Questions setting up a Neon Tetra tank    11/7/12
Hello. My name is Niki. I stumbled across your site and am very impressed; also very grateful as it appears to answer most of my questions, even more so that you're there for me to ask more.
<Welcome aboard!>
I love Neon Tetras (yes, I know how you feel about them),
<Don't dislike them… but do recognise that they're less easy to keep than many suppose, and farmed ones are a bit plagued by disease.>
but as with many others I'm reading, have had difficulty keeping them.
<As have I…>
I've gotten enormous amounts of really good information from reading here, and want to use it to make a Neon Tetra tank, with your help. It would appear that the problems with Neons are most often temperature, water hardness and Neon Tetra Disease.
<Yes, yes and yes.>
I want to do this right, so I've researched a bunch and this is what I've come up with. I'd most appreciate your advice. As to the tank, I did a lot of reading and got this from you guys. For Neons:
STABLE pH between 6 and 7.5;
<Somewhere in there, but obviously the stability is the key bit.>
72-75 F temperature;
<Yes, but be sure to adjust the newly bought specimens to cooler conditions carefully. I'd set the tank up to the temperature of the water in the retailer's tank, then set the heater down a degree, so the water cools down slowly across a day. Repeat every day as required until the water is at the right temperature.>
Consistently zero levels of ammonia and nitrite; 5, 10, 15 ppm nitrate at least. I have good (liquid--not test strip) test kits for all of that.
<Good.>
"For dealing with hard water, you advised 1 part tap water to 9 parts distilled, RO or rainwater. Yes, our water is somewhat hard, but we live in Marin County, California, so unless Climate Change affects us really quickly, we usually get up to 22 in. a year in rainfall--I'll start collecting! My friend at the fish store swore they've never had any problems with our water and Neons. She's not bullshitting me, she takes good care of me; I had tank problems one time and lost almost EVERYTHING; she had me keep bringing my water in before she'd let me buy any more fish, and even then maintain it for two weeks to be sure! So they're not just in it for the money. I'm not sure how much our water has to do with my inability to keep Neons, but I'm taking no chances. Is there a way to test water softness...I'm not crazy about the idea of buying water to change my fish tank frequently!
<To begin with, set the tank up with your local water, just like your retailer. What I'd suggest you do is let them settle in like that. But each weekend, as you do the water change, simply do water changes 50/50 tap water and RO water (or rainwater). For Neons, it's actually not crucial for the water to be super-soft; the aim is to avoid liquid rock. 10, 12 degrees dH, with a pH around 7.5, is absolutely fine.>
As to gathering rainwater, we have a friend who's lived with my husband and I for several years after moving here from Michigan area. She has a 50-gallon tank down in her room downstairs, has always had fish, and she's to blame for getting me into them. Big dog person (Huskies rule!); I've had cats, dwarf rabbits, many reptiles when younger, and others, but I just got a tank and got started with her advice when it came to fish. Learned MUCH since then, but this is the first time I'm deliberately setting up a tank rather than "oooo, that's pretty, I'll take two of those, and..." (don't say it; I know). She's leery of me collecting rainwater, and I'm not sure if it's just 'cuz she's a neat freak, so I'll ask you. I planned on putting clear plastic sheeting over a couple of coolers and a big metal bucket we have out back to catch the water; she says plastic would affect the water. What is your opinion?
<I'd be more worried about the metal bucket, to be honest. Rainwater is acidic and tends to react with metal. Stainless steel should be okay, but food-grade plastic containers are the ideal. With all this said, if rainwater is collected quickly then stored indoors, the sheeting and the bucket may not matter much. In any case, rainwater is variably safe; I collect and use rainwater, but many aquarists think the risk isn't worth it. If you're keeping Neons, you don't need a huge tank, 10, 15 gallons is fine, and if you lightly stock the tank and don't overfeed, water changes would be modest. Buying the 3, 4 gallons of RO water every weekend or two might be worthwhile.>
As to the filtration: "Air-powered filters are ideal, and sponge, box, and undergravel " is what you suggest--Currently I have what you call "electric canister filter", but picked up an "Air-driven, Inside-the-tank Cartridge Filter" which my current air pump will drive. My "advisor" at the fish store set me up with cut-to-fit ammonia-remover filter pads for it. I'm putting it in today, she said let it be there for two weeks to soak up the bacterial stuff before changing the tank. Also, I read somewhere on your site (but can't find it again) about leaving the top of the tank open for aeration since bubbles aren't really that helpful; would you recommend that?
<Not necessary. So long as the tank isn't hermetically sealed, air will get through narrow gaps and holes just fine.>
Substrate and "furnishings":
"Smooth sand and Indian almond leaves to recreate leaf litter." I've had problems with live plants in the past (dying, and snails) so I'd prefer to stay with artificial, if possible. From what I see on the internet, Indian almond leaves shouldn't be a problem just littered along the bottom of the tank. Not wanting live plants would leave out the Java moss, Java fern and Anubias spp which are suggested, along with bogwood roots.
<Shame, because they're really bullet-proof, especially the Anubias.>
I'm debating whether to go natural or artificial bogwood roots, given they're already dead (positive) but can acidify over time (your opinion?); what other artificial "furniture" would you suggest? From what I'm reading, they like lots of foliage to hide behind, which I could provide with fake plants from bottom to top for them.
<Neons do like, need shade.>
Could I keep my shells and rocks, or do Neons need other types of things to hide under/around?
<Not shells (they harden the water) and the rocks need to be lime-free as well. So granite good, limestone bad.>
You say Neons like "low light levels (i.e., no lights, lots of shade); little to no water movement--4 times the volume per hour". NO artificial light would leave the aquarium pretty dark where it sits, and there's no other place in the room I can put it. I checked about low-level aquarium lights and she said they don't have any, but remembered that they used to have these light "covers" for fluorescents to bring down the brightness...I'll look around for those, unless you know of specific low-light aquarium lights.
<Without plants, then use one or two fluorescent tubes. Gro-lux tubes (which are a bit purplish) flatter Neons especially.>
You mention "Smooth silica sand, also known as silver sand and pool filter sand" as a good substrate; the light color I saw on the internet wouldn't have enhanced low light levels for the Neons, but bang-on!, she had it in BLACK--which you guys also mentioned being a good color decoratively. And yes, she said it IS "smooth silica"--the bags are unmarked but I trust her.
<Cool.>
Then we get to the fish. I have a number of fish that are currently in the 20-gallon tank which will become the Neon tank. There is a lovely woman at our best fish store in town who's taken care of me for a long time. She will take any of the fish I want to give up. Of those I have, I only want to retain the African Frog, Kuhli Loach and Chinese Algae Eater. Will the Kuhli do the job of keeping the bottom clean, or should I keep one of the Corys I have to clean the substrate?
<Corydoras are ideal, because they like the same coolish conditions.>
Can I keep my Kuhli Loach, who has a temperature range of 79-84?
<Not ideal.>
I need to decide how many Neons and what I'll put with them. Checking the tankmates you suggest, I'd like to go with Diamond Neons, Black Neons, Red Phantoms and/or Golden Pencilfish.
<All good, provided the water temperature is okay.>
Neons are of course the priority. I see them referred to as "pelagic", and "mid to bottom-dwellers .85 in.
Stable pH between 6 and 7.5;
72-77 F temperature;
2-10 dH; potentially to a max of 15
"5, 10, 15 ppm nitrate at least"
The "Diamond" or "Diamond Head", is a mid-level swimmer who gets to a maximum size of 2-1/2 inches.
<Do you mean Diamond Tetras?>
pH range 5-7
Temperature range is 72-80 F
5-12 dH
Red Phantoms are mid-level swimmers of 1.6 inches
pH range 5.5-7.0
They have a temperature range of 72-82 F,
4-20 dH
Black Neons are mid- to top-dwellers that get 1.5 inches.
pH range 5.5-7.5
Temperature of 71-78
2-15 dH
Golden Pencilfish, surface/close-to-surface dwellers 2 inches.
pH range 6-7
Temperature 75-79
5-19 dH
(Caveat: I reeeely like the Diamonds) ;o)
I can't find "nitrate" levels for any of those but the Neons. The problem is, I get slightly different figures from virtually every website I research, so it's tough! That's why I'm asking for your help. How often would I have to check pH and are there any tests for dH??
<I'd check weekly for the first couple months, but thereafter, once all fish installed and they're all happy, once a month, if that.>
I'm listing the above because I've gone through all your suggested tankmates and my own "wish list", and these are the closest I find that are among those I'd like to have. Obviously I don't want to overcrowd, so depending on what you advise, I'll have to choose. If I can keep the frog, Kuhli and Algae Eater, what would you recommend...I assume it would be a minimum of six to a school of any of them, so I'm not sure how to calculate size/number of species/number per species to go with the Neons in a 20-gallon tank. Given Neons are mid- to bottom-dwellers, how would that mix with Diamonds/Reds as mid-levels and/or Black Neons as mid- to top-dwellers and/or Pencilfish as top-dwellers?
<In 20 gallons, you could keep 6-8 Neons, 5-6 Corydoras, and one other school of 6-8 tetras of some sort without problems.>
Bear in mind with all of this that, although I've learned some by now and have done a lot of research THIS time, this is the first time since I lost almost all the fish in one tank that I've gone beyond asking "will they be okay with _____?" to the guy in the fish shop! Does the word "neophyte" come to mind?
<In a good way.>
Also, nobody around here carries Diamonds or Reds, so I would have to either order them through the store or get them on line...the latter of which I've never done before. I've not inquired about ordering, just been told it can be done. Input?
<If you're after Diamond Tetras, Moenkhausia pittieri, they're widely traded. No need to buy all your fish at once. Indeed, getting the Neons settled first is a very good idea.>
Okay, that about covers everything (I can think of); your advice and any further information would be most appreciated. I'm getting excited thinking about this! I have to wait two weeks for the filter to pick up bacteria before changing the substrate and preparing for the new guys, and would be grateful for any advice on changing the tank over and introducing the new "tenants" which you might be willing to give as well.
Much thanks, Niki
<Most welcome, Neale.>
Re: Questions setting up a Neon Tetra tank 11/10/12
Hi again Neale:
<Niki,>
Thank you for all your wonderful advice. Hopefully I'll be successful following all your suggestions. And yes, it was Diamond Tetras I was mentioning. I forgot to mention that I feed one tank flakes and brine shrimp, and the other flakes and bloodworms (for the frog). Over-feeding has always been a problem for me, my friend keep slapping my hand away to help me "wean off" over-feeding. I'm learning!
<Cool.>
You weren't in favor of me keeping the Kuhli Loach. After reading around, it appears they can take 75°F - 85°F--given the other options and the Neons, if I kept the temp stable somewhere between 75 and 77, they should be okay...and they like "medium to medium soft" water, so that fits (as well as their pH). The sand would be perfect for them. It say they like to be kept in schools of 3 or more--I only have one--I'd rather not get any more if I can keep him? I don't want to give him away, and my other tank has a full-grown Rafael, a Krib and three full-grown Barbs...obviously he can't go in there! He would probably love the soft, black sand to root around in.
<For sure.>
You didn't address the African Frog--from what I read, it looks like he might work out okay; temp matches and it says they do well with "other like-minded and docile fish, like the loaches and community tetras", which pretty much exactly describes my tank!
<Good.>
Again, I can't put him in the other tank, for obvious reasons! The other numbers work well, except it says a pH of 7 to 7.2. If that's really necessary, it might be a bit tough to keep it at say a stable 7-7.2 (which would be okay for the other fish), but if it means I can keep him, I'd be willing to try.
<You'll likely be fine, so long as they get food and aren't nippy by anything aggressive.>
The Algae Eater's numbers match, too, and I'd like to keep him (again, he's pretty small so can't go to the other tank) 'cuz he keeps the algae down. Can I keep those three guys, and maybe get two (rather than just one) other small "school" of a different tetra, instead of getting more Cories, or should I stick with these three guys and just the Neons and one other small school of some kind of Tetra? You suggested more Cories; I have two now and don't really want anymore, in fact I'd like to get rid of one of them. I'm not a big fan of Cories, but they keep the bottom "vacuumed" a bit, so that's why I got them. If I could replace your suggestion of more Cories with one of the Cories I've got, I don't THINK that would overstock a 20-gallon, with the Neons and one (or two?) other "mini-school" of another Tetra. If you really think the Loach is a bad idea, I'll give him away with the others I'm removing, but I really love the little guy (seldom as I see him!).
<Well, see what happens. At 24-25 C they should all do okay.>
After what you said, I think I'll go mostly with RO water and maybe some rainwater too. By "food-grade plastic containers are the ideal", I'm guessing you mean plastic containers sold to store food.
<Yes. Also stuff sold for agriculture, like storage of animal feed and whatnot.>
I have a "plastic food container addiction" (they don't seem to have a twelve-step program for that)...so anything I've had to work not to buy too MANY! You're right that buying a few gallons of RO every weekend is no biggie and worth it; we used to buy it for ourselves and gave up as it was too much trouble, so I still have the bigger 5-gallon plastic containers laying around somewhere.
<So there you go. An easy option.>
After reading what you said, I've made a decision. My other tank (mentioned above) is darker, has fake logs in it, one big fake log where the Rafael "lives".
<Ah now, this might eat the Neons. Not sure I thought about this first time around! While they prefer shelled invertebrates, especially snails in the wild, they're not about eating small fish given the chance.>
I think I'm going to switch that to the "seashore tank", 'cuz I've got some really lovely shells and the stones are light w/gold, some kind of decorative rock (it's not limestone). With the existing white sand from the existing "seaside" tank (which I was going to replace with the black sand), it'll be light, so the Neon tank can be dark with the logs, etc. I'm also thinking, given what you said, that if I make the Neon tank the darker one, I might try live plants again.
<Sure. Just remember seashells raise pH and hardness, so they're options for hard water systems and brackish water systems, or obviously marine systems.>
You wrote that Java moss, Java fern, Anubias and bogwood roots in some combination or other would work...as long as they don't bring along snails (been there/done that/no thank you!).
<Easy to prevent. Dip/immerse in snail removing potions as sold in aquarium shops.>
I'll look around for them; that way it will give the Neons (and whatever tetras) lots of things to hide around, and be darker. Does that sound good to you?
<Yes.>
Going with live plants, you wrote "Gro-lux tubes (which are a bit purplish) flatter Neons especially"--I'm guessing Gro-lux would be good for the live plants?
<Oddly enough, outstanding for land plants, which is what they were invented for. But they're not that good for aquarium (underwater) plants. Anubias will certainly do fine, and Java fern and Java moss should do okay.>
In which case, I'll go with them; want those little guys to show off to their best advantage, after going to all this trouble! You mentioned not getting all the fish at once; trust me, I won't make that mistake (again)! I'm not going to add any new fish until I'm sure everything (especially the Neons( is happily established, just keep the ones you think I can keep and only add the Neons once the tank has been set up. Thanks for all your advice about how to introduce them, I'll follow it to the letter! Cooling the water slowly is going to be a real chore, as the heater in there doesn't "read" what my thermometer does,
<Hmm… not trouble really, surely? Turn the heater-stat down a degree or two, and let the tank cool down itself.>
so I have to go by the latter and check and check to be sure it's okay until I get it stabilized. Worth it, though'.
<Could well be.>
Swapping the two tanks: Until now, they've both been pretty much the same, water, temp, pH, etc. I'm guessing I shouldn't change too much to start with,
<Yes.>
so if I just swap the fish I have now and give away the ones I'm not going to keep, then change all the numbers (slowly!) in the one tank to be good for the Neons, wait a while to be sure everyone's stable, then introduce them, let them settle before I introduce any others. I WILL have to completely empty and clean the tank I'm going to use for the Neons, as the Algae Eater I had in there I think got eaten, so there's quite a bit of algae on the "furniture" (fake logs, etc.). Also, the substrate in there is dark pebbles, so I'll have to clean the whole tank and replace it with the black sand. I'm guessing I should change it over to live plants and let them settle in as well before I add the Neons. Get it all set up, wait (how long?)
<Week or two.>
and check levels of everything, and once it's stable, look for some Neons--introduce them, wait again (how long?)
<A few days, a week.>
before introducing anything else. Does that sound about right?
<Yes.>
This is quite an undertaking; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been successful without you looking "over my shoulder" as it were, but it'll be more than worth it for me if I can get and keep some of those lovely Neons. Thanks once more for all your help! Niki
<Most welcome, Neale.> 
Re: Questions setting up a Neon Tetra tank, stkg.     11/11/12
Okay Neale, one more time, then I promise to stop bugging you!
<Indeed?>
Couple of things:  By "You'll likely be fine, so long as they get food and aren't nippy by anything aggressive" I'm guessing you were referring to the African Frog (dwarf, if I didn't mention)?
<Yes.>
He's never had any problems with the other fish, shown no sign of damage, etc., and as I said, those were Corys, the Loach and various Tetras, so I'm not sure what would get nippy...?
<Quite so. But giving you a general approach to take when choosing subsequent tankmates and/or deciding which tank to keep these frogs in.>
Also, you expressed concern about the Rafael...I think you misunderstood. 
He lives with the Barbs and the male Kribensis (he lost his mate a while back). I wouldn't dream of putting ANY of those in the same tank with Neons, or the Frog.  My idea was to swap both tanks...I wasn't thinking of dumping a near-adult Rafael in with the poor Neons, etc.  He'd have a field day!
<Or field night, at least.>
I kinda rambled (a problem of mine!), so let's see if I can be clear:
Right now:
--Dark tank (small pebble substrate, fake logs, plastic plants): Krib, Rafael, 3 Barbs
<All good.>
--Light tank (white sand, rocks, seashells): Frog, Loach, 2 Coreys, 2 small Algae Eaters 1 Glo-Lite Tetra and 3 Harlequin Rasboras (I'm not keeping the Rasboras, Tetra, and 1 of the Corys). My reason for giving away those is that I like Neons, you suggested several I like, and I want to keep little "schools" of Tetras, rather than single individuals of other things.
<Would not use natural seashells in a freshwater tank like this. The shells will dissolve, making your purchase, use of softened water pointless.
Artificial (plastic, ceramic) shells are fine though.>
WILL BE:
--Dark tank (w/black sand, assorted plants and fake logs): Whatever Neons I get, Loach, Frog one Corey and Algae Eaters.
--Light Tank (w/light sand, rocks and seashells): Krib, Barbs and Rafael.
So you see, I THINK I'd have it where nobody would hurt anyone else--at least, the Barbs and their buddies have gotten along this far.  I hadn't forgotten about the seashells; I'll keep an eye on the pH; will research to see how Barbs, Kribs and Raphaels feel about water hardness...especially the Krib, he's my baby and it about killed me when his lady of long standing died (sniff!).
<None of these are overly fussy about hardness or pH, except to say none like rock-hard water, and if you want to Kribs to breed, you do need a pH of exactly 6.5-7.0 otherwise you end up with all one sex.>
Tried to get him another; she died quickly; I think that was the fault of the store, as I got one for Choey, our downstairs friend/roommate, and it died almost immediately too.  Haven't tried again since.  Anyway, the shells would be in THAT tank, not with the Neons, etc.  I'm paying close attention to what you're telling me, and taking notes, believe me!
<Cool.>
Oh, hey, I didn't know there WAS a snail-removing potion!  Choey told me snails often come with plants, and I had a SLEW of the tiny, tan-colored bastards I couldn't seem to get rid of (even removing EVERYTHING, boiling everything and going to plastic plants, believe it or not!).  I wish I'd known, would have saved a lot of time and effort.  Many thanks, I'll look for it right away!
<Potassium permanganate was the old method, but this chemical is fairly toxic and not recommended; snail-killing products are available in pet stores. Typically, dip plants for 20 minutes or so.>
That's really wild about Gro-Lux not being good for aquarium plants! I used it extensively for my regular plants, but I'm reeeely grateful you told me that. I'll go with the Anubias, Java fern and Java, and avoid anything else.
<The Gro-Lux tubes are really good, as you say, but their wavelength (colour) gets cut out by the water really quickly, so with anything more than, say, 20 cm/8 inches of water isn't worth using Gro-Lux tubes alone.
When I started keeping fish, mixing one Gro-Lux with one bright blue-white tube (most of the popular ones used today) was recommended. But really, the bright blue-white tubes are better for fish tanks.>
You are an absolute guardian angel, Neale...there are so many things I now know I'd have done wrong, I'd have ended up terribly disappointed if I didn't have all the advice you've give me.  I've made note of everything and will now start down the long road to setting up my two tanks EXACTLY the way that is best for them and that I want them.  Exciting!
<Indeed it is.>
Completely separate from my work to create a Neon tank, one last question. 
I had a "selection" of Barbs in the tank with the Krib and Rafael; over time several of them died.  Now I'm told I can't get anything else to fill the gap, as my Barbs are all full grown and would eat anything smaller.
<Not really sure this is true. While barbs are opportunists, they have small mouths, and like all Cyprinidae, lack teeth, so their predatory abilities are minimal. Ad adult Tiger Barb for example doesn't pose much of a threat to anything other than teeny-tiny fish (newborn Guppies for example).>
So how does one go about replacing something in a tank with other "aggressives"?  I've asked two shop owners (one the woman I mentioned that I trust a lot), and they both said "can't be done".
<Provided you choose compatible species that are too deep-bodied to be swallowed whole, there's no real risk I can think of; at worst, barbs are nippy, so adding things like male Guppies, juvenile Angels or fancy Bettas would be daft. But Danios would be fine, being too fast to catch, while the deeper bodied tetras like X-Ray Tetras would be safe as well. Bleeding Heart Tetras are particularly useful fish, offering nice colours (in the right tank, they fade a bit in bright tanks) while having quite a pushy, robust personality themselves. I've kept them with South American Puffers and they did very well. Another stalwart species that'd thrive would be the Black Widow Tetra, but you might also consider the South American Red-Eye Tetra (Moenkhausia sanctaefilomenae). It's a pretty species, extremely hardy, but overlooked by some because it can be nippy at times towards slow-moving fish. Since you're keeping it with barbs, that won't be an issue.>
Looks awful empty in there--once I swap it over, will look even MORE empty without the logs and stuff.  All I have now, in a 20-gallon tank, are four Barbs (two Tiger--a regular and an Albino--and a Cherry) the Krib and the Rafael.  I reeeely miss my two Green Tigers, as they were the reason I set the entire tank up with "aggressives".
<Barbs aren't really aggressive, so I'm not sure you view them this way.
Many barbs, like the Five-Banded Barb and the African Dwarf Golden Barb, are in fact rather shy.>
Should I just leave it at that (since I hope someday to get the Krib another mate), or is there some other option?
<Many; see above.>
Okay, I quit, hopefully you're rid of me now. Thanks again for all your wonderful advice. Now I get to go to work...wish me luck! ;o)
Niki
<Real good. Cheers, Neale.>