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FAQs on Dips/Baths Dangers
Related Articles: Dips/Baths,
Methylene Blue,
Formalin/Formaldehyde, Quarantine,
Tank Troubleshooting, Toxic Tank
Conditions, Environmental Disease
(incl. Lymphocystis),
Nutritional Disease, Infectious Diseases,
Parasitic Diseases, Wound Management
(/aquarists), A Livestock Treatment
System, Related FAQs:
Dips/Baths 1, Dips/Baths 2,
Dips/Baths 3, & FAQs on Dip/Bath:
Rationale/Use, Methods,
Tools, Adjusting pH,
Additives, Iodine/ide/ate, Lugol's Use,
Methylene Blue, Formalin/Formaldehyde,
Products, &
Best Quarantine FAQs, Quarantine, Acclimation
1, Acclimating Invertebrates,
Acclimation of Livestock in the Business, |
Are your fishes strong enough to stand a dip/bath? |
Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite... Commercial Crypt
remedies, prevention - 07/19/08
Hello, I was wondering if anyone
on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with
crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as
copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)?
<Some folks report success with such... perhaps their trials involve
fishes with only superficial infestations... maybe these are principally
only symptomatic...>
I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a
separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use
freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which
also house invertebrate life.
<Mmm... I strongly suggest that they,
you do a bit of further considering here... I would do FW baths on
arrival (pH adjusted, with formalin if a commercial setting)... and even
better to best, keep all incoming fish livestock quarantined for a few
weeks before showing, offering it to the public... I would NOT mix fish
and invertebrate livestock in a wholesale or retail setting... period>
No option for separate treatment in a different tank. So while not my
favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to
fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the
bath, duration of the bath you find effective.
<Won't be... like the
idea of invading countries, murdering their citizens to "make people
free", this idea is contrary to reality. How to put this another way...
it won't work>
And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water
change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any
other methods with it such as melafix
<... API should be sued back to
the stone ages for this and other faux products and their promotion.
Really. Have stated this often and loudly enough. This product is
garbage>
for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies /
shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might
contribute to a recovery.
<All this is gone over and over on WWM>
I was considering fw bath repeated daily for 14 days,
<... no... too
much time, trouble, and stress on the fish livestock. Ridiculous>
7
min duration, gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every
fourth day or so, melafix dosed daily,
<Please...>
few cleaning
shrimp there for luck.
<Don't rely on luck...>
Considering use of
a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. Trading out
treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of
the parasites free swimming stage. experience and suggestions
appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan
<Thank you for
sharing Jonathan. A note to browsers through time... this is actually an
indicative case, window into the thinking, operation of the trade... A
reminder that many folks, though honest, of good intent, don't really
know much re the science of actual husbandry of ornamental aquatics. Bob
Fenner>
Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine
parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008
Again my hand is forced by my
employer's policy, ie p*tco.
<Mmm, do know that I worked at corp...
as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of
aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal>
I don't agree with the policy
and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by
the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated
quarantine / treatment systems.
<I... empathize>
Either you quit /
walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had
results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial
damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be.
There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath
method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion
responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's
harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper>
<Yes>
The fish
has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank.
One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different
tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the
animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath /
gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a
hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank",
"I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering
of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not
anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos.
<... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet
with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your
input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy.
Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the
introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems>
The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its
duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how
much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming
to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10
gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater.
<It/this can be
done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the
underlying principles>
I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do
its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would
freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more
appropriate?
<Yes>
As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have
done those,
<Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust>
and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this
problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week,
and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given
proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing
proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of
its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it.
The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items
I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to
poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and
gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those
who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all
the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't
have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that
can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so.
Sorry to go
on,
No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised
procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel
vacuum water change?
<Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel
vacuumed>
I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing
this as an alternative to a more proven technique.
<Just... not
something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely
procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too
stressful, too likely to not work>
cheers,
hand cuffed employee
<Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>
Chain Stores 7/21/08
Bob,
<Tom>
Read this, wanted to give
some input.
""Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine
parasite, Crypt 07/20/2008
Again my hand is forced by my
employer's policy, ie p*tco.
<Mmm, do know that I worked at corp.....
as a consultant/buyer for this co.
91-94... to bring in/make sense of
aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal>
I don't agree with the policy
and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by
the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated
quarantine / treatment systems.
<I... empathize>
Either you quit /
walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had
results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial
damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be.
There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath
method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion
responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's
harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper>
<Yes>
The fish
has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank.
One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different
tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the
animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath /
gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a
hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank",
"I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering
of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not
anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos.
<... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet
with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your
input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy.
Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the
introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems>
The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its
duration.
How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how
much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming
to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10
gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater.
<It/this can be
done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the
underlying principles>
I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do
its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would
freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more
appropriate?
<Yes>
As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have
done those,
<Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust>
and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this
problem.
But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that
week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were
given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing
proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of
its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it.
The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items
I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to
poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and
gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those
who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all
the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't
have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that
can be recovered.
Not that I lack the knowledge to do so.
Sorry to
go on,
No one on the crew has any recommendations for this
compromised procedure?
Frequency/duration of bath, frequency,
percentage of gravel vacuum water change?
<Five-seven minutes...
daily, all the gravel vacuumed>
I think 'ridiculous' was what I first
thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique.
<Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)...
as
a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much
work, too stressful, too likely to not work>
cheers,
hand cuffed
employee
<Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob
Fenner>""
We've got these stores here, in the Houston area.
<Ah, yes... I know. I spent some time there, doing physical
inventories... in the early nineties, for PetCo, when I worked for them
as a consultant/buyer. A very nice town, folks>
In fact, I bought my
Passer Angel from them some time ago, in ignorant times, and as I look
back I am pretty sure my crypt issues may have started with this fish.
Thank goodness all is well now and the Passer thrives. This store does
offer a saltwater market at locales where small private stores might not
have a market to survive (small towns, etc), so I think they're a good
thing to some extent. but I find their methods and livestock care
techniques quite lacking.
<Too often the case...>
I feel it's
their responsibility to their customers and the livestock to provide a
better product. By that I mean service quality and education. I tell
people who are interested in marine fish that its easy. if done
correctly and you follow guidelines. One
example at this store that I
find bad is keeping LR and inverts in the same systems as their fish,
making their fish 'untreatable' in reality.
All of this, I would
think, is easily remedied if the company would decide to do it.
<And
more pre-eminently, cared and "knew" what to do...>
And I would think
it is certainly in the best interest of their customers and our hobby in
the big picture of things. Think of it; surely the large majority of
people who are exposed to marine aquaria begin their adventures in a
store like this. They always carry Nemos and Dorys and yellow tangs. And
often, I'm sure, their intentions are good, asking the clerk about
marine tanks, and what equipment they need, what are the requirements
for care, etc. Can you imagine the responses they get? Just by looking
over the accessories carried on the shelves, I can tell you they are
probably providing the wrong answers.
<Happens... so... of course
(per moi) the question: "What do we do to make this better?">
One of
the branch stores here, the one I purchased my angel from in fact, has
well intentioned and intelligent employees.
<Ah, good>
All they
lack, I would guess, is a bit of education and the resources necessary
to do their job.
Here we have a large number of readers who I'm sure
have similar concerns of the writer of the email below. Perhaps he can
provide us with the most effective contact information necessary to
express our concerns. I'm sure that there are many of us who would take
time to send an email, I certainly would.
Just some thoughts.
Thomas
<Thank you Tom. BobF>
Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Benjamin's input
Ich Treatment - 7/22/08
Hello,
<Hello there!>
I was wondering if anyone on the team has
had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a
freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper
treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)?
<mm...can work, but very labor intensive>
I'm more of a Cupramine guy
myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would
like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display /
selling tanks which also house invertebrate life. No option for separate
treatment in a different tank.
<Not optimal...kudos to your employer
for desiring to treat, but it sounds like conventional restraints still
apply.>
So while not my favorite option it will probably still give
results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could
tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find
effective. And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the
frequency and percentage of water changed.
<I would go with a pH
adjusted freshwater bath for as long as the fish can stand it the first
time (thrashes, breathes very heavily, etc) , and then for 5-10 minutes
a dip after that.>
If you use any other methods with it such as
melafix
<Bunk product, save your money>
for bacterial infections
of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or
anything else which might contribute to a recovery.
<Perhaps a bit of
Methylene blue chloride in the dip>
I was considering Fw bath
repeated daily for 14 days, 7 min duration,
<I'd shoot for twice
daily, if the fish can stomach it. Keep in mind this will be VERY
stressful as the sole method of treating fish...>
gravel vacuuming
bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so,
<Do this
daily>
melafix dosed daily,
<Skip it, worthless>
few cleaning
shrimp there for luck. Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of
melafix, but not likely.
<Much better choice...UV>
Trading out
treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of
the parasites free swimming stage.
<Secondary infections unlikely
with crypt., melafix would do nothing in any case. You'll need all the
help you can get eliminating free-swimming and bottom-dwelling stages.>
experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your
time, Jonathan
<Do keep in mind all fish will need to be
treated...and I still am doubtful as to effectiveness as more that
aesthetic triage>
<Benjamin>
Treating an Ich Outbreak and FW dip questions 4/23/08
Hello all,
<Hello>
No question addressed to you should start without expressing
an unbelievable amount of gratitude for all of your hard work. It is
very much appreciated.
<Thanks>
My problem today is an ich
outbreak that I am trying to treat. I am pulling all my fish from the
main display of course and setting up hospital tanks for all of them. I
gave everyone a long pH and temp adjusted FW dip with Methylene blue the
other day for ~10 min.s. They all seemed to handle it extremely well
albeit that most were pretty spooked from capture and handling.
<Can
be a little stressful, but if the fish is still reasonable health, is
worth the effort.>
I was under the impression that the FW dip would
lyse or pop the parasites.
<Some that are not already too deep into
the tissue.>
Today I woke up to see what looked like an even worse
infestation on all of my fish (Heniochus acuminatus and Foxface).
<Definitely not a cure-all, or really a cure, but helpful in knocking
down the infection a bit, allows some fish's immune system to catch up,
but often more aggressive treatment is necessary.>
The white spots
seem to have multiplied 3x fold.
<Typical of an ich infection.>
Are some stages of the parasite not affected by the dip?
<Only
parasites on the fish, but not so deep into the fish's tissue that the
fish's body protects it, are susceptible to the FW dip.>
My game plan
as it stands now is to keep the display fallow for 6 weeks and to
re-FWdip these guys, sterilize their hospital tank again, and then start
a copper treatment. I'll continue the copper at 0.25-0.30 ppm for
several days (5?) past any signs of infection at which point I'll remove
the Cu through water changes and just observe them for the remainder of
the 6 weeks.
<Follow the manufacturer's directions for length of
treatment, too short of a duration and nothing is accomplished. A
minimum of 4 weeks healthy is best after treatment is done to be
reasonably sure the fish have cleared the parasites. Obviously the
longer the better.>
I'll FW dip them one last time before placing
back in the display.
Of course, without your guidance in the form of
your excellent articles and FAQs my game plan would have just been a
blank sheet of paper with a question mark.
<We all start that way.>
I suppose an additional question is what ongoing role should FW dips
play, if any, during their extended stay in the hospital tanks? Is it
more just meant to be an intermediary step when transferring specimens?
<Once in treatment I would not FW dip, although some people do daily
dips.>
Thanks again to all of you.
Best,
Fred
<Please be
aware that copper is not the best treatment for some fish, so other
treatment may be more appropriate based on your livestock.>
<Chris>
UPDATE: Freshwater dip - items ejecting from gills? Internal damage
done? Holding ones breath for nine minutes... RO water sans O2
4/9/08
Crew -
<Joel>
I know you've not had a chance to
even read my first post,
<Mmm, perhaps someone else has responded
to this now...>
but I'm confused and upset. Sadly, the
Paracanthurus did not survive. I feel horrible. In analyzing my
every step, I cannot figure out where I failed. The only thing I can
think of is that I must've handled the freshwater dip incorrectly.
At this point I expect the crew to tell me that the apparent
paralysis for the first 5 minutes upon entering the water was a bad
sign. When it happened, I recalled Bob's comments on WWM that it's
harder on the owner than the fish.
<... yes, often the case>
I've considered that I raised the PH of the water too high, but my
Red Sea tests showed Alkalinity and PH were fine.
<What were
these values?>
The only questionable thing I can find in the
analysis of my actions is this: the PH stayed yellow (not on color
scale), even after adding Red Sea's buffering agent drops to the
gallon
<Mmm, would just use baking soda... sodium bicarbonate>
or so of RO freshwater.
<Stop! You did aerate this I
hope/trust... RO water has no dissolved gas... no oxygen...>
So I
added a few more drops. Barely light purple (just at 8.0). A couple
more drops and the color went back to yellow.
I decided my
buffering agent might be bad and did some reading on your site.
I
found a crew comment that the PH might not be buffering and it might
"bounce back" if I try again. So, I added a few more drops. Still
yellow.
Finally, I added baking soda and the PH immediately
registered between 8.2 and 8.4.
<Ah, good>
Could I have
completely overdone the buffer regardless of the reading? What else
could explain the (now apparent) gill damage that I must've done
after 9 minutes?
<... the RO/dip-bath water must need be
aerated... even during such procedures... to provide oxygen>
I'm
afraid of trying this again and killing another beautiful specimen
out of my own stupidity. Please give me some hope that I shouldn't
give up.
Regards,
Joel Pippin
<You are not the first case
of such troubles... Am wondering if I should re-emphasize the
aeration, actually all steps of said protocol/s... with the use of
sidebars, lists... Aeration I believe here was the real source of
trouble. Bob Fenner>
Re: UPDATE: Freshwater dip - items ejecting from gills? Internal
damage done? Note: add emphasis on articles re aerating dip
water 4/9/08
Thanks for the reply. I'll look up how to
provide continual aeration, but I suppose an airstone in the
water before and during the entire procedure would do the trick?
<Yes... the RO water is very close to being absolutely "flat"...
sans gas, w/o aeration>
I've never done any aeration; I buy
my fresh and saltwater from the LFS, allowing the saltwater to
age... but assuming the vigorous mixing in of the salt at the
store is enough aeration. I never knew RO was devoid of gases
until now, despite all my reading. Yes, please emphasize this
step as you do PH adjustment for us who are <1 year in the
hobby.
<Will do>
Is an airstone the best option here or
some other small pump?
<A mechanical aerator (pump, tubing,
"stone") is best here>
Regards,
Joel
<And you, BobF>
Freshwater dip - items ejecting from gills? Internal damage
done?
Hello Crew!
<Joel... is this your prev. email? A
bit confusing... as it is coming in some time after the
latter...>
I've just received a beautiful Indian Yellow
Bellied Blue Hippo Tang from LiveAquaria's Diver's Den, and
after a drip acclimation of about an hour, I gave her a PH/temp
adjusted freshwater dip per the reading I've done here,
monitoring closely. I've tried to find information about various
fish reactions on the site, but could not find any so I'll ask.
The instant she hit the freshwater, she arched to one side and
froze in this posture until
minute 5. I've seen this before,
so I wasn't too shocked. However, at minute 9 of my intended 10,
puffs of what I can only describe as "smoke" appeared to come
out of her gills.
<!?>
A took this as one of those "signs
of stress" I should be monitoring for, and promptly removed her
to the tank where she will be housed. I know opinions vary, but
I'm working from Bob's comments in regards to this species and
the stress of QT. Okay, so now she's in the tank behind a rock
breathing heavily. She shooed away the Skunk Cleaner when he
came by, but I noticed one or two more of these "puffs" from her
gills, and
one had a ting of reddish hue to it. I wasn't
overly concerned until the Nassarius snails took an interest and
had to be moved away. As you know,
being masters of "death
notification" in a tank (say, if a Cerith dies), I'm in a bit of
a panic. Of course I'll keep to actinics only for awhile and
give her a chance to adjust, but should I be worried about
internal damage from the dip at this point? She's been panting
for an hour.
Best Regards,
Joel Pippin
<I've amended
the dip/bath article per our earlier email... to include
hopefully adequate emphasis on aeration of the water... BobF> |
|
pH drop during freshwater dip
Hello Crew,
<Tom>
Tonight I put a new Longnose Butterfly into our display tank after
an apparently successfully crypt treatment. It had broken out with
crypt spots just hours after bringing it home from the LFS and
placing in QT. Must have had a latent infection because it looked
spotless at the LFS... and they claimed it would be parasite-free
since they had had it for a couple of weeks.
<Mmmm, right... Very
few stores (I know of three in the U.S.) have the facilities,
discipline... to keep new livestock apart from general...>
Anyway, copper and a few weeks of observation cured that problem.
As an extra precaution I FW dipped this fish before placing in the
display. I used "Proper pH 8.2" to match the dip to the display
water.
<Mmmm....>
Right after I put the fish in the dip, the
pH reading on the monitor dropped like a rock, from 8.3 to 7.7 in
about a minute.
<Glad to see you were monitoring... but how?>
Not wanting to risk it, I put the fish into the display after just
the short dip.
My question is, why would the FW pH drop like
this? Not enough buffer? This product supposedly buffers in addition
to raising the pH, and if I add too much the pH will rise to 10+.
<Mmm, first off... I'm concerned with the test/er... Some part of
the API product may have affected it/this... assuredly this
degree/suddenness of pH drop is anomalous>
Could you recommend a
more stable buffer/pH adjuster to use next time?
<Just simple
sodium bicarbonate... aka baking soda... Won't raise the pH more
than about 8.0... is very safe, effective... Am sure you understand
my points/drive here...>
How about Seachem's Reef Buffer, is that
a good one to use to prepare FW dips?
Thanks,
Tom
<I'd
stick with Armand Hammer's product... Though Seachem's line of pH,
alkalinity products is excellent... Bob Fenner>
Re: pH drop during freshwater dip 2-14-08
Hi Bob,
<Tom>
I was monitoring this FW dip with a Reef Fanatic pH unit
<Mmm, this looks to be a good re-packaged product... I see they
provide some standards for pHs of 4.0 and 7.0... Did you calibrate
this device to a higher pH than this?>
I bought recently. I
always used to use just a simple API color pH test when preparing FW
dips, but inadvertently killed a nice Solorensis wrasse not too long
ago with a dip that was pH and temp adjusted, and aerated... he just
seemed to have a stroke/seizure and died within seconds.
<Can/does happen at times... particularly with "tightly wound"
species as this>
After the wrasse died I tested the dip water
with a color test and the pH was in the mid 7's. I couldn't think of
anything else I did wrong,
<Had you added some other product to
the water? Formalin perchance?>
so this time around I pulled the
electronic monitor out of the display to watch what happened with
the butterfly. Sure enough, the pH started dropping as soon as the
fish hit the water.
<Some drop might be expected... from carbon
dioxide from the specimen/s... but nothing this vast...>
Very
strange, but I've now seen this happen twice, using two different pH
test methods. I won't be using this API product any more... even
though I've dipped other fish at least a half-dozen times using the
same method.
<I have done these dips... tens of thousands of
times... "Sold" the practice to MANY wholesale, collector and
tranship companies as a friend, consultant... This is a tried and
true "technology">
As always, your time and comments are much
appreciated and I just made a long overdue donation on your Amazon
payment system.
Tom
<Thank you, BobF>
Re: pH drop during freshwater dip 2-14-08
Hi Bob -
answers to your questions:
<Welcome>
This pH monitor only
calibrates to 4 and 7. I liked this feature since the main reason I
got it was to monitor the calcium reactor. But you bring up a good
point in that I should get some ph 10 fluid and see how accurate it
is at higher pH.
<Yes>
The FW dip was pure RO water with a TDS
of zero.
<Oh! This could be "it"... no buffering capacity
either...>
No formalin or anything else, other than what might be
in the API pH conditioner. I tried to find out what's in it, but
their material safety data sheet only says that it contains three
different "trade secrets".
<Mmm, not so secret... these are "the
usual suspects" used in such admixtures>
Thanks again for sharing
your experiences. Loads of great things about this hobby, but
killing animals with my own ignorance has to be one of the low
points.
Tom
<Mine too Tom... my efforts here are likely to
some degree made out of a sense of recompense for the many errors of
my past. Cheers, BobF> |
Help! What Went Wrong?... Crypt, info., dipping, reading –
02/07/08
Hi crew, I am writing to you right now as a very worried
fish keeper. I have just been given a royal scare by my blue spot puffer
fish.
<... a male Ostracion meleagris?>
My tank has recently been
infected by the dreaded ich parasite and I am in the process of
procuring all the relevant items I need to quarantine my 6 fish. The
carrier of the disease (my new yellow tang) has been quarantined for one
week now, and I was living in hope that I had noticed the symptoms and
moved the problem fish early enough to avoid an outbreak of ich.
<Mmm, no. By the time symptoms are discovered, this protozoan has
already gone into other stages... leaving the host, reproducing...>
Much to my chagrin I noticed the telltale white spots on my puffer fish
this morning. The plan was to quarantine
<Mmm, let's skip this
term... too late... now it's treatment...>
my puffer and my blenny
together so I could treat them both with hyposalinity (I didn't want to
subject these two to harmful chemicals such as copper etc).
<...
Hyposalinity rarely works... you have not read on WWM re...>
Four of
the fish (perc clown, yellow wrasse, strawberry basslet, and Tailspot
blenny) seem to be ok with only the basslet showing any white spots,
although I have seen the blenny flashing against the live rock.
<The
system is infested, all fishes need to be removed, treated...>
However, tonight the puffer seemed to be in much discomfort with all of
his fins infested and most of the body covered in white spots. The fish
was continuously scraping against the rocks and substrate and was
'sitting' on the skimmer intake and turning a black colour. Feeling very
sorry for the poor guy I decided to give him a freshwater dip and
relocate him to a 10 litre container with freshly mixed saltwater by
himself.
<The dip's a good idea, the tiny volume, not>
I
carefully buffered some RO water to 8.2 pH and added boiled RO water to
get the temp to exactly 79F (temp of the main tank). I then arranged the
10 litre Rubbermaid with fresh saltwater at 79F nearby and got started.
This was my first attempt at a freshwater dip but I have been reading
about them for some days now in preparation of the inevitable quarantine
of all my fish. I turned the lights off in the main tank and waited a
few minutes for the puffer to settle down in his usual corner. I caught
him with the net after a little chasing and put him into the freshwater.
He started swimming straight away and circled the small bucket several
times before staying still and turning black for a little while. He then
started swimming around again and I waited for total of 8 minutes before
netting him again. I thought that the procedure was going pretty well so
far. When I caught the puffer and put him in the newly prepared
saltwater (same pH, specific gravity, temp of the main tank) he sort of
freaked out and started darting back and forth for about 20 seconds then
sank to the bottom of the container upside down, breathing very
rapidly!! I sort of freaked out myself and the
only thing I could
think to do under the circumstances was to catch him in the net and put
him back in the main tank which then rendered my freshwater dip
pointless. He swam back and forth and opened his mouth wide which was I
found unusual then lay down on the substrate where he usually sleeps and
has remained there for the past hour breathing very heavily. His eyes
are clear and responsive but I'm so scared I've done the little guy more
harm than good. Can you tell me what has happened or what I've done
wrong?
<Likely "just" stress here... perhaps low DO in the dip, new
tiny system...>
I did this thinking it was best for one of my
favourite fish and now I feel worse than watching him scratch himself
silly with the ich. The puffer is only an inch and a half long
<What
species is this?>
so I thought a 10 litre tank would be fine for that
size of fish. He hasn't moved for hours and I'm afraid he'll be dead or
dying by the morning. Ugh what a bad feeling. I wish someone would hurry
up and invent a miracle cure for this cursed parasite.
<As far as I'm
aware there is no such thing currently. There are effective vaccines,
but not sold in the U.S... and the ding dang trade self-enforce simple
exclusionary practices to greatly diminish the import and spread of
these contagions...>
Please let me know if I've done something
fundamentally wrong because I'm not sure I want to carry out any more
freshwater dips whilst moving them to the hospital tanks.
M Wilson
<I need to know the species you're dealing with here... and you need to
read more re the etiology. Start here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above...
You have a hard decision, perhaps a few to make... To try to strike a
balance and keep an infested system going as is (a tenuous proposition),
or to remove, treat all your fish livestock, leave the system fallow...
Bob Fenner>
Blue Tang and Freshwater Dip
Hello
all,
I just fresh water dipped our small pacific blue after noticing
some white spots. No other signs of Ich in the tank and the fish was in
our 29 gal QT for at least 6 weeks. I didn't want to break out the
hospital tank just yet, so I did a freshwater dip for 5 minutes. After
the dip the tang has laid on the bottom of the display tank for over an
hour now, breathing hard.
I turned the lights out to avoid more
stress. What went wrong? Is this fish going to make it?
Its been
eating well with no real signs of trouble other than the white spots
this morning and a little scratching to go with it. I'm really sick
about this.
Great website
Thanks for any input/wisdom you may
have.
Mark
>>>Hello Mark,
Sorry to hear of your troubles.
While I could type quite a long email about the life cycle of C.
irritans, I suggest you do a search on it's life cycle and become
familiar with the different stages - Trophont, tomont, tomite, etc. You
will then see the folly of doing a freshwater dip once cysts are already
present on the fish.
In all likelihood, you Ph shocked the fish,
although not being there I can't rule out temperature factors as well.
Moreover, these fish are very sensitive as it is, one to be avoided to a
large degree in my opinion, and certainly one of the last fish that is
going to suffer a freshwater dip. Some fish on the other hand don't
flinch at a freshwater dip. I even left a Koran angel in a freshwater
tank for 20 minutes one time on accident and it was no worse for wear.
The fish you have in your possession unfortunately does not fall into
this category.
Going forward, use hyposalinity or a commercial
treatment, and forget freshwater dips, especially on very delicate fish
that are already in danger of not making it without this extra trauma.
Cheers
Jim<<< Re: A Pacific Blue that didn't appreciate an FW
dip
Thanks for the reply, unfortunately I murdered an otherwise
healthy fish. I read many of the accounts on the site and then also
talked with a trusted fellow at the LFS. There are many accounts on the
site about FW dipping this species. All indications were that a
Freshwater dip would be the least aggressive course of action.
<Generally yes>
The dip temp. was within a degree or two and not
lower than the tank. The pH of our tap water (municipal well water) is
such that I don't have to raise it, if anything it's on the high side.
<... as high as saltwater... in the low 8's?>
I keep a pretty close
eye on my fish tanks and since a few spots developed literally
overnight, and also knowing that they are susceptible I wanted to try to
get it under control before I had a full blown outbreak in my main tank.
<Mmm, if the fish/es are in a main tank, and "spots" show up... the tank
is infested...>
Admittedly I have not FW dipped anything before, I
prefer the QT.
however, the FAQ's led me to believe I should be
dipping as a prophylactic and when the LFS suggested it as treatment,
<Mmm, much to state/relate here... preventative dips are useful in
receiving, moving livestock... extended baths/dips can be advantageous
in some treatment strategies>
I thought, what could it hurt, I'll
give it a try. I was very apprehensive about doing it and really talked
myself into it. Now I'm sick about it. I'll not be doing it again
anytime soon.
I do at some elementary level understand that the
parasite has a cycle and the way to beat it is to interrupt that cycle
by; speeding it up with increased temp., vacuuming the substrate to try
and catch some of the swimmers, lowering the salinity (hyposalinity).
Etc.....
<All the above are so... but much better to avoid
introduction of such pathogens, their vectors altogether>
Since the
fish was showing absolutely no signs of distress I didn't want to go
into full blown panic mode, rip the tank a part setup the Hospital tank
etc..... I don't remember the last time I got Ich in a FW tank and now 6
months into the SW experience all heck is breaking loose. I've been
diligent with my water changes, 20-25% every 2 weeks. No troubles with
Ammonia, Nitrite since initial cycle. I'm testing every two weeks for
Nitrate before my water changes and its never been a problem. I know
that most diseases are due to environmental problems, but really I don't
know what it would be.
<The "other" components. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm>
Ironically, I have
been using the cheap plastic Hydrometer (I know don't say it) and it
showed the s.g. to be in the 1.023 1.024 range. I just bought a glass
tube laboratory type and it measures the s.g at more like 1.018 to
1.019. I expected the reading to be off a bit, but not that much. It's
odd that my salinity is low and yet I still got what I suspected to be
Ich.
<Mmm, not that odd... spg/density has to be much lower to
exclude most all such problems>
No other fish are showing any
signs. There are only 3 fish in the tank, 2 yellow damsels, a coral
beauty. Should I pull them and treat for Ich or let it ride?
<I
would be treating all in isolation... letting the infested tank go
fallow...>
Again great web site, I guess I still have much more
reading to do.
Mark
<Sorry to realize your troubles
Mark, and appreciative of your efforts at understanding, having success
here. Please do read here as well:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and in turn the
above/linked files where you lead yourself. You will make it past these
"different than freshwater" parasite problems and hopefully be "specific
pathogen free" soon. Bob Fenner> Re: A Pacific Blue that didn't
appreciate an FW dip
Thanks again for responding. I'm learning,
bear with me. FW was much more care-free than this, but the fish are
way cooler...
Yes the pH of our tap water is in the high 8's, I've
tested it periodically over the last 8 years living here and it's always
on the order of 8.6 to 8.8. My Africans loved it.
<I'll bet>
I
don't think I pH or temp shocked the fish. I just think I left it in
too long. (that didn't sound too good)
<Happens>
I'll setup the
Hospital tank and the first sign I see of hiding, scratching, etc I'll
move them over, treat them, and let the main tank go fallow. 30 days
min. right?
<Yes>
So far two days later and no other signs of
ich have surfaced.
<... May not have been ich/crypt>
I did raise
the temp and I'm slowly getting it up over 80. I forgot to mention the
Star I have. It's a small Purple "Linckia" or actually I've learned by
reading, Tamaria stria.
<Yes>
Should I do anything special for
it. From what I've read they are not susceptible, can't transmit it,
and will be ok in the tank during the fallow period. Is this correct?
<Correct>
Thanks again, I'll keep trying.
Mark
<Ah, good. Bob Fenner> Why did my new arrival die? Gobies, QT,
Dipping... 8/11/05
Hello Crew,
<Thomas>
I have a question
about a Yashia Goby that died about 28 hours after it arrived by FedEx
yesterday. It had been sent FedEx Standard Overnight, and had been in
transit approximately 24 hours before it arrived here.
I gave the
fish a very slow acclimation over about 3 hours using a drip
method. Before putting it into the quarantine tank, I prepared a dip of
RO/DI water, dosed with baking soda to a pH of about 8.2 (to match
quarantine tank),
<And shipping water?>
and dosed with 2-3 drops
of Methylene blue in perhaps a quart of this water.
<Sounds good>
When placed in the dip, the fish went ballistic -- darted around, rolled
over on it's back -- a terrible scene. It may have been in that dip for
2 seconds before I removed it to a rinse of water from the quarantine
tank. Then, after a minute or so, I put it into the quarantine
tank. This was last night about 8 PM.
Since then, it basically hid
in the bottom of the tank behind PVC pipe. It appeared to be breathing
hard, when I could briefly see it. Other than that, there were no
obvious symptoms, except a sunken belly, which is very apparent now that
it is dead and I can examine it closely.
Quarantine tank parameters
are
specific gravity: 1.025
pH: 8.1
ammonia: 0
nitrite:
0
nitrate: 20 ppm
temp: 78 deg.
Question is this: Did my dip
kill this fish?
<Likely did add stress... but this, most small
gobies ship poorly... many do die soon after arrival... from point to
point... and if you read through WWM, writings by myself, you will find
I am not a fan of dipping many such fish groups, or even quarantining
them per se>
If not, how should I think about this event. It is
only the second time I've ordered fish by FedEx. The first time, I
ordered tank-raised clown fishes that I acclimated but did not dip --
these fish were fine and are still happy 18 months later.
<Much
hardier... and accustomed to novel, stressful inputs>
Thanks,
Tom
<Bob Fenner>
Freshwater dip for inverts 11/16/05
Hi WWM, I have a few questions regarding freshwater dips for prevention.
A number of people I have asked think using a freshwater dip for
invertebrates is detrimental to their health. What do you think?
<Yikes!!! Not only detrimental, but most likely lethal! Also, the types
of parasites that can be effectively removed by FW dips generally don't
infect inverts.>
Also, I prepared 4 gallons of dip for my first tank
additions (some crabs); how long should I keep it for reuse? Thanks for
any advice! Jason
<If you use an airstone or a powerhead to prevent
the water from stagnating, it should be good for a couple of weeks (just
be sure to double check the pH and temp!). Otherwise, I would discard it
in a few days. Best Regards, AdamC.> Freshwater dipping
Zebrasoma flavescens = bad... RO water, no oxygen, worse by far
3/27/06
PLEASE STOP ADVISING PEOPLE TO FRESHWATER DIP ZEBRASOMA
FLAVESCENS FOR ANY REASON!!
These fish are very delicate
<Mmm,
no... on a relative scale, quite hardy>
and I have now lost 2 to
this process following the instructions on your website which I have
found repeated in several threads to the "T" as I was trying to rid each
one of the couple of black spot Turbellarians that they had.
<... I
have literally done this with hundreds of thousands of this specimens...
Am out in HI on the Big Island where the vast majority of Z. flavescens
are collected, "talked" many of the trop. collectors over the years into
this procedure (pH-adjusted FW dips... with aeration...) to eliminate
Crypt, Amyloodinium, Paravortex... it works, is safe...>
Each time
the fish was placed into a well established QT tank for a week and each
were doing fantastic eating sea veggies like there was no tomorrow. I
was planning on 4 weeks in the QT. After the 6 min.s in the temp and pH
adjusted bath using RO water,
<... RO water has no oxygen....>
the fish was dead. This happened to 2 different fish at different times
from different dealers and both fish were fantastic specimens. The only
reason I dipped is because your website said to do this to rid the fish
of black spot which I did not want to introduce into my main.
<No oxygen>
I also don't want to hear that the fish would have died
anyways because observing each for a week beforehand in the QT tells me
this is absolute rubbish regarding these two specimens. Each died as a
direct result of the bath. Having wasted weeks of my time and effort
and $70 of my money caring for these fish and to have them die in
minutes following instructions on this website LEAVES ME EXTREMELY
ANGRY!!! I have found other post regarding this species from people who
have had the same experience but the dip is still recommended. Being
such water quality bioassays, advising people to dip willy-nilly is
ridiculous and reckless. I should have stuck with my gut and allowed
the fish to rid themselves of the 2 spots each had with quality water
and food but I thought I could trust this site.
<No oxygen... try
holding your breath for six minutes and write me back. Bob Fenner>
Freshwater Dip gone wrong - 04/16/06
Hi Crew,
<Hi
there, Leslie here with you today!>
After much planning and
preparation I finally bought my first 2 fish today (a maroon clown and a
royal Gramma). My quarantine tank was ready and my plan was to first do
a freshwater dip with Methylene Blue before putting them in the
quarantine tank. I am sad to say that I think I’ve killed both fish in
the dipping process.
<Oh my, what a bummer. I am so sorry to hear
that.>
I treated the tap water, adjusted the temperature and added
the Methylene Blue, but when I added the fish to the dip, it took about
30 seconds and both fish were lying on their side without moving. I
immediately removed them and placed them in the quarantine tank.
<Perfect, well done.>
It’s been a couple of hours now and they both
seem a bit better, but I don’t know if they are going to survive.
Wizards 4 th rule – the greatest harm can be done with the best
intentions… I feel like an animal abuser at the moment.
<Awwww I’m
so sorry. You had no way of knowing that they would not tolerate the
dip. I can certainly empathize.>
Afterwards I realized that in all
the excitement I never checked the pH of the freshwater before dipping
them. I’ve done a lot of reading on your site and “pH-shock” is the best
explanation I could find.
<I think you are right on. pH shock often
manifests with that side laying posture.>
I don’t know how quickly
pH-shock can kill a fish, but something went very wrong very quickly.
< I have seen fish respond as yours and go on to do very well. If they
were in good health to begin with they may just need some time to re
adjust. They are both hearty species.>
Unless it was something
totally different, like a lack of oxygen or something.
<I don’t
think so. pH shock sounds like the most likely culprit.>
Any ideas?
< No additional ideas.>
This was my first attempt at a freshwater
dip, so just one question – is buffering a freshwater dip simply a
matter of adding some “baking soda” until the pH is at an acceptable
level?
<Yup>
Other than that, (if I for example use RO water),
it is simply a case of getting it to the correct temperature and adding
the Methylene Blue, right?
<Nope. The pH of RO water has to be
adjusted as well.>
Can’t believe I messed this up. Chris
<Please
do not be to hard on yourself. You are not the first and will not be the
last person who has forgotten to adjust the pH of a FW dip. We have all
made our fair share of mistakes. We are human and as such not perfect.
Mistakes happen and we hopefully learn from them. Best of luck with your
new fish, Leslie>
Freshwater Dip gone wrong, continued
- 04/16/06
Hi Leslie,
<Hi there again!>
Thanks a lot for
the reply. I feel better now.
<You’re welcome. Glad I could help.>
I failed miserably on my first attempt at a marine tank a couple of
years ago and although I have done tons more planning and research on
this new attempt I still can’t help feeling a bit paranoid. Promised
myself I will never put anything in my tank without proper quarantine
and research on the animal.. and there I go buying a Maroon clown on
impulse today without knowing anything about it. I hope it wasn't a bad
choice (if I haven’t killed it already).
<There you go beating
yourself up again. I had to cut my LFS time down to the bare minimum and
for absolute necessity only. I only go in with blinders on now because
the temptation is just to great. In my case rescuing seahorses was my
great downfall. No worries the Maroon Clown is a fine choice.>
I
started seeing some brown patches on my live rock in the main tank and
worried a bit about a diatom outbreak, but when I looked more closely I
noticed that the brown stuff already seems to be giving way to all sorts
of green and red stuff, so hopefully that's a good sign for this new
setup of mine.
That's enough rambling from me for one day. Enjoy the
rest of your Easter and thanks for the kind words. Chris.
<Enjoy the
rest of your Easter as well and you're very welcome, Leslie>
Treating Marine parasites
Anthony, thanks for your thoughts; I
agree that FW and Formalin dips can be very effective; what I meant to
say was that by "wasting" that first week relying on Kick-Ich, the fish
are so weakened that they are past the point of no return.
<ahh... my
fault. I misunderstood... but do agree that a lost week can be fatal>
At least, this is what appears to be the case; I had 4 instances where
the fish looked ok, tolerated the dip, but expired a day later;
<yes... and it brings up a good point. FW dips are no more sever (less
actually) than a long-term medicated bath. A properly conducted FW dip
is a safe and effective measure and aquarists can rest assured that any
fish that does not survive a single 5 minute FW dip was not likely to
survive anyway>
others (same species, same tank) pulled and dipped
the first day symptoms noted, recovered. I like the FW dips, have little
experience with Formalin, but FW still makes me nervous sometimes.
<understood... its natural to be nervous about the FW. Little worries
with Formalin though. Even small scaled species tolerate Formalin
(unlike Copper, Malachite, Methylene blue, etc)>
Are there species
less tolerant, with respect to both? Steve.
<there are a handful of
relatively uncommon fishes sensitive to FW. A few popular ones too. Be
careful with very small and small scaled fishes like blennies, gobies,
Chromis, Firefish... as well as high hats/drumfish/croakers, many
wrasses and Tuskfish (jumpers). Most of the common and hardy species
benefit by FW dips though (tangs, damsels and clowns, triggers,
groupers, most angels, etc). Best regards, Anthony> Re:
Lemonpeel angel
Hello, this is Jodie,
<Hi Jodie, Don here
today>
I noticed my lemon peel angel had a minute amount of ick, so I
gave him a freshwater bath and some parasites popped off of him. I only
had him in the bath for maybe 2 min.s. at the most, so I placed him
back in the tank and he went straight to the bottom and breathed hard
for about 30 min and then died. would he have stressed out soo bad that
he died???
<So sorry to hear. Did you temperature and pH adjust the
dip to match the tank? Did you aerate the water well, before/during the
dip? If so, then the fish was likely under extreme duress from the
parasite. Don> Deadly Dip?
Crew:
<Scott F. your crew
member tonight!>
I want to both share a story and ask a question : I
purchased a previously owned Coral Beauty that was living at the LFS for
just 3 hours since the owner repatriated him (her) back to the store
after 3 months (tank tear-down.) I watched this fish for quite a while
and it appeared very, very healthy, with a strikingly gorgeous blue tone
and an insatiable appetitive for brine shrimp.
I did a gradual (45
minute) acclimation procedure mixing the LFS water with small amounts of
the destination tank water, vigorously aerating its acclimation bucket,
and this guy seemed happy and raring to go the whole time. Then I added
Kordon's Methylene Blue, upping the recommended dosage from the bottle's
instructions by about two-fold (hearing that it is hard to overdose
almost anything on M.B.). I kept her in there about 15 minutes, then
transferred her to a pH & temp adjusted fresh water bath (de-chlorinated
& pHed with Amquel & Proper pH 8.2.) This lovely creature immediately
sunk on its side and never regained
any of its vibrancy from that
point forward. After about 5 minutes of the fresh water, I transferred
its seemingly shocked body to the destination tank, where it floated to
the bottom and made a few feeble attempts at gill-breathing before it
convulsed into a rigor mortis - like "C" curve, taking its unbearable
beauty and energy to the grave with it, a scant 1 hour after leaving the
LFS.
What did I do wrong? Somewhat shamed, SLC
<First of all, SLC-
don't blame yourself. It really seems like you did everything right
here. The freshwater/Methylene blue technique is successfully used by
hobbyists and aquariums around the world, and I have used this technique
myself without incident for years. Remember, however, that the purpose
of this dip is to induce a certain degree of osmotic shock to potential
parasites that might be on the fish's skin. Although this procedure is
generally fatal to parasites, which cannot handle the osmotic "stretch"
like the fishes can, you will occasionally run into a fish that cannot
do well, either. The fish in question was in several different
environments in the hours leading up to your tragedy. Perhaps the fish,
despite its apparently unaffected behavior, was already stressed
seriously...The dip may have "pushed it over the edge". Just a
possibility. The bottom line is- you did it right...Don't let this
discourage you in the future. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>
Epilogue: Deadly Dip
Thanks Crew (Scott F.) for your words of
encouragement. I will not get frustrated at this setback, albeit I was
hoping that I did *something* wrong to cause this tragedy. It's much
easier to change what I did than to accept that underwater critters
simply die sometimes, in a mysterious and unpredictable ways. What's
most saddening is not the loss of $30, but of a fellow living creature
-in my charge - from this miniscule and fragile water-logged space rock
we call Earth! Again Thanks, SLC
<Your attitude is sooo good! Your
compassion and love for these animals will bring you continued success
for many years to come! Chin up! Regards, Scott F> Dip
Hello Bob!
How long should a typical dip/bath be for a newly acquired
fish or an attempt to slough off ich for small fishes, such as a
clownfish or a young Naso? Or should it be based on fishes behaviour
while undergoing?
<Yes. Please read:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm>
I introduced a false
Percula into my system after a 1 minute or so dip and the little trooper
is exhibiting signs of ich.
<Too short a dip time>
The stages
seem rather advanced considering I purchased him on Saturday so I assume
I received one that was stressed/infested from the store. The next day a
Lysmata Shrimp was alsopurchased to help curb the infestation in the
fish's favor and am now raising temp and lowering SPG to also favor
host. A territorial damselfish chases the little Perc around so I have
isolated the Percula in a large, clear, plastic cylinder with holes and
an airstone within the main system to stop the damsel from further
stressing the false Perc. Hindsight is 20/20
<I'm quoting you!>
with a quarantine tank; luckily I only have hearty damsels, LR, and some
inverts, in the tank other than the Percula so I think I can beat this
little outbreak.
<I'm rootin' for you>
I'll let you know how it
turns out have read most of your articles/FAQ regarding ich/parasites so
I feel equipped). Thanks.
MLS
Michael L. Stewart
<Be chatting.
Bob Fenner> Freshwater dip effectiveness
Dear Bob,
Since I have rapidly spreading bubble algae in my tank, I had been
trying to decide on whether to go with a Mithrax crab or a Red Sea
Sailfin Tang.
<Perhaps both>
My LFS had the most beautiful 5 inch
Red Sea Sailfin tang, and because I've heard that some Mithrax crabs
don't actually eat the stuff anyway, I decided to spend the extra $ and
go with the Sailfin tang. He had been in their tank for a couple of
months, and I visited him often. He was eating well and looked good in
the store.
<Ok>
However, I apparently have much better lighting
than the LFS, because as I was floating the bag in my tank, I noticed a
couple dozen ich spots which were not noticeable in the store!!
<Perhaps became more noticeable during transit/stress>
I continued
acclimating him, but immediately mixed up a batch of Methylene blue dip
for him. The dip was pretty blue, so I could not see exactly how he was
doing in it. But when he appeared to stop thrashing and just lie on his
side after about 30 seconds, I took him out, gave a quick dip in another
bucket of clear water, and put him into the tank. He was scared at first
and breathing heavily, but later came around and began dutifully picking
at all of the bubble algae. (YES! This guy is awesome!!)
<Good>
But I am now worried whether everything will be ok, because even after
the dip I still see white spots on him. Should these come off in the
dip, or do they just stay on and die?
<The spots aren't actually
"living", but marks of/from the fish>
I would really hate to have to
quarantine him and stress him out any further. I have a cleaner shrimp
who appeared to be beckoning him, but I haven't seen him actually
perform any cleaning yet.
Your expert advice is greatly appreciated!
Thank you,
Laura
<Just wait for now... likely all will be fine.
Bob Fenner> Freshwater Dips - Problems
Bob,
Need your
help diagnosing what I am doing wrong with my freshwater dip protocol
for new fish. In the past, I was using a 'pH right 8.2' type product to
adjust the pH but had problems - the fish went nuts (airborne, erratic
movements for first 15-30 sec.s, with the fish then falling to the
bottom in a motionless state - at which point I would take them out). I
started using a pH pen (instead of litmus paper tests)
<"litmus"
means "garbage" in certain native Indian tongues...hehe>
to check the
ph and found that I was overshooting the ph with the 8.2 product (I was
getting a ph of 9 - 10, which I suspect caused the problem).
<Doh!!!!
That will do it, yes>
Anyway, now I use baking soda and a pH pen and
seem to have success with freshwater dips, but have problems AFTER the
dip. Here's my protocol:
1) Set up quarantine tank (has water from
main display tank) temp-77F, PH-8.0-8.2, Alk 9.8,
<OK... although a
bit low for future reference on pH and ALK (target 12dKH and 8.3 night
to 8.6 day)>
2) set up freshwater dip:
temp 77F, PH 8.0, airstone
in 1 gal dip tank runs for 2 hours to oxygenate and continues to run in
corner of dip while fish are treated.
<excellent>
I use
Methyl-blue (a 5% mix. I add several drops to the 1 gal dip container
until the solution is deep blue).
<fine for most fishes, but do be
careful with scale-less and sensitive species... organic dyes are very
toxic to some>
3) When I get the fish, I do the following before
dipping:
A) - float bag in container of salt water (not same
container as dip or q-tank) for 15 min.s to adjust temp to 77F.
<very
wise... outside of bag may have contaminants from where it has sat>
B) open bag and pour contents into a hard plastic container.
C) I add
salt water (ph=8.0-8.2, alk=9.8, temp=77F) to the plastic container with
shipping water gradually, over 30 min.s, until I've tripled the original
shipping volume (this is an attempt to slowly adjust the shipping
water's PH to 2/3 of the way to PH of 8.0.
<excellent... and you can
shorten this for nervous fishes toward 15 minutes>
4) I begin the
dip:
I use a small plastic container to scoop the fish out of the
container in step#3 instead of a net (minimize stress)
<agreed>
and attempt to drain most of the water from container used to scoop the
fish before adding the fish to the dip mix. The fish seem to tolerate
the dip well -
<as they should... very good protocol thus far>
they may exhibit some rapid movement initially, but continue to swim
around throughout the dip - no jumping.
<agreed...even lethargy is
acceptable and common (lying down even on their side "resting" is normal
and OK for most>
I run the dip for up to 20 min.s (to eliminate
Brooklynella, which I've heard requires a 15 min dip).
<to many
peoples surprise I agree with you... Dips less than 3 minutes are a
waste of time. Most all fish need a minimum of 5 minutes. I run 5 to 10
minutes. Although going to 15 or even 20 requires close observation and
is not recommended with more than a few species (high hats, jacknives,
some wrasses, etc)>
5) I move the fish from the dip to the quarantine
tank. Here's where the problem begins: The fish sink to bottom, with
rapid gill movement, but lethargic fish activity. I had a cinnamon clown
that died 1 day later (never recovered from the lethargy) and it had
several pinhead sized sores on its body (looked like the flesh had
'popped' under the scales). There were NO sores on the fins. Another
angel (keyhole), died within 1 hour of being placed in the q-tank (no
visible sores, but it had rapid gill movement/lethargy).
<for
starters, Brooklynella is seasonal and uncommon (commonly seen in clowns
and Hawaiian species). I think your dip may be longer than needed for
most if you do not suspect a virulent pathogen. 5-7 minutes is fine for
most pathogens>
What am I doing wrong in step 5? I suspect the fish
might become acclimated to the Methyl-blue in the dip, and then suffer
oxy starvation when they go to the saltwater q-tank (no Methyl-b).
<the angel is very sensitive to the organic dye. No dyes or copper for
dwarf angels, scaleless fish and more>
Or, I might have too rapidly
moved then from freshwater to saltwater and caused a reverse shock
(fluid rapid goes out of their body - explaining the pinhead sores in
step 5, and possibly damaging gills).
<a brackish acclimation might
be nice but is not routine or necessary for most... I think this has
mostly to do with the excessive dip time... rarely need that long.
Although I'm very glad to see an aquarists with faith who is not shy
about dips. Most aquarists fret and dip too short and ineffectively then
blame the FW dip for not working>
A few other questions:
A) should
I slowly drop the salinity in the freshwater dip (i.e., take them from
1.023 to 1.0 over a two hour period, to reduce stress.
<more harm
than good due to temp issues and extended stress of confinement>
Would this reduce the effectiveness of the dip on parasites)?
<definitely IMO>
B) should I slowly raise the salinity from 1.0 to
1.023 (i.e., over an hour or two) when moving the fish from the FW-dip
to the q-tank?
<10 minutes if at all>
C) should I slowly dilute
the level of methyl-b (i.e. over an hour or two) when moving the fish
from the FW-dip to the QTank - or eliminate it from by FW dip steps?
<research the appropriateness of M blue by species>
Could the fish
become 'acclimated' to the high oxygen environment in the FW caused by
the methyl-B, and then be suffocating when I move them to the saltwater
<not in such a short period of time>
Lastly, are FW dips supposed to
be this difficult?
<not at all... short and sweet and very
effective. You have almost got it right>
What should I expect the
survival rate (up to 5 days after the dip) to be for fish that go thru
it - I was expecting it to be in the high 90%.
<agreed. It is more
successful and less stress than a drawn out and noxious chemo treatment
with medications (as with 21 day copper)>
Thanks!
<best regards,
Anthony> | |
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