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Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite... Commercial Crypt remedies, prevention - 07/19/08 Hello, I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)? <Some folks report success with such... perhaps their trials involve fishes with only superficial infestations... maybe these are principally only symptomatic...> I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life. <Mmm... I strongly suggest that they, you do a bit of further considering here... I would do FW baths on arrival (pH adjusted, with formalin if a commercial setting)... and even better to best, keep all incoming fish livestock quarantined for a few weeks before showing, offering it to the public... I would NOT mix fish and invertebrate livestock in a wholesale or retail setting... period> No option for separate treatment in a different tank. So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective. <Won't be... like the idea of invading countries, murdering their citizens to "make people free", this idea is contrary to reality. How to put this another way... it won't work> And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any other methods with it such as melafix <... API should be sued back to the stone ages for this and other faux products and their promotion. Really. Have stated this often and loudly enough. This product is garbage> for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery. <All this is gone over and over on WWM> I was considering fw bath repeated daily for 14 days, <... no... too much time, trouble, and stress on the fish livestock. Ridiculous> 7 min duration, gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so, melafix dosed daily, <Please...> few cleaning shrimp there for luck. <Don't rely on luck...> Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage. experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan <Thank you for sharing Jonathan. A note to browsers through time... this is actually an indicative case, window into the thinking, operation of the trade... A reminder that many folks, though honest, of good intent, don't really know much re the science of actual husbandry of ornamental aquatics. Bob Fenner> Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008 Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco. <Mmm, do know that I worked at corp... as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal> I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems. <I... empathize> Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper> <Yes> The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos. <... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems> The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater. <It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles> I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate? <Yes> As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those, <Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust> and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it. The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so. Sorry to go on, No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change? <Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed> I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique. <Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work> cheers, hand cuffed employee <Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>
Chain Stores 7/21/08
Alternative treatment for a common
marine parasite, Benjamin's input |
Treating an Ich Outbreak and FW dip
questions 4/23/08
Hello all,
<Hello>
No question addressed to you should start without expressing an unbelievable
amount of gratitude for all of your hard work. It is very much appreciated.
<Thanks>
My problem today is an ich outbreak that I am trying to treat. I am pulling all
my fish from the main display of course and setting up hospital tanks for all of
them. I gave everyone a long pH and temp adjusted FW dip with Methylene blue the
other day for ~10 min.s. They all seemed to handle it extremely well albeit that
most were pretty spooked from capture and handling.
<Can be a little stressful, but if the fish is still reasonable health, is worth
the effort.>
I was under the impression that the FW dip would lyse or pop the parasites.
<Some that are not already too deep into the tissue.>
Today I woke up to see what looked like an even worse infestation on all of my
fish (Heniochus acuminatus and Foxface).
<Definitely not a cure-all, or really a cure, but helpful in knocking down the
infection a bit, allows some fish's immune system to catch up, but often more
aggressive treatment is necessary.>
The white spots seem to have multiplied 3x fold.
<Typical of an ich infection.>
Are some stages of the parasite not affected by the dip?
<Only parasites on the fish, but not so deep into the fish's tissue that the
fish's body protects it, are susceptible to the FW dip.>
My game plan as it stands now is to keep the display fallow for 6 weeks and to
re-FWdip these guys, sterilize their hospital tank again, and then start a
copper treatment. I'll continue the copper at 0.25-0.30 ppm for several days
(5?) past any signs of infection at which point I'll remove the Cu through water
changes and just observe them for the remainder of the 6 weeks.
<Follow the manufacturer's directions for length of treatment, too short of a
duration and nothing is accomplished. A minimum of 4 weeks healthy is best after
treatment is done to be reasonably sure the fish have cleared the parasites.
Obviously the longer the better.>
I'll FW dip them one last time before placing back in the display.
Of course, without your guidance in the form of your excellent articles and FAQs
my game plan would have just been a blank sheet of paper with a question mark.
<We all start that way.>
I suppose an additional question is what ongoing role should FW dips play, if
any, during their extended stay in the hospital tanks? Is it more just meant to
be an intermediary step when transferring specimens?
<Once in treatment I would not FW dip, although some people do daily dips.>
Thanks again to all of you.
Best,
Fred
<Please be aware that copper is not the best treatment for some fish, so other
treatment may be more appropriate based on your livestock.>
<Chris>
|
UPDATE: Freshwater
dip - items ejecting from gills? Internal damage done? Holding ones
breath for nine minutes... RO water sans O2 4/9/08
|
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pH drop during freshwater dip Hello Crew, <Tom> Tonight I put a new Longnose Butterfly into our display tank after an apparently successfully crypt treatment. It had broken out with crypt spots just hours after bringing it home from the LFS and placing in QT. Must have had a latent infection because it looked spotless at the LFS... and they claimed it would be parasite-free since they had had it for a couple of weeks. <Mmmm, right... Very few stores (I know of three in the U.S.) have the facilities, discipline... to keep new livestock apart from general...> Anyway, copper and a few weeks of observation cured that problem. As an extra precaution I FW dipped this fish before placing in the display. I used "Proper pH 8.2" to match the dip to the display water. <Mmmm....> Right after I put the fish in the dip, the pH reading on the monitor dropped like a rock, from 8.3 to 7.7 in about a minute. <Glad to see you were monitoring... but how?> Not wanting to risk it, I put the fish into the display after just the short dip. My question is, why would the FW pH drop like this? Not enough buffer? This product supposedly buffers in addition to raising the pH, and if I add too much the pH will rise to 10+. <Mmm, first off... I'm concerned with the test/er... Some part of the API product may have affected it/this... assuredly this degree/suddenness of pH drop is anomalous> Could you recommend a more stable buffer/pH adjuster to use next time? <Just simple sodium bicarbonate... aka baking soda... Won't raise the pH more than about 8.0... is very safe, effective... Am sure you understand my points/drive here...> How about Seachem's Reef Buffer, is that a good one to use to prepare FW dips? Thanks, Tom <I'd stick with Armand Hammer's product... Though Seachem's line of pH, alkalinity products is excellent... Bob Fenner> Re: pH drop during freshwater dip
2-14-08 Re: pH drop during freshwater dip
2-14-08 |
Help! What Went Wrong?... Crypt, info.,
dipping, reading – 02/07/08
Hi crew, I am writing to you right now as a very worried fish keeper. I have
just been given a royal scare by my blue spot puffer fish.
<... a male Ostracion meleagris?>
My tank has recently been infected by the dreaded ich parasite and I am in the
process of procuring all the relevant items I need to quarantine my 6 fish. The
carrier of the disease (my new yellow tang) has been quarantined for one week
now, and I was living in hope that I had noticed the symptoms and moved the
problem fish early enough to avoid an outbreak of ich.
<Mmm, no. By the time symptoms are discovered, this protozoan has already gone
into other stages... leaving the host, reproducing...>
Much to my chagrin I noticed the telltale white spots on my puffer fish this
morning. The plan was to quarantine
<Mmm, let's skip this term... too late... now it's treatment...>
my puffer and my blenny together so I could treat them both with hyposalinity (I
didn't want to subject these two to harmful chemicals such as copper etc).
<... Hyposalinity rarely works... you have not read on WWM re...>
Four of the fish (perc clown, yellow wrasse, strawberry basslet, and Tailspot
blenny) seem to be ok with only the basslet showing any white spots, although I
have seen the blenny flashing against the live rock.
<The system is infested, all fishes need to be removed, treated...>
However, tonight the puffer seemed to be in much discomfort with all of his fins
infested and most of the body covered in white spots. The fish was continuously
scraping against the rocks and substrate and was 'sitting' on the skimmer intake
and turning a black colour. Feeling very sorry for the poor guy I decided to
give him a freshwater dip and relocate him to a 10 litre container with freshly
mixed saltwater by himself.
<The dip's a good idea, the tiny volume, not>
I carefully buffered some RO water to 8.2 pH and added boiled RO water to get
the temp to exactly 79F (temp of the main tank). I then arranged the 10 litre
Rubbermaid with fresh saltwater at 79F nearby and got started.
This was my first attempt at a freshwater dip but I have been reading about them
for some days now in preparation of the inevitable quarantine of all my fish. I
turned the lights off in the main tank and waited a few minutes for the puffer
to settle down in his usual corner. I caught him with the net after a little
chasing and put him into the freshwater. He started swimming straight away and
circled the small bucket several times before staying still and turning black
for a little while. He then started swimming around again and I waited for total
of 8 minutes before netting him again. I thought that the procedure was going
pretty well so far. When I caught the puffer and put him in the newly prepared
saltwater (same pH, specific gravity, temp of the main tank) he sort of freaked
out and started darting back and forth for about 20 seconds then sank to the
bottom of the container upside down, breathing very rapidly!! I sort of freaked
out myself and the
only thing I could think to do under the circumstances was to catch him in the
net and put him back in the main tank which then rendered my freshwater dip
pointless. He swam back and forth and opened his mouth wide which was I found
unusual then lay down on the substrate where he usually sleeps and has remained
there for the past hour breathing very heavily. His eyes are clear and
responsive but I'm so scared I've done the little guy more harm than good. Can
you tell me what has happened or what I've done wrong?
<Likely "just" stress here... perhaps low DO in the dip, new tiny system...>
I did this thinking it was best for one of my favourite fish and now I feel
worse than watching him scratch himself silly with the ich. The puffer is only
an inch and a half long
<What species is this?>
so I thought a 10 litre tank would be fine for that size of fish. He hasn't
moved for hours and I'm afraid he'll be dead or dying by the morning. Ugh what a
bad feeling. I wish someone would hurry up and invent a miracle cure for this
cursed parasite.
<As far as I'm aware there is no such thing currently. There are effective
vaccines, but not sold in the U.S... and the ding dang trade self-enforce simple
exclusionary practices to greatly diminish the import and spread of these
contagions...>
Please let me know if I've done something fundamentally wrong because I'm not
sure I want to carry out any more freshwater dips whilst moving them to the
hospital tanks.
M Wilson
<I need to know the species you're dealing with here... and you need to read
more re the etiology. Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... You have a hard decision, perhaps a few to make...
To try to strike a balance and keep an infested system going as is (a tenuous
proposition), or to remove, treat all your fish livestock, leave the system
fallow... Bob Fenner>
Blue Tang and Freshwater Dip
Hello all,
I just fresh water dipped our small pacific blue after noticing some white
spots. No other signs of Ich in the tank and the fish was in our 29 gal QT
for at least 6 weeks. I didn't want to break out the hospital tank just
yet, so I did a freshwater dip for 5 minutes. After the dip the tang has
laid on the bottom of the display tank for over an hour now, breathing hard.
I turned the lights out to avoid more stress. What went wrong? Is this
fish going to make it?
Its been eating well with no real signs of trouble other than the white
spots this morning and a little scratching to go with it. I'm really sick
about this.
Great website
Thanks for any input/wisdom you may have.
Mark
>>>Hello Mark,
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
While I could type quite a long email about the life cycle of C. irritans, I
suggest you do a search on it's life cycle and become familiar with the
different stages - Trophont, tomont, tomite, etc. You will then see the folly of
doing a freshwater dip once cysts are already present on the fish.
In all likelihood, you Ph shocked the fish, although not being there I can't
rule out temperature factors as well. Moreover, these fish are very sensitive as
it is, one to be avoided to a large degree in my opinion, and certainly one of
the last fish that is going to suffer a freshwater dip. Some fish on the other
hand don't flinch at a freshwater dip. I even left a Koran angel in a freshwater
tank for 20 minutes one time on accident and it was no worse for wear. The fish
you have in your possession unfortunately does not fall into this category.
Going forward, use hyposalinity or a commercial treatment, and forget freshwater
dips, especially on very delicate fish that are already in danger of not making
it without this extra trauma.
Cheers
Jim<<<
Re: A Pacific Blue that didn't appreciate an FW dip
Thanks for the reply, unfortunately I murdered an otherwise healthy fish. I
read many of the accounts on the site and then also talked with a trusted
fellow at the LFS. There are many accounts on the site about FW dipping this
species. All indications were that a Freshwater dip would be the least
aggressive course of action.
<Generally yes>
The dip temp. was within a degree or two and
not lower than the tank. The pH of our tap water (municipal well water) is
such that I don't have to raise it, if anything it's on the high side.
<... as high as saltwater... in the low 8's?>
I
keep a pretty close eye on my fish tanks and since a few spots developed
literally overnight, and also knowing that they are susceptible I wanted to
try to get it under control before I had a full blown outbreak in my main
tank.
<Mmm, if the fish/es are in a main tank, and "spots" show up... the tank is
infested...>
Admittedly I have not FW dipped anything before, I prefer the QT.
however, the FAQ's led me to believe I should be dipping as a prophylactic
and when the LFS suggested it as treatment,
<Mmm, much to state/relate here... preventative dips are useful in receiving,
moving livestock... extended baths/dips can be advantageous in some treatment
strategies>
I thought, what could it hurt,
I'll give it a try. I was very apprehensive about doing it and really
talked myself into it. Now I'm sick about it. I'll not be doing it again
anytime soon.
I do at some elementary level understand that the parasite has a cycle and
the way to beat it is to interrupt that cycle by; speeding it up with
increased temp., vacuuming the substrate to try and catch some of the
swimmers, lowering the salinity (hyposalinity). Etc.....
<All the above are so... but much better to avoid introduction of such
pathogens, their vectors altogether>
Since the fish was
showing absolutely no signs of distress I didn't want to go into full blown
panic mode, rip the tank a part setup the Hospital tank etc..... I don't
remember the last time I got Ich in a FW tank and now 6 months into the SW
experience all heck is breaking loose. I've been diligent with my water
changes, 20-25% every 2 weeks. No troubles with Ammonia, Nitrite since
initial cycle. I'm testing every two weeks for Nitrate before my water
changes and its never been a problem. I know that most diseases are due to
environmental problems, but really I don't know what it would be.
<The "other" components. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm>
Ironically, I have been using the cheap plastic Hydrometer (I know don't say
it) and it showed the s.g. to be in the 1.023 1.024 range. I just bought a
glass tube laboratory type and it measures the s.g at more like 1.018 to
1.019. I expected the reading to be off a bit, but not that much. It's odd
that my salinity is low and yet I still got what I suspected to be Ich.
<Mmm, not that odd... spg/density has to be much lower to exclude most all such
problems>
No
other fish are showing any signs. There are only 3 fish in the tank, 2
yellow damsels, a coral beauty. Should I pull them and treat for Ich or let
it ride?
<I would be treating all in isolation... letting the infested tank go fallow...>
Again great web site, I guess I still have much more reading to do.
Mark
<Sorry to realize your troubles Mark, and appreciative of your efforts at
understanding, having success here. Please do read here as well:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and in turn the above/linked files where you lead yourself. You will make it
past these "different than freshwater" parasite problems and hopefully be
"specific pathogen free" soon. Bob Fenner>
Re: A Pacific Blue that didn't appreciate an FW dip
Thanks again for responding. I'm learning, bear with me. FW was much more
care-free than this, but the fish are way cooler...
Yes the pH of our tap water is in the high 8's, I've tested it periodically
over the last 8 years living here and it's always on the order of 8.6 to
8.8. My Africans loved it.
<I'll bet>
I don't think I pH or temp shocked the fish. I just think I left it in too
long. (that didn't sound too good)
<Happens>
I'll setup the Hospital tank and the first sign I see of hiding, scratching,
etc I'll move them over, treat them, and let the main tank go fallow. 30
days min. right?
<Yes>
So far two days later and no other signs of ich have
surfaced.
<... May not have been ich/crypt>
I did raise the temp and I'm slowly getting it up over 80. I
forgot to mention the Star I have. It's a small Purple "Linckia" or actually
I've learned by reading, Tamaria stria.
<Yes>
Should I do anything special for
it. From what I've read they are not susceptible, can't transmit it, and
will be ok in the tank during the fallow period. Is this correct?
<Correct>
Thanks again, I'll keep trying.
Mark
<Ah, good. Bob Fenner>
Why did my new arrival die? Gobies, QT, Dipping... 8/11/05
Hello Crew,
<Thomas>
I have a question about a Yashia Goby that died about 28 hours after it arrived
by FedEx yesterday. It had been sent FedEx Standard Overnight, and had been in
transit approximately 24 hours before it arrived here.
I gave the fish a very slow acclimation over about 3 hours using a drip
method. Before putting it into the quarantine tank, I prepared a dip of RO/DI
water, dosed with baking soda to a pH of about 8.2 (to match quarantine tank),
<And shipping water?>
and dosed with 2-3 drops of Methylene blue in perhaps a quart of this water.
<Sounds good>
When placed in the dip, the fish went ballistic -- darted around, rolled over on
it's back -- a terrible scene. It may have been in that dip for 2 seconds
before I removed it to a rinse of water from the quarantine tank. Then, after a
minute or so, I put it into the quarantine tank. This was last night about 8
PM.
Since then, it basically hid in the bottom of the tank behind PVC pipe. It
appeared to be breathing hard, when I could briefly see it. Other than that,
there were no obvious symptoms, except a sunken belly, which is very apparent
now that it is dead and I can examine it closely.
Quarantine tank parameters are
specific gravity: 1.025
pH: 8.1
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 20 ppm
temp: 78 deg.
Question is this: Did my dip kill this fish?
<Likely did add stress... but this, most small gobies ship poorly... many do die
soon after arrival... from point to point... and if you read through WWM,
writings by myself, you will find I am not a fan of dipping many such fish
groups, or even quarantining them per se>
If not, how should I think about this event. It is only the second time I've
ordered fish by FedEx. The first time, I ordered tank-raised clown fishes that
I acclimated but did not dip -- these fish were fine and are still happy 18
months later.
<Much hardier... and accustomed to novel, stressful inputs>
Thanks,
Tom
<Bob Fenner>
Freshwater dip for inverts 11/16/05
Hi WWM, I have a few questions regarding freshwater dips for prevention. A number of people I have asked think using a freshwater dip for
invertebrates is detrimental to their health. What do you think?
<Yikes!!! Not only detrimental, but most likely lethal! Also, the types of parasites that can be effectively removed by FW dips generally don't infect inverts.>
Also, I prepared 4 gallons of dip for my first tank additions (some crabs); how long should I keep it for reuse? Thanks for any advice! Jason
<If you use an airstone or a powerhead to prevent the water from stagnating, it should be good for a couple of weeks (just be sure to double check the pH and temp!). Otherwise, I would discard it in a few days. Best Regards,
AdamC.>
Freshwater dipping Zebrasoma flavescens = bad... RO water, no oxygen,
worse by far 3/27/06
PLEASE STOP ADVISING PEOPLE TO FRESHWATER DIP ZEBRASOMA FLAVESCENS FOR ANY
REASON!!
These fish are very delicate
<Mmm, no... on a relative scale, quite hardy>
and I have now lost 2 to this process following the instructions on your website
which I have found repeated in several threads to the "T" as I was trying to rid
each one of the couple of black spot Turbellarians that they had.
<... I have literally done this with hundreds of thousands of this specimens... Am
out in HI on the Big Island where the vast majority of Z. flavescens are
collected, "talked" many of the trop. collectors over the years into this
procedure (pH-adjusted FW dips... with aeration...) to eliminate Crypt,
Amyloodinium, Paravortex... it works, is safe...>
Each time the fish was placed into a well established QT tank for a week and
each were doing fantastic eating sea veggies like there was no tomorrow. I was
planning on 4 weeks in the QT. After the 6 min.s in the temp and pH adjusted
bath using RO water,
<... RO water has no oxygen....>
the fish was dead. This happened to 2 different fish at different times from
different dealers and both fish were fantastic specimens. The only reason I
dipped is because your website said to do this to rid the fish of black spot
which I did not want to introduce into my main.
<No oxygen>
I also don't want to hear that the fish would have died anyways because
observing each for a week beforehand in the QT tells me this is absolute rubbish
regarding these two specimens. Each died as a direct result of the
bath. Having wasted weeks of my time and effort and $70 of my money caring for
these fish and to have them die in minutes following instructions on this
website LEAVES ME EXTREMELY ANGRY!!! I have found other post regarding this
species from people who have had the same experience but the dip is still
recommended. Being such water quality bioassays, advising people to dip
willy-nilly is ridiculous and reckless. I should have stuck with my gut and
allowed the fish to rid themselves of the 2 spots each had with quality water
and food but I thought I could trust this site.
<No oxygen... try holding your breath for six minutes and write me back. Bob
Fenner>
Freshwater Dip gone wrong - 04/16/06
Hi Crew,
<Hi there, Leslie here with you today!>
After much planning and preparation I finally bought my first 2 fish today
(a maroon clown and a royal Gramma). My quarantine tank was ready and my
plan was to first do a freshwater dip with Methylene Blue before putting
them in the quarantine tank. I am sad to say that I think I’ve killed both
fish in the dipping process.
<Oh my, what a bummer. I am so sorry to hear that.>
I treated the tap water, adjusted the temperature and added the Methylene
Blue, but when I added the fish to the dip, it took about 30 seconds and
both fish were lying on their side without moving. I immediately removed
them and placed them in the quarantine tank.
<Perfect, well done.>
It’s been a couple of hours now and they both seem a bit better, but I don’t
know if they are going to survive. Wizards 4 th rule – the greatest harm can
be done with the best intentions… I feel like an animal abuser at the
moment.
<Awwww I’m so sorry. You had no way of knowing that they would not tolerate
the dip. I can certainly empathize.>
Afterwards I realized that in all the excitement I never checked the pH of
the freshwater before dipping them. I’ve done a lot of reading on your site
and “pH-shock” is the best explanation I could find.
<I think you are right on. pH shock often manifests with that side laying
posture.>
I don’t know how quickly pH-shock can kill a fish, but something went very
wrong very quickly.
< I have seen fish respond as yours and go on to do very well. If they were
in good health to begin with they may just need some time to re adjust. They
are both hearty species.>
Unless it was something totally different, like a lack of oxygen or
something.
<I don’t think so. pH shock sounds like the most likely culprit.>
Any ideas?
< No additional ideas.>
This was my first attempt at a freshwater dip, so just one question – is
buffering a freshwater dip simply a matter of adding some “baking soda”
until the pH is at an acceptable level?
<Yup>
Other than that, (if I for example use RO water), it is simply a case of
getting it to the correct temperature and adding the Methylene Blue, right?
<Nope. The pH of RO water has to be adjusted as well.>
Can’t believe I messed this up. Chris
<Please do not be to hard on yourself. You are not the first and will not be
the last person who has forgotten to adjust the pH of a FW dip. We have all
made our fair share of mistakes. We are human and as such not perfect.
Mistakes happen and we hopefully learn from them. Best of luck with your new
fish, Leslie>
Freshwater Dip gone wrong, continued - 04/16/06
Hi Leslie,
<Hi there again!>
Thanks a lot for the reply. I feel better now.
<You’re welcome. Glad I could help.>
I failed miserably on my first attempt at a marine tank a couple of years
ago and although I have done tons more planning and research on
this new attempt I still can’t help feeling a bit paranoid. Promised myself
I will never put anything in my tank without proper quarantine
and research on the animal.. and there I go buying a Maroon clown on impulse
today without knowing anything about it. I hope it wasn't a bad
choice (if I haven’t killed it already).
<There you go beating yourself up again. I had to cut my LFS time down to
the bare minimum and for absolute necessity only. I only go in with blinders
on now because the temptation is just to great. In my case rescuing
seahorses was my great downfall. No worries the Maroon Clown is a fine
choice.>
I started seeing some brown patches on my live rock in the main tank and
worried a bit about a diatom outbreak, but when I looked more closely I
noticed that the brown stuff already seems to be giving way to all sorts of
green and red stuff, so hopefully that's a good sign for this new setup of
mine.
That's enough rambling from me for one day. Enjoy the rest of your Easter
and thanks for the kind words. Chris.
<Enjoy the rest of your Easter as well and you're very welcome, Leslie>
Treating Marine parasites
Anthony, thanks for your thoughts; I agree that FW and Formalin dips can be
very effective; what I meant to say was that by "wasting" that first
week relying on Kick-Ich, the fish are so weakened that they are past the point
of no return.
<ahh... my fault. I misunderstood... but do agree that a lost week can be
fatal>
At least, this is what appears to be the case; I had 4
instances where the fish looked ok, tolerated the dip, but expired a day later;
<yes... and it brings up a good point. FW dips are no more sever (less
actually) than a long-term medicated bath. A properly conducted FW dip is a safe
and effective measure and aquarists can rest assured that any fish that does not
survive a single 5 minute FW dip was not likely to survive anyway>
others (same species, same tank) pulled and dipped the first day
symptoms noted, recovered. I like the FW dips, have little experience with Formalin, but FW still makes me nervous sometimes.
<understood... its natural to be nervous about the FW. Little worries with Formalin
though. Even small scaled species tolerate Formalin (unlike Copper,
Malachite, Methylene blue, etc)>
Are there species less tolerant, with respect to both? Steve.
<there are a handful of relatively uncommon fishes sensitive to FW. A few
popular ones too. Be careful with very small and small scaled fishes like
blennies, gobies, Chromis, Firefish... as well as high hats/drumfish/croakers,
many wrasses and Tuskfish (jumpers). Most of the common and hardy species
benefit by FW dips though (tangs, damsels and clowns, triggers, groupers, most
angels, etc). Best regards, Anthony>
Re: Lemonpeel angel
Hello, this is Jodie,
<Hi Jodie, Don here today>
I noticed my lemon peel angel had a minute amount of ick, so I gave him a
freshwater bath and some parasites popped off of him. I only had him in the bath
for maybe 2 min.s. at the most, so I placed him back in the tank and
he went straight to the bottom and breathed hard for about 30 min and then
died. would he have stressed out soo bad that he died???
<So sorry to hear. Did you temperature and pH adjust the dip to match the
tank? Did you aerate the water well, before/during the dip? If so, then the fish
was likely under extreme duress from the parasite. Don>
Deadly Dip?
Crew:
<Scott F. your crew member tonight!>
I want to both share a story and ask a question : I purchased a previously owned
Coral Beauty that was living at the LFS for just 3 hours since the owner
repatriated him (her) back to the store after 3 months (tank tear-down.) I
watched this fish for quite a while and it appeared very, very healthy, with a
strikingly gorgeous blue tone and an insatiable appetitive for brine shrimp.
I did a gradual (45 minute) acclimation procedure mixing the LFS water with
small amounts of the destination tank water, vigorously aerating its acclimation
bucket, and this guy seemed happy and raring to go the whole time. Then I added
Kordon's Methylene Blue, upping the recommended dosage from the bottle's
instructions by about two-fold (hearing that it is hard to overdose almost
anything on M.B.). I kept her in there about 15 minutes, then transferred her to
a pH & temp adjusted fresh water bath (de-chlorinated & pHed with Amquel
& Proper pH 8.2.) This lovely creature immediately sunk on its side and
never regained
any of its vibrancy from that point forward. After about 5 minutes of the fresh
water, I transferred its seemingly shocked body to the destination tank, where
it floated to the bottom and made a few feeble attempts at gill-breathing before
it convulsed into a rigor mortis - like "C" curve, taking its
unbearable beauty and energy to the grave with it, a scant 1 hour after leaving
the LFS.
What did I do wrong? Somewhat shamed, SLC
<First of all, SLC- don't blame yourself. It really seems like you did
everything right here. The freshwater/Methylene blue technique is successfully
used by hobbyists and aquariums around the world, and I have used this technique
myself without incident for years. Remember, however, that the purpose of this
dip is to induce a certain degree of osmotic shock to potential parasites that
might be on the fish's skin. Although this procedure is generally fatal to
parasites, which cannot handle the osmotic "stretch" like the fishes
can, you will occasionally run into a fish that cannot do well, either. The fish
in question was in several different environments in the hours leading up to
your tragedy. Perhaps the fish, despite its apparently unaffected behavior, was
already stressed seriously...The dip may have "pushed it over the
edge". Just a possibility. The bottom line is- you did it right...Don't let
this discourage you in the future. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
Epilogue: Deadly Dip
Thanks Crew (Scott F.) for your words of encouragement. I will not get
frustrated at this setback, albeit I was hoping that I did *something* wrong to
cause this tragedy. It's much easier to change what I did than to accept that
underwater critters simply die sometimes, in a mysterious and unpredictable
ways. What's most saddening is not the loss of $30, but of a fellow living
creature -in my charge - from this miniscule and fragile water-logged
space rock we call Earth! Again Thanks, SLC
<Your attitude is sooo good! Your compassion and love for these animals will
bring you continued success for many years to come! Chin up! Regards, Scott
F>
Dip
Hello Bob!
How long should a typical dip/bath be for a newly acquired fish or an
attempt to slough off ich for small fishes, such as a clownfish or a young
Naso? Or should it be based on fishes behaviour while undergoing?
<Yes. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm>
I
introduced a false Percula into my system after a 1 minute or so dip and the
little trooper is exhibiting signs of ich.
<Too short a dip time>
The stages seem rather advanced
considering I purchased him on Saturday so I assume I received one that was
stressed/infested from the store. The next day a Lysmata Shrimp was alsopurchased to help curb the infestation in the fish's favor and am now
raising temp and lowering SPG to also favor host. A territorial damselfish
chases the little Perc around so I have isolated the Percula in a large,
clear, plastic cylinder with holes and an airstone within the main system to
stop the damsel from further stressing the false Perc. Hindsight is 20/20
<I'm quoting you!>
with a quarantine tank; luckily I only have hearty damsels, LR, and some
inverts, in the tank other than the Percula so I think I can beat this
little outbreak.
<I'm rootin' for you>
I'll let you know how it turns out have read most of
your articles/FAQ regarding ich/parasites so I feel equipped). Thanks.
MLS
Michael L. Stewart
<Be chatting. Bob Fenner>
Freshwater dip effectiveness
Dear Bob,
Since I have rapidly spreading bubble algae in my tank, I had been trying to
decide on whether to go with a Mithrax crab or a Red Sea Sailfin Tang.
<Perhaps both>
My
LFS had the most beautiful 5 inch Red Sea Sailfin tang, and because I've
heard that some Mithrax crabs don't actually eat the stuff anyway, I decided
to spend the extra $ and go with the Sailfin tang. He had been in their
tank for a couple of months, and I visited him often. He was eating well
and looked good in the store.
<Ok>
However, I apparently have much better lighting than the LFS, because as I
was floating the bag in my tank, I noticed a couple dozen ich spots which
were not noticeable in the store!!
<Perhaps became more noticeable during transit/stress>
I continued acclimating him, but
immediately mixed up a batch of Methylene blue dip for him. The dip was
pretty blue, so I could not see exactly how he was doing in it. But when he
appeared to stop thrashing and just lie on his side after about 30 seconds,
I took him out, gave a quick dip in another bucket of clear water, and put
him into the tank. He was scared at first and breathing heavily, but later
came around and began dutifully picking at all of the bubble algae. (YES!
This guy is awesome!!)
<Good>
But I am now worried whether everything will be ok, because even after the
dip I still see white spots on him. Should these come off in the dip, or do
they just stay on and die?
<The spots aren't actually "living", but marks of/from the fish>
I would really hate to have to quarantine him
and stress him out any further. I have a cleaner shrimp who appeared to be
beckoning him, but I haven't seen him actually perform any cleaning yet.
Your expert advice is greatly appreciated!
Thank you,
Laura
<Just wait for now... likely all will be fine. Bob Fenner>
Freshwater Dips - Problems
Bob,
Need your help diagnosing what I am doing wrong with my freshwater dip protocol for new fish.
In the past, I was using a 'pH right 8.2' type product to adjust the pH but had problems - the fish went nuts (airborne, erratic movements for first 15-30
sec.s, with the fish then falling to the bottom in a motionless state - at which point I would take them out). I started using a
pH pen (instead of litmus paper tests)
<"litmus" means "garbage" in certain native Indian tongues...hehe>
to check the ph and found that I was overshooting the ph with the 8.2 product (I was getting a ph of 9 - 10, which I suspect
caused the problem).
<Doh!!!! That will do it, yes>
Anyway, now I use baking soda and a pH pen and seem to have success with freshwater dips, but have problems AFTER the dip. Here's my protocol:
1) Set up quarantine tank (has water from main display tank) temp-77F, PH-8.0-8.2, Alk 9.8,
<OK... although a bit low for future reference on pH and ALK (target 12dKH and 8.3 night to 8.6 day)>
2) set up freshwater dip:
temp 77F, PH 8.0, airstone in 1 gal dip tank runs for 2 hours to oxygenate and continues to run in corner of dip while fish are treated.
<excellent>
I use Methyl-blue (a 5% mix. I add several drops to the 1 gal dip container until the solution is deep blue).
<fine for most fishes, but do be careful with scale-less and sensitive species... organic dyes are very toxic to some>
3) When I get the fish, I do the following before dipping:
A) - float bag in container of salt water (not same container as dip or q-tank) for 15
min.s to adjust temp to 77F.
<very wise... outside of bag may have contaminants from where it has sat>
B) open bag and pour contents into a hard plastic container.
C) I add salt water (ph=8.0-8.2, alk=9.8, temp=77F) to the plastic container with shipping water gradually, over 30
min.s, until I've tripled the original shipping volume (this is an attempt to slowly adjust the shipping water's PH to 2/3 of the way to PH of 8.0.
<excellent... and you can shorten this for nervous fishes toward 15 minutes>
4) I begin the dip:
I use a small plastic container to scoop the fish out of the container in step#3 instead of a net (minimize stress)
<agreed>
and attempt to drain most of the water from container used to scoop the fish before adding the fish to the dip mix. The fish seem to tolerate the dip well -
<as they should... very good protocol thus far>
they may exhibit some rapid movement initially, but continue to swim around throughout the dip - no jumping.
<agreed...even lethargy is acceptable and common (lying down even on their side "resting" is normal and OK for most>
I run the dip for up to 20 min.s (to eliminate Brooklynella, which I've heard requires a 15 min dip).
<to many peoples surprise I agree with you... Dips less than 3 minutes are a
waste of time. Most all fish need a minimum of 5 minutes. I run 5 to 10 minutes. Although going to 15 or even 20 requires close observation and is not recommended with more than a few species (high hats,
jacknives,
some wrasses, etc)>
5) I move the fish from the dip to the quarantine tank. Here's where the problem begins: The fish sink to bottom, with rapid gill movement, but lethargic fish activity. I had a cinnamon clown that died 1 day later (never recovered from the
lethargy) and it had several pinhead sized sores on its body (looked like the flesh had 'popped' under the scales). There were NO sores on the fins. Another angel (keyhole), died within 1 hour of being placed in the q-tank (no visible sores, but it had rapid gill movement/lethargy).
<for starters, Brooklynella is seasonal and uncommon (commonly seen in clowns and Hawaiian species). I think your dip may be longer than needed for most if you do not suspect a virulent pathogen. 5-7 minutes is fine for most pathogens>
What am I doing wrong in step 5? I suspect the fish might become acclimated to the Methyl-blue in the dip, and then suffer oxy starvation
when they go to the saltwater q-tank (no Methyl-b).
<the angel is very sensitive to the organic dye. No dyes or copper for dwarf angels,
scaleless fish and more>
Or, I might have too rapidly moved then from freshwater to saltwater and caused a reverse shock (fluid rapid goes out of their body - explaining the pinhead sores in step 5, and possibly damaging gills).
<a brackish acclimation might be nice but is not routine or necessary for most...
I think this has mostly to do with the excessive dip time... rarely need that long. Although I'm very glad to see an aquarists with faith who is not shy about dips. Most aquarists fret and dip too short and ineffectively then blame the FW dip for not working>
A few other questions:
A) should I slowly drop the salinity in the freshwater dip (i.e., take them from 1.023 to 1.0 over a two hour period, to reduce stress.
<more harm than good due to temp issues and extended stress of confinement>
Would this reduce the effectiveness of the dip on parasites)?
<definitely IMO>
B) should I slowly raise the salinity from 1.0 to 1.023 (i.e., over an hour or two) when moving the fish from the FW-dip to the q-tank?
<10 minutes if at all>
C) should I slowly dilute the level of methyl-b (i.e. over an hour or two) when moving the fish from the FW-dip to the
QTank - or eliminate it from by FW dip steps?
<research the appropriateness of M blue by species>
Could the fish become 'acclimated' to the high oxygen environment in the FW caused by the methyl-B, and then be
suffocating when
I move them to the saltwater
<not in such a short period of time>
Lastly, are FW dips supposed to be this difficult?
<not at all... short and sweet and very effective. You have almost got it right>
What should I expect the survival rate (up to 5 days after the dip) to be for fish that go thru it - I was expecting it to be in the high 90%.
<agreed. It is more successful and less stress than a drawn out and noxious chemo treatment with medications (as with 21 day copper)>
Thanks!
<best regards, Anthony>
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