Circulation problems continued....
Thanks Adam!
  My only concern with dead spots is that crap accumulates there, Cyano grows there and just below the surface the sand is black and smells like H2S. << Well it isn't bad for detritus to accumulate, nor for some Cyano to grow.  But the H2S is usually a bad sign.  So I'm surprised by that. >> With good flow all three don't happen. BTW, I'm replacing the Remora with a Remora Pro. Hope this helps with the Cyano without skimming too much. I want some dissolved organics for the desirable algae and coral. << Yes, it is good though to remove much of the nutrient load.  Having everything suspended (since you don't have dead spots) allows for good skimming action.  I'd also consider a filter sock.  I don't use one, but it may help here. >>
Narayan
<<  Blundell  >>

Water Movement 10/-3/03
I read the article on how to have proper water movement, but I'm unsure if my setup will do the job. I have a 50 gal.(36 x 15 x 20) aquarium with an AquaClear 300, and two Eheim powerheads, each pushing 176 gph. I have a 652 gph of total water movement, but
the placement is my concern. I have the AquaClear in the left-middle on top. One powerhead is in the upper left hand corner pushing to the lower right, and I have the other powerhead in the lower-right, pushing straight back to the other powerhead. I think the AquaClear 300 is pushing too much water for the powerhead next to is for it to have any effect. Should I move it lower? I just want to make sure I do this right, since it's very important once I have my corals involved in the picture. You guys are all awesome!
Thank you in advance!
<I wish I could help you, mate... but we have no way of answering this question. Pump placement is not about a standardized local (upper left, forward right, etc)... it is entirely case by case as influence by the individual rockscape you have designed. You simply need to adjust all such devices until you get a convergence that creates random turbulent water flow in the tank with few spots for detritus to accumulate. Very much and eyeball adjustment process. Best regards, Anthony>

Carlson Surge Device - 2/23/04
Hey Pauly, this link is no good>>> http://www.breedersregistry.gen.ca.us/Reprints/MFM/v11_aug96/simple_surge.htm
<Try now:
http://www.breeders-registry.gen.ca.us/Reprints/MFM/v11_aug96/simple_surge.htm Needed the dash! Who woulda thunk?? Paulo>

5 gallon circulation alternatives
Which of the four alternatives do you like best? Any other alternatives? Sump flow rate goal?
<Not an issue.>
Total flow rate goal?
<This is the requirement that is important, as it is in the main tank we need the circulation/water movement.>
I am setting up a 75 gallon AGA reef ready with 30 gal sump, TurboFlotor 1000.
<Cool! Not our fave skimmer, but acceptable. Look at Euro-reef and Aqua-C, much more efficient.>
The overflow is good for 600gph or less I believe. I am trying to find the best alternative to increase total circulation to acceptable level for mixed reef tank. With 4x96w PC SPS or clams are unlikely. I have purchased an Iwaki MD30RLT (510 gph) not the higher flow RXLT (ok, so my first mistake). I plan on trying one of the new Squid wave makers, may be my second mistake.
<You need at least 750 gph up to 1500 depending on inhabitants. Plan on more and turn it down if needed, use pump flow charts and factor in a healthy pump size increase to get the desired flow. Also use larger pipe throughout, you won't be disappointed.>
- Alt1 Use one predrilled hole for return line and the larger one for drain to sump and add powerheads in tank. Looks bad, failure issues, heat, looks bad.
<Yep, looks bad, works bad.>
- Alt 2 Drill additional return holes in side for closed loop systems. Tank is in basement already so trip back to the glass shop (if I can find one) not appealing.
<Or in bottom. Depends on if glass is tempered on the sides or not. Sandblasting works. A good choice with obvious considerations for you as stated. Best for desired flow, depending on flow rate allowed in option 4.>
- Alt 3 Amiracle or DIY hang on to feed the closed loop system. Of course I got a reef ready so I did not have to use a hang-on.
<Un-reliable in power outages, require powerheads to resolve siphon loss when power comes on. You have better options.>
- Alt 4 Use both predrilled holes as outlets and plumb returns over the top. Might still not be enough flow and I am not sure how the overflow would react to a larger flood over the top.
<A good option depending on flow rate. You don't give me the pipe size for these, so go to one of the WetWebMedia.com sponsors like Foster and Smith, and look at add-on overflow boxes and the passive flow rate they get from various size plumbing. Yours will do the same, but be conservative and assume the flow will be a hair less.  Add both flow rates together (for both pipes as drains) to see if it approaches what you need (anywhere from 1000-1500 GPH combined would be great). I think the overflow will handle it fine, do check out Durso set-ups and venting to increase flow and reduce noise. Plumbing the returns with a manifold and inlets over the top is not difficult and can be kept out of sight. Again, go much larger on plumbing then you think you need. Some pumps with 1" outlets only get full flow delivery with up to 2" pipe. Plan accordingly and use valves to reduce flow if needed.  Have fun with your new system!  Craig>

Water flow and carbon use 3/11/03
Dear Anthony: Thanks for the prompt reply.
<Always, welcome>
The powerhead (211 GPH) is approx. 1.0' & at a 45 degree angle from the gorgonian.
Water params:
-------------
0-5ppm NO3, 0-5ppm NO4, 0ppm NH4, 8.2 - 8.4 PH, 78-80 F TEMP., 4.0 meq ALK,1.025 SPG, 380ppm CA.
NO ACTIVATED CARBON.
WATER CHANGES: 15% WEEKLY.
LIGHT: 2X 55W PC (1 x 10,000K actinic, 1 x 7700K white)
<With only 15% water changes weekly, you really need to use carbon regularly to have any chance at maintaining water clarity for optimal light penetration. You might consider an additional power head to oppose the first one to create random turbulent water flow... laminar is harmful or at least not helpful to most corals. All else looks very fine to me :) Anthony >

Added circulation
Hi All,
I have a 75 gallon reef in which I have supplemented water movement with the addition of a single powerful PRO4 powerhead near the surface.  For the most part, I can tell I have enough current by the waving of my xenia, gorgonians and other soft corals.  However, near one side of my tank I have some button
polyps that are barely swaying and particulate matter just seems to slowly float by in that area.  I even have some spots where debris likes to settle on the live rock and brown Cyanobacteria often grows on my cabbage coral and gorgonian. I tried moving the filter outputs around, but this compromised surface turbulence.
Should I add more current?  I am concerned with the aesthetic implications of doing so, or adding too much current!  Should I have so much current that my polyps are vigorously swaying?  If they're not swaying should I be concerned?  
<Sounds like you need more circulation and perhaps a look into improving nutrient export/maintenance. I would add the powerhead to pay particular attention to the low flow area. Gauge success in placement by the results from your inhabitants and whether the Cyano returns.>
I know this maybe kind of a silly question, but I am on a quest to learn for optimal conditions in my reef and the last time I added a new power head, my mushrooms started flopping around and did not open up all the way.  Not to mention my gorgonian looked like it was in a hurricane storm.
<The Gorgonian probably wasn't affected but the mushrooms did! Place the powerhead according to your inhabitants and their needs.>
Thoughts as always much appreciated.
Regards, Steve Bihari
<Cheers, Craig>

- Water flow and circulation for 150G FO -
Hi All,
<And hello to you, JasonC here...>
I am converting a 150G soft coral reef tank to 150G FOWLR tank. I have a lot of fish in there but I am in transition in finding new homes for the small reef fishes. Also adding the new ones as I go.
I know that water flow should be high in reef tanks but how much should I keep in a fish -only system? <I'd keep things equally high...> Is there something like 5x or 10x like thing about fish-only systems. <10x is good to shoot for.>
Here are my new fish that will reside in the tank:
- Harlequin Tusk
- Emperor Angel (Bad call on my part. Needs to go back to LFS) <Would be fine in a 150.>
- Picasso Trigger
- Pyramid Angel
- Rabbitfish (double-black mark one)
I have kept some mushrooms, toad stools and softies like colts to give a little better aquascape but please let me know if you think that some of these have no chance in there. <Nah... sounds like a good list to me.> Any suggestions on keeping some cleanup crew or inverts. <Get them in there first.> Shrimp are of course a snack for the tusk. <Eventually, yes...> Any alternatives? <To a cleaner shrimp? Neon gobies - likewise, get them in there first.> Have heard about UV sterilizers a lot. Do you think having a UV in there is something I should consider. <Sure, for about two minutes and then forget about it.>
Regards,
Razi Burney
<Cheers, J -- >

FOWLR Circulation set-up
Hello WWM Crew!
I need some help for my 125-gallon (72"x18"x18") FOWLR potential set-up.  I have an acrylic tank with 1 corner overflow.  The overflow has a 1" bulkhead attached, with a hose going down to a wet/dry.  I havea Mag Drive 9.5 in the wet/dry as a return pump, which delivers 800 gph with a 4' head.  From some of your feedback to other aquarists, it sounds like that Iprobably could only get 300 gph through that overflow bulkhead.  So it appears that my return pump will be too much for one overflow to handle.  Am I correct in this conclusion?  What would happen with this scenario?
<It will overflow onto your floor!  I wouldn't do that! A 1" drain will theoretically drain approx. 600 gph. so you need another drain/overflow, larger bulkhead drain in the current set-up, (provided the skimmer box could handle 600 gph), or a smaller pump w/valve (designed for something closer to 600 gph) to control flow rate.  This depends on fish load and if 600 gph is acceptable for filtration as overall circulation will be closed loop as below.  For figuring drains and skimmer box sizes Reef Central has a nifty drain calculator in the left menu bar, check it out if that's the way you choose to go.>
And if my conclusion is correct, would you recommend adding another overflow (with a 1" bulkhead) to the other corner?  I've found a site where I can purchase a pre-fab 2-sided overflow.  Would you recommended this?  And how easy/difficult is it to install into my tank?
<Not difficult, depending on how "handy" you are.  Or have an acrylic shop match the one you have and glue it in place. Either way, you need to either go lower flow for filtration or more drain.>
I will then need to install another input bulkhead into my wet/dry (CPR CR1000--rated at 150g).
Again, would there be any negative ramifications from this modification?
<Not likely.>
Furthermore, I am planning to drill holes and install bulkheads at the back of the aquarium to run a close-loop circulation system.  My plan is to install 3 1" bulkheads near the bottom of the tank: one on the left side, another in the middle, and then one on the right side.  The one in the middle will take the incoming water to a pump, maybe an Iwaki 40RXLT, and then from the pump to a PVC T that will distribute the water to the two side bulkheads.  What are your opinions about this plan?  Do I face any problems because all 3 bulkheads are to be installed near the bottom of the tank (i.e. water pressure too much)?
<No particular problems with this at all. Do properly size pipe for both pump intake and manifold. Better to oversize one size to get full performance from pump. Use valves to control/adjust flow as needed.  Make sure the intake is properly shielded.>
I appreciate your feedback.  Your site has been very helpful to me and other aquarists in this exciting hobby! Regards, Ed
<Glad to hear it Ed! Have fun....and don't forget to QT fish first!  Craig>  

Circulation Dilemma
<Hey There! Ryan with you>
First let me commend you guys on a great site with loads of information, I never feel like I will get to the end of it!
<A wealth of knowledge!  I use it everyday as well>
My New - Future Reef Setup:
CSL retrofit 48" 2x 175wt MH / 2x 65wt PC actinic
150g Perfecto 48"x24"x30" WxDxH tank viewable from both sides, but in wall
Natures Miracle Pink Samoa Sand
Amiracle XL Mudd Sump in basement (approx 35g?) (proposed) not placed yet:
Kent Marine Bio Sediment 20 lbs
Nature Miracle Live Sand 40 lbs
1400 gph 1pc Overflow w/ 2 outlets, plumbed with 2x Lee's 1" ID vinyl hose to basement sump.
<Sounds sweet so far>
Currently 1- 3/4" ID Lee's return from sump using Supreme Mag Drive 24 1" output reduced to 3/4" pumping from basement
approx 14' high/head.  Ends in a piece of U shaped PVC with some Loc Line flex hose into tank.
There is also an extra 1" ID vinyl hose from tank to basement as a spare.
<Skimmer?>
All the hoses are new and in floor/wall behind sheetrock, and more hoses cannot be very easily added (although nothing is impossible).
<I understand>
There are no powerheads currently.
<Remedy this>
My question is this enough circulation for my tank if not, what can I do to upgrade?
My thoughts:
I can return the pump or get another pump and put it on the 1" spare back to the tank, however I am not sure the 2- 1" ID hoses can take the flow since I read a 1.5" hose has a max flow of 600 gph. Which I am to assume I have max 800 gph at most.  
Although I fear in the 1 or 2 turns in the wall behind the sheetrock, there may be some tight spots where I cannot guarantee 1" each.
<Pump should be fine- What you really need is a few powerheads aimed at each other for some sporadic water movement.  This will be of benefit to most marine aquaria.>
I have been reading through the FAQs and it seems like the Iwaki's are highly regarded as well as Gorman Rupp pumps?  <Both a fine product>
If I am to target a 10x changeover/hour that should mean about 150+35?=185x10=1800 gph at 14' head. <10-20 is recommended, you're on the lower end of the scale.  This is more reason to increase circulation in the tank itself> The Iwaki MD70RLT (1170gph) + MD
100RLT(1740) seem to be in this range.  Now my only worry is getting the
water back down to the sump, as well as the 3/4" return back to tank.
<Tinkering is the best part!>
Is the answer to get my remaining circulation from a closed loop?  If so how much would you allot to each system?
<I think you'll be fine as long as you can add some good circulation to the tank.  You may even want to direct the water upwards in an effort to keep the surface agitated.  Page 123 of Anthony and Bob's new book may be helpful in making your decision.  Best of luck! Ryan>
What should I do?
Thanks so much in advance,
Alex Wu

Circulation Dilemma Revisited
Ryan,
<Here!>
So is the answer to continue to use the existing setup that is only pushing a 2.7x turn per hour?
<Sorry if I was unclear- You need to be at 10x for a reef.>
If I look at the flow chart (http://www.pond-o-mania.com/mag-drivestats.html) for the Mag Drive 24 at 14' head it's only pushing about 500 gph on my 150g+35g=185g setup, that's 2.7x turns per hour a far cry from the 1850gph for 10x.
Therefore I should change my pumps to the Iwaki MD70RLT or the MD100RLT
BUT will the water accumulate in the tank faster than it can come down the 2- 1" inner diameter vinyl hoses back to the sump??  It seems I can only move about 800gph back to the sump.
<750 gph should be adequate with lots of circulation in the tank itself>
Therefore should I target around 750gph (4x turnover) and then make up the rest in the tank with powerheads (for the remaining 6-16x turnover to add up to overall 10x-20x turnover)?
<Yes, exactly>
If that's the case then I wanted to use SCWD's and loc line attached to the powerheads and hide everything in the LR, does that sound right?
<Yes, sounds great.>
Your other comment regarding a skimmer, I was under the impression that a Mud filter/refugium with Caulerpa didn't require a skimmer (detrimental?)  Otherwise I have a currently running FOWLR system with a venturi skimmer that I am going to rip down and move all the LR and inhabitants over to this new house.
<Actually, I was simply inquiring if you were planning on using a skimmer or not.  Many people have had success in skimmerless systems, especially when using Mud Filtration.  I'm just not one of them!>
Thanks again,
<Sure!  Sorry for the confusion>
Alex Wu

Overflowing With Questions
I am building a reef tank and have a question about overflow box location and drain hole size.  My proposed reef tank will be 84Lx24wx26(or 28)H. The sump/refugium will be located in the basement and the reef tank on the main floor.
<A great set up!>
I want to have just one overflow located at the back center of the tank; rather than one at each end.  The single middle overflow would increase the viewing areas at the sides.
<There are ways to do this...>
First:  Is there any problems with having just one middle overflow with that size tank?  It concerns me because all the manufactures build corner overflows at each end/corner.
<Although it certainly can be done with one overflow, I think that two would be a little better. Another idea, which Anthony Calfo touches on in his "Book of Coral Propagation (BTW- Just get this book- it's awesome, and you'll love it!) is to construct an overflow that runs the length of the aquarium, built near the top of the tank, with holes drilled directly into the walls of the tank. In essence, what you will have is a small shelf, which can be a neat place to place frags, etc. This is definitely a radical idea, but will efficiently pull water from the top of the water column in an efficient manner.>
Second: How large should the drain hole be in the bottom of the tank?
<Depends on the size of the pump and its flow. Larger (1-1/2" or more) is generally better, IMO>
Should I drill one large hole or two side by side?  How big? I will be using a Durso stand pipe to eliminate noise. I want to eliminate the chance that the drain does not plug and overflow the tank. Plus I am concerned one large hole may not be enough when using a stand pipe.
<Agreed- one overflow is probably not enough. I'd definitely use two, maybe more, depending on the pump size/water flow that you are shooting for. Durso standpipes work well, too!>
Third: Do you find 28" high reef tanks too tall?  I plan to use MH and VHO combo lights. Thanks for your help. Greg
<I don't think that the tank is too tall. I tend to favor wider, shallow tanks for ease of maintenance, light penetration, and aquascaping possibilities, but tall tanks work well, too, particularly if you are using a deep sand bed, creating extensive, tall aquascaping features, etc. Your lighting scheme should work; again- the suitability is largely based upon the types of animals that you will be keeping, and the wattage of the bulbs. Many, many possibilities. Have fun! Scott F.>

Re: Overflowing With Questions...
Thanks for the quick response and the thoughtful reply.  What a fantastic resource you are!
<We sure have a great group of people working here! Thanks for the encouraging words!>
Another question, though.  I am thinking about going to a 120 Oceanic "reef ready" set up, with two built-in overflows.  I think I remember reading in one of your postings that you (in the collective) did not particularly like overflows.  Is there another option for water circulation?
<To the contrary, IMO- well- designed and constructed internal overflows are the standard, preferred method of getting water into the sump from the aquarium. I feel that they are a great way to go! Maybe you were confusing external overflows, which can be problematic and can break siphon>
I have a Medusa heater/chiller controller and a 1/4 HP chiller, so I need to pump water through the chiller on the way back to the tank from the sump.
<An efficient overflow setup with a capable pump should do the trick!>
Thanks again!
<And thank you for visiting the wetwebmedia.com site. Do check on the many resources that we have regarding set-ups and sump configurations. Regards,  Scott F>

Water flow and other questions
Bob, Anthony, Steven, you've all been a big help so far answering my questions as well as the countless others. <<Must be why it's in my bucket now... JasonC here at your service.>> Thanks! I have a 72g reef in its 4th month. I am noticing red Cyano on my DSB in the corners where I assume the water flow is lowest. I have backed off on feeding (roughly 1 cube frozen mysis or krill every other day -- the active consumers are 2 Perculas, 2 Chromis, 1 Banggai cardinal, and 1 scooter blenny, and 1 peppermint shrimp) and recently added a fresh shipment of Nerites, Strombus, mini Turbos, bristleworms, micro hermits, and sand bed clams from IPSF (to the preexisting population of Turbos, Trochus, Cerith, and red hermits) in the hopes that some increased activity in the sand might help. I am also thinking of altering my water flow, and I have a few questions for you. <<Shoot...>>
This is an Oceanic RR bowfront with the return (Eheim 1060) in the upper left rear corner, aimed at the right side glass. At the upper right rear is a MJ 1200 opposing the return and alternating 40 seconds on and 40 seconds off (Natural Wave) <<I think I would leave this one on full time... the opposing flows will be plenty random.>> Both upper left and right front corners also have MJ 1200s connected to the Natural Wave, aimed along the front glass and alternating every 20 seconds. The flow is nice and turbulent for the most part and, at any given time, is theoretically between 900 and 1200 gph. In the past I have tried aiming the PHs slightly downward but it ends up creating sand drifts across the DSB. Is there a way around this? <<Put down a layer of heavy, more coarse substrate.>> Should 1 or more PHs be moved lower in the tank? <<I wouldn't.>> Should I disconnect the wave maker, or upgrade to a more powerful return pump? Or is the Cyano just a stage that will pass? <<A little of both, but I think by manipulation of the powerheads, you will eventually land on the magic placement combination. You just want to avoid those laminar flows.>>
FYI, water specs: 80 degrees, SG 1.026, ph 8.20, Alk 3.4 meq/l, Ca 420 ppm, Iodine 0.06 mg/l, Mg 1380 mg/l, NO3 2.5 mg/l, PO4 0.03 mg/l. Tank is skimmed with AquaC EV-120. Could lighting be an issue? Bulbs are all new, 2x175w 10000K MH (10 hrs) + 130w 7100K PC (12 hrs).
I realize that this is a complicated question and I hope I was descriptive enough for you to visualize. <<No worries.>> As always, I really appreciate you advice and all of the great information on the site. Thanks again! <<You are quite welcome.>>
Ed Marshall, Austin, Texas
<<Cheers, J -- >>

New tank circulation dispute, please help settle!
Hi Anthony I hope you are all well at WWM.
<very well my friend... cheers from across the pond!>
I have a problem with ordering a new tank because the FS owner doesn't agree with what I am asking for in the way of circulation. 
<hmmm... that's interesting...heehee. Is he the anti-capitalist?>
What he is recommending is 4 1/2 * the volume 
<weak... bordering on dangerous for corals>
and then make up the rest with some sort of wave making arrangement that then costs another 300+ pounds sterling (464+ US Dollars). 
<wow... he's either a crook or incompetent or both <G>. Wait a minute... maybe he's brilliant... a wavemaker is a lot more expensive to sell you than a single recirculating pump <G>! Wave makers for larger tanks in particular are poor choices for creating water movement and way overpriced by any standard. Tell him that I said, his "mother was a hamster... and his father smelled of elderberries!". Lets hope he is a Monty Python fan too :) And then tell him to read this article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/circmarart.htm >
I have told him that you recommend trying to get at least 10* the tanks capacity through the sump. (After reading your article on Circulation) 
<awesome>
and that I would like my tank to be able to accommodate at least this through put. Am I misunderstanding you here? you do say 10*Vol through the sump instead of powerheads don't you?
<absolutely. I'm specifically saying to avoid powerheads if at all possible. They are junk technology but a necessary evil for some. A single large pump on the sump running a teed manifold (nozzles) topside (like described in the article) is perhaps one of the very best ways to provide water flow. Some aquarists that don't want high flow through their pump drill 2 holes in the main display for a closed loop in the tank run by a second external pump. The two holes can be placed anywhere and simply are plumbed together with a pump inline. This second pump never needs primed and is fairly low maintenance (do have shut offs and quick disconnects on either side though for removal and pump cleaning without draining the tank). There is much chat on the big message boards by the advanced aquarists on this strategy. I like it just fine. External pumps are longer lasting, cooler running, more energy efficient, and aesthetically discreet and hidden altogether... everything that powerheads are not>
I suggested he might look at your site , I am including his response below enclosed in this type of brackets {{ }} and would really appreciate your comments on the content so that I can feel better able to answer his objections or tell him the suggested resolutions. 
<indeed our pleasure>
He makes it seem like I'm asking for something ridiculously over the top and that I'm asking for excessive noise.
<then you are talking to a man that hasn't seen or done it successfully before <G>. Do share your plan or sketch with us here before you commit to pumps and holes, etc. Better yet... do you have a fax number we could exchange faxes at? I can send you a sketch that way>
The tank size is 5ft*2ft*2ft and will hold 125 Imperial Gallons (150 US gals approx.). Could you tell me what you would have drilled in this tank and the through put you think is reasonable for me to ask for!
<absolutely... if AMP master pumps are available... do consider. Else, a Japanese made Iwaki in the 6000 liter per hour range would be excellent (just avoid the dual pump/400 series... they are the only noisy ones in the bunch). The size of the holes to be drilled is up to you, my friend. Just check the bulkhead specs for flow tolerances. We want to exceed the pumps maximum capacity as you can imagine. If you want to do that with 5 holes for 25mm pipe, or just 2 or three larger holes (40 mm)... that is up to you. Somewhat of a personally preference here. Am I correct in recalling that you have my Book of Coral Propagation as well? If so, look at the illustrations in the early part of the book for modifying an overflow for a long drawn discreet shelf (page 42/43... and if you don't have it... I'll figure out a way to e-mail it <G>)This is tremendously quiet and drastically improves the quality of overflowing surface water. If you prefer to have the floor drilled instead, look at the illustration on the next page and modify that with a Durso standpipe... see here for instructions: (http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe_menu.htm)>
Maybe suggest a pump that could achieve it for me.
LFS response:
{{after our discussion of last week, I read the articles within wetwebmedia.com and whilst they are of some interest I must say some of the information is very misleading, as it does not specify whether the information is in regard to trickle filters or natural reefs in most circumstances.
To give you some idea of the impracticality of flowing 2,500 gallons per hour through the sump, your aquarium would require a minimum of 4* 40 mm return pipes to sump to cope with 11,000 ltrs, this would therefore require 4 overflow boxes. The noise would be unbearable.
<this is the first problem... standing overflows (as opposed to having the back wall drilled with the internal overflow shelf... rather silent) are inherently noisy if they are not fitted with a Durso modification or like design. At any rate... sure, just drilling 4 holes in the floor of the aquarium is very noisy... but we're talking about professional installations here instead.>
please follow this link to the site of a very experienced hobbyist http://website.lineone.net/~espsrg/circulation_.htmi look forward to hearing your reply. Danny}}
I followed this link and got the impression that this aquarist was in agreement about lots of flow through but not through a DSB which I wanted to have in the sump. How would/should I handle this.
<ahhh... agreed. The DSB in the sump is an issue. Strong flow will make this challenging. There are in fact advantages to upstream refugiums rather than downstream/under sump... do consider (no plankton shear however small that may be, it becomes an aesthetic focal point... perhaps keep jellyfish or mangrove trees or something exotic in there that cannot be in the reef proper, etc). But yes... I missed the DSB in the sump bit. If its important to you... you'll have to compromise and get flow through other means like a closed loop pump in the display and a smaller sump pump, or top-mounted pumps (Gemini, Tunze Turbelle)>
I hope you don't mind me burdening you with this 
<no burden at all! It is our pleasure and duty to help>
but as I am having the tank and stand made to order I want to get it right and this chap is starting to worry me with his insistence about unbearable noise. 
<understood and agreed. Jenny, let me suggest that you find a few local aquarists to visit and see their tanks in operation with this style. Just post an open query on reefcentral.com stating you are a UK reefer from so-and-so and you're looking for a shared opinion from another local. Its a huge message board with a lot of nice folks. Seeing systems with Durso overflows and /or closed loop, 2-pump reefs will put your mind at ease and also guide you to make the very best pump and hole choices. Do you know of any local aquarium societies for like fellowship? Tell you what... I'm going to e-mail my book distributor there in the UK and see if he can help direct you locally>
Is there a minimum number of baffles/dividers needed to reduce noise or something else that needs doing?
<nope... the baffles will not likely help.>
Many thanks for your valued advice Many thanks Jenny
<And let me say again in parting, if there is a fax number that I could send you a sketch too... I will draw up a design specifically for your tank size. Else I will need to get the sketch scanned by a friend and try to e-mail it to you. Have you had a chance to glance at this illustration?: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plumbingmarart.htm
it has some fundamental elements (some not all of use to you). Best regards, Anthony>
Jenny Nunley

Re: New tank circulation dispute, please help settle!
UK reefing
Hello again Anthony,
Thank you so much for your speedy reply and willingness to help me with my tank problem. The only fax number I have at present is my work's fax which is ################ you are welcome to use this I understand it is left on all night so should be o.k. If you would send me a sketch of what you would do I would be really grateful. 
<I just sent over several pages with a sketch of the sump fed by a horizontal internal overflow (with a profile of this apparatus on the last page) and of an optional closed loop pump as well. This one or two pump system can easily replace all other pumps for water movement if you'd consider the manifold system also sketched on page two (profile page three). This is an incredibly inexpensive way to get incredible fine tuned random turbulent water flow without any visible artifacts like powerheads in the tank display. Aesthetically very clean>
I could rethink the DSB idea if you think it has an adverse affect on the sump through put, I thought it was needed to complete the nitrogen cycle.
<I feel the DSB is quite helpful for most systems indeed! I just tend not to put it in a downstream sump but rather enjoy it in the main display proper. Your choice>
Also I have no preference on where the holes should be drilled i.e. bottom/back of tank, I will go for the back if that is the best method.
<I think the top back is best and quietest. You may use 1 or 2 large holes per 1500 gallons per hour, or 4-6 smaller holes (25-35 mm) scattered across the back. It makes little difference either way... as long as the mfg spec satisfy the flow you choose to run. Simply pick whichever you can get drilled easier with available bulkheads>
I am afraid I don't yet have a copy of your 'The Book of Coral Propagation' because I haven't yet heard back from the UK distributor you told me about so I can't yet refer to it.
<I can send you one direct if you like as well... $45USD (about 29 GBP)
Thanks again for your help, the FS will have to wait until I know what to tell him I want. Thanks again - Jenny
<do advise me if the faxes aren't legible (or intelligible <G>). I will be glad to re-fax or explain. Also see this link for an elaborated view of possible reef plumbing components: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/plumbingmarart.htm
also... here's an excerpt from my book describing the internal overflow shelf diagramed in the faxes:
"Overflows drilled into an upper sidewall of the aquarium or culturing vessel are perhaps the most common. They are easily managed and require less strategy in planning. They are generally smaller and less obvious than internal siphon overflow boxes and stand pipes. They are also the least expensive way to modify an aquarium for overflow. Holes are simply drilled with an appropriate hole saw for glass, acrylic or masonry and a plastic bulkhead is fitted. Businesses selling aquaria and ponds generally have the ability to order or complete hole drilling for customers. Careful consideration of desired water flow and pump size will determine the number and size of holes drilled for overflow. Distribution of holes along a given plane is of little significance regarding the quality of effluent water captured. Some aquarists prefer to bunch multiple holes together; others spread or split them apart. Ultimately, sufficient water flow through the display should make the debate over the distribution of holes a moot point.
What does impact the quality of water captured by an overflow is surface area. Imagine if you will, two overflow boxes each with the same sized feed that continues on a downstream path (a one inch pipe, draining to the sump, for example). If one box has a larger “mouth” (the linear surface area that the water flows over), the effluent water displaced will be spread thinner across the spillway than the smaller box. Put another way; let’s consider the same situation on an aquarium with two drilled overflow holes. If we know that the flow of circulating water can be managed by two holes operating at half capacity, then the addition of two more holes (for a total of four) should permit them to operate at a level half again as much (specifically at one fourth capacity). The surface area was doubled, so the “thickness” of effluent water overflowing was cut in half. The concentration of over flowing water is particularly important for the capture and export of proteins and other targeted matter known to migrate to the surface of seawater. The “thinnest” surface water captured will have the greatest concentrations of targeted nutrients for export by a protein skimmer or other filtration component downstream.
Beyond drilling extra holes for the over flow of water, a very simple modification to an internal overflow can be made to improve the quality of water captured. The greatest benefit will be achieved on overflows that run the length of display walls that have been drilled with holes. This can be simple and made discreet, particularly on the plane of an aquarium or culturing vessel that is not viewed through (such as the rear wall). Although the same volume of water will flow through the same given number of bulkheads had they been unassisted, the incorporation of a long, shallow overflow box will spread the given flow of water quite thin over a greater surface area (see the first illustration for this section titled, Hiding Unnatural Features of a Display). While the new feature is aesthetically more prominent than bulkheads alone, it can be hidden in a most unique and useful fashion. By extending the floor of the overflow box beyond its vertical wall by a few inches, a functional shelf is created. This shelf is in a position to receive strong light and current which is ideal for some coral species. Suitable corals may be placed on the shelf and rotated in programs of culture or allowed to encrust for aesthetic purpose. Aquarists should construct the internal overflow box as long as functional and aesthetic preferences allow. Please refer to the previous illustration on page 42 for a profile of this feature."
<best regards, Anthony>

Overflows
Can you gave me any information on the Stockman overflow I have been told it works better than the Durso. RGibson
<Cheers, Ralph! How the heck are you my friend? You've caught me in town and on e-mail for once <G>. I have been traveling so much... a great time, but I'm getting behind on phone calls and friends. Regarding the Stockman overflow... I have no personal experience with it at all. As usual, we'll post this for responses. Best regards, Anthony>

Film on Top of Water
what to do about film on top of water I have two return pumps and three power heads connected to a wave maker for water circulation still have this film on top of water can find no information any where
James mills 
<You should re-aim some of your returns or powerheads for surface agitation. Also, take a look at your overflow. This should be effectively skimming water from the surface and eliminating this scum layer. -Steven Pro>

Cycling pumps off at night time
Hello all. Last time I wrote, Bob was the only one answering questions (it's been a while). You have grown a bunch! I have a question regarding a pump in my system. I have a 125 FOWLR. I have one pump that runs full time returning water from the sump. I have another on a closed loop. The pump on the closed loop is on a timer that comes on in the a.m. a little after the actinics come on, and goes off before the lights go out at night. So the fish get more vigorous water movement during the day, and it's softer at night. Is it safe to have the closed loop pump cycle off at night, considering the water stays in the plumbing for it overnight with no movement? I know that stagnant water can cause problems, and was wondering if it applies in a situation like this. Or would you recommend just letting it run all the time, even if it doesn't cause a problem?
<From your questions, I believe you are most concerned about the stagnant water inside the plumbing giving you problems. I would not think that could be too much of a problem over 12 hours, but I have another concern. Your circulation and therefore gas exchange is weakest when your system needs it the most, at night with CO2 production at its highest. For that reason, I would run both pumps 24/7.>
Thanks a bunch! Jason
<You are welcome a bunch! -Steven Pro>

Pumps
Bob-
Do you recommend installing a pump in the back/bottom of the tank to circulate the water behind the reef?
Thank you, Rob
>>
Yes I do... as we will no doubt agree, there are very few, "well-circulated" systems... especially compared with any part of the "wild"... Many benefits to moving the water around there... no drawbacks. Bob Fenner

Powerhead Placement
One more question.......I am ordering the compact lighting that you suggested, but what about the power head placement, as I have already set up the live rock , etc. how can I cause the wave motion to create a cleaning cycle toward the back bottom of the tank?
Once again
Connie
>>
Good question... my fave placement is two to three or more (depending on size of the system, volume/flow rate of the powerheads) two towards the lower front middle of the tank from the upper back corners... But, the more the merrier (you can quote me, gladly) in the way of water movers... and I would place another small pump scooting/shooting across the back of your live rock...
Bob Fenner 

Surge Device
I was tinkering with the idea of building a surge device/wavemaker.
I remember talking to you before about the "toilet bowl" device. Do you have plans for it on your web site or are there plans on another DIY type web site?
Thanks, Steven Pro
>>
Hmm, do think there are some plans on one of the old, but still available archives of Aquarium Frontiers Online...
Bob Fenner

Reef Aquarium Question (ref.s and wavemakers)
Hi Bob,
I was wondering if you might answer a few quick questions regarding reef aquariums for me. <I'll try>I feel like I've cut my teeth on a FOWLR tank, and now I'd like to try out a reef. Can you recommend any books that will get me started? I'm looking for information such as coral compatibility, placement, care, etc. I have your book already, so any supplemental literature that you can recommend would be most welcome.
<Thank you for asking... I do agree with your approach. Do definitely get/read through volumes 1 and 2 of The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium by Sven Fossa and Alf Nilsen (some other folks would refer you to the same sorts of re-works by Delbeek and Sprung here in the US), and if you'd like a nice complementary reference, as many of the Baensch Marine Atlases (starting with number one) as you can handle... These are offered by FFExpress.com and a few of the other mail-order/internet book and pet-fish suppliers>
Secondly, what equipment is essential to running a successful reef?
Here's what I have: 180 gal aquarium w/ 200# LR, 50 gal. Berlin sump, skimmer, calcium reactor, 6 X 96W power compact lights (2 actinic and 4 daylight). Can you let me know if I'm missing anything that is a must have?
<Maybe some pumps for aeration, circulation, powering it all... many other possibilities exist depending on the type of system, your desires (culture for instance)... take a long read through the set-up parts and FAQs posted on the www.wetwebmedia.com site>
Finally, I'd like to get your opinion regarding circulation. My return pump will be a Dolphin 3000 (3000 gph) split out to two Sea Swirls, which will be placed on either side of the center brace. For additional circulation, my initial plan was to have a 1200 gph pump at each end of the tank, set up for closed loop circulation, with the returns coming out a few inches above my substrate via plumbing through the Oceanic overflow boxes. These pumps would be run via a wavemaker. However, I came across a sinusoidal valve designed by Robert Michaelson which looks like it would be a more efficient way to achieve circulation which seems like it would be more natural. (pic's attached). This valve is run with one pump, and gives varying degrees of output at each end (e.g. when as output A approaches 100% open, output B approaches 0%, then back the other way, cycling once a minute), not the simple on/off function like a wavemaker. Do you have any experience with either type of circulation system?
<Only the former... but this other design is intriguing>
Sorry to ask so many questions, but the most important thing I learned from the fish only experience was to learn as much as possible, and do everything right from the beginning. Thanks in advance for your help.
<Agreed, and you're certainly welcome. Bob Fenner>
Best Regards, DanReef 

Aquarium Circulation/pump Question
Bob,
Thanks for your help. If it's not too much trouble, could you expound a bit more on your response to my question regarding circulation? You mention that you have experience with the closed loop circulation that I described. Was it a good experience or a disaster? 
<Good>
I've heard that return pumps have been known to fail when run via a wavemaker, and I'm trying to find out about other's experiences.
<In my experience, more so than in other applications... the variable load, numerous times on/off really wear on the small units... A good idea to investigate brands and the opinions of real users ahead of actual purchase... for large-enough systems, fractional low head pumps for other applications are more desirable than many of the small, and excess heat-generating models/brands sold in the pet-fish interest...>
Thanks Again, Dan
<You're welcome. Bob Fenner>

Lighting and water flow
Hi Bob. I am setting up a 38 gallon tank that I received used. It will house marine fish and live rock. I am not too interested in invertebrates at the moment. The tank dimensions are 48"L x 10"W x 18"H. The tank has an integrated filter area in the back, which I will place mud and macroalgae, but the aforementioned dimensions correspond to the main compartment of the tank where the fish will live.
<Okay>
For lighting of the main part of the tank, I am considering a 2x55W PC set-up with the bulbs arranged end to end in a hood. After recently returning from a honeymoon in Tahiti, where my wife and I did a lot of great snorkeling, I am interested in reproducing the lighting conditions of a shallow reef environment. What Kelvin rating of bulbs would you use for such an effect? Also, while I said that I wouldn't be too interested in invertebrates, would this lighting set-up support one sea anemone in the tank (for a clownfish to play in)?
<Have been there... and this set-up should do>
For water flow, there is a return bulkhead located at the top right side of the back of the tank. A Rio pump cycles the tank at about 400 gallons per hour. How would you direct the flow of water from that bulkhead (e.g., would you split the return and if so, in which directions)? Also, would you add a power head at another location in the tank, like the bottom, for additional water flow/circulation?
<Yes to having at least one more powerhead/mini pump... and crossing the flows... please read over the FAQs section of the www.wetwebmedia.com site under the marine index for my "aiming" input>
Thank you in advance for any helpful comments. I've really appreciated all of your help in the past.
Bruce G.
<Glad to be here. Bob Fenner>

W/D
Hey Bob,
Once again I want to thank you for all of your help, but I have another question to ask you. Okay here goes, so are you saying that the Mag Drive 350 will be enough power for the 72 Gallon tank alone. Without the power heads. Or do you think the Mag drive 500 will be better for this tank. Some people think the Mag Drive 500 will be to powerful for the 72 gallon tank, then overflow the wet/dry and other say that the more power the better. Thank you so much for the Knowledge that you have provided for all of us because it is very much needed. Thanks again.
<This one pump is fine for all the filtration and circulation, aeration purposes for your 72... a bit of planning, cutting and solventing plumbing-wise here... with ball valves in place for the alternate discharges for fine tuning... Likely no added powerheads, submersible pumps needed. Bob Fenner>

Circulation
<Lorenzo Gonzalez 'playing-Bob' who's in another hemisphere right now>
For a 72 gallon bow-front tank, what would be the proper circulation using two powerheads? I want to have sufficient circulation without tossing my inhabitants throughout the tank. Would two powerheads at 270 gph be too much? Thanks for the help.
<270gph (total/combined) is not necessarily overkill for a 72g system. I like to place the powerheads facing each other, but slightly offset, on opposite ends of the tank - to create as much random turbulence as possible.
-Lorenzo>

Re: dazed & confused (from the new WWNews Chatforum.)
Hi Lorenzo---sorry to bother you through your regular e-mail but want to ask a few ?'s and don't want to take over the chat forum plus you helped me when Bob was away over initial question of powerheads. I did a lot of reading about BGA late last night and this a.m. Based on all I read...decided that anything new that was red needed to go whether or not neighbors felt some areas were macro due to small bubbles forming (?) Anyways...neighbor let me borrow his Rio2100 in case we liked the idea of it being ready to go as opposed to mag7 husband bought last night that he wants to have 3-4 pipes off of it to circulate in different directions. I'm liking the Rio (yes,  I read on WWM about some having problems) as it's on the side of my center overflow ...hits the side and comes across to the front. Can see/feel current travels the full 6'...don't know where the best placement is for my 2 -270 Hagen's...but am thinking one on the opposite back end at a different height?  I know it's hard to visualize but due you have a feeling about the rio2100 vs. the mag7 (700gph)though I don't know how much power it will have left with several pipes off of it. I spent the day brushing...vacuuming and removed some dried sea whips I had for decor which may have caused a problem due to small particles of the tang's seaweed select rinsed out. Feel I have plenty of "competition" with a 1' square area of Caulerpa...lighting is definitely enough watts (280) running 11 hours a day. I see on FAQ's re: BGA that Bob recommends adding baking soda every day to help the problem. (2 tests show phosphates at 0) Any thoughts you can pass on would be great. (Saw in one of your FAQ's that you referred to being in "Detroit's rust belt"...born and raised here and haven't heard that one?) Thanks so much---know you're very busy with the forum---BarbaraT

Powerhead placement: Mag7: Macroalgae:...
Hmm, I'll hit your 'mini-topics' one at a time, sorry if it seems terse(?)...
:-)
Powerhead placement:
Laminar currents are generally considered bad (hence the proliferation of 'wavemaker' devices) so you can avoid them by arranging your pumps such that -opposing- streams are just offset/overlapping, to create as much randomized turbulence as possible, with perhaps a vaguely circular overall current, in either the horizontal or vertical plane (doesn't matter, especially if your tank has a square cross-section).
Mag7:
Considered a premium pump by many folks, but not exactly the 'Rolls-Royce' of pumps. Still this thing might pump water through a 25' hose and out of your basement. Don't worry about the piping your hubby is scheming of - it'll be fine, especially after it's disguised by the eventual layer of coralline it will attract.
What does BGA look like:
It's mushy to the fingernail, sticks tenaciously to rocks and especially gravel/sand, frequently coming up in ugly mats. Generates the 02 bubbles you're witnessing. Red/pink/purple Coralline, on the other hand, is hard like bathtub lime-deposit, and will barely scrape off glass with a finger nail. Usually appears in little, expanding/joining spots and dots on everything, heater, filters, powerheads, glass, rocks. Just scrape it off the glass/acrylic (at least the viewing panels) early, before it becomes too attached.
Quality of RIO pumps:
Never had a problem, 'cept the stupid suction cups wear out, and the pump falls into the tank and blows sand everywhere. We have at least 10 of them, in active service. Keep hearing about everyone else's problems though'.
<Mucho... a great deal due to "user failure/neglect" assuredly>
Macroalgae:
Any algae that forms a distinctly 'plant-like' structure. BGA (bad), diatoms (bad), and coralline (good) do not qualify. Bubble/pearl (bad), Caulerpa (very good), and Halimeda (calcareous), and kelp a little big) are all examples of 'macros'.
Rust-belt: (Michigan, Pennsylvania)
I'm not from here at all, been here only 2.5 years now. Don't quite remember where I first heard the term, but note that when we lived in Kansas/Missouri for a year, very few locals referred to it as the 'Bible Belt'... but I sure did... :-)
Note too that 280 watts over a 135g is pretty much minimal wattage for a marine tank these days. I know Bob recommends the 2-4 watts/gallon, but I find 2watts/gallon extremely dim. Our 60g has 220watts, and the 35 has 96watts - both are power compacts, which are startlingly bright at rated wattages, both tanks receive 12 hours/day. The only thing you lose with the lower wattage is the ability to do things like clams, anemones, stony corals, and some soft corals. Mushrooms and Xeniids prefer lower light, like yours.
Regarding mailing me directly: I don't mind at all - but I do feel the forum misses out on the resultant discourse! Obviously I get a LOT less mail than Bob, so my responses can be a little more detailed. And as far as being 'busy with the forum' - you don't think that's my job, do you? :-) That's just for fun! Wish I could spend more time on it...
<You will my friend>
Where in Detroit/Michigan/Ohio are you? (saw you made the trip to Tropicorium)
Best regards,
Lorenzo
p.s. Cc'd to Bob, in case he has a chance to cast his Zwie Pfennig into the pot...
<I'll gladly do anything other than go through, scan and place Pond images... Agree with most all you've stated so eloquently... Are you ready for another stint as the FAQs mastah? Will post there. Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Circulation & locations
Greetings Bob,
First thank you very much on the information regarding pump and sump size.
Next question as I work towards setting up my 5 gal <50?> reef tank concerns water movement, specifically placement of the return from the sump and location of my power heads.
The return from the sump will be at 725 gph. Is that too much flow (your recommendation of 10:1)?
<Not too much>
And, at least in my feeble brain, location of the return line should be coordinated with the placement of the power heads.
As for power heads, I have a rotating power head, a Power Sweep 228 and a 400 gph Penguin. With this plethora of information on water circulation, what would be your suggestion for placement of these three water movement devices.
<At angles to each, crossing over corner to front, along the back... no real "dead space" afforded.>
Again, I do sincerely appreciate your help and knowledge.
David Hacker
<Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Sea Swirls and powerheads together?
Good morning again, Mr. Fenner!
I'm taking advantage here of your kindness but I am a bit troubled here.
<Let's help to settle you then>
I had decided to install 2 3/4 in. Sea Swirls in my future 90 AGA (48x18x24) tank, to be established in some months from now.
<Nice units>
However, I have always been worried about circulation in the deeper zones in the tank as Sea Swirls primarily circulate water in the top. 
<You are correct>
Although this would certainly help my SPS, I am worried than lack of circulation (if any) would create dead spots in deeper zones.
The tank will have a DSB of 5 o 6 inches.
Do you recommend adding a couple of powerheads to encourage water movement in these areas or the SS would be enough?
<I think your idea is good... to add some other powerheads in the lower regions... if your substrate is fine in grade over the top of this region, perhaps pointed at oblique angles toward the mid to upper water. There are even small submersible pumps (my favorite ones by Aquarium Systems) that can be placed, aimed along the back to move water in/through the live rock areas. Bob Fenner>
Thank you,
Mary.

Re: Sea Swirls and powerheads together?
Yeah.... Thanks!
I know which pumps you are talking about, the Mini Jet Pumps...
Ok, thanks a lot!
Have a great day :-)
<Will endeavor to do so. You as well. Bob Fenner>
Mary

Water Flow Balancing
Dear Mr. Fenner:
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask you a question regarding my system. I, as well as everyone else that emails you, really enjoy the web site and the wealth of information it provides. I have your book (CMA) and have read through it and use it as a helpful reference. I am setting up a new tank and have placed the substrate (about 1" of aragonite) and filled the tank with water to test for flow and leaks as you recommend. I have no fish or live rock in the tank yet.
<Okay>
The set up that I have is a 165 gal (72"l x 24"w x 22"h) with two CPR C90 overflows flowing into a 10gal sump. 
<Yikes... not a very large sump... have you tested for what might happen if the power goes off?>
The raw water is pulled from this chamber by an Iwaki RLT 55 pump to an ETS Evolution 750 skimmer sitting in another 10gal sump. (These sumps are side by side with a connector bulkhead for additional capacity in case the power goes off).
<Oh! Still wouldn't fill them up very high... and would test.>
The skimmed water is pulled chamber number 2 by an Iwaki RLT 40 pump to a wet/dry filter. The water is then pulled from the wet/dry by another Iwaki RLT 55 pump to a Ocean Clear 325 cartridge filter and then to two pvc return spray bars back in the main tank.
<Lots of gear>
I let the substrate settle for about a week to reduce cloudiness and then fired the whole system up. There was still minor cloudiness in the water at initial start up but within 3-4 hours the water was so clear that at times it didn't look like there was any water in the tank.
However, the problem is that the water levels in the chambers never seem to balance out. The level in one goes up while another may go down. The reason I have this set up is so that all the water will receive all phases of water treatment.
<I understand... and would easily double the size of these sumps...>
I have ball valves on the overflow lines as well as after every pump so that is how I can vary the water flow but it never seems to stabilize.
<It won't my friend... this is part of "the universe"... best not to fight it (we won't win)... but to count of gravit