm using as a frag tank. It is drilled
from the bottom with a 2" PVC going straight down into a 20 gallon
refugium/sump.
<A serious overflow for a 20 gal!>
Its a straight
drop into the refugium and I have a 'T' in the PVC and under the 'T' a
ball valve, so that I can regulate the flow go into the refugium and the
rest of the water will be diverted into the side of the sump with the
mechanical filter, and in the middle of the sump is the return. I built
the stand as well but didn't get around to putting any paneling on it so
its quite loud. To solve this I extended the PVC down into water,
realizing this would make that lovely toilet flushing sound, but
thinking it would be more tolerable than the sound of the water crashing
into the sump.
<Both are curable.>
My question is can I drill a
hole into the PVC just above the waterline to solve the problem of the
toilet flushing sound?
<Yes, tis the solution, even with such a
large drain line. Drill just large enough to slip a piece of vinyl or
other tubing in to slide up and down, you will need the end of the line
inside the pipe about an inch or two below the waterline inside the pipe
to prevent siphoning.>
If not, is there any other way to work around
this problem?
<Nope, you have the solution.>
Given the choice,
I'll take the toilet flushing over a waterfall, but it would be nice to
be able to fix it.
<You can fix both.>
Thanks.
<Welcome, Scott
V> Re: Had enough
noise...Need help!!! 6/16/08
Thanks Bob ! for your response,
<Welcome Jun!>
Rich actually response back and he said that it
might(?) fit.
But after reading these (Durso pipe style) in your
site, I figured I will just make my own... heck, if I was able to
remodel my kitchen myself I believe I can do this one!
<I'll say!>
One more problem that I have is, I got this Coralife lighting system
(pro series) 2 HQI 150w a pc/ 2 actinic CF and it's 48" inches long... I
got it really really cheap at this FS which is closing down, now the
problem is that I have a canopy which is 12" high (measure fr the
outside) and probably 10" if measured fr the inside. I know you're not
suppose to put this type of lighting system in there but can't resist on
buying it for only $250. Is there anyway that I can make this happen?
<Yes... should be able to add some reflectance, thermal shielding...>
there should be enough clearance on top, after placing this lighting
(maybe 2") and the sides I have no problem as the tank is 60"
long...I was thinking of putting a few fans and drill some holes at the
very top of the canopy to release the heat?
<Yes... I'd even have a
few extra holes/chimneys for passive release>
as hot air goes upward
?
<Last time I checked in this universe, yes>
what would be your
suggestion...
pls pls don't say I have to give up either one of
them...canopy or lighting.
<You don't>
One last question (I
know), I got this ASM G1 (loved it!) that comes with the G500 pump
(forgot the brand)
<Mmm... likely a Rio>
and it's not Sedra...
after reading your site there is another one ASM G1X ?
<Sure>
what is the difference between the two?
<Capacity... flow rate,
pressure>
the G1X comes with a Sedra 3500 pump which I believe is
more powerful than the G500... can I replace mine with the Sedra 3500 ?
<Yes and yes>
and will it make a huge difference.
<Appreciable,
yes>
My wife said I read more of your book than the Bible, I
said....that is my Bible, "Fish" Bible!
<Glad for the clarification>
...we didn't talk for a couple of days...but we're ok now... man! I love
this hobby.
Cheers
Jun
<Me too! Cheers! BobF!>
Noisy Plumbing 5/28/08
Hello crew,
<Hello Paul.>
I have
just began test running a new 110g setup. I have 2 1.5" drain lines
drilled a few inches from the top on the back glass enclosed in an
overflow box. The drain lines come out of the back in a 90 with a
drilled hole at the top. They then fall 10" and have a 45 facing toward
the wall, run another 8" to another 45 to point down to the floor. They
then run through the floor to the sump with more a couple of more 45's
and 90's into the sump. Total distance is about 14'.
<OK>
My
return pump is a ReeFlo Barracuda. I have 2 1/2" return lines that total
about 480gph completely open. The rest of the flow splits between a 29g
refugium and a line back to the 100g sump/refugium. I have the typical
sucking noise from the overflow box as well as the gushing sound in the
drain lines.
<Sounds like siphoning.>
I have used rigid tubing
for aspiration but cannot seem to quiet it down. My tubing is only about
12". Should I get longer tubing and to try and get it down further?
<What you have should work in respect to the upper elbow.>
The noise
seems to begin between the 2 45's. Are the 2 1.5" drain lines too small?
<Not for 480 gph.>
The noise is greatly reduced if I scale it back to
280gph on the return lines but that doesn't seem to be enough turnover.
<No.>
Reading through your site suggests that I should be able to get
500(quiet)gph through 2 1.5" bulkheads. <Easily.> Also, any suggestions
on quieting down the overflow box. The overflow is from Glass-Holes and
it comes with a plastic shield around the top of each bulkhead so that
the water is pulled from underneath to reduce suction.
<Actually to
keep the noise issues of the water running down the line from happening.
I actually designed this system ?>
The fact that the water level in
the overflow box remains so low suggests that I don't have enough return
flow to keep a higher water level.
<Really should not matter with
this box.>
I'm not really sure though because I think that if I bump
up the return gph then it will become louder in the drain line but might
reduce the sucking noise in the overflow box.
<Again, it does sound
like siphoning is occurring somewhere in the line. This will make it
loud throughout the system.>
So much to think about.. I also have the
ability to add 2 more 1/2" returns if the problem is that there isn't
enough return flow but your site suggests the opposite.
<The flow in
and out are fine, there are other issues at play here.>
Any help
would be great.
<I do suspect that you have some “backup” along the
overflow line. This could cause a siphon and lead to your issues. It is
possible that this spot may need to be aspirated also. Please do call
Mike at Glass-Holes, 805-598-1706, he will help you sort out this issue
both with the lines and the box. Do write back to let everyone that may
read this know the outcome.>
Your website has been an invaluable
resource to this hobby.
<Thank you Paul.>
Thanks
Paul
<Welcome, talk soon, Scott V.>
Re: Noisy Plumbing 5/31/08
I just want to let you know I
resolved this issue. Everything is much quieter now.
<Great!>
I was able to move things around and make the drain lines straight
until they get to the floor.
<This can make a difference.>
I
added another line up because I was planning on doing that anyway. I
am closer to 700gph now. I then started
playing with the siphon
tube and things quieted right down. I was also able to keep a little
higher level in the overflow box as well. I think the configuration
of my drain lines were causing the most problems due to the 45's
being within 8" from the bulkhead.
<Likely so.>
It sounded
like that was where the noise was coming from and now that I
eliminated them everything is near silent. Thank You....
<Good to
hear, welcome and happy reefing, Scott V.>
Paul |
Noise Level and "Micro" Bubbles 4/29/08
Thanks for your
guidance in the past in setup.
<You’re welcome.>
I have two
questions about my still lifeless tank. I have a used Dutch AS 75 G
flat back hex tank which I restained and varnished, drilled for two
1.5 bulkheads in the top corners. 90 pounds of very cured Live Fiji
rock. I have installed it with two overflow PVC 1.5 pipes running
from L’s at the bulkhead. Each L has a 1/4 inch John Guest Air valve
to allow air suction into the 90s and prevent "burping".
<Is the
airline run down into the drain line?>
The pipes run down to a 30
gallon 30X18X12 sump/refugium, which is turning out to be too tall.
One pipe goes directly to the 12 inch ASM G2 skimmer chamber (right
side of sump); one passes the 9 inch refugium (left side of sump)
with a teed 3/4 inch ball valve dropping a few gph into the fuge,
and then continues to the skimmer chamber. Middle chamber is a 6
inch pump chamber housing an OR6500 pump. Bubble trap baffles
between the skimmer and the pump chamber, although I made these too
narrow and may be promoting too rapid flow.
<This can be a
problem with not enough dwell time through the baffles to allow the
bubbles to escape. Foam between two of the baffles can make a huge
difference.>
Exhaust enters the sump below the waterline from
the 2 1.5 drain lines but is dropping a lot of bubbles.
<They
will, this needs to be managed.>
Some appear to be making it past
the trap and back into the tank. I did not build a bubble chamber
for the skimmer section, and I have not employed socks, because the
sump is so tall I would have a hard time accessing/changing them,
and would turn them into nitrate sources.
<This too can be a big
help for you. You will need either a filter sock (even if it is a
pain to change) or to fabricate something your drains can dump into
forcing the water and air to come back up before transiting the rest
of the sump. I used to have my overflow dump into a 1 liter bottle
with the top cut off for this purpose!>
OR6500 pumps 1.25 line
out through 6 inches of flex, threaded connection, union, ball
valve, 2 45s, 3 foot rise, tees at the top of the tank into two 1s
and drops water into the tank about an inch below the surface. Both
sides are blasting microbubbles.
<Frustrating.>
In order to
reduce bubbles I have tried vaselining pressure-side joints to check
for any venturi above the sump waterline and found none. I have
damped flow down from the refugium and seen minimal impact. I
suspect the problem is with the volume speed through the baffles.
<It is sounding that way.>
So much for background:
1) Short of
reengineering my sump, which may be inevitable, what other
suggestions can you offer to reduce bubbles ?2) I have not seen much
foam or skimmate in my ASM. I only have a few hermits and snails
aside from the LR so there is not much to skim. Is it true that
fresh salt water takes some time to "ripen" and reduce surface
tension and that the skimmer and bubbles will improve over time?
<Yes, more of the components in the tank being new with
manufacturing residues floating about.>
3) I don't have overflow
boxes, just two 90s acting as drains which are currently level with
the waterline. They are loud. Is there any trick to minimize their
noise level?
<First, be sure the open end of the elbow is
pointing down into the water. This will keep the inside of the line
from being exposed to the atmosphere and your ears. Next you may
need to experiment a bit with the air inlets on the elbows. John
Guest fittings are nice, but you will need to be able to run the
airline down into the elbow a bit. How far down for your case it the
experimental part, you will need to play with this distance until
the overflow is quiet. Generally 4” down in from the top of the
elbow will get you fairly close for this amount of flow. Your drains
are sized well for this pump, you can get these quiet.>
Thanks,
as always, John.
<Welcome John. You have a bit of playing to do,
but this flow can be managed through a sump this size. It is just
all about directing it, making the bubbles work around obstacles to
get into the return pump. Keep with it, good luck, Scott V.>
Re: Noise Level and "Micro" Bubbles 5/6/08
Thanks for your
guidance in the past in setup.
<You're welcome.>
I have two
questions about my still lifeless tank. I have a used Dutch AS 75 G
flat back hex tank which I restained and varnished, drilled for two
1.5 bulkheads in the top corners. 90 pounds of very cured Live Fiji
rock. I have installed it with two overflow PVC 1.5 pipes running
from L's at the bulkhead. Each L has a 1/4 inch John Guest Air valve
to allow air suction into the 90s and prevent "burping".
<Is the
airline run down into the drain line?>
{no, just a gate valve on
the ell. I will extend the line down into the pipe 4 inches}
<<This will make a big difference.>>
The pipes run down to a 30
gallon 30X18X12 sump/refugium, which is turning out to be too tall.
One pipe goes directly to the 12 inch ASM G2 skimmer chamber (right
side of sump); one passes the 9 inch refugium (left side of sump)
with a teed 3/4 inch ball valve dropping a few gph into the fuge,
and then continues to the skimmer chamber. Middle chamber is a 6
inch pump chamber housing an OR6500 pump. Bubble trap baffles
between the skimmer and the pump chamber, although I made these too
narrow and may be promoting too rapid flow.
<This can be a
problem with not enough dwell time through the baffles to allow the
bubbles to escape. Foam between two of the baffles can make a
difference.>
{Wouldn't foam slow flow further? }
<<No, it
will just serve the purpose to trap bubbles. Use the coarser filter
type foams.>>
Exhaust enters the sump below the waterline from
the 2 1.5 drain lines but is dropping a lot of bubbles.
<They
will, this needs to be managed.>
{OK..........}
Some appear to
be making it past the trap and back into the tank. I did not build a
bubble chamber for the skimmer section, and I have not employed
socks, because the sump is so tall I would have a hard time
accessing/changing them, and would turn them into nitrate sources.
<This too can be a big help for you. You will need either a filter
sock (even if it is a pain to change) or to fabricate something your
drains
can dump into forcing the water and air to come back up
before transiting the rest of the sump. I used to have my overflow
dump into a 1 liter bottle with the top cut off for this purpose!>
{My space is cramped with a gate valve modded G2 but I will see if I
can squeeze something in. }
<<Even a small cup that forces the
air back up before the water is allowed to flow through the sump can
have an impact.>>
OR6500 pumps 1.25 line out through 6 inches of
flex, threaded connection, union, ball valve, 2 45s, 3 foot rise,
tees at the top of the tank into two 1s and drops water into the
tank about an inch below the surface. Both sides are blasting
microbubbles.
<Frustrating.>
{Yup}
In order to reduce
bubbles I have tried vaselining pressure-side joints to check for
any venturi above the sump waterline and found none. I have damped
flow down from the refugium and seen minimal impact. I suspect the
problem is with the volume speed through the baffles.
<It is
sounding that way.>
{Yup.}
So much for background:
1) Short
of reengineering my sump, which may be inevitable, what other
suggestions can you offer to reduce bubbles ?2) I have not seen much
foam or skimmate in my ASM. I only have a few hermits and snails
aside from the LR so there is not much to skim. Is it true that
fresh salt water takes some time to "ripen" and reduce surface
tension and that the skimmer and bubbles will improve over time?
<Yes, more of the components in the tank being new with
manufacturing residues floating about.>
{Actually only the Sedra
is new. Everything else including the g2 body is used.}
<<Even
that can impact skimmer performance, or you just don’t have much to
skim as you mentioned. You’re water tests will tell you which.>>
3) I don't have overflow boxes, just two 90s acting as drains which
are currently level with the waterline. They are loud. Is there any
trick to minimize their noise level?
<First, be sure the open end
of the elbow is pointing down into the water. This will keep the
inside of the line from being exposed to the atmosphere and your
ears. >
{Are you saying facing the tank bottom? Thant would place
my overflows 8 inches below the waterline? Or are you simply saying
45 degrees from vertical like 10:30 and 1:30? }
<<However far you
need to rotate them so the open end is underwater. Without boxes you
may have to construct a little standpipe to get the desired water
level. Be creative!>>
<Next you may need to experiment a bit with
the air inlets on the elbows. John Guest fittings are nice, but you
will need to be able to run the airline down into the elbow a bit.
How far down for your case it the experimental part, you will need
to play with this distance until the overflow is quiet. Generally 4"
down in from the top of the elbow will get you fairly close for this
amount of flow. Your drains are sized well for this pump, you can
get these quiet.> Thanks, as always, John.
<Welcome John. You
have a bit of playing to do, but this flow can be managed through a
sump this size. It is just all about directing it, making the
bubbles work around obstacles to get into the return pump.
Keep
with it, good luck, Scott V.>
Thanks for your help.
{Thanks. I
will try these suggestions.}
<<Welcome, good luck, Scott V.>> |
Overflow... Not reef ready 4/29/08
I have a reef ready 90
with the built in overflow in the back. (older style?) I have a mag 9.5
return pump. The return goes from the sump to the bottom of the
standpipe, maybe 24" then up into the overflow box another 24".
<OK>
The problem is I am getting a lot of noise from the overflow, I hear
most of it from the top of the tank. The tank is equipped with the stock
standpipes. After Googling I found that the overflow is rated for
600gph,
<And in reality only flow 300 without issues.>
and the
mag 9 is 800gph @ 48" head, so why would I still be getting the air
noise? Is there an adjustment I can make to make it more quiet?
<The
fact of the matter is the 1” drain provided in these overflows cannot
handle nearly what the Mag 9.5 can pump back up to the tank. At the very
least this will be evident with the noise you are experiencing, at the
worst you will end up with water on the floor. By forcing the drain to
handle more than it can you will be forcing it to siphon somewhat,
creating the gurgling and flushing noises you are hearing. You will need
to put a ball valve on the output of the Mag and restrict the flow until
the noise subsides.>
Thanks in advance
<Welcome, good luck, Scott
V.>
Please Help! At My Wits End Trying to Solve This Problem... (Another
Overwhelmed “Mega” Overflow?) – 03/03/08
I have a 150 gallon
glass aquarium with Megaflow Overflow system, Euro-Reef skimmer with
Sedra pump, and 2 Mag-Drive pumps (950 gph).
<<…! Is this for
each!? I’m guessing this “Megaflow” system (can you hear the sarcasm
in my voice [grin]), consists of a single 1” drain, yes?
Realistically, this would limit you to about 300gph en toto for the
return pump(s)…after headloss>>
The system is 5 years old. The
pumps are all originals but well cleaned and cared for. I can
honestly say the system has been virtually silent since I purchased
a Euro-Reef Isopad soon after system was set up 5 years ago.
<<Ah, yes…isolating pump vibration can make a remarkable
difference>>
About a week ago a major change occurred. I came
home to very loud rushing water noise (like toilet flushing
constantly).
<<Mmm, a siphon surge…generally means you are
pushing more water to the tank than the overflows/drains can safely
handle>>
The pumps and skimmer appeared to be working well with
no apparent air leaks. The drain pipe/return pipe appears tight in
bulkhead and in correct position. No matter what I do to try to
quiet the system nothing works. When I turned the system off I heard
an extreme high whining noise (like something was stuck in line).
<<Hmmm…or maybe sucking/pushing are through a very small leak
(pinhole)>>
I continued to turn the system on and off until I
could no longer hear the whine.
<<…?>>
The system is not hard
plumbed and usually I can "burp" the air out easily by moving the
flexible down lines a couple of times.
<<Mmm, better to aspirate
these if this is a continual problem. This involves inserting a
length of small-diameter tubing down the overflow pipe to allow air
to escape when the system is “running.” Determining the best
length/diameter for the tubing usually requires a bit of
trial-and-error>>
This has no effect on the noise now.
<<Agreed…not a panacea>>
The noise (rushing water and air) seems
to originate along the lines draining into sump or up in the
aquarium, not in the sump.
<<Indeed…a result of too much flow>>
Adjusting the water level using the air intake elbow has not been
successful. The drain pipe and return pipes seem to be firmly in
place in the bulkheads. I know of nothing that could have been
sucked into the system. I did have a problem with overgrowth of
sponges over my live rock etc when I was feeding my puffer mussels
daily. The sponges were evident and growing out of the overflow. I
fear that somehow they are constricting my lines internally? Is this
possible, how do I eradicate?
<<This is possible…and would
explain the change in the systems’ performance…Replacing the drain
pipe/tubing is an option, but I think you have other issues here as
well. This problem is almost certainly an issue with “too much water
volume” being pushed down the drain line. Frankly, with the return
pumps you list, I’m amazed you haven’t had a serious flood before
now. Those Mag-Drive pumps must be working against some serious head
pressures. Even so, it sounds like your drain has been operating in
a dangerous “siphon” mode where the slightest obstruction; in this
case possible buildup of organic matter, can cause serious problems.
I think you were lucky this time in that the drain was able to
“surge” and keep up with the flow, albeit in a very noisy/annoying
manner, and didn’t just back water up all over your floor>>
I am
at a loss as to what do next.
<<If you don’t have gate-valves
plumbed on the return side of the pumps (recommended), try turning
off one of the return pumps to reduce the return flow and see what
happens. As stated, with the 1” drain line you should shoot for a
flow-/drain-rate of no more than 300gph. And obviously, come up with
alternative methods for producing necessary “water movement” within
the display>>
Thank you for your assistance.
Leslie
<<Give
the flow reduction a try, Leslie…and write back to discuss further
if you wish. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Follow Up Note On My Email To You on 3/3/08 (Sys.
Plumbing/Bristleworms/Puffer) – 03-15-08
I wanted to thank
Eric Russell for his assistance on 3/3/08.
<<Eric here…you are
quite welcome, Leslie>>
I was so frustrated that I was ready to
give my fish away (or worse) and close down the system!
<<I do
recall>>
He gave me the support and guidance to get through a
really miserable few days until my aquarium was fully functioning
again and my 4 charges were alive and well. (This includes my
original 5+ year old dogface puffer, 5 year old Foxface, 4 year old
Picasso trigger and 3.5 year old hippo tang.)
<<Is rewarding to
know>>
Thank you, thank you Eric, as I thought my puffer was a
goner , not eating for 4 days.
<<Most welcome again, my friend>>
You guys and gals probably do know what a wonderful service you
provide and you are so appreciated in 911 situations.
<<It truly
is our wish for you/the hobby to succeed…thank you for the kind
words>>
I had written because my 150 gallon all glass aquarium
with MegaFlows had started gurgling and siphoning. The system is 5+
years old and usually quiet. The noise was a very sudden change and
no matter what I tried nothing worked. With Eric's advice I tried to
aspirate the air. Did not work, if anything noise, gurgling just
became worse.
<<It can take quite a bit of fiddling to find the
right combination of tubing diameter and insertion length…but
still…is no panacea>>
Eric confirmed my fear that it was possible
that my drains ( 2 drains, each 1"diameter ) could be plugged from
organic matter. (Ii fed my puffer daily mussels to keep his beak in
check).
<<Indeed…many cryptic organisms find this environment
agreeable to them>>
Eric suggested I might need new lines.
<<Is often the simplest approach to this issue>>
I also suspected
my Euro-Reef skimmer might be at fault for the extra air being
pulled into the system. It still produced good skimmate amounts but
was getting more and more difficult to start pump. At times required
pump to be disconnected from skimmer and tilted around before it
would start.
<<Ah, yes…I very recently had to replace all three
Sedra pumps on my own ER skimmer (made the switch/upgrade to the
ER-modded Eheim pumps)>>
Anyway, due to undergoing treatment for
a medical condition, I am quite weak right now, and had to hire my
local LFS to come to my home. They determined there was nothing
wrong with skimmer function (wrong) and thought the flow was just
fine, did not agree noise was anything but normal.
<<Disappointing to know>>
I insisted they break system down and
evaluate.
<<Excellent>>
This took them over 2 hours (at $85.00
an hour,
<<Yikes! Maybe I am in the wrong biz… [grin}>>
I know
MD's that are less expensive, but who's going to argue at this
point.
<<Actually, from what I’ve read I think that fee is about
“median’ and not unreasonable. Regardless…you should still expect
them to know what they are doing/provide quality service>>
The
Mag 9.5 pumps were fine, but the drain lines were at least 50%
clogged with fibrous tissues (sponges?)
<<Quite likely>>
but
worse, thousands of bristle worms.
<<Not the monsters many folks
think them to be. Can be/are quite beneficial detritivores…although
extremely high population densities can be an indicator of excess
organic material (overfeeding)>>
Unfortunately, when the drain
lines were reinstalled and the system started up hundreds of baby
and not so baby bristle worms were blown into my aquarium. This was
so upsetting as I keep a meticulous aquarium (at least the parts I
can see).
<<Relax my friend, no reason to be upset at this point.
Back off a bit on the feedings and the worm population should adjust
accordingly>>
I do every other day 8-gallon water changes and
visually the aquarium looks pristine.
<<Ah, but as you are
learning…much going on/present that isn’t always “visible” to the
naked eye>>
My puffer requires this and I think this is why he
has lived so long. But I am side tracking, sorry...
<<No
worries…all pertinent/worth sharing>>
Anyway, when the LFS left
my home I was left with a sump full of bristle worms. Most were
about an eighth of an inch long but there were many big ones, 1-2
inches in size.
<<Mmm…have seen much bigger, and are of little
concern as stated. Think about it, these worms have been in your
system for years…you didn’t have any problems re, or even think
about them when you didn’t “see” them>>
Also 2 big piles of worms
(I mean about 2 inches high) were deposited in the aquarium. My
trigger was going crazy but even he wasn't hungry enough to clear
them. As it was about 8 pm and dark by now I quickly did a 20 gallon
water change and collapsed into bed. Next Am I moved live rock from
1/4th of aquarium and of course there were piles of the worms under
it. I still need to continue my quest and break down the other
3/4ths of aquarium and vacuum up what I can).
<<You can do this
if you wish…but is not necessary in my opinion>>
Any thoughts on
how to rid the strangers?
<<You really don’t want to be “rid” of
them….they serve a very useful purpose. But as implied earlier,
reducing excess foodstuffs in the tank will limit the population>>
I don't want them growing inches long.
<<Too late [grin]…but no
reason to panic>>
I will not overfeed aquarium but at this point
I want them out!
<<These organisms are a necessary and useful
component of a “balanced” system>>
I agitated the sump water in
the skimmer and it picked up several hundred more from there. Then I
got really discouraged and just completely emptied the entire sump
and cleaned it all out of any water and worms. The doorbell rang
with my new Sedra 5000 pump for skimmer, it was perfect timing.
<<Indeed…a well functioning skimmer will also help with the excess
organic load, obviously>>
Even the fiber block that is in sump
after the floss/ carbon/ was filled with baby bristle worms. The
foam on the Euro-Reef skimmer full too. Now skimmer with new pump is
up and going, lines are clean, about 100 gallons of water have been
changed in the last 3 days. Gurgling has stopped, no siphoning
anymore either.
<<Yay!>>
Now I have one question. How do I
prevent this from occurring again in 3-4 years?
<<Hmm…it’s not
likely it can be “prevented”…but reducing dissolved organics in the
water that feed the sponges will slow down their growth/expansion.
Also…reducing flow rates a bit (i.e. – not maximizing/overwhelming
the drain’s capacity) will allow a bit of “wiggle room” for such
growths>>
I don't want to feed my puffer any more mussels after
seeing this residue,
<<Oh…don’t stop altogether…just be more
judicious re>>
also I think the sponges really picked up growth
when I started putting Selcon on food about 9 months ago.
<<Mmm,
yes…while quite beneficial, it has been my experience that use of
this and other such food boosters requires careful use as they can
be abused. I do recommend you keep using the Selcon…but keep its use
to no more than once or twice a week as a food soak>>
What do I
do to keep his beak from growing so fast?
<<As stated…don’t
“completely stop” feeding shellfish to the puffer, but rather cut
back a bit maybe (as well as other foods/potential
over-feedings)…and do also add some chemical filtration
(carbon/Poly-Filter) to your system>>
He only occasionally takes
bites out of the coralline live rock. I was trying to think of a way
I could attach his favorite big hard algae wafer to a mussel shell.
That way he would still bite hard against the shell and keep beak in
check.
<<Keep feeding what the fishes need/require…and “step-up”
the filtration/husbandry to cope re>>
The LFS said that puffers
don't live long when they are at the size of mine but I just don't
believe that.
<<…?! And they based that statement on…? Seems a
ridiculous thing to say, to me>>
He has done wonderfully and
never has had a disease.
<<Testament to your good care and a
proper diet, no doubt>>
What is the oldest age you know for a
captive dogface?
<<Have heard this can be more than a decade>>
Well, that is the end of my tale. I write to say thank you but also
so others can learn from my bad experience and hopefully save some
agony.
<<Many thanks for sharing>>
Thank you Eric and all of
the team.
<<We are all pleased to assist>>
Oh, I did also have
valves added as recommended by Eric.
<<Excellent move!>>
Sincerely,
Leslie
<<Be chatting… Eric Russell>> |
Overflow Noise 2/13/08
I have a 1254 with 2
overflows and a drilled tank. It is drilled on the 2 back outside
corners and has 2 8" overflows made from glass. Each houses a Durso
1.5" overflow. These use a flex hose to return to sump and drop from
top of BS-2 Sump through sock filters. I have had a flushing issue
with the left hand overflow since filling. I have tried rerouting,
replumbing with 1" pvc.
<Is the bulkhead draining the overflow
1” and the Durso oversized to 1.5” for noise issues? If the bulkhead
itself is 1.5” I would start by replumbing with the larger pipe.>
No changes. One thing that I have noticed is that the right hand
overflow starts spilling over a second or 2 before the left, meaning
that
there is not as much flow from that side. Maybe tank is not
quite level.
<It is easy enough to check for level, and you
should. Remedy this problem if it is not.>
Question is would
slightly lower flow in one overflow cause this flushing effect?
<It sound like you have a few problems here. First, since the right
hand overflow is lower, it is having to flow more water than it
should before the left overflow kicks in. Running an overflow past
capacity is not only a recipe for disaster, but noisy while it
lasts. The other problem sounds like siphoning. Do you have an
aspirating tube in your Durso? This will let air in to break the
siphon that will occur, causing flushing followed by the water
coming over the top of the drains until the siphon starts back up,
draining it back down and flushing again. The third thing I would
check is your flow rate. With two 1” bulkheads I would limit the
flow to 600 gph safely. Any more will be noisy and end up with water
on the floor.>
Mike Callaghan
<I hope this helps, Scott V.>
Re: Overflow Noise 2/14/08
Thanks. The 1/8th inch airline
fixed flushing problem. Only problem now is uneven flow between 2
overflows. Maybe adjust the height of the overflow slightly on the
low one. Thanks again
Mike Callaghan
<Welcome, do check to
make sure the tank is level first. Good luck, Scott V.> |
AWFUL bulkhead gurgling.
Overflow Gurgling 2/11/08
Greetings gang!
<Wuf.>
I am
having an awful issue with gurgling. After a fun-filled weekend of
trying to get my 65 gallon tank drilled (read sarcasm in this), I
FINALLY got it done.
<It is what counts!>
I have 2-1" bulkheads
installed, with a Mag 7 in sump. The return line is "T'ed" off into 2
loc-line outputs. The new setup looks a TON better than the previous
clunky clear overflow box I was using, BUT I am having one last issue
with it (go figure).
<Growing pains.>
My drain lines gurgle. And
gurgle. And gurgle. No stopping it. And it's driving me NUTS. To be
honest, I can't even leave it running for the fear of angering my
neighbor. Yes, it's THAT loud.
<Is it gurgling or flushing?>
I
know the air getting sucked into the vortex going into the tube is
causing it, but I cannot get it to stop to save my life. I've shoved a
piece of airline tubing in it to try and 'break up' the vortex, but
obviously it didn't work (otherwise, I wouldn't be writing this!).
Any suggestions would be great. I would like to be able to sleep without
having to use ear muffs. :-(
-wuf
<Two things can cause
gurgling/flushing noises. First is if the intake of the drain is exposed
to the atmosphere. This will cause the noise of the water traveling
through the line itself to be heard. This is why you see the PVC elbows
pointing down on most overflows. The other is a siphon or partial siphon
in the drain line. This will cause all sorts of noises, some
sporadically. You will need to drill the PVC drain intake at the point
that it starts going down to your sump for the airline tubing (I would
actually get a bit larger tubing for this). Be sure to drill it to fit
fairly snug. From this point you will want to slide the tubing up and
down until you find a point at which it will eliminate this siphon
effect. Good Luck, Scott V.>
Re: New Tank…Pump Size/Plumbing Options – 01/03/08
Eric,
<<Jason>>
Thank you for your detailed response.
<<Quite welcome>>
It was very helpful.
<<Ah…good to know>>
In reference to item 4
below, I did mean to write that I was considering lining the tank stand
with some sort of sound proofing.
<<Oh!…very good then>>
In car
electronics, you can line the sheet metal behind the interior with
matting called Dynamat that helps reduce vibrations and blocks the sound
from going external.
<<Mmm, yes…have seen this used in aftermarket
speaker installations>>
Was just wondering if something like this has
been done in a fish tank and if so what kind of material would be used.
Thanks, Jason.
<<I’ve never seen it done, though I have heard
discussions re. An acoustical tile or even foam-board insulation might
do the trick…though you may find it’s more effective to simply locate
any offending pieces of gear and isolate/dampen vibration at the source
(as in placing a piece of “mousepad” under a vibrating pump). But do
feel free to give “sound-proofing the stand” a go, and let me/us know
how it works out. Regards, Eric Russell>>
Aqua C Remora, op./noise issue 12/15/2007
Hey guys, love
the site. I have a 26 gallon bow front FOWLR. I bought an Aqua C Remora
with the MaxiJet 1200 3 weeks ago because of the info I found on your
site. While it seems to be working well, about a half cup of gunk every
few days. My issue is with the noise, in the instructions it says the
noise and bubbles will decrease over time but has not. Being that the
tank is in my bedroom the noise can get quite annoying. Is there anyway
to decrease the noise?
<Mmm, possibly... by adjusting the flow,
mix... or possibly switching out the pump (if this is the source of most
the noise) for an Eheim hobby pump (MUCH quieter)...>
Or would it be
ok to put the unit on a timer, maybe 12 hours on 12 hours off. Would it
still be effective?
<Yes, might be the best idea here>
And would
it cut down the life of the pump?
<Not appreciably>
Thanks for
your help. -Joe
<Lastly, though it is not likely, this unit might be
defective. If in doubt, do call on Jason or Steve at Aqua-C... they are
both very customer service oriented... and fine young gentlemen as well.
Cheers, Bob Fenner> 90
gallon noise maker... quieting 11/21/07
Hey Bob and
friends! I've got a real quick two second question. I've searched the
forum and couldn't find a clear and simple answer. I'm moving and have
to put my 90 gallon salt FOWLR in the bedroom. I need a QUIET
-powerful-low budget-low maintenance filter. I have a 18'' snowflake,
orange toad, and a dogface. Needless to say, the water quality is less
than optimal. But nobody seems to mind. I feed the puffer daily and the
other guys twice a month. I currently have an old school hang
on-overflow- wet dry, a decent skimmer, and two power heads with about
60 lbs. LR. Not adding any more fish, just more rock. Can you recommend
a SUPER QUIET filter for my set up? My fiancée is already upset about it
being in the bedroom....please help! Thx, Adam B.
<Mmm, well, the
most quiet units will be "contained" (i.e. sealed, low-pressurized)...
My fave, the larger canisters... of SIZE from Eheim (I use these on my
FW set-ups... and have for decades)... Whisper quiet and very
dependable... BUT you will have to be careful re feeding fishes of these
types, in this volume, AND clean the mechanical (filter pads) parts
often... a pain at first, but not hard once it's routine... And the
Eheim's consume VERY little electricity for what they do. Alternatively,
you might consider building an insulated box of sorts to reduce the
ambient noise for what you have... Bob Fenner>
Limiting Pump Noise…Large External or Tunze Stream? – 09/26/07
Hello Crew!
<<Howdy Don!>>
I am in the middle of setting up a new
saltwater 210 AGA.
<<Sweet>>
I went out and bought a Via Aqua 8000
to use as the sump and buy another one for a closed-loop.
<<Mmm, have
you heard these pumps run? I find this brand of pump to be very noisy>>
It's an o.k. pump but a little noisy.
<<Indeed>>
I might be
expecting too much and pretty much have read all your articles on power
heads and pumps.
<<Okay>>
Do I go and buy either a Dolphin
7500/6500 for a closed-loop (or tell me what
pump is awesome at being
very quiet)
<<The Japanese-motored Iwaki’s, some of the Pan-World
pumps, and those from Gorman-Rupp Industries are a few examples that
will offer a good balance of quality and power vs. noise…but none are
truly “silent”>>
or scrap the closed-loop and stick about 4 Tunze in
the tank. I would love to run a closed-loop but much rather have a real
quiet tank running.
<<Then go with the Tunze Stream Pumps, mate. If
you can live with the look there’s absolutely no comparison re
efficiency and flow volume, with virtually no “noise”>>
Thank you for
your time.
Don V.
<<Happy to assist. Eric Russell>>
New Custom 120g...Wanting A “Quiet” 2400gph Turnover Rate! –
08/17/07
Wet web media crew,
<<Hello Matt>>
I have been
reading nonstop for a couple days (there is a staggering amount of
data on your website)
<<Indeed>>
and am trying to get the best
configuration. I know I want the 48” wide tank; most likely 24” x
24” for the other two dimensions.
<<A standard 120-gallon tank
then>>
The Lee Mar guys are the ones making the tank. The
standard 48x24x24 has one 2” drilled drain then two 1 ½” return
holes in the back center overflow.
<<Better than most...>>
I
do not think this is adequate so I must have them customize the
tank. (Any suggestions here would be great, I want to get it right
the first time instead of regretting a choice and be stuck with it.)
<<Mmm, well...I need to know what your “goals” are with this system
to be able to afford much help>>
I want to make sure that I have
a big enough drain that it will be quiet and able to easily handle
2400gph, then add a second one as a backup and to supplement
draining.
<<Ah, okay...then I would have “three more” of the 2”
drains installed. This will give you about 4800gph “maximum”
capacity. This is a bout half what some folks/most drain calculators
will tell you...but is a more practical number/expectation in my
opinion. Even though four 2” drains will make your goal of 2400gph
quieter/easier to plumb, processing this much flow through a sump
just below the display will be anything but “quiet”>>
I think
both drains could be in same overflow box.
<<If you are
considering a maximum of only two drains your goal of 2400gph of
quiet flow “may” still be attainable, but will require much
tweaking/tuning to achieve. Perhaps you should consider a
closed-loop to boost the water flow within the display and utilize a
much smaller “return” pump>>
If I have read correctly a 2”
bulkhead would be the appropriate size (making the drill holes ~3”).
<<Not in my opinion...as stated earlier, I would plan on about
1200gph per 2” drain>>
Would there be any advantage to drilling
the holes in the back glass (still in the overflow) instead, or in
addition to, the bottom glass?
<<This is my preference...if only
to limit the amount of water lost should a bulkhead fail>>
Are my
dimensions correct for drain sizes?
<<Do consider my statements
re>>
With drains this size, would a stand pipe, such as the
infamous Durso standpipe still be required to decrease noise.
<<Likely, yes...and would need to be constructed of pipe of the same
diameter as the drains to prevent loss of flow capacity>>
Not
sure about the whole closed-loop system.
<<Is the “better” option
here I think...or some Tunze Stream pumps>>
Given a big enough
sump, any problem with that much flow through a sump?
<<I think
you will be surprised at how much noise 2400gph of water volume
dumping in to a sump can make. Even if the sump is large (100+
gallons), it will be a challenge to quiet the noise and control the
turbulence/bubbles>>
Is there any disadvantage to having 3-4
extra holes (in each of the corners of the tank) in the bottom to
have available for return flow and cap any not in use?
<<Of
course (NOW is the time to drill these)...and I would not “cap”
these but rather utilize them without increasing the flow rate to
help reduce noise/plumbing issues. The more drains available...means
fewer gph per drain...means fewer hassles all around>>
I would
like to use as few powerheads as possible for adequate flow and
still be able to keep SPS.
<<Can be done, though I find the Tunze
Stream pumps to be very quiet, very efficient, very flexible in
their application, and quite worth the “intrusion”>>
I appreciate
your time and will be purchasing the tank in the next month. If you
have any suggestions or ideas for this tank, please feel free to add
any suggestions.
<<I suggest you chat with/seek other’s opinions
re pumping this much water through your sump...research other
options and base a decision on your own good judgment>>
Thank
you,
Matt
<<Happy to assist. EricR>>
Re: New Custom 120g...Wanting A Quiet 2400gph Turnover Rate! –
08/22/07
Eric or other expert,
<<Just Eric here…>>
I
have revised my plan to incorporate the response from Eric into my
tank. Attached is a schematic of the tank-in-progress.
<<I see
it>>
Would it be better to 'T' the two corner holes for the
intake of the closed-loop then 'T' the two middle of the tank
returns for the return then just use one bigger pump?
<<With the
configuration shown (if I understand/interpret it correctly) I think
you will have better control/efficiency utilizing a separate pump
for each as you show. Though I suggest you swap the ball-valves for
“gate-valves” (more control/finesse), and move them to the “output”
side of the pumps (you don’t want to “starve” the input side of the
pump)…and I would even consider up-sizing the pumps to a Mag-9.5 to
allow for future loss of flow as the bio-film builds up in the
inside of the plumbing>>
The current plan is to use a 30-40
gallon sump with a Mag 18 return, theoretically giving around 1200
gph through the sump.
<<If utilizing the two 2” drains in the
diagram to feed the sump…excellent>>
The refugium will be a
separate 20 gallon tank that utilizes a powerhead to get water into
the refugium and is gravity fed back into the sump.
<<This will
work fine…though you could add a tee off one of the drains to feed
the refugium as an alternative (regulated with a valve)>>
Do you
see any obvious, or not so obvious, problems to this design?
<<Not thus far>>
What is your opinion of the devices that rotate
flow between returns (i.e. Ocean Motion)?
<<I haven’t used these
myself but have a friend in the trade who uses them extensively with
his customer installations. The devices seem to be well made and he
“swears by them.” I think they are worth your further investigation
if you are interested in regulating flow thus>>
Thank you for
your continued assistance.
Matt Jenkins
<<Always happy to
help. Eric Russell>> | 
|
Plumbing/Water Noise Hassles...Big Drains With Lower-Than-Maximum Flow
Rates Are Key – 08/08/07
Hello Eric,
<<Hello Faisal>>
Hope
you are fine.
<<Yes my friend, thank you...and I must share with
you...temperature is expected to reach 104F here today with heat indexes
exceeding 110F! Not the 122F you’re experiencing, but still...ugh!
[grin]>>
I have a question about the size of the Durso standpipe.
<<Okay>>
If you still remember that I have an upstream refugium (100"
x 20" x 20" / 164G) with 7" DSB & Chaetomorpha.
<<I do recall, yes>>
The main tank (100" x 32" x 28" / 370G) will have 2 overflow boxes. I
was planning to have two 2" Durso standpipes & two 1.5" returns but I
have been told that these sizes/flow rates would be hard to keep quiet.
<<If you “max-out” the flow capacity of the 2” drains then I would
agree. But if you utilize a pump that gives you about 1200gph-1500gph
after head loss you might find this configuration to work/be quite
“manageable”>>
On the other hand, I have been advised to use two 1.5"
Durso standpipes & two 1" returns but then, through readings, I
understood that these won't be enough.
<Depends on what you are
“after” I suppose. This configuration could also work, though you would
probably want to limit this flow to 1000gph-1200gph en toto for the two
drains>>
I know that the turnover between sump & display is not as
important as the in-tank turnover. I am planning to have a closed-loop
circulation & I already have 2 Tunze Stream (3170g/h each) & 2 Tunze
Turbelle Electronic (1270g/h each) on a Tunze Multi-Controller. Also,
you have advised me to have around 600 g/h through the upstream refugium
down to the tank. So with all these inputs what Durso standpipe size
should I use. Note that the tank will be SPS dominated tank (I hope) and
an in-wall design (regarding noise from the Durso standpipes).
<<Either configuration you have described will work... Considering you
are providing sufficient water flow by other means, “I” would likely go
with the 1.5” standpipes/bulkheads to allow using smaller overflow boxes
and keep the flow from the sump to the tank to around 1200gph (after
head loss) to ease noise/plumbing hassles>>
As always, your insights
will be appreciated.
Thank you & regards,
Faisal Abbas
<<Always
a pleasure to assist...stay cool! Eric Russell>>
Noisy Eheim Pro 2028 7/8/07
Hi
I have purchased a
2nd hand [had been used for 6 months] Eheim 2028.
<A very good
product in my estimation:
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=EH2028K>
It
works perfectly but seems as if air may be present as it ‘rattles’ when
the taps are fully open. If I partially close the taps the noise stops.
Is this normal?
<No>
If not how can I dispel any remaining air?
<Mmm, a few ways, but the most assured is likely to turn the power off,
disconnect the discharge line, and have it lowered into a bucket, allow
the water to drain/siphon through the unit... perhaps while giving the
filter itself a few gentle shakes side-to-side to dislodge any air
caught in the pump... If you can get a friend to help, watch the
lines/water, try turning the pump motor on/off a couple times during
this process...>
Thanks
Alan
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Hang-On Overflow Noise (Water Volume vs. Pipe Diameter) – 05/14/07
I just upgraded my 29 gal reef to a CPR100 overflow and draining into a
10 gal sump. I decided to hard pipe the overflow in with 3/4pvc and two
elbows. No matter how I position the straight down tube into the sump
sock I get the constant sucking and releasing sound in the box.
<<You are likely trying to push too much water through the
overflow. The 1” bulkhead that comes with the overflow will only handle
about 300gph (yeah, I know they are rated for more flow...just not
practical), by reducing the output diameter to ¾” as you have done with
the PVC pipe you have reduced the flow capacity even more to about
150gph or so...which is more than enough, by the way, for this tank/sump
combination in my opinion>>
Will the Durso pipe solve this problem
of noise?
<<I have seen what looks like a modified/compact version
of the “Stockman” standpipe for hang-on overflow boxes (see here: http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/74.asp),
but whether or not it will help is probably a matter of trial and
error. It may help smooth flow a bit but if you are getting a surge
effect as you describe you will probably have to back off on the pump
output from the sump (easily accomplished with a gate-valve plumbed
in-line after the pump)>>
Even if I put the sump pipe under water it
still makes and ton of noise and I am really trying to understand this
problem. I want the tank to run with the least amount of noise as
possible and the splashing in the sump will be easy to fix if I can get
the overflow to stop sucking and making gurgling noises. Any other
suggestions?
Thanks.
Will
<<Definitely sounds like a case of
too much water volume coupled with a too small throughput diameter to
me. Regards, EricR>> Re: Hang-On Overflow Noise (Water Volume
vs. Pipe Diameter) – 05/15/07
Question regarding the 3/4 PVC.
<<Ok>>
I am trying to get some clarification on what sizes I have
used.
<<...?>>
The 1'' bulkhead accepts a schedule-40 3/4''
connection piece and then goes to 1" elbow.
<<Mmm, no...the 1”
bulkhead will utilize 1” pipe/fittings...a 1” ell will require 1”
pipe. If you have used ¾” pipe then you either have ¾” fittings and
bulkhead, or you have use 1” to ¾” reducer fittings>>
I noticed that
the 1" PVC pipe is the same size as ¾” fittings.
<<The outside
diameter of 1” PVC pipe is very close to the outside diameter of a ¾”
PVC fitting, yes...but in no way are the two compatible without the
proper reducer fittings>>
Why is this.
<<The ¾” fitting must be
large enough to fit around the outside diameter of the ¾” pipe...and a
1” fitting for 1” PVC pipe is noticeably larger by comparison>>
Basically I am saying that 1" pipe fits in 1'" bulkheads but the 1" is
really ¾” in order to fit in that space.
<<No...>>
This is
confusing to me and makes me wonder what size I hard piped mine in
with. Please advise.
<<If you used “all” 1” PVC fittings and pipe
then figure your flow based on a 1” diameter drain...if you used
¾” pipe or fittings (even just one) in combination with the 1” PVC pipe
and fittings, then figure your flow based on a ¾” diameter drain>>
Also my Mag 5 with head pumps about 300 gal/hr and I was wondering if
the gate-valve would be alright to use to restrict flow from the pump?
<<Absolutely...the way these magnetic pumps are designed/work makes them
very compatible for use with a gate-valve for tempering flow>>
Thanks for your help.
Will
<<Happy to share. Eric Russell>>
Excessive Noise From My Tank Plumbing – 02/28/07
Hello,
<<Howdy Todd>>
I’ve been reading a lot on the plumbing noise on your
website. I have a 225-gallon 72x24x30 tall with two overflow boxes 1 on
each side of the tank, each overflow has 1-1'' drain and 1-3/4'' return.
<<Ok>>
I’m using Durso pipes 1 1/4". I have a Mag 9.5 and a Mag
1800.
<<For return pumps?...this is more flow than two 1” overflows
can handle...>>
The 1800 is pumped from one side of the tank to the
other, that’s why it’s bigger to make up for the travel; the 9.5 return
is pretty much straight up.
<<Even so, a 1” overflow will take about
600 gph of “gravity” flow under ideal conditions (most folks find it
easier to limit this to about half the max “posted” rate). Either you
have these pumps greatly restricted (head pressure), or the overflows
are larger than you think/stated, I suspect>>
Wondering is there is
anything I can do about that ever so common that I’ve been reading about
loud water-flow noise through the pipes and into the sump?
<<Did you
plumb gate-valves (recommended) on the output side of the pumps? If so,
try closing these a bit until the noise abates and see what kind of flow
you have>>
I’ve tried the aspirating thing, putting an air tube
through the top of the Durso cap down the pipe any where from the top to
the bottom of the overflow and that really didn’t help at all.
<<Mmm, yes...is only a piece to the puzzle...and never a panacea on its
own>>
Does the air line need to go farther down into the drain
pipes?
<<Hard to say as each installation is unique. I can only
stress this does take some experimentation, with both the tubing length
AND tubing diameter...perhaps a larger diameter tubing will make more
difference>>
I’ve tried 1" and 1 1/2" PVC pipe from the bulkhead at
the bottom of the Durso pipe to the sump and both are loud. Most of the
drain pipe is vertical and horizontal, would it make a big difference if
it all was a little bit sloped?
<<As in replacing 90-degree ells
with 45-degree ells?...possibly>>
I replaced the PVC with rubber
hose and that did help quite a bit but still a little noisy and the hose
wants to kink, is there some good non-kinkable hose out there anywhere?
<<Look for some flexible PVC, commonly referred to as spa-flex and found
at pool/spa retailers as well as Lowe’s and Home Depot>>
And the
fact I don’t feel safe from leaks like I do with PVC.
<<The spa-flex
“is” PVC and uses the same fittings/gluing technique>>
I think it’s
quieter with the hose because it’s all smooth on the inside and the
bubbles and water aren’t hitting the edges of the PVC fittings.
<<Turbulence is a factor, yes>>
I’ve read a lot on you guys saying
to increase the bulkhead size to like 1 1/2" or 2".
<<Is preferable,
yes>>
I’d hate to re-drill cuz the tank is brand new, but if it
would help? I will do it?!!!
<<Increasing the size of the
throughputs would ease the plumbing noise/issues with the drains
(considering you keep the same return pumps), but you will likely still
have issues with noise in the sump from trying to process all that
flow>>
Would I use all the same size pipe to match the size of the
bulkheads?
<<Preferably, yes>>
What kind of hole-saw do I need
to buy for the 1/2" acrylic?
<<Any woodworking hole-saw will do,
though the “bi-metal” hole-saws work best in my experience. Drilling
acrylic is not rocket science, but if you decide to attempt
this...practice on a piece of scrap to get the hang of how fast/slow to
run the drill as well as practicing backing out the “running” drill to
let things cool every few minutes. The last thing you want to happen is
having the hole-saw “stick” in the hole because you got things too hot
and then stopped the drill in the hole>>
The noise is definitely
from the drain pipes and sump entry.
<<You can try placing 45- or
90-degree ells on the ends of the drain pipes and submerge these below
the water line...but I really think your problem is just too much
volume/flow for the drain size>>
By the top of the overflow where
the Durso pipe tops are it’s super silent and working perfect.
<<Ah...no suction/surge noise then...hmm>>
I want to get rid of the
water and air mixing crashing sound but I don’t want to get rid of my
Dursos!!
<<Indeed...though you may have to build larger standpipes
to fit the new fittings if you up-size the bulkheads>>
What do you
think I should do???
<<Honestly, I would use smaller return pumps
with plumbed gate-valves to control flow and look to alternative methods
for increasing water flow within the tank>>
I was going to have a
custom tank built of this size with 2-2" drains, but I got a pretty good
deal on this one.
<<Understood>>
I have learned so much from
your website already!! Thanks so much, you guys are great, you have
made things so much easier for me!!! But I’m stuck on a noisy one!!!
<<Happy you have found the site of use in the past...and no doubt this
issue too will come to pass>>
Thank you so much, Todd
<<A
pleasure to share. Eric Russell>>
Re: Excessive Noise From
My Tank Plumbing – 03/01/07
Hello again,
<<Cheers Todd>>
Thanks so much for your time Eric.
<<Quite welcome>>
Just a few
more questions for you.
<<Ok>>
If I set up separate flow for a
large amount of water movement inside my tanks with like closed-loop
systems (I have a 225-gallon FOWLR and a 120-gallon reef, both will
eventually be pretty heavily stocked), how many times should I be
turning these tanks over through their sumps (skimmer, charcoal, heater
and refugium)?
<<Some two to three times the tank volume per hour
should be fine>>
You don’t prefer a filter pad or sock in either
type of tank do you?
<<Not myself, no...though some folks do use
them with good result. Main thing to keep in mind re these items is to
keep spares and replace/clean them once (at least) or twice (better!)
each week>>
My last tank was a 55 gallon, I set it up with a valve
on the drain line and matched the flow of the return line, the 1" drain
had no riser pipe, I just set the drain and return water flows to equal
and the water level stayed at about the teeth.
<<Dangerous to put a
valve/restriction on the drain line in my opinion. An errant snail or
just the build-up of mulm/bio-film can cause a flood>>
I had a
separate safety drain with standpipe set at the top of tank so it
wouldn’t overflow, cuz the water would after awhile go up (start the
sucking noise) or go down ( the water crashing noise).
<<Indeed>>
Then Id’ take 5 minutes and set it again and it would last another 3 or
4 weeks. So it wasn’t as nice as the Durso but it wasn’t that big of a
pain. So is there enough gas/air exchange down in the sump with an open
top and skimmer, or maybe also an air stone?
<<No need for the air
stone (let’s not create any “micro-bubble” issues), the skimmer will
oxygenate the water just fine>>
Or the main display with an open
top, with water flow making surface movement?
<<This helps greatly
with gas exchange>>
Or do you need that air sucked through and/or
the 1" water fall over the teeth like with the Durso, for gas/air
exchange?
<<Not necessary, no>>
I like the Durso, it’s just so
loud with the air turbulence, with this set up no air was being pulled
through the drain (it was a super silent set up). I also only had like
5 small fish though also. Do you know if that Tenecor silencer that
sits on a stand pipe works just like the Durso, pulling lots of air down
the drain?
<<I’m not familiar with the Tenecor silencer...you might
do best asking about this on the message boards (RC, reefs.org)>>
Thanks again, Todd
<<Regards, EricR>> R2: Re: Excessive
Noise From My Tank Plumbing - 03/02/07
Hello again Eric,
<<Hey there Todd!>>
On my 225g I tried the flex pvc and it quieted
the drain quite a bit.
<<Ah yes...the thicker and more resilient
walls of the flex-PVC can make quite a difference...and being able to
make “gentle” turns doesn’t hurt either>>
Thanks!
<<I’m happy
you’re pleased>>
I tested my flow rate and my 1800 and 9.5 Mags and
they are only pumping 600 gallons an hour.
<<I figured something was
up...no-way two 1” returns were going to handle more than 2000 gph>>
The return lines are not anything special, just 3/4 pvc with 2
90-degrees to each overflow and 1 90-degree coming out of each overflow.
<<Hmm...is likely the ¾” return line causing the bulk of the head-loss
with these pumps>>
But that’s 2 to 3 times turnover rate, and like
you said that should do it.
<<Yes...and just to clarify for those
reading this...this particular “turnover rate” is in regards to how much
water is passing through the sump for filtration purposes and not to be
confused with overall water flow within the display tank>>
I’m going
to try those Tunze wavemakers for my water movement inside the tank,
they look like they work pretty well.
<<Indeed they do. I use the
Tunze Stream pumps for flow in my 375g reef...you won’t be
disappointed>>
For my FOWLR 225G do you think all I need is 2 of the
constant running powerheads like the 6060 or 6080, 1 on each side of the
tank, or would you go with one of the controller sets that turn them on
and off?
<<Either a pair of 6080s or a pair of 6100s w/controller
would be fine (though the “electronic” units give you much more
flexibility). I use a couple 6080s AND a pair of 6100s in my system>>
What about on my 120G reef?
<<A pair of 6060s or a pair of the
electronic 6000s would be a nice addition...in my opinion>>
Or what
do you think about that Tunze box wavemaker?
<<Big, obtrusive,
expensive, and very limited as to its placement in the system...but
those that use it do rave about it>>
It seems like it would work
pretty good too.
<<Your call mate>>
Thanks again for your time
and info Eric!
<<Happy to share Todd>>
Both my tanks are in wall
tanks, I just bought my first home a few months ago, so I’ve been
waiting to do these tanks forever!
<<Ah, very nice...mine too is an
in-wall system...love that look...>>
My 225G FOWLR is going to be
set in a black rock wall, like on a fireplace.
<<Very nice! I used
a fossilized reef rock (lots of gastropod and bi-valve shells) to face
the wall around my tank>>
And my reef tank is going to have a black
acrylic frame going around the tank.
<<Mmm, yes...gives a very
“finished” look to a tank when dressed this way>>
Can’t wait till I
get them done!!!
<<I’ll bet...but don’t rush it>>
I’ll send you
some photos when I get them finished.
<<Please do!>>
Thanks
again for the info, Todd
<<Quite welcome, EricR>> R3:
Excessive Noise from My Tank Plumbing - 03/02/07
Hello again
Eric,
<<Howdy Todd>>
Just curious but what do you use for your
375G reef filtration, what do you have for the turnover rate through
those components?
<<Mmm, okay... I have a 75g sump that is fed water
directly from the tank to the skimmer chamber; housing a Euro-Reef
CS12-3, by two 1" overflows with a third 1" overflow feeding a 55g
downstream vegetable refugium that empties to the pump chamber of the
sump. Two DIY hang-on chemical reactors in the sump hold Poly-Filter
and iron-based phosphate media. A Mag-12 return pump provides
circulation through the sump, passing first through a chiller located in
the crawlspace under the house, and thus providing about 800 gph of
quite manageable turnover to the sump. Ancillary flow in the tank is
provided via the Tunze Stream pumps as previously stated>>
Thanks
again for the info Eric; I'll leave you alone for awhile now.
<<No
worries mate...is why I am here>>
Take it easy, Todd
<<And to
you in kind, Eric Russell>> R4: Excessive Noise from My Tank
Plumbing - 03/04/07
Hello again Eric,
<<Hiya Todd>>
I
guess I have one more question for you now that I have read your last
email.
<<Ok>>
I see that you're getting 800 GPH from your Mag
12.
<<About...yes>>
I have a Mag 18 and 9.5 and am only getting
like only 600 GPH!! Hmmmm!!
<<Indeed...and tis why I noted earlier,
there must be some unusual head-loss due to your plumbing
configuration>>
I'm not doing something right here?
<<Something
seems to be amiss for sure>>
I'm still testing with a Tupperware
sump before a have my acrylic one built. So right now the sumps right
in the center below the tank, each pump is using 3/4 pvc, one union
after pump outlet, up 2 feet, a 90-degree, over 2 1/2 feet, a 90-degree,
up 5-inches to bulkhead, then up 30 inches to top of overflow, 90-degree
out of overflow, centered-tee split into 2 6-inch sections of
centered-tube with 3-inch flared nozzles on each end. Each pump is
plumbed separately to each one of the 2 overflows with the exact same
plumbing right now.
<<Mmm, well Todd, with the ells, tees, and run
lengths, I figure your restrictions equal "at least" 11-feet of
head-height on each pump...which "should" still give you about 1100gph
en toto (approximately 300gph from the Mag-Drive 9.5 and approximately
825gph from the Mag-Drive 18). But there's more at play here...I think
the reason you aren't realizing even this much flow is due to the 3/4"
piping. It has been my experience with this brand of pump that one can
get better flow volume by "upsizing" the pipe on the output side of the
pump (I use 1" flex-PVC for my return line). If you can, increase the
size of the throughput at the tank as well...but even if you don't, just
increasing the pipe diameter from the output of the pump will
help. Also, try reducing the number of 90-degree ells in your
plumbing. Either use two 45-degree fittings to replace a 90-degree
fitting...use "long-sweep" 90-degree ells (usually found in the
electrical section of Lowe's/HD...and are expensive), or use flex-PVC in
place of the hard pipe>>
And I do have one of those 3-inch long
strainer fittings on each of the pumps intake so nothing gets pulled in,
they're those small ones, not like some of the bigger ones that I've
seen in some of the photos of Mag-Drives.
<<Shouldn't be an issue
here...but neither are they necessary for a sump installation, in my
opinion>>
So it's not like I'm plumbing 20-feet with lots of 90's.
<<Oh, but it is my friend...all things considered>>
I'm going to try
the flex pvc on the returns to see if that helps.
<<Am sure it
will...especially if you get/put an adapter bushing on the pump and use
1" flex>>
The pumps are fairly new so they should be operating fine.
<<Yes...just working them too hard>>
How do you have yours
plumbed? Are you using bigger then 3/4" line? Flex pvc or tube?
<<1” Flex>>
Any kind of centered tubing entering the tank with
nozzles?
<<"Tee" fittings? …no>>
Or anything on your intake of
the pump?
<<No intake screens either...>>
I'm stumped and just
don’t get it!
<<Read over my replies...should start to make
sense. And give me a shout if you still have questions>>
Just
thought I'd get your input before I took the next trip to the hardware
store!
<<And now you have it>>
It took me about 10 trips to get
the drains the way I wanted!
<<Ha! I do understand...I made many a
trip as well when I did my own tank installation>>
I'll see if I can
do the return in 5! HaHa! Right now just one of my two overflows by
itself with 1- 1" bulkhead and its 1 1/4" Dursopipe will handle the Mag
18 and 9.5 (600GPH).
<<If a bit noisily, yes (isn't that how this
exchange began? [grin])>>
I surly thought I'd be getting much more
return then that, as I think I should be!!
<<Agreed>>
My wife
keeps making fun of me for checking my email so much after I ask you a
question.
<<Hee-hee!>>
It's like I'm a little kid waiting for
Christmas morning when I'm waiting for fish info! HaHa!
<<Well
then...I'm glad I can provide a bright spot to your day!>>
She keeps
on making fun of me saying "Oh I suppose you got to go see If the fish
guy emailed you yet?" You’re now the fish guy!
<<Could be worse
[grin]>>
I you have any pics of your 375G or other tanks you have,
I'd like to check them out if you wanted to send some pics, your 375G
sounds like a really cool setup!!
<<Thank you...but don't have
anything recent to share…though yours is not the first request
re…perhaps I should take/post some pictures for sharing with those
interested to see such. I did have some installation pics from a few
years back posted on the local marine club website, but that server
seems to be down>>
Thanks again for all your time and info; your
thoughts are greatly appreciated! Todd
<<It is my pleasure to
share. Eric Russell>>
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