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Cook Islands; collectors in the trade
3/7/17 Mauritius guy need your help 11/22/09 Marine Aquarium Industry Dear Mr. Fenner, <Hello>
Thanks for providing such a remarkable site for the marine hobbyist.
<A pleasure my friend> I have developed a passion for this hobby
and would like to get into the Marine Aquarium Business. <Ah,
good> I perused Walt Smith's website and the whole idea of doing
what you love most just materializes in his Fiji station. <Yes>
Since he has already "conquered" that part of the world,
could you recommend another suitable site to start my little project. I
know this is a packed question...read on) :) I was thinking Pulau
Tioman, Kapas, Harimau or any of the islands on the East Coast of
Malaysia. I have seen pictures at WWM taken at Pulau Redang so I am
guessing you've traversed these islands. Are the species of
fish/inverts/coral/rock from that part of the world in good demand?
<Indeed they are> Which brings to mind, on one of my trips to
M'sia, I caught a juvenile Chelmon Rostratus with my bare hands
along the East Coast of M'sia (Port Dickson), some 100 km from
Kuala Lumpur. I always thought that these species only existed in the
Indian Ocean and around Australia. <No... wider spread> Do offer
some advice or please point me in the right direction. <What would
you like to know? Can you grant me insight into your background
(business, technical, industry related...) and aspirations? Have you
lived in Malaysia? Familiar with their laws, customs? Do you have time
to visit similar operations?> Thanks in advance and "be
chatting"! :) Best, Mimi Eliza <Welcome to our trade. Bob
Fenner> MACNA Dear Bob, It was my fault that we missed each other. I could not make it to any of the talks as I was on call throughout the weekend. However, I managed to squeeze in some time one Friday and Sunday and got a chance to speak with Walt who was not too optimistic about Indonesia and Philippines. Also bought a book from your wife. I asked her if you were there and she said that you were "floating around" somewhere. And I have not seen you before so we could have crossed paths. Nevertheless, I will surely make a trip to CA to meet up with you and the rest of the folk. Walt also mentioned that the Indian government has invited him over to start a coral aquaculture. <Yes... there was a nice article in the L.A. Times re Walt yesterday... and the coral business> He mentioned South India. Says that he is trying to make an agreement with the Indian govt. whereby for every coral he traded, he would grow and replace three in the wild. I leave for Malaysia in couple of weeks. Will try and find loopholes in the system which will enable me to commence with my business. Will also scope out other regions from Kuala Lumpur. Wish me luck! Best, Bala <I do wish you good fortune. Be chatting, Bob Fenner> Re: Collection Station in Vanuatu Dear Bob, Walt suggests PNG, Tuvalu and "Kiribus". If I chose to scope out Tuvalu, it would be from Fiji and that will give me the opportunity to visit Walt's Collection Station. I may kill 2 birds with one stone. <Would look into these sites and definitely visit in Fiji> Am very excited. Any thoughts, comments and concerns are greatly appreciated. Best, Bala PS: Yes, I will be at MACNA. My trip to NJ was postponed. <I was there all weekend... how did we manage to miss each other? Walt and Deb said they met you. Bob F> Re: Collection Station Dear Bob, Wow, I have a new nick name for you that goes well with your incessant replies : Quick Draw McGraw! <When in town... a reflex defensive mechanism... if we don't respond ASAP we get buried, forgetful, behind> YES, THE FEELING IS MUTUAL ON WALT'S INPUT. THANKS FOR THE INVITATION. BUT MY UPCOMING TRIP WILL BE TO SCOPE OUT POTENTIAL SITES. ALTHOUGH IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT I GET A FEEL OF AN ESTABLISHED COLLECTION STATION. <Yes, very important... the best use of your time, invaluable experience> HMMM, YOU MUST MEAN ABU SAYAF AND CO HARASSING THOSE PARTS OF INDONESIA RIGHT? YES, THERE HAS BEEN POLITICAL UNREST QUITE RECENTLY. AND ONE THAT IS RELIGIOUS AND RACIAL IN NATURE. THEY HAVE BEEN SLAUGHTERING THE CHINESE WHO ARE THE DOMINANT BUSINESS COMMUNITY IN INDO. QUITE SIMILAR TO HOW THE GERMANS FELT ABOUT THE JEWS. <I see> BALI LOOKS INTERESTING. <A beautiful country within one in turmoil in places> I DO RESEMBLE A TYPICAL MALAYSIAN AND AM CONFIDENT THAT I WILL BLEND IN EASILY WITH THE INDONS. ACTUALLY, I COULD EASILY PASS OFF AS AN INDON. YOU WERE REFERRING TO MY "INTRINSIC" NATURE WHEN YOU COMMENTED ON FOOD PREFERENCES, TOLERANCE TO HARDSHIP ETC. WHY? I HAVE SEEN HARDSHIP IN MY TIME. <Oh, a note, query re your personal preferences.... some folks can/will give up fast food et al., but miss their CNN... in many places that pet-fish are collected, there are a lack of many modern conveniences and luxuries.> I ALSO HAVE CLOSE INDON FRIENDS THAT I CAN PARTNER UP WITH. CHECKED OUT THE INDON CHAMBER OF COMMERCE. THERE IS A REQUIREMENT TO GIVE 5% OWNERSHIP TO A LOCAL. <Good> IN REGARDS TO PERSONAL Q'S: PLEASE FEEL FREE TO "INTERROGATE" ME. MY MOTHER IS ROMAN CATHOLIC AND MY FATHER IS HINDU. ME, ...SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE.>> <Okay... good to be flexible, tolerant here> I DID CONTACT A COMPANY IN INDIA (MALABAR AQUARIUM, CALCUTTA). THE CHAP TOLD ME THAT THEY "DID NOT HAVE THE NECESSARY INFRASTRUCTURE TO HANDLE MARINE LIVESTOCK." IF INDIA WAS MY CHOICE, IT WOULD PROBABLY BE ON THE SOUTHERN TIP, IN KERALA (TRIVANDRUM). ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT RESEARCHED THE INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITIES THOUGROUGHLY. <Much to do> REGARDING CITES...I HAD TALKED TO C.V.EXOTIC AQUARIUM IN JAKARTA, THE KIND LADY WHO IS THE OWNER, TOLD ME THAT THE CITES DOCS THERE COSTS $200 FOR <=500 PIECES OF CORAL AND IT TAKES SEVERAL WEEKS TO PROCESS. ON THE RECEIVING END, MY RESEARCH TELLS ME IT'S $25 FOR THOSE QUANTITIES. ANOTHER INTERESTING FINDING WITH EXOTIC IS THAT THEIR SUBSIDIARY IN BALI HAS SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH AN AMERICAN CO. GIVING THE FORMER EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO THEIR LIVESTOCK. <"The job's not finished till the paperwork is done"> IT'S "BAHASA" AND NOT "DAHASA", WHICH TRANSLATE TO "LANGUAGE". <Thank you> SINCERELY APOLOGIZE FOR BLURTING MY DOUBTS ABOUT WALT AND HIS ROLE IN THE TRADE. <No worries my friend. You are welcome to your skepticisms... a healthy trait> THEREFORE, GIVEN THE INFO, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ? <Re?> Sorry for writing with the caps on. Was trying to write in between your replies so as not to miss out on the pertinent facts but it got too cluttered. <Okay> Awaiting your reply. Best, Bala <More research, visiting in order. If you're coming out to California (south), make this known. Perhaps I can take you about to people in the trade (Los Angeles mainly) who can be of service to you. Bob Fenner> Collection Stations Dear Bob, How do you do? <Fine, thank you> Thanks for introducing me to Walt. The email he sent me came with a negative tone. Nevertheless, I am still intent on getting on with the business, only in a different region. <Am thankful for Walt's input... may seem odd (as you don't know me, likely Walt), but I invite you to tour about, visit his, other facilities with us (dive and industry friends, associates) as we get about quite a bit> I had asked his advice on other regions I can scope out. And now, I turn to you again: Would you recommend Indonesia, Maldives or India? <So many "other" important factors to know re you (food preferences, tolerance to risks of different sorts, endurance to hardships...) to make a "A,B,C" list... Indonesia is fabulous all the way about... the world's biggest diversity, tremendous abundance, ready flights to major cities... but is having some real troubles for now (I was in N. Sulawesi last week). The Maldives have a couple of collecting stations that I'm aware of... and the country is "closed" in many ways to new ones (I will leave off with stmt.s, queries re your religious backgd. as it is none of my business, but this is a very important factor here). India might be a good opportunity... where there?> I know there aren't any restrictions in Indonesia at this point. <Actually... CITES on their and receiving countries ends, and many of the latter re Indo. (see various folks re W. European countries importing from there)> It would also be advantageous for me as I do speak the language and it is a neighbor to my home country besides the favourable exchange rate. <Good points for sure... wish I spoke Dahasa> On another note, I am also a potential competitor of Walt Smith. I hate to think that he is "nipping the problem in the bud" with my case. Please advice. Best, Bala <I assure you, this is a minor possibility, influence. Walt, myself, many others who have "lived the industry", are absolutely in earnest in wanting to aid people to become "good competitors"... the not-so-good ones are of no use, benefit to anyone... consumers, the industry, environment... think on this. We have "been around" for the decades this field has existed and will gladly help people... as their success, cooperation is our own. Bob Fenner, driving out to the hobby conf. which is MACNA. Be seeing you.> Re: Collection Station in Vanuatu Dear Bala, I am not positive but I believe that all of the coral quota is used up by the present suppliers in Indonesia. In fact, some of the shippers who now only ship fish are in a queue waiting for their turn to be allocated a portion of the CITES. quota and have been waiting for several years. <Bingo> Indonesia would be my last choice to start this business as everybody and their brother is shipping from there and the present imports are very common/boring and it would be difficult at best to break into this market with something everyone else already has. Sorry if all of this seems like bad news for you but it is an honest assessment of the state of our industry at the moment. You really need to look for areas that are not being exploited at the moment to come up with items that are new to the industry. Those rich, experienced, connected boys in Indo would chew you up and spit you out. I still suggest New Caledonia, PNG, or perhaps Kiribati, or Tuvalu. In the last two you would need to ship to me in Fiji because of the airline situation with no direct flights. I will be out of town after this (Dallas) and then Chicago so good luck in your quest. I hope you take my advise as a short cut to avoiding a massive financial mistake. Cheers, Walt <Thanks for cc'ing me Walt. Oh, Bala is going to be at MACNA too I believe. See you both there. Bob F> Re: Collection Station in Vanuatu <Thanks much for your valuable input Walt. Nothing like folks actually duking it out trying to make a dollar to add weight to valid points. Bob Fenner> Dear Bala, In response to your inquiries about setting up a station in Vanuatu I would hesitate and check a little further. The environmentalist groups are starting to become very vocal there and the existing businesses do not have the support they need to battle the pending shut down. Even IMA is a joke as they openly oppose our trade on the front lines and say otherwise at conferences to gain support/dollars from groups willing to donate to a good cause. I have had a business in Vanuatu for two years and lost plenty of $$ and time while the locals just ripped me off every chance they got. In short, I would advise against it and the climate for this type of business is very risky at this time. If this were not true I would still be operating out of there today. Also, species diversity is very low or similar to already over-exploited fish and corals from other areas. The Flame Angel is the big fish there but the other countries exporting them have already ruined the profit for this item by over-competing and driving the price down so low it is not worth it. Case in point, I have a chance to get 500+ Flames per week (from north of me) but don't want them because of the destroyed market. New Caledonia is really only the last frontier but you must be French or have a partner that will only rip you off. I have learned my lessons living in the region for the past 14 years and the most valuable lesson I can pass on is this: If you do not have heaps of experience in this business (I had 17 years as a wholesaler) before moving here and dealing with all of the local issues not to mention market knowledge and experience you will probably not survive the trials. This has become a very difficult business to reach any level of success and I truly consider myself extremely fortunate to have survived. The profit is not the same as it used to be and the whole world is out to give you a hard time environmentally. However, if you decide that you are as crazy as I am then you might want to contact me with your final plans and I might be interested in buying your product direct into Fiji which would make your flight arrangements much easier with a wider choice of points of origin. Sorry if this seems like bad news but it is a realistic portrait of what happens (down there) all over the region. I know, I have been there ... everywhere. Kind regards, Walt Smith Re: Collection Station Dear Bob, Thanks for the prompt reply. Thanks for also inviting me to LA. I am not too far off - in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area, 5 minutes from the airport. <Oh! We will likely see each other at the hobby do this next weekend. The MACNA get-together is in Dallas> I will surely pay you a visit one of these days. As a matter of fact, I have relatives that live in Studio City. However, I will not be readily available to join you and your friends on your monthly dive trips as I have a full-time job as a Software Consultant although I may squeeze in a few days for just one or two trips. <If you'd like, I'll add you to our diving friends email mail-out list> Ok, Solomon Islands are out of the question now. I will do only one island on my short vacation cum business trip and Vanuatu is my choice. And you seem to suggest that it is a great place. The minimum investment requirement is VT5 million (approx. $35K). And they have daily flights to Brisbane and Sydney so airspace. With the exchange rate @ $1 = 136 Vatu, starting my project here seems favorable. <I do want to speak with you re selling to other wholesale concerns in the area... it may "make sense" to just sell to Walt in Fiji for instance> Are there any downsides to doing business in Vanuatu? Are there folks out there already heavily involved in the trade? <The biggest, and only real downside IMO is the fact that the country overall is very undeveloped... for me it is frustrating to not be able to get hands on tools, materials readily... and the paucity of "entertainment" is daunting over months time... The industry is just barely developed there (compared with other places/nations> It has also been a challenge gathering and understanding the arcane data in the trade. Could you point me to sources other than OFI and EMS? <Do you have Elizabeth Woods "working papers" ala the WCMC? The most worthwhile, accurate, significant... though always dated, incomplete... as the folks in the trade are wont to fully share their catch data> Aquarama in S'pore seems like a must for a fledgling like me. <Yes!> Also, why did Walt Smith choose Fiji and Tonga? <An involved story. I will cc Walt here and ask his input. Yes, he really is that good a competitor and fine person to boot> Are the conditions for doing business there as inviting as it was in 1989/90? <IMO, no... the government and NGO wanna-be "environmentalist" concerns are more and more impinging and impacting the industry... and the cost of air-freight took a big jump earlier this year, and is scheduled to jump again... But nonetheless, the resource is absolutely fabulous.> Yes, I concur with you on the M'sian scenario. Their ostensible aim is to protect the environment but on the other hand, it seemed ok to decimate thousands of acres of forests in East Malaysia (Sarawak) for the Bakun Hydro Electric project. Awaiting your feedback. Best, Bala (Nebula Reefs International) <Again, I wish there was something we could do to "open up" Malaysia. If memory serves, I e-chatted with a person earlier in '02 who led me to believe marine livestock collection was going to be allowed there. Bob Fenner> Re: Collection Station Dear Bob, I leave for NJ tomorrow. I will attend MACNA XIV, barring any unforeseen circumstances at the clients site. <See you then, there> Yes, I would very much like to be on your diving friends email mail-out list! <Done> Could you please elaborate/elucidate on the topic regarding selling to Walt Smith. <His companies buy from many others in the South Pacific (and elsewhere). You might do well to at least initially utilize him as a distributor for your livestock... much easier than handling the documentation, sales, collections (yes, a problem) by "doing it yourself"> And there is an upside to being a pioneer in Vanuatu compared to finding a niche in places like Fiji and Tonga. Nevertheless, it is something I will find out in several weeks time. I should be able to get whatever that is lacking from Australia or New Zealand right? <Don't know if I'm following you here. Yes to there being different organisms from this region> With regards to Malaysia, I had a relative personally approach the Fisheries Dept. (Lembaga Kemajuan Perikanan Malaysia) and obtain info. from the horses mouth. They must've confused fish for consumption with the ornamental trade. <I see> Talk to you soon. Best, Bala <Bob Fenner> Re: Collection Station Dear Mr. Fenner, Thanks for the prompt reply. Actually, I was bent on starting in Solomon Islands because of their relaxed laws on immigration, business etc. the presence of Malaysian logging companies and also affordable labor. <All plus points. If you can stand the possibility of being shot or your business being confiscated... be my guest> The Marshall islands currency is US dollars and may be too costly to start with. On the other hand, the exchange rate for 1USD = 7.25 Solomon Dollars. <Agreed... and for good reason> Are your observation of these islands anecdotal or first hand? Have you visited any of the islands I have mentioned? <I have been to all of them> I intend to scope-out some of these islands within the next 3-4 weeks. Am trying to beat the rainy season. I was thinking of flying from Lax to Sydney and plan my trips from there. It is really hard to come to a decision from here. And I will not be able to visit all the islands mentioned. I have 10 days research so 3 islands would be tops. <Not enough time... I have a proposition for you... come and visit in the U.S. (Los Angeles) and I will gladly take you around... or join us on our sojourns about (diving, traveling), we go somewhere almost every month. Are you attending Aquarama in May?> And I really don't want to go against the "800 pound gorilla" in Fiji unless I have to. Looking forward to your feedback and direction. Best, Bala <Be chatting, Bob Fenner> Fish collecting business Hi, I have been in search on information about a new business I have in mind and since I found your website I have been able to find a lot of valuable information. I will planning on starting a fish collecting business in west Africa. I know I am faced with a lot of challenges. My plan is to setup my facility, begin collection and have the facility running for a few months before I start sourcing wholesalers. <Actually, I would start this last right now. A very good idea to "go to this step" now in determining who you will sell to, what they are willing to pay, how they want to and can be shipped to (airfreight carriers, CITES, Customs, forwarders...), concurrent with your giving them some idea of what you have available. It may well be that these same folks can/will help you in gathering tools, materials, maybe even personnel to build out your collecting station and gear for shipping livestock> I am also thinking of breeding some of the local species and hoping that down the road I will be able to rely more on aquaculture for fish I supply. <... this is an entirely different business... much time, facilities, many hours involved in making a go... Do you have partner/s in this endeavor already? You will need at least one if you intend to do both collecting and aquaculture, plus employees> Well my question is a business like this still viable in today pet industry and would it be difficult to find wholesalers willing to buy. <Depends on what you have, can get, the pricing AND airfreight cost and availability... and even if your country's government will allow it. Do you know of existing businesses of your type that are in operation currently? I strongly encourage your talking with, visiting them... even working with/for them for a while> Is there any article that will answer some of the questions I might have. Thanks Dayjee <Welcome to our industry. I can and will help you if you'd like. By answering your general queries, introducing you about to some of the players in international markets. At this point, do you have a good idea of what sorts of livestock you will have available, in what numbers (sustainably)... how you're going to hold and ship them... to which countries? Bob Fenner> Re: fish collecting business Thanks Mr. Fenner, for your response. would you happen to have anyone in the northeast that I could talk to. Dayjee <Mmm, not off hand. Is it possible for you to visit locations where collecting is a business. Maybe Hawai'i? Bob Fenner> |
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