|FAQs on Parasitic Marine Worm Diseases: Flukes/Digenes & (Monogene)
FAQs on Flukes/Trematodes:
Treatments That Don't Work,
Cures That Do Work,
The Flatworms That Are Flukes
by Bob Fenner, Marine Parasitic Disease,
Fish Worm Diseases 1, Marine Worm Parasites 2,
Marine Worm Parasites 3, & FAQs
on Marine Worm Parasites: Diagnosis/Symptomology, Etiology/Prevention, Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,
"Other" Worms and Worm-Like Parasites...
Paravortex/Black Spot Disease,
Gill-worm / flukes 7/20/18
We are having an outbreak of what I believe is flukes. (transparent colorless
flatworms falls of fish in FW bath). We have put fish through 10 minute fresh
water dip, and many fell off however problem still occurs and we are losing
fish. We have got Prazi based medicine for gill worms by Sera called Tremazol.
Supposedly medicine is safe for biofilter. Manufacturer advises to do 80% water
change after 6 hour treatment.
<Okay; have you used it?>
Since our system is infested and worms matured, my question is regarding
parasites lifecycle and what would your suggestion be for treatment?
<Per the instructions on the packet>
How long should we keep medicine in the system in order to kill off
<Likely has to be reapplied>
I'm totally clueless about worms since we never had this issue before, FW dip
usually takes care of this on the import.
<Yes... though I'd add a modicum of formalin to your pH adjusted freshwater
dips/baths. Please see WWM re:
We have a very strong bio filter, and system is fish only quarantine system, I
assume water change is advised to remove dead worms/flukes in order to avoid
having ammonia issue due to all dead worms.
<IF there is a bunch, a good deal of dead biota/mass, yes>
Which I believe wont be the case in our system due to powerful bio filter.
<And you, Bob Fenner>
Robert" Trematode rdg.; stat.
Hi ya my friend what is it with flukes these days
<There's a HUGE increase in what I'm seeing in imported fishes; and am
down diving in Bonaire where MANY of the reefs are impacted... by human
Ten to fifty percent covered in places with BGA. White and black "dots"
(presumably Cercariae) on tangs and scarids in particular, but also on
I have big systems at home the last two weeks have been a total
nightmare Fast breathing ,shaking, no eating go skinny die I have to get
on top of this my friend
I'm now hearing suppliers are dipping in ro just plain Can shed some
light on this please and what I should do
<Gone over thoroughly on WWM: READ:
and the linked files at top. B>
I don't know if you guys can help or give advice on this but your
website is the best clue I've found so far to my problem.
I found the closest picture to what I found on my regal tang and
butterfly fish on one of your message boards and I read through it to
see if anyone mentioned the name but there didn't.
<The image... lifted? Is the opisthaptor of a Monogene....>
I was wondering if anyone could help me identifying this parasite.
<.... on the basis of what?>
The fish were showing hazy eyes, shaking of the head, lethargy and
scratching off rock. We did a freshwater dip and the flukes came out
into the treatment tank.
<I'd add a bit of formalin... See the dip/bath S.O.P. on WWM>
I would like to figure out a treatment to clear the system but we have
lps in the tank so quarantine is I think the only option for the fish.
<See.... READ on WWM re Monogenetic Trematode/Fluke treatments....>
If I could identify the species I could learn more about its life cycle
and try break it to rid the tank of it completely.
<Need data mate. This isn't time for a guessing game. Bob Fenner>
Sent by iPhone
Re: Fluke 5/18/16
That image I sent was taken of the parasites that came off my butterfly fish
after we did the dip, not lifted it was taken on my own microscope at home.
<Ah good. Will post then>
It was just similar to the picture I saw on your message board.
<Sorry for my misunderstanding your msg.>
What sort of data would be needed other than the image of the parasite and I
can let you know ?
<What other life, livestock present. Do you have live rock, sand? Have you
used Anthelminthics, Vermifuges already?>
<Thank you. BobF>
We have 3 Banggai cardinals, regal tang, bristle tooth tang, two clowns, 6 line
wrasse, cleaner wrasse. Love rock and live sand.
<Due to these last two, I would be very careful of using de-worming medicines in
this system. There are food-lacing techniques that may be worthwhile to try...
These are gone over, archived on WWM. Do you consider that most all the flukes
were removed from the tang and BF by your dip procedure?>
Lps corals, gorgonians and snakelocks anemone and beadlet anemone. Haven't
treated the tank due to corals and the fluke treatment available in shops here
aren't reef safe.
<There are none that are both safe and effective>
We have set up quarantine tank to take the fish out of main system and starve
I have identified the parasite to the genus Neobenedenia.
I am lucky enough to have access to large amount of research through university
libraries so I finally found some good papers about them and life cycle. Fresh
<pH adjusted, and w/ the formalin.... Read here:
and the linked files above re this biocide>
everyone before quarantine and going to starve the main tank parasite population
for a month to be sure and then reintroduce the butterfly alone for monitoring
to insure it's clean before releasing all the rest. We believe it was the
butterfly that brought it in as she is newest fish and supposedly they are
notorious with this parasite.
<Yes indeed. Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Coldwater box fish with flukes
I have an Ornate Boxfish that came to me last September in poor shape. He
had a very cloudy eye and what looked like a lump on one fin.
He is still in qt almost 8 months later although he now shares qt with a
few starfish, some snails and some anemones.
His tank is 75 gallons, kept at 61 degrees and he is well fed and cleaned.
The cloudy eye cleared up within a month, but the lump stayed. After 4
months, the lump was gone, but small spots showed up on all his fins.
These turned into the exact same kind of lump as the original blemish on
his pectoral fin, except they were all over all his fins. We treated with
<No!!! An at times toxic scam>
Prazi, formalin (twice), neoplex, Ruby reef
<.... see WWM Re>
Hydroplex and vitamins. We even did a freshwater dip on the back half of
him, while keeping salt water running over his gills and mouth.
One day, we did a manual inspection on these lumps and I tried to remove
one. It came off with just a bit of effort, and upon inspection under a
microscope, we found it had a leach type mouth and was actively looking for
its host. We removed 15 in total from the fish.
We treated the wounds with polysporin and they appear to be healing. We
also ran a double dose of Prazi after we removed the parasites. However it
is a month later and we notice there are some very fine white dots and a
couple of these dots appear to be growing.
<See (as in actually READ on WWM re other Anthelminthics.... coldwater
settings... don't work as well>
How do we break the cycle and get rid of these pests?
<Reading... don't have the time, desire to re-key>
I would like to get the boy into his permanent home eventually and don't
want to have him continue to suffer with parasites.
Here is an image of the flukes after we removed them. They were about 10mm
diameter, and looked like poplar seeds. They were flat, round and slightly
raised in the middle. They appeared to have a small 'tail', no eyes, and a
round sucker mouth on the underside. I froze them, in case someone could
give me a better ID.
<Neat! Write back later after reading, trying other Vermifuges. READ before
trying misc. "medicines" that are scams. Bob Fenner>
Hello almighty saltwater gods. I am not worthy. So I was thinking.....what kinds
of materials and what nots can hold Cupramine in a tank and cause the testing
level to appear not to rise and/or then possibly leech back into the water when
<Oh; this list is long... am sure one could use the Net, but am so olde that I'd
be looking in a CRC Manual for common molecules likely to form in a marine
aquarium habitat. Is cupric chloride, copper carbonate have a higher solubility
For example, small clay pots, while they make nice caves, are porous. And can
bits of uneaten food soak the medicine up enough to cause a problem?
<Mmm; not as much as the seawater itself, or "fresher" carbonate substrate and
rock.... fired clay pots are somewhat chemically inert>
I know to remove uneaten food but I was thinking about using a seaweed clip and
in that case, the food would spend more time in the water than flakes or Mysis.
My bicolor blenny, usually fat and happy, is eating little.
I am currently having what seems to be a bit of trouble getting my Cupramine
level above 3ish. All of my parameters are good and I only have a pre seeded
filter, heater, two little clay pots and an airs stone in a bare bottom 20 long.
I am treated a bicolor blenny and a royal gramma. I have been slowly raising the
Cupramine level over the last week and I want to be sure I am at a good
therapeutic level so I'm not wasting my time and unnecessarily stressing my
fish. Also, I don't want to prolong their Ich misery. It is/was a slight case to
my eyes. I did not follow the directions, dosing wise, because I have read it is
better to slowly raise the Cupramine level, especially for the sensitive blenny.
Since the white spots, of which there were only two on the blenny's top fin, and
one on the gramma' head, are not the actual parasite themselves, is their
absence after or during treatment even a fairly reliable sign that treatment is
working? Shouldn't the spots disappearing mean nothing more than the human
equivalent of a scab falling off?
<Mmm; these spots may be from irritation of some sort... mucus accumulating....
Even Trematodes (seeing them btw very commonly here in Curacao the last week
I have read that Cupramine may kill Ich at levels as low as .25 but I don't want
to take the chance of under treating,
<Ah yes; and deep-embedded parasites, ones on fishes w/ thick mucus; even some
"Crypt ""races" can be resistant to copper exposure>
particularly since my bicolor has not been eating well. I think he should be ok
eating only a little so long as I can complete the treatment in a reasonable
amount of time, say three weeks total. I am using a SeaChem test. My ammonia is
good and I have been doing 20% water changes every three days, matching the
temp, ph, SG, and Cupramine level in the new water with that of the tank prior
<Should test and replace the copper every day>
Besides that, the tank was fully cycled prior to treatment. I will remove
Cupramine after treatment and let my tank remain fallow for 72 days total.
<I and you very likely appreciate the vagaries of copper use... Hence my
swerving allegiance to Quinine compounds (and always prevention via dips/baths,
careful livestock selection, optimized, stable environment, good nutrition....)
over recent years. Bob Fenner>
Re: Cupramine leeching... plus copy f'/Trematodes
Thanks again. My question regarding the seaweed clip....what I should have said
was...Will the seaweed absorb the Cupramine and then maybe leech back into the
<It will absorb and re-lease very little copper. Not a worry. Again; there is
some cupric ion in all life.... it, the element is an essential, albeit "micro"
But before I read your reply I began to realize that my babies probably don't
have ich at all. I think you are right about this being a case of Trematodes. My
blenny's two fin spots have never changed location, only changed a bit in shape.
I think I assumed ich mostly because of the scratching both fish were doing
before I hospitalized them.
<Ahh! Saw a BUNCH of Flukes on fishes last week in Curacao.... more on more
species than I've ever encountered in the wild. Tellingly, much more prevalent
on fishes resident in some "environmentally modified" (polluted) locations>
I don't ask questions I don't want the answer to...so I will, in the future, use
a quinine compound with good aeration as you suggest.
But......since I have been putting them through two weeks of Cupramine already,
I think I will continue the course at least another week as a preventative
measure (unless, of course, you tell me to do otherwise). I think it would still
be wise to leave my display tank fallow for 72 days since I can't be sure ich
isn't there somewhere.
<Well; not to bum you out, and ignore your self-admonition above, but Crypt is
to degrees most every where there are tropical marine fishes>
After the Cupramine treatment is over, I think I should remove the Cupramine and
<Sure; or could do now. The two compounds as "mix-able">
Does a freshwater bath fit into this equation at some point? I have a bicolor
blenny and a royal gramma.
<Better a FW bath, pH adjusted w/ formalin and aeration... see WWM re such SOPs
and their specific use in eradicating external Trematodes>
Interesting that you saw an increase in Trematodes in the wild as I don't
believe I have ever dealt with this pest in the last 15 years of fish keeping.
<Mmm; very common on (imported) angels, butterflies, tangs..... sharks>
I've dealt with ich before, and the spots always visibly disappeared after a
couple of days in copper. I think I blamed my poor little clay pots for
rendering my Cupramine ineffective, but all along,
<I have used hundreds of gallons of this fine product in commercial settings. It
does precipitate (disappear) by about half every day... interacting with natural
and synthetic seawater... MUCH more so if carbonaceous substrate/s is/are
present. HAS to be assessed (tested for) and "topped up" daily or more often>
I misdiagnosed my problem. The lesson is always the same.....quarantine.
Thanks for your wealth of information and patience.
<A pleasure to relate/share. Bob Fenner>
Attn: Bob Fenner RE: Flukes
Here's a copy and paste of our conversation on Facebook. Please remove
my name if you would like to publish this conversation on WWM.
Thanks for any help!
My friend owns a retail marine-only LFS. He's had some trouble with
Flukes over the years, and has dipped fish in PraziPro when they are
showing signs. His fish offered for sale are not quarantined or
medicated prior to sale. What is the life cycle of Flukes?
<Some are direct, other important species require an intermediate
host... and most of these are easily eliminated therefore. Control is
covered on WWM here:
Is there a way to interrupt this life cycle (such as how a good UV
sterilizer can interrupt Ich)?
<Yes... as covered in the above citation, best to dip/bath incoming fish
specimens to knock off external species. Bob Fenner>
Trematode life cycles vary quite a bit... mono- and di-genes... some
have direct development and the latter require an intermediate host... I
would NOT dip w/ Prazi, but use formalin... Please send all this to me
at Crew@WetWebMedia.com as it's easier to look up and refer you to
pertinent archives from there.
Re: Attn: Bob Fenner Re: Flukes
Thanks for your quick reply! My friend does not want to dip incoming
fish as they are usually stressed when they arrive.
<All are... life itself is "a series of compromises"... one must decide
for themselves which they choose, is better>
He has not had good luck dipping fish in the first few days.
<Should be done as part of the regular SOP/Triage of all incoming>
Is there any other way?
<Isolate, quarantine all incoming first IF they can't take the strain of
proper acclimation INCLUDING the dip/bathing... OR... get better
suppliers... Look and deal w/ "A" suppliers like Quality Marine if
they're in the US; TMC, DeJong et al. if in W. Europe...>
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Attn: Bob Fenner Re: Flukes: Wiki
Thank you Bob, I will share this with my friend. I think some of the
trouble with the stress is that we are in Canada and the fish travel for
<Is indeed a factor>
Many are coming direct from Philippines, Red Sea. Do you know
how Flukes move from one fish to another?
Do they free-swim? Jump on fish while they sleep?
<You can read re... here on Wiki:
There is a "standard" sort of cycle w/ variations... but eggs are
released to the environment and either directly infest or go through
another host first.... with all the usual accompanying archaic
I am not usually the one asking questions. I own a marine aquarium
maintenance company, and I quarantine all incoming fish for clients'
<You are wise here. I did such work for nineteen years; am writing a
series of articles for the pulp and e-zines for currently, and will be
compiling this into another direct to print and e-title. Much of our
olde action plans and op.s manual for Aquatic Life Services is archived
on WWM in the business sub-web section>
I do take the steps that you describe, but I can understand how these
steps could increase the landed cost of fish in a retail situation.
<Well-worth the cost to build one's business; without such value added
services the trade never does grow in a given locale... The best shops,
svc. co.s, "Do" dips/baths, and quarantine... their organisms live...
and their customers go on; including generating interest, new ones in
turn. The reciprocal is also so.>
The cost of shipping to our area is already so high that it is tough to
<Getting about time to encourage more local (aquaculture) production in
the marine fields>
Thank you so much for your time,
<And you for yours. Bob Fenner>
RE: Attn: Bob Fenner RE: Flukes 2/11/15
Thank you Bob! I will check out the business sub-section, I have not
checked this section out.
<Real good. B>
RE: Attn: Bob Fenner RE: Flukes 2/11/15
P.S. I also have an aquaculture sub-section to my company. I'm raising
the basics. Working on inverts - shrimps and decapods.
<Ahh; outstanding. B>
Clown Trigger Eye Issue. 1/13/15
Wow what a great site you've got! I've spent the last few hours going
through all your pages and am very impressed. I couldn't find a question
similar to mine for an answer so hopefully you can help me out :-)
I just picked up my first clown trigger and I'm concerned about his
<I see these>
There's some white marks that I wouldn't call hazy or spotty. They're
what only can be described as 'floaters'. They appear to move with his
movement but remain attached. Like a hangnail. Is he perhaps hitting on
the rock and creating little tears? Or could it be a parasite like
worms? I tried to take a couple photos, hopefully you can make
it out alright.
<Could be a physical manifestation from injury, but I would definitely
be treating, here for Trematodes>
I greatly appreciate any advice you may have before I go creating more
problems by treating the tank for problems he doesn't have.
<Do you need help using the search tool, indices on WWM? Bob Fenner>
Help to identify and treat disease
I was wondering if you know what this disease is, nobody seems to want
<On the Paracanthurus here I take it... Have you sampled
any of these... looked under a 'scope? Either something surface like
monogenetic Trematodes (flukes), or Microsporidean>
I took these pictures today a week later, his forehead is now expanding, I
have done extensive freshwater dips and am dosing Cupramine but no reaction
<Not treatable w/ copper>
I'd really like some help with this and don't know what
Thanks in advance,
<See WWM re the above... the former are easily treated w/ prophylactic
dips/baths and Anthelminthics, the latter... not treatable as yet as far as
I'm aware. Only improving the environment, nutrition... optimizing and
stabilizing the fishs health will it be able to improve if Microsproridean
(internal) involvement. Bob Fenner>
Re: Help to identify and treat disease
Thank you for the quick reply, the bulging band across the forehead has
receded somewhat as four white parasites now hang out of it whereas it was a
smooth bulge before. I will have a go at the dips with some trematode
medication and ease off with the Cupramine.
<Good; I'd give up on the copper... see WWM re this and Tangs; a poor match>
I see hypo is ineffective for flukes too and the main tank has been in hypo
for many weeks so by process of elimination it may well be flukes. Thanks
<Easily identified w/ sampling, microscopic exam... and just as easily
eliminated. READ on WWM re.
Re: Help to identify and treat disease
Hi Guys unfortunately not looking good at present. Video update here
<Mmm; Paracanthurus looks like it's developing HLLE, the Y. Tang breathing
hard... rest of fish look fine; but a Clown Trigger (dangerous; will kill
other fishes in time), and a hamlet/sweetlips?! Not easily kept>
Have dosed with
<I see; a product of Praziquantel>
3 days ago as recommended in case is Trematodes but now yellow tang looks
like is bleeding from lateral line and heavily infected with growths causing
Blue tang continues to be disfigured as the 'parasite' erodes deeper,
especially in the face, and dotted sweetlips also affected
with holes appearing in his head over the top and underneath gills. The
purple lips Flagfin has a single dot on the forehead that has been there
about a week but the join of his pelvic fins is blood red. Bannerfish eats a
few bits off the yellow tang on cleaning service and clown trigger seems
largely unaffected. The setup is about 2 years old but never had such a
difficult issue. It is about 3.5 weeks into the infection. Is fish only
setup with uv, protein skimmer (both off for 3 days on meds) and sump filter
tank below so any meds can go in the display tank. Anything else I might
try? I don't have a scope unfortunately. Thanks Ed
<The scope; as originally stressed. There's very little sense in
"treating" for something you don't know. Perhaps a download and
reading of the second ed. of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease; Diagnosis &
Treatment"... you can get from Amazon.com for a nominal charge for the
e-version. Call around; some fish stores, colleges w/ bio. depts. will have
microscopes, folks to help.
Re: Help to identify and treat disease... Flukes
Thanks Bob, I tested all the water parameters and found nitrite had
shot up, no ammonia or nitrate, so did about a 50% water change and redosed lost
Praziquantel. Ca, Mg and pH all on low borders but probably because is slightly
hypo still. I did 5 minute freshwater dips of the Sweetlips, yellow tang, blue
tang and Flagfin with Paraguard. The majority of the infection dropped off the
yellow tang this time,
<Preserve some... just with distilled clear alcohol if nothing else... to look
at under a scope>
he is still breathing hard and his face and body look like they are covered in
acne scars now, lots of sore little red holes remain.
<Likely fluke haptor holes>
Less obvious reaction on the blue tang but perhaps less white and more
grey/black at the infected points. They all seem quite content and swimming
around since. I have upped the water surface agitation to make up for the
skimmer loss and added some Pimafix
<STOP writing me/us... READ on WWM. WORSE THAN WORTHLESS>
at the fish importer's recommendation to help the raw skin heal. I don't know if
it will do any good so long as it does not harm them but they say it works for
them. Mind you they also said vodka or white vinegar solution directly on the
infection works but will leave that as a last resort.
Regarding the Sweetlips I have found him one of the hardiest fish I have cared
for since had him the past six months. He fed on pellets ravenously from day
one. I have read a lot of people saying they drop dead quite quickly without
reason but six months in he is growing well and has dodged ich when it affected
other fish. I am just concerned he will need a lot more space. I see the Persian
Gulf is the edge of his natural habitat so in a worst case scenario I'd put him
back to sea - as am based in Dubai.
<Don't do this. NEVER return captive organisms to the wild... too much chance of
introducing other undesirables>
So far I would have recommended him to others as a starter fish were it
not for all the chat about how difficult they are on forums. Seeing as they seem
a rarity in the US perhaps they were just caught with too much cyanide and
didn't last long. The local Filipino fish shop owner always say they are a very
strong fish and easy to feed. Time will tell. Thanks for all your help, really
appreciate it and will get the recommended book, I did a fair bit of reading of
the Merck Veterinary Manuals which was interesting and a good free resource too
<Ahh; thank you for this>
. Scope might be a tougher purchase in Dubai.
<Mail order if nec. B>
Attn: bob-achilles tang; and Trematode f'
Hey fellow name sharer,
As discussed before, I restarted my 155 fowlr august 4, and the tank has been
cycled since midway point September.
My lfs was having. 25 percent off sale this week, in which I took a purple tang.
It died shortly after, so after explaining situation, he have me the credit to
use on it, and I picked up my two favorite fish, Aussie tusk and an Achilles
Unlike my previous achilles which I killed while trying to quarantine (ammonia)
this one is larger, in the 4 to 5 inch range, and has been at the store since
august. Has not yet showed signs of ich at the store, and I know the
store runs a low level of copper.
<Ah yes; most all LFS do>
Once in my tank, he ate right away, and is very active. Later that night I
noticed just one of his eyes appeared to be foggy (thought it was flukes) but
after More observation, it's a blue tint, on just the one eye. I know after
reading achilles can have some shades of Blue on them, but being it is just one,
I am not sure.
<I wouldn't panic>
My first instinct was a fw dip, or Prazi pro, but looking back at my mistakes,
over reacting, I did nothing.
I know they are sensitive fish, and not cheap, would you say the laid back
approach here is the way to go? Or is one eye always an indication of an issue,
whether it be bacterial, flukes etc.
<I do like dips (short term baths) of pH adjusted freshwater (aerated if RO or
doing a bunch of fishes); with formalin if you have it... for these
(Acanthuroid) fishes. They almost always sport a bunch of Trematodes coming from
the wild; or mixed in with fishes from same>
Thanks again for your time. I hit an all time low this summer with fish trying
to be a hero, and want to change my approach for the better going forward.
<Welcome. B. Fenner>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang 11/29/14
Thanks for the input, always appreciated .
Upon getting home from work early tonight I devoted my time to paying close
attention to the eye of the achilles. These tangs move a lot and often, so
getting a good view is tough.
While looking at this eye, I saw little oval shaped pieces on the eye,
much to my displeasure. I believe them to be flukes. I did not fw dip
this fish in fear if killing it just as what happened with the purple tang a
<As prev. mentioned... I ALWAYS do>
I knew the "just having different eye color" was wishful thinking. I can try to
catch fish tomorrow and fw dip, but I do have about 175 lbs of rock.
Being I am running a therapeutic (sp) level of Cupramine , could I shut My
skimmer off and run one or two courses of Prazi pro as well for the flukes?
<You could... there may be water quality issues from the Prazi killing off a
good deal of Vermes biomass... you might want the skimmer on>
I waited about 6 hours to make sure my eyes weren't fooling me. He also has what
looks like mini seeds (white) on his black body.
<.... sigh... too likely Trematodes as well>
And if caught, for a fw dip, is taking two gallons of fresh ro, pumped with a
strong pump for an hour, pinch of reef buffer the trick? I have a pinpoint but
can throw it a lot further than I can trust it. I just don't want a repeat of
last week . Thanks again and hope your not experiencing the 24 degree weather we
<... no thanks! It's time, perhaps past-time for me to suggest you getting,
using a simple microscope. B>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang
Microscope will look into. What does a good one run these days?
<See my scant input on WWM re... I have a really neat Intel/Mattel QX near hand
that was under a hundred US... up to 400 power, two light sources, USB
Also about the Prazi, it says on bottle to turn off uv and skimmer. With
Cupramine, I didn't know if the Prazi would be a "reducing" agent like a
dechlorinator would, supposedly that makes the copper deadly toxic.
<These do have to be off lest they remove the med.s quickly and for the UV,
result in coating of the lamp or sleeve... hard to remove>
I hope these companies stick those notes on the bottle in cya fashion. I be read
some others using Cupramine( bounded copper) with Prazi.
<Can be used together. Pardon the emboldening but "SHOULD USE IN treatment
tanks", and of course "PREVENTION is far better, vis a vis dips/baths... There's
a bit of disc. re the same the last few days twixt Lemon Tea, myself and others.
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang
Ok. So just to be absolutely sure. When SeaChem says not to mix with reducing
<? Proton donors, electron acceptors? Am an olde ex H.S. chem. and physics
such as ammonia or chlorine removers,
Prazi pro from Hikari would not fall into that category, and would be fine to
<As far as I'm aware; yes>
I am at about .35 level of the Cupramine. My believe and joy would be to extract
cooper after a few more weeks to help the tang ease in without fear of ich,
<It may die from flukes first, or complications thereof really... such as
but at same time, with eye already cloudy, and other fish starting to "head
shake", I may not have a few more weeks to play with.
I can go home tonight, do a 1/3 water change. Knock the copper down to .2, run
some carbon a few hours, and dose with Prazi.
I supposed I am starting to panic, and a war is raging between heart and brain.
I want to exhibit patience, but at the same time do the right thing for my
<When, where in doubt, do nothing... Or better, keep reading, seeking to
understand what's going on; your options>
If I am comprehending effectively so far, and this was your tank, you would
begin the Prazi pro tonight, even with elevated copper levels?
<... not going to repeat myself a fourth time.>
This reminds me of something a college professor told me once, and that is if
you keep looking and reading, you will find contradictions that you might
inadvertently be looking for.
In my case I suppose I was looking/scouring for something telling me you can not
mix Cupramine along with Prazi.
Thank you again for providing your ears and cranium. I feel this hobby is a game
of poker, with much higher stakes!
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang
Hey bob, not sure about the chemistry terms. Here is the excerpt from SeaChem's
Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine™ and then I added Product X and everything
died. What happened?
A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based
medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the
Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.
<Ah yes; Aldehydes can be oxidized...>
This is what I was not sure of. If the was Prazi would fall into the same boat
as the products mentioned.
<No... Look both up on Wiki... Praziquantel is best administered via food/s...
has a short metabolic life. Mode of action is entirely different. B>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang
Thank you bob! That was the one thing holding me back from having confidence. I
now see there should be no interference with Prazi and cupramine.bim assuming
formaldehyde is a reducer, different animal than dewormer.
I know, display tank is far from ideal for dosing Meds. I lost about 2900 in
fish this summer trying to medicate in qt, and have a bit of a bad taste still.
I get out of work in an hour, I plan on feeding real good, water change, shut
off skimmer and uv, (bio pellet reactor leave on?)
<If you'd like... just supplies C>
and dosing Prazi, again 5 days from now and after resuming therapy level of
I feel good now, thanks!!
achilles update; Re flukes 12/3/14
Just wanted to be courteous and give you an update. You did offer sound advice,
and I feel you not knowing the outcome would be unfair.
With that said, I am on day four of the Prazi, and all I can say is "wow".
The Achilles eye has improve 100 percent, and he is starting to eat more, and
seems to be putting on some mass.
Consequently, I have seen some worm like structures floating in the water
column, and other fish, including my aussie tusk, and durgeon trigger, look to
be perfecting there look. The trigger looked okay, but since the induction of
Prazi pro, has had white marks surfacing and falling off his body.
<Not surprising... as you'll see from reading, there are MANY worm parasites...
in aquatic environments, terrestrial...>
I have one more day, will complete a 25 percent water change, and dose one more
time for 5 days. Hopefully that will cut it, but knowing me, I will play it safe
and hit it one more time.
Perhaps the most aggravating part of this whole endeavor is preventing this.
<?... dips, baths... >
My fish had all be quarantined in copper and Prazi, my tank was bleached out and
restarted, and this new Achilles was in the local lfs tank for four months,
seemingly no signs of ich or flukes. (I visit there 2-3 times a week). Why it
snowballed in my tank, I guess the answer is it needed only one to get it
Thanks again Bob. I am trying to be smarter this time around, not a shoot and
ask questions later type. What makes that tough is the dollar sign next to some
of these fish.
<And you for this follow up. Happy holidays. BobF>
Please help. Long term copper exposure; fluke trtmt.
I am at a loss as I have had a fish tank with a Blueface Angel,
Majestic Angel, Emperor Angel, two Ocellaris Clownfish and a Regal Tang.
I had been treating for an outbreak of ICH some three months ago which
had gone but left the Cupramine at 0.5 for several months
<Detrimental to have fishes exposed for such a long time to copper>
as I was hoping to add another fish. However the Majestic, BlueFace and
Emperor became blotchy and twitching from side to side. I therefore did
an 80% water change with fresh seawater fearing it might be the long
term exposure to the Cupramine
<Yes; at least>
however the fish are getting worse. The Ocellaris and Regal Tang are
totally unaffected and it cannot be Ich, flukes etc due to the Copper
<Uh, no... Copper does not effectively kill Trematodes. Read here:
I would administer a purposeful Anthelminthic as gone over...>
and I would have thought if it was Ich the Regal Tang would be showing
I have had the Majestic and Blueface for around 18 months and the
Emperor for 6 months so really do not want them to die.
<... sampling, 'scope use... The only means of effectively ascertaining
what you're dealing with here. Perhaps pay for a download (on Amazon) of
Ed Noga's Fish Treatment book for background and SOPs>
Any ideas please as I am stuck for a reason.
<A bit more reading>
Thank you in advance, Adam.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and
Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment 6/6/14
I've attached a video I recorded from my microscope of some skin/gill
scrapings. To be honest I'm not sure if anything looks like what I see
in reference books. The video is shot with a 40x lenses and the USB
eyepiece is 10x. At 100 or 200x I can't see anything moving, but at 400x
I can see all sorts of activity. I'm not sure if this is parasites or
just bacteria and microfauna instead?
<Too big to be bacteria...>
There is one larger object which appears to be alive and moving, but not
sure if that might be a fluke?
<Might be... I think I see a haptor...
Video linked here:>
I don't see anything that looks like Velvet or Ich.
If you have any guidance on what this might be (if anything (I'd
appreciate it) or if you want me to take a different type of sample let
me know. I do have a staining kit and oil immersion, just haven't done
much of this before.
<Google: Trematode haptor... B>
Re: Marine Velvet / Ich and Chloroquine/Hypo Treatment
I'm going to try to catch some other fish and see if I can take some
additional slides to check if I see any similar critters on other fish,
or if it was just unique. That said, do you think that this warrants any
treatment e.g. Praziquantel in the DT or removing them entirely for
treatment--or is this harmless? Still researching what others say about
<There is/are some invertebrate group/s that are affected negatively....
OTOH, nice to get rid of Flukes off host as well. IF not to much
"trouble", I'd catch all fishes; treat in isolation; allow the
main/display to go fallow for a couple weeks>
I started removing the Chloroquine from the tank since it's been in
there for about 6 weeks now and I don't see any ick/velvet. Gonna keep
the tank at hypo levels for now to make sure that I don't see any
resurgence of other parasites. I'm wondering the Chloroquine was the
culprit on starting to fray the fins on a few fish since I had it
present for so long.
<Could well be. You can see this implication on the archived accounts of
CP use on WWM>
Thanks much as always!
<And you; B>
fluke update; plus
Prazi, Pomacanthid dis f's
I believe it is about a week since we last spoke. Since then, about 8
days ago, I have used Prazi pro on my tank, turning off my skimmer and
Both angelfish, the blue face, and French angel, whom each had one
clouded eye, have improved 100 percent. Both eyes are now clear, and
they are both eating.
So I believe it is safe to say, I did have a fluke infestation,
<VERY common w/ wild-caught angels... Should ALWAYS be treated
prophylactically by importers... The better wholesalers do this...
sometimes a few of the collectors>
that probably killed the last 4 angelfish I had in the last 8 weeks. My
plan is to run it a few more days, totaling ten days, and then pulling
it out getting skimmer and bio pellet reactor back online.
My question is, the blueface, although he is eating, and both of his
eyes are now clear, looks to have some type of abrasion under his
Looks kind of like someone took a scalpel, and removed about a 1/2 inch
by 1/2 portion of his skin.
<Perhaps residual... from the Flukes and/or treatment>
My first guess was the flukes ate away at that area, but in reality this
pretty much happened after 2-3 days of treating the tank. My next guess
was some type of secondary bacterial infection. After scrolling the web
a couple of days, I really do not know, and therefore I am unsure if I
let it go, or pull him out and use some type of antibiotic on him.
<I'd leave off on further med.s>
Is this common with flukes, especially after treatment has already
<Not uncommon. BobF>
Re: fluke update
Glad to hear that. From what I understand, they were from QM, however,
all they need is to come to my local lfs, go in same tank with someone
who has flukes.
I am not one to believe in coincidences, so I have a hard time thinking
the eyes just happen to clear up simultaneously, just 48 hours after
I suppose its bad new and good news, knowing I treated it, but also bad
knowing I lost quite a few fish most likely because of flukes, and I
didn't treat properly then.
I have another question, different topic, so I will send it in a
help-angelfish. Using WWM; SW, hlth., flukes
A week or two ago I had emailed you about my continuous issue with
keeping angelfish. Well after all my other fish were doing great, I
decided to pick up a blue face angel (4 inches) and a 5 inch French
angel. They were voracious eaters the first week, everything from PE
Mysis, clam, krill, Nori, spectrum pellets and squid.
Well the last two days, each one of these angel fish has one cloudy eye.
If I look super close at the eye, I can see little objects on eye that
look like miniature contact lenses.
<... put in the WWM search tool: Angel cloudy eye.>
I am almost positive this is eye flukes (Neobenedenia?). I am also
pretty sure this is what took over on my previous angelfish I have had.
I did a PH, temp adjusted freshwater dip, for about 8 minutes, but it
appears that wasn't enough.
Rather than lose a now 3rd batch of expensive angelfish, I am
contemplating using Prazi pro on the tank. From what I have read, people
have used it in reef tanks safely, and this is a fish only tank.
My question is, I just started using bio pellets about 2 weeks ago to
help nitrates. Occasionally since using them, I have gotten mild
bacterial blooms, where my ph fell from 7.9 to 7.7 (most likely due to
oxygen being used by bacteria). The Prazi says to turn skimmer off,
however, I feel I need that, certainly now for increased oxygen. Do you
think I can leave skimmer on, and to just take cup off to allow bubbling
water to return to sump?
<And the two words: Eye Flukes. B>
Re: help-angelfish 5/4/14
Typically before I email you anything, I spend at least two days reading
WWM and other various sources. I then think hard and through, and if I
still am left guessing, that is when I break out the email.
I see in most cases, with one cloudy eye, it is best left alone, and to
improve on its own.
I would love to do that, but my recent track history shows these fish
succumb to whatever it is in my tank, rather than improve. Perhaps I am
just no good at keeping angelfish.
<Mmm; I don't believe in such notions>
So this was more of me reading on RC, TRT, etc, of people experiencing
the same issue, using Prazi, and happy with the results.
In hindsight, I strongly regret acquiring these fish. If my lfs would
even take them back for free, let along, say 10 percent store credit, I
would jump all over that. But he doesn't, so I want to try and make it
All said and done, I feel this is my best plan. However, with the
implementation of the bio pellets, that I felt would help me long term,
I know am having some bacterial blooms, which rob o2 levels.
The thing I am unsure of what to do is, leaving skimmer on, just pouring
out of neck, to ensure better o2 levels.
<A good idea; adjunct to any treatment mode>
And now that I write this, in observing the tank, I can also tell you
the blue face has one frayed fin. I have never seen anyone harass the
fish, and it was not there last night before the lights went out, and I
turned them on this morning.
Again, I would love to have it take care of itself, but for some reason
that notion in the past 12 weeks cost me >$1000
Thanks again, sorry for the frustration.
<Take your time... B>
Re: help-angelfish 5/5/14
Sounds good, Robby.
I will leave skimmer on, just open the gate valve wide open and have it
circulate back into sump.
Once in, how long before the flukes start to pop off would you guess?
<... depends on species and treatment. Immediately to a few days>
If a few days (day, hours?) go by, and they are still there, than would
it be safe to assume the cause is not flukes, or perhaps the product is
<Good question (as I don't know a/the answer). I would assume either the
product is defective, OR the test manner, OR that these were not
Trematodes, OR whatever was there was not treat-able per the first and
second stmt. B>
Angelfish ; stkg. mortalities
Emailed you before about various topics. This next question is more of
your opinion than an black or white matter.
In my FO system of 155 gallons, I successfully keep an Achilles tang,
Powder Blue tang, Aussie Tusk, Sailfin Tang, Green Bird wrasse and a
Maculiceps. My parameters are good (1.022 sg, 79 degrees F, Nitrite 0,
Amm. 0, and Nitrates 40. I have in my opinion plenty of flow (2 return
pumps @ 600 gph after head pressure, and an MP40 wavemaker) I use a UV
light and oversized Protein skimmer. I also use only RO water.
For some reason, I can not keep angelfish alive. In the past
month, I have tried a Queen Angel, Koran Angel, French Angel, and a
Scribbled angel (albeit at different times) and have lost them all
within a week. The seem to follow the same fate, they eat really good,
and slowly develop cloudy eyes, random body spots (not Ich) and surely
My only guesses as to why are 1. overcrowding, 2. Source of these angel
fish. However, they all come in looking fine and eating.
<Mmm; and the other fishes listed... would not likely harass these
In your opinion, are angel fish just so hit or miss, that anything
happens, or is there something I am missing? I feed Nori, 2 full sheets
<Not much food value; good for filler for tangs>
Spectrum Thera Pellets, and frozen once a day. This consist of PE Mysis,
squid, krill, clams and frozen angel and butterfly formula (san fran
brand). I also soak frozen in Selcon twice a week. I do 15 percent water
changes weekly, and have about 70 lbs of live rock.
Any suggestions or thoughts would be invaluable.
<I'd try a better source... maybe even mail-order (Dr.s F & S)... and
quarantine the new Angel for a week or two. BobF>
Re: Angelfish 4/17/14
Thank you, Bob.
One minor detail I did leave out, is upon death of the Angel fish, I
removed them at once, and placed in fresh RO water, (more so to preserve
fish until I find suitable grave, as opposed to letting them rot in the
open) and have discovered some fluke like objects popping off.
<Likely are/were Trematodes... easily defeated/removed via pH adjusted
FW (plus formalin if I were doing it) dips...>
Not many, I have seen much heavier infestations in fish that are alive.
However they are there, and I do not see them on my other fish, even
while FW dipping. Are flukes always present in the fish, and that is
normal, or could this have been the silent killer.
<... there are some flukes that are more family, genus, even species
specific. I'd be reading on WWM re... perhaps the use of cleaner
Fluke surviving Muelleri Butterflyfish in QT with bacterial
infections (?) 10/13/13
<Good eve Sarah>
A friend of mine recommended you with the highest regard. I've
attached a cell phone picture (I don't have a regular camera, sorry) of
the affected area on my Butterflyfish. I've had him 15 months, he
eats live blackworms and a homemade frozen seafood blend.
Parameters are good in the quarantine.
The photo: Below the glare line in the middle brown stripe the lesion
like area is visible. There is some redness, the scales are raised,
inflammation is visible from the profile view and there are a couple
white apparatus' attached next to the inflammation. The white apparatus
will begin small and hard like, very bright white and after a couple
days grows larger and more flesh like, hangs off the fish (can visibly
see it moving as he swims) and then falls off. Above the glare line is
an example of one that can be seen moving in the current as the fish
swims. A 5 min fw dip didn't seem to affect the area.
<... have you looked at this material under a 'scope?>
I dosed Kanamycin into the water 2 days ago, also have been feeding in
frozen food. It seems too early to know if it's working.
Currently, the fish is eating, but hiding in his pvc most of the
Additionally, he had a lower jaw (inside the mouth) infection that is
Thank you for your time.
<I suspect the white material is simply "mucus" (body slime)... an
exudate... from...? Not curable w/ antibiotics, nor
Do you suspect there is a parasite here? I would move this fish back to
the main/display system. Bob Fenner>
Re: Fluke surviving Mueller Butterflyfish in QT
with bacterial infections (?) 10/14/13
Thank you, Bob. I've been actively looking for someone to look under a
'scope, although, I'm concerned about increasing the fish's stress level as
he's been in hiding except for feeding time for several days.
<You are wise here... life is indeed "a series of compromises", and you are
right to consider the trade-off in handling this (or any) specimen>
This fish has undergone 17 days Praziquantel treatment (unsuccessful)
followed by 23 days Formalin, which I believe, effectively eliminated the
<... am very surprised it didn't eliminate the fish>
I feel the lesions/mouth infection are some sort of secondary ailment - i
have read flukes are like portals for other diseases.
I do not know if there's some sort of parasite at this time.
<Highly unlikely... grossly appears to be "sores"...>
The fish's name is Ziggy.
<"Ziggy played guitarrrrrrrr" Bowie>
I appreciate your time.
<And I everyone's. BobF>