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FAQs About Sump/Filters 10
Related FAQs: Sumps/Filters
1, Sumps 2, Sumps
3, Sumps 4, Sumps
5, Sumps 6,
Sumps 7, Sumps 8,
Sumps 9,
Rationale,
Design, Construction,
Sump Components,
Pumps/Circulation,
Maintenance,
Refugiums,
Plenums in Reef Filtration, Marine
System Plumbing, Holes & Drilling 1,
Durso Standpipes, Overflow Boxes,
Bubble Trouble,
Plumbing Noise, Make Up Water Systems,
Marine
Aquarium Set-Up, Live Rock, Live
Sand, Algal Filtration in
General, Mud Filtration 1,
Related Articles:
Pressure Locking Sump
Baffles; Welcome to the World of Versatility! By Joshua McMillen,
Refugiums, Marine
Filtration, Reef Filtration, Mechanical,
Physical, Marine
System Plumbing, Fish-Only
Marine Set-up, FOWLR/Fish
and Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems, Coldwater
Systems, Small Systems, Large
Systems, Refugiums,
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Decisions: I'm sumped. 3/1/08
Dear crew,
<Eric.>
I must admit I'm currently spending more time reading on your website than I
spend studying for my classes.
<Hmmm, the addiction.>
I have a 60 gallon (maybe 55?) saltwater tank set up. I picked it up because my
dad used to have it running and since all the equipment was free to start up I
figured it would be a good idea. Though, I quickly found out how quickly free
turned to a few hundred dollars. Well apparently my dad didn't know much about
freshwater vs. saltwater because I have an undergravel filter with two
powerheads and a canister filter (now devoid of media). I have 3 pieces of fake
coral that he had and then I purchased live rock (not sure on exact amount, but
more than 20 pounds). I use a 40 watt, 48 inch, 6500K Corallife full spectrum
fluorescent to light the tank. A little on the weak side, but for FOWLR, I hope
it's enough. Should I consider upgrading?
<It is not necessary. If the light looks good to you it is fine for a FOWLR
tank. The lighting is for your viewing pleasure.>
I am on a tight budget. The tank has been up and running for a few years. I had
a damsel, maroon clown, flame angel, and cleaner shrimp in it until I moved
apartments and the shrimp died.
<This happens to the best of us at times.>
Regrettably, I was severely lacking aquarium maintenance and my heater
malfunctioned and I noticed that my tank looked a lot less lively one day and
saw my temperature at around 90 degrees.
<Yikes!>
I turned off the heater, but I was pretty busy with school and left it there,
just topping off the water as it evaporated for a few months (I live in southern
California so the temperature rarely changes). Finally I decided I wanted to get
it back and running (they really are so beautiful) and I wanted to do it right
so I found your website. I'm now doing 5 gallon water changes every Monday,
along with cleaning up in various ways and running all the water tests.
<Good, keep it up.>
However, in the summer I will be moving again and I plan on using this
opportunity to revamp my tank. I will remove the undergravel filter and canister
filter and do a substrate change. I want to switch to sand because I like the
look better.
<Me too.>
I also am going to buy a protein skimmer. The LFS has AquaC, which seem to be
recommended. But before I buy the hang-on type, I want to know if it's
recommended to build a sump.
<It is a better and easier way of doing things, although not a necessity.>
The reason I am hesitant is that there are no holes drilled in my tank and I
don't know if I want to risk drilling because if it cracks, then that's the end
for me until I graduate. I don't trust a siphon overflow because if it can go
wrong, I know it will. It seems those are my only two choices.
<I understand your concerns with both types of overflows. If you are interested
in having a sump I encourage you to check with some of the local fish stores or
clubs. You may find someone in your area that is experienced at drilling tanks
that can help you out. You could even decide to drill it yourself. If not, the
siphon overflows are fine with vigilance and maintenance to keep them flowing.
Running two of these is a good idea for redundancy’s sake.>
Should I just get the skimmer now and skip on a sump for simplicity?
<This really depends on what you want to do, but a skimmer is definitely
recommended either way.>
I also am curious if my live rock will restore. The heat and my negligence
killed off most of the life. In the last few weeks it has seen some growth of
different types of green algae and a few spots of dark red/brown slimy spots. I
plan to purchase some more love rock when I move.
<Your live rock will recolonize in time, additional rock to further seed it will
be helpful.>
Any input is greatly appreciated. I want to do it right this time around and I
continue to research, but sometimes the answers are vague.
<As some are here, there is just a lot of personal choice in matters like this.
I will never own an undrilled tank again. However, I understand the concerns
people have drilling a tank. It is a fairly straightforward process, but you do
always take a chance of cracking the tank while drilling. I have personally seen
many more tanks broken by careless excess weight/pressure put on the lines
coming through the glass after the tank has been drilled than by the drilling
process itself!>
Thank you for your time,
Eric
<Welcome Eric. It sounds like you are on the right track, regardless of sump or
not. Good luck, Scott V.>
90 gallon AGA Sump Choices
2/3/08
Hi guys.
<Hello Jason.>
As usual, I love what you guys do for your fellow reefers. Thanks a ton.
<WWM is a pleasure to be a part of.>
To the task at hand. I've had a standard 90 gallon AGA tank sitting in my office
for over a year now and I’m finally getting down to business with getting her
started. I've been running a 37 gallon reef for a few years now and I’m glad to
be going bigger.
<I bet you are, congratulations on the new setup.>
I would like your input as to sump/refugium idea's as this is the way I plan to
go for filtration on the reef. I've thought of designing my own sump/fuge but I
don't have the time to do so and I just plain don't trust myself to do a good
enough job with it.
<I’m sure with some research you could do a fine job, but you do have to
consider what your time is worth!!>
I was hoping you could suggest some Brands or places I could look to get one
already ready to go.
<Premiumaquatics.com has some common units on their site. Glass-Holes.com (this
is my own company) will build them on a custom basis, as well as
MyReefCreations.com, they will build custom and have some nice prefabricated
designs.>
I know that some believe it's best to have the refugium in addition to the sump
and I’ve seen a few that I’ve liked but have no idea if they'd be proper enough
for what I’m looking to do.
<You can definitely incorporate a refugium into a sump. Having an external
refugium is generally easier if you are planning a larger refugium, space
permitting.>
I'm going to attach a jpg and a link of one that I’ve been looking over online,
<<This graphic is commercial, someone else's work. Not posted therefore. RMF>>
<From the picture it appears to input to the refugium on the left, then under
the intake to your return/skimmer chamber. The intake goes through whichever
filter media you use in it straight to the return/skimmer chamber. You will need
to either pump into the refugium or split your overflow line to feed it. The
only problem I see is the refugium water will have to pass through the skimmer
chamber before it returns to your tank. This poses a hazard to any microfauna
produced in the refugium. If you set up a recirculating skimmer fed directly
from the overflow this will not be an issue.>
as well as I thought I’d as if anything is known about ADHI brand
refugium/sumps.
<These are fairly nice models for the money, they generally do have a relatively
high water level in the skimmer chamber and a rather anemic refugium light for
my taste. Depending on your skimmer you may have to set it on top of something
to get it at an appropriate depth.>
Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thank you again!
Jason
<Welcome, have fun setting up, Scott V.>
Re: Nitrate, ECO 30 on EBay 2/25/07
Sorry, one more (series) of questions. My wife brought up a valid point. I
can be useless when it comes to building and fixing things so maybe I will
purchase a wet/dry refugium. What do you recommend (30 inch max) for short
money? The ECO 30 on EBay, are they OK? I just upgraded to the Outer Orbit,
which set me back a few $'s. Thanks again.
<Look like nice, service-able units:
http://stores.ebay.com/usa-refugium
and a legitimate (though home-grown) player. Bob Fenner>
Adding a sump and overflow ... a new Beck song refrain?
2/22/07
Hi Crew
<Hi Mark, Mich here.>
Thanks for a great resource and all the hard work!
<Thanks for appreciating it!>
There is so much to learn to be a responsible hobbyist.
<A never-ending learning experience.>
I recently up graded from a 55 gallon to a 125 gallon aquarium my first
mistake was not buying a pre drilled tank.
<Congratulations! Yes drilled is definitely desirable.>
I'm currently using a canister filter and am finding it unsatisfactory.
<Not surprising.>
I want to add a sump and need an overflow box. But, from what I am reading
this seems like it will be another mistake.
<Any chance of getting the tank drilled? Many local aquarium clubs have
people who are proficient at drilling tempered glass.>
Is there an over flow that is safe to use?
<Two is better than one is a good philosophy here!>
I am concerned about power outage and flooding.
<A wise concern.>
Also, for a 125-gallon aquarium what kind of flow rate should I be looking
at.
<Depends, some say 10 to 20 times the tank volume per hour, but also depends
on what kind of circulation you have within the tank.
I have a 29-gallon aquarium that I want to use for a sump.
<Can also you large Rubbermaid type containers as well.>
Also, I need to buy a pump for return and I have about 5 and 1/2 feet from
sump to aquarium what kind of pump do I need?
<Look for a head height calculator tool, on bulletin boards such as
www.reefcentral.com>
One last question, I am not planning to use bio balls or a pre filter and
don't need a pre filter box that the overflow hose would normally attach to
is there a
way to secure the overflow hose to the 29-gallon aquarium sump without
buying a pre filter box so that I can have more available space?
<Usually gravity is enough to do the trick.>
Sorry if my question is a little basic...this is a new area for me.
<No worries. I'm glad to answer them! -Mich>
Regards, Mark
Gaining Sump “Awareness”... and Other Stuff – 02/01/07
Wow Eric, your Latin is quite impressive.
<<Aw shucks, you’re just saying that! (don’t be impressed, the Internet is a
wondrous tool...)>>
You are such a man of mystery.
<<Oh?… [cue theme music from ‘Mission Impossible’]>>
I have one for you, a quid pro quo, if you will: Esse Quam Videri. Don't be
too impressed in return. That is actually my college sorority's motto. It also
happens to be North Carolina's state motto.
<<Ah yes!>>
I will let you look that one up, as I had to do a bit of translating on my own.
<<Hmm, not so difficult really…"To be, rather than to seem"…I like that>>
Okay history lesson over. I could get so carried away with nonsense, which I am
sure you and the crew could do without. I already have taken up so much of your
web space. Everyone is probably thinking, or hoping, I just shut-up and get to
the point.
<<Hee-hee! More likely anxiously wondering what will come next>>
This is so much more fun though, isn't it?
<<Indeed…though folks are gonna start talking…[grin]>>
It must be much nicer to be in sunny S.C. then the coal region here in
Pennsylvania.
<<Mmm, well…like I tell my in-laws who live in Western Nebraska…”If you choose
to live there!…”>>
You are lucky. I see that your fellow crewmember, Mich is in the Pocono’s here.
<<Yep! In fact both she and Bob will be in town for a visit week from today>>
That is not too far from me. Much more scenic/touristy than my town, that is
for sure. If you want to go on a tour of a coalmine, this is the county to
visit. Or, if you have ever heard of Yuengling beer, they literally brew it
right here.
<<Oh yes! I have a friend here that has transplanted from New Jersey that
usually has a case or two on hand>>
I don't drink it if I can help it, but my husband is a die-hard fan. I
personally am a Miller-Lite girl.
<<I enjoy having a brew or three…especially when I’m drinking with Bob and
friends at the ‘Kona Brewing Company’ during visits to the Big Island…but I’m
really a “rum” kinda guy>>
Now that is really off topic and unsolicited. Yuengling recently set up a
brewery in Florida if I am not mistaken, so maybe you are familiar with it. If
my memory of geography serves me correctly, you are semi-close to FL??
<<Separated by Georgia, yes>>
And just to note, I am not totally against stalking. I do have some experience,
on the flipside that is. My sister had a stalker. Let's just say it involved
face paint and fatigues.
<<Yikes!>>
Oh and the police...we don't want to leave them out. Gosh, maybe I do need a
pen pal.
<<Indeed>>
First of all, holy big tank you have.
<<My pride and joy>>
It must be gorgeous, not to mention time consuming.
<<Actually no…no more than most any other tank. I’ve rigged/automated the
routine functions…heck, a 50 gallon water change involves opening a valve to
drain and pushing a button to refill…entails about 15-minutes at most>>
Do you post pics of it anywhere?
<<Hmm, nothing current>>
I like to sit and watch mine all the time, I can't imagine what goes on in
yours.
<<Indeed, much time spent gazing/observing every day…but then that’s why I have
it!>>
I crack up when a Nassarius snail climbs up the glass too far and falls
off. What would I do if I had something bigger to amuse myself with?
<<I can’t imagine...>>
Did you think that was funny?
<<…?>>
So, the skimmer. I am thinking I will go ahead and purchase the AquaC Remora
with the Maxi-Jet, but I think I will research the sump thing a bit first.
<<All good…you will be quite happy with the AquaC I’m sure. The owner of the
company (Jason Kim) is a fine lad and will be more than happy to answer any
questions you may have…don’t hesitate to contact him or his mate Steve on the
AquaC website. And do feel free to let them know I sent you their way. As for
the sump...once you’ve digested some info on the use/application/installation,
do come back for clarification if need be>>
I was so hoping you'd tell me the AquaC was less "intrusive."
<<Not when it comes to hanging the skimmer on the display tank I’m afraid>>
Thanks for the input on that.
<<Any time>>
I did a little research, and I mean little, today, and I am still so
confused. Maybe I am just dense.
<<I don’t think so...will become clear in time>>
I hope this isn't a dumb question, but are sump and refugium synonymous?
<<Mmm…different purposes/applications…though a sump can often “incorporate” a
refugium…but my preference is to utilize separate purposeful vessels for each>>
I didn't do a whole lot of reading, but with a sump, does the skimmer get used
on that, versus on the display tank?
<<Ah yes! Aside from the extra “volume” a sump affords to a system it also
provides a handy place for installing the ancillary equipment (skimmer, heaters,
media reactors, etc.)>>
Feel free to just tell me to search your site here.
<<Search our site here [grin]: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plumbingmarart.htm And
be sure to follow the many associated links at the top of the page>>
I am not looking for you to do the work for me.
<<Can’t really...you need to read/understand and then we can “fine tune” from
there>>
I guess I just don't get it, and understandably so, as I have not yet put forth
the time to
"know."
<<Well then...there ya go....>>
I honestly never looked into any hobbyist groups in my area.
<<These can be an excellent source of information/assistance...plus you get to
meet/mingle with other pet-fish nerds>>
Before my set-up, I did go to a friend of a friend's house to see his set-up for
ideas/info. The only thing that did was make me feel bad for his fishes and
want to study up a heck of a lot more than he obviously did.
<<So it was not a “waste” then>>
I also tried to contact the son of a woman I know who had a beautiful 65-gallon
reef tank, which sadly he allowed to deteriorate after a mishap with his
lighting.
<<Unfortunate>>
I actually tried to talk to him about lighting before I was lucky enough to find
you to put up with me. Now, I wish that would have worked out because I would
love to find out if he has/had a sump and see if he could give me some
direction. I have already tried twice with no luck, but maybe the third time is
a charm. I promise not to ask you guys and gals about it again until I have
some background in it.
<<Will definitely be helpful for you to have an idea of “what to ask”>>
I could try the store I make all of my purchases at too. They have very
friendly and knowledgeable staff who are eager to help.
<<Also an option, yes>>
As far as I can tell, anyone I have ever dealt with there seems to be in the
hobby, plus they have somewhere around 7 Marine Biologists on staff.
<<Ah, one of the big stores eh?>>
I feel comfortable they'd help me out. Are you now chanting..."Call them, go
there...please! I can't take it anymore."
<<Not at all...but I will stress it is best for you to gather information from
several sources before taking action. Research (there’s that word again) what
you can and base a decision on your own good judgment>>
Just one more thing...if I am capable of that little self-control. You
mentioned in your first reply to this email about a small canister filter.
<<Yes I did...for chemical filtration>>
Do you mean in addition to the filter I already have?
<<Don’t recall you stating what you already had>>
I know I did not mention it, but I have a Fluval 304 canister filter currently.
<<Oh...perfect! This will work fine... And here’s a link to more reading re
their use on marine systems:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marcanistfltfaqs.htm >>
I am going to miss you when this exchange is over.
<<Just an email away...>>
Many thanks again.
<<Quite welcome>>
I cannot say it enough.
<<Has truly been a pleasure>>
Sincerely,
Triple-T (a.k.a. Tiffani, the hot mom, although I guess that is subject to one's
own interpretation)
I am so ridiculous. I am sorry. I just can't stop.
<<From now on it’s “decafe” for you...>>
They probably do make medication for that, you know?
<<Hmm...>>
Well, "they" do. I do know that for sure, not from personal experience, per se.
<<So you claim...[grin]>>
I worked in mental health for quite a few years. Maybe I should phone some
former co-workers. LOL. Have a great rest of the day.
<<And you>>
I will definitely put forth the effort in the future to use your site/the crew
more appropriately.
<<And do get a copy of Bob’s book ‘The Conscientious Marine Aquarist’ as well as
his and Anthony’s collaboration ‘Reef Invertebrates’. Both books should help
with your sump/refugium education...and so much more>>
Feel free to ignore non-fish related statements.
<<We acknowledge all. Be chatting my friend, Eric Russell>>
Re: Gaining Sump "Awareness"... and Other Stuff - 02/01/07
Hey Eric,
<<Hey T3>>
Brace yourself. You won't know how to act. I will keep this one short and
sweet.
<<Oh yeah? [grin]>>
Thank you so much for your input/direction.
<<Is what we do>>
I will absolutely look over those links.
<<Excellent>>
I also appreciate the additional references/resources you mentioned. I do
already have the C.M.A. I have had it for over a year now and love it. I will
be sure to check back for Reef Invertebrates; since it was sold out last time I
was able to hit That Fish Place in Lancaster, PA.
<<Ah yes, the place with the marine biologists on staff>>
It is a huge place. I am so glad to have found it and have it be nearby.
<<Cool...would love to see that place some day>>
I do have Aquarium Corals to read too, so I am on my way.
<<Much wonderment/discovery ahead of you>>
Slow and steady wins the race, as someone famous once said. Or maybe that
someone only got famous from making that statement.
<<Now there's a thought...>>
Who knows? Who cares, right? Thank you to all of the crew, and especially to
you for everything you've done.
<<It's been fun Tiffani>>
Wink, wink! Do enjoy your visit with Mich and Bob.
<<Oh yes! Fun times ahead!>>
Perhaps if anyone wants to adopt me, I would love to go to Hawaii.
<<I'm having withdrawals myself...ready for another trip, but I fear it may be a
while yet>>
Next time I write in, I will be armed with more information.
<<Will help us both>>
You all are so great and have been so kind.
<<Thank you for the kind words>>
Keep up the good work.
Tiffani
<<Cheers Mate, EricR>>
R2: Gaining Sump "Awareness"... and Other Stuff
(mostly) - 02/02/07
Alright Eric, I thought I would be done, but I just can't let go
yet. Seriously, just wanted to say thanks again and ask you one final
question.
<<Okey-dokey>>
I actually had more, but I will leave well enough alone.
<<No worries Tiffani...I/we are here to help>>
You needn't reply back, so no worries, unless you start to enter into
withdrawal without my daily harassing emails.
<<Ha! No problem my dear...not feeling harassed at all>>
I was just wondering what sort of curse you put on me.
<<uh-oh?>>
Did you send the angry skimmer god my way?
<<Hee-hee...not intentionally>>
Sick of the color of most everything in my tank, I thought I'd clean up
my protein skimmer today and rinse off some algae. I did nothing that I
do not normally do, but, now it seems it doesn't want to work.
<<Not unusual...if you left the settings as they were previously it
should resume before long>>
So, thanks. It seems that AquaC Remora is just a click away now.
<<All for the best...>>
Your pen pal, T3 (that cracks me up). I have a few nicknames, which I
am so sure your readers do not want to hear or are not appropriate for
this website, but this is a classic. I think I will spread it around.
<<Glad you like it [grin]. Eric Russell>>
Sump Design/Filter Socks - 03/08/06
Hi WWM Crew:
<<Hey there Tom!>>
Thank you very much for all the help so far, you've been huge.
<<Our pleasure>>
I have another question: I'm just not understanding how best to provide
raw water to the sump skimmer, because I also thought I needed (and
would rinse at least weekly) a filter sock for incoming sump water to
remove as much detritus as possible from our 120G mixed reef system. Is
the sock really needed?
<<Opinions vary...but I don't use them on my reef.>>
I've attached a top and front view of the new sump I'm planning. It's
as big as can fit under the tank, otherwise I'd have a larger refugium
section.
<<Nice drawings...very helpful.>>
If I were to remove the filter sock, how could I then physically filter
the water before it gets to the return pump?
<<Mmm, not always necessary, again, in my opinion...but even without the
filter sock much will settle out in the baffles and can be
vacuumed/siphoned out periodically.>>
Could you also review the diagrams and tell me what's good (and not so
good)?
<<Happy to... I would move the skimmer to the first chamber and let ALL
the raw water from the tank enter here to be processed by the skimmer
and overflowing to the refugium in the middle compartment. This way
plankton/epiphytic matter from the refugium doesn't get sucked in to
(and wasted by) the skimmer, but rather, has a free ride to your return
pump and up to the display tank.>>
Thanks,
Tom
<<Regards, EricR>> |
 |
 |
Sump Design/Filter Socks II - 03/09/06
I guess now I have a couple of follow up questions, appreciate your
patience.
<<No problem>>
I'm sure inclined to go the route you suggest, without a sock, but I would not
have any physical filtration in the system other than the skimmer, is that
right?
<<Correct. Ideally you will have enough flow in your tank to keep detritus in
suspension to be utilized by the tank inhabitants.>>
Just curious...about how often should the sump detritus need to be siphoned out
of the baffles and skimmer compartment?
<<Depends, maybe 2-3 times a year...but you'll likely find this area densely
populated by bristle worms, amphipods, other micro-crustaceans, and may not have
to bother with it.>>
Also, with the refugium section in the middle, would the 1000 GPH going through
it be too much?
<<Most any refugium methodology will do fine with the flow.>>
Thought of a new question, still related. Would you say I'm better off going
with an external sump return pump (like a GenX Mak4), or a similar capacity
internal pump (like a Mag 12 or 18)? I'd like to get an actual 1000GPH through
the 1" SeaSwirl. A submersible internal pump would allow me to make the sump a
few inches longer, but I'd like to avoid the added heat of the submersible Mag.
<<If you were to use an Iwaki or GRI pump I would say go external. But given
the choices listed I would use the Mag-Drive pump. Noise will be less and the
difference in heat transfer negligible.>>
Thanks, in advance!
Tom
<<Always welcome, EricR>>
Combined Sump/Refugium Design - 03/11/06
Good Evening Crew,
<<Morning here>>
I have a follow-up question to a submission posted by another querier (Tom)
titled "sump design/filter socks" from the WWM daily FAQs of 03/08/06. The
submitter of this initial query provided very nice drawings of a proposed
refugium/sump design (side and top views). Distinguished WWM responder, Eric
R., provided an answer that suggested switching the position of the refugium &
sump. Eric's answer is perfectly clear/understood. However, seeing the
submitted drawings mentioned above, reading Eric's response and having read some
of Mr. Fenner's (and other Crew member's) comments about sump/fuge design has me
wondering about another element of sump/fuge layout.
<<Ah yes, I recall the exchange(s) well...EricR here...again.>>
I believe in one of Mr. Fenner's archived answers on the topic, he indicated
that sump/fuge design might be optimized by incorporating some ability to
implement carbon and/or Poly-Filter when/if necessary.
<<No might/when/if about it in my opinion <G>. Virtually any/every system
would/will benefit from the addition of these media.>>
I am wondering, referring to the design drawings mentioned above, where in this
design would one place such (carbon/Poly-Filter) bags/pads, etc?
<<Anywhere along the filter flow-path. In the sump mentioned, the media could
be placed in amongst the baffles. Some manufactured sumps incorporate a
dedicated "media chamber" for this purpose.>>
Would one envelope the output pipe from the skimmer in a carbon-filled or
Poly-Filter type bag?
<<Could, but I wouldn't. Aside from being a pain to employ, it would likely
wreak havoc with your drain's output/flow.>>
Or, would it be better to direct the skimmer output to a higher-level, drip-tray
type device or compartment (similar to Marineland's filter-drawer-style sump)
wherein carbon material and/or Poly-Filter pads are placed in "drizzle path" to
achieve necessary chemical filtering if/as necessary?
<<Mmm...me thinks it would just be easier to place the media somewhere along the
filter flow-path...>>
In addition, acknowledging the fact that there are greatly varied opinions in
the hobby on this subject, my reading of the FAQs re sump/fuge design has led me
to believe that "parallel" flow systems here (i.e. a specifically determined
volume & turnover-rate-based % of tank output going separately but concurrently
to both sump and fuge, with the two coming together again at the return) are
better than a "series" method of sump-into-fuge-to-return design?
<<I absolutely agree! Employing a separate sump and refugium is always better
IMO/E.>>
If one is running, for example, an Aqua-C EV-240 using a Mag 1200, wouldn't the
output of that into your average fuge cause total destruction in an average
setup unless (even if) manifolded?
<<Mmm, no...many refugium methodologies benefit from high flow rates. I have a
55 gallon vegetable refugium (6" sugar-fine DSB w/Chaetomorpha algae) with a
flow through of more than 1,000 gph. I'm not saying it has to be that high
(though some authors might disagree), but it does tolerate the flow well and
could easily stand more. The high flow rate also assists with getting
planktonic/epiphytic matter out of the refugium and in to the display tank.>>
It would seem much more logical to divert tank output to the sump and fuge
compartments separately and have skimmer output going directly to main return,
bypassing fuge.
<<More logical to have separate vessels/inputs/outputs, yes...though for
"combined" vessels, focus should be on having the 'fuge output bypass the
skimmer chamber else much of the benefit re (IMO) is wasted.>>
This is what I am planning in my design, anyway....am I mistaken?
<<As long as you aren't flowing from your refugium to your skimmer I think you
are on track.>>
Part of the reason I am trying to design/build my own sump and fuge is because I
haven't yet found any manufacturers that produce (at least what I can tell is) a
"parallel" system.
<<Agreed>>
I am wondering why truly parallel-style systems aren't more widely commercially
available?.
<<Good question, would appeal to me...perhaps folks/manufacturers are just
"comfortable with/complacent about" current design. Perhaps you could use your
design to spark a change!>>
Or, are they, and I've just not looked in the right places?
<<Don't think so.>>
Highly regarded (apparently) sump/fuge systems such as those offered by
Ecosystems (those that I've seen) seem to be of a "series" nature...unless I
don't fully understand their design/functional flow?
<<My experiences match yours. Commonly available sump/refugium systems employ
designs where water flows through a "series" of chambers from one end to the
other. I envision a parallel system employing a lengthwise center panel/plate
allowing the formation of two longitudinal chambers, with both terminating at a
single pump chamber. As you stated each chamber could be fed individually, with
flow tailored to suit, and each side customized /compartmentalized for its
intended purpose.>>
Thank you very much for your time/advice here.
Best Regards,
Brian
<<Cheers, EricR>>
Sump Design/Filter Socks II - 3/16/2006
Hi Eric,
<<Hey Tom!>>
I see the diagrams I included with my recent "Sump Design/Filter Socks -
03/08/06" inquiry resulted in more discussion on the topic, so I wanted to make
sure the other WWM reader (Brian) knew about www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html.
Some of Melev's sump designs looked similar to what I needed, plus there are
several other examples that might help Brian with the "parallel" sump/refugium
design.
<<Thank you for this.>>
Regarding placement of the skimmer in the center section, I thought very little
of the refugium output would end up back in the skimmer because of the way the
EV180 skimmer body will partition the center section. On one side of the EV180,
around 800-900 GPH will be coming into the skimmer pump area via the overflow,
and the EV180 can only process around half that flow. So this "excess" flow into
the skimmer pump area should keep most of the skimmer and refugium output, which
is on the other side of the EV180, from getting back into the skimmer pump...the
bulk of the skimmer and refugium output should just flow into the baffles. At
least that's the theory...
<<Mmm, I see your point...likely will be fine then.>>
These drawings were done in a hurry and are missing lots of details. I'll be
putting media bag(s) in the baffle area, and redundant float switches, for auto
top-off, in the return pump area. The divider between the refugium and skimmer
section will be opaque, black acrylic to keep the algae growth in the refugium.
One minor difference from some other refugium designs I've seen will be that the
refugium output will not simply flow over a wall into the return area, rather it
will come from near the bottom of the refugium where I figured most of the 'pods
like to hang out.
<<Indeed they do. And once the mysids start breeding (feed them well...are
cannibalistic) you will see little "clouds" of tiny young swirling just above
the substrate.>>
The main goals with this sump design are (1) a decent size refugium and (2)
high, 1000+ GPH, bubble-free flow to a SeaSwirl return...but it all has to fit
in a very limited space with a pre-determined overflow location.
<<A common tale.>>
Lots of other equipment (Ca reactor, CO2 bottle, freshwater reservoir, PhosBan
reactor, closed-loop pump, chiller pump, power strips, timers, etc) needs to fit
in the same cabinet, and I'll be using every square inch of space.
<<A very common tale <grin>.>>
One thing I've learned in my short time as a reef keeper is that it's the
opportunity for individual planning, design, and methods that help make this
hobby interesting.
<<Yes! To bad so many overlook these steps.>>
Another thing I've learned is to read, and get advice from WWM...please let me
know if I'm headed the right direction.
<<Keep reading/questioning/learning my friend.>>
Just to confirm your earlier answer to the sump return pump selection, would a
110 watt, external GenX Mak4 really add about as much heat to the water as a 145
watt, submersible Mag18?
<<Actually, I had a Mag12 in mind when I made that comment...but even so, I
don't think you will find the temperature transfer from the Mag18 to be a
problem, no.>>
I've been using a Mak4 for a closed loop, and it sure seems like the bulk of the
heat is produced & dissipated away from the wet end of the pump.
<<Agreed...but I also think the GenX pump runs hotter than the Mag-Drive. I
think you will do fine whichever method you choose. If heat is going to be an
issue for you I really doubt which of these pumps you use will be a deciding
factor. Mounting fans (I use 4" 12v computer fans run on inexpensive outdoor
lighting transformers) to blow across your tank AND your sump/refugium will go a
long way towards mitigating any "overheating" issues.>>
As always, a big thanks,
Tom
<<And as always, very welcome. Regards, EricR>>
Cold water system 03/07/06
Hello again,
Quick question resulting from a change in setup plans -- instead of installing a
20 gal fuge & 20 gal sump within the confines of the stand
beneath the main 125 display tank, I have plumbed the system into the
basement. By doing this I have created more space for myself and have
placed the fuge/sump in a much cooler place.
<I wish we had these basements in S. Cal.!>
I am running a chiller (1/3 hp) to maintain a constant water temp of 60-65 F
(also located in the basement). Here's the dilemma: I have already drilled and
put
effort into setting up the (2) 20 gal tanks (for the in stand setup). Now that I
am in the basement I have much more room for a larger fuge
and sump. My question is this: should I go with the existing setup, resulting
in 40 gallons total (fuge/sump) plus inline chiller, or,
increase the size of the fuge/sump to increase total volume of
filtration? 'Bigger is better'
<Is...>
in most cases I understand, but in my case I need to keep the water at constant
low temperature. by adding more water, I am increasing the demand on the
chiller. I will have live
sand, live rock and algae in both the refugium, as well as, the display tank
itself. Will this be enough?
<Likely so>
(also, I failed to mention that I have installed an Aqua C 180 skimmer in the 20
gal sump). Just wanted to make sure the volume is adequate as I have been
amazed at some of the volumes I have seen for other tank setups (i.e..- 150
gallon display supported by 125 gallon refugium & 125 gal sump.). Please advise
and thank you for your help.
Matt
<I would "go with what you have" for now... the transit volume (water in
play/circulation) is a chief concern... only experience will show you how much
of your forty gallons will be left "unused" to accommodate this should
power/pump fail. Bob Fenner>
Sump question 3/2/06
Hello wonderful WWM Crew for it has been six months since my last question,
<Far too long I should think! Tim answering your question today.>
Thank all of you so much for the help on my SPS tank, it is everything I had
hoped it to be. <Am very happy to hear!> I want to start up a second tank, a
FOWLR. <Great idea!> Everything I know (albeit not that much) about filtration
is for reef tanks, are FOWLR the same? <Any kind of FO system, whether with or
without live rock will definitely benefit from having the same filtration system
as a reef system, though in most instances you will find that a FO system is far
less demanding in terms of water quality (though obviously this should still be
as high as possible).> Someone suggested having two overflows <I would agree
with this though more in terms of skimming area and to minimize the risks
associated with one of the overflows becoming blocked.>, one that feeds an in
sump skimmer, the other feeding a wet/dry with filter floss <If you are using a
sump then I would not recommend using filter floss except where absolutely
necessary as this will yield a potential nitrate problem; this is true
particularly with aggressive fish that tend to be messy eaters. Ensure any floss
that you do use is cleaned on a weekly basis.> and carbon that then goes into a
sump with mangroves, then into a sump with mud, then into a sump with algae and
then into a sump with live rock <To my knowledge should be able to combine all
these into a single compartment - that is to say, have the mud together with
some Chaetomorpha and a couple of chunks of live rock within a single
compartment in your sump. Also if you are using macro algae such as Chaetomorpha
then there really is no need to use mangroves (which are arguably slow at
absorbing nutrients).> and the skimmer then back to the tank. Should I also have
a refugium? <Your sump, as you outline it above already contains a refugium -
namely the compartment with your algae, live rock and mud. A refugium is simply
a part of the aquarium providing 'refuge' from predators, allowing smaller
organisms such as amphipods and copepods to thrive.> I have room for all of
these under my tank if each could be a 10 gallon tank. If this is perfect for an
aggressive tank is the order of sumps correct? <I think your lighting of the
sump would also be simplified through combination of these compartments.>
Thank you for the continued help,
Sebastian
Re: sump question 3/3/06
Thank you Tim for such a prompt response, <I try my best...>
If I understand you correctly; having two overflows, one feeding an in
sump skimmer (haven't purchased the skimmer yet, was thinking a
LifeReef <I
have no experience with this make, sorry.>. Is a stand alone skimmer better to
keep water temp down as I plan to have MH's <Your selection of skimmer should
not have any significant effect on the water temperature in your system.> ( the
MH's are for the pretty shimmer effect on the sand... gotta have that) <I
completely agree - plus the live rock will benefit from it as well.>) and
the other overflow go straight into a sump with mud, live rock and macro algae.
No wet/dry as a prefilter to the sump? <I would not consider it necessary, no.
Instead use bioballs or similar media in the first compartment of your sump -
this will have the same effect as a wet/dry and is easier to keep clean.> Last
question... Is there a formula to calculate what size sump (I know bigger is
better but only so much space under the tank.... I'm a renter, no holes in the
wall yet) I will need for a 140 gallon. <As you said yourself, the bigger the
better. Use as much space under your tank as you can whilst keeping things
practical - consider that you may need space for other equipment in the future,
and remember to leave enough headroom for a lighting fixture to illuminate your
refugium.>
Thanks again and tell everyone there including your self that I believe
this service is advancing the hobby by leaps and bounds. <Thank you very much!>
It would take generations of book publishing to get out the information WWM
provides, and yet with most books the technology and ideology has already
surpassed it by the time they hit the store shelves <Except for Bobs brilliant
books of course! :o) >.
Sumps ... pumps and Ferris wheels. 2/10/06
Dear Bob,
I have a 20 gallon mud sump setup with 2 mangrove pods and Caulerpa
algae growing in it. I have read that leaving the light on for 24/7 is
beneficial for
oxygen in the water and it can potentially stop certain bacteria from
releasing the wastes that create the yellowing of some water. <Have read
myself.>
Anyways my problem is that I have red algae growing on my sump walls. Can I add
turbo snails or some kind of snails to the sump in order to control
it? <If they will eat red algae. May have problems with snails getting into
intake of pump unless protected.>
I have a 700 gallon per hour cycle on my 55 gallon tank. I mention this because
I read on your site that increased flow should cut back on the red algae. <Are
we talking Cyano here or algae?> Can I add snails to the sump or what other ways
are there to cut down on the red algae. <Give the mud system a chance to
develop, should control this algae.>
My second question I'm sure you get a lot. I have a gravity vacuum overflow box.
My problem comes into play when the power goes out and the water drains
into the sump. When the suction is broken and the power comes back my house
will look like the great flood. Is there anything to stop a return pump from
pumping when the power is returned. I am considering wiring a float switch
backwards so if the water raises it cuts off the pump, <How do you start the
pump then? Waters not going to go down till the pump starts. Would have to
force the float switch down. I don't like that idea.> but is there a better
way? <Sounds to me like your sump isn't large enough for the tank. A 55 gallon
tank with a flow rate of 700 gph is going to require at least a 12 gallon
sump. What's yours?>
Thanks <You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jason
Re: Overflow Configuration - 01/24/06
Please let me explain how my sump has been set up.
<<Alright>>
The sump consists of 3 compartments. The first is where the water enters from
the overflow consists of substrate on the bottom, looks like shells in
appearance, then plastic balls. Then white filter wool.
<<Cleaned/replaced weekly (or more often as needed) I hope.>>
The water exits through slots at the bottom and enters the second chamber, this
is where the protein skimmer is situated. The water then flows over a glass
divider and is pumped back into the display tank.
<<If this is working for you that's fine, but my preference would be to remove
the filter media (add a filter sock to the sump return if you wish to
trap/remove particulates), and place the skimmer in the "first" chamber to
process "raw" tank water. The second chamber could then be used to hold
chemical media (carbon/Chemi-Pure/Poly-Filter), or utilized as a
refugium. EricR>>
Regards,
Alan
Sump Brands, Refugium VS Wet-Dry
Hi, great info on site!
<Hello Chris, thanks for the kind words.>
My question deals with filtration for a 110 gallon predator tank that will
have a sufficient bioload on it.
<Okay.>
I have been considering a wet dry filter because of their nitrifying
capabilities, but since I need sump space for my aqua-c EV 180 protein skimmer,
I am unsure whether the bio wheel tidepool 2 is better than bio ball filters, or
if the bio balls are better.
<They are about equal in my opinion both are plastic media which play as a
breeding ground for nitrifying bacteria, great at breaking down ammonia and
nitrate, not so great with nitrate.>
Can you recommend a sump?
<Check out the sumps made by CPR aquatics and MyReefCreations.>
Also your site does not recommend wet/dries because refugiums are superior, but
is this true for heavy bio load fish only tanks?
<Yes in my opinion the benefits of a fishless/macroalgae refugium easily
outweigh that of a wet-dry.>
would this be the way to go rather than a wet dry for a heavy bio load?
<If you have room you could include both, have the refugium come after the
wet-dry...though yes in my opinion if I have to choose either or I would
definitely choose the refugium.>
thanks a lot!
Chris
<Welcome, Adam J.>
Sumps and Invertebrates 12/12/05
Hi <Hello Will>
I have a question to ask regarding sumps. I have a 23 gallon reef tank
that has been setup for about a year. I had a Skilter 250 on it and an
Aqua C skimmer, but the Skilter broke, and my Aqua c doesn't produce
anything, <Skimmers must be cleaned weekly to be efficient. Check out your
manual.> so my filtration is lacking. I was wondering if a sump would
help my situation. I was thinking a 20 gallon Rubbermaid container,
with an overflow box (since my tank isn't drilled) for a sump. Would
this do anything to help even if it was not a refugium? <Yes, by increasing the
total amount of water in the system.> Should I put
live rock in it or is that not necessary? <You can. It will increase the
carrying capacity.> If I did put live rock in it
should it just go in the bottom or should it be separated from the
pump. <It can be in the sump.> I'm having trouble finding a good DIY
sump/refugium direction,
any ideas? <Here is a link to FAQ's on that subject. Read what others have
done.> My display tank has about 25 lbs of live rock and 40 lbs of
live sand. If I did have the 20 gallon sump with an overflow box that
can handle 600 gph, how many gph should my return pump be if the sump is
3-4ft below the display tank? <I'd go with a 400gph pump.>
I also had a question about invertebrates. I have a problem with micro
hair algae, but it only grows on the sand. Is there a type of
invertebrates that will help? My snails don't seem to go on the sand,
and my crabs don't eat it. I was looking at urchins, and was wondering
if a black long spine urchin (Diadema setosum) would help. I read that
they were venomous and was wondering if they would poke and hurt my
corals. <I'd probably go with a lawnmower blenny and avoid the urchins for the
reason you stated.>
My last question is about clams. I read that they help filter the water
to keep it clean. <They do remove some nitrate from the water but don't act as
a filter. Clams are photosynthetic (at least the ones we keep in our reef
tanks) and produce most of their own food.> Would this help my tank? I have a
96 watt PC light
that is 50/50, is this enough for any clams? <Not nearly enough light.>
Sorry for asking so many questions.
Any advice is appreciated. <You're welcome, James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks,
Will
Tank Setup/FAQs, Art, and Science - 12/04/05
I am a newbie who has been reading your site and everything else can find.
<<A good way to start.>>
My question is for a new FOWLR setup. I plan on using about 60lbs of live rock (should I use more?)
<<Probably plenty...for either tank size. The idea is to strike a balance between adding enough to provide hiding/resting places for the fish, not overcrowding the tank (allowing swimming room), supplementing the filtration system, and creating a display that is aesthetically pleasing.>>
and a wet dry (not sure which brand) on a pre- drilled tank. My question since I am confused by your site,
<<?>>
what makes a sump different from the wet dry?
<<Hmm...is all explained on the site...many times over...a simple Google search finds much info re. make a start here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sumprffiltfaqs.htm and keep following/reading the indices in blue until you understand.>>
Is it the lack of bio-balls?
<<Not necessarily>>
Also does the sump have live rock, sand or something else in there?
<<It can>>
Can I make either one with a spare tank (I'm pretty handy)?
<<Certainly...have a look through our DIY FAQs for links to sites with ideas/plans:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/diytksfaqs.htm>>
I would appreciate if you could clear this up for me I read as much as I can but sometimes the more you read the more conflicting opinions you get and I want to start off right.
<<This hobby is much about opinions...the information you seek is available on the site...read and learn.
EricR>>
Sump Brands and Protein Skimmer Selection 12/7/05
Once again, I'm in a quandary and could use some advice. No one at WWM has ever led me astray.
<Hi, glad we have helped you, I hope to do so again.>
I have a 120 gallon Oceanic with twin overflows. Currently it is plumbed to a 30 gal refugium and large
Rubbermaid trough type sump, which holds a ETSS skimmer. The pump is an Iwaki MD40RLXT.
<Sounds efficient.>
I have had good results with this system for the last 3 years, but need to simplify to save space (and my marriage).
<Ahhh, I understand.>
I'm considering going to an under-tank refugium and am between 2 models: The large Aquafuge PRO (36x12x16) with skimmer and the Precision Marine R30 (30x14x18), no skimmer.
<I prefer the second model only because I’m not fond of the built in skimmer on the CPR model. I would much rather select my own.>
With the R30 I would possibly try to use my ETSS or add a hang-on Turboflotor.
<Well as you know in sump models are generally much more effective than the hang on varieties. However if you must use a hang on variety due to space constraints the Turbo floater. The Deltec model is at the top of my list with Aqua-C and Tunze coming in at second.>
I like the higher flow rate and layout of the Precision Marine model. In the Aquafuge, I like the longer refugium space and the built in skimmer.
<May I suggest another manufacture. I would look into the sumps/refugium combos available at MRC (My Reef Creations), these are very
quality units as well.>
With either model, I fear I may be shrinking my refugium to a point where it is no longer effective.
<Any ‘fuge is better than no ‘fuge.>
Thanks for any insights you can provide. I have searched the forums and haven't seen much info on the Precision Marine refugium, hence this message.
<See above.>
sgl
<Adam J.>
Upgrades to 240 fish only, or welcome to 2005! 11/18/05
Hello,
<Hi there>
I would like to begin by saying "thank you" to all the volunteers who share their time and knowledge with us. It is a tremendous service
you offer, and we are all very appreciative. With that I shall launch into my situation. Thanks to Bob's excellent book (CMA), your web
site, your response to my previous email a few months back, and a desire to no longer be called an "old school" marine fish keeper,
<Heeee! Better than "no school!">
I have begun changing my 240 marine FO with coral skeletons, wet-dry and canister filtration to natural filtration. When I started setting
up my dream aquarium 10 months ago, I decided to use a mixture of "old school" and natural methods. I believe now that this was a huge
mistake, and should have chosen one method and stuck with it. I did add a refugium, but it doesn't seem to help very much with my nitrate
producing wet-dry, pressure filter, and DLS material in the over-flows.
<Yikes>
I also added a second Euro-reef skimmer. I am still battling nitrates, phosphates, brown algae, and red slime algae. The fish,
however, are all doing great, having gone from a 125 to a 240. And so I embark on a mission to modernize my tank. Here's the plan:
1) Remove all crushed coral and replaced with live sand. (Done)
2) Modify refugium to accept a micron sleeve for mechanical filtration (it is a Redmond Reef model and does not include
provisions for this) then remove the DLS from the overflow feeding the refugium.
<Good>
3) Remove all coral skeletons and replace with live rock (I have 200 lbs on its 3rd week of curing, plan on putting in after 4 full weeks
- the water has 0 ammonia or nitrites, and the rock has only a faint odor)
<Great>
4) Add approx 50 Astrea snails and 50 blue legged hermit crabs to help keep things clean (my French Angel may find the hermits a tasty
treat, we shall see) (is this enough?)
<As far as I'm concerned, yes>
5) Add additional lighting (I currently have 2 96 watt power compacts - I plan to double to 4 - is this necessary or advantageous?)
<More of the latter, but of good application for all the organisms it will encourage that are the live rock, and their consequent part of, impact on your system, yes>
6) Remove Ocean Clear canister filter after I am certain there will be no more die-off from the live rock (this thing works great, but is
a real pain to clean, so I don't do it as often as I should)
<You are wise to understand yourself here>
7) Remove 50% of bio balls after 2 weeks, test water and if all goes well ...
8) Remove remaining bio balls 1-2 weeks later (is this good timing?)
<Oh yes>
9) With bio balls removed, modify wet/dry to make it a sump with room for a micron sleeve mechanical filter that can be easily changed out,
then remove DLS material from it's overflow
<I would just use Emperor Aquatics catch bag/s here...>
How does this plan sound? I have a few additional questions, if you don't mind.
<Fine. Go right ahead>
I currently feed the wet-dry from one overflow and the refugium from the other. Should I combine the flow from both, then separate out to
each device (making it easier to balance the input flow) or is this a waste of time and pvc?
<Mmm, somehow these are tied together I take it? To make sure there aren't overflow, underflow issues? If so, I would leave as is>
I currently use 2 separate pumps, one in the wet-dry and one in the refugium, for water returns. in the beginning, it was difficult to
adjust the flow of each so everything stayed balanced. Even now I have to make minor adjustments every now and then.
<... I would plumb both these together... make them about the same height...>
The real problem would come from the failure of one of the pumps. This would cause the
water to fill up the device with the failed pump (though it would not overflow - I tested that). But it would cause the other pump to run
dry.
<Yes... not a good gamble>
So if one pump fails, essentially both fail. My thought is to combine the outputs of the wet-dry and refugium and use a single
larger external pump (which I already have). Thoughts?
<I would definitely do this, yes>
Finally, by removing the Ocean Clear canister filter, I am removing a good source of water flow. I am not a big fan of powerheads in the
tank. The tank was pre-drilled with 4 holes on top. One is used for the return from the wet-dry. One is used for the return from the
refugium. The other two were used for the intake and output of the Ocean Clear. I would like to create a closed loop system with the
external pump that was driving the Ocean Clear, but it is a very powerful pump, and without the pressure filter aspect of the Ocean
Clear, would produce too strong a current.
What I would like to do is split the output into two, but then I would no longer have a hole for
the input. My plan is to drill a new hole in the back of the tank (it's acrylic), just below the water level should the pump driving
the wet-dry and refugium ever fail. I am comfortable drilling holes in empty tanks, but I have never drilled a tank filled with water and
livestock.
<Can be done... drain the water down, tape over the inside area where the hole will be... go S L O W... with the drill/bit>
My plan is to do this when I am doing a water change, so the hole would be above the water line. I would drill from the back
into the tank, with a friend holding a cup over the drilled area to catch most if not all of the debris. Is this a good plan or should I
take everything out before drilling (which I am certain I would never do, thereby scrapping my closed loop plan)?
<Can be done with some/most water in the systems>
Sorry for the length of this email. And thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide.
Dana McKissick
<Thank you for writing so well, and sharing. Bob Fenner>
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