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FAQs about Toxic Water Conditions: Wipe Out/New Tank Syndromes
Related Articles: Marine Toxic Tank Conditions
, General Marine
Maintenance, Related FAQs:
Toxic Situations 1, Toxic Situations
2, Toxic Situations 3, Toxic
Situations 4, Toxic Situations 5,
Toxic Situations 6, Toxic Situations 7,
Toxic Situations 8, Toxic Situations 9,
& FAQs on Toxic Water Conditions by: Unknown
Causes, &Endogenous (from inside, e.g. Internal, Organic
Causes): Foods,
Nutrients, Venomous/Poisonous
Tankmates, Exogenous (from
outside, External, Inorganic, e.g. Metals),
Marine Algaecide Use/Chemical Control,
Toxic Copper Use Situations/Troubleshooting,
Insecticides, Cleaners, &
Troubleshooting/Fixing, |
Number one all-time killer of aquatic livestock:
Stalled
establishment of bio-geo-chemical nutrient cycling... Microbial
wars... A need for "dynamic equilibrium"... yes, an oxymoron like
government competency... |
Tank crash-->starting over
05/19/09
Hello,
<Hello Dave>
Background:
I have a 140 gallon (6') tank with a 30 gallon sump/refugium. The tank
has approximately 60lbs of live rock with a shallow live sand substrate.
The
tank was up and running for two years with no problems until my
Strawberry Dottyback died and dis-appeared amongst the live rock.
Cyanobacteria
resulted, cleared this and hair algae and brown algae (diatoms?) covered
everything killing most corals. I have been fighting this for the past 6
months. The tank is presently recovering from the hair algae outbreak.
All live rock is presently removed and being recurred to eliminate the
nasty stuff. As a result I now have a cloudy tank (algae bloom?). My
prized 7" Regal Tang has just died (probably stressed by me constantly
cleaning this tank).
<Having no live rock in the tank at the moment could be part of the
problem. The live rock in a tank your size is likely doing most of the
denitrification.>
I believe my problem to be absorbed phosphates. I originally set-up the
system with normal tap water. I have now been using Osmosis water for
the
past 4 months changing 30 gallons weekly, scrubbing all rock and glass.
<Continue this, remove as much algae as possible from the tank, the
majority of your phosphate is likely in use by the algae. >
Unfortunately I even attempted using chemical additives which I believe
did more harm than good.
<Likely true.>
Hopefully recurring the live rock with some new pieces will eliminate
the issue. I will be adding a phosphate remover in the future along with
upgrading my skimmer.
<Both great ideas.>
My two questions:
Do you suggest any further action to allow my tank to recover?
<I would continue the cleaning, water changes with makeup water made
from RODI water, and nutrient export through skimmers, and removal of
excess macro algae in your refugium.>
After the tank has recovered, live rock has been added back and system
allowed to balance. I would like to add more reef safe fish. Presently I
have two paired Sebae Clown fish, Green Star Polyps, Xenia and a
Long-Tentacle Toadstool Leather Coral. I would like to add more coral &
an
anemone. What would you suggest if starting over: Corals that
appeal (lighting 96w power compact daylight, actinic &
moonlight): African Blue Coral Cespitularia sp., Colt Coral
<Colt coral is one of the more allelopathic corals commonly sold. Please
search WWM for the term "allelopathy" before purchasing.>
Leather Finger Coral Sinularia spp.
Colored Mushroom
Button polyps
Florida Rics
Digitata
Candy cane
Bubble Coral
Any suggestions?
<This sounds like an attractive mix. Most of these should be keepable
under 96w daylight power compacts.>
Brown Powder Tang
(2) Small regal tangs
<I would stick to one of the above tangs in this size tank.>
Bullet Gobies or Lawnmower Blennies
<Once again I would stick to one of the above blennies.>
Sixline Wrasse or Mandarin (after tank has re-matured)
Fox face
Coral Beauty
<Either the Foxface or coral beauty may end up with a taste for coral in
the future. But they would be fine in this size tank.>
Thanks in advance Dave
<Your welcome, and please continue down the path of recovery for the
tank, before adding any more livestock.
Josh Solomon>
Dead Fish, Recycling tank... env., SW 12/1/08
I have a
110 salt tank.
I use a cleaning company to keep the tank clean and
working properly. We replaced all the tank equipment, so everything is
new.
The last two cleanings within 24 hours all the fish have died.
<!>
It seems that when they are done cleaning the Nitrates go up to
50 and the nitrites go up to 30.
What could case this?
<What are
they cleaning and how is the tank set up. Are you using live rock? And
they replacing all the filter media and in the process removing all the
bio-filter? How heavily is the tank stocked and with what fish?
Something is causing the tank to go through another cycle.>
They said
that they bleach the coral. Could bleach do this to the water?
<If
they do not thoroughly rinse the coral then yes.>
We are at a loss
for why this keeps happening.
Charlie Drago
<My guess is it is
time to find a new maintenance company, having this happen twice is
unacceptable.>
<Chris>
Cloudy green water... SW, algal world, die-off... 7/31/08
I searched your site but didn't find anything that really relates to
my problem. I have a 55 gallon FOWLR tank (hoping to covert to a
reef tank) that has been running for about 2 months. I cycled it
with some new live rock and some from my old established tank.
Ammonia, nitrates, nitrites and phosphate are all at zero.
<Wow!>
PH is 8.4, salinity is 1.025 and calcium is 250.
<Mmm... a bit
low... and your alkalinity?>
Two nights ago I did a 10% water
change, cleaned the power heads and replaced the carbon filter. The
next morning the water was a cloudy green color. It appears to be
some sort of dissolved algae which, by the way I have a lot of in my
tank.
<Mmm... see below>
Red slime, hair, and lots of green.
You name it I've got it. I also add strontium, calcium and PhytoPlex
for my future corals.
<... I would not add the latter... for
future anything>
I've done tests twice since then with excellent
results but it keeps getting worse. Now I can barely see my fish
<?!>
(1 pink spotted goby and pistol shrimp pair, 2 false
percula, 1 orange tailed damsel, 1 royal Gramma, various hermit
crabs and snails and a peppermint shrimp, which don't seem to mind
it. But the day after the water change I tried to add a green
chromis and it was dead the next morning.
<Trouble, you betcha>
I'm totally stumped about this green water situation. Any
suggestions on what to do or what is happening would be great.
Thanks.
Jamie
<I suspect... as a good guess... that the listed
lack of available (by your measure) of basic chemical nutrients
(e.g. Nitrate, Phosphate), show these to have been limiting factors
in the growth of the stated algae (they were "scarfing it all
up")... along with calcium as a needed co-biomineral... With the
addition/change out of the carbon, the "scales were tipped" with a
massive die-off event of some of the algae occurring, this resulting
in a good deal of their death, dissolution... and consequent
coloring, poisoning of your system... For now, you need to do damage
control with restoring present water quality (likely through some
massive water changes)... going forward, you need to formulate a
plan to control algal proliferation... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/avoidingalgaeproblesm.htm
and the linked
files in-text and above... till you understand what you're up to,
against. Do write back re specifics if you have questions, doubts,
suggestions. Bob Fenner>
Re: cloudy green water 7/31/08
Thanks for getting back
to me. How much water do you suggest that I change and how often?
<... a bunch... see WWM re. B> |
Dying salt water fish 6/30/08
Let me start by saying we are
new at this whole salt water fish thing.
<Glad to hear it...a great
hobby to be involved with, welcome>
We bought a Yellow tang, clown
fish, a cardinal fish, goby, a scallop & 2 blue & yellow damsels ALL
have died & we do not know why.
<Mmm...special requirements for the
scallop, others aggressive, territorial, require large aquariums>
(The tank was set up for 2 weeks before the "big" fish were added)
<But was it cycled? Only water tests could have told...and this is a lot
of fish to add suddenly. Also, this implies you had 'small' fish in the
tank....read on wetwebmedia.com re fishless, humane, proper cycling>
First we noticed black dots on the tang which we did some research &
found out it was ich
<Not ich>
which we treated with "Clout". The
tang cleared up we thought all was good, replaced the filter,
<Between medicating and changing filter media, you have eliminated any
cycle you had. Water will become toxic...>
3 days later our goby
died, then the scallop, then yellow tang, then our clown fish & finally
our 2 damsels. The tang went from being really bright yellow to white
yellow spots in like 1 1/2 hours then started gasping for air & died in
about 2 hours. The clown fish all of a sudden got covered with this
white cotton looking stuff (we are assuming lymphocytes, but not for
sure)
<Not Lymphocystis....water mold or bacterial colonies>
&
died over night. Following the next day or so our cardinal fish had a
little fin rot then a bloody looking eye & died with in 2-4 hours. The
next day we noticed that the 2 blue damsel were becoming covered with a
"mucus" looking film over them & rapid breathing (which the clout also
said they treated) & they died.. I at this point with a 3 year old
crying over the fish dying, went & had our water tested, everything was
fine.
<Everything not fine...buy some fair to good quality water
tests (NOT dip-strip or similar) and recheck. I suspect ammonia and
nitrite poisoning as the culprit here.>
So I guess at this point we
are really lost in what is going on with our fish. If you could please
help.
<Give cycling and stocking, medicating, a good read on
wetwebmedia.com...I'll also put in a plug for Bob's book, The
Conscientious Marine Aquarist. I have a copy and it is a bible for reef
establishment>
Thank you for taking time in reading & helping us.
<Not a problem. With some research and a second try (based in this
research- patience is key!- you can have a splendid aquarium.>
John
& Shala Young
<Benjamin>
Saltwater die off... wipe-out syndrome f' 03/19/2008
Hello
Crew.
Since you've been so helpful in the past, I thought I'd try my
luck here with a problem plaguing a customer of mine.
A little over a
year ago, he set up a 110 gallon saltwater aquarium (6' tank).
Everything progressed fine through the cycle and the first fish until he
had a nicely stocked tank with some mushrooms and Zoanthids spreading
through the tank.
The tank itself has a shallow sand bed, about 50
lbs of live rock, fluorescent lighting, 2 Koralia 4 pumps (1200gph each)
and a Corallife Skimmer. The fish were fed a variety of foods, mostly
frozen ala Bob's recipe from CMA.
After almost a year of running
fine, he had a sudden die off of all but a couple of fish. He hadn't
been quarantining new additions, and I'm pretty sure it was a gill
parasite that got them.
After this episode he removed the remaining
fish to his newly set up quarantine tank and let the tank run fallow for
6 weeks. The last of the fish were replaced in the tank at this time,
with no signs of anything wrong with them through the entire 6 weeks.
This would have been November last year.
In the new year he started
adding new fish again. He'd buy 1-3 from me at a time, from the same
system, quarantine them for 2-4 weeks, then introduce them. All was
progressing quite well until about 4 weeks ago when over a two week
period, every fish died. I did a full range of tests on his water, and
everything was well within acceptable ranges. He does a 10 gallon water
change every week.
All of the inverts and corals are cruising along
as if nothing has happened. Following is a copy of his e-mail to me
describing what he found.
"James the only things i noticed with the
fish was that they were always going to the cleaner shrimp to be
cleaned, the trigger had a white dusting on it's body, they ate normally
till they died there was no scratching but the fish would all of a
sudden just bolt across the tank like they were startled. The first
thing I noticed was the fins started getting a white patch on them then
they would go whitish instead of staying clear and as it progressed the
fish would move up the water column and stay in the power head flow.
Once the fish were at the top of the water column it would be within a
day or 2 and they would be dead. This whole thing happened over at the
most 2 weeks. That's it aside from the Blenny acting nutty from the time
I got it."
All of the fish coming into my store get a medicated bath
(from Bobs article on this site), a freshwater dip, and copper treatment
if there is any sign of flashing at all. Fish from the same systems were
sold to many other clients and customers with one death out of all the
fish. The rest are still doing fine.
Any ideas on what could be the
culprit, be it a disease or something else? One of my customers
suggested stray current, but it's not something I have a lot of
knowledge on.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Regards,
James Foley
Thunder Bay Aquascapes
www.tbaquascapes.com
<This "sort" of circumstance I have logged
(along with others) in the category of "wipe out syndromes"... This poor
"catch all" term is unsatisfying in that it neither identifies root
cause/s, nor addresses probable cures... Nonetheless, I/we have
cataloged a few occasions, here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/toxicwipeoutf.htm
Most commonly, I'd guess
that these involve microbial origins... "something" gaining large enough
population size, some aspect, by-product of metabolism poisoning,
weakening other (macro) life... But, there might well be Protozoans
involved, perhaps simpler chemical series... At any length, the approach
to "solving" these syndromes has most often involved the scenario you
describe above... removing fish, perhaps other life, allowing the system
to run sans them... in the hope of lowering pathogenicity of the
causative agent/s... Another avenue to explore is enhancing the
"diversity" of a given mal-affected system (by adding mud, refugium,
ozone <a favorite>, spiffing up skimming, adding more/new live
rock...)... The last, desperate approach is to dump, nuke (chlorine
usually, though some folks use Formalin... toxic! Leave windows wide
open...) and rinse with freshwater, fill with fresh, rinse w/ fresh,
re-fill the tank with saltwater, re-cycle... I am sorry to be so vague
here... But this scenario cause/response is the best I know currently.
The choices again are: To do as this customer has with fallowing the
tank, adding more "diversity", and lastly, dumping/nuking... Bob Fenner>
Toxic marine tank 7/31/07
good
<The beginnings of
sentences...>
morning, I am asking this query on behalf of my
daughter she has been keeping one marine tank for about 18 months
with much success however yesterday she bought her usual 2 buckets
of fresh water and did all the tests. when
<Are capitalized...>
she got up this morning all her fish were dead she is devastated.
she has been to the shop with samples of her water and they said
everything was ok
<Let's say that everything they tested for they
considered okay>
she just had a toxic tank
<...?>
which
was unfortunate and said these things happen can you please give us
any information or your views on what can have happened and can she
avoid this in future. ( by the way her shrimps crabs etc. are ok)
kind regards Elizabeth Gabe
<Mmm... a bunch to discuss here...
Need info. re the set-up, history of this system; the livestock,
foods/feeding... Please have your daughter contact us, after reading
here: http://wetwebmedia.com/toxictk.htm
and the linked files
above. Bob Fenner>
Re: toxic marine tank – 07/30/07
Hi Thank you for your reply
I am afraid I can't give you all the details you asked for, she is
too upset to talk about it right now.
<I see... Well, best to
wait then... no rush... Leave all up and running as it is for now>
I will tell you what I can. The tank is 50 inches long 24 H 13 W She
only feeds once a day and that is frozen shrimp
<Mmm... again,
really need to know more for sure...>
I think ,I know it is
frozen cubes sold in a block and some liquid she calls snow
<The
Little Fishies product? This is worthless>
that is all that I am
aware of. The tests are always OK she is very meticulous about tests
and the moment any one is not 100% she takes a sample to the shop, I
also know that this is very rare. The tank is about 18 months old,
and the water change is done every 3 weeks or so. 2 buckets 25
litres each. The fish were Clowns 1.damsel 2 domino 1 puffer
<Yikes... an untenable mix...>
I do not know the kind of fish the
others are as she only calls them by name. altogether she had a
total of 10 fish, bearing in mind they were all small. She still has
about 3 shrimp and 2 crab and turbo snails. It is this( toxic tank
syndrome )that we do not understand is it a rarity. we still tend to
blame the water change.
Kindest regards Elizabeth
<Have her
read and write when things settle a bit. Cheers, BobF> |
Toxic Tank(s); Myth or Just Mystery? 8/8/07
Good
evening Bob & Crew,
I'm glad you're still here because my water
quality is not.
Where, oh where, has my water quality gone?
If
this helps, this is the story of a Butterfly in a 10gal. treatment
tank (for ich), and a Purple Tang in a 20gal. QT tank at the same
time.
Sorry about the length of this. I don't know how to keep
the nightmare short.
I was minding my own business, QT'ing my
Longnose Butterfly (Sponge Bob) in a 10gal. tank with an Eheim hang
on filter, heater, LR and Sand (tank was four months old, already
housed 4 fish for QT for my 72gal. display) when this fish came down
with signs of ich after about two weeks.
Water quality was
stable in this tank from the beginning and throughout this entire
period (Temp 76-78, SG 1.021,
<Too low>
PH 8.0-8.2, Ammonia 0,
Nitrites 0, Nitrates 0), including an additional week after I
noticed the symptoms while I educated myself on my options. Fish was
still behaving fine and eating Frozen Mysis. The fish never had
spots on his body, only a few on its tail and one fin.
With the
help of your FAQ's and advice from the Crew, I moved him to a new
10gal. with no LR or Sand, raised the temp to 80-81deg., lowered the
SG to about 1.019, and set up the tank as a treatment tank with a 4"
PVC T-Pipe only for a hideout.
Removed a Carbon filter that I
didn't know had carbon in it after a week of testing Copper content
at zero (duh! - thanks Bob) and then, finally, treated effectively
with Cupramine following all directions for about the first of the
two weeks while the copper tests were reading what they should be
with a new test kit and no carbon filter (.4-.5). Spots were
disappearing. Everything "seemed" as if it was finally going well.
While all this is going on, I had to purchase a 20 gal. tank and
equipment to QT my Purple Tang that had just arrived at my LFS after
a four week wait. Ran 20gal. for a couple of days first and
everything was testing ok (as above).
I special ordered this
Tang and had to take it. (Side Note: can you believe $200.00 was the
cheapest I could get one?
<Yikes! Where are you?>
Another
branch of same LFS chain wanted $500.00 for one they had in the
store!?)
Butterfly was originally scheduled to be in the display
tank by the time the Tang arrived - ya right!
During the second
week of Butterfly treatment in the newly stripped treatment tank, I
was checking water conditions in the Tang's 20gal. QT tank (no
treatment) and was horrified to find that the readings were off the
map for ammonia! (Yes... Maxed out)
I didn't test anything else.
I set a new land speed record on a panic 75% water change (which
completely freaked out the fish) and it was still testing positive
for ammonia, although less so (about 1.0). I did another 50% water
change with some water I had just mixed. Still testing positive but
less than .25 on the "not very accurate" color chart.
While I
was scratching my head and pulling my hair out over this, it came to
me that I should test the Butterfly's tank just in case. I had only
tested for copper for about the last week and he didn't eat the day
before. Readings were elevated across the board! I had read that you
might get artificially elevated readings for ammonia, but not
nitrites (off the chart) and nitrates (approx. 40).
I decided
that newly mixed water can't possibly be as bad as this and was
mixing and changing as fast as I could to do one 90% water change
followed by a 50% water change and I was out of salt, and energy.
I did check my source water and it tested negative for Ammonia,
Nitrites and Nitrates.
I picked up more salt and some Ammo Lock
on the way home from work the next day and did more water changes
with Ammo Lock over the next few days until the readings were
"barely" registering by color.
I added ZOE to the Butterfly's
treated water because he wasn't eating. Things in both tanks finally
seemed to be getting back to "almost" normal. The Butterfly started
"nibbling", but not for long.
Believe me when I tell you that in
the middle of all this, I was on the verge of just packing it all
in. I was looking for a huge sewer! Looking after my four month old
72 display with fish and corals (which is fine through this whole
ordeal, somehow?), trying to treat this Butterfly (readjusting
Copper treatment after each water change), trying to watch my new
Tang, trying to figure out why my two tanks went toxic (by the way,
I did remove uneaten food in the Butterfly's tank when he wasn't
eating, but maybe not fast enough - sometimes I waited until the
next day, but we're talking about very little food, and this doesn't
explain the Tang's tank - he ate Mysis and Spectrum Pellets like a
machine)
Oh, and did I mention that I had another 10gal. housing
the invertebrates that I had to separate from the Butterfly to treat
it? What did I get myself into? Whatever it was, it was way too much
for a rookie.
<Take your time...>
Now if this wasn't bad
enough, at the end of that week when it was time to remove the
copper treatment (two weeks and spots not visible), the Butterfly
wasn't eating again. Before I was going to do another partial water
change and replace the carbon filter, I noticed that now that my
Tang looked grey and was not well at all. I immediately tested the
water and found Ammonia at approx. 0.25 but the Nitrates were off
the chart and that's where I stopped testing. He had been in QT for
just over two weeks and this was the second time this had happened.
He never had any signs of ich, or anything else visible, so, not
having any better ideas, I (GULP!) basically threw him in my display
tank. A move I hope I don't regret. Within an hour his colour was
80% better and he was swimming around starting to establish himself
in the tank to my Coral Beauty's dismay, and now the Hawk has two
bosses.
Of course, the Butterfly's tank is now testing badly
again, too. Ammonia approx. 0.25, Nitrites off the chart and
Nitrates about 20. (Please forgive the approximates. These were
mostly panic measurements. The tests were performed properly, but
the recording and exact timeline were not)
I placed him in the
now vacant 20gal. after I did more emergency water changes on that
one, and by last night, things were, again, back to barely reading
any signs of trouble.
Now I'm figuring that I will do a 25%
water change every day for the duration of his stay in there not to
take any chances. When I siphoned out 5gals. of water tonight, he
just fell on his side on the bottom of the tank and started laboured
breathing. Now what? I immediately tested again and after one day,
the Nitrites were back up to 0.5 from barely noticeable last night.
I retested my mixed water that I was going to use for the change
(conditioned tap water, Instant Ocean Salt, SG still low for the
Butterfly at about 1.020, temp at about 80deg., mixing for about
20hrs with a Maxijet 400 Powerhead) and it tested ZERO for Ammonia,
Nitrites, and Nitrates. This time, again for lack of a better idea,
I basically threw the Butterfly into the 5gal. pail with the
Powerhead. He immediately started to swim against the mild
circulation from the powerhead and is still doing so. That was about
two hours ago. (Is this 400 Powerhead too much with this fish in the
5gal. pail? I don't want to work the fish to death swimming since he
hasn't been eating. I originally had a 600 in there but it
definitely looked like too much)
Forgive me if the information is
not expertly laid out, but I'm so rattled at this point, I can
barely keep my story, or my eyes, straight.
<Am... a bit lost
here re your intent... Quarantine does not entail having no
bio-filtration...?>
I can not, for the life of me (and my fish),
figure out what is going on here. It's as if these two tanks were
cycling, but both tanks are completely bare save for the pre-washed
& well rinsed PVC Pipe in each tank.
Can waste from one fish and
some sponge in a filter kick off this type of cycling activity in a
completely bare tank?
<Mmm, yes... the cycling microbes can/will
live in the water, on the glass... can just as easily be
supplanted...>
When I started my first 10gal. QT tank with 10lbs.
pre-cured LR and sand, I never saw any readings like this and I ran
that tank for months and QT'd four fish without any readings, or
problem at all.
I've been through more salt water on these two
tanks in the last few weeks than I think I've ever used on my 72
changing 10gals about every two weeks.
Right now, the 72 and
everyone in it (knock-knock) seems to be doing well as far as I can
tell, (although obviously I am no expert), the Tang seems to be
doing quite well in the display. His colour looks much better. He is
not overly active. He hides from people still, but otherwise swims
around quietly picking at the rock and exploring the tank. I'll keep
my eyes open and my fingers crossed with this guy.
The Butterfly,
as mentioned, has taken up residence IN his "water change" bucket
with water testing fine, for now.
Do you have any idea what can
make a bare tank (or two) go downhill so quickly?
<All sorts>
I use the same water, procedures, etc. on my 72 gal. and have NEVER
had anything like this show up.
If these fish somehow, by some
miracle, survive two rounds of this punishment, I will rename them
Guinness and Ripley's.
If they don't, then I will of course feel
very badly that this happened while they were in my care.
Any
light you can shed on this one will be greatly appreciated.
And
again, sorry about the length.
Mike
<Without much
stability... from system size, diversity, buffering mechanisms,
differing micro-organism groups can rapidly populate, their
by-products seemingly poison a "bare" system. BobF>
Re: Toxic Tank(s); Myth or Just Mystery? 8/9/07
Dear Bob& Crew
Thank you for your prompt reply.
Unfortunately,
even with enough water changes to fill a swimming pool over the last
couple of weeks, this Butterfly did not make it. Very sad.
I
managed to save the Tang by putting him in the 72gal. display, but I
could not risk putting the Butterfly in there after only two weeks
of treatment for ich, even though he "appeared" to be symptom free.
He had not been two weeks untreated without symptoms and I did not
think it was wise or fair to expose the display tank livestock to
this risk.
If I understand correctly, either this fish failed to
survive a bare tank that was going through an unexpected (by me)
cycling process, or this tank was being poisoned by the by-products
of rapidly populating micro-organisms, and in either case, three or
four water changes a week of at least 50% were not sufficient to
ward off the ill effects.
<I am in agreement>
The original QT
tank that I set up with cured LR and sand never showed any signs of
cycling, like my 72gal. did with the uncured LR, and I did not
expect this with a bare tank.
Unlike my Butterfly, I live and
learn.
Even though it was recommended that I discontinue QT'ing
with LR and sand because fish can pick things up on their fins from
either and it can be tough to distinguish these from ich spots, I
will put LR and sand back in the 20gal., wait a couple/few weeks to
see if it will cycle/stabilize before trying this again. This is
what worked for all the other fish.
<Good>
Well, at least the
panic is over and I have the advantage of time again on my side.
Thank you
Mike
<Thank you for sharing... Your comments will
save many other animals, and hobbyists grief. BobF> |
Starting over, poisoned tank 12/4/06
Hello WWM,
<Greetings to you! Mich here.>
I had a marine reef tank
for almost two years and suddenly everything went haywire and almost
everything is dead. <Hmm...not good.> To rid myself of whatever
poisoned my community, and to start over, should I boil each piece of
live rock to make sure that nothing is left (thus making it dead rock,
ha ha, ugh), boil all the filters, in short, boil everything so that it
is all sterile? <All depends on what exactly happened.> This has been
a horrible weekend. <I'm sorry to hear of your troubles.> How should I
start over with all the material and equipment that I have? <Boiling
seems a little radical to me. It would sterilize your equipment and
should kill the life in your rock, but really only eliminates some of
the biologically based problems. It will not address toxicological,
chemical, or environmental issues that could be affecting you system,
which could potentially be helped by the biological filtration that has
already been established. I would recommend trying to figure what
happened. Is this a disease issue? a contamination issue? a
toxicological issue? An environmental or temperature issue? Have you
tested your water chemistry? Did everything decline rapidly or
slowly? What was lost vertebrates, invertebrates, corals or
vegetation? Many possibilities here.
Thanks, <You are welcome.>
abra
Hydrogen Sulfide - 01/01/2006
Happy new year to you all,
<And to you Will.>
This weekend I had the pleasure of stripping
down my 60 (UK) gal marine tank for the 2nd time, what a way to end
the year but with a nice slow leak...? Anyway all the rocks corals
fish etc. are in a nice spare tank set up with heater, filter,
skimmer, and sand is in a vat with water and a powerhead. However my
sandbed seems to have been producing hydrogen sulfide instead of
nitrogen, kind of lucky the tank leaked in retrospect. The sandbed
is about 4 inches deep I should imagine, maybe a little under, I
have a bout 240lph of flow through the tank <excluding skimmer>.
What's causing the hydrogen sulphide? Bed too shallow? Not enough
flow? Wrong bacteria proliferating?
<Anaerobiosis, organic build
up. Flow must be leaving dead areas.>
And other than the smell
what effects does this substance have? Suppressed pH or is it
actually toxic?
<Hmm....Being from lack of oxygen, the pH would
be depressed, could have a random "die off" of all livestock.>
FWIW soon I shall be upgrading from a Prizm skimmer to a v2skim 400,
will this help problems, the Prizm never really does much <other
than irritate the family with it's gurgling and bubbling>
<Will
likely help as will better flow. Good surface turbulence will help
gas exchange.>
Thank you in advance,
Will
<You're
welcome. - Josh.>
Re: Hydrogen Sulfide - 01/02/2006
Thank you,
<You're welcome Will.>
With regards to flow I
shall put the 2 800lph pumps at each end and I have a 900lph which I
shall put in the middle, I was thinking of placing in the middle of
the tank with a powerhead aiming through the rocks, would this be a
good idea?
<Hmm...You've kind of lost me here. Are these new
pumps? These weren't listed earlier. At any rate, I would direct the
two 800 pumps slightly downward from opposite ends (so they converge
in the middle. The 900, I would mount high on either side of the
back wall angled slightly upward and across the tank diagonally
(enough to push the surface up about a 1/2 inch). The current will
form a slight arch, coming down in random locations because of the
surface turbulence.>
Should I point the two 800's at the front
glass or just through the tank aimed slightly at the surface?
<I
would just aim them at each other, toward the rock.>
Thank you
again
Will
<My pleasure. - Josh> |
- Ammonia Spike, Help! -
Good Morning - thanks in advance for
your help.
History of tank: been up for 5 months
45 gals
75lbs
live rock
20 lbs live sand
2 powerheads 201 & 301
Amiracle SL-5
Hippo Tang
Six Line Wrasse
15 - 20 % water changes every 2 weeks
using a water tap purifier. Test water- no ammonia)
While I was away
last week , some of the snails in the tank starting dying - When I got
home all snails dead - 2 hammer corals dead - star polyp, spaghetti
coral looking real bad. Ammonia levels super high as high as 70.
<Egads!>
Did a 15 gallon water change immediately. Later in the day
cleaner shrimp died, still ammonia level high. Did another 5 gallon
water change that night. Next morning all corals dead - ammonia level
still high. Removed all dead coral, moved live rock around found some
more dead snails and removed them. Did another 15 gallon water change,
and last night a 5 gallon change All that is left in the tank is the
Hippo Tang, six line Wrasse, Sally light foot crab, and about 5 red &
blue crabs.
Ammonia - 60
Nitrates- 40
Nitrites - 0
Salinity
- 1.025
Temp - 77
ph - 8.0
What can I do to save what is left
in the tank? <Larger water changes - if your ammonia level is 70 and you
change half of the water, that's only going to reduce the ammonia by
half... need to do several of these in a row.>
And also what should I
do to prevent this in the future - my daughter and I want to make sure
we do not endanger the livestock again. <Don't load up on the snails...
only two or three in a tank of this size - no doubt that problem
triggered the next into a domino-type reaction. Likely the ammonia is
the result of the die-off. Large [more than 50%] water changes are your
friend.>
RT
<Cheers, J -- > Unexplained Fish Deaths?
Bob,
I think I have some unexplained fish deaths. This is a new tank
but I'm not too sure the deaths are related to cycle. I set up a 20g
with R/O water, crushed shell substrate, one pc of live rock, two
Damsels, a Penguin power filter, and a power head. I didn't even test
the first week, but for the following three weeks everything tested
zero.
<Maybe the system cycled... maybe not...>
After week four I
added another live rock, some snails and hermits and within 48 hrs both
Damsels were dead.
<Might be the original non-cycle period... or an
easily understood "recycling" event from the new tank, new piece of live
rock>
Even though everything tested zero I chalked this up as tank
cycle. The following week I added another live rock that had a Purple
Anemone attached to it.
<Not a good move... I'm sure we're going to
come to understand... Anemones are sometimes used this way... generally
die, pollute, poison the water... necessitating complete breakdowns>
Everything still tested zero at week six so I started the protein
skimmer added yet another live rock and a Tomato Clown that has now died
within 48 hrs. I tested the water and the Ammonia is at .25 and Nitrite
.25 everything else seems o.k.
<Except the dead and dying livestock,
and organisms in/on the live rock...>
I just can't believe this would
be enough to kill the clown.
<Easily>
The damsels died with
everything at zero
<Everything you could measure... attention is
narrowed perception my friend>
so I'm wondering if something else
could be going on. Could that rock at week four have carried along some
kind of parasite that has killed all these fish?
<Doubtful>
If so
how would I find out without the sacrifice of another fish?
<No need
to do this either... Very likely the following scenario is what
happened, is happening... With the introduction of successive "pieces"
of live rock in a new, highly unstable system, subsequent "cycling's"
are occurring with some of the rock's inhabitants contributing some
toxic products... Just "wait" a good three, four weeks w/o putting in
any more "pieces" and all will/should be fine>
Thanks for you help,
John
<You're welcome. Bob Fenner> Lost all my fish
I have a 150 tank for about 6 months with fish and live rocks along with
a Lifereef wet dry and protein skimmer. Recently I purchased some live
rocks from a pet store that was closing, that is when my problem
started. MY fishes started to die one by one. No apparent symptom except
before they expires completely there are a white film that develop on
their body. Do I need to tear down my tank or is there something else I
can do before adding new fish? Water quality is good, 0 ammonia, 0
nitrite, 0 nitrate. I'm suspecting a bacterial infection, can I add
antibiotic without harming my live rocks.
>>
This is very bad
news... and I would take the system down... at least to the point of
emptying all the water out, refilling it with just freshwater... (yes,
and hence killing off a bunch of the organisms that are live rock, live
sand)... for a day, and then refilling it with pre-made seawater...
Whatever the real cause of your "toxic tank syndrome" (biological,
disease, rot from the new live rock...), this is about the only approach
I'd consider...
Alternatively, and if the above doesn't work, I
would consider "nuking" the present set up (with bleach... cleaning the
whole thing out, using the present "live" rock as base... and placing
some new on top of it...
Bob "bearer of bad but useful news" Fenner
Contamination Problem
Last week I wrote you stating I had a major
problem with my system of not being able to keep my new stock for over 3
days. You stated that it might be a contamination problem or possible a
lack of circulation. Well that same night I changed 20% of the water and
vacuumed my substrate. I noticed a black film on some of the rock I had
at the bottom of tank. It had a bad order to it (like sewage) and
appeared to be almost painted on the rock. I thought this might be a
lack of circulation like you suggested, so I ran out and got a power
head to move my water around more aggressively and removed the
questionable rock. Some days later I bought a flame angle, percula
clown, and a yellow tang. All were doing very well for 4 days then I
noticed that the angle and clown had slime coating or skin coming off of
them looks like when you have sun burn and your skin peels). Then 1-2
days later I noticed some very small white spots on the tang, angle, and
the clown. Looked like ich, so I added green x to the system. I have
some live rock and inverts)
<Argghhh, this material (Greenex( is very
harsh... and you should have at least freshwater dipped the new
fishes... Please read over the "Acclimation" and "Dips/Baths" sections
of the Marine Index on our website: www.WetWebMedia.com>
The next day
the angle and clown died appears that no ich was on them only the dead
skin that I described. I did another slight water change and stopped
treatment . what is going on!!!! am I a victim of some sort of voodoo
curse, or is everyone lying to me saying that a salt system is not that
hard to keep??? please help. I had nothing but stress and loss of funds
with my system.. your my only hope.
<Please don't give up... let's
let the system alone for a few weeks and chat over trying some other
tacks (added lighting, more live rock) and some very hardy types of
damsels to try again... Please also read over the "Toxic Tank
Situations" section on the WWM site: Bob Fenner> Re: Disaster!!
III
Hello again, well, let me update everyone on what's been
happening. The blenny is not a happy camper in the q-tank. He's all
funny striped, almost white at the tail. He seems to be swimming around
but he won't eat.
<I recall that the copper was tested at .40 at one
point. This level is long past deadly for many marine fishes>
I'm so
confused with this whole q-tank business. Originally we had the filter
(over the side kind) soaking in the sump of the main tank while it was
cycling.
<there's part of the problem... a sponge sitting in the sump
will develop a little biological activity (mostly on the exterior) but
needs to have water forced through it to maximize colonization. Much
better to simply run the sponge in the filter as it will run on the QT>
Then we put it in the q tank when we put the blenny in there. We also
put a sponge filter in the q tank (it had not be in the sump previously)
We cannot get the ammonia down. It was 1.0 on Sunday so we did a 50%
water change and now today it's 1.0 again. Not sure what to do.
<daily water changes until the filter establishes...again, could be
weeks>
I changed the filter today to just a plain one that has not
been in the sump of the main tank.
<I'm not sure why... all new
media will set you back further. You simply need seeded/aged filter
media... some patience>
And we're planning on doing another 50%
change tonight.
<excellent>
We have a r/o unit that we use to
make the water. Or should we put water from the main tank into the q
tank instead of new water??
<new water please for water changes (aged
water was initially for the transfer gently of the display fish).
Remember to aerate RO water for 12 hrs or more first, then
buffer/reconstitute and mix for another 6 or more hours. Raw RO water is
dangerous as it is too pure (low pH/hardness, high carbonic acid, etc)>
Any input you can give us would be great. On a happier note the blue
tang is doing good. He's starting to eat although he still hides a lot
and likes to hang out in the corner, but he did eat today. So, things
are looking up. We just need to watch for ich now I guess.
<exactly... but we will hope for the best>
One more question. I
noticed that when our sand sifting star came up out of the sand the
other day that the clowns went nuts. I looked closely and saw a ton of
little bug like things crawling all over the sand and as I looked
closely I saw these bug like things all over the rocks and everything.
The clowns were eating them all up like crazy. I'm assuming that these
are just copepods and amphipods right??
<correct>
Nothing
dangerous??
<very beneficial... I wish we could culture them by the
pound>
I see them scurrying all around the tank. They are tiny though
and don't have a claw like a mantis shrimp.
One last question. My
husband wants me to ask, would you recommend vacuuming the substrate??
We only have small grained sand. We can see air bubbles stuck in there
though. We're hesitant to suck it up due to fear of sucking up all of
the sand. What do you recommend?
<course sand needs to be agitated
and sometimes siphoned regularly... fine sand generally needs little
help. If you want to experiment, you could try stirring the sand... but
I don't bother myself>
Thanks for letting me pick your brain again.
Katie and John Michael
<many jokes here <smile>. Anthony>
Milky Tank
Hi Bob, Love your column!
Yesterday I did my
routine water tests, about 1 week from the regular water change.
Ammonia, Nitrite, were unreadable, pH 8.2, and Nitrate 10ppm. That was
about 10:00 pm. This morning at 8:00 am my tank looked like a huge
glass of milk!
In a HUGE panic, I immediately did 3 consecutive 25%
water changes. ( empty, refill, empty, refill, etc.) Trying to "fix" it
without dramatic shock if that's even possible. Retesting at that time
reveals the exact same results as last night, Nitrate still 10ppm, so it
must have been incredibly higher before the panic water change.
The
tank visibility is improved, but still very cloudy. Any idea of
what happened, How to prevent it in the future, and how to clear the
water????
The tank has been successfully running for over 2 years.
Additions to the tank in the past month: 1 green brittle star, 1 long
spined sea urchin, 1 arrow crab. Capacity: 75 Gallons. Other
inhabitants: 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 boxing shrimp, 5 hermit crabs, 1
blue/yellow damsel, 1 Clarkii clown, 1 checkered goby, 1 Banggai
cardinal, 1 bubble tip anemone, 1 carpet anemone, and a full compliment
of live rock.
Filtration: 1 canister filter rated at 350 gph, 1
protein skimmer . Water changes at 1 month intervals (25-30%) Nitrates
generally run between 5 and 15 ppm.
All of the inhabitants are
accounted for except the clown, I haven't seen her yet.
Thanks
in advance for your input! Lisa
<Thank you for writing, and the
mystery. Gosh, all sounds like a good set-up and maintenance regimen...
except the "white out"... Let's see, because most all the livestock that
might contribute to the condition seem to be okay.... at least they
didn't just dissolve and make the water change color... And of the
livestock list, nothing jumps out as "reproductive products" as a
cause... I'm inclined to speculate (is this vague or what? Maybe there
is a career for me in politics!) that "something" went awry in your live
rock and/or substrate to render the observed effect (it may have been a
microbial explosion, or "wipe out").
The very good news is you're
observant, intelligent and diligent... and as a consequence of having a
good set-up and healthy livestock to start with, you will likely not
have problems going forward. In other words, you did about what I would
do at least, given the same conditions/circumstances. Oh, and how to
"clear the water" (read the input Bob)... I would utilize a pre-packaged
unit or two of activated carbon and resin... like Chemipure in your
filter flow path. Bob Fenner>
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