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Tang compatibility Tangling With Tangs! (Tang Compatibility) 7/19/08 Hello, <Hi there! Scott F. in today!> I have a question on Tang compatibility I was hoping you could answer for me. <Will try!> I have searched the forums, but could find a question similar to mine. I have a 150 gallon reef setup which currently houses a 4 inch Desjardin Sailfin Tang, 1 Purple Firefish, and a Mandarin Dragonet. I have approximately 200lbs of live rock with plenty of crevices and hiding spots. In a system this size, would you recommend me adding a Yellow Tang? Or would it quarrel with the Sailfin since they are similar in body shape? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you, Kiet <Well, Kiet, I would tend to agree with your concerns here. Mixing two Zebrasoma species in a modest-sized aquarium could be potentially problematic. Your Desjardini will reach a very large size to boot, and will not be particularly happy to have another Tang introduced to the system, particularly if the Sailfin has been in the aquarium for some time. Much better to add a Tang species from the genus Ctenochaetus, such as the Kole Tang. It inhabits a different ecological niche than your Sailfin, and attains a much smaller size. Both of these attributes will create a greater probability for success, IMO. Best of luck to you! Regards, Scott F.> Re: Corals, Stocking, Bought the Tang - 6/11/08 Hi again! <Hello Allison> I bought a desjardinii tang today and thought it looked decent to me. <mm.. fish needs a bigger tank.> However, I posted a few pictures up at http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=323673 and a few users disagree with me. Apparently, my tang has HLLE!...Do you agree? <The beginning. This is an emaciated fish.> What should I do to help him recover? <Return him to the store, and research before making your next purchase. I don't intend to be a damper on your excitement for the hobby, but your fish will be healthier and enjoy greater longevity- and you will enjoy the hobby more- if you read up on disease, stocking, etc and choose fish that are of an appropriate size for your tank and which you know how to take care of.> Thanks! <Welcome. Best of luck.> Allison <Benjamin> Re: Tank temp spikes and affect on Sailfin Tang 6/1/08 Thanks for your help. Unfortunately, he didn't make it. I fear that he had some sort of tissue necrosis, as large chunks of tissue were just falling off on the head as well in the body, just beyond the skull. <Bizarre... more than one thing going on here> It got so bad that it seemed like I could see a portion of his skull. I will send some photos of the condition. All other fish are doing great. Out of curiosity, what size tank would you recommend for a fish like my tang? <A Zebrasoma desjardinii needs at least a couple of hundred gallons to "do well"... this species (distinct from Z. veliferum further in the west Indo-Pacific out to Hawaii) gets very large. Both to about a "standard length" (a fisheries measure... sans basically the tail/caudal fin... of 40 cm... Yes, 16 inches... small individuals can "live" for a few years in smaller volumes... but... not well in a longer term sense> I may or may not seek a replacement (of any kind) if it will get too crowded with my current livestock. <Do see fishbase.org re as well: http://fishbase.org/NomenClature/ScientificNameSearchList.php?crit1_fieldname=SYNONYMS. SynGenus&crit1_fieldtype=CHAR&crit1_operator=EQUAL&crit1_ value=zebrasoma&crit2_fieldname=SYNONYMS.SynSpecies&crit2_fieldtype=CHAR&crit2_ operator=contains&crit2_value=&group=summary&backstep=-2 Bob Fenner> Re: Tank temp spikes and affect on Sailfin Tang -
06/02/08 Thanks, Doc. I appreciate it and will likely go without a
replacement to give the other guys room in my tank. <Real good.
BobF>
Sailfin Tang - dying? 5/30/07 Hello - Appreciate your
informative site!! We have a 125 gallon reef tank, 1 Red Sea Sailfin
Tang about a year old, 1 Red Flame Hawkfish, 1 Coral Banded Shrimp, 1
long tentacle anemone (New) and some various polyps and mushrooms.
Param.s are as follows: PH 8.3 Amm = 0 Nitrites = 0 Nitrates = 0 Temp =
83 (bit high I think, but just put new MH Lights in) In the last couple
days my Tang has been acting a little strange, hanging out in one of
the corners and not really swimming around like normal. We moved the
powerheads around a bit but that didn't help. <May be just
simple low dissolved oxygen, elevated temperature at play here...>
When I woke up this morning, I thought he was dead. He was hanging'
upside behind one of the rocks. I went to net him out and he swam, head
down and upside down back over to the anemone. I left him alone and
came back to check on him and he was resting on the anemone. I nudged
him to see if he was alive and he got caught up in the current' -
trying to right himself as he was upside down and/or sideways. Also,
one of his eyes are cloudy. He is typically a very social fish! We did
a water change last week and rearranged some of the rocks, added the
anemone. <This may be a source of morbidity, mortality as well>
We had our old VHO ballast blow last weekend, so there was a day and
half with out lights and then we moved to a MH light system. This is a
well established tank and everything else seems to be doing just fine!
Any ideas, suggestions!? Thanks in advance!!! Jessica <Please read
here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fishindex3.htm Scroll down to the tray
on Tangs, particularly the articles, FAQs files on the genus Zebrasoma.
Bob Fenner> Desjardini Tang with pockmarks 5/23/07 Dear Sir: <John> I reviewed your FAQs but my situation seems to be different than HLLE, etc. My 3 year old Desjardini Tang has these white "divots" confined to the area around its eyes above and below. The eyes are clear and the fish is active, colors otherwise vibrant, is an eager eater and appears healthy. These divots have existed for approximately 1.5 years and may be getting slightly worse. <Mmm, this is almost certainly a form of "Neuromast destruction"... IS HLLE...> The diet is primarily Formula 2 and Nori and whatever meat it can steal (and it doesn't get much) from the trigger, lionfish, 2 wrasses and a moray eel that live with it in a 125 gallon tank (FOWLR). <This is way too much fish life for such a volume> I have about 40 ppm nitrates <And twice as much nitrate as they should be exposed to> with 0 nitrites and ammonia. I buffer pH to a constant 8.3. <Good> In case you think it related to my problem, because of all of the messy eaters I have in the tank, I religiously change approx. 20 - 30 % of water per week. <You need more space period, and likely more/better filtration> Do you have a theory as to what may be causing this problem with my tang and what do you recommend I do about it ? <Poor environment and nutrition... Improving them/these...> Thanks for your help. John <Posted... over and over... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm and the linked FAQs files above... Bob Fenner>
Mixing Tangs, lights for an LTA 8/29/05 I have a very small sailfin tang in my 55 gallon tank along with 2 perculas clowns, a bullet goby, and a cleaner shrimp. I want to know if I add a blue hippo tang would it fight with the sailfin because I would also like to add a yellow tang but I would much rather have the blue hippo. also is a 260watt light enough power for an LTA <... The Sailfin will grow too large for this tank... your compatibility and lighting questions are answered, archived on WWM... learn to/use the indices and/or Google search tool there. Bob Fenner> Indian Ocean v. Red Sea Sailfin III 11/11/03 In Calfo and Fenner's new book Reef Invertebrates they list Z. veliferum as a potential bubble algae control creature; did they mean to include all members thereof (including the Pacific or Hawaiian Sailfin) or is the Desjardin Sailfin the one commonly believed in aquaristics to be the right candidate? <as stated in the last e-mail, my friend... they are the same species (Desjardin/red sea Sailfin is simply a Z. veliferum) but anecdotally they are believed to be more inclined to rasp bubble algae: <<it is possible that a race of fishes (same species...different locale) is evolved or predisposed to eating some prey items over another. There is a strong belief in aquaristics that this is the case with the Red Sea Sailfin>> best regards, Anthony> Taken By A Tang! My email address has changed. Sorry about
the incorrect email address and thank you. <No problem> I have
done some more reading on your site today at work and think I have
found an interesting fish. The Sailfin Tang seems to have caught my
attention. <A beautiful fish- one of my all-time favorites-but they
get HUGE!> I also know that in 1 year or so I would need to upgrade
the tank <Yep- substantially!> but when that comes, I would do it
as before. Thanks for the wonderful web site and your valuable time
need to start charging lol. <Yep-I'm glad that you will plan on
upgrading to a larger tank with this guy- they are awesome fish- but
they demand a very large tank to live out their full life span in
comfort. You just have to be prepared for this if you want to keep this
fish! They make terrific aquarium species if you can meet their needs.
Plan, prepare- and make it so! Good luck! Scott F.>
What kind of fish can add to my tank???? I have a Desjardin tang, what other kind of tang can I add with him in a 90 gallon with a goatfish, and clowns. Is a Kole tang ok to add or a surgeon fish? <<Another Sailfin tang of the same genus (Zebrasoma) should go... maybe a Yellow... from Hawai'i... or an easygoing member of the Acanthurus genus or a Combtooth tang like the Kole (aka Yellow-eye, Ctenochaetus strigosus) that you mention... or even a Pacific Blue/Hippo/Palette Tang... I'd make sure the new one(s) were a couple of inches smaller than the Desjardin's... to lessen the chance of interspecies aggression (they are going to tussle, but don't fret unless you see signs of real damage or cowering). Bob Fenner, who will be adding more graphics to the Surgeonfish family survey article on www.wetwebmedia.com and, better still, making a 32 pg. booklet on the group... they deserve it.>> Sailfin Tang I have a 55 gallon tank with a Sailfin Tang, Naso, Yellow Tang, Foxface, and a Percula Clown. I keep my SG around 1.022. My PH runs around 8.2, Ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates around 5ppm,temp at 77, and calcium at 400. I add Lugol's iodine once a week, Strontium 2x week, There is about 35 pounds of live rock with various mushrooms growing, and a couple of feather dusters that have came out over the last few days. I vary there diet with frozen brine shrimp plus, flake foods, organic grown romaine lettuce, and SERA Tablets ( the stick on the glass ones.) Now that's the specifics on the tank and its inhabitants now on to the questions. My Sailfin has appeared to change colors. From black and yellowish stripes to an almost beige or tan color where they used to be black. Is this normal? Also this morning I saw him rubbing his head on the substrate (which by the way is aragonite) and I am wondering the best course of action. i.e. fresh water dip, medicated flakes etc. I know you gonna ream me out for this, but I don't have a quarantine tank setup to isolate the Sailfin. But all be it I'll have one soon...Also any other suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Brian... <<Hmmm, not so fast... the color changes you mention and the "scratching" behavior may well not be indicative of a parasitic or other diseased condition... They may be "natural"... I'd hold off on dipping, any other chemical manipulation till you actually see some physical manifestation on the fish itself. One thing I would do that will help, and has little potential downside is add a cleaner shrimp... one of the species of the genus Lysmata. Bob Fenner>> Pacific Sailfin Tang-- is this a problem? Hi Bob, I hate to be a pest, but I think I might have made a mistake? (or should I have said another mistake?) <To err...> Yesterday, I went out to get a Kole Tang, however when I got there the Kole in question was a little thin. They didn't recommend me buying it. (Very good LFS if you remember.) So I thought I'd look at some other Tangs that were in the Zebrasoma Family <genus>, as recommended. They had Yellow Tangs, Purple Tangs and a couple Sailfin Tangs. <A nice assortment> I want something a little different. And the purple Tangs were really expensive. So I've got a Sailfin Tang. I remember reading about them in your book, and I couldn't remember anything negative about them. <They get big...> When I got home are read some more. I was surprised to find out that they get to be 15 in. in the wild - probably means around half that in an aquarium, but still... you also didn't especially recommend them in your new book, giving them a two (not sure if that was because of how big they get or something else?) <That reason.> The strange thing about this is that it was one of the smaller Tangs there, <So was I... once.> Not counting the purple tangs, which were quite small. I think the Sailfin is about 3 1/2-4 inches or so, of course not counting all the fin. <And just a juvenile> So my question to you is this: Just how long his this fish quite to fit in my 40 gallon tank? (I don't think it's a juvenile as I've seen some pictures of them.) <Months...> Should I take it back or something radical like that? <Likely no... better to be thinking of, gearing up for a larger system in future> BTW, it appears to be healthy fish, getting used to the tank and ate some brine shrimp mixed with Spirulina. I also put some Nori in there for it. <They are very tough, adaptable> Thanks again for being there! --Jane <A pleasure my friend. Bob Fenner> Sailfin Tang, Help A.S.A.P **911** Hi Bob, Love your Website! <Thank you... what would you do different, add to the WWM site?> I need your expert advice in order to prevent my Sailfin Tang from perishing. This is the second time that I am asking for your help with this same fish. The first time you were great and right on the money with your advice and I hope you can do the same this time around. I have been watching him very carefully each day, and he still exhibits signs of parasitic infestation. His appetite is still very good and he has a slight case of HLLE, but the main concern is that he is still breathing very rapidly, which makes me believe that he has gill parasites. With the mis-fortune of not having my hospital tank up and running I have come the conclusion that I have only two options. The first option now is treat my main tank with CopperSafe and pray that it will take control of this parasite, or my second option is to take this Sailfin Tang out of the main tank and try a" freshwater dip". <The latter would be/is my choice for now... with a dilute formalin/malachite dip solution... look for the Kordon Corp. product here. And also Zoecon to add to the tank, food to help you with the HLLE... and live macro-algae as detailed on the WWM site> My only concern is the procedure in which this method is done. Please Bob, give me some advice. I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me the correct step by step instructions on this process. For instance: correct water conditions such as temp, ph, length of time the fish should be dipped, and also what to do after the fish is dipped. Please reply A.S.A.P if you would be so kind!!!!! <These are spelled out well enough on the dip/bath section in the marine index. Please read them, download there. Bob Fenner> Saltwater (Sailfin Tang) Disease Hi, Mr. Fenner I just had a few questions about why the tangs are so hard to keep healthy looking. My Sailfin Tang always seems to be breathing heavy and his lateral line also seems to be a little faded. What is the cause of all this? I give my fish a variety of foods like: brine shrimp, algae cubes, bloodworms, clam cubes, flake food, algae strips from seaweed select and I also add Vita-Chem to their food daily. I tested all the levels in the fish only aquarium and they all fall within the parameters. My tank size is 42gal.Hex. and I also have a Niger Trigger and a Snowflake EEL. If you will please E-mail me back ASAP with some advice. Thanks, Tom <Thank you for caring enough to investigate... These are not good signs as you know, but you may well have provided all the information here that is necessary to solve your systems problem. Yes, this is likely what can be termed an "environmental disease". That is the cause of the poor health manifestations listed (heavy breathing, HLLE) are due directly to unsatisfactory conditions in the living quarters. Please do read over the FAQ section associated with the term "environmental disease" posted on the site: www.wetwebmedia.com and consider the following: Increasing aeration/circulation (airstones, powerheads...) as of the fishes you list, the Tang is the one with the highest dissolved oxygen need. And to discount the likelihood that this may as well be a nutritional deficiency syndrome, do add liquid vitamins, and iodide (often called iodine in the trade) supplement to the fish's favored foods ahead of placing them in this system... Additionally, I would add some live rock to this system, some macro-algae to improve water quality and offer as food on a constant basis... and start saving for a larger system, as these fishes will need such within a year. Bob Fenner> Desjardini Tang Hi Bob. I recently purchased a Desjardini tang from Flying fish and I am very happy. He is healthy and eating several different frozen foods. However, the sheet of algae that came with my order is in the tank with him and a few other fish (coral beauty, six-line, Longnose hawk) and it remains untouched after twenty-four hours. I was just wondering if I should try another brand of seaweed or maybe some terrestrial greens instead. Do fish tend to ignore standing food in favor of food in the water column? Any suggestions? Thank, Brian Baker <<Their indifference is likely due to the twin influences of new livestock introduction and unfamiliarity with the food... Just give them time. Bob Fenner>> Sailfin Tang bites Cleaner Shrimp Hello Bob - After a few weeks of quarantine, I placed a 4" Sailfin Tang (Zebrasoma veliferum) in my main tank. I have noticed that when he swims by the cleaner shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis), he bites the antennae of the shrimp! Now the shrimp's antennae are all considerably shorter then they were a week ago. Any thoughts / ideas on why this is happening and how to prevent? Much appreciated. Andre <Hmm, well, sometimes Zebrasoma will chew on, chew up/consume shrimps of different sorts... and your shrimp will regenerate new antennae (if it's not eaten altogether) with the next molt... I would offer this tang something else to munch on... like some strips of Nori, other human-intended algae that you can get from the oriental food section... and live rock with macro-algae. Bob Fenner> Yummy tangs... Hey Lorenzo, Is this (Zebrasoma veliferum) the same species as Z. desjardinii
of the I.O., RS Bob: Looks like veliferum to me? Photo from the
Pacific? <Yes, also off the dry side of the Big Island> Z.
desjardinii of the Indian Ocean is a valid species close to
veliferum. <Ah, had read some accounts the latter was
considered a junior synonym now...> Different fin-ray counts as well
as some color differences. Aloha, Jack <Thank you for this Jack.
Will add to the Zebrasoma FAQs on our www.WetWebMedia.com site. Bob
Fenner><<Jack is Dr. John Randall, Bernice P. Bishop Museum.
RMF>> Pacific Sailfin Tang Dear Mr. Fenner: I currently have a 55 gallon tank with DSB and 50 pounds of LR. Has been up and running for 2 years with 0 problems. The only occupants are snails, emerald crabs, 2 cleaner shrimp and 2 false perculas and a few mushrooms. My parents neighbor is moving cross country and is getting rid of everything. I have no room for their big tank and the person taking the tank does not want this fish nor does the LFS. It's about 4 inches long right now but can you tell me how to take care of it and if it will be ok in my tank or find a better home? <This fish should be okay for now and into the foreseeable future... Might "have a problem" with new fishes once it becomes established in your 55, grows a bit. My coverage: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zebrasom.htm and the FAQs beyond on general husbandry issues. Bob Fenner> Our new fish (Zebrasoma over-concerns) Mr. Fenner, I took your advice and bought a Zebrasoma tang. It is a red sea Sailfin (Desjardinii, or something like that). He seems very mellow. He swims around all over and really doesn't appear to sleep, at least not like the hippo. When it's lights out the hippo lays literally) down in his favorite spot and sleeps!!! He picks on the rocks eating algae and we have tried to feed him Spirulina and other flake food as well as Mysis shrimp, but he didn't appear to eat. <Patience my friend... a few days time to rest, settle in...> We have seaweed selects on a lettuce clip in there and I saw him munching on a little. Is there something else we should try to feed him, or is what we are offering him fine, he is just new and still checking things out. My clowns are afraid of him, but my hippo is very curious about him. Hippo keeps trying to come and swim with the Sailfin, but then the hippo gets scared and runs away. Is this normal for both species. <Yes> Also, who will be the dominant one hippo is 5-6 inches) Sailfin 2 or so. Should we keep an eye on both or should they be just fine? Also, we gave him a PH adjusted FW bath last night for a few minutes, since the pet store dipped him in quick cure for over 5 minutes earlier in the day. We went a little easy on him. Is this tang a hardy fish? Thanks in advance for your answers to my questions. And if you have any other info you think would help me, I would appreciate it. <Time... Bob Fenner> Swimming Erratically First time writer to your column, been reading it for a while. I have a 60 gallon tank with a number of corals (elegance, bubble, colt, Shrooms, frogspawn, brains, leathers) with four types of tangs (Naso, Yellow, Regal Blue, and Desjardini), a Coral Beauty angel, and two black clownfish. Well, everyone is doing great with the exception of the Desjardini tang. Lately, he has been swimming erratically like his swim bladder is not functioning. He flaps his fins like crazy to keep his body from floating sideways to the top. Or, he swims at a straight down angle or in a looping fashion. His appearance and appetite are normal. Is this a documented condition and is there any thing that can be done to lessen the stress?? <<How long you had that Zebrasoma? Ever been treated by/with copper? Sometimes Sailfins just go this route... and no, not much/anything you can do (that I'm aware of). Bob Fenner>> Holes in Dorsal Fin I've got a 6" Sailfin tang in my display tank (125gal.) and he's been doing fine for the past 1 1/2 yrs. But recently (2-3 months) I've noticed that his large dorsal fin has holes in it. From the looks of it, it seems to be thinning. Any explanation or prevention of this? Also, I've got a 3" Kole tang in the hospital tank. The tank has about 2 ppm Cu2+ to control the nasties. The tang has been in the tank for almost two weeks and last week I noticed what appears to be a blister or abscess under his left pectoral fin. And in the last two days, it looks as if a second is forming on his right side near the base of the dorsal fin. Both have a somewhat circular shape so I don't think its lateral line erosion. I'm not sure if he's just scratched himself against a rock and the copper is affecting it or whether it's something else. Any ideas or suggestions? I was planning on introducing him into the display tank this weekend but now I might hold off. <<Hey Bri. Re: the first surgeon... very likely the "holiness" of the dorsal is a combination of mere growth/age and a less than satisfactory diet. Do you offer 'human-food' algae like Nori occasionally? Do so and dip it first in a vitamin and iodine solution. The Ctenochaetus tang (Kole) is definitely in trouble from the copper. Do remove the Cu++ or better still, move the fish. I'd take the big risk and plunk it into my best reef tank. I've stated such before, but this family and their close relatives (e.g. the Rabbitfishes, Siganidae, scats: Scatophagidae, Idols: Zanclidae) can't take much in the way of sustained, let's make that chronic (more than a few days) copper treatments... kills off needed alimentary microbes. Bob Fenner>> Sick RedSea Sailfin Quit Eating Hello again Mr. Fenner, I
wrote you recently about copepods & 2-fish in my quarantine tank-
(flame angel & red sea Sailfin tang). My red sea tang has suddenly
taken a turn for the worse & has quit eating, breathing rapidly
& "hovering" in the same lower left corner of the tank
all of the time. My nitrates were at 20 & ammonia was very low but
my ph lowered to 7.9, from 8.3. So I added a small amount of Kent 8.3
to the tank. <Over what period of time? A change of no more
than 0.1 of a pH point in twenty four hours is about maximum> This
behavior started later that evening (Sunday). Yesterday I did a 3 gal
water change and nothing has changed. Any suggestions??? <Hope...
increase aeration... I would likely take the chance and move this
specimen to your main tank> Today is the 29th day in quarantine.
<This is too long... in almost all cases two weeks will get you
about all you can hope to get... unless the specimens that are being
quarantined show definite "catching" characteristics I would
limit this protocol to fourteen days> I would also like your advice
in another one of your favorite arenas. We are trying to plan a
vacation to a spot where we can observe salt fish collection, diving
(snorkeling) and seeing tropical fish and reefs first hand. Wives would
be along also, so a nice hotel is a must. I live in Las Vegas, NV &
my brother lives in Newport beach, ca. Naturally, the closer, the
better. We will be traveling in late Sept. or Oct.. Mexico, Belize,
Florida ??? <All good choices... and would toss in
Hawai'i... generally there are calm-enough places, warm-enough
water that time of year for HI... Take a long look on the Net at all
possibilities, and chat these up with all parties... When you narrow
the locale down we'll chat. Bob Fenner> Thanx for your advice in
advance. Craig Help with tangs. Hello Sir! <Howdy> I just came across
your great web page today and I was hoping that you could provide some
insight for me. I'm very new to the saltwater game so I need some
help with something. Here is the breakdown so far. Currently I'm
running a 72 gallon bow front, with about 100 to 105 pounds of live
rock, a skimmer and Fluval 304 with 2 bio-wheels. In the tank I have 2
damsel (sp?)<yes> fish and one pretty big, and very beautiful
Sailfin tang from the red sea. This fish is wonderful!! So smart and
friendly, he even lets you kind of pet him. <Neat> Anyways, here
is my problem. This past weekend, I added a juv. emperor and a flame
angel. So far my Sailfin is really going after the emperor.
<Yes... these two occupy about the same niche in the Indian Ocean,
Red Sea... best to remove the Emperor... otherwise I can almost assure
you "signs" of stress and duress will soon occur...> We
have re-arranged the live rock and it did slow him down a bit but it
hasn't totally stopped it. The emperor is eating fine, but he's
not fighting back or anything. <If it is not much larger (which I
doubt) it will end up losing... If you asked me ahead of time I would
tell you that your chances of these two cohabitating in such a small
volume is tiny... need hundreds plus gallons...> Any ideas? I was
thinking about removing my Sailfin from the tank for a little while and
totally re-arrange everything in the tank. Maybe that will work?
<Perhaps, but I doubt it... would stick with the smaller
sub-dominant species, the Flame Angel... Please read over the partial
posting of the section of my latest book on the WWM site, "A
Fishwatcher's Guide... to the Fishes of the Red Sea... and consider
some other, more suitable species originating from there instead.>
If you could provide any insight that would be great. Thanks!! Jason
Karby <Talk with you soon. Bob Fenner>
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