Definitive dip/bath for varieties of fish 10/10/05
Salutations,
<And you>
I am in the process of stocking my 60 liter tank (in actuality, it's closer to 47 liters or 13 gallons) and was wondering what fish do better with dips as opposed to baths. Every fish will spend a luxurious 3-4 weeks in QT before arriving to their final destination, but which fish would get a dip and which would take a bath? Is there a list on the web (or maybe here that I carelessly skipped) that says which fish gets what and for how long?
<Mmm, not as far as I'm aware>
For example, would you give a bi-color Dottyback a freshwater bath with Methylene blue? What would be the minimum time?
<A few minutes>
(sources say anything less than 3 minutes is worthless). I understand if they are thrashing about, get them out...but what if they lay down? Thanks again for the wonderful resource!
Dana
<Smaller fishes, less time, scale-less fishes, less time, fishes that live in close association with invertebrates, less time. There are some notes under the heading "acclimation" by group, per articles by me on WWM, but the real "bottom line" here is watching your livestock while they are dipped/bathed, and hoisting them out if/when they appear overly distressed. Bob Fenner> 

New fish manager, questions re: freshwater dip    4/4/06
Hello. I wanted to thank you guys on a great job, as I visit your site at least once or twice a day.
<More than me!>
I've recently come to manage the fish department in a full-line pet store, and had some questions. The last guy didn't think much of skimmers and most other forms of filtration, and I can't exactly go crazy with upgrading everything just yet,
<Take your time... plan... purchase, install incrementally...>
but so far I have managed to hook up a skimmer to our largest of 3 saltwater systems.
<Shocking eh?>
I've also taken to dripping the fish over the course of about 3-4 hours (in contrast to the previous float and drop technique used by the last manager). I have also begun using a freshwater methylene blue dip. Works absolute wonders (and thanks to you guys here at WWM for that one too!)
<Is of tremendous use>
This is my first question. I get in marine fish on average 3 times a week. And it really does become a hassle to make up dip water that often. How effective would it be to set up, say, a twenty gallon long aquarium with a small pump, heater, and a good mechanical aerator,
and using net breeders to dip several fish at once, leaving this tank setup for extended periods of time?
<Best to re-make each shipment... Though a stock solution of dip itself can be made, stored>
I can't really seem to find anything on permanent dip tanks. Perhaps because it's generally not a good idea for some reason?
<Loss of concentration, possibility of pest, pathogen transfer>
I now travel to our wholesaler to hand pick our fish, both fresh and marine, which vastly helps in attaining the best, healthy fish. But, as always, either I miss something on one of them, or one or two develop something after a couple days after transit. So, I've also set up one quarantine tank, with another to follow shortly.
<Wowzah! A big step...>
But for some reason, the nitrites WILL NOT go down, no matter what I do. Right now, I'm running Paraguard, but am thinking of switching to methylene blue. Is the medication stalling the biological filtration in the filter,
<Correct>
or am I perhaps not being patient enough. Nitrites have been off the scale for about a week now, and the tank has been set up around a month. Any suggestions other than patience?
<Frequent water changes, use of established, clean bio-media...>
I'd like to have this tank
running as soon as possible. Thanks again, and hopefully I won't have too many other questions!.
<Bring them on. No worries... been there, done that. Bob Fenner>

I thought a Quarantine was a place to dig up rocks! Dip procedures as well    5/3/07
Dear WWM Crew:
<Darrel>
Somewhere in this mess are a few questions -- I hope it's easier to read than it was to write.
<Okay>
Ahem.  Once I manage to get a fish to my display tank, it lives in a 0/0/0 (Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate) world with 10% water changed every week, lots of varied food to eat and few worries (not sure what a fish WOULD worry about, but there are no sharks, eels, groupers to eat them and no taxes to pay).  There is one little Hawkfish that nipped my clownfish but he will be dealt with -- maybe a stern talking to or possibly a notation on his permanent record that will follow him for the rest of his life.
But getting TO my main tank is a tougher road than I'd have expected.
At the beginning, the wise, knowledgeable, caring experts at BOTH my LFS advised a 4 day 'waiting period' before placing their fish in my main tank.
<At least this is some interval...>
Since they know best and have years of experience, I followed their recommendations to the letter.    As you all would expect, after most of  the fish in the main tank died of Ick, a REAL quarantine program was instituted starting with a bare 10 gallon tank/hood/heater and HOB Whisper filter.
<Mas mejor... Much better>
Never wanting to see or hear about Ick ever again, this tank was treated with Copper Power (chelated copper) as per manufacturer's instructions.  But good luck getting a Nitrogen Cycle started in a copper treated tank.
<Or sustain such...>
  Maybe some people can but I never could.
<Me neither>
  This meant 3-4 10% water changes every week, which means re-dosing the copper --
<Yes>
and with the test kits available to the hobby trade it's like playing Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol.   I've tried all the major brands and their test kits and in my actual surveys 8 out of 10 people can't read the difference between the three shades on their respective color charts that differentiate between  TOO LOW--JUST RIGHT--LETHAL.
<Agreed... but there are better, useful kits...>
I lost enough fish to copper toxicity that I've decided to swear off Copper until I can obtain research grade tools. (working on that one already!)
<See Hach, LaMotte... they have reasonable-cost assays...>
MEANWHILE ....
I’m committed to an eight minute Freshwater dip upon initial acquisition -- with my only reservation being that all the emphasis on SLOW ACCLIMATION is tossed out the window with this method, isn’t it?
<Mmm, no>
Also, no buts about it … 30 DAYS from the last sign of ANYTHING before they see my main tank.   The thirty days of boredom rule will also be absolute.
<Javul!>
Which leaves me with two choices:
1) A ‘normal’ water setup for that 30 days with nothing but observation (other than the dip)
2) Hyposalinity for 30 days in a proactive effort to stave off parasites.
If I’m thinking correctly (and no that doesn’t happen as often as I’d like) – unlike with copper or any medications,  either of these options would allow a filter with activated carbon, Bio-Chem-Zorb or Chemipure or Purigen or anything I need to keep the water pristine, wouldn’t they?
<Could>
A) Would you recommend a hyposalinity quarantine for us newbies or just regular saltwater?
<For most species of fishes, all invertebrates, algae... regular>
B) Is there a pretty accurate list of fishes that can’t tolerate 1.010 ?
<Have never encountered such>
C) While we’re at it, a list of fishes that can’t tolerate a FW dip or maybe a duration/time table for various fishes?
Regards as always,
Darrel
<Mmm, much more than this to it... A need to as smartly apply your observation, judgment re the apparent state of health of said incoming fishes... and to bear close watch on their progress during the (aerated) dip/bath procedure... to remove to the system with full spg if/when too much stress is obvious... if so. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Dips
Hello,
I have been told that eels and dragonets do not tolerate freshwater dips. Is this true? Also are there any other types of fish that will not tolerate freshwater dips? Thanks, Richard
<Richard, I recommend shorter freshwater dips for any species that lives in close association with invertebrates. This would include clownfish, mandarin and eels. However, I do not recommend eliminating them altogether. Avoid copper compounds, dye and organophosphate-containing remedies as these are deadly to eels. Mandarins generally do not handle these chemicals well either.
Of further note, both of these species do require frequent water changes and are generally not good tank mates. Mandarins should generally be kept only with very peaceful tank mates for a variety of reasons. -Dave Schmottlach>

FW dip
Hi there guys! Hope you all are well! 
<and you as well good buddy>
Today was the day I returned the fish to the main tank from quarantine. They were there for crypt. and the yellow tang had some black spots as well. Before re-introducing to the main tank, I Fw dipped the yellow tang. He is not doing well at this point, and I am very worried that he isn't going to make it. Let me tell you what transpired this morning & see if you can shed some light here.
I acclimated them from the qt tank to the "home" tank by adding "home tank" water every 15 minutes for an hour. 
<an hour is a long time for acclimation... was this vessel heated and aerated? If not there was certainly a drop in temperature... and to a lesser extent dissolved oxygen>
Then I adjusted temp & pH in fresh water to match that of the water I had just acclimated them in. 
<remember to aerate here too :) Especially if hot water from the tap is used... very low dissolved oxygen in the water from your hot water tank>
Here comes the fiasco part... Netting a yellow tang is a terrible thing to do, & although I'm not sure what other methods I can do to get this guy out (if he makes it), I hope I can find something other than netting to do it. All those great spiky things he has get horribly caught up in the net. 
<ahhh...yes. No green nets here for spined species. White nylon nets for this (all really). We all learn this one the hard way alas>
OK so anyway, back to the FW dip... I scoop him out of the acclimation area and put him over into the Fw area. He is, of course, caught in the net. So I spend most of the time trying to get him untangled from this net, while he's in the Fw. We get that done, & he just seems more stressed than he ought to, so I take him out. Now, although I can't be certain because I was more intent on getting him free from the net than I was on watching the clock, I am CERTAIN that he was in that dip no longer than 5 minutes, and probably only 3. (I understand that 3 minutes isn't really long enough & I'm sorry.) 
<no problem... three minutes is a minimum but helpful>
So now that he's back in the main tank, he's sort of dog paddling & gilling very rapidly. The cleaner shrimp I've added while the other fish were in QT are THRILLED to see a fish. They're very gung-ho about cleaning and run over to him anytime he gets near the bottom so he keeps trying to stay up, but he's having a really hard time with it. Based on what I've read about FW dips, they should NOT be this traumatic on the fish. 
<correct>
Aside from not leaving him in long enough, which is not going to help the black spot I know, what else have I done wrong? 
<my guess is that the rough netting/entrapment caused most of the duress>
Is there a possibility that he'll make it? 
<yes... they are quite hardy... but keep the lights off and remove the shrimp if necessary.. they may be causing far more stress at this point>
I am just sick to think that I saved him from ich only to kill him upon returning him to his home. Please advise. Thanks! TJ
<wishing you the best of luck. Anthony>

Re: Fw dip
Anthony,
Thank you sooo much for your encouragement! You guys are all so great! I cannot thank you enough for all your help!!! 
<it is our great pleasure, my friend>
Will be tossing that green net monster TONIGHT! & running to the store in the morning to get white nylon!
<yes... you'll find that most aquarists after a some time in the hobby will only use nylon nets. The green nets are "faster" in the water... but much more harsh. Its rather easy to untangle spines from nylon instead>
Thank you for that info. I do have an update on the tang. He seems much improved tonight with breathing back to normal (almost) & he ate a bit of food a little while ago. 
<very good to hear!>
Lights have remained off all day but will come on as normal on the timer tomorrow a.m. 
<a good plan>
The shrimp seem to have settled down a little bit (actually they seem rather heartbroken that he won't let them clean him). Hopefully he'll come around in a day or two when he starts to feel better.
<fair enough>
Will keep that in mind about acclimation. There was about a 2 degree temp drop. 
<not bad at all... but no more than 2F recommended. 4F plus incites "ich">
I really screwed stuff up right & left today.
One question & I'll leave you. The tang has a split (torn) back fin thanks to my great netting technique. Is it OK to put Stress Coat in the tank with the shrimp in there? 
<sure... but doubtful it will help much. Vitamins in the food will heal faster>
I'm sure his fins will heal rapidly on their own, but if this would help & be OK with the inverts then I figured I'd toss it in.
<no harm if it pleases you. Will help the skimmer work better too... watch carefully for overflow>
Thank you so much again for all your help/kind words!!!
TJ
<with kind regards, Anthony>

Going For A Dip...
I don't mean to sound dense but isn't there going to be a temp, pH and salinity shock somewhere?  Either between the parameters of the LFS store water and the FW dip, or the FW dip and the QT?  There is  going to be a difference between the two right? Or am I over thinking this whole matter?  So is it best to dilute the LFS water with the QT water to get the fish acclimated first before dipping?
<Your questions are certainly not "dense"! Here's the run-down: Yes, there will be a certain degree of osmotic shock as a result of freshwater dipping the fish. The temperature and pH of the freshwater should be similar to the saltwater. However, the rationale behind freshwater dipping is that parasites and other undesirable organisms cannot make the osmotic "stretch", as fishes can. The fish is netted out of the bag, then placed in the dipping bucket. After the dip, the fish is simply released into the qt. Stressful...yes, to a certain extent. But I can honestly say that I have been using this dip technique for years (as have thousands of other hobbyists), and I have never lost a fish during (or after) this process. Just be careful, and your fishes should do okay>
Also is a 20 gallon tank acceptable for a 5-6" angelfish?
<For quarantine, may be a bit cramped, but could work with adequate filtration. A 40 would be better...(but of course, more expensive!). This size tank is, of course, completely unacceptable for long-term housing of this sized fish, as I'm sure you've surmised>
Greatly appreciate your first response, and thanks for having a place to ask questions. Steve
<That's why we are here, Steve! We all learn together! Feel free to contact us any time! Regards, Scott F>

Taking A Dip Without Going Overboard (FW Dip Duration)
Hey Crew, sorry to bug you again, but I have a question regarding FW dips. I was reading some threads on Reef Central and came across one with a kid whose Percula Clown had some type of parasite.  One of the responders to the thread said multiple times to do a FW bath for 15 minutes to an hour with Formalin.  That seems awfully long to me.
<I've never heard anyone dip a marine fish for an hour! WOW! Yep- that will definitely finish off the parasites, not to mention the fish!>
I was under the impression that baths were saltwater with the meds in it.
<Well there are times when you simply will keep the fish immersed in saltwater with the selected medication. However, for the majority of times, such as acclimation of new fishes prior to quarantine, a 5-10 minute freshwater dip is appropriate. Optionally, you can add Methylene blue to the freshwater..>
Can marine fishes live that long in FW?
<I could not imagine anything good coming from a one hour full-strength freshwater dip for a marine fish!>
Am I missing something?  If I'm totally wrong, please let me know.
<Nope, you are more-or-less on track... Check out this link: http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

QUARANTINE
Love your book, the articles you have written and especially the Q&A feature at FFExpress and thanks for your earlier answer re your preferred approach to quarantine fish. Could you please clarify some specifics? The new fish arrives and you float the bag in the fresh water/ methyl blue dip solution to equalize temperatures. Should the dip solution be at the approximately 82 degrees temperature that you will maintain for the quarantine period (assuming a low SG, high temp approach to fish quarantine), or should the dip solution be at a "near bag temperature" (most likely to be in the mid 70s)?
Once the dip process is complete do you put the fish directly into the high temp, low salinity environment or into a normal environment and then gradually work your way to a high temp / low salinity environment with small adjustments? Maybe I'm sweating the details too much, but since you've convinced me of the merits of quarantining fish, I'd like to be sure I'm maximizing the potential for fish survival.
>>
The dip solution should be near the ambient/bag temperature, then to the quarantine conditions (intermediate... to the main system)... somewhere "in-between"...
Bob Fenner... who agrees with your apparent philosophy

Dip/Quarantine
I'm a bit confused regarding how to go about dipping and quarantining fish. I would like to dip my fish in freshwater for about 2-10 minutes and then move them to a quarantine tank for about two weeks. At times you have recommended Methylene blue (sorry I don't know the spelling). If I use the Methylene blue do I net the fish out and put it directly into the quarantine tank or do I give it another dip in saltwater comparable to my primary and quarantine tank? 
<No extra dip necessary... nor the Methylene blue if the livestock is not overly stressed>
Do I do the same for inverts such as cleaner shrimp,
snails, LR, hermit crabs?
<Wouldn't necessarily dip these as a "end user" (different situation for intermediaries in the chain of supply... and for other species/groups of invertebrates)... acclimate them and place these species directly... pieces on acclimation procedures posted at www.wetwebmedia.com>
Thanks for your help. 
>>
<You're welcome. Bob Fenner>

Dip/Quarantine question
Bob,
Thanks for your help. I do seem to be having prob.s with dipping fish (corals always go just fine) and I think I'm doing something wrong. Basically, I use methyl-blue fresh dip, and try to minimize shock to the fish as much as possible (ph is ~8.2, temp matches bag water temp, dim lights, etc), but I've never been able to dip a fish for more than 2 min.s (actually, I usually end the dip in slightly less than 60 seconds) because they all exhibit the same behavior - sink to the bottom and have difficultly maintaining their balance they seem to lean to one side or fall over. Do you have any ideas of what would cause this? Thanks!
<Actually, there might be a lack of aeration to blame here (best to add an airstone...), but the behavior you mention is to be expected, and tolerated... Yes, stressful to the fishes, but less than dying from infectious, parasitic diseases... Bob Fenner>

Lemonpeel Angel and dipping
Hello Guys,
<Salute, goombah! Anthony Calfo in your service>
Just one question on giving a Lemonpeel Angel a Methylene Blue/Fresh Water dip. Is it safe to give a Lemonpeel a 5 to 10 minute dip? Read the FAQ's and your page on Centropyge but didn't find my answer. I am planning to purchase this fish and just not sure if I should dip the Lemonpeel. Thanks very much!
<a properly conducted freshwater dip of at least five minutes (aerated, buffered, temperature adjusted, etc) is fine for the angel... towards ten minutes with discretion. The problem is the Methylene blue. Centropyge angels are sensitive to metals (like copper) and organic dyes (like Methylene blue). Do consider Formalin instead for the medicated bath and follow mfg dose. Freshwater alone is fine too if you believe the fish to be in good health for starters before going into quarantine (you are putting him in quarantine right?!?) Kindly, Anthony>
Ron

Re: Lemonpeel Angel
Anthony, you are a good Dude. 
<yes. thank you... when I'm not being a strict marine Nazi (remember the soup Nazi episode on Seinfeld?), hehe...>
Definitely going into the Q-tank.
Thanks Again, Ron
<excellent! Best of luck to you, Anthony>

Ich
Its me again I know I am being a real pain but I am very attached to my fish. I performed my first ever fresh water dip first I dipped the powder blue for 2 minutes and that went good then I dipped my Sweetlips about a minute 20 seconds into it he went belly up and I panicked and quickly removed him from the fresh water dip and back into the QT tank is that normal.
<it has been demonstrated that FW dips less than 3 minutes are nearly ineffective for most targeted pathogens. And a good rule is that a fish that cannot make it through a properly conducted five minute dip is not likely to survive any other treatment either (numbered days). SW fish are not necessarily going to act normal in FW... they are stressed indeed. Some will swim casually and even eat food if offered (not recommended ever!). Most act sluggish and a bit stunned and may even lay down on the bottom of the dip bucket (quite normal and OK). Severe reactions are generally attempts to leap out of the water or spit streams of water up out of the bucket... this is a case for removal. If your Sweetlips simply sunk like a rock... sounds normal to me. Pulling both fish under three minutes honestly did more harm than good. I wish we could go into very specific detail for everybody, but time just doesn't allow it on subjects like this that have been written at great length here on WWM (articles, FAQ's and or Forum) and elsewhere on the net... not to mention many books too. We do appreciate you caring enough about your fish to ask questions and especially of us. At this point, you really need to do the research, my friend, and make an informed decision based on an intelligent consensus and commit to it. I personally dip for 5 minutes minimum. Some large scaled and hardy fishes can actually take quite a bit more. Best regards>

Questions on dips
Bob/Crew,
I have a few questions for you on dips for new livestock:
1) How long should one dip (freshwater, ph & temp adjusted) the following fish before putting them into quarantine: Banggai Cardinals, Firefish gobies, Mandarin Dragonet, dwarf angels, tangs? Is 10 minutes too long if they aren't showing signs of stress? If not, could I risk a 15 min dip? (I'd really like to stretch it out past 15 min.s if this isn't too risky to eliminate as many parasites as possible).
<10-15 minutes with aeration of the dip/bath material for these species should be fine. The real "bottom line" for any given specimen is actual observation on your part... you will be able to tell if the animal is overly stressed>
2) I've read a book on marine fish medications/disease where they recommend giving fish a 5-10 freshwater dip daily, for 2-5 days. Is this a good thing to do - better than a single dip? 
<Most circumstances, specimens, fewer, longer dips for whatever reasons are best... it is more stressful and damaging to keep netting, manipulating livestock>
If so, would you return them to a new quarantine tank after each dip (rather than returning them to the q-tank that they came from for fear of reinfection)?
<Depends on the reason for dipping. In practical terms, they generally must be placed to the "just removed from" quarantine set-up... For folks with more than one such rig, a freshly made-up setting can be used, with the old one dumped, bleached between uses.>
3) Which of the above are not tolerant of Methylene blue? 
<All>
On a prior email, you indicated that dwarf angels can't tolerate methyl blue and suggested that I research other species for methyl blue tolerance. 
<Mmm, not me>
Where can I find a systematic list of recommended freshwater dip durations per species, and info regarding medication toxicity on a per species basis?
<Cursory reading of Nelson Herwig, Fish Diseases... Edward Noga's work is worthwhile as well...>
I've search several websites and have not found anything (or found conflicting statements). I haven't had much luck with finding good definitive/detailed info in published books either. I've even gone to the websites of medication manufacturers w/o much luck.
<The names mentioned above are not easily found... perhaps a college library, book finding service, or large public aquarium with a book buyer...>
Thanks. Sorry for questions who's answers are probably obvious to most, but these details drive me nuts and your website answers seem to be the most trustworthy.
<Thank you... The Net will become something more, better with time... Bob Fenner>

Re: Questions on dips
Bob,
Thanks for the reply - you are unbelievably responsive! However, now that I'm clear on the fact that methyl-blue is fairly benign, I have another question.
I have been having problems with freshwater dips - the fish do VERY well during the dip, but the problem is AFTER the dip when I return them to the salt water quarantine tank (I've been using methyl-blue with the FW dip).
When I return the fish to the SW q-tank, they show signs of oxygen-starvation (panting - sink to bottom, fall to side, etc). I've also had some fish appear to show small lesions on their body within a day of the dip - about the size of a pinhead - as if the flesh beneath the scale had 'popped'. The FW I use is RO/DI water, and the SW comes from my existing reef tanks. I've documented my receiving protocol below - could you take a look at give me suggestions on why I'm having prob.s with step#5?
Thanks!
PROTOCOL:
I use baking soda and a ph pen and seem to have success with freshwater dips, but have problems AFTER the dip. Here's my protocol:
1) Set up quarantine tank (has water from main display tank):
temp-77F, PH-8.0-8.2, Alk 9.8,
2) set up freshwater dip:
temp 77F, PH 8.0, airstone in 1 gal dip tank runs for 2 hours to oxygenate and continues to run in corner of dip while fish are treated.
I use Methyl-blue (a 5% mix. I add several drops to the 1 gal dip container until the solution is deep blue).
3) When I get the fish, I do the following before dipping:
A) - float bag in container of salt water (not same container as dip or q-tank) for 15 min.s to adjust temp to 77F.
B) open bag and pour contents into a hard plastic container.
C) I add salt water (ph=8.0-8.2, alk=9.8, temp=77F) to the plastic container with shipping water gradually, over 30 min.s, until I've tripled the original shipping volume (this is an attempt to slowly adjust the shipping water's PH to 2/3 of the way to PH of 8.0.
<I take it these are "local" purchases... some longer time/hauls might call for not mixing the shipping water... due to nitrogenous wastes concentration, lowered pH in this water... and consequent burns with adding the new to it>
4) I begin the dip:
I use a small plastic container to scoop the fish out of the container in step#3 instead of a net (minimize stress)
and attempt to drain most of the water from container used to scoop the fish before adding the fish to the dip mix. The fish seem to tolerate the dip well - they may exhibit some rapid movement initially, but continue to swim around throughout the dip - no jumping.
I run the dip for up to 20 min.s (to eliminate Brooklynella, which I've heard requires a 15 min dip).
5) I move the fish from the dip to the quarantine tank. Here's where the problem begins: The fish sink to bottom, with rapid gill movement, but lethargic fish activity. I had a cinnamon clown that died 1 day later (never recovered from the lethargy) and it had several pinhead sized sores on its body (looked like the flesh had 'popped' under the scales).
There were NO sores on the fins. Another angel (keyhole), died within 1 hour of being placed in the q-tank (no visible sores, but it had rapid gill movement/lethargy). Another Lemonpeel angel died within 4 days - after it recovered from its lethargy, it appeared to have problems with its swim bladder - it always pointed almost straight up toward the surface. It also have very rapid gill movement.
<Mmm, strange... all of your protocol, procedure looks very sharp... I might well lower the spg in your quarantine system initially (to the upper "teens"... add extra aeration there, limit light intensity, and possibly add a hexose simple sugar (about a teaspoon per five gallons)... the last an old-timer, now "Vital" treatment. Otherwise, I'd be looking for better suppliers of your livestock. Bob Fenner>

Puffer problems
Thanks so much, Anthony! How long should I leave my puffer in the Formalin dip? 
<simply for the duration of your normal FW dip... 10-15 minutes is long but recommended in this case (I agree with your decision)>
Also, can you tell me why Bob's book recommends copper for puffers?
<indeed... as aquarists we all have different perspectives and often a recommendation must be made at times on a case by case basis. I would agree that puffers are VERY hardy among scaleless fishes and for a common white spot infection (Crypt) copper may be short and sweet and tolerable. However, since you have not mentioned clear white spots and have informed us that you are seeing blotches and resistance to long FW baths... that tells me that the possible parasite is deep enough in the flesh (to resist FW alone) that to get enough copper in the system to kill the fish might very well kill the puffer first.>
Karen
<Ultimately, my best advice dear is to put the puffer in a bare bottomed QT tank for 4 weeks with more FW dips and short and long Formalin baths. Best regards, Anthony>

Dipping New Arrivals
Good morning,
I have a fish and some Macroalgae arriving this morning from FFE and I have a couple of quick questions. Should I FW dip the fish upon arrival or just put him in the QT right away since he's been stressed and traveling all night?
<Quarantine>
Also, is it possible to FW dip Macroalgae for a few minutes?
<Not sure if it can be done, but I wouldn't. Little to no threat of pathogens.>
Will FW harm the algae or is it better to just swish it a little in saltwater?
<I would do neither. Just acclimate and then place Caulerpa into your system while discarding the bag water.>
Thank you, Chip
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Dips help
bob, I've read your article on fresh water dips and maybe I'm such a novice because it seemed way over my head.
<Mmm, as you are obviously a reader/writer of English, and intelligent, this is a failing on my part. The work/s are intended for general audiences of a wide reading and understanding level. Let's see where the lack is>
I have a 30 gallon tank with a small gold stripe Maroon clown and small coral beauty.
<Yikes... this system is a bit small for these fishes... the Maroon may prove too much for the Dwarf Angel here>
I also had a royal Gramma for about 6 months that died last week, kind of out of the blue, and about a week after I added the angel and two hermits. Upon review of the Gramma before burial I could not see any physical oddities.
<Okay>
could the angel or crabs have brought an unwanted present?
<Possibly. Perhaps just "stress" proved too much... too much disparate, negatively interacting life in too small a space>
also, two weeks before his demise I raised the ph via buffer from 8.0 to 8.3 following the directions on the product.
salinity was about 1018 - 1019
temp around 75
<Mmm, I would raise your spg to more like natural seawater (1.025) over time>
subsequently I added 15lbs of live rock a couple attached a protein skimmer, and done 2 -15% water changes
<The skimmer and live rock will help, definitely>
now the clown is acting weird, not really eating the last two days or as perky as in the past. he was the first fish and had him since September. Though there are no white spots anywhere, I think I notice some "velvety" substance on his body - but I could be hallucinating too.
Hence, I thought just for prevention I would investigate dipping the clown. I have no quarantine tank and never dipped a fish before.
<I see>
if I read your procedure correctly, can I simply put the clown in a bucket of fresh dechlorinated tap water at or slightly above the tank temp for a couple minutes. with careful observation?
how can I make sure the ph is the same?
<Use baking soda to elevate the pH, make the dip/bath longer, several minutes if possible>
I was contemplating copper, but after reading your materials, understand it kill the rock is just purchased.
thanks for anything.
<Let's keep discussing your situation, studying until you are comfortable with your course of actions. Bob Fenner>

Re: dips help
thanks for responding so soon,
> <Yikes... this system is a bit small for these fishes... the Maroon may prove too much for the Dwarf Angel here>
though he did nose the angel around a bit at the beginning the clown is really quite little and docile. also I've tried to create enuf hiding places and swim throughs for the angel.
> <Mmm, I would raise your spg to more like natural seawater (1.025) over >
time>
I've never had the salinity that high, I was worried it was even too high.
<Let's keep discussing your situation, studying until you are comfortable with your course of actions. Bob Fenner>
Do you see any problem with waiting a couple days to see if anything changes, or should I just try a dip. (don't worry no liability to you).
<A good idea. Best to be patient>
Maybe he's just bored with the food - flakes and angel veggie formula cubes.
In the meantime I'll try to bring up the salinity a bit. I also have an external charcoal filter and airstone going all the time. I could add a power head if you think that would help.
<And do read here re others experiences with vitamins and other nutritive supplements: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrdisf.htm
Bob Fenner>

Update: Dips Help
have now done 2, 20% water changes, as water tests revealed slightly elevated ammonia. last night the little guy looked better a little more active and had some dinner, this morning he ate again but did reveal some white spots on his body. (2d change). local pet shop who did the water tests suggested 2 hour bath for clown and tang with mix of quick cure and Furacyn. my reading of your comments including clown articles is that you dislike chemicals. what do you think ? stay with water changes?
salinity 1018 temp 78
<Worth trying, doing both. Bob Fenner>

Sterilization & Freshwater Dips
Bob,
<Steven Pro in this evening.>
I have a few more questions on sterilizations and dips:
1) How much sodium thiosulfate is needed to neutralize bleach that is in a tap water solution ( 1 cup of bleach ( the bleach is a 6% sodium hypochlorite solution - 'Ultra Clorox regular bleach') per gallon of tapwater). (I would like to use the bleach to 'sterilize' quarantine tanks after they've been used.)
<First drain out the bleach and water solution. Then add tapwater and four times the recommended amount of De-Chlor should do it.>
2) Can a fresh water dip be made less 'shocking' to the fish by making it slightly saline (say 1.008 SG?) while still retaining the beneficial parasite killing effect of the dip?
<Not really. Freshwater dips are not that shocking if performed properly. They are just shocking to the owners.>
If so, what is the highest SG that can be used - and how long should the dip be? Are there other things that can be done to the FW dip to make it less shocking to the fish while retaining its beneficial qualities (other than adjusting ph and temp)?
<For the above questions, see the previous answer.>
Do you know of any aquaculture research into the effective kill rate of varying SG's/durations against the common saltwater fish disease/pathogens?
<I have several excellent works on marine fish diseases, but they have conflicting times listed.
Andrews, Dr. Chris, Adrian Exell, and Dr. Neville Carrington. 1988. The Manual of Fish Health. Blacksburg, VA: Tetra Press.
Bassleer, Gerald. 1996. Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish: Causes, Symptoms, Treatment. Westmeerbeek, Belgium: Bassleer Biofish.
Gratzek, Dr. John B., Dr. Richard E. Wolke, Dr. Emmett B. Shotts Jr., Dr. Donald Dawe, and George C. Blasiola. 1992. Aquariology: Fish Diseases & Water Chemistry. Blacksburg, VA: Tetra Press.
Untergasser, Dieter. 1989. Handbook of Fish Diseases. Neptune, NJ: TFH Publications.
The above are all good books.>
3) When receiving fish from a mail-order company that does NOT use an ammonia neutralizer in its shipping water, should a person add some to the shipping water immediately after opening the bag, or would this be harder on the fish than NOT adding ammonia neutralizer. (I'm using an ammonia neutralizer that does NOT affect the pH). I'm assuming that opening the bag raises the PH in the water, making any ammonia in it much more toxic.
<Read here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm>
4) same question as #3, except in this case, its for invertebrates.
<Same as above with this added reading http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimcoralslight.htm>
5) where can I find a definitive list of maximum recommended FW dip durations for the general species of marine fish sold in the trade?
<I do not know of one source complying them all.>
(I know some species can't tolerate a 10 minute dip, but other than a few warnings in your FAQs on specific species, I've never seen a definitive list).
<No set number will or could be your guide. You must observe the fish closely to signs of problems regardless of species.>
6) Lastly, when receiving mail order fish, is it beneficial to fish get the fish to recover from the shipping process prior to doing the Fw dip (i.e., temp acclimate them, then slowly adjust their PH/salinity to their
quarantine parameters over 30 minutes, and then put them in the quarantine tank for several days to allow them to stabilize before giving them a FW dip. Then put them in the FW dip and move them to a new quarantine tank)?
<Put them in the quarantine tank first then dip upon transfer.>
If so, how many days should the fish be given before giving them the FW dip. (This 'recovery period' seems reasonable to me, but I've never seen anyone mention it).
<Standard to wait at least two weeks before moving the fish with four being better. You can dip as part of a treatment program the next day.>
I realize I'm hitting you with a lot of questions on dips, but I'm trying to come up with the best acclimation/receiving process possible.
Thanks!
<One final thought. Any fish that does not make it through a FW dip was probably not going to make it anyhow. -Steven Pro>