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Puffer and Cupramine
5/27/15
Mappa puffer help, 2/2/10
Puffer in Quarantine 6/21/07 Hi Bob
and Crew; First, of course, I want to thank you for the service that
you provide to the Aquarium Hobby. As a refresher, the tank is 90 Gal
FOWLR, Corner Overflow with a Tidepool 2 Sump, Tunze DOC 9005 Skimmer
in sump (not collecting much skimmate), Prizm Skimmer in tank (actually
working very well). Tank, being repopulated after sitting fallow for 6
weeks following an Ich outbreak, currently contains only a 10 inch
Snowflake Moray. I currently have a Dog face puffer in quarantine (only
20 gal), where s/he has been for about 12 days. I feed the Puffer every
other day, with a feeding stick, so nothing remains in the tank
uneaten. The problem I am having is keeping Nitrates down in the QT
tank, even with daily 50% - 75% water changes. In fact, the DFP chooses
to "poop" right after the water change, which doesn't
help the Nitrates. Based on the fact that the Puffer appears free of
external parasites, but must be suffering from the Nitrates, would you
curtail the QT and add him/her to the display, or would you wait 30
days? Thanks Again. Roy <I would end the quarantine, dip this fish
in transit and place this Tetraodont. BobF> I have a quick question about hyposalinity and my dog face puffer 5/19/07 Hey guys, great site! I have a quick question about hyposalinity and my dog face puffer. He has come down with a case of Ick (lucky... he is the only one), <Ah, no... your system is infested... all fishes "have"... Just sub-symptomatically at present> so I moved him from his 100 gallon main tank to a 30 gallon with live sand and rock (worried about ammonia here as he is a pretty big guy). Right now I have the spg at around 1.019. I know that copper is not a good treatment for him as he is scaleless, but I also know that hyposalinity can kill too, (not to mention it's not always a permanent solution to Ick). <Agreed> I was wondering if I should A: leave him in his QT with normal salinity and give him FW dips <No...> or B: slowly bring salinity down to 1.010 and risk killing biological filtration? <Not either...> Maybe I should try a different cure? <Bingo!> Also, I will be moving in two weeks. My plan is this: remove all livestock from 100 gallon (wrasse, niger trigger, df puffer who is in qt, and two damsels) and put into qt tanks for 45 days. This should kill any Ick that might be lurking in my sand/rock, right? <Maybe> Then my plan is to give everyone (except the puffer) a one week <Not long enough...> copper treatment (preventative strike), bag them up, and move them 20 minutes down the road to my new place. I would then put them back (one every two days starting with the puffer) into the newly re-set main tank. Do you think that will prevent them form getting Ick? Thanks, and any advice you want to throw in would be helpful! -Jay <I do have helpful advice... For you to READ what is posted on WWM... For Crypt and in particular Puffers and Crypt... Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm scroll down to the royal blue line... Bob Fenner> Puffers and copper 2/6/06 It says on your site
not to ever treat puffers with copper. <Some folks say...>
I had my tank at better than 1.5ppm (CopperSafe)
for 3 months and my map and dogface are no worse for the
wear as far as I can tell. I just bought a starry
puffer who was doing great the first day but now seems a
little lethargic and not eager to eat. My copper level
is at 1.0 (less than a true therapeutic dose) but I'm
concerned that it may be effecting his health. <... sub-therapeutic
doses do more harm than good> I'm going to get
all the copper out of my tank once I get a golden puffer but
I don't want to invite another Ich infection before
that. Your input would be appreciated. Greg
<Quarantine, don't crowd... Bob Fenner> Dogface Puffer is shriveling and shrinking Hello, I have been coming and reading your many of the answers to my questions on your website and it has been extremely helpful. My dogface puffer is in trouble. He was suffering from Ich. I put him in a hospital tank and began treating him with Formalin-3. <Very toxic as am sure you're aware> First, my water levels are fine. He is in a 10 gal hospital tank. Before treating I would do a 40-50% water change. I followed the directions on the bottle for medicating the hospital tank. I used natural light. I get plenty of natural light in the room where the tank is. I did this for 7 days. He was doing great! The Ich appeared to be gone and he was eating well. He was very active and doing fine. On day eight, I stopped the treatment. Tested water. ammonia <2 ppm, 0 nitrates, 0 nitrites. On day eight, he stopped eating. He looks as though he suffered a stroke. His eyes are sunken. Caudal fin is folded in and it seems he can't seem to unfold. He looks frightening thin and shriveled/shrunken. He tries to open his caudal fin and it seems painful for him. The stomach is extremely inverted and shrunken. He is losing his color and becoming blotchy. What could be wrong? I think he going to die. Should I euthanize? He looks so terrible and seems to be suffering. Help <I would hold off on euthanizing this specimen, but want to state here that I also would not treat marine fishes with formalin as anything other than an extended dip/bath... Please see here re: http://wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm. Your puffer has been poisoned... hopefully it will recover. Bob Fenner> Porcupine Puffer & Medications Hello there! I am hoping you can clarify something for me, we recently had a "spike" in nitrates in our saltwater fish tank. All fish came down with Ich, which has seemed to subside after several dips in freshwater & Methylene blue. <"Subside" is a good term... the causative organism is very likely still present> Now, we are running into what seems to be a fungal infection. <Very likely secondary... from the medication, handling above> Last night we noticed our porcupine puffer has severe cloud eye in both eyes and has lost his appetite, and our blue tang is coming down with same. It seems to be spreading to all fish rapidly. Last night we performed at 30% water change. I have read several articles about how to treat these things & the most common way seems to be with Maracyn 2 - my concern is that this will be hurtful to the health of the porcupine puffer, as they are "scaleless". We have also been treating with Melafix daily. <A product of more than dubious utility here... I would not use it> We are planning to start major treatments tonight. The plan is to treat with recommended Epsom salt @ 1tbs/5 gal in addition to a dosage of Maracyn 2 (all carbon has been removed). This was very sudden, we discovered that one of our test kits was inaccurate, which in return gave us the conclusion to our health problems! All other tests indicate 0: ammonia, nitrite, ph @ 8.0, nitrate @ 40. Water temp has been raised to 80 - I know there are several articles addressing different issues, my largest concern right now is the Maracyn 2 being harmful to the puffer. Thanks so much, you all are truly wonderful & a necessity to the hobby! ~The Gilmores <This Mardel product should be okay to use... do monitor your nitrogen cycle and be ready to change out large volumes of water. Bob Fenner> Help with Dogface Puffer Hi Bob, Leslie here. <Hi Leslie, Craig here> You helped me a while back with a tank that had unsuccessfully gone through treatment for Amyloodinium infestations on 3 successive occasions. I asked about microwaving the contents of the tank, my Dad's suggestion..... since I had tried everything else I could think of to kill the darn bug. <I can relate to the desperation!> Anyway...... I have had my Dogface Puffer for about 6 weeks. He is a real looker. Pitch Black with clear black speckled fins and a white caudal fin with black speckles. Several weeks ago he developed some of what I believe to be Ich spots on his pectoral and dorsal fins. I saw him flash a couple of times, nothing continuous. He developed an occasional spot on his body which have disappeared. This is a FO tank 50g. I know small for him, but he is only 4" at this time. I have plans for a bigger tank. The thought of investing in a huge tank for this fish, after all those tank crashes didn't seem to sensible. I figured I will get the BIG tank if I can keep him alive long enough to need one. I hope not a stupid mistake. At the suggestion of a highly respected published friend in the marine community I have been using something called OST....osmotic shock therapy. Are you familiar with this? If so what are your feelings about using it prophylactically in a Q tank as well as to treat parasites? <Lowered SG in conjunction with copper and temp raised to 83F in a QT is the preferred treatment. This is fine if done over time....days.> The recommended specific gravity for FO tanks is 1.010. for 3 to 4 weeks. So I had this guy at that specific gravity for about 3 weeks, when I slowly slowly increased the specific gravity to 1.018 the spots began to appear. He otherwise looks and acts very healthy. The spots have been quite stubborn. I panicked at first because the Amyloodinium outbreaks started like this. I have since increased the temp of the tank....slowly to 80 to 81 degrees, fed garlic laced food and treated the tank with a product called Stop Parasites. The spots look about the same. One of the spots on the pectoral fin is a bit bigger, perhaps looking like 4 or 5 coalescing spots, but not as bright as the other spots. On that fin there is a tiny area at the fin tip directly in line with the bigger spot, that looks like it is worn away, just a very small area. I placed a 15w UV unit with a 90gph flow rate on the tank 3 days ago and FW dipped him last night for 15 min. He did very well......not even phased by it. They look a bit better today. Is it possible this is not Ich or perhaps something in conjunction with Ich? What else would you recommend I do for him. Thank you so much for your help :) Leslie <Yes, remove to quarantine tank and treat with copper @0.25 ppm free copper as above. For more on this go to WetWebMedia.com and enter "copper" into the google search. I wouldn't advise any of the stop parasite type treatments. Craig> Dogface Tummy Ache? My dogface was sick and is still sick,
think velvet ( little white spots, but been treating for ick with
copper sulfate) and he did not eat for a month and a half . Finally he
ate some lettuce and then little fishes(10) and then two
days later he ate some live brine. I was told that since he went for so
long without eating that his stomach would deteriorate and if he did
eat after so long it would kill him. <Hooey> Well my
puffer eats and now he seems to be lazy, turning dark, just sitting on
a rock some them swim some, and just looking very ill. DO you think he
will make it and what advice do you have for me? Dogface puffer Hi, I have a dogface puffer and I noticed his skin is discolored throughout his whole body. He appears to be blotchy and the blotchy areas are very light. <hmmm... is the fish new? Often puffers secrete a lot of mucus and as such attract debris. Still... be observant in the near future/days for the chance of disease> He is eating well and is swimming around freely. I also noticed what appear to be very very tiny white things, about 200 in number, bunched together around my heater. I want to say they are some type of parasite but not exactly sure which one? They swim around the tank freely as well? <definitely not a parasite... too large to be so. Most likely a wonderful and beneficial plankton from a piece of live rock> Can these guys be making my puffer look like crap? <Certainly not> I did a 20% water change on Thursday and they haven't seem to go away. <you'll want to keep these creatures... likely copepods> My salinity is at 1.020 and my temp is 81 degrees F. I have an Amiracle PL2000 wet/dry system with a Polyfilter that I removed while treating my tank. I am on the second day of treating my tank with Oodinex as per the local fish store recommendation. Do you have any idea what the heck is going on? <wow... not only are you targeting the wrong creatures (the plankton swarming by your heater, but the medication you have added to the display has likely contaminated your calcareous substrate (sand, gravel, live rock, coral decorations)... and puffers are scaleless fishes and VERY sensitive to medications like organic dyes. Your puffer is likely being poisoned/sickened by the meds. Do be sure to medicate all fishes in a bare bottomed quarantine tank only... never in a display tank> Will fresh water baths with Formalin 3 help? <FW dips are a very good idea and plain formalin would help... BUT any formalin product with an organic dye like malachite green or Methylene blue will again sicken the puffer> HELP! Thanks, JPK <best regards, Anthony> New Tank Hi, <<And hello to you.>> I am writing to you on behalf my friend who has recently set up (3 months ago) a 120 gallon tank in her office. She added a black dog faced puffer three weeks ago, previous occupants were one gold domino damsel and a cleaner wrasse. Unfortunately, she did not use a QT tank and the next morning before the lights came out noticed white spots on the puffer's stomach where the cleaner was picking; these spots quickly disappeared once the wrasse moved on. Within a week, there were a few spots on the fins, however, the puffer was allowing the wrasse to clean him so we were going to monitor. The few spots on fins have not become worse or better, however, I noticed within the last two days the puffer is only pumping one gill, so this morning we did a 10 minute FW water dip. The odd thing is when I put the puffer in the FW, very white spots came out on the back/stomach area again then went away. A bunch of stuff came off the puffer, and larger whitish things too, maybe it threw up?? <<perhaps... or something from the other end... ;-) >> The puffer really began to stress out at 10 minutes, so I removed from FW dip. The puffer is still not using his gill, and I can still see a few white spots on fins and one little spot of cloudiness on the fin. I never see any other spots on body, other than the two times mentioned that seem to disappear as fast as they appear. <<This is not really abnormal for puffers - their skin is sensitive so you see these things more often.>> Also, the little damsel, has no signs of anything, however, within a few days ago has began to breath heavier and twitch a little, she opens her gills for the wrasse, but the wrasse only cleans the outside body. <<Interesting, but keep the faith - damsels and puffers are quite resilient.>> We went out last night and purchased her a 20 gallon QT tank to get her through this and so she can QT her fish in for a few weeks before releasing into the 120 gallon. <<Good plan.>> I took 15 gallons of water out of my 72 gallon reef which has been set up for a year, and has not had any new additions from for 4 months. I added 5 new gallon mix as well. I tested the water this morning and there are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, nitrates 20, ph 8.3, alk 2.5. <<Sounds like it's ready to go.>> We are going to try and catch the damsel, (which will be hard as this is a FOWLR tank) and the puffer tonight. I thought of using copper in QT tank for the damsel, but, I know I cannot use that with the puffer's scaleless skin. <<Actually, you can, you just need to be cognizant of the fact that the copper will irritate the puffer and cause stress, but probably not more so than the disease already is. If you do choose to use copper, do stay within the recommended dose. If this concerns you, stick with the freshwater dips, perhaps one every other day. These fish are very hardy and should be able to tolerate this regimen.>> I will continue the FW dips daily, but, I feel we will need some medication either in FW dips, or placed in QT tank. <<You could also use formalin or a formalin/malachite green mix like Quickcure.>> Right now all fish are in main tank because, I needed to get water tested in QT tank first. <<I wouldn't be concerned about this if you are set on dosing medications in the QT tank. Reason being that a biological filter would be well-challenged to develop in this situation. Best to know you are in-line for water changes every day in quarantine - perhaps 10-25% daily.>> Please help me with a plan of action.. both fish are absolutely beautiful and we really want them to be ok and need help with treating both simultaneously. Also, please lend advice on the main tank. should we leave alone for 4 weeks with no host or will she need to do hypo salinity? <<I would go for six weeks, and dropping the salinity to 1.018 - 1.019 for a week or two during that time would help as would raising the temperature to about 82F or so.>> As always thanks, Nikki <<You are quite welcome. Cheers, J -- >> Brown blotches on A. hispidus <<Greetings, JasonC here...>> Hello - I just found this site and read a bunch of the old Q&As. Also did some other research and I'm still confused about my sick stars & stripes puffer. I've had him a month, and he puffed up about 2 weeks ago when a bunch of people came by the house. Shortly after, I noticed some brown blotches on his face. They've grown slowly, and now there are some white blotches on his tail. Sometimes in the morning some stringy mucous stuff is hanging on his tail and body. <<These two things, the blotches and the mucus may not be related. Puffers change their color all the time, from light to dark and back again. The mucus may not be such a good sign... something in the tank perhaps stressing it. What else do you have for tank inhabitants?>> He's been eating all right, but this morning he was breathing really heavy so I moved him to a 10 gallon hospital tank. I added some copper because from what I had read it seemed he had a parasite. <<None of the signs you mentioned specifically mean parasites. Breathing heavy in puffers is not all that infrequent - they often take breaks and seem to "sigh", big deep breaths that make it look like they're having trouble when in fact they are just taking a break. Breathing very fast on the other hand, could be parasites in the gills. The copper is not necessarily your best, first choice when treating a puffer... their smooth skin and lack of scales make them especially sensitive to the condition of the tank water, and the copper is a major irritant for them.>> Now I'm not so sure what to do next. <<I would start with pH-adjusted, freshwater dips - http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm >> I'm at work and want to go home to make sure he's still alive! Thanks for any help. Your book "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" got me started - great work! Brian <<Ahh, Bob will appreciate your kind words. Cheers, J -- >> Puffer problems Hello, gentlemen. <Cheers, dear...
Anthony Calfo in your service> Alas, I have to call on you yet again
for advice. <our pleasure to try to help> I've had my dogface
puffer for several weeks now, but he's just not quite acting right.
He has a voracious appetite <lots of hard shelled foods,
right? Shell on shrimp, crabs, crayfish... all a must for nutrition and
tooth wear> and loves to pick at my live rock, but occasionally he
gets all splotchy and 'curls up' and rests under one of the
powerheads or the return. He also occasionally closes one of his gills
for a few minutes at a time. <yes... easily could be evidence
of a parasitic attack> At one point, before he ate all the Caulerpa,
he would approach a 'root' of Caulerpa and deliberately lodge
it in his gill and then just sit there for a few minutes.
<hmmmm?> Obviously, something is bothering him, but he has no
spots and has been acting like this for quite a while. <no
spots needed if gill fluke or tiny protozoans...> I feed him Garlic
Elixir on a daily basis <hmmm... a lot of people standing in line
behind me to tell you that garlic is weakly effective or entirely
useless for fishes...> and have given him several freshwater dips
for 10-15 minutes at a time, <now that was an excellent
idea!> but he has not improved -- not gotten any worse, though,
either. I really don't want to copper him, and I've read
conflicting info on using copper and metallic dyes on scaleless
fish. <no contest... can't and should not use on this
puffer> Is there anything else I can try without resorting to
medicating him in a quarantine tank? <it is my advice alas
since the long FW dips have not helped... this parasite is deep in the
flesh> Perhaps an extended freshwater dip or a medicated dip?
<you may try medicating more baths (5-7 in 7 days) with Formalin...
double strength as per manufacturers recommendation for a tank dose>
Thanks in advance for your help. By the way, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
are all at 0, pH is 8.2, temp is 78, sg is 1.023. My three other fish
in the tank are doing great. <all reasonably good. You may wish to
lower the salinity slightly (increased O2 if nothing else) and raise
the pH slightly 8.3+> Karen <best regards, Anthony> Sick puffer I had a question before and you seemed to
help....once again I need some help. I have a orange tail puffer, he
hasn't eaten in 15 days (3 days in main tank, 12 days in hospital
tank) I've treated twice with marcyn2 and Piperazine (anti
parasite/ dewormer) still not eating I've tried all kinds of food,
he swims by it but wont eat it what can I do, will he die????? <have
you tried small live shrimps? Even live brine temporarily to jump start
the stomach?> I'm getting hopeless, I only have one other fish,
a clown and today he has a whitish film in a circle on his lower jaw
(should I worry) <hmm... possibly and ectoparasite/protozoan... why
the range of sickness over so many weeks? Are there temperature
fluctuations of more than a couple of degrees between night and day...
do check for such swings (not just the temp at the same time every
day)> My two other fish in the tank died, so should I get new fish
this soon? they all seem to get parasites. I don't know about the
puffer or the clown? <hmmm... do invest in a 10 or 20 gallon
hospital tank (read about quarantine tanks in the WWM archives on this
site). It is really critical that all new and sick fish be quarantined
to avoid problems such as this> 55 gal fish only Fluval 304 ph 8.3
sal. 1.019 dual flour. strip please any help on what to do? Bryan
<any medication necessary can/should be done in QT. Do check to see
if the recent meds have not wreaked havoc on your biological filter
(test for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate) Best regards, Anthony> Sick fish/Puffer Blotchiness Yes, using Cupramine and testing twice a day. Holding it at 0.4, salinity at 1.015 just to make it easier. <heavy on the copper IMO> I haven't continued the dips, but will look at seeing if I can do another one. <that are FAR more effective than copper against a much wider scope of parasites... please dip more> Was hoping to determine what the pathogen is/was and then continue. <I wish I could help, but sight unseen is difficult to diagnose> I haven't seen that Amyloodinium or Brooklynella was visible, but have heard that flukes are. But flukes are supposedly long and thin when they fall out of the gills and don't really affect the fins. <you have much better vision that I do... most people could not easily spot a gill fluke (understatement)> So yes, I am a bit stumped as I plainly saw white little spots coming off of him. Literally just appearing out of nowhere and hanging off of his fins and skin until he moved a bit and shook them off. They were floating in and on top of the water in a quantity of 100-150. He did have a few spots on one of his eyes, and those fell off as well. Perhaps a crypto infection restricted to the gills - so not as visible ? But my understanding is that crypto doesn't really hit the gills until the last stages. . <Not always the case> May try another 5-10 minute dip. <5 minutes minimum> He doesn't lazily swim around, but kind of turns his face a stressed out blue, and lies on the bottom and doesn't move. <still doesn't sound bad to me... as a wholesaler, I have FW dipped many thousands of fishes in a decade> But yes, I know spitting out of the water is a very bad sign. <indeed> Jim <kind regards, Anthony> Thank you Anthony (Golden Puffer) Hi Anthony! <cheers, friend> I wanted to give you my success story for helping me out with my Golden puffer. I know you get a lot of emails so I don't expect you to remember but I'm sure its nice to get to hear some of the success your fans have in the great advice you offer. <absolutely... thank you!> I had a puffer with I believe marine velvet. I put him in a hospital tank with Maracyn and freshwater dipped him five times for fifteen minutes, like you said. <excellent... a durable fish that can benefit by these longer dips> Amazing, someone else told me to dip him for only one minute and thirty seconds and put copper in my tank. <wow... it would have been hard to find less accurate advice short of "scrape the parasites off with a spoon!" Heehee...> I even saw some worms in the bucket after I dipped him. He is clean as a whistle now. He looks fantastic, not a speck on him. He ate a whole shrimp last night soaked in Selcon and garlic. He loved it! <all well and good, he's on his way!> One thing. I'm not sure but he might have a slight air bubble. He spends a lot of time at the top of the tank when he rests. He is able to swim to the bottom and play around but he eventually floats to the top. It is not a noticeable bubble. I had this happen with a puffer once before that was noticeable and it rolled around but eventually resolved itself. <yes... exactly. Common and usually works itself out... but sometimes needs help> I assume even though I was careful this might have happened when dipping. <yup> Poor puffer. He is very happy now though. But is there anything I can do about the bubble? <yup... if you feel like it is not going to be purged easily, net the puffer (with a soft nylon cloth net... not course green mesh) and gently grip him through the net (watch your fingers!)... all done under water. Then orient the little bugger mouth upwards while it squirms. Often this will help a puffer to burp the air out. Else, you could let it out of water a bit to gulp a little more air to collect the small bubble for a bigger burp later <G>. Last ditch effort is a hypodermic needle. Do consult us further on this if all else fails. Likely not a big deal.> I cant tell you how much I appreciate your help, you saved his life, and we have bonded through this ordeal. He likes me to pet him now. My only resort to calming him while dipping. I'm letting my main tank stay at 84degrees and salinity at 1.016 and also the puffer in the hospital tank. Is this necessary and for how long? <Hmmm... after two weeks of disease free symptoms I would keep him another two weeks but I would definitely bring the temperature down very slowly to a more comfortable 78-80F. More oxygen, etc> Thanks again Anthony, You've helped me more than you know. <my pleasure! Best regards, Anthony Calfo> Dogface puffer problems! Hi Anthony, I am sorry to keep
bothering you about this puffer but I really don't know what to
do. <no worries> He had ich which I treated by using
CopperSafe, Maracyn 2 and fresh water baths daily (6 days) for 7
minutes each. <excellent on the FW dips> On the fifth day
of treatment, he appeared to be fine, not a sign of ich on his body!
The next day I noticed what appeared to be little pimples on his sides.
The next day he developed ich again with 3 dots: one on his belly fin,
one on his gill, and one on his eye. I immediately did a fresh water
bath when I noticed these last night. I did another FW bath this
afternoon, and now at about 8pm, it seems he is starting to develop
more pinhead white dots. Now there are about 8 scattered throughout his
body, but the one on his eye disappeared. <indeed some are
virulent. Lets add a product like Quick Cure (Aquarium Products brand)
to FW dip at double dose (this is a malachite & formalin med)>
He is eating like a pig and his eyes are clear. <excellent and
helpful> I don't know what to do? I purchased an Amiracle PL
2000 wet/dry system last night with a UV sterilizer and the
wet/dry, <do research the FAQs about making the most of your
UV and know that it IS NOT likely to cure such Ich infections> after
setup, started to leak. I will be getting the new one at the end of
this week. What do you recommend I treat my tank with to get rid of
this annoying problem? <I apologize that I cannot remember the
specifics of the tank, but if there is gravel in this tank that is
large part of the problem (festering cysts/larvae) and the reason why
we so strongly advocate bare bottomed QT tanks (reduces the rate of
infection and re-infection)> Can I use OODINEX? <hmmm... do wait,
this is a rather hostile med for a scaleless fish> Please
HELP!!!!!!!!! thanks for everything, Jason<nest regards, Anthony
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